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| 00:43.42 | LeviHome | Maquis: Sure it's gentoo and not some flaky hardware? |
| 01:06.11 | Maquis | LeviHome: it could be flaky hardware... |
| 01:06.17 | Maquis | my laptop is 2.5 years old... |
| 01:06.39 | LeviHome | You could probably run some tests on your memory and hard drive. |
| 01:07.21 | tene | omgmemtest! |
| 01:07.51 | Maquis | LeviHome: i have a memtest86 cd... |
| 01:07.58 | Maquis | what would i use for hard drive? |
| 01:09.03 | tene | Maquis: I usually use a set of magnetized platters for a hard drive... |
| 01:09.06 | tene | >.> |
| 01:09.07 | tene | <.< |
| 01:09.33 | LeviHome | Maquis: Probably your fs's fsck tool. |
| 01:11.05 | LeviHome | Maquis: If you use ext2/3: e2fsck -c -c -C /dev/hda1 ---OR--- e2fsck -c -c -C -y /dev/hda1 (This answers yes to all questions, so it is sure to finish by itself.) |
| 01:42.39 | Maquis | LeviHome: thanks :) |
| 01:42.57 | Maquis | LeviHome: i'm assuming i have to boot a certain way to do that? |
| 01:43.34 | LeviHome | You have to not have your partitions mounted, so probably from a rescue CD or a livecd distro or something. |
| 01:44.41 | Maquis | mmmk |
| 01:44.42 | Maquis | :) |
| 01:44.44 | Maquis | sounds good |
| 01:46.22 | Maquis | thanks a ton! |
| 01:47.31 | Maquis | haha |
| 01:47.35 | Maquis | userfriendly.org |
| 01:48.45 | LeviHome | You're welcome. :) |
| 01:58.06 | goozbach | that's a good UF |
| 01:58.16 | goozbach | it's been kinda sucky as of late |
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| 02:13.04 | findlay | ~lart Manti Telephone |
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| 02:59.08 | mrpull | no action tonight? |
| 03:00.45 | findlay | none |
| 03:10.08 | brailsmt_ | anyone know of a good XML validation tool? |
| 03:11.22 | mheath | Has anyone here built uclibc before? |
| 03:13.15 | findlay | no, no, and no |
| 03:13.22 | findlay | sorry |
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| 03:17.26 | stuporglue | Anyone know how to add a network interface? (gentoo, if it matters) |
| 03:18.04 | tensai | mheath: I bet levi has |
| 03:18.24 | Maquis | stuporglue: i think i've done it, but i don't remember how... |
| 03:18.37 | Maquis | do you want to explain a bit more of what you're looking for |
| 03:18.38 | Maquis | ? |
| 03:18.38 | brailsmt_ | stuporglue: yeah, copy /etc/init.d/net.eth0 to net.XYZ |
| 03:18.51 | brailsmt_ | then edit the details |
| 03:18.58 | Maquis | that works |
| 03:19.09 | brailsmt_ | and then /etc/init.d/net.XYZ start |
| 03:19.33 | tensai | brailsmt_: the only one that comes to mind is xsltproc. it does a bit more than validate xml though. |
| 03:19.46 | tensai | I haven't done xml stuff in a long time |
| 03:20.00 | brailsmt_ | lets see you are also going to need to add network interface configuration to /etc/<someting-or-other> |
| 03:20.50 | brailsmt_ | stuporglue: /etc/conf.d/net |
| 03:21.16 | brailsmt_ | you will need to add the interface configuration (DHCP, etc) to iface_XYZ |
| 03:21.33 | stuporglue | I added ath0 to conf.d/net, and copied net.eth0 to net.ath0, but it doesn't start up |
| 03:21.36 | brailsmt_ | again just copy the lines from iface_eth0 and modify |
| 03:21.58 | brailsmt_ | stuporglue: what error messages do you get? |
| 03:22.07 | stuporglue | just [!!] |
| 03:22.36 | brailsmt_ | did you check the logs in /var/log? |
| 03:22.49 | stuporglue | /var/log/messages says " dhcpStart: ioctl SIOCGIFHWADDR: No such device" |
| 03:23.08 | brailsmt_ | try to bring it up then do an 'ls -ltr' and look at the most recently changed log file... (the one on the bottom) |
| 03:23.30 | brailsmt_ | stuporglue: do you have the right modules loaded? |
| 03:23.44 | tensai | does ifconfig -a show ath0? |
| 03:24.42 | stuporglue | Well, I think so. I just got a Netgear WG111U, which was released early December. It's a USB wireless card. Supposedly it uses the Atheros chipset, which uses the MadWifi drivers. |
| 03:25.10 | brailsmt_ | stuporglue: do an lsmod and look for the modules you think it needs |
| 03:25.16 | stuporglue | I got the MadWifi drivers built, and followed the instructions step by step from their site, but they don't have any WG111U specific instructions up yet. |
| 03:25.34 | brailsmt_ | you can also do a modprobe -l and look for the right module that needs to be loaded |
| 03:28.14 | brailsmt_ | xmllint |
| 03:29.22 | stuporglue | hrm...I think I've got the right modules loaded. |
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| 03:30.31 | brailsmt_ | stuporglue: then make sure that the interface is listed with ifconfig -a |
| 03:30.42 | stuporglue | nope |
| 03:30.55 | brailsmt_ | then you have module/hw issues |
| 03:31.20 | stuporglue | It should just show up there when the right modules are loaded? |
| 03:32.04 | brailsmt_ | yeah |
| 03:33.11 | stuporglue | thanks |
| 03:33.16 | brailsmt_ | np |
| 03:34.05 | findlay | ~lart Manti Telephone |
| 03:44.29 | LeviHome | Study! |
| 03:44.41 | LeviHome | So quiet here. |
| 03:44.44 | mrpull | rats. study it is. |
| 03:48.41 | goozbach | bah studing |
| 03:48.46 | goozbach | it's for bookworms |
| 03:49.21 | goozbach | and studing abt it as well |
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| 04:30.10 | stuporglue | how does one go about quitting irssi? |
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| 04:33.10 | tene | gah, this is a pain |
| 04:33.13 | tene | random lockups |
| 04:33.26 | tene | I thought that it was hardware, but I replaced my mobo and got the same problem |
| 04:33.33 | tene | and then booted to livecd and no problem |
| 04:33.36 | tene | grr.... |
| 04:36.03 | findlay | tene: I had a simmilar problem recently, it happened to be that the sleep feature was activated to turn on in the BIOS |
| 04:36.22 | tene | I looked for that, but it looked disabled |
| 04:36.28 | findlay | when it activated, the computer froze, (: |
| 04:36.38 | tene | but I'll check again. |
| 04:36.41 | tene | good idea. |
| 04:36.50 | findlay | had to do a hard reboot every time ): |
| 04:36.55 | tene | nodnod |
| 04:36.58 | tene | but |
| 04:37.03 | tene | it's running fine off of this livecd |
| 04:40.59 | xbmodder | hey all! |
| 04:41.05 | tene | heya, xmb. |
| 04:41.08 | tene | xbm |
| 04:42.44 | xbmodder | wasup |
| 04:42.59 | tene | random lockups. |
| 04:43.09 | tene | but they haven't happened while running this livecd |
| 04:43.10 | xbmodder | that sucks |
| 04:43.12 | xbmodder | :( |
| 04:43.22 | xbmodder | bad kernel desu ka? |
| 04:43.31 | goozbach | stuporglue: /quit |
| 04:43.54 | stuporglue | ? |
| 04:44.42 | goozbach | 21:30 < stuporglue> how does one go about quitting irssi? |
| 04:44.49 | stuporglue | ah, :-) thanks |
| 04:45.20 | goozbach | if you have any other questions abt irssi, the online help is really nice |
| 04:45.23 | goozbach | try /help |
| 04:45.32 | goozbach | or /help <command> |
| 04:45.47 | stuporglue | just type /help? |
| 04:45.52 | goozbach | yup |
| 04:45.55 | stuporglue | it doesn't do anything |
| 04:46.04 | xbmodder | or Ctrl+Alt+Del... |
| 04:46.10 | xbmodder | to get out |
| 04:46.25 | goozbach | and window 1 will show the help commad |
| 04:46.35 | goozbach | try /window 1 |
| 04:47.24 | stuporglue | cool. That worked |
| 04:47.27 | goozbach | and it should show the output of the help command |
| 04:47.40 | goozbach | everything in irssi is broken into different windows |
| 04:48.04 | goozbach | you should be able to jump between windows with <CTRL>+# where # is the number of the window you want |
| 04:48.38 | goozbach | ~praise CPAN |
| 04:48.40 | ibot | All hail CPAN! |
| 04:48.45 | xbmodder | goozbach, its Esc then hit window |
| 04:48.48 | xbmodder | ~lart CPAN |
| 04:49.03 | goozbach | often imitated... never duplicated |
| 04:50.01 | goozbach | my bad it's not <CTRL> its <ALT> |
| 04:53.15 | stuporglue | |
| 04:53.24 | stuporglue | I don't think alt+# is working for me |
| 04:53.27 | stuporglue | |
| 04:53.27 | stuporglue | 1 |
| 04:53.33 | stuporglue | or ctrl+# |
| 04:55.43 | goozbach | the escape then number thing seems to work as well |
| 04:55.55 | stuporglue | yeah, esc does |
| 05:02.50 | goozbach | zup fozz? |
| 05:03.06 | goozbach | fozz: you use which templating system on fozzilinymoo.org? |
| 05:03.21 | goozbach | CGI::FastTemplate |
| 05:03.29 | goozbach | or TemplateToolkit |
| 05:03.34 | fozz | Both Template Toolkit and CGI::FastTemplate |
| 05:03.44 | fozz | All the Fozzolog stuff is TT2 |
| 05:03.50 | fozz | Everything else is CGI::FastTemplate. |
| 05:03.55 | fozz | If I had my way, it would all be TT2. |
| 05:04.03 | fozz | Eventually, I guess, it will be. |
| 05:04.17 | goozbach | I've gotten tired of openACS |
| 05:04.37 | fozz | :) |
| 05:04.39 | goozbach | well mostly the fact that aolserver won't build on FC3 |
| 05:04.50 | fozz | ARGH! |
| 05:04.54 | fozz | How come? |
| 05:04.59 | goozbach | no clue |
| 05:05.06 | fozz | That sucks. |
| 05:05.16 | fozz | Also means it won't build under RHEL4. |
| 05:05.22 | goozbach | prob |
| 05:05.24 | goozbach | not |
| 05:05.38 | fozz | You home again this week? |
| 05:05.41 | goozbach | yep |
| 05:06.00 | goozbach | BTW I'm still trying to get through that stack of cd's you lent me. |
| 05:06.10 | fozz | heh heh. Cool. |
| 05:06.20 | fozz | I've got most of the rest on my server here when you're ready. |
| 05:06.41 | goozbach | I've had to choose... scorched3d or Enterprise |
| 05:06.49 | fozz | heh heh. |
| 05:06.49 | goozbach | stupid ATI driver |
| 05:12.22 | goozbach | which cpan package is template toolkit? Apache::Template/ |
| 05:15.16 | goozbach | ahh found it |
| 05:15.21 | goozbach | just Template |
| 05:15.31 | goozbach | ohh it comes with documentation and examples |
| 05:18.40 | xbmodder | is there any program like paint for linux |
| 05:18.54 | goozbach | why use paint |
| 05:18.59 | goozbach | try Gimp |
| 05:19.04 | goozbach | it's mucho better |
| 05:19.21 | goozbach | but if you must... there's a tuxpaint methinks |
| 05:19.24 | xbmodder | cuz it will take * 2 as long to make the same thing |
| 05:23.21 | stuporglue | isn't tuxpaint the kids program? |
| 05:24.41 | stuporglue | exit |
| 05:24.43 | stuporglue | exit |
| 05:24.48 | stuporglue | (sorry) |
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| 05:32.36 | xbmodder | hey SpecialK |
| 05:34.22 | fozz | heh. |
| 05:34.39 | fozz | Speaking of The Gimp... |
| 05:34.42 | fozz | http://www.xmission.com/~fozz/bn1.jpg |
| 05:34.52 | fozz | That's my nephew Ben (16) on Saturday. |
| 05:35.08 | fozz | His step-dad took the picture with Ben's Digital Rebel... |
| 05:35.20 | fozz | and then Ben rubber-stamped-out the power lines in the background with The Gimp. |
| 05:35.54 | goozbach | nice |
| 05:36.41 | fozz | goozbach: Yeah- TT2 comes with a nice HTML manual. |
| 05:36.52 | fozz | And there's an ORA book. |
| 05:37.06 | fozz | http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perltt/ |
| 05:37.31 | goozbach | well I got it installed |
| 05:37.45 | goozbach | I think I'm gonna play with it a little tomorrow |
| 05:37.55 | goozbach | COOL! an interface to DBI |
| 05:38.01 | fozz | Cool. Get good at that and I'll get you a better job. :) |
| 05:38.08 | fozz | Oh yeah. Interfaces to everything. |
| 05:38.20 | fozz | I haven't found a good reason to use the DBI plugin. |
| 05:38.27 | fozz | I use Dumper (Data::Dumper) all the time. |
| 05:38.32 | fozz | And the Date::Manip stuff. |
| 05:38.34 | goozbach | IT's THERE |
| 05:38.40 | goozbach | that should be reason enough |
| 05:38.42 | goozbach | :) |
| 05:39.00 | fozz | Well, see, I usually do all my DBI-related stuff in my Perl handler... and then pass the data to the template. |
| 05:39.06 | goozbach | ahh |
| 05:39.27 | fozz | I guess in my mind there's no reason for the template to touch the database. Seems like a violation of MVC. :) |
| 05:39.41 | goozbach | I'm in aggrement there |
| 05:40.13 | goozbach | wow! this latest Green Day cd roxors |
| 05:40.44 | goozbach | there are three tracks that contain medelys |
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| 05:46.06 | goozbach | ~lart this kamakasi fly for flying into my face |
| 05:49.09 | goozbach | ~praise microwave food |
| 05:49.11 | ibot | All hail microwave food! |
| 05:51.01 | goozbach | amen the savior of all single dudes |
| 05:53.06 | *** part/#utah mrpull (~mrpull@xmjake.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 06:00.24 | goozbach | ~lart undercooked microwave food |
| 06:00.30 | goozbach | bleh |
| 06:01.22 | SpecialK | |lart Maquis_ |
| 06:09.40 | goozbach | well my mind just informed me that it is no longer going to be responsible for any further data |
| 06:09.52 | goozbach | I guess that's my cue to go to bed |
| 06:10.30 | goozbach | me heads to bed to dream about [% stuff %] |
| 06:14.08 | xbmodder | cool |
| 06:14.09 | xbmodder | :) |
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| 07:08.29 | bonez41 | anyone around? |
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| 09:42.08 | findlay | ~praise MLA-LaTeX |
| 09:42.10 | ibot | All hail MLA-LaTeX! |
| 09:43.22 | findlay | goodnight and goodbye #utah. Must turn archimedes off, becaus he is too noisy, and uses unnecessary power |
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| 11:31.39 | Maquis | mornin :) |
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| 14:44.36 | Maquis | stupid bus! |
| 14:44.48 | Maquis | got there 3-4 minutes before it was supposed to arrive.. |
| 14:45.04 | Maquis | decided to walk once it was 20-minutes late |
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| 15:02.46 | Maquis | http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/31/international/middleeast/31cnd-iraq.html?oref=login&hp&ex=1107147600&en=07ea45f072512a3b&ei=5094&partner=homepage |
| 15:12.39 | hans | you want me to sign up for the NYT? |
| 15:12.45 | Maquis | sorry... |
| 15:12.57 | Maquis | i didn't realize you have to sign up to see the article |
| 15:13.02 | Maquis | it's free registration though |
| 15:13.15 | Maquis | it's just an article about the iraqi election |
| 15:13.57 | Maquis | they think they had about 60% voter turnout (US is usually under 65%) |
| 15:14.02 | Maquis | some areas hit 80% |
| 15:14.27 | Maquis | even in the sunni areas, they think they had about 40%... which isn't bad, given that people were told that they'd be killed if they tried to vote |
| 15:14.28 | emcnabb | or get the BUGMENOT plugin for firefox |
| 15:14.39 | emcnabb | then you'll never have to register again |
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| 15:23.38 | ECS | |lart Maquis |
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| 15:31.46 | Maquis | |lart ECS |
| 15:31.48 | Maquis | |lart ECS |
| 15:32.24 | ECS | |lart Maquis |
| 15:32.28 | Maquis | |lart ECS |
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| 15:39.58 | goozbach | |lart comfy beds and warm blankets |
| 15:40.15 | Maquis | goozbach: personally, i like comfy beds and warm blankets |
| 15:40.20 | Maquis | i just don't like getting out of them... |
| 15:40.41 | Maquis | you'd be better off larting cold rooms |
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| 15:41.24 | Maquis | |lart spr |
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| 15:42.16 | goozbach | it's the fact that they made me sleep in |
| 15:42.30 | Maquis | haha |
| 15:42.45 | Maquis | my alarm didn't go off this morning... |
| 15:42.51 | Maquis | but my roommate was up at 3:30 |
| 15:42.58 | goozbach | 3:30 |
| 15:42.59 | Maquis | so, i got up at 4:30 anyways... |
| 15:43.13 | Maquis | i was using xmms-alarm for my alarm... |
| 15:43.22 | Maquis | but X died at some point last night |
| 15:43.25 | goozbach | no jury in the world would convict me |
| 15:43.37 | Maquis | ????? |
| 15:44.09 | goozbach | "ladies and gentemen of the jury the defendant's roommate was awake and making noise at 3:30am" |
| 15:44.17 | goozbach | "I rest my case" |
| 15:44.25 | Maquis | haha |
| 15:44.58 | Maquis | funny thing is, i was the 4th person in the apartment to get up this morning |
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| 15:45.16 | goozbach | that's just sick |
| 15:45.34 | goozbach | sick and wrong |
| 15:45.40 | Maquis | haha |
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| 15:46.40 | Maquis | it's not too bad if you go to bed early sunday night |
| 15:47.10 | goozbach | "Oh crap! I forgot to travel to wherever I'm supposed to be!" |
| 15:47.14 | Maquis | haha |
| 15:47.17 | Maquis | who's gone this week? |
| 15:47.23 | goozbach | lamont |
| 15:47.33 | goozbach | to LA |
| 15:47.35 | Maquis | nobody else? |
| 15:47.35 | brigham | nobody else is home |
| 15:47.44 | goozbach | brigham: right on |
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| 16:00.01 | emcnabb | did you try out the bugmenot plugin? |
| 16:00.36 | Maquis | i actually had already registered for NYTimes.com, and it doesn't ask me to sign in because it remembers my laptop |
| 16:00.47 | emcnabb | well, it works for many sites |
| 16:00.51 | emcnabb | not just NYT |
| 16:00.55 | Maquis | cool stuff... |
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| 16:06.19 | brailsmt | is there a mail client besides evolution that I can use with ximian-connector? |
| 16:06.51 | sjansen | nope |
| 16:07.19 | sjansen | although, IIRC, kmail was developing something equivalent |
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| 16:14.34 | stuporglue | Was it just IBM that had HDs that would stop if they sensed sudden motion/falling? |
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| 16:15.45 | Maquis | i vaguely recall hearing something about a command that can zero out malloced memory, but i'm not seeing it at cppreference.com |
| 16:16.08 | tensai | memset |
| 16:16.12 | Maquis | memset? |
| 16:16.13 | Maquis | ok |
| 16:16.14 | Maquis | thanks :) |
| 16:16.28 | levi | Maquis: That's because it's a C function, not C++. |
| 16:16.28 | *** join/#utah mrpull_ (~mrpull@205.158.184.116) |
| 16:16.39 | levi | Maquis: C++ is above that sort of thing. ;) |
| 16:16.43 | sjansen | friends don't let friends use C++ |
| 16:17.02 | Maquis | levi: cppreference has a section for regular c |
| 16:17.06 | tensai | there's also bzero(). I dunno if it's actually faster. |
| 16:17.25 | tensai | oh, nm. "This function is deprecated ‐‐ use memset in new programs" |
| 16:17.38 | Maquis | is there a better site that focuses more directly on C? i've been using cppreference because i know about it, but i'm always welcome to find out about better references |
| 16:17.38 | tensai | hmm. wonder why I've seen so much code that uses bzero then. |
| 16:18.16 | sjansen | bzero is a BSD thing |
| 16:18.34 | levi | Maquis: When I have a C question, I just pull up my handy K&R book. |
| 16:18.37 | sjansen | and it's one less argument than memset |
| 16:18.48 | levi | Maquis: There's also a really good C FAQ for more troublesome stuff. |
| 16:19.03 | Maquis | levi: my K&R book is in my apartment... and i'm not... :) |
| 16:19.25 | levi | The C++ equivalent of the K&R book weighs a ton and has a zillion pages. The C++ FAQ is an entire gigantic book, too. |
| 16:19.37 | levi | C++ is just waaaaaay too complex for its own good. |
| 16:19.47 | tensai | levi: how big is the lisp book again? |
| 16:20.16 | levi | tensai: The lisp spec is pretty huge, but the core language is much simpler. |
| 16:20.23 | levi | tensai: And it depends on which lisp you speak of. |
| 16:20.37 | levi | tensai: The Scheme spec, for example, is very small. |
| 16:21.05 | sjansen | not to mention that lisp won't eat your lunch, more than can be said for C++ |
| 16:22.26 | hans | I'm less interested in who won't eat my lunch as in who will bring me lunch. |
| 16:22.50 | levi | Some implementations of Common Lisp have no interpreter, they're entirely compiled. Yet they still have the interactive read-eval-print loop. Pretty cool stuff. |
| 16:23.22 | tensai | hans: I made some delicious garlic parmesan french bread on Saturday. Turned into a wonderful ham and cheese sandwich. |
| 16:23.23 | sjansen | give lisp a potato and it will transform it into a world class chef, give c++ a potatoe and it will make cold mashed potatoes |
| 16:23.47 | levi | Mmmmmmm, fresh bread. |
| 16:23.50 | Maquis | sjansen: does C++ eat your lunch on a regular basis? |
| 16:25.21 | hans | tensai: I made a boring loaf but with a touch of rosemary and thyme yesterday. turned out ok except it didn't rise enough so kinda dense. The cool part, though, is I did it with one bowl and no mess (not even on the counter). one dish to clean. |
| 16:25.28 | sjansen | My favorite C++ quote is actually by the creator of C++: "Using C it's easy to shoot yourself in the foot. Using C++, it's much harder, but when you do you blow off your entire leg." |
| 16:26.23 | sjansen | Maquis: It's not that C++ steals my lunch regularily, it's that it waits until an important business lunch or special family reunion to do so. |
| 16:26.25 | levi | hans: It's not real bread if you don't dirty half your dishes and get flour all over the counter! ;) |
| 16:27.01 | hans | I'm about to write up the process. Actually not difficult, but it helps to have a few key tools - e.g. a scale, parchment paper, and some sort of baking stone or tiles. |
| 16:27.04 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@obelix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 16:27.15 | Maquis | sjansen: :) |
| 16:27.32 | levi | hans: All essential bread-baking tools! |
| 16:27.51 | hans | technically, I used some sort of cup thing that holds water, but if it just held water I put it back in the drawer and pretend it isn't dirty. |
| 16:28.11 | tensai | unclean! unclean! |
| 16:28.14 | levi | Right. If water isn't clean, what is? |
| 16:28.26 | hans | precisely. |
| 16:28.33 | hans | probably clener than when I got it out. :) |
| 16:28.35 | tensai | I'll tell you what isn't: sjansen |
| 16:28.38 | brailsmt | is there a cmd line CSS/HTML validator? |
| 16:28.48 | hans | tensai: I heard sjansen eats your lunch |
| 16:29.02 | tensai | I've got plenty of bread. he's more than welcome. |
| 16:29.48 | tensai | I'm planning to make a new brownie recipe when he gets here |
| 16:29.57 | tene | al-jazeera was filming at the tabernacle choir broadcast yesterday morning. |
| 16:30.11 | Maquis | tene: really??? |
| 16:30.16 | Newsome | okay, that's odd |
| 16:30.17 | Maquis | that's got to be interesting... |
| 16:30.26 | Maquis | were you there? |
| 16:30.42 | tene | nope, but my father was |
| 16:30.45 | Maquis | weird |
| 16:30.58 | tene | he's there every broadcast and every practice ;) |
| 16:30.59 | Maquis | was there any particular reason? or was it just random? |
| 16:31.06 | tensai | tene: they let Darth Vader attend choir practice? |
| 16:31.07 | Maquis | is he in the choir? |
| 16:31.49 | tene | yeah, he is |
| 16:32.00 | tene | they're doing a story on the LDS religion, or something like that. |
| 16:32.03 | Maquis | that's cool |
| 16:32.06 | Maquis | hmmm... |
| 16:32.12 | tene | They said that the music was very beautiful. |
| 16:32.14 | *** join/#utah jsmith (~jsmith@pip.drs1.omniture.com) |
| 16:32.18 | Maquis | i wonder what they're going to say about us |
| 16:32.23 | tene | me too |
| 16:32.31 | Maquis | it's kind of a lose-lose situation in certain ways |
| 16:32.55 | Maquis | if they say good things about us, that could be misjudged by people here in the states... |
| 16:33.01 | brailsmt | you are nuts... they are casing the place... |
| 16:33.05 | sjansen | http://test.plug.org/preview/ |
| 16:33.06 | Maquis | if they say bad things about us, that's bad for a lot of other reasons... |
| 16:33.58 | levi | Uh. |
| 16:34.08 | Maquis | hahaha |
| 16:34.28 | Maquis | hans: you're with Redhat??? |
| 16:34.31 | levi | Anyone who would think that Mormons are bad because Al-Jazeera said nice things about them is an idiot, and would think Mormons are bad anyway. |
| 16:35.35 | Maquis | levi: i'm not saying those people would be justified in that opinion |
| 16:35.50 | Maquis | i'm just saying that i'm guessing it would happen... |
| 16:36.10 | sjansen | Most people aren't that stupid. |
| 16:36.26 | Maquis | sjansen: i know a lot of stupid people |
| 16:36.35 | levi | Maquis: I don't think anyone in the States would even hear about Al-Jazeera saying something nice about the Mormons. |
| 16:36.46 | hans | Maquis: those people would also believe I'm in love with redhat. ;-) |
| 16:36.51 | tensai | and all the people who *are* that stupid are too busy fighting over SCO |
| 16:36.56 | Maquis | hans: it says it on the plug site! :) |
| 16:37.05 | levi | We only hear about Al-Jazeera when they report anti-American stuff. |
| 16:37.27 | Maquis | dunno... would be interesting to see what they have to say... |
| 16:37.51 | sjansen | So nobody has any feedback on the new Plug design? |
| 16:38.02 | levi | Would be interesting for YOU to hear, but I guarantee it's not going to make headlines outside of LDS publications. |
| 16:38.30 | levi | sjansen: Where's the new design? |
| 16:38.33 | tene | levi: what about in al-jazeera publications? |
| 16:38.34 | stuporglue | I like the new Plug design. The stories are good too |
| 16:38.47 | hans | aside from the slander, nothing. ;-) |
| 16:38.51 | hans | looks good |
| 16:38.52 | tensai | sjansen: where do old articles end up? |
| 16:38.57 | Maquis | sjansen: i like the design |
| 16:38.59 | Maquis | and the articles |
| 16:39.01 | levi | tene: That would be outside the scope of the discussion. |
| 16:39.06 | hans | I am looking forward to pegging Jayce^ though |
| 16:39.09 | tensai | I don't see an Archives link or anything |
| 16:39.12 | Maquis | (but you failed to pick on emcnabb) |
| 16:39.15 | tene | but isn't that the main focus of the discussion, even? |
| 16:39.33 | sjansen | http://test.plug.org/preview/ |
| 16:39.35 | levi | tene: No. How many Americans pick up Al-Jazeera? |
| 16:39.46 | levi | tene: Not many. Therefore, they only hear about it when it's covered by OUR news. |
| 16:39.57 | *** join/#utah JoshH (~JoshH@firebat.aros.net) |
| 16:40.00 | tene | I know. |
| 16:40.22 | levi | tene: And Al-Jazeera talking about the Mormons is not terribly newsworthy. |
| 16:40.39 | levi | Except possibly to Mormons. |
| 16:40.43 | spr | sjansen, nice job |
| 16:41.09 | levi | sjansen: Ew, that sucks! ;) |
| 16:41.16 | levi | sjansen: No, I like it. Good job. |
| 16:41.39 | sjansen | tensai: still thinking about that |
| 16:41.59 | *** join/#utah alphahawk (~alphahawk@70.56.105.158) |
| 16:42.06 | sjansen | any suggestions? |
| 16:42.16 | hans | /dev/null |
| 16:42.19 | spr | working links to the members pages? |
| 16:43.09 | sjansen | several links are place holders for future features, won't be part of the initial roll out |
| 16:44.25 | sjansen | I could put a general "archive" link in. Or I could put an archive link next to each general topic. |
| 16:44.55 | sjansen | I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible, while still being functional. |
| 16:45.28 | spr | ah, I see. Mailing List and Mailing List Archive should probably work |
| 16:45.28 | tensai | where's the link to activate my UML instance? |
| 16:47.20 | levi | BTW, anyone interested in looking at Lisp as a practical programming language should see this book: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ |
| 16:47.31 | *** join/#utah bigdog_ut (~bigdog_ut@166.70.34.182) |
| 16:47.35 | levi | (Available online in HTML or PDF form, and soon to be published) |
| 16:47.38 | *** part/#utah bigdog_ut (~bigdog_ut@166.70.34.182) |
| 16:50.08 | levi | It's got lots of examples: a simple CD database, a unit test framework, an id3 tag reader, some web programming, and a bunch of other stuff. |
| 17:05.10 | hans | blogged. |
| 17:05.28 | hans | levi, Bradipo, tensai, whoever: what makes focaccia focaccia? |
| 17:10.39 | tensai | hans: it's swimming in grease, it's flat, it's full of air pockets, it's very herby |
| 17:11.00 | levi | I'm not really an expert on focaccia-nature, but I'd guess it would be the flat shape, the wet dough (making large air pockets), and lots of olive oil. |
| 17:11.20 | levi | I don't know if the herbs are essential or not. |
| 17:11.31 | tensai | sure taste yummy though |
| 17:11.35 | levi | Indeed. |
| 17:11.53 | tensai | the stretching with the finger tips also encourages air pockets |
| 17:12.20 | levi | And leaves the nice fingertip divets. |
| 17:12.35 | tensai | the perfect place for olive oil to pool up |
| 17:13.02 | tensai | my mouth felt greasy for a week after I ate that bread |
| 17:13.03 | fozz | Grrrrrrr |
| 17:13.53 | hans | rrrrrG |
| 17:14.57 | fozz | Just had a very, very strange thing happen. |
| 17:15.12 | fozz | Has left me hurt, confused, and a little angry. |
| 17:15.20 | fozz | But mostly confused. |
| 17:15.41 | levi | Did this involve a female? |
| 17:15.48 | fozz | No. :) |
| 17:16.11 | fozz | Iodynamics' first client was a structural engineering and materials testing firm in Logan. |
| 17:16.40 | fozz | They had three Linux boxes acting as firewalls for their three offices. |
| 17:16.50 | fozz | They also had a Linux box runnign samba as a file server in their Logan office. |
| 17:17.03 | goozbach | ~lart those who don't put a NSFW disclaimer on links they post |
| 17:17.26 | fozz | Last week, I logged into their Logan box and tried to ssh to the fileserver to check on things and apply any updates. |
| 17:17.29 | fozz | I coudln't get to the box. |
| 17:17.32 | hans | goozbach: are you talking about sjansen? test.plug.org? :) |
| 17:17.58 | fozz | I was planning on getting nagios set up this next week so I could monitor the file server through the firewall, but I needed to upgrade the firewall first. |
| 17:18.17 | fozz | Anyway- I couldn't get to the box. We called them. They saidm "Everything seems fine to us." |
| 17:18.44 | fozz | I tried to make arrangements to go check things out on Saturday- but they said nobody would be around to let me in. |
| 17:19.06 | fozz | This morning, We called again. They said, "Everything's working great. We'll ask our engineers if they know anything." |
| 17:19.20 | fozz | I did an nmap of their network from the firewall. |
| 17:19.29 | fozz | Saw a new box on their network with a LOT of open ports. |
| 17:19.46 | fozz | I did a smbclient to connect to it. Discovered it's a Windows 2003 Small Business Server. |
| 17:20.03 | fozz | It has the same name as the Linux box I couldn't connect to. |
| 17:20.16 | levi | Heh. |
| 17:20.27 | fozz | I had my partner call one of the principals directly. |
| 17:20.42 | fozz | They siad one of the hard drives died on the Linux file server early last week. |
| 17:20.44 | fozz | They never called us. |
| 17:20.58 | fozz | They took the box to a local hardware guy to recover the data. |
| 17:21.01 | fozz | Days went by. |
| 17:21.10 | fozz | I'm guessing he said, "Can't do it." |
| 17:21.15 | fozz | They bougth a new Windows server from him. |
| 17:21.48 | fozz | So, a file server we manage has a problem. They didn't call us. |
| 17:22.32 | fozz | Then, when we check on things and try to hold up our end of our service agreement by trying ot get access to the box to check on things, they evade and lie to us about it. |
| 17:23.14 | fozz | And then, to top it all off, they probably spent 2-3 thousand on a new server... unecessarily. |
| 17:23.30 | erj | all for a bad hard drive |
| 17:23.34 | fozz | And now they're BACK on the Microsoft treadmill... |
| 17:23.36 | levi | So this is exactly like a woman problem, but with a company instead. |
| 17:23.43 | erj | hehe |
| 17:23.47 | fozz | Where Iodynamics kept them off the treadmill for close to 6 years. |
| 17:23.54 | fozz | Yeah- pretty much. |
| 17:24.20 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (~von@user-225.kingsley2.fiber.net) |
| 17:24.22 | fozz | Yeah-the old samba server had mirrored drives, so getting it back up and running woudl have been trivial. |
| 17:24.43 | vontrapp | ~lart medical expenses |
| 17:24.53 | vontrapp | that was lame |
| 17:24.59 | vontrapp | |lart medical expenses |
| 17:26.19 | hans | fozz: don't they need that data? |
| 17:27.54 | erj | fozz so what are you going to do with your contract with them? |
| 17:28.10 | erj | I thin kit would be tough to deal with an untruthful company. |
| 17:28.21 | fozz | hans: I would think so. |
| 17:28.31 | *** join/#utah spiderbiter (~spiderbit@38.119.177.194) |
| 17:28.40 | fozz | erj: That's exactly how I feel. We've had a close relationship with tme for years... so this is really odd. |
| 17:29.05 | hans | assuming that's the case, tell them they can have their data back and you can copy the stuff off the new server back on it. |
| 17:29.06 | erj | maybe there is an M$ insider they hired who swayed the management |
| 17:29.29 | hans | the price, get rid of the server (or put linux on it and let it do something else) |
| 17:29.44 | fozz | This local hardware guy they're dealing with used to be someone we dealt with a lot... |
| 17:29.51 | fozz | but our relationship soured. |
| 17:30.05 | hans | maybe they can still take it back to the moron. what would be really interesting is if they left the old server with that guy and they're paranoid about business secrets |
| 17:30.07 | fozz | He has tried to take over one of our clients before. |
| 17:30.43 | fozz | He's a complete Windows guy. |
| 17:30.52 | hans | tell them about the mirrored drive and how it's trivial to get their data, and let them draw conclusions from that. |
| 17:31.06 | hans | but they probably still have the box, so you can't have that fun probably. :) |
| 17:32.57 | goozbach | happy bubblewrap appreciation day |
| 17:33.15 | *** join/#utah xilch|w (~xilch@66.239.17.228.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 17:38.25 | hans | http://www.virtual-bubblewrap.com/popnow3.shtml |
| 17:50.51 | vontrapp | is there a better way to do this: |
| 17:51.12 | vontrapp | create temporary table temp select x from a; |
| 17:51.21 | vontrapp | insert into temp select y as x from b; |
| 17:51.30 | vontrapp | select x from temp; |
| 17:52.36 | vontrapp | i want one record for each x in a and one for each y in b |
| 17:52.46 | vontrapp | in the same column |
| 17:53.06 | tensai | select x from a union select y from b; ? |
| 17:54.56 | vontrapp | it's giving me a syntax error |
| 17:55.07 | vontrapp | but as far as i can tell the syntax is right |
| 17:55.25 | vontrapp | "syntax error near 'union select ...'" |
| 17:57.28 | tensai | the syntax is correct. whether your database supports it or not is another matter. |
| 18:00.51 | vontrapp | ok, yeah, it was version 3.23.53 |
| 18:00.57 | Bradipo | hans: There are many types of focaccia. I think the style is what makes it focaccia. |
| 18:01.10 | Bradipo | Flat, usually very basic. |
| 18:01.24 | vontrapp | does that version still have union? is the syntax just different? |
| 18:01.46 | Bradipo | When I was in Italy, I only had a few different types of focaccia. |
| 18:02.17 | Bradipo | focaccia with rosemary, oil and salt (bigger granules than table salt, but not rock salt). |
| 18:02.52 | Bradipo | focaccia with tomatoes on top, either a simple sauce (no spices usually) and salt. |
| 18:03.02 | Bradipo | Some focaccia has olives (green and black). |
| 18:16.02 | hans | |lart manzanas que se deshazen |
| 18:16.12 | Maquis | ??? |
| 18:19.56 | scott_ | what do you guys think is the best bluetooth mouse? I like the microsoft one that comes with the optical desktop, since it's scroll wheel is really smooth, but I don't really need the wireless keyboard and I'm wondering if there's a good one I've missed... |
| 18:21.13 | Jayce^ | logitech's MX series |
| 18:21.28 | Jayce^ | the microsoft ones have lousy range, and latency |
| 18:26.07 | Maquis | vontrapp: why mouth numb? |
| 18:27.10 | vontrapp | got a root canal today |
| 18:27.35 | Maquis | ick! |
| 18:28.09 | levi | Yuck. |
| 18:28.18 | levi | Well, numb is better than pain. |
| 18:28.22 | vontrapp | the sad thing is, the expense was the most painful part |
| 18:28.35 | levi | Which is because you're numb. |
| 18:28.47 | Maquis | yeah... |
| 18:29.32 | vontrapp | well, i dunno, the expense was still more painful than the aching before from the need of a root canal |
| 18:30.04 | vontrapp | everythings all tingly now, so i guess i'll find out pretty soon |
| 18:30.22 | levi | I think having a drill go through your tooth would be rather painful without numbing. |
| 18:30.42 | vontrapp | oh, well if you mean like that, then yeah |
| 18:31.13 | levi | That would have rivaled the pocketbook pain, I would think. |
| 18:31.56 | Jayce^ | oh, it is.. |
| 18:31.57 | levi | Just drilling out a cavity is painful enough without the numbing shot. |
| 18:32.01 | *** join/#utah linuxalien (~zorb@defiant.star-travel.org) |
| 18:32.17 | levi | Actually drilling through the root... that's not something I want to think about. |
| 18:32.26 | Jayce^ | worst pain ever... getting a cavity done in brasil (no numbing).. they tagged into the nerves.. |
| 18:32.27 | Jayce^ | gahhh |
| 18:32.39 | vontrapp | *cringe* |
| 18:33.43 | Jayce^ | not just some nick either.. deep. |
| 18:38.01 | Maquis | ouch |
| 18:38.11 | hans | my teeth hurt just thinking of that |
| 18:38.54 | Jayce^ | felt roughly like having jumper cables on your molars, while getting repeatedly hit with a sledgehammer |
| 18:39.07 | Jayce^ | yeah, along those lines |
| 18:39.21 | hans | last year the dentist had to numb me like five times and _still_ I wasn't numb. Finally we just agreed I'd grin and bear it and he'd hurry. |
| 18:39.25 | hans | I was partially numbed, but still. |
| 18:39.29 | Maquis | ick |
| 18:39.38 | Maquis | Jayce^: nice description... |
| 18:39.49 | *** join/#utah RyanB1 (~ryan@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 18:39.52 | vontrapp | yeah, the desc definately fits |
| 18:40.03 | vontrapp | i felt a milder version of that with my wisdom teeth |
| 18:40.13 | Maquis | were you not numbed for that? |
| 18:40.19 | goozbach | hans: if I ever got to that point I'd say: "put me under" |
| 18:40.20 | Maquis | i was out cold when they took mine out... |
| 18:40.29 | levi | I had them put me under for my wisdom teeth. |
| 18:40.46 | vontrapp | Maquis: would have died for sure if i wasn't |
| 18:40.54 | hans | goozbach: nah, he was mostly there (it was just the deep part that wasn't numb) and it didn't really hurt all that much |
| 18:41.04 | hans | better to just get it over with than keep getting those stupid shots |
| 18:41.11 | Maquis | vontrapp: good |
| 18:41.16 | vontrapp | yeah, i got stuck three times today |
| 18:41.31 | Jayce^ | my wisdom teeth went great, but when I was ~ 11, I had to get some other teeth pulled, woke up while they were doing it... that gave nightmares for a while |
| 18:41.41 | *** join/#utah joshc (~josh@jcoates.org) |
| 18:41.52 | Jayce^ | apparently that's pretty widespread, happens pretty often. |
| 18:41.55 | Maquis | ack! |
| 18:41.58 | Maquis | don't tell me that! |
| 18:42.23 | vontrapp | my one wisdom tooth, in fact the one that cause the problem in the tooth worked on today, was soo bad that halfway through i had the dentist give me another shot, and still it hurt |
| 18:42.27 | hans | Maquis: it's sure to happen to you. |
| 18:42.39 | Maquis | hans: thanks... |
| 18:42.48 | vontrapp | but then afterwards i sure felt the after affects of a sledgehammer |
| 18:43.37 | Jayce^ | yeah, that time I woke up when they had pliers in my mouth, and were jerking my head back and forth.. |
| 18:44.22 | RyanB1 | I remember that too... the pliers... but I think my memory of the dentist having his feet up on either side of my head while pulling the tooth out may be a false memory. |
| 18:44.37 | *** topic/#utah by Jayce^ -> The source for OSS focused communication in Utah. Check out sllug.org, plug.org, uug.byu.edu, etc. | See www.oalug.com for info on the Feb 5 ACM/OALUG installfest | Plug DNS change today, be warned. |
| 18:44.40 | vontrapp | i was just awake for the whole jerking, and the tooth-snapping and breaking and prying and twisting |
| 18:45.33 | hans | my wisdom teeth came out without problem. The annoying thing was that the bug wouldn't start and I had to crawl under it and bang on the solenoid. I wasn't exactly in the mood for that. |
| 18:45.52 | *** join/#utah linuxalien (~zorb@defiant.star-travel.org) |
| 18:45.56 | *** join/#utah bucky (~bucky@67-50-102-63.bras01.mob.ut.frontiernet.net) |
| 18:45.59 | vontrapp | haha |
| 18:46.16 | vontrapp | but wasn't it the suburban that had that problem? |
| 18:46.50 | Maquis | hans: from? |
| 18:46.53 | hans | no, the blue bug did too |
| 18:47.10 | hans | a user after I explained why she shouldn't disable the openvpn virtual network adapter. |
| 18:47.16 | Maquis | i don't remember the trip home from wisdom teeth... |
| 18:47.31 | tene | my wisdom teeth are coming in right now. |
| 18:47.45 | Maquis | tene: don't wake up while they pull them out :) |
| 18:47.48 | tene | I have no idea if I need to have them removed or not. |
| 18:47.50 | joshc | grasshopper == allusion to kung fu 1970's tv show |
| 18:47.52 | hans | I was all alone. Finally got the thing started and drove home, then watched bill nye and the incredible hulk marathon the rest of the day |
| 18:48.04 | Jayce^ | tene, probably will |
| 18:48.09 | Maquis | hans: are you allowed to drive under those circumstances? |
| 18:48.09 | hans | joshc: well she's definitely of the 70s generation |
| 18:48.31 | joshc | kung fu was a very cool show btw |
| 18:48.41 | hans | local anesthetic only, I don't think there's any restrictions. But you don't exactly feel at the top of your game and I wouldn't suggest it to anyone. |
| 18:49.09 | Maquis | yeah... |
| 18:49.27 | joshc | so why is it that i'm turned off when i see EJB java XML blah blah on resumes? |
| 18:49.30 | vontrapp | i know i could not have driven after mine, the stuff was just wearing off as i was leaving |
| 18:49.39 | Maquis | i couldn't've |
| 18:49.40 | hans | people should be seeing the vpn change soon now |
| 18:49.40 | Jayce^ | joshc, because you've become a realist? |
| 18:49.41 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 18:49.44 | Maquis | anyway, class over |
| 18:49.48 | joshc | lol |
| 18:49.49 | Maquis | back in a few seconds |
| 18:50.15 | joshc | in my mind i read "i'm an expert at layers of slow, expensive crap" |
| 18:50.34 | joshc | and "i actually have no idea how to do anything w/o these slow, expensive layers of crap" |
| 18:50.40 | Jayce^ | and group discussions that never create actual products |
| 18:51.16 | joshc | i dunno, maybe i'm just biggoted and need to get over it. |
| 18:51.28 | RyanB1 | arent well |
| 18:51.48 | sjansen | joshc: in my experience you're not |
| 18:52.00 | Jayce^ | don't get over it! :) |
| 18:52.02 | sjansen | Servlets, used wisely, can be very cool. |
| 18:52.06 | RyanB1 | should've come out 'we all'... duh. |
| 18:52.12 | tene | joshc: there's always the "I really have no skills and just put a lot of acronyms on my resume to try to impress you" interpretation. |
| 18:52.17 | joshc | lol - maybe we're both biggoted then.. ;-) |
| 18:52.22 | sjansen | EJB everything associated with it is a useless steaming pile of crap. |
| 18:52.33 | Jayce^ | joshc, there is no 'maybe' when discussing bigotry and sjansen |
| 18:52.37 | Jayce^ | they are synonyms |
| 18:52.37 | joshc | haha |
| 18:52.43 | RyanB1 | we had an applicant tell us in an interview that she was an expert in not only C and C++, but C+++, too. |
| 18:52.50 | levi | Oh my. |
| 18:52.53 | emcnabb | awesome |
| 18:52.59 | Jayce^ | that must be even *better* |
| 18:52.59 | joshc | that's super. |
| 18:53.00 | hans | don't be too hard on people - those are industry buzzwords and a resume is all about getting a job. |
| 18:53.09 | RyanB1 | needless to say, she didn't get the hire. |
| 18:53.21 | joshc | i mostly look at where people have worked, and what there position was |
| 18:53.22 | hans | just because the industry as a whole doesn't have a clue doesn't |
| 18:53.24 | joshc | more than anything else |
| 18:53.26 | sjansen | I've only participated in the interviewing process once, but it killed all faith in resumes. |
| 18:53.41 | levi | Just think, if they actually knew all about EJB, Java, and XML... they'd have an amazing capacity for memorization of extensive libraries. |
| 18:53.45 | sjansen | So many people that looked good on paper were full of it in person. |
| 18:53.52 | joshc | (un)fortunately i've been in hundreds, and hundreds of interviews. |
| 18:53.54 | hans | er, forget the doesn't. What's best though is finding people who don't care and would rather _not_ work with those even if they know them, or know how to tailor their resumes (and know how to read your mind to know you're not looking for buzzwords) |
| 18:54.32 | joshc | and you can tell if someone is bad after 1 question. |
| 18:54.38 | joshc | but telling if someone is good takes a while |
| 18:55.24 | joshc | i mostly watch to see if they make stuff up when they dont know the answer |
| 18:55.32 | RyanB1 | at a different job, we hired someone who was a former cop, and didn't have specific experience in what we were looking for because we knew he was someone we could work with. he turned out great for the position. |
| 18:55.32 | joshc | i have a lot of respect for people that say "i dont know." |
| 18:55.49 | hans | I don't know. |
| 18:55.54 | joshc | lol |
| 18:56.04 | joshc | this is a funny place |
| 18:56.13 | sjansen | I know everything! |
| 18:56.35 | joshc | what kind of interview questions do you guys ask? |
| 18:56.55 | emcnabb | what is the 73rd digit in pi |
| 18:56.58 | hans | seriously, though, that reminds me of my CAEDM interview. That's about what it consisted of: "How would you do X?" "I'm not sure. I'd start by looking at the manpages and documentation." If I knew I'd say how I did it in redhat, since I'd never touched an HPUX box. |
| 18:56.58 | vontrapp | would you have even more respect if they answered, like yoda, "the answer i know not" |
| 18:57.27 | joshc | only if they sounded like miss piggy |
| 18:57.33 | joshc | when they said it |
| 18:57.37 | hans | grover |
| 18:57.46 | hans | much more like grover than mp |
| 18:57.50 | joshc | yeah, i guess it is kind of grover like |
| 18:58.35 | sjansen | a train leaves cincinatti at 7:30pm going 467890 knots/week with 5 million micro gallons deisel fuel and a 250 pound enginerr driving... |
| 18:58.40 | Jayce^ | yeah, I loved it when they asked me "tough" perl questions, that were easy for me.. |
| 18:58.42 | Jayce^ | here |
| 18:58.42 | RyanB1 | root canals were much more painful than wisdom teeth extraction. |
| 18:59.12 | vontrapp | RyanB1: not mine |
| 18:59.13 | jsmith | RyanB1: Not mine either. |
| 18:59.31 | RyanB1 | guess I was just lucky |
| 18:59.36 | *** join/#utah linuxalien (~zorb@defiant.star-travel.org) |
| 18:59.38 | vontrapp | sjansen: there's no question in there |
| 19:00.08 | vontrapp | nothing to solve |
| 19:00.34 | RyanB1 | the answer is 42. |
| 19:00.38 | sjansen | vontrapp: I got bored and walked off. |
| 19:00.41 | sjansen | RyanB1: correct! |
| 19:00.58 | hans | I think I would ask a question to which the answer was 42, and look for the smile |
| 19:01.43 | tene | hehe |
| 19:01.43 | joshc | hehe - that's actually not a bad question |
| 19:01.43 | hans | no smile, no job |
| 19:01.43 | vontrapp | haha |
| 19:01.43 | joshc | it's a 'are you a true nerd' question |
| 19:01.44 | joshc | which, of course, you want to hire hardcore nerds - or at least folks that aspire to such. |
| 19:01.45 | sjansen | Personally, I like questions like "how do you use computers for fun?" |
| 19:01.54 | RyanB1 | ooh, I score extra points on that one. |
| 19:01.55 | joshc | that's a good one. |
| 19:01.57 | vontrapp | for larting sjansen! |
| 19:02.00 | vontrapp | |lart sjansen |
| 19:02.12 | joshc | um...nice lart |
| 19:02.22 | hans | sjansen uses vaseline? |
| 19:02.30 | hans | for his hair? |
| 19:02.38 | sjansen | Try to find people that go hope and teach themselves X because its cool or might someday be useful at work. |
| 19:02.38 | hans | oh I know, for the beard. |
| 19:02.41 | vontrapp | hans, no, his beard |
| 19:02.50 | vontrapp | gah, beat me |
| 19:02.59 | joshc | the problem is even getting to the point where questions like that are useful |
| 19:03.11 | sjansen | heh |
| 19:03.12 | joshc | because if they look at you funny when you ask "what's a semaphore?" |
| 19:03.21 | joshc | then there is no sense in asking anything else. |
| 19:03.44 | joshc | or "explain virtual memory" or "whats the difference between udp and tcp" |
| 19:03.44 | hans | isn't that one of those flag things? something to do with boyscouts... ;-0 |
| 19:03.48 | joshc | lol |
| 19:03.56 | joshc | that'd be a killer answer..!! |
| 19:03.59 | tene | hey, I know all those things! |
| 19:04.02 | tene | wow. |
| 19:04.16 | *** join/#utah ECS (~ecs@ecs-dell.byu.edu) |
| 19:04.22 | joshc | simple fundamentals are hard to do without. that's what i look for anyway, is a solid grasp of fundamentals. |
| 19:04.42 | ECS | |lart Maquis |
| 19:04.47 | joshc | whats the difference between a process and a thread, what's a void pointer for..blah blah |
| 19:05.15 | Maquis | |lart ECS |
| 19:05.36 | hans | another good one. which books have you acquired recently? |
| 19:05.58 | joshc | you mean which books have you, ahem, "acquired" recently.. |
| 19:06.34 | hans | :) I don't buy half my books. oreilly, work, etc. and if you count books borrowed and reviewed... |
| 19:07.27 | Maquis | |lart emcnabb |
| 19:07.38 | Maquis | |lart emcnabb |
| 19:07.47 | joshc | you know brigham young was named after a family name - the same family that brighams icecream is named after in new england. |
| 19:07.56 | Maquis | brigham? |
| 19:07.57 | brigham | brigham is the Lion of the Lord |
| 19:08.00 | Maquis | maquis? |
| 19:08.01 | brigham | maquis is a budding Linux wizard facing distinct challenges on the path to becoming a grey beard. |
| 19:08.38 | Maquis | ibot? |
| 19:08.38 | brigham | ibot is a silly bot |
| 19:10.22 | ECS | |lart sjansen for mispelling servant. |
| 19:10.45 | tene | ~lart Maquis for me |
| 19:10.52 | tene | |lart Maquis for me |
| 19:10.55 | tene | aww... |
| 19:10.55 | vontrapp | well, this is unfortunate, i can use union in our live db, but not in the test, so i can't really test it with the program... |
| 19:11.01 | tene | neither of them parse "me" |
| 19:11.33 | vontrapp | but then again they both do |
| 19:11.34 | vontrapp | |lart me |
| 19:11.37 | vontrapp | ~lart me |
| 19:11.41 | vontrapp | oh, just ibot |
| 19:12.47 | sjansen | joshc: look like you look for a fair bit of C knowledge, but that's getting scarse |
| 19:13.02 | Maquis | liz is going to say hi |
| 19:13.13 | Maquis | hi |
| 19:13.16 | tene | hiya |
| 19:13.18 | joshc | unfortunately. |
| 19:13.18 | vontrapp | hi liz |
| 19:13.33 | joshc | even though i think coding in C is difficult to justify for many projects nowadays. |
| 19:14.06 | *** join/#utah tensai_ (~tensai@kite.zmonkey.org) |
| 19:14.44 | sjansen | joshc: What do you mean? Writing Web apps as cgi's in C isn't the right way to do thing?! |
| 19:14.46 | joshc | i think its still a fundamental technology to understand. |
| 19:14.55 | tene | nodnod |
| 19:15.01 | tene | understand what the machine does. |
| 19:15.05 | Maquis | i concur |
| 19:15.21 | vontrapp | too bad there's hardly any classes in C these days |
| 19:15.24 | joshc | basic memory management, that sort of thing |
| 19:15.41 | joshc | dont most universities still teach machine language/architecture which include c? |
| 19:15.43 | sjansen | And these days, it's a decent indicator of being a self motivated to learn 'cause there aren't many places that bother to teach C. |
| 19:16.10 | vontrapp | there are, but just the basics |
| 19:16.13 | hans | yes, many universities do. many don't |
| 19:16.14 | sjansen | joshc: Not really. Mention, yes. Use a little bit, yes. Teach, no. |
| 19:16.15 | hans | including byu |
| 19:16.36 | sjansen | BYU has a C class, but it isn't required. |
| 19:16.38 | joshc | well, to be honest - i dont think byu has a stellar cs program..no offense to anyone |
| 19:16.49 | hans | it isn't worth taking either, unless you're a non-cs major |
| 19:17.03 | hans | I think we all know it's not the best. not the worst either |
| 19:17.05 | sjansen | joshc: I agree and I'm about to get the magic piece of paper saying I graduated from it. |
| 19:17.06 | Maquis | sjansen: they have a few required classes that requier you to use C... |
| 19:17.18 | sjansen | No they don't. |
| 19:17.22 | Maquis | joshc: i agree, but if you combine the program with the uug, then you get pretty good |
| 19:17.35 | sjansen | They require you to use C++ or C. Most use C++ and blame their problems on C. |
| 19:17.38 | Maquis | sjansen: well... cs345 is a required class, and they require you tu use C |
| 19:17.41 | joshc | sure. not to say that bright folks dont come out of byu cs. |
| 19:17.42 | Maquis | (at least this semester |
| 19:17.52 | Maquis | and cs324 is the same... |
| 19:18.03 | sjansen | I don't consider 345 as sufficiently teaching C, although it comes the closest. |
| 19:18.24 | Maquis | sjansen: i'm not saying that it "teaches" it... just that it does at least force you to use it |
| 19:18.25 | sjansen | 345 was actually a really great class. |
| 19:18.32 | Maquis | aside from the scheduler |
| 19:18.44 | Maquis | anyway, i'm going to go crash someplace and work on the scheduler |
| 19:18.46 | Maquis | have fun all |
| 19:18.50 | hans | joshc: most of us bright people coming out of byu CS would be bright coming out of slcc too. In a way I'm glad I was at BYU which I think was less demanding than say MIT would have been, because I could focus my learning on what _I_ wanted to learn |
| 19:18.52 | vontrapp | Aah, right, the scheduler |
| 19:18.52 | joshc | l8r |
| 19:18.55 | hans | but for the non-self-starter... |
| 19:18.57 | sjansen | Yeah, but 324 and 345 only skim the surface of C. |
| 19:20.08 | vontrapp | but wait, i wrote a very simple scheduler once, in java, don't remember what class it was though |
| 19:20.08 | joshc | hmm..i dunno hans. i'm pretty bias for the "school-that-kicks-the-crap-out-of-you-non-stop-so-you-are-bitter-and-exhasted-all-the-time-and-have-no-time-to-do-anything-else" |
| 19:20.30 | joshc | but that's an admitted bias, so who knows. |
| 19:21.03 | *** join/#utah byronc (~byron@209.197.11.63) |
| 19:21.17 | joshc | besides, i met my wife at byu (i went there for summer school once) |
| 19:21.48 | joshc | so in my opinion, byu is probably more important for non-academic reasons |
| 19:22.04 | hans | well there's something to be said for that approach too. and probably the better approach for many people |
| 19:22.25 | hans | I think I personally learn more when given the room to explore my own intereste |
| 19:23.13 | joshc | you know the best class i ever took? an operating systems course based on freebsd. |
| 19:23.35 | joshc | it was amazingly difficult, half the class hated it, half of em loved it. |
| 19:23.47 | joshc | they taught it only 1 semester b/c it was very controversial. |
| 19:23.58 | hans | sounds like a great class |
| 19:24.11 | joshc | we had to hack up the file system, change the cpu scheduler, add syncronization system calls etc. |
| 19:24.24 | Jayce^ | wait, they used bsd at berkely? what's up with that kinda thinking? |
| 19:24.26 | joshc | very little guidance - very painful to do kernel development |
| 19:24.43 | joshc | actually, they mostly used hpux for undergrad and solaris for grad |
| 19:24.54 | joshc | at least when i was there. i dont know what they use now. |
| 19:25.14 | joshc | i dont remember seeing any bsd boxen except for that class |
| 19:28.25 | joshc | i'd like to take that course to byu sometime |
| 19:31.23 | sjansen | the first rev of 345 on Linux was kinda like that |
| 19:31.35 | sjansen | except the class complained so much that the professor finally caved |
| 19:31.47 | sjansen | personally, I thought it was great being thrown to the wolves |
| 19:32.01 | hans | I think it would have been great too |
| 19:32.20 | sjansen | everytime I walked into the labs, or heard someone complain, I'd remember the TMBG line: |
| 19:32.43 | sjansen | "hang on, hang on tight" "everybody has to hang on, just to keep from being trown to the wolves" |
| 19:32.55 | Jayce^ | mmm... flood |
| 19:32.57 | joshc | tmbg? |
| 19:33.06 | Jayce^ | They Might Be Giants |
| 19:33.17 | joshc | mmm...giants |
| 19:33.22 | *** join/#utah bzob (~bzobrist@dynix.dynix.com) |
| 19:34.32 | bucky | all of life's answers are questioned in pop music |
| 19:35.08 | brailsmt | how do I multiply a string in perl? ie. if I want 50 '*' characters... |
| 19:35.17 | brailsmt | '*' * 50 |
| 19:35.21 | brailsmt | or something... |
| 19:35.41 | sjansen | use ruby ;-) |
| 19:35.51 | joshc | you like ruby lots more than python? |
| 19:36.09 | joshc | i played with python this summer, and i was impressed - but ive heard lots of great things about ruby on rails |
| 19:36.38 | joshc | why dont you like python? |
| 19:36.38 | sjansen | I haven't revisited it for a few years, so maybe it's gotten better. |
| 19:36.47 | brailsmt | i hate pyhton |
| 19:36.50 | brailsmt | i prefer ruby |
| 19:36.56 | brailsmt | but I am being paid to write perl... |
| 19:36.57 | sjansen | When I first started learning it, I like how easy it was to do functional programming in python. |
| 19:37.17 | brailsmt | so using ruby isn't a choice i have |
| 19:37.28 | Jayce^ | brailsmt, 'x' '*' x 50; |
| 19:37.33 | joshc | add c extensions was so easy - i think that's great. |
| 19:37.42 | sjansen | Then I started pushing its limits and it broke. Python wasn't as orthogonal as it first looked. |
| 19:37.44 | joshc | also, less lines of code means less bugs |
| 19:37.55 | joshc | curious- what broke? |
| 19:38.07 | brailsmt | joshc: python C extensions are a pain compared to ruby c extensions |
| 19:38.22 | joshc | really? hm - maybe i should look at ruby. |
| 19:38.28 | brailsmt | i know, i have done both... |
| 19:38.36 | joshc | b/c c extensions in python seemed so easy to me. refreshingly so. |
| 19:38.55 | joshc | also, google support for python is encouraging. |
| 19:38.55 | brailsmt | yeah, you do need to take a look at ruby |
| 19:39.01 | Jayce^ | since ruby is just an early attempt at perl 6 :) |
| 19:39.08 | brailsmt | Jayce^: lol |
| 19:39.12 | sjansen | Perl is much measier, but it's also consistent. Everything was consisten and orthogonal, I couldn't find ways to break it. |
| 19:39.16 | brailsmt | perl 6 is an attempt to make perl more like ruby |
| 19:39.20 | Jayce^ | even matz says so |
| 19:39.37 | Jayce^ | nah, perl 6 is a long time coming, even before ruby these things were discussed |
| 19:39.48 | sjansen | Ruby is, on the other hand, is much cleaner than perl. It's just a shame that it doesn't have as large a community. |
| 19:39.58 | joshc | perl is great, but i've been personally traumatized by too many large projects done in perl - in bad ways. |
| 19:40.15 | Jayce^ | that's because it's a mormon language :-p |
| 19:40.21 | Jayce^ | mmm, parrot |
| 19:40.42 | joshc | i thought deseret was a dead language? :-p |
| 19:40.45 | sjansen | I think the best solution will someday be writing the bulk in ruby, then dipping into perl for the hard stuff. |
| 19:40.53 | Jayce^ | coworker was playing with parrot the other day, some cool stuff |
| 19:44.09 | joshc | i've been wading through resumes on hotjobs all morning |
| 19:44.14 | joshc | i'm ready to slit my wrists |
| 19:44.19 | RyanB1 | joshc: what are you looking for? |
| 19:44.23 | RyanB1 | not that I'm looking. |
| 19:44.27 | hans | ~kill joshc |
| 19:44.29 | ibot | ACTION shoots a inverse anti-neutron gun at joshc |
| 19:44.34 | spig | just hire some non-specifists and call it good :) |
| 19:44.54 | joshc | thanks hans. i needed that. |
| 19:45.05 | tene | what are you looking for, joshc? |
| 19:45.40 | joshc | non-specifists? i'm a big believer in [raw talent > specific skills] |
| 19:46.02 | spig | yeah, i know |
| 19:46.04 | joshc | but resumes are opaque in so many ways, so its hard to find |
| 19:46.11 | spig | raw talent sometimes isn't specific.. |
| 19:46.22 | RyanB1 | right, but you probably have some idea of what the environment for the project will be... |
| 19:47.03 | joshc | right now i'm looking for a linux system engineer - someone who is comfortable w/ threads, syncronization, sockets etc. |
| 19:47.33 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 19:47.34 | joshc | that can handle a very very large environment |
| 19:47.52 | joshc | classic c10k stuff, ya know? |
| 19:48.37 | levi | I do the opposite end of the spectrum--embedded C programming. |
| 19:48.55 | RyanB1 | levi: under ucLinux? |
| 19:48.56 | joshc | yep, other end. |
| 19:49.32 | levi | RyanB1: My previous env was a standard kernel with uclibc and busybox. |
| 19:50.26 | RyanB1 | so you had kernel and CPU with MMU? |
| 19:50.26 | levi | RyanB1: The current one is more of a typical embedded system; non-x86 arch, no mmu, etc. But uclinux is integrated with the mainstream kernel now. |
| 19:50.30 | RyanB1 | aha |
| 19:50.57 | levi | RyanB1: Yeah, my previous one was an x86 w/bios and an IDE flash disk and everything. |
| 19:51.12 | RyanB1 | I've done some contract work on a uclinux non-MMU C code project... lots of fun. |
| 19:56.11 | joshc | does anyone remember ET shoes from buster brown? |
| 19:56.20 | joshc | or "whitney and the robot" tv show? |
| 19:56.44 | joshc | those are two childhood memories that i'm not sure were real. |
| 19:57.05 | joshc | circa mid-late 70's |
| 19:57.18 | joshc | maybe early 80's |
| 20:05.04 | Jayce^ | nope |
| 20:06.10 | joshc | they are probably implanted false memories |
| 20:11.55 | bucky | they scared you for life |
| 20:12.00 | levi | You should have been watching Voltron, Star Blazers, and Robotech. |
| 20:12.36 | joshc | how about g-force? i had the lunchbox. |
| 20:12.52 | joshc | star blazers - is that the one with the big battleship in space? |
| 20:12.57 | levi | I had a lunchbox from Disney's 'The Black Hole' |
| 20:13.13 | levi | joshc: Yeah, the Yamato. |
| 20:13.26 | joshc | ah - good stuff. |
| 20:13.30 | levi | I think that's what it was called, at least. |
| 20:14.08 | joshc | that and the twighlight zone was pretty much my after-kindergarten tv watching regiment |
| 20:14.30 | sjansen | Now I can't stand to watch it, it's so cheesy. |
| 20:14.53 | levi | I used to watch Lost in Space. |
| 20:14.58 | levi | "Danger, Will Robinson!" |
| 20:15.05 | bucky | fun.. i had to walk to seminary every morning before school because we didn't have free hour |
| 20:15.31 | joshc | does anyone know someone named "spencer george" |
| 20:15.44 | joshc | from spanish fork? |
| 20:16.32 | joshc | i guess that means 'no' |
| 20:16.38 | bucky | Spencer George, (801) 794-2447, 1263 E 150 S, Spanish Fork, UT 84660 |
| 20:16.46 | joshc | erm, you googled him eh>? |
| 20:16.57 | Jayce^ | Voltron was a cheap knockoff |
| 20:17.06 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (~von@user-225.kingsley2.fiber.net) |
| 20:17.06 | Jayce^ | star blazers was good |
| 20:17.08 | bucky | yep, i don't know him.. should i? |
| 20:17.17 | Jayce^ | Voltes 5 all the way |
| 20:17.41 | joshc | wasnt the bad guy in g-force named zoltan? |
| 20:18.09 | joshc | the one where they were all bird-characters and had cool motorcycles/spaceships |
| 20:18.18 | bucky | joshc, says something about Alpha Engineering here in St George |
| 20:19.02 | bucky | so the guy has his own engineering firm and a house in St George |
| 20:19.10 | joshc | yeah, i was just wondering if anyone knew him personally/professionally |
| 20:21.01 | bucky | looks like a civil engineer |
| 20:21.59 | sjansen | bucky: joshc can google, he wants an evaluation from a flesh and blood person |
| 20:22.24 | joshc | google isnt flesh and blood?? |
| 20:22.45 | bucky | i bet the releif society knows him.. that's where everybody goes for personal information here |
| 20:22.48 | joshc | you guys ever look into the turring test? (speaking of) |
| 20:23.17 | hans | you mean to tell if the RS prez is human? |
| 20:23.21 | joshc | lol |
| 20:23.25 | Uncle_Jesse | o/~shpyder...o/~ |
| 20:23.35 | sjansen | you know: "Oh, yeah. You're thinking about hiring my buddy Spenser? Well just make sure you don't let him near peppers. Guy doesn't know when to stop. Once had to take a week off from work while his body purged itself. First time I've heard of chemical burns on _that_ part of the body." |
| 20:23.41 | Uncle_Jesse | o/~ He is our hero... o/~ |
| 20:23.59 | Uncle_Jesse | Greetings, btw |
| 20:24.07 | Uncle_Jesse | just felt like randomly singing |
| 20:24.13 | joshc | uncle jesse, like from the dukes of hazzard? |
| 20:24.19 | sjansen | joshc: yeah, the question is does the turing test matter? |
| 20:24.33 | joshc | well, i think it might matter. |
| 20:24.40 | Uncle_Jesse | joshc: that's the origination of it |
| 20:24.45 | vontrapp | o/~ I promise not to kill you o/~ |
| 20:24.58 | joshc | i always like the uncle jesse character. |
| 20:25.13 | joshc | customer service bots are the obvious big win |
| 20:25.27 | joshc | if you could truly make 'em work, then it'd save an awful lot of money |
| 20:25.40 | joshc | of course, it would do serious damage to utah's economy. ;-) |
| 20:25.53 | sjansen | heh, morons to provide support for morons... how poetic |
| 20:25.55 | joshc | (i understand that there are a ton of customer service centers here in utah) |
| 20:26.10 | Jayce^ | convergys replaced by massive eliza bots |
| 20:26.19 | sjansen | although I have to say it would _seriously_ anger me to discover I was interacting with a bot |
| 20:26.22 | bucky | Turing was gay.. i think that invalidates the test |
| 20:26.32 | joshc | lol - how do you know turing was gay? |
| 20:26.44 | joshc | besides, so are a lot of exceptional computer scientists.. |
| 20:26.44 | bucky | he was murdered for being gay |
| 20:26.50 | joshc | really? |
| 20:26.56 | bucky | yep |
| 20:27.08 | joshc | you're going to make me do a search on that one.. |
| 20:27.19 | RyanB1 | not murdered, suicide |
| 20:27.43 | hans | sjansen: only if the bot was less stupid than a real person |
| 20:27.51 | bucky | it was a cover up |
| 20:28.11 | hans | if you were wondering why customer service had been improved and discovered it was because they were al replaced by bots, you wouldn't be very mad. |
| 20:28.23 | sjansen | hans: no, because talking to the person I know they're stupid, talking to the bot I know the company thinks I'm stupid and there's no easy way to bluff them |
| 20:28.55 | sjansen | at least with a person, you can abuse them a bit and get escalated to an engineer |
| 20:28.58 | joshc | well, if it really passed a set of turing tests, you would have no way of knowing it was a bot, so i guess it wouldnt really matter, right? |
| 20:29.38 | joshc | (btw - wikipedia seems to indicate turing was gay - but then again, his sexuality has nothing to do with the validity of the turing test..) |
| 20:29.43 | sjansen | that's a big if |
| 20:30.06 | sjansen | of course it doesn't, but it still doesn't make the turing test very relavent |
| 20:31.06 | levi | Huh. In 1952 he was arrested as a homosexual, which led to his loss of security clearance. |
| 20:31.18 | joshc | hm. it seems to me that it *is* relevant: if someone was able to pass it, it would change the customer service industry |
| 20:31.27 | joshc | how is that not relavent? |
| 20:31.28 | hans | "Turing died of potassium cyanide poisoning while conducting electrolysis experiments. The cyanide was found on a half eaten apple beside him. An inquest concluded that it was self-administered but his mother always maintained that it was an accident." |
| 20:31.31 | levi | 2 years later he died of self-administered cyanide poisoning. |
| 20:32.15 | hans | that from http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Mathematicians/Turing.html |
| 20:32.37 | joshc | eric allman (sendmail) is also gay |
| 20:32.41 | levi | joshc: I think the question is whether or not the turing test is really a good test of intelligent behavior. |
| 20:32.52 | hans | and hordes of scientists/CS types are unchaste |
| 20:32.56 | hans | *shrug* |
| 20:33.11 | joshc | and so is kirk mckusik (bsd) |
| 20:33.27 | hans | don't forget pet shop boys |
| 20:33.30 | joshc | lol |
| 20:33.50 | joshc | lol. |
| 20:34.00 | Jayce^ | hans, PSB is gay? :-p |
| 20:34.25 | sjansen | sponge bob square pants is too |
| 20:34.33 | joshc | well now wait a second there... |
| 20:34.54 | Jayce^ | next you'll say Andy Bell (singer in Erasure) is gay too .. :-D |
| 20:34.55 | joshc | there is very little evidence of spongebob being gay |
| 20:35.08 | sjansen | joshc: it's a joke |
| 20:35.08 | joshc | but back to the turing test.. |
| 20:35.11 | hans | oh sure sjansen, right along with bert and ernie |
| 20:35.19 | joshc | sjansesn: i know. ;-) |
| 20:35.21 | sjansen | and all of the power puff girls |
| 20:35.23 | bucky | there's very little evidence that spongebob wrote any good code |
| 20:35.26 | Jayce^ | hey now! |
| 20:35.34 | joshc | i like the power puff girls |
| 20:35.40 | hans | I agree, if the turing test does what it's supposed to do, sjansen would never know he wasn't talking to a human |
| 20:35.53 | tene | sjansen: but is there proof that he isn't? |
| 20:35.53 | joshc | but that weird bad guy/girl in it is creepy (not the monkey, but the weird devil person) |
| 20:36.07 | hans | butt he question is, does that mean the bot has to be just as annoying and hard to get through to as a human? or might it be more friendly and helpful |
| 20:36.29 | sjansen | true, maybe this is one place where the turing test is relavent |
| 20:36.40 | joshc | righty right. |
| 20:36.40 | sjansen | doesn't actually advance AI much, but it is useful economically |
| 20:36.56 | joshc | i guess it depends on how you define relevance. |
| 20:37.09 | joshc | changing a multi-billion dollar industry is relevant in my book. |
| 20:37.18 | tene | But the questions is, does the bot handle its input in a safe manner, or would it be possible to exploit a buffer overflow in the tech support monkey? |
| 20:37.53 | RyanB1 | I regularly overflow the mental buffer of 'real' support monkeys. |
| 20:38.13 | ECS | have we found holes in iBot? He does have op status. |
| 20:38.27 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:38.37 | Jayce^ | so which ECS is it :) |
| 20:38.38 | ECS | I'm still here |
| 20:38.48 | *** kick/#utah [ECS!~jayce@pollux.northsky.com] by Jayce^ (Jayce^) |
| 20:38.51 | Jayce^ | no you aren't :) |
| 20:39.32 | joshc | is this channel logged anywhere? |
| 20:39.38 | sjansen | someone should explain to ECS that a perl bot isn't likely to have buffer overflows |
| 20:39.39 | tensai_ | ~logs |
| 20:39.40 | ibot | [logs] http://ibot.rikers.org/<channelname>/ where channelname is html encoded ie: %23debian, or stats for some channels at http://ibot.rikers.org/stats/<channelname>.html.gz for apt, ibot, jbot and purl. |
| 20:39.55 | sjansen | although it might have other vulnerabilities |
| 20:40.16 | sjansen | security is so much more than protecting your buffers |
| 20:40.30 | joshc | sigh. i dont like chat logs. |
| 20:40.32 | *** join/#utah ECS (~ecs@ecs-dell.byu.edu) |
| 20:40.51 | sjansen | ECS: welcome back |
| 20:40.56 | Jayce^ | :-D |
| 20:40.58 | sjansen | ~lart ECS |
| 20:41.09 | ECS | 'Now we see the violence inherent in the system' |
| 20:41.20 | ECS | |lart Jayce |
| 20:41.24 | Jayce^ | old woman.. |
| 20:42.09 | sjansen | joshc: just don't say anything you'll ever regret |
| 20:42.18 | ECS | |ecs |
| 20:42.22 | ECS | ~ecs |
| 20:42.23 | ibot | you are, like, Education Computing support. Generally that means SpecialK is at work. |
| 20:42.31 | joshc | regret depends on who sees it. ;-) |
| 20:42.41 | Jayce^ | ~joshc |
| 20:42.54 | Jayce^ | hrm, going to have to add something :> |
| 20:43.08 | tene | I always take the stance that anything I say in a public place is going to be available to anyone who cares to look. |
| 20:43.24 | sjansen | And there's a decent chance in private too. |
| 20:43.33 | joshc | yeah, but it seems like that would hamper the freeflow of information |
| 20:43.36 | tene | I also generally consider communication channels to be insecure by default |
| 20:44.05 | sjansen | there's always that chance |
| 20:44.24 | vontrapp | some of my gaim logs are quite entertaining |
| 20:44.33 | hans | does ibot keep indefinite logs? |
| 20:44.42 | sjansen | pretty much |
| 20:44.51 | sjansen | although she doesn't record her own larts |
| 20:45.18 | ECS | That's a good thing |
| 20:45.19 | vontrapp | that doesn't make much sense |
| 20:45.35 | hans | I don't like indefinite irc logs. a few days, a year even, is ok |
| 20:45.43 | sjansen | ~lart vontrapp for questioning TimRiker |
| 20:45.50 | tene | whyfor, hans? |
| 20:45.56 | ECS | Bad enough that I've logged several thousand ~lart Maquis |
| 20:46.26 | hans | why should I like it? |
| 20:46.45 | vontrapp | yuck, dentist aftertaste |
| 20:47.00 | tene | because sjansen does, hans |
| 20:47.04 | hans | it's enough to stumble across decade-old emails. If I saw decade-old irc logs I think I'd shrivel up in embarrasment |
| 20:47.06 | tene | don't you want to be just like sjansen? |
| 20:47.31 | sjansen | except when I don't... |
| 20:47.33 | hans | oh yeah, I forgot. sjansen is my idol |
| 20:47.35 | joshc | so i wonder if google crawls these logs? |
| 20:47.43 | sjansen | doesn't appear to |
| 20:47.44 | hans | let's find out |
| 20:47.47 | sjansen | they're stored gzipped |
| 20:47.49 | hans | ~google "lart maquis" |
| 20:48.23 | joshc | you think a simple gzip is going to stop the mighty googlebot?? |
| 20:48.28 | hans | that's not what I got, ibot. |
| 20:49.06 | sjansen | oh, looks like it does |
| 20:49.18 | sjansen | I just haven't found a magic string before. |
| 20:49.49 | joshc | well, that's it then. we're all screwed. |
| 20:49.52 | RyanB1 | does anyone have a favorite linux SIP client to goof off with asterisk? |
| 20:50.12 | vontrapp | that seems to be a popular question as of late |
| 20:50.25 | RyanB1 | must've missed last go-around |
| 20:50.27 | tene | does anyone have a spare FXS they'd like to give to me? |
| 20:50.33 | vontrapp | and the popular answer is "they all suck" |
| 20:50.35 | RyanB1 | another popular question. |
| 20:50.57 | tensai_ | kphone works to a point. that's my "favorite" |
| 20:51.09 | tensai_ | mostly I use xten x-lite on windows *shudder* |
| 20:51.14 | hans | how hard can a softphone be? what does it have to do? |
| 20:51.41 | vontrapp | bind into compression libraries and comunicate/authenticate with a server |
| 20:51.52 | vontrapp | doesn't seem like it would be that hard |
| 20:52.16 | RyanB1 | well, so far, I'd agree with the 'they all suck' assessment. |
| 20:52.38 | *** join/#utah capeddu (~asdf@65.73.180.154) |
| 20:53.05 | vontrapp | but yeah, kphone is the one i could get working and use |
| 20:53.25 | vontrapp | it froze up on me the other day in the middle of getting directions from somebody |
| 20:53.36 | vontrapp | that was very annoying |
| 20:53.39 | jsmith | vontrapp: Are you talking to an Asterisk server? If so, iaxcomm is popular |
| 20:53.49 | vontrapp | nope, no asterisk server |
| 20:54.01 | hans | vontrapp: why not set one up, and let it talk sip? |
| 20:54.21 | RyanB1 | I've got the asterisk server setup, but want to play with it some before setting up the FXO to do voicemail. |
| 20:54.33 | jsmith | vontrapp: You could always wait for GnomeMeeting to support SIP. |
| 20:54.34 | vontrapp | well, that was the plan originally, but it never happened |
| 20:54.46 | vontrapp | i tried, and it didn't work |
| 20:54.50 | vontrapp | gnomemeeting, thatis |
| 20:55.02 | vontrapp | i think it was some kind of library problem |
| 20:55.02 | hans | I'm doing voicemail already |
| 20:55.30 | *** part/#utah RyanB1 (~ryan@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 20:55.30 | tensai_ | can't gnomemeeting talk h.323 to asterisk? |
| 20:55.45 | *** join/#utah RyanB1 (~ryan@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 20:56.22 | tensai_ | jsmith: you're right. that is a particularly clever solution to RyanB1's problem. One that would be difficult to repeat. |
| 20:56.30 | hans | I wonder if any softphones will interface with JACK |
| 20:56.37 | hans | that could be all kinds of fun |
| 20:58.05 | tene | nodnodnod |
| 20:58.12 | levi | Heh. |
| 20:58.43 | Bradipo | | U.S. Kids Don't Understand First Amendment | http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/31/1930259 | |
| 20:58.54 | hans | not to mention useful. Timemachine for example - it buffers and when you hit record it starts recording from 15 seconds ago |
| 20:58.58 | Bradipo | Hmm, do most of these kid's parents understand it? |
| 20:58.58 | bucky | vontrapp, have you tried skype? |
| 20:59.21 | vontrapp | i remember looking at it... |
| 20:59.41 | sjansen | do lawyers understand it? |
| 20:59.56 | sjansen | I've seen all kinds of crazy 'first amendment' arguments. |
| 21:00.00 | bucky | vontrapp, it's proprietary... from the kazaa people, but it works with other systems |
| 21:00.01 | bucky | http://www.voip-info.org/wiki-Skype+Gateways |
| 21:00.40 | bucky | http://www.skype.com/ |
| 21:04.10 | vontrapp | how do i make it work with another service? |
| 21:04.59 | *** join/#utah bbeattie (~bbeattie@65.89.233.20) |
| 21:05.28 | vontrapp | yuck, i don't like qt |
| 21:05.50 | hans | what you don't like the look? |
| 21:05.57 | vontrapp | si |
| 21:06.10 | vontrapp | or the feel |
| 21:06.28 | tensai_ | vontrapp: that's ok. it told me the same thing about you. |
| 21:06.32 | hans | it may just be me, but the time to argue about looks is after several programs have similar functionality. Until then, I'd use an athena program if it has the most functionality |
| 21:07.54 | vontrapp | i could live with the look, but it seems tailored to connect to skype and i don't see a way to get onto another service |
| 21:08.14 | vontrapp | what is athena? |
| 21:08.19 | RyanB1 | widget set |
| 21:08.27 | RyanB1 | oooold widget set |
| 21:08.33 | tensai_ | think xterm |
| 21:08.36 | sjansen | hans: You're totally wrong. Looks are all that matter. |
| 21:08.49 | RyanB1 | so sjansen, you're still single... I wonder why? |
| 21:09.19 | sjansen | RyanB1: Because no one was good enough for me, I'm so good looking. ;-) |
| 21:09.27 | RyanB1 | hehehe |
| 21:11.38 | levi | Oh my. |
| 21:12.28 | hans | xterm? xterm doesn't use any widgets except maybe the scrollbar. no, think xfontsel |
| 21:12.54 | hans | which is a good example of where an athena program wins, in my book. |
| 21:12.54 | vontrapp | hans: ctr-clicks in xterm |
| 21:13.27 | hans | ok, and a simple menu. that doesn't get into the true antibeauty of athena |
| 21:16.58 | hans | looks like x-lite has a linux beta out. |
| 21:17.17 | tensai_ | ooh |
| 21:17.21 | levi | I remember when athena3d widgets were the new cool thing. |
| 21:17.21 | Jayce^ | anybody know a way to open a .NRG (nero) file in linux? |
| 21:17.31 | hans | http://sipthat.com/archives/000187.html |
| 21:17.38 | fozz | Jayce^: Have you tried vim? |
| 21:17.40 | fozz | hee hee. |
| 21:17.41 | levi | And everyone really wished they had the cash for Motif. |
| 21:17.44 | hans | xxd? |
| 21:18.09 | Jayce^ | fozz, riiiight.. I need the mp3^H^H^H^H Data from them |
| 21:18.35 | levi | Tried loopback mounting it? |
| 21:18.54 | sjansen | you'd think and nrg can't be that much different from an iso |
| 21:19.10 | levi | It's likely an iso with a header on it. |
| 21:20.08 | Jayce^ | yeah, 'wrong fs type....' |
| 21:20.29 | tensai_ | use a hex editor and look for the iso header. delete everything up to that. |
| 21:20.37 | vontrapp | Jayce^: there's an nrg2iso utility |
| 21:20.57 | sjansen | vontrapp: sure, do things the easy way |
| 21:21.05 | *** join/#utah beandog (~sdibb@403238C8.ptr.dia.nextlink.net) |
| 21:21.38 | sjansen | Jayce^: just cat /dev/urandom until you get an iso with the same data as the original |
| 21:22.00 | levi | Jayce^: Just find a lot of monkeys with vt100 terminals... |
| 21:22.02 | Jayce^ | vontrapp, thx |
| 21:22.19 | Newsome | hrm, written in Pascal |
| 21:22.24 | vontrapp | levi: that would just give you shakespear |
| 21:22.43 | Newsome | er, Delphi |
| 21:22.53 | levi | vontrapp: Surely shakespeare is better than whatever mp3s he wants. He'll be better off in the long run. ;) |
| 21:23.12 | sjansen | Delphi := Pascal |
| 21:23.22 | Newsome | yes, in a way |
| 21:23.28 | sjansen | Pascal := Worse than Python. |
| 21:23.52 | beandog | sjansen: are there any languages you view in a positive light? |
| 21:24.03 | RyanB1 | besides portugues? |
| 21:24.08 | sjansen | C doesn't suck for some things. |
| 21:24.14 | levi | Pascal isn't that bad, really. |
| 21:24.26 | joshc | esperanto |
| 21:24.26 | Newsome | Okay, this is weird: write a program in pascal, then include inline assembly |
| 21:24.36 | RyanB1 | I had CS142 and CS232 in UCSD pascal on the apple. |
| 21:24.36 | tensai_ | pointers in pascal are a PITA, right Jayce^? |
| 21:24.41 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 21:25.04 | beandog | tensai_: try writing OOP code in ASP |
| 21:25.27 | Jayce^ | Turbo Pascal baby |
| 21:25.32 | tensai_ | beandog: thanks but I'd rather gouge out my eyes |
| 21:25.34 | beandog | sjansen: anything else? |
| 21:25.43 | Newsome | Control-K C |
| 21:25.47 | levi | I used to program in Turbo Pascal. |
| 21:25.47 | Newsome | Control-K K |
| 21:25.51 | levi | It was pretty cool. |
| 21:26.03 | Jayce^ | my first non-basic language |
| 21:26.06 | beandog | tensai_: no, really, its a fun challenge :D |
| 21:26.22 | RyanB1 | UCSD on the Apple II was two floppies. One for Pascal, One for runtime... |
| 21:26.23 | levi | I think I did some Logo after Applesoft Basic. |
| 21:26.42 | Jayce^ | true, did both of those in elementry school.. |
| 21:26.48 | levi | And then I did some version of Pascal on the Mac. |
| 21:27.09 | sjansen | Perl is powerful. bash/ksh/sh is convenient. C# is fun. |
| 21:27.20 | tensai_ | I literally get depressed when writing code in VB or otherwise using Win32 API |
| 21:27.49 | tensai_ | now quick basic. that's where the fun is at. |
| 21:28.20 | joshc | who bemoans the tomato stains on the wall? |
| 21:28.35 | capeddu | GW basic is where it all began! |
| 21:28.40 | levi | I'm going through my CS330 textbook and doing the Scheme exercises. It's fun. |
| 21:28.41 | sjansen | Assembly can be fun. Ruby is pretty, although not very useful yet. |
| 21:28.52 | Newsome | This would have made a lot more sense if he'd just given the file format |
| 21:28.58 | sjansen | Scheme is also fun. |
| 21:29.14 | capeddu | Don't forget Prolog! |
| 21:29.20 | Newsome | If you like carrot peelers stuffed up your nose. |
| 21:29.25 | levi | I'm also reading through Practical Common Lisp, and finding CL to be fun *and* useful. |
| 21:29.42 | Uncle_Jesse | I remember writing a bit of assembly in Pascal when I was in High School |
| 21:29.43 | sjansen | beandog: that about sums up my opinion, unless you want me to start listing what I strongly dislike |
| 21:29.43 | levi | I went to the BYU AHSSP summer camp, and there learned Prolog. |
| 21:29.47 | Uncle_Jesse | I don't remember a bit of it though |
| 21:30.00 | tensai_ | levi: can you explain to me what ' means in lisp? |
| 21:30.09 | Uncle_Jesse | We used to write to the display ports and create cool animated designs |
| 21:30.15 | levi | tensai: It's shorthand for (quote) |
| 21:30.15 | Uncle_Jesse | better than a screen saver at that time |
| 21:30.18 | joshc | mrs. munch of course!! |
| 21:30.27 | beandog | sjansen: no, thats fine, thanks tho. |
| 21:30.34 | sjansen | heh |
| 21:30.40 | levi | tensai: (quote) is a special form to keep the arg from being evaluated. |
| 21:30.48 | tene | hey, sjansen, what languages do you strongly dislike? |
| 21:30.49 | sjansen | you're fault for asking |
| 21:31.10 | beandog | sjansen: s'ok, I was interested. |
| 21:31.23 | sjansen | Number one on my hit list if C++. Followed by Java. Also not a big fan of Python, although it's not nearly as bad as the first two. |
| 21:31.25 | levi | tensai_: So, '(a b c) is short for (quote (a b c)), and lets you pass a list as an arg without the evaluator trying to call function a with args b and c. |
| 21:31.32 | sjansen | Visual Basic, now there's an evil language. |
| 21:31.38 | beandog | sjansen: heh |
| 21:31.48 | sjansen | I actually kinda like PHP, but I'm not a big fan of most PHP programmers. |
| 21:31.54 | beandog | how come |
| 21:32.07 | tensai_ | levi: ok. what about applied to a string: (foo 'bar)? |
| 21:32.28 | beandog | sjansen: er, to clarify, why are you not a big fan of most php programmers |
| 21:32.29 | sjansen | People accuse perl of being unmaintainable, but thankfully it scares off people that can't code. |
| 21:32.32 | hans | jsmith: |addlart makes <who> convert sjansen to C++ |
| 21:32.33 | levi | tensai_: There's also a cool backquote syntax, which allows you to selectively unquote parts of your list so they do get evaluated. |
| 21:32.40 | beandog | lol |
| 21:32.49 | beandog | heheh, thats great. :) |
| 21:32.50 | hans | er, how did that jsmith get there |
| 21:32.57 | sjansen | Most of the PHP code I've seen is much worse, but because it's less scary PHP attracts alot of inexperienced prgrammers. |
| 21:32.57 | hans | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:33.02 | levi | tensai_: Again, it prevents the symbol from getting evaluated. (quote foo) evaluates to foo, while foo evaluates to the value that's bound to foo. |
| 21:33.05 | beandog | sjansen: kinda like vb? |
| 21:33.10 | fozz | Meow |
| 21:33.15 | sjansen | exactly like vb |
| 21:33.19 | beandog | Hmm. |
| 21:33.26 | beandog | I would agree with you there -- php is very forgiving. |
| 21:33.36 | sjansen | I've actually know a couple of really smart VB programmers. They're just hard to find. |
| 21:33.42 | RyanB1 | ouch. best argument against PHP I've heard yet |
| 21:33.56 | sjansen | Same for PHP. I've known some good PHP programmers, but they're hard to find. |
| 21:33.59 | joshc | those same arguments could be used against any dynamic language |
| 21:34.00 | fozz | Most of the good VB (or PHP) programmers I know aren't happy they're doing stuff in those languages. |
| 21:34.09 | beandog | So what qualifies as a good php programmer? |
| 21:34.18 | fozz | They'd rather be using something else, but they're stuck doing stuff in VB/PHP for the job. |
| 21:34.25 | fozz | beandog: Understanding MVC |
| 21:34.34 | fozz | That's my biggest gripe. |
| 21:34.35 | tensai_ | Maquis seems to be intelligent despite her use of VB |
| 21:34.36 | beandog | I only know PHP right now, so Im genuinely interested .. |
| 21:34.38 | Newsome | Jayce^: you get that ISO extracted yet? |
| 21:34.38 | beandog | MVC? |
| 21:34.50 | fozz | beandog: Model View Controller |
| 21:35.07 | fozz | http://st-www.cs.uiuc.edu/users/smarch/st-docs/mvc.html |
| 21:35.12 | sjansen | Or in other words, seperation of presentation and logic. |
| 21:35.40 | beandog | that stuff's all over my head |
| 21:35.43 | Jayce^ | Newsome, got it converted, now it's not letting me loop mount the iso for some reason |
| 21:35.45 | sjansen | beandog: Please don't say that you only know MySQL. |
| 21:35.47 | beandog | self-taught, so dont have a clue. |
| 21:35.53 | beandog | MySQL sucks rocks. |
| 21:36.21 | beandog | Using mssql at work ... fun getting php to work with that. :) |
| 21:36.28 | *** join/#utah drewbono (~andrew@byu176783wks.rn.byu.edu) |
| 21:36.28 | Jayce^ | sqlite, for when performance *really* isn't an issue :) |
| 21:36.36 | beandog | Jayce^: or security. or replication. |
| 21:36.38 | jsmith | beandog: No, it's easy to get PHP working with it. At least it is now... |
| 21:36.50 | sjansen | The big thing about MVC is don't mix your business logic and your presentation logic. |
| 21:36.52 | beandog | jsmith: I guess I meant more like ... getting mssql to work |
| 21:37.12 | jsmith | beandog: FreeTDS is your friend. |
| 21:37.12 | jsmith | beandog: I've done it dozens of times. |
| 21:37.13 | beandog | jsmith: Yah, thats what Im using. I think. |
| 21:37.26 | levi | tensai_: As part of the backquote syntax, you can splice an evaluted list into the quoted list. So, `(function-to-eval later ,@(eval-now-to-get-args arg1 arg2) another-arg) gives you a non-nested list of a function name, however many elements were returned by the spliced-in call, and a final arg. |
| 21:37.32 | jsmith | beandog: Back before FreeTDS, is *was* a royal pain. |
| 21:37.36 | capeddu | I'm pretty happy as a PHP programmer! |
| 21:38.28 | beandog | sjansen: I dont even have a clue what the terminlogy means. I hear it a lot, but never bother to look it up. |
| 21:38.39 | sjansen | spoken like a true PHP user |
| 21:38.40 | levi | Aiee. |
| 21:38.53 | beandog | heh |
| 21:38.54 | beandog | ouch. |
| 21:39.13 | sjansen | At least you admit your sin, the next step is repentance. |
| 21:39.23 | levi | MVC has been around almost as long as the concept of object-oriented programming. |
| 21:39.23 | jsmith | sjansen: Hey, don't lump all PHP programmers in the same group. Some PHP programmers are above average :-) |
| 21:39.29 | sjansen | As your penance, I assign learning Java as your first task. |
| 21:39.33 | beandog | bleh |
| 21:39.34 | RyanB1 | double ouch |
| 21:39.36 | levi | sjansen: Ew. |
| 21:39.43 | RyanB1 | please, make the punishment fit the crime. |
| 21:39.43 | beandog | Id rather take Perl on. |
| 21:39.45 | vontrapp | |lart sjansen |
| 21:39.49 | levi | sjansen: If you want him to learn MVC, make him learn Smalltalk. |
| 21:39.56 | sjansen | When you have completed that, as reward, you may learn Ruby, Scheme, or C. |
| 21:40.07 | beandog | At least give me an example of MVC in use |
| 21:40.17 | beandog | sjansen: next stop is python or perl. Or both. |
| 21:40.17 | sjansen | jsmith: some |
| 21:40.24 | sjansen | jsmith: but then I've already said that |
| 21:40.39 | levi | beandog: Go find Apple's Objective C tutorial. It explains the MVC paradigm. |
| 21:40.39 | beandog | Eek, I actually admitted I might use perl. |
| 21:40.59 | sjansen | Learning perl is a reward, but I'm not sure you're prepared to truly enjoy it until you've learned C and Scheme. |
| 21:41.00 | levi | beandog: It's about Objective C, but the MVC part is pretty clear and easily applicable elsewhere. |
| 21:41.00 | jsmith | sjansen: Yes, you have. |
| 21:41.06 | joshc | mvc/uml is a dangerous road to start on |
| 21:41.36 | RyanB1 | I read the comment, and wondered first what was wrong with User Mode Linux... :) |
| 21:41.43 | beandog | Im still totally lost. |
| 21:41.59 | levi | joshc: uml is dangerous... mvc can be pretty sane if kept separate. |
| 21:42.01 | sjansen | uml: universal modelling language, or something like that |
| 21:42.07 | vontrapp | RyanB1: that's the same thing i thought, but i still don't know what uml is in this context |
| 21:42.18 | sjansen | basically a bunch of pretty picture that let you program everything twice |
| 21:42.21 | hans | the boxes and lines thing |
| 21:42.27 | joshc | i've never seen mvc used, but i've seen my share of uml abuse |
| 21:42.30 | sjansen | useful only in really large applications |
| 21:42.41 | levi | UML is the 'big design up front' philosophy toolbox. |
| 21:42.52 | RyanB1 | I stay away from diagrams with boxes and lines if it's not an E-R diagram. |
| 21:42.53 | joshc | do a search for 'uml fever' |
| 21:43.05 | goozbach | and by large he means something that needs to have an entire team building it piece by piece |
| 21:43.53 | sjansen | and the uml should only be used to describe how the really large pieces fit together |
| 21:43.59 | hans | bah on ER diagrams too |
| 21:44.06 | sjansen | that's what I say |
| 21:44.13 | sjansen | give me a good old schema dump any day |
| 21:44.19 | beandog | meh |
| 21:44.20 | levi | Intro to MVC: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/ObjCTutorial/chapter02/chapter_2_section_3.html |
| 21:44.23 | RyanB1 | I like them for a 'lay of the land' sort of overview. |
| 21:44.23 | sjansen | assuming the db is properaly designed, of course |
| 21:44.37 | beandog | Can someone give me a two sentence explanation of what separation of what and whatever is? |
| 21:44.39 | levi | Ryan81: E-R diagrams are a part of UML. |
| 21:44.40 | beandog | I forget the words already. |
| 21:44.56 | beandog | business and presentation logic? that doesnt sound quite right. |
| 21:44.57 | sjansen | Let's put it this way: Don't mix code and HTML. |
| 21:45.07 | sjansen | actually, right on the nose |
| 21:45.14 | levi | beandog: Look at the link I just posted. |
| 21:45.17 | beandog | If youre writing PHP, how is that possible? PHP is converted to HTML. |
| 21:45.29 | beandog | thx levi |
| 21:45.50 | tene | beandog: it's like keeping content and layout separate with html and css |
| 21:46.20 | RyanB1 | beandog: normally manifested in PHP-land with templates. |
| 21:46.27 | beandog | bleh, death to templates. |
| 21:46.29 | joshc | did anyone graduate from byu in 1995 from the cs dept? |
| 21:46.37 | beandog | Oh wait. |
| 21:46.39 | beandog | I see what youre saying now. |
| 21:46.49 | beandog | I think. |
| 21:46.50 | RyanB1 | 1993, I think. |
| 21:46.54 | *** join/#utah byronc (~byron@209.197.11.63) |
| 21:47.02 | joshc | no 95 cs grads..? |
| 21:47.34 | sjansen | is that anything like the 95 thesis? |
| 21:47.52 | RyanB1 | except they didn't nail the CS grads to the door. |
| 21:47.53 | beandog | I still need a good example to look at ... php preferably. |
| 21:47.58 | hans | um, I started in 95 |
| 21:48.06 | hans | hah, just kidding. 97 |
| 21:48.26 | joshc | ok, nm..just found someone that graduated in 95, looking for a reference |
| 21:48.40 | levi | beandog: Did you not go to the link I gave you? |
| 21:49.27 | levi | I know it's a whole page of reading, but it'll do you good. |
| 21:50.10 | sjansen | And save us alot of time. |
| 21:50.36 | beandog | Oh okay |
| 21:50.41 | beandog | I code that way. |
| 21:50.54 | vontrapp | ouch, i just sneezed and it banged my teeth together |
| 21:51.34 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: what do you think of ColdFusion? |
| 21:51.35 | levi | And now you know what MVC is, at least superficially. |
| 21:52.19 | levi | All I know about ColdFusion is that Metafilter runs on it, and it breaks a lot there. |
| 21:52.45 | goozbach | vontrapp: http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2005-01-28&res=l |
| 21:52.50 | Uncle_Jesse | Half our programmers here are CF programmers - can't stand it |
| 21:52.56 | goozbach | may not be SFW |
| 21:53.10 | Uncle_Jesse | Everything you can do in CF you can do at half the price in other free languages |
| 21:53.19 | beandog | levi: I didnt understand any of that link you sent me, I trudged off and found one of my own |
| 21:53.40 | levi | beandog: If you can't understand that, you need to spend more time on it and be able to understand it. |
| 21:53.58 | sjansen | I think it's hilarious that ColdFusion and JRun can't be on the same server, but Macromedia won't admit it until you push them hard. |
| 21:54.12 | beandog | levi: Its the terminology that confuses me. I still dont understand what an object is. |
| 21:54.15 | Uncle_Jesse | mvc is crucial for Enterprise development |
| 21:54.41 | vontrapp | goozbach: haha |
| 21:54.45 | sjansen | beandog: Ah, yes, that'd be important. |
| 21:54.47 | *** join/#utah bonez41 (~aint@drjones.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 21:54.48 | levi | beandog: You need to understand what an object is in order to understand MVC. |
| 21:55.08 | Uncle_Jesse | sjansen: it's also hilarious that Coldfusion runs on top of Java - you can essentially do all you want with ColdFusion in JSP without the costs |
| 21:55.09 | goozbach | vontrapp: bless you |
| 21:55.15 | beandog | PHP is not the best starting grounds to learn OOP, thats for sure. |
| 21:55.20 | vontrapp | *sniffle* thanks |
| 21:55.43 | sjansen | Object took me awhile to figure out too, but they're actually very simple. |
| 21:56.44 | vontrapp | my first experience with OOP was with the ZZT OOP |
| 21:56.49 | beandog | I can write OO code in PHP, but I couldnt explain it, thats for sure. |
| 21:56.51 | Uncle_Jesse | My coworker went to a JSP/Servlets class with me awhile back and when they were going over JSP he said "This is just like Coldfusion!" |
| 21:56.51 | levi | Heh, ZZT. |
| 21:56.58 | vontrapp | though i'm still not sure if that really counted as OOP |
| 21:57.00 | sjansen | Java is probably better, Perl is worse. |
| 21:57.02 | hans | at its simplest, an object is data and behavior mixed into one little package. at least, in most languages it is. |
| 21:57.13 | hans | |lart zzt |
| 21:57.43 | hans | my little brothers spent way too much time playing zzt on the computer. (Computer time was a competition at our house) |
| 21:58.16 | levi | beandog: There's a little description of what an object is on that link I gave you if you hit the 'previous page' link. |
| 21:58.29 | sjansen | Learning OO with C is definetly not the best way, although it makes it easy to understand what's happening in the background in other languages. |
| 21:58.42 | vontrapp | and hans is forever bitter because he wanted to code his chase program in basic |
| 21:58.48 | vontrapp | ;) |
| 21:59.09 | beandog | So, basically, separation is something like where the frontend knows how to display the data, and the backend actually does all the work? |
| 21:59.23 | sjansen | exactly |
| 21:59.36 | sjansen | makes maintenance and re-use much easier |
| 21:59.49 | beandog | Ok. Yah, that is how I code my stuff. :) Makes it TONS easier. |
| 21:59.55 | levi | Simple intro to OOP: http://www.softwaredesign.com/objects.html |
| 22:00.37 | hans | vontrapp: no, see, I _did_ do it in basic. My lifetime goal as a teenager was to do it in C |
| 22:00.42 | hans | or C++ |
| 22:00.47 | hans | or some _real_ language |
| 22:01.08 | vontrapp | right, i know you did. i just meant that that's what you wanted the computer time for that you didn't get enough of |
| 22:01.09 | beandog | levi: aaaaaaaaaaaah, thanks, that 2nd one makes sense. |
| 22:01.45 | hans | well if borland's compiler and manuals weren't so cryptic I would have had more time programming and less time fiddling and cursing, and I wouldn't have minded so much. :) |
| 22:02.10 | hans | but admit it, you got lots of candy thanks to chase. |
| 22:02.18 | vontrapp | heh, yeah, i remember some greivious troubles with that compiler |
| 22:02.32 | vontrapp | hans: sure did :) |
| 22:03.02 | stuporglue | NPR is about to run a piece called "A school for hackers" |
| 22:03.12 | hans | when? |
| 22:03.12 | brigham | when is daylight savings time? |
| 22:03.15 | hans | what is it? |
| 22:03.21 | hans | brigham, forget when |
| 22:03.22 | brigham | can do! |
| 22:03.26 | hans | when is dinner |
| 22:03.30 | hans | brigham, forget when |
| 22:03.31 | brigham | done |
| 22:03.32 | hans | when is dinner? |
| 22:04.20 | vontrapp | what? |
| 22:04.34 | joshc | who's on first? |
| 22:04.46 | vontrapp | i don't know |
| 22:05.24 | levi | I learned something interesting the other day. |
| 22:05.33 | Maquis | tensai: i'm glad that you don't think that my unfortunate experiences with VB have destroyed me... |
| 22:06.13 | hans | levi: you learn something new every day. That's why we like you |
| 22:06.16 | levi | One of the design goals of Scheme was to investigate object oriented programming, and the minimal amount of language support required for certain OO principles. |
| 22:06.48 | vontrapp | i have to admit, zzt was a help in cultivating my programming interests as a yougen |
| 22:07.09 | tene | zzt? |
| 22:07.25 | vontrapp | old dos game, text based |
| 22:07.32 | levi | tene: ZZT was an adventure game builder with a text-mode graphics interface. |
| 22:07.34 | vontrapp | you could create entire games |
| 22:07.35 | tene | ahh |
| 22:07.45 | vontrapp | and program objects to do special things in it |
| 22:07.48 | hans | it was actually pretty cool. |
| 22:07.52 | levi | It was cool. |
| 22:07.55 | joshc | like EA's Adventure Construction Set? |
| 22:07.57 | hans | in spite of my bitterness. |
| 22:08.02 | levi | My brother and I both enjoyed playing with it. |
| 22:08.11 | levi | Though we often fought over computer time, too. |
| 22:08.43 | levi | Never used Adventure Construction Set. I had the Pinball Construction Set, though. That was cool. :) |
| 22:08.46 | joshc | they teach oo w/ scheme at ucb |
| 22:09.11 | joshc | first cs major course |
| 22:09.19 | sjansen | Wanna talk bitter? If I could, I'd go back and kick the sales critter that told me OO was dying. Repeatedly. In the shins. Until he couldn't walk. |
| 22:09.33 | hans | vontrapp: I vaguely remember scoffing at liero too, once upon a time |
| 22:09.44 | hans | so I wasn't always the perfect judge. :) |
| 22:09.48 | levi | Now that I've got over my geeky desire to learn 'real' languages, I think Scheme as an intro language is a great idea. |
| 22:09.53 | joshc | sjansen, you should kick yourself for listening to a sales critter |
| 22:10.09 | joshc | its a hard class - many, many people fail it |
| 22:10.23 | joshc | and it requires a pre-test to even get in it |
| 22:10.46 | sjansen | I was ~ 14. It was my family's first real computer. We though that a computer sales person would know something. |
| 22:10.46 | levi | Well, I don't think an intro to programming with Scheme HAS to be hard. |
| 22:11.03 | sjansen | Needless to say, I've learned much since then. |
| 22:11.05 | joshc | doesnt have to be. |
| 22:11.39 | hans | sjansen: and he knew what OO was? |
| 22:11.48 | levi | With a tool like DrScheme and a good text, learning the basics of programming could be pretty pleasant. |
| 22:11.53 | hans | why does it matter that he told you it was dying? did you miss a chance to learn it? or are you disappointed? |
| 22:11.55 | beandog | sjansen: what was dying? |
| 22:11.55 | sjansen | hans: obviously not |
| 22:12.00 | joshc | but it can be. you ever read abelson and sussmen? |
| 22:12.00 | vontrapp | sjansen: why was he telling you how OO was dying? were you planning on getting scheme with the computer or something? |
| 22:12.32 | levi | joshc: I haven't read all of SICP, but I've started to. |
| 22:12.38 | sjansen | C++ actually. Instead I ended up buying Future Basic. Which I'm sure you've all heard of because it was _so_ useful. |
| 22:12.55 | sjansen | beandog: OO - Object Oriented programming |
| 22:13.02 | joshc | levi: then you know what i mean. of course, there is harvey's 'simply scheme' which is actually meant for children. good book. |
| 22:13.14 | hans | hah |
| 22:13.17 | levi | sjansen: Obviously Future Basic has a brighter future than C++. Just look at the name! |
| 22:13.33 | vontrapp | ah, and perhaps you wouldn't be so bitter about C++ now either if not for that sales critter |
| 22:13.55 | joshc | well, c++ is kind of a messed up language though - most people agree.. |
| 22:14.08 | joshc | super useful, but kind of messed up as far as languages go |
| 22:14.10 | levi | joshc: Yeah. SICP is definitely not for the faint of heart, or mathematically challenged. The PLT people are working on a curriculum for teaching programming to High School students with Scheme, and apparently they've had some pretty good success. |
| 22:14.30 | joshc | levi: yes, i think thats a great idea. |
| 22:14.40 | joshc | i think all cs depts should start w/ a scheme course |
| 22:14.59 | joshc | to get everyones head straightened out before they move on to 'real' languages |
| 22:15.12 | joshc | and i think they should seriously consider banning java until upper division |
| 22:15.29 | joshc | they are raising a generation of memory management misfits. |
| 22:15.33 | levi | I remember helping roommates who took intro to programming courses. 'real' languages are full of syntax, which is just confusing when you're trying to learn the basics of program flow. |
| 22:16.05 | sjansen | joshc: to say nothing over people that think over-engineering is good |
| 22:16.15 | levi | Heaven forbid anyone try to teach perl as an intro to programming language. |
| 22:16.22 | sjansen | heh |
| 22:16.35 | sjansen | Ruby would actually be a decent chose for those that fear parens. |
| 22:16.38 | levi | Not that I'd discourage them from learning it afterwards, if they wanted. |
| 22:16.39 | hans | if I were to privately teach someone today, I'd probably pick ruby or C |
| 22:17.17 | joshc | C should definitely be a required language - everyone *must* understand how to manage their own memory |
| 22:17.37 | joshc | then you can go ahead with whatever managed language you want.. |
| 22:17.50 | sjansen | and enjoy it that much more |
| 22:18.03 | levi | The nice thing about teaching with Scheme is it's got DrScheme. It takes care of matching parentheses, and it has modes in which limited languages features are available and you can step through the code to see exactly what substitutions are taking place. |
| 22:18.05 | hans | if this someone were a serious programmer, I'd start with C |
| 22:18.32 | joshc | emacs takes care of parens matching.. |
| 22:18.36 | joshc | never used dr scheme |
| 22:19.12 | levi | joshc: It's a really nifty tool for learning/teaching scheme. |
| 22:19.29 | levi | Lets you get right to the programming... no worrying about compiling or linking or anything. |
| 22:19.54 | joshc | scheme is an intrepreted language...wouldnt need to do any of that anyway..right? ;-) |
| 22:20.09 | levi | Scheme is sometimes compiled, actually. |
| 22:20.36 | joshc | i have no doubt you *can* compile it |
| 22:20.42 | levi | I think there's a compiler in the plt scheme family. |
| 22:20.45 | joshc | but i dont believe it is meant to be |
| 22:21.29 | goozbach | my intro to programming class a 1100 level class was VB.net |
| 22:21.45 | *** join/#utah drewbono (~andrew@byu176783wks.rn.byu.edu) |
| 22:22.07 | levi | Anyway, DrScheme/PLT has extensions to do network programming, graphics programming, GUI stuff, etc. So you can start with the totally basic environment and still get programs that are interesting to non-math people out of it. |
| 22:23.32 | levi | Oh, it's also got some cool features that will draw arrows in your source code to show where variables are bound and that sort of thing. |
| 22:24.20 | levi | So you get a concrete visual representation of how variable bindings work with lexical scoping. |
| 22:25.15 | joshc | that sounds like a great teaching tool |
| 22:25.34 | stuporglue | http://audio.kuer.org:8000/high - NPR has a piece on "the hackadamy" right now |
| 22:25.47 | levi | I was amazed when I looked at it a few weeks ago after not having seen it for a few years. They've made a lot of improvements. |
| 22:27.20 | levi | Anyway, I think the minimal syntax of Scheme and its full set of programming language features make it an ideal language to learn those in. Then you can go learn syntax of whatever other language you're interested in, and you'll know how to use most of it. |
| 22:28.08 | sjansen | the only problem is that functional programming is so radically different |
| 22:28.36 | sjansen | you need a good introduction, and I've never gone looking for one so I don't know where they are |
| 22:28.42 | joshc | thats not a problem imo |
| 22:29.24 | sjansen | it is if you already know a procedural language and are too proud to relearn looping, etc. |
| 22:29.27 | joshc | scheme teaching abstract computer science concepts - good foundation for any type of software engineering |
| 22:29.50 | vontrapp | how would one dump a stream for later listening? |
| 22:29.51 | levi | You don't have to do functional programming in Scheme. It's just that usually Scheme is used to teach functional programming. |
| 22:30.18 | joshc | its moot unless you are still in school |
| 22:30.41 | joshc | once you are out in the 'real world' going back and trying to re-train yourself by learning scheme isnt going to help |
| 22:31.36 | levi | joshc: I think it's helpful to me. |
| 22:32.14 | joshc | ok. |
| 22:32.21 | joshc | ;-) |
| 22:32.30 | hans | of course, levi is a cs theory junky |
| 22:32.38 | hans | ~spell junkie |
| 22:32.39 | ibot | 'junkie' may be spelled correctly |
| 22:33.14 | levi | If you know scheme, you're ahead of the game when your favorite language gets a new feature that scheme already has. ;) |
| 22:35.36 | joshc | Introduction To Algorithms , by Cormen, Leiserson, and Rivest. |
| 22:35.42 | joshc | if your a cs theory junkie |
| 22:36.03 | joshc | it's a hardcore introduction |
| 22:37.07 | sjansen | ping |
| 22:37.14 | levi | pong |
| 22:37.20 | joshc | game |
| 22:37.33 | joshc | on |
| 22:39.01 | joshc | levi, you might also want to review the complete lecture notes, including homework assigments of the upper div algorithms course here: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~vazirani/s99cs170/ |
| 22:39.14 | joshc | you could spend a long, long time and have a lot of fun going through those. |
| 22:39.16 | levi | Oh, nice. :) |
| 22:40.18 | joshc | of course, i got my butt soundly kicked in that course (well, relatively speaking..) but i really enjoyed the NP-completeness section, and of course the software projects |
| 22:40.53 | joshc | this looks like a 1999 course, but i'm sure its nearly identical to the one i took |
| 22:41.22 | levi | Ahh... they used to use that textbook at BYU, but they switched by the time I took the algorithms class. |
| 22:42.00 | joshc | its a very good text book |
| 22:43.24 | joshc | looks like a bunch of the links are broken on that particular page - you may want to google elsewhere around uc berkeley and see what you can find. |
| 22:44.13 | levi | I have Algorithms in C by Robert Sedgewick, and a textbook from my CS course whose title and authors I can't remember. |
| 22:45.33 | joshc | most of my textbooks got 'lost' when i 'donated' them to the company library. |
| 22:45.46 | levi | Heh. Oops. |
| 22:45.53 | joshc | of course, i didnt really donate them..and they didnt really get lost.. |
| 22:48.55 | beandog | meh |
| 22:49.04 | beandog | When is someone going to actually do a REAL interview with Bill Gates? |
| 22:49.07 | beandog | http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/4215183.stm |
| 22:51.16 | beandog | Journalism has become yet another medium for advertisement. |
| 22:51.33 | joshc | i think it has always been that way. mostly. |
| 22:51.58 | Maquis | my first programming class was VB... senior year of high school... i do *not* recommend that... |
| 22:52.14 | beandog | high school or vb? |
| 22:52.44 | Maquis | thankfully, i had a teacher who was actually programmed c/c++ (school wouldn't let her teach those) so she tried to teach good coding habits regardless of the language |
| 22:52.45 | beandog | I had a Turbo Pascal class in high school... on Macs. :) |
| 22:52.47 | Maquis | beandog: vb |
| 22:59.35 | levi | beandog: Pascal was the system programming language for the old MacOS. |
| 22:59.37 | joshc | ttyl |
| 22:59.39 | *** part/#utah joshc (~josh@jcoates.org) |
| 23:00.36 | tensai | jsmith: is there a trick to getting asterisk to listen for iax connections? it doesn't seem to open a listen socket. |
| 23:03.30 | beandog | heh |
| 23:03.54 | vontrapp | goozbach: what did you do to their internet? |
| 23:04.09 | vontrapp | that wasn't very nice |
| 23:04.29 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 23:05.05 | Maquis | goozbach: what'd you do? |
| 23:05.21 | goozbach | dax rebooted the AP |
| 23:05.27 | goozbach | it did nothing to me |
| 23:05.31 | Maquis | why? |
| 23:05.40 | goozbach | high ping times/mucho lago |
| 23:05.41 | vontrapp | cause he's tethered? |
| 23:06.41 | Maquis | isn't there a better solution than rebooting? |
| 23:06.43 | sjansen | 'cause he's lucky |
| 23:07.04 | goozbach | that's what I get for using a thinkpad |
| 23:07.05 | sjansen | ~lart Wireless cards, Debian, and hans for good measure |
| 23:07.07 | goozbach | :) |
| 23:07.33 | sjansen | bah, it's just 'cause Dax has a thinkpad too that you're safe |
| 23:07.33 | erj | thinkpad++ |
| 23:08.01 | goozbach | ~praise erj for using a 'rea' laptop |
| 23:08.03 | ibot | All hail erj for using a 'rea' laptop! |
| 23:08.08 | goozbach | er real |
| 23:08.22 | erj | haha |
| 23:08.26 | tene | goo: if you don't like it, just give it to me. |
| 23:08.58 | goozbach | don't like it? I love it |
| 23:09.07 | goozbach | I'm praising all who use thinkpads |
| 23:09.22 | goozbach | it was soo worth the money spent |
| 23:10.18 | erj | hehe, for those of us who actually had to spend it :-) |
| 23:10.43 | *** part/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@obelix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 23:10.52 | stuporglue | I'm sad IBM's getting rid of them...If I ever bought a non Apple, I was going to get one. |
| 23:11.25 | stuporglue | Hopefully right after graduation. |
| 23:12.36 | hans | jsmith: ping |
| 23:12.57 | tene | goo: no you don't. you hate it and want to give it away. |
| 23:13.32 | mrpull_ | i still have my Thinkpad A21m up for grabs. |
| 23:13.56 | mrpull_ | best reasonable offer (I should really post it to craigslist) |
| 23:14.25 | tene | Ooo... |
| 23:14.52 | Maquis | i think when i get a new laptop, i'll probably either go for an apple, or for another toshiba |
| 23:15.00 | Maquis | more likely a toshiba |
| 23:15.40 | tene | I don't know what would be reasonable for that though, mrpull. |
| 23:17.01 | tene | $500-$700 according to First Hit On Google |
| 23:17.08 | sjansen | ~lart Orinoco |
| 23:17.22 | goozbach | ~mock sjansen and emcnabb |
| 23:17.24 | ibot | ACTION pulls sjansen and emcnabb's pants down and shows the world sjansen and emcnabb's pink spotted underwear |
| 23:17.43 | Maquis | :) |
| 23:18.02 | Maquis | |lart sjansen for fun |
| 23:19.09 | goozbach | |rock out to Green Day |
| 23:20.53 | levi | Ew, Green Day. |
| 23:21.11 | vontrapp | Boulevard of Broken Dreams is a pretty good song |
| 23:22.46 | goozbach | Jesus of Suburbia is a good one |
| 23:22.54 | sjansen | Anyone got a dead chicken? |
| 23:22.58 | goozbach | as is She's a Rebel |
| 23:23.37 | goozbach | !a dead chicken |
| 23:24.23 | goozbach | thanks |
| 23:25.41 | tene | !a boot to the head. That's what happens when people don't do things |
| 23:26.50 | tene | ouch, that's parsed differently than I thought it was. |
| 23:27.31 | Maquis | what happened to usr/bin/perl / santabot? |
| 23:28.30 | levi | I hate Boulevard of Broken Dreams. Why did Green Day have to go and get all pretentious? |
| 23:30.22 | hans | Maquis: he got kickbanned. :) |
| 23:30.45 | hans | levi: what makes it pretentious? |
| 23:31.53 | *** join/#utah h3k (~h3k@c-67-166-96-82.client.comcast.net) |
| 23:32.44 | levi | hans: It's all slow and metaphorical and stuff. |
| 23:33.15 | goozbach | they _did_ jump on the "I'm a celeb and gonna bash on the president" club |
| 23:33.28 | goozbach | s/club/bandwagon/ |
| 23:33.32 | Maquis | ||jkhjkhjkhjh |
| 23:33.36 | h3k | ? |
| 23:33.37 | levi | Well, I don't care about that, I just don't like their new music. |
| 23:33.44 | tene | OMG HES NOT PERFECT THAT MAKES HIM HITLER AND STALIN AND MY FOURTH GRADE TEACHER THAT WAS MEAN TO ME!!! |
| 23:34.01 | levi | I didn't like their old music all that much either, but at least it was more fun to listen to. |
| 23:34.04 | hans | my fourth grade teacher was nice. it was third grade... |
| 23:34.10 | Maquis | |lart stupid broken ethernet cord |
| 23:34.19 | goozbach | I kinda like their new softer stuff |
| 23:34.24 | sjansen | third and fourth were great, second was incompetent |
| 23:34.44 | Maquis | h3k: that was me trying to get my computer to talk to the internet |
| 23:35.09 | goozbach | ssh lag |
| 23:35.13 | h3k | ic |
| 23:35.16 | goozbach | it happens to me all the time |
| 23:35.52 | levi | What was really annoying was the Boulevard of Broken Dreams/Wonderwall mashup that KJQ played a lot before it died. |
| 23:36.02 | levi | And it was an awful earworm, too. |
| 23:38.44 | goozbach | I actually liked that mix |
| 23:39.16 | levi | Wonderwall was an awful song, too. Bleagh. |
| 23:39.29 | levi | Why in the world did Green Day remake themselves as Oasis? |
| 23:40.04 | levi | The song they mixed in at the end was the only good part of the mashup. |
| 23:43.16 | levi | Well, you guys enjoy your Green Day. I'll enjoy my Shins, and we'll all be happy. :) |
| 23:43.56 | goozbach | heh |
| 23:46.53 | jsmith | hans: Pong! |
| 23:48.28 | h3k | wha who |
| 23:48.43 | levi | Eh? |
| 23:48.44 | hans | tensai and I are trying to set up an IAX cahnnel |
| 23:48.58 | jsmith | hans: Cool... |
| 23:48.58 | hans | and we are getting nowhere. what besides iax.conf do you need to set up? |
| 23:49.05 | jsmith | hans: Just iax.conf |
| 23:49.59 | jsmith | For Bob to call Alice, Bob dials (IAX2/username:password@Alice) |
| 23:50.22 | jsmith | Where username:password are defined in a user on Alice's iax.conf |
| 23:50.51 | h3k | wha iax, for voip? |
| 23:51.08 | jsmith | h3k: IAX = Inter-Asterisk eXchange protocol |
| 23:51.24 | jsmith | h3k: How Asterisk boxen communicate with each other |
| 23:51.25 | h3k | yeah, a lot of the time it's used for talkin online though |
| 23:51.33 | h3k | for different voip apps |
| 23:51.34 | jsmith | h3k: Yes. |
| 23:51.39 | tensai | jsmith: our problem is neither box is opening a listen port. doesn't make sense. |
| 23:52.10 | jsmith | tensai: Firewall? SELinux? Is chan_iax2 loading? |
| 23:52.11 | vontrapp | hehe, heck yes! *gulp* |
| 23:52.16 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@byu-gw.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 23:52.23 | jsmith | vontrapp: Nice one! |
| 23:52.32 | tensai | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:53.00 | jsmith | tensai: Did you try "bind=<ip addr>" in iax.conf? |
| 23:53.01 | tensai | I get one warning about a timing device not found (I have no zaptel interfaces) |
| 23:53.15 | h3k | ahhh, there we go |
| 23:53.18 | jsmith | tensai: You need to install ztdummy -- (uncomment it from the Zaptel makefile) |
| 23:53.26 | *** join/#utah findlay (~justin@65.203.174.134) |
| 23:53.34 | jsmith | tensai: Then modprobe the ztdummy module |
| 23:53.49 | jsmith | h3k: It's too bad realtime isn't done yet -- the current DB stuff is such a hack |
| 23:53.59 | h3k | hehe |
| 23:54.23 | tensai | oops. thought I already loaded that. |
| 23:54.35 | tensai | now there's no warnings but it's still not listening |
| 23:54.44 | jsmith | tensai: You probably modprobed zaptel, but not ztdummy |
| 23:54.55 | h3k | jsmith i just re-coded my package system to perl and switched over to sql for the repo, it was in python, originally done in bash |
| 23:55.02 | tensai | ztdummy 3620 0 |
| 23:55.02 | tensai | zaptel 220548 5 ztdummy |
| 23:55.18 | jsmith | tensai: That looks good. |
| 23:55.31 | jsmith | tensai: Did you try hard-coding the IP in iax.conf? |
