| 00:03.52 | *** part/#utah spig_ (~spig_@stet.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 00:08.16 | *** join/#utah spig (~spig_@stet.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 00:11.51 | neybar_work | what is the name of the new debian installer? |
| 00:12.16 | Jayce^ | if you get the testing netinstall, that's it.. |
| 00:13.26 | neybar_work | yeah, that's the one, I wasn't sure. |
| 00:14.24 | neybar_work | does webmin have a tool for admining iptables that is semi usable by a novice? |
| 00:15.01 | *** join/#utah byronc (~byron@209.197.11.63) |
| 00:37.45 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@byu-gw.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 00:53.28 | hans | I was hoping that the cash register prog would run on this bartspe thing, so I wouldn't have to set up this laptop to dual-boot (which will be a real pain since parted refuses to play with the partitions) |
| 00:53.42 | hans | say, does someone have a partitionmagic CD they could bring to plug on wed? |
| 01:03.56 | spig | why not use partimaged or an open source partition tool - knoppix has a great one that is on the cd or featherlinux I believe has one as well |
| 01:04.12 | spig | that way no one is breaking their license with Symantec.. |
| 01:04.19 | hans | parted won't do it |
| 01:04.33 | hans | I've tried to finnesse it. no luck |
| 01:04.48 | hans | I don't understand it - it's just a standard ext3 setup |
| 01:04.55 | hans | is there something other than parted? |
| 01:05.00 | Maquis | hans: i know the uug has one, but i don't know whether they can take it, or anything |
| 01:05.34 | Maquis | i know they have rather strict requirements about the use, and when we have installfests, we can't install it on people's computers, unless we remove it immediately (ie, the computer won't boot from it)... |
| 01:05.58 | Maquis | but amcnabb and spr should know what the terms are on it... (and they also know where it is) |
| 01:06.38 | hans | this is a linux install (or rather the preservation thereof) so I imagine it would qualify for use. |
| 01:06.49 | Maquis | hans: i think so... |
| 01:06.55 | Maquis | i just don't know well enough to say for sure... |
| 01:07.05 | Maquis | they gave it to the uug under specific conditions... |
| 01:07.28 | Maquis | if you see spr later this evening, you could ask him... |
| 01:07.30 | bdogg | so yeah slcc couldn't be a better school to do generals at |
| 01:07.59 | bdogg | no ones does |
| 01:08.04 | bdogg | cept english majors |
| 01:08.11 | Maquis | i didn't mind them the first 2 years |
| 01:08.15 | bdogg | and humanities students |
| 01:08.16 | bdogg | :D |
| 01:08.19 | Maquis | i've just been losing motivation for them every semester |
| 01:08.25 | bdogg | I will be done after this semester |
| 01:08.57 | Maquis | ~lart mheath |
| 01:09.06 | mheath | Haha. |
| 01:11.32 | Maquis | ~lart professors who are so focused on getting the little "spiritually enlightening" check on their review that they seem to sacrifice the subject that they're teaching... |
| 01:11.45 | Maquis | it? |
| 01:12.28 | sjansen | the hose |
| 01:12.41 | Maquis | oh... i missed the middle section |
| 01:12.58 | sjansen | unless someone knows how to strangle with a blast of water from a fire hose |
| 01:13.00 | Maquis | maybe it should be changed to say "then strangles "them" or "him" with it |
| 01:14.51 | sjansen | that'd take a pretty high level of AI |
| 01:15.37 | mheath | No, simply sticking "them" in there would be grammtically correct in most circumstances and negligible otherwise. |
| 01:16.46 | bdogg | maquis is hating spiritual stuff |
| 01:16.53 | sjansen | %lart mheath |
| 01:17.13 | hans | them would only be correct with p0lurals |
| 01:17.14 | sjansen | mheath: nope, doesn't seem to work |
| 01:17.30 | sjansen | hans: oh, so only use them when the lart ends in s |
| 01:17.36 | sjansen | %lart hans |
| 01:17.44 | hans | hey I'm not saying how to do AI here ;-) |
| 01:18.14 | hans | just switch to a language that supports gender-inspecific personal pronouns |
| 01:18.17 | hans | ~lart english |
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| 01:19.49 | vontrapp | any one know how to search for a sequence in hexedit? |
| 01:20.52 | hans | xxd foo | grep "ab4e" |
| 01:20.58 | hans | ;-) |
| 01:21.04 | hans | ~lart vontrapp |
| 01:25.20 | vontrapp | ~lart hans |
| 01:27.41 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@byu074602wks.rn.byu.edu) |
| 01:27.48 | sjansen | should be able to use forward slash, just make sure your in the left column |
| 01:28.07 | sjansen | Well, I'm off to play at Home Depot. Toodles. |
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| 01:39.47 | LeviHome | Mmm, mango lassi. |
| 01:40.32 | *** part/#utah spig (~spig_@stet.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 01:41.53 | bdogg | what is that line from on sjansen's quit message? |
| 01:42.42 | mheath | Certainty of death. Small chance of success. What are we waiting for?" |
| 01:42.46 | mheath | +" |
| 01:42.48 | mheath | ? |
| 01:42.55 | bdogg | yeah |
| 01:42.58 | bdogg | sounds like a movie line |
| 01:43.06 | mheath | I don't think it is |
| 01:43.32 | Newsome | Gimli says it in Return of the King |
| 01:43.56 | Newsome | (at least in the movie version) |
| 01:47.01 | mheath | Wow. I just found one of my old CD-RW disks... |
| 01:47.12 | mheath | My CD-RW drive can't write slow enough for these. |
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| 02:57.54 | findlay | *: hello |
| 03:11.43 | mheath | Eh, I was looking at some online courses in Japanese... |
| 03:11.55 | mheath | The've got this corny, overdone video series on there as part of it |
| 03:12.17 | mheath | One part, it shows some guy getting off an airplane, and he says "Oh...Where can I find a telephone" in a VERY british accent |
| 03:12.29 | mheath | "David is an American who has come to Japan to.." |
| 03:18.01 | *** join/#utah spr (~spr@c-67-161-219-228.client.comcast.net) |
| 03:19.19 | *** join/#utah xbmodder (~xbmodder@adsl-67-119-12-232.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) |
| 03:38.13 | Maquis | spr: how many cds should i burn? and which ones? |
| 03:38.40 | Maquis | (ie, is one person doing just fc1? |
| 03:40.31 | spr | Maquis, just hold off for now. We're only going to do fc3 if you want to burn some |
| 03:41.42 | spr | Maquis, we may not need so many cds, so don't burn many |
| 03:42.45 | findlay | Maquis: you need to burn volumes 1-50 of the distro CDs |
| 03:43.56 | Maquis | ooh... i typed the wrong thing... wasn't thinkign fc1 vs fc3.. i was thinking cd1, cd2, cd3.. |
| 03:45.54 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@208.186.134.102) |
| 03:57.08 | Maquis | spr: 10-15? |
| 04:07.09 | *** join/#utah minam (~jgb3@c-67-166-99-64.client.comcast.net) |
| 04:11.12 | findlay | Maquis: and if there's any left over, we should go door to door offering to avail people of the evil on their comupter that is M$ and it's gamut of parasitic cyberlifeforms by forcing them to install FC3 |
| 04:11.27 | findlay | (: |
| 04:11.59 | Maquis | ~lart findlay |
| 04:12.27 | findlay | ahh, I can't move |
| 04:17.00 | *** join/#utah SpecialK (~scott@216.126.221.115) |
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| 05:17.43 | goozbach | ~lart windows |
| 05:17.49 | goozbach | ~lart windows |
| 05:18.04 | *** part/#utah goozbach (~goozbach@207.108.175.219) |
| 05:18.51 | *** join/#utah goozbach (~goozbach@207.108.175.219) |
| 05:21.11 | mheath | This is a pain |
| 05:21.39 | goozbach | ~lart goozbach for saying yes to the question "will you fix my computer?" |
| 05:21.45 | mheath | Try learning Japanese from a video thats been uber compresesd into realplayer format, to the point where you have to strain to understand anything |
| 05:21.52 | goozbach | hah |
| 05:21.59 | mheath | And it's a rather silly video, too. |
| 05:22.00 | xbmodder | "hey I'm bored...Haley know i likes her Andshe sorta kinda hates to be liked by me. Tho i still like her. Life is good." |
| 05:22.11 | xbmodder | thats me :) |
| 05:22.18 | mheath | At the very end he flies back to his hotel on a decorative rake he got from a festival. |
| 05:22.27 | mheath | You heard me. Flies back to his hotel on a decorative rake. |
| 05:22.38 | goozbach | best way to learn a language is just moving to a foregin country and not talking to anyone who speaks english |
| 05:22.43 | findlay | xbmodder: where are you at? |
| 05:22.50 | xbmodder | california |
| 05:22.54 | mheath | goozbach: hahah, indeed |
| 05:22.57 | xbmodder | :) |
| 05:23.09 | goozbach | es como aprendi espanol |
| 05:23.17 | xbmodder | 14 year old who lives in paradise. lotsa hot girls but none to date :) |
| 05:23.20 | findlay | xbmodder: this is Utah here |
| 05:23.31 | findlay | don't know what I meant by all of that |
| 05:23.33 | xbmodder | ? |
| 05:23.37 | goozbach | I didn't eat if i couldn't say tengo hambre |
| 05:23.41 | xbmodder | i know its utah |
| 05:23.43 | xbmodder | #utah! |
| 05:23.45 | xbmodder | grr |
| 05:23.53 | findlay | oh well, I;ve got way too much homework to do |
| 05:23.57 | goozbach | ~lart xbmodder's fingers |
| 05:23.58 | mheath | goozbach: After watching this first video... |
| 05:24.05 | xbmodder | grr |
| 05:24.06 | goozbach | that fits |
| 05:24.09 | mheath | I can now ask for primitive directions, ask where something is... |
| 05:24.15 | xbmodder | why you lart me for that |
| 05:24.17 | mheath | Say "Traffic Light" and "Intersection" |
| 05:24.33 | goozbach | mheath: just watch a bunch of anime |
| 05:24.39 | goozbach | without dubbing |
| 05:24.53 | goozbach | you'll get the gist of most of it |
| 05:24.55 | mheath | And have learned that men named David can, when lost, fly back to their hotels |
| 05:25.04 | mheath | On decorative rakes purchased at festivals. |
| 05:25.19 | findlay | anyone who has never heard Karajan's 1978 recording of Brahms' 4th symphony has been deprived |
| 05:25.23 | goozbach | I had learned a bit watching GITS and Akria back when |
| 05:25.37 | mheath | "Well, I'm lost. And theres no one to ask for help (MAYBE this would have something to do with the fact that he was standing in a small back alley at the time...)" |
| 05:25.58 | mheath | "This rake is supposed to bring good luck, lets give it a try." <Over-done waving of the rake> |
| 05:26.10 | goozbach | I'll keep in mind to buy a decorative rake when I go to japan |
| 05:26.13 | mheath | Rake: "OK, david, I'll take you back to your hotel." |
| 05:26.22 | goozbach | so that I might fly back to my hotel when I get lost |
| 05:26.33 | mheath | The rake can talk, see. And in English.....despite the fact that it's a Japanese rake in a "LEarn Japanese" video. |
| 05:27.04 | goozbach | I'm gonna learn japanese. |
| 05:27.10 | mheath | Then he mounts the rake |
| 05:27.19 | mheath | Like a witch would mount a broom in any good movie |
| 05:27.32 | goozbach | after I learn french, german, portugese, and italian |
| 05:27.35 | mheath | And theres korny, inspirational 90's music playing while he flies over the city of Tokyo |
| 05:28.01 | goozbach | I want to learn japanese if only to better enjoy anime |
| 05:28.55 | mheath | I think it will be a long time before I get to the point where I can understand anime |
| 05:30.01 | goozbach | heh |
| 05:30.07 | goozbach | sounds like fun |
| 05:30.29 | findlay | where did all this animie mania come from? |
| 05:31.20 | mheath | I could say like: "bathroom" doko desu ka ? |
| 05:31.32 | mheath | matsui de hidari |
| 05:32.13 | mheath | thats pretty much the extent of my awe-inspiring knowledge of the japanese language |
| 05:32.16 | mheath | Oh |
| 05:32.33 | mheath | mittsu me no shigoo doko desu ka |
| 05:40.55 | xbmodder | ? |
| 05:41.09 | xbmodder | maiku wa baka des |
| 05:41.31 | xbmodder | maiku wa baku to nanu to tee desu |
| 05:41.33 | xbmodder | :) |
| 05:41.48 | xbmodder | if SpecialK heard that i would have been kicked |
| 05:44.06 | xbmodder | ~lart mheath |
| 05:58.42 | mheath | "maiku wa baka des" wa eigo de nan desu ka |
| 06:05.15 | mheath | ... |
| 06:08.17 | goozbach | gotta love microsoft knoledge base... |
| 06:08.51 | goozbach | "problem: I moved my system disk to another computer and it will no longer boot" |
| 06:08.53 | mheath | xbmodder: answer me. |
| 06:09.00 | goozbach | solution: |
| 06:09.04 | goozbach | Replace the problem hardware components in the backup computer with components of the same manufacturer, make, and model as the motherboard in the computer that you are backing up. |
| 06:09.20 | goozbach | WTF? |
| 06:09.30 | goozbach | and If I am upgrading? |
| 06:09.34 | goozbach | what then |
| 06:09.36 | goozbach | ? |
| 06:09.52 | findlay | you're upgrading to Linux, I suppose? |
| 06:10.23 | *** join/#utah synic|h (~synic@c-67-172-242-219.client.comcast.net) |
| 06:10.47 | mheath | Heh, that reminds me. PC Club offers Lindows preinstalled on their computers for free, with an "Upgrade" to Windows XP Pro |
| 06:11.11 | goozbach | findlay: sadly no |
| 06:11.38 | goozbach | it's not my compy, and the person I'm fixing it for forbade me to install linux |
| 06:12.00 | findlay | ha |
| 06:12.20 | findlay | the realities of life |
| 06:12.42 | mheath | goozbach: is the thing trying to boot windows and failing? |
| 06:12.54 | mheath | Or not making it to the windows boot at all? |
| 06:13.17 | findlay | because you should be able to pull any drivers you need from the installer disk |
| 06:14.16 | *** join/#utah linuxalien (~zorb@defiant.star-travel.org) |
| 06:15.55 | mheath | xbmodder: interesting that when you're trying to insult me in Japanese, your grammer is the forms you'd use for politness/formality. |
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| 06:24.36 | Maquis | anyone know if RealRhapsody (from real.com) has a linux version? |
| 06:25.14 | Maquis | my friend has been trying for a while to get the .exe that she can download to work, and i think the version she has is most definitely for windoze |
| 06:26.14 | dataw0lf | most .exes are. |
| 06:26.27 | findlay | Maquis: why does she need Real? Why not Mplayer, helix, xine, et cetera |
| 06:26.28 | linuxalien | I dunno about RealRhapsody, but I've got the Real 10 Player working in Gentoo. |
| 06:26.39 | Maquis | findlay: because she's comfortable with it |
| 06:26.46 | findlay | (: |
| 06:26.51 | Maquis | and it does something with some online music library |
| 06:27.00 | Maquis | she's a newbie |
| 06:27.02 | Maquis | very much |
| 06:27.10 | findlay | well, I know Real has some kind of version of something for Linux |
| 06:27.24 | findlay | Because I've played with it before |
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| 06:27.39 | Maquis | installed at the last installfest, and has managed to stay with it because of stubbornnes on her part, and the fact that i don't mind helping out when i get the chance |
| 06:27.43 | linuxalien | It's just realplayer as far as I know...they're up to version 10 now. |
| 06:27.44 | findlay | Maquis: have her try rhythmbox |
| 06:27.57 | synic|h | Maquis, what did you end up doing about your wireless card? |
| 06:28.02 | findlay | is that the same kind of thing? |
| 06:28.18 | Maquis | synic|h: i've got it going with ndiswrapper |
| 06:28.26 | Maquis | kind of annoyed at the moment still though |
| 06:28.34 | dataw0lf | which card? |
| 06:28.55 | Maquis | wg511 |
| 06:31.37 | findlay | Maquis: have you tried wine? |
| 06:34.43 | Maquis | me? no... with her? i wouldn't do it until i had done it myself |
| 06:35.16 | Maquis | i'm kind of the only point of reference for help most of the time |
| 06:35.29 | findlay | wine may be enough to scare away any newbie |
| 06:35.34 | Maquis | yeah |
| 06:35.49 | Maquis | i don't want to deal with anything that i haven't played with, and that i'm not sure how to do on my own |
| 06:36.36 | Maquis | i think i've frightened her enough simply due to the fact that i don't know how to do a lot of things the graphical way... |
| 06:37.30 | Maquis | when she comes to me for help, sometimes i can say "well, i know there's a nice graphical way to do this, but i don't know what it is. here's the command-line way to do it" |
| 06:40.35 | Maquis | mmmm romantic music... |
| 06:43.41 | findlay | Maquis: what do you mean? |
| 06:43.54 | synic|h | ok... so pretend like I am going to compusa to buy a wireless card tomorrow. |
| 06:44.01 | Maquis | findlay: about the romantic music? |
| 06:44.01 | synic|h | and pretend that I don't care if it's just 802.11b |
| 06:44.05 | synic|h | which one should I get? |
| 06:44.07 | findlay | yeah |
| 06:44.18 | dataw0lf | synic|h: call kryp71k and tell him to give you a deal. |
| 06:44.23 | findlay | synic|h: the one on the left |
| 06:44.26 | Maquis | synic|h: and do you want to be able to have monitor mode, and mac address spoofing and such? |
| 06:44.28 | findlay | door #1! |
| 06:44.30 | synic|h | 'cause I don't think they sell the SMC cards there any more |
| 06:44.38 | synic|h | Maquis, nah |
| 06:44.44 | synic|h | dataw0lf, good idea |
| 06:45.07 | dataw0lf | synic|h: you got his number? |
| 06:45.08 | Maquis | synic|h: then, just make sure that it works with ndiswrapper |
| 06:45.28 | synic|h | dataw0lf, nope |
| 06:45.30 | Maquis | if you don't care about the linux-specific things, you only need ndiswrapper to work |
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| 06:48.22 | *** part/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@byu-gw.customer.csolutions.net) |
| 06:51.04 | findlay | but what about your romantic music? |
| 06:51.22 | Maquis | i've listened to enough today |
| 06:53.13 | Maquis | te extran~o is one of my favorites... |
| 06:53.19 | findlay | songs? like Schumann, Schubert? |
| 06:53.21 | Maquis | good song |
| 06:53.29 | Maquis | no... |
| 06:53.32 | Maquis | not that type |
| 06:53.32 | findlay | Schubert wrote over 600 |
| 06:53.36 | Maquis | although some of those are good too |
| 06:53.48 | Maquis | i'm thinking more along the romantic pop-song line |
| 06:54.00 | findlay | Schubert wasn't late romantic anyway |
| 06:54.03 | *** part/#utah linuxalien (~zorb@defiant.star-travel.org) |
| 06:54.20 | findlay | oh, that. OK |
| 06:54.23 | findlay | (: |
| 06:54.38 | Maquis | what can i say? i'm a girl... it comes with the territory |
| 06:54.50 | findlay | sure |
| 06:55.03 | Maquis | anyway, /me needs sleep badly |
| 06:55.05 | Maquis | gnight all |
| 06:55.08 | findlay | bye |
| 07:04.39 | SpecialK | ~lart Maquis |
| 07:21.21 | findlay | ~lart everybody |
| 07:21.25 | findlay | ~lart everything |
| 07:24.34 | xbmodder | new and improved comcast email: http://xbmodder.us/prank/ |
| 07:39.32 | *** join/#utah synic|h (~synic@c-67-172-242-219.client.comcast.net) |
| 08:41.38 | goozbach | ~lart windows |
| 08:42.07 | goozbach | so this: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314082 was the solution to my problem. |
| 08:42.35 | goozbach | registry hacking... *shudder* I thought I was done with that |
| 08:43.05 | goozbach | and people say linux is harder to maintain. |
| 08:43.42 | goozbach | I empty my nose in their general direction. |
| 13:31.30 | mheath | Anyone here happen to speak Japanese at all? |
| 13:39.55 | bonez39 | chopstix...sake....fuji.....yamaguchi.....that's all I know... |
| 13:52.56 | Maquis | me want sleep sleep |
| 14:53.55 | goozbach | me want sleep more as well |
| 14:54.11 | goozbach | stupid person from IBM calling me so early |
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| 16:03.46 | sjansen | ~praise IBM |
| 16:03.50 | ibot | All hail IBM! |
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| 16:11.43 | natester | any news from the mac expo? |
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| 16:20.18 | goozbach | http://www.usu.edu/webcam/ |
| 16:20.25 | goozbach | lots of snow in logan. |
| 16:21.17 | Jayce^ | lucky.... geez.. |
| 16:21.58 | goozbach | logan is aparently buried |
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| 16:33.58 | sjansen | under hundres of feet of snow |
| 16:36.18 | natester | there's muffin I would rather do than go snow shoing with you |
| 16:36.30 | natester | Jayce^: that's on the commentary |
| 16:36.36 | natester | which I'm sure you watched |
| 16:37.28 | Jayce^ | :) |
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| 16:41.19 | *** join/#utah spr (~spr@128.187.168.155) |
| 16:42.07 | *** join/#utah DallinJones (~dallin@208.186.180.204) |
| 16:46.57 | *** join/#utah jsmith (~jsmith@pip.drs1.omniture.com) |
| 16:47.49 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@166.70.209.101) |
| 16:50.49 | *** join/#utah flyboy^ (~flyboy@69.20.57.22) |
| 16:50.56 | flyboy^ | morning guys. |
| 16:51.21 | flyboy^ | Does anyone know what a 'SIG_0' is? I think it's just null, which defaults to HUP. Can anyone confirm? |
| 16:51.24 | flyboy^ | getpid() = 20357 |
| 16:51.25 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@obelix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 16:51.27 | flyboy^ | open("/proc/20357/stat", O_RDONLY) = 24 |
| 16:51.29 | flyboy^ | read(24, "20357 (java) R 20348 2123 2123 0"..., 4095) = 198 |
| 16:51.32 | flyboy^ | close(24) = 0 |
| 16:51.32 | flyboy^ | Oops. ;) |
| 16:51.34 | flyboy^ | nanosleep({0, 1000}, NULL) = 0 |
| 16:51.37 | flyboy^ | kill(20365, SIG_0) = 0 |
| 16:51.40 | flyboy^ | getpid() = 20357 |
| 16:56.19 | tensai | Name Num Action Description |
| 16:56.24 | tensai | 0 0 n/a exit code indicates if a signal may be sent |
| 16:56.45 | tensai | from kill(1) |
| 16:59.44 | flyboy^ | tensai: Thanks. I was looking in man 7 signal |
| 16:59.54 | flyboy^ | For some reason I didn't get it there. |
| 17:04.57 | tensai | yeah, I don't see it there either. |
| 17:09.03 | flyboy^ | Well, basically I have a java parent that it sending itself that, over and over again. |
| 17:09.03 | flyboy^ | It's a real drag, because that signal is merly a test case. |
| 17:09.24 | flyboy^ | Causing lots of stuck java threads on a server. |
| 17:12.30 | hans | ~jump |
| 17:14.40 | hans | ~welcome DallinJones |
| 17:14.42 | ibot | Howdy DallinJones | It is good to see you DallinJones | DallinJones, Sup yo? |
| 17:15.47 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@166.70.209.101) |
| 17:20.29 | hans | http://foxtrot.com/ |
| 17:21.04 | Jayce^ | "what kind of server" |
| 17:38.14 | *** join/#utah markl_ (mark@knm82.knm.org) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 17:39.04 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
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| 17:43.28 | hans | ~hug pgrep |
| 17:43.30 | ibot | ACTION hugs pgrep |
| 17:57.41 | levi | Honda has unveiled their sort-of pickup truck. |
| 18:01.35 | Jayce^ | their own one, or another isuzu co-brand? |
| 18:04.21 | levi | It's their own. |
| 18:04.33 | levi | And it's a pickup truck thing, not an SUV. |
| 18:04.48 | levi | It's more like an Avalanche, though. |
| 18:06.12 | Jayce^ | cool |
| 18:08.46 | goozbach | http://www.wired.com/news/games/0,2101,66225,00.html |
| 18:08.51 | *** join/#utah neybar (~jalance@dsl233.sisna.com) |
| 18:08.54 | DallinJones | Thanks for the warm welcome everyone. |
| 18:10.29 | Jayce^ | yeah, and goozbach remember, I play FPS, and own guns :-p |
| 18:11.11 | goozbach | Jayce^: but you also have paintball to relase some of those tendancys |
| 18:12.26 | Maquis | morning all |
| 18:15.19 | sjansen | ~spell automatically |
| 18:15.19 | ibot | 'automatically' may be spelled correctly |
| 18:17.45 | hans | does using lart in real life count? |
| 18:36.16 | Maquis | hans: :) |
| 18:37.13 | sjansen | He's enjoying the electric violin. |
| 18:37.21 | Maquis | ??? |
| 18:37.25 | sjansen | Anyone that hasn't heard here stuff should go out and buy the CD now. |
| 18:38.16 | sjansen | http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000002SKU/ |
| 18:38.31 | Maquis | but that's expensive |
| 18:38.37 | Maquis | i mean, it costs money! |
| 18:39.00 | sjansen | Maquis: Get a job you leech. |
| 18:39.07 | hans | i thought that was the definition of expensive |
| 18:39.22 | Maquis | hans: that's what i was trying to say... |
| 18:39.32 | sjansen | Sheesh, commie pinko Linux villians think everything should be free. |
| 18:39.33 | hans | yup, almost summer |
| 18:39.49 | Maquis | sjansen: no... just too cheap to actually pay for anything |
| 18:39.53 | hans | pinko? only mandrake users deserve your wrath? |
| 18:40.12 | Maquis | and very happy that i can pull it off without having to deal with illegal downloads... :) |
| 18:40.12 | hans | sjansen: the windows villains are already bankrupt |
| 18:40.44 | hans | yes, linux made me an honest software consumer |
| 18:42.23 | sjansen | Only because your laptop is too underpowered to play DVDs. |
| 18:42.57 | hans | actually, "my" laptop is really my works, and it actually does play DVDs ok, if that's all it's doing. |
| 18:43.07 | Maquis | my laptop plays dvds (well, it did... something's not configured correctly now...) |
| 18:43.10 | hans | but I mostly watch DVDs on the DVD player. |
| 18:44.46 | *** join/#utah xilch (~xilch@66.239.17.228.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 18:45.01 | Maquis | ack! |
| 18:45.01 | Maquis | people in ahhallway cutting off wireless access |
| 18:45.47 | sjansen | Maquis: the first step to overcoming and addiction is admitting you have a problem |
| 18:46.01 | sjansen | IRC during class is not a recipe for academic success. |
| 18:46.18 | Maquis | i'm nitot in class right now |
| 18:46.31 | Maquis | i don't have class til 1:30 today |
| 18:46.42 | Maquis | and it's in 1170, where you can never get internet |
| 18:47.32 | sjansen | Although I did convert three people in that class to Linux... |
| 18:47.47 | Maquis | now, yesterday, i'll admit that i was bad...... |
| 18:47.49 | Maquis | nice |
| 18:48.00 | Maquis | i actually have been working on learning latex |
| 18:48.12 | Maquis | and so, i take notes in religion and civ on my computer |
| 18:49.27 | Maquis | and during civ, if there's nothing important to put down, i might be online... |
| 18:52.23 | Maquis | ack!!! |
| 18:52.46 | Maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:52.46 | Maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:52.46 | Maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:52.46 | Maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:52.46 | Maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:52.48 | Maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:52.57 | bonez41 | sjansen: how could having your laptop out in class cause a repeat? |
| 18:53.04 | Maquis | why doesn't that work??? |
| 18:53.08 | Maquis | bonez41: simple |
| 18:53.14 | Maquis | wireless internet |
| 18:53.16 | sjansen | bonez41: not paying attention |
| 18:53.28 | hans | heck, I wouldn't even need internet to get distracted |
| 18:53.32 | Maquis | :) |
| 18:53.33 | sjansen | Maquis: this was actually before wireless Internet was available on campus |
| 18:53.36 | Maquis | oh... |
| 18:53.59 | Maquis | so, were you working on hw for other classes? |
| 18:54.05 | levi | Maquis: What is your error? |
| 18:54.27 | sjansen | nope |
| 18:54.50 | sjansen | Do yo intend to have (inChar = GET_CHAR > 0) |
| 18:54.56 | levi | . o O ( What could you possibly do on a computer without internet besides homework?) |
| 18:55.03 | hans | young whippersnappers. don't know how to entertain themselves on laptops without net |
| 18:55.04 | Maquis | levi: no errerror, just doesn't work... |
| 18:55.06 | sjansen | Even if you do, it's probably better form to break that into two lines. |
| 18:55.47 | bonez41 | I always got distracted in class...watching the other people......i.e., the girls.. |
| 18:56.07 | goozbach | frozen bubble |
| 18:56.13 | Maquis | sjansen: i'm just stealing that from how they're doing in the code that the rpof wrote |
| 18:56.14 | hans | interactive fiction |
| 18:56.18 | hans | programming |
| 18:56.22 | goozbach | solitare |
| 18:56.25 | hans | preferences tweaking |
| 18:56.32 | goozbach | half-life |
| 18:56.37 | goozbach | doom |
| 18:56.39 | hans | starting flame wars (to be delivered later) |
| 18:56.41 | goozbach | quake |
| 18:56.51 | Maquis | hans: haha :) |
| 18:57.00 | levi | Maquis: If your prof writes code like that, I would not use him as someone to emulate code style of. |
| 18:57.02 | hans | kismet |
| 18:57.18 | Maquis | ipes! this is one of the worst wireless networks i've seen i na while... |
| 18:57.21 | sjansen | levi: how many professors did you ever have that you would emulate their code? |
| 18:57.32 | hans | let me think. none |
| 18:57.47 | levi | sjansen: I don't recall actually seeing code from many of my profs. Mostly it was code that they had TAs write. |
| 18:58.03 | hans | that too. but I did see code from one or two profs, at least briefly |
| 18:58.42 | Maquis | anyway, regardless, why doesn't it see the stupid arrow key??? |
| 18:58.59 | hans | code it to use hjkl and forget arrow keys |
| 18:59.09 | sjansen | Maquis: perhaps you could put a larger chunk on past.lisp and tell how how exactly it isn't working |
| 18:59.27 | Maquis | hans: well, that'd be great, except that this is supposed to be taking text input, and so, it needs to be able to take both text and arrow keys |
| 18:59.41 | Maquis | sjansen: i think that's the only related code... |
| 18:59.43 | levi | Maquis: Do you have to use the macro? |
| 18:59.53 | sjansen | 'cause I wouldn't |
| 19:00.07 | Maquis | levi: i think so... it's to allow the code to be compiled on both windows and linux... |
| 19:00.19 | sjansen | can we see it's definition? |
| 19:00.39 | levi | Maquis: Well, in case the macro is breaking something, I'd split its use out onto a separate line. |
| 19:01.10 | levi | Also, you might try using a debugger. |
| 19:01.14 | hans | Maquis: are you sure you don't want ((foo = GET_CHAR) < bar) |
| 19:01.20 | Maquis | #define GET_CHARgetchar() |
| 19:01.28 | Maquis | hans: i can try that... |
| 19:01.32 | hans | or (foo = (GET_CHAR < bar)) |
| 19:02.12 | Maquis | hans: i want ((foo = GET_CHAR) < bar) |
| 19:02.34 | levi | I forget the precedence of =. |
| 19:03.33 | Maquis | the reason it's #defined is because there are 4 different cases: LCC (windoze compiler), .net and compatible, gcc, and mac... |
| 19:04.08 | hans | they could use this as an opportunity to introduce people to the wonderful insanity of autoconf |
| 19:04.18 | hans | but that would be too mainstream |
| 19:04.24 | Maquis | hans: you mean make files? |
| 19:04.32 | hans | ./configure |
| 19:04.37 | Maquis | dr roper didn't want to use a make file at all |
| 19:04.45 | hans | what? |
| 19:05.27 | Maquis | instead, he just has one big include file that's included by all the other files, and includes everything |
| 19:05.49 | Maquis | dr roper said that makefiles weren't worthwhile for this... |
| 19:06.06 | sjansen | Makefiles are so easy there's never any reason not use them. |
| 19:07.56 | hans | I like him too, but he's wrong |
| 19:08.06 | hans | what's hard about |
| 19:08.13 | hans | foo: bar.c baz.c |
| 19:08.33 | hans | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:08.34 | hans | ? |
| 19:08.44 | Maquis | anyway... |
| 19:09.20 | Maquis | any ideas for getting arrow keys working? |
| 19:09.27 | Maquis | i've got some intersting problems with them |
| 19:09.33 | sjansen | without knowing more about that macro, nope |
| 19:09.48 | Maquis | sjansen: i sent the entirety of the macro... |
| 19:09.58 | Maquis | it just calls getchar() |
| 19:10.47 | sjansen | I'm getting multiple bytes over here |
| 19:11.05 | sjansen | 27 91 68 = left arrow |
| 19:11.18 | sjansen | 27 91 67 = right arrow |
| 19:11.38 | Maquis | mmmk... so, what i heard was that it's supposed to be 2 chars, the first of which would be 224, and the other of which is the rest of it... but that must be wrong |
| 19:12.52 | Newsome | you can also get the values with 'xev' |
| 19:12.58 | sjansen | this is in both gnome-terminal and a vt |
| 19:13.20 | sjansen | Newsome: assuming it only has to work in X, but then she'd have to be using X libraries to get it |
| 19:14.47 | hans | history quiz. what's the major difference(s) between glibc 2.2 and 2.3? |
| 19:15.20 | goozbach | hans: the minor version number |
| 19:15.23 | goozbach | :) |
| 19:15.32 | hans | ~lart goozbach for being so smart |
| 19:16.56 | Maquis | sjansen: mmmk... so, i want to store getchar() into an unsigned int instead of a char? |
| 19:18.01 | hans | Maquis: this one-liner demonstrates your problem. |
| 19:18.10 | hans | int main(void) { printf("%d\n",(unsigned char)getchar()); } |
| 19:18.22 | hans | all arrow keys are 27 |
| 19:19.06 | Maquis | mmmk |
| 19:19.30 | Maquis | so, can i get them as 3 separate chars, or do i have to go through an unsigned int? |
| 19:19.30 | *** join/#utah mrpull (~mrpull@205.158.184.116) |
| 19:21.09 | *** join/#utah synic (~synic@66.239.17.228.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 19:22.01 | *** join/#utah SpecialK (~sjk36@128.187.175.16) |
| 19:22.16 | SpecialK | ~lart Maquis |
| 19:22.49 | hans | int main(void) { |
| 19:22.50 | hans | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:22.50 | hans | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:22.50 | hans | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:22.50 | hans | } |
| 19:23.04 | hans | that will be instructive |
| 19:23.36 | hans | here's another hint. 27 is ESC |
| 19:23.46 | Maquis | hans: question: i just did an interesting thing... |
| 19:23.54 | Maquis | int main(void){ |
| 19:23.54 | Maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:23.57 | Maquis | } |
| 19:23.57 | sjansen | So is anyone else having problems with unbuffered input? |
| 19:24.11 | Maquis | when i did the up-arrow, it gave me: 65 |
| 19:24.11 | Maquis | 91 |
| 19:24.11 | Maquis | 27 |
| 19:24.22 | sjansen | Or specifically, I can't seem to get it. |
| 19:25.03 | hans | sjansen: I'm experiencing it. I wouldn't call it a problem - I just wait until I hit enter to expect anything |
| 19:25.05 | Newsome | sjansen: you have to change the termios attributes |
| 19:25.15 | hans | von would know how to get unbuffered input |
| 19:25.21 | sjansen | Newsome: how do I do that? |
| 19:27.02 | sjansen | interesting, first time I've seen termios |
| 19:27.09 | Newsome | I think using tcgetattr and tcsetattr, but let me double-check |
| 19:27.13 | sjansen | Maquis: Does you professors code have anything like that? |
| 19:27.18 | Maquis | no |
| 19:27.31 | sjansen | Do you have to press enter with his code? |
| 19:27.38 | Maquis | it just reads in an input line, and passes it along to other stuff |
| 19:28.00 | sjansen | from a file or stdin? |
| 19:28.08 | Maquis | sjansen: stdin |
| 19:28.12 | Maquis | we're writing a shell |
| 19:28.15 | sjansen | so you have to hit enter |
| 19:28.20 | Maquis | yeah |
| 19:28.37 | hans | i'm assuming you want to use the arrow keys without hitting enter though? |
| 19:28.40 | Maquis | but i'm trying to add this in the section where it reads in |
| 19:28.40 | sjansen | too bad you can't just use readline, very nice package |
| 19:28.49 | hans | sjansen: that would be too mainstream |
| 19:29.05 | hans | byu is a not-invented-here syndrome school. djb would like it |
| 19:29.14 | Maquis | sjansen: doesn't readline have to end with an enter |
| 19:29.17 | hans | except they don't produce perfect code so he wouldn't fit in. |
| 19:29.30 | sjansen | Maquis: I'm talking about the library |
| 19:30.32 | Maquis | sjansen: in what way? |
| 19:31.06 | sjansen | Nah, not if this has to work .Net |
| 19:31.15 | Maquis | i'm not sure it does |
| 19:31.20 | Maquis | we can pass off on our own computers |
| 19:31.27 | Maquis | and a lot of people are trying to write it in .net |
| 19:31.38 | Maquis | but i'm pretty sure we don't ever have to have it working in .net... |
| 19:32.20 | Maquis | how would it work? |
| 19:33.31 | *** join/#utah byronc (~byron@209.197.11.63) |
| 19:33.57 | Bradipo | lol, nice djb comments hans. :-) |
| 19:34.27 | Bradipo | I would love taking some of djb's classes, if only he taught at BYU. |
| 19:34.36 | dataw0lf | http://www.apple.com/macmini/ |
| 19:35.03 | Maquis | djb? isn't he the one that had that class that got /.ed, where pretty much the entire class failed |
| 19:35.14 | Bradipo | Did the entire class fail? |
| 19:35.19 | Bradipo | I haven't seen any official transcripts. |
| 19:35.32 | Maquis | i haven't either, but they all thought they would |
| 19:35.33 | sjansen | Maquis: yes, also the creator of qmail, djbdns, and some other stuff |
| 19:35.35 | Bradipo | All I've seen was speculation. |
| 19:35.47 | Maquis | sjansen: yeah... i gathered that from the thread... :) |
| 19:35.52 | Bradipo | Clearly they didn't meet the goals of finding 10 bugs. |
| 19:35.56 | Bradipo | But you never know... |
| 19:36.03 | hans | Bradipo: based on the recent bugtraq thing with the results of last semester's grad class, I got the impression that he really does believe he can write perfectly secure code and that everyone else should too. I find that frankly a little disturbing |
| 19:36.27 | Bradipo | hans: have you seen his code? |
| 19:37.06 | Bradipo | Very impressive and cleanly written. |
| 19:37.25 | Bradipo | Best use of UNIX philosophy I have seen in a long time. |
| 19:37.33 | hans | no. and I've no doubt it's very very good. maybe practically perfect. maybe even perfect, who can say? but to expect that the rest of the world can write perfect coe first time out the gate... |
| 19:37.45 | Bradipo | Well, I wouldn't say first time out of the gate. |
| 19:37.55 | sjansen | Bradipo: code cleanlieness isn't the only requirement of secure code |
| 19:38.01 | Bradipo | But the crux of his whole codeing practice is that he wrote it secure once. |
| 19:38.04 | Bradipo | Then he reuses it. |
| 19:38.07 | Maquis | sjansen: you were talking about using readline? |
| 19:38.07 | hans | right, but that's the argument I was hearing in the bugtraq thread |
| 19:38.16 | Bradipo | So obviously anything written with his code will be much more secure. |
| 19:38.22 | Bradipo | Because the base code has been secured. |
| 19:38.47 | Bradipo | sjansen: His code isn't just clean, it *is* secure. |
| 19:38.53 | hans | the whole full disclosure argument - "give us at least a day sheesh" and he saying in response that bad code and bad developers need to be punished. if you don't want to be punished, don't write insecure code. |
| 19:38.55 | sjansen | That's like saying that obviously any program that uses strong crypto will be secure because it uses strong crypto. |
| 19:39.09 | Bradipo | No. |
| 19:39.25 | Bradipo | Secure code and cryptography are entirely different subjects. |
| 19:39.32 | sjansen | No, they aren't. |
| 19:39.35 | Bradipo | Yes, they are. |
| 19:39.46 | sjansen | You can right bug free code and still have serious design problems. |
| 19:40.06 | Bradipo | This is true. |
| 19:40.19 | Bradipo | You have to have a sound design. |
| 19:40.42 | *** join/#utah spig (~spig_@translate.sento.com) |
| 19:40.44 | sjansen | And from what I've heard, djb refuses to acknowledge design problems in his software. |
| 19:40.55 | sjansen | I've seen some listed, but don't remember where. |
| 19:40.57 | dataw0lf | Most security problems will be generated from bugs, not design faults, though. |
| 19:41.10 | sjansen | dataw0lf: Oh, really? |
| 19:41.26 | Bradipo | Depends on what you mean. |
| 19:41.27 | dataw0lf | sjansen: notice the 'Most' there, guy. |
| 19:41.27 | sjansen | I'd call spam the biggest security problem ever discovered. Design issue, not code. |
| 19:41.42 | sjansen | ah, missed that |
| 19:42.00 | dataw0lf | And categorizing Spam as a security problem, I take issue with as well. |
| 19:42.02 | Bradipo | sjansen: spam is clearly design issue, but I don't consider it a security threat. |
| 19:42.03 | dataw0lf | It's obviously a problem. |
| 19:42.03 | Maquis | question: what if somebody had found, exploited and reported a security bug in qmail? would he have been happy with that, or would he've gotten mad at the student, or would he've claimed that the problem didn't exist? |
| 19:42.07 | dataw0lf | and can screw you up. |
| 19:42.08 | Maquis | (in his clasS) |
| 19:42.14 | dataw0lf | but it's not a security problem. |
| 19:42.37 | sjansen | So DoS isn't a security problem? |
| 19:42.41 | Bradipo | spam is thanks to design flaws in smtp, however, if it is such a big design flaw, why don't we replace SMTP with something like IM2000 or other proposed replacements? |
| 19:42.57 | hans | entrenchment |
| 19:43.01 | Bradipo | sjansen: Depends on the nature of the Dos. |
| 19:43.07 | dataw0lf | sjansen: DoS isn't necessariy a security problem either. |
| 19:43.11 | sjansen | And stealing $10 from everyone in the world isn't, but withdrawing $100000000 from one entity is? |
| 19:43.24 | Bradipo | If someone saturates your T1, how is that your security problem? |
| 19:43.45 | sjansen | The point I'm making is, you can't put security into nice little boxes. |
| 19:43.50 | Bradipo | Is there anything that you could have done to keep that T1 from becoming saturated? |
| 19:44.34 | Bradipo | Maquis: Sorry. |
| 19:44.50 | Maquis | tis ok |
| 19:44.54 | Bradipo | Maquis: http://cr.yp.to/qmail/guarantee.html |
| 19:44.56 | Bradipo | Read that. |
| 19:45.10 | sjansen | Bradipo: So the term security only applies to something a sysadmin at the end of the chain can resolve? |
| 19:45.38 | Bradipo | sjansen: Why don't you tell me what security is? |
| 19:45.41 | Maquis | Bradipo: it claims the url is not valid and can't be loaded |
| 19:45.51 | hans | Maquis: it's mostly a moot question. while theoretically possible, the chance that a grad student (even a genius one) would find what so many others have failed to is small. |
| 19:45.54 | spig | Maquis - you on campus? |
| 19:45.56 | Bradipo | Maquis: are you on campus? |
| 19:46.00 | Maquis | spig: yes |
| 19:46.05 | Maquis | Bradipo: same :) |
| 19:46.07 | Bradipo | Maybe BYU is filtering it. |
| 19:46.11 | Maquis | dunno |
| 19:46.15 | Maquis | looks like a firefox issue |
| 19:46.17 | Maquis | but i could be wrong |
| 19:46.22 | Bradipo | hans: Not true. |
| 19:46.32 | Bradipo | If you know what to look for, it becomes easy to find them. |
| 19:46.38 | Bradipo | Unless of course there aren't any to be found. |
| 19:46.38 | sjansen | Bradipo: How about I get back to you with a good definition. My off the cuff would be inadequate. |
| 19:46.42 | hans | sure. so nobody has known what to look for? |
| 19:47.07 | Bradipo | Actually, people do know what to look for. |
| 19:47.08 | Bradipo | Many do. |
| 19:47.13 | Bradipo | blackhats, whitehats. |
| 19:47.15 | hans | i'm talking about qmail here. people had incentive to look for it, and so they have looked |
| 19:47.21 | Bradipo | Oh, qmail. |
| 19:47.35 | Maquis | then why are there still so many security holes in software? if people know what to look for... |
| 19:47.36 | Bradipo | Well, nobody has ever claimed it. |
| 19:47.49 | hans | so lots of eyes many of which have more experience than a grad student. bleak chances for the grad student |
| 19:47.52 | Maquis | and is there any way to prove that a piece of software has no security holes? |
| 19:47.57 | Bradipo | So either people don't care to look or it hasn't been found. |
| 19:48.12 | Bradipo | Think of the prestige one could have by finding such a bug. :-) |
| 19:48.19 | Maquis | hans: it was more a hypothetical question to find out exactly what this guy's character is like, since i know practically nothing about him |
| 19:48.28 | Bradipo | hans: Right, I thought you were talking about security bugs in general. |
| 19:48.44 | Maquis | it seems like the only way that i've ever heard of for proving that security holes don't exist, is the fact that none have been found... |
| 19:48.51 | Maquis | however, i don't believe that that proves anything |
| 19:48.51 | hans | Maquis: yeah. it's hard to imagine that happening, so his response would probably be just as unpredictable unless we know him personally very well |
| 19:48.58 | dataw0lf | Yeah, but think of what you could do by keeping it secret. |
| 19:48.58 | Bradipo | Maquis: proving that software doesn't have any security holes is very difficult. |
| 19:49.28 | Bradipo | dataw0lf: Well, thanks go good software design, the impact would be minimal. |
| 19:49.43 | Bradipo | Which comes back to sjansen's point about good design. |
| 19:50.36 | dataw0lf | I'm not going to get into an argument about 0 day stuff and why it's kept secret versus prestige. |
| 19:50.46 | Maquis | Bradipo: is it possible? |
| 19:50.52 | Maquis | that's my question |
| 19:50.57 | Bradipo | Is what possible? |
| 19:50.59 | hans | Maquis: depends on the software. |
| 19:51.05 | Maquis | i recognize that if it is possible, it's dificult, but i'm not sure that it's possible... |
| 19:51.16 | Maquis | Bradipo: proving that there are no security holes |
| 19:51.16 | Bradipo | Oh, well completely secure, who knows. |
| 19:51.23 | Bradipo | DJB has shown that his C code is very secure. |
| 19:51.35 | Bradipo | By reusing that C code, you can infer that qmail won't have any C related security holes. |
| 19:51.38 | Bradipo | Maybe design flaws. |
| 19:51.54 | sjansen | As long as you use the code correctly. |
| 19:51.57 | Maquis | i can see that, with something really simple like hello world, it may be possible... although i guess that would involve proving that printf is secure... |
| 19:51.59 | Bradipo | But for every piece of software it would be difficult to prove how secure it is. |
| 19:52.09 | sjansen | There's nothing wrong with strcpy, for example, but it's often misused. |
| 19:52.16 | Bradipo | sjansen: Well, having seen and used his code, it is hard to use it incorrectly. |
| 19:52.36 | Bradipo | sjansen: Right, he doesn't have a strcpy. |
| 19:52.39 | dataw0lf | Maquis: but security doesn't apply to a hello world snippet. |
| 19:52.57 | sjansen | Maquis: And for a long time people thought printf was secure, until format string attacks were discovered. |
| 19:53.28 | sjansen | To say nothing of subverting the loader, something that's almost trivial on Windows. |
| 19:53.40 | *** join/#utah bucky (~bucky@67-50-102-213.bras01.mob.ut.frontiernet.net) |
| 19:53.49 | sjansen | So, no, it'd be hard to make even a hello world secure without addressing a giant rats nest of problems. |
| 19:55.14 | Maquis | hmmm |
| 19:55.25 | Maquis | big rat's nest... |
| 19:56.00 | sjansen | dataw0lf: Tha'ts what I'm arguing against. You can't identity parts of a system and say "this part here is where security matters". It's gestalt, but we're not used to thinking of it that way. |
| 19:56.38 | sjansen | New programmers learn about buffer overflows and think they know everything about secure programming. |
| 19:56.47 | dataw0lf | sjansen: I never said that, however, you have to view what is applicable to an attack and what is not. |
| 19:56.55 | sjansen | Then you rock their world when you introduce them to sql injection. |
| 19:57.18 | dataw0lf | both of which are trivial examples of secure programming and exploits. |
| 19:57.59 | sjansen | dataw0lf: Ah, but there's a subtle differences. You're implying a step of "evaluate possible points of attack, prioritze importance, decide to disregard". |
| 19:58.13 | hans | Bradipo: I knew my djb comments would draw you into a discussion. ;-) I found the attitude of his students was amazingly, and amusingly, similar to his own. |
| 19:58.20 | dataw0lf | sjansen: which is what 'security' is. |
| 19:58.35 | hans | but they were less perfect, so it didn't suit them as well. I got a chuckle out of that. |
| 19:59.05 | Newsome | Okay, here's a program that will read from the terminal, and detects multi-char key sequences, etc... |
| 19:59.19 | Newsome | http://www.tuxrocks.com/tmp/get_chars.c |
| 19:59.41 | sjansen | heh, while we argued Newsome did something productive |
| 19:59.50 | Maquis | Newsome: thanks a ton!!! you are officially the coolest person in the world!!! |
| 19:59.55 | neybar | how do I find out what version of a package apt-get (debian) will be installing? specifically I want to install openvpn 2.0 |
| 19:59.59 | hans | I ate lunch. does that count as productive? |
| 20:00.05 | Newsome | :) |
| 20:00.15 | hans | neybar: --dry-run |
| 20:01.03 | hans | Maquis: easy, copy indirectly |
| 20:01.05 | sjansen | Maquis: No he isn't, he chose to use StudlyCaps for his naming |
| 20:01.16 | Maquis | sjansen: huh? |
| 20:01.19 | dataw0lf | hehe |
| 20:01.29 | dataw0lf | int InputChar; |
| 20:01.29 | Maquis | hans: /me likes to actually know what things do though |
| 20:01.30 | dataw0lf | etc |
| 20:01.31 | Newsome | hey, you don't like it, you don't have to use it :) |
| 20:01.52 | Maquis | Newsome: i do like it (i think... haven't looked at it yet), just want to udnerstand it first... |
| 20:01.53 | hans | heh, StudlyCaps |
| 20:02.00 | Maquis | i try to implement things myself separately after getting help |
| 20:02.02 | sjansen | Cool Unix programmers drp ltrs. |
| 20:03.29 | dataw0lf | That's Java-esque |
| 20:03.33 | dataw0lf | :) |
| 20:03.42 | levi | Who capitalizes the first letter, though? |
| 20:04.01 | sjansen | That's the differences between StudlyCaps and camelCase. |
| 20:04.07 | dataw0lf | yeah |
| 20:04.19 | levi | sjansen: Who came up with the name camelCase? |
| 20:04.19 | dataw0lf | I use cClass vVariable etc |
| 20:04.28 | Newsome | people who have been programming in C much longer than Java has been around don't use camelCase |
| 20:04.30 | sjansen | levi: probably the perl world |
| 20:04.37 | hans | why o why does my cups server not pick up the browse broadcasts from the server. they are there on tcpdump. between two debian boxes with the same config it works |
| 20:04.52 | dataw0lf | who does? |
| 20:04.57 | hans | what is rhel3 doing different? is there a version compatibility issue here? |
| 20:05.05 | hans | dataw0lf: microsoft, from what I hear |
| 20:05.08 | dataw0lf | but I was trained on it. |
| 20:05.09 | hans | and probably hungarians. ;-) |
| 20:05.35 | levi | sjansen: Smalltalk uses (by convention, of course) a combination of camelCase and StudlyCaps, but that was certainly before those inane names were invented. |
| 20:05.58 | levi | I hate Hungarian notation. |
| 20:06.10 | dataw0lf | I use my own warped hungarian notation. |
| 20:06.29 | levi | sjansen: You'd really like Forth, then. |
| 20:06.30 | sjansen | Although the whole p thing is annoying. |
| 20:06.42 | levi | sjansen: p thing? |
| 20:06.46 | hans | as in predicate? |
| 20:06.49 | hans | chinese-p? |
| 20:06.58 | levi | That's a Lisp thing. |
| 20:07.02 | hans | I use that some times |
| 20:07.13 | levi | A Lisp convention, that is. |
| 20:07.18 | hans | of course in ruby you just use ? |
| 20:07.26 | Newsome | so, the main idea of getting raw characters out of stdin is to turn off CANONical mode (and set others on or off as needed). After that, you can read a single character without any translation or buffering. |
| 20:07.27 | hans | foo.foo_like? |
| 20:07.31 | sjansen | levi: (splitp 'soup 2) |
| 20:08.11 | sjansen | Althoug the joke I'm referencing is cool. |
| 20:08.25 | levi | sjansen: That's Lisp. |
| 20:08.32 | sjansen | And maybe because it made the question possible, I'll forgive them. |
| 20:08.54 | sjansen | I was grouping functional languages in general together. |
| 20:09.05 | sjansen | Of which, lisp is a member. |
| 20:09.20 | levi | sjansen: Where'd smalltalk come in? |
| 20:10.02 | sjansen | smalltalk is a cool language, like lisp, that deserves more attention these days |
| 20:10.20 | sjansen | It's all one messy web in my head, but it makes sense to me. |
| 20:12.22 | Maquis | Newsome: thanks a ton for passign this along... |
| 20:12.25 | Newsome | Maquis: I just realized that program will get 3-character sequences like the arrows, 4-character sequences like PageUp/PageDown/Insert/etc. and 5-character sequences like the Fn keys |
| 20:12.36 | levi | Well, I can agree with that; I just don't see how the p-thing relates to it. |
| 20:12.37 | Maquis | cool! :) |
| 20:12.41 | Newsome | Maquis: not a problem. Hope it helps. |
| 20:12.56 | Maquis | now i just need to figure it out in my shell :) |
| 20:13.03 | Newsome | Just threw it together just now. |
| 20:16.17 | dataw0lf | 'Programming Microcontrollers in C' Used & New from $7.52 |
| 20:16.20 | dataw0lf | that's wootalicious. |
| 20:17.03 | hans | `*sigh* I'm gonna have to take this to the cups newsgroup |
| 20:17.43 | hans | they're about as friendly as a bucket of crabs |
| 20:17.54 | dataw0lf | what's the problem? |
| 20:18.08 | hans | can't get cups browsing to work from rhel3 |
| 20:18.58 | dataw0lf | problem could be that you're using RH. |
| 20:19.02 | dataw0lf | sorry, that wasn't helpful. |
| 20:19.05 | hans | yeah, no doubt |
| 20:19.09 | hans | alas I can't change it |
| 20:19.30 | hans | although I _might_ could recompile cups from scratch but that also might break things |
| 20:20.11 | dataw0lf | http://www.securitytracker.com/alerts/2004/Sep/1011283.html |
| 20:24.19 | *** join/#utah lukfugl (~lukfugl@host-19.pl107798-3.fiber.net) |
| 20:26.20 | hans | dataw0lf: interesting. I don't think that's it though, since it never works even right after restarting the server |
| 20:26.39 | hans | plus, I am seeing the browse packets on tcpdump |
| 20:26.42 | dataw0lf | hans: yeah, I just thought I'd throw it out there. I really don't know anything about CUPS. |
| 20:26.44 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (~von@c-67-177-11-46.client.comcast.net) |
| 20:26.45 | hans | so the server is sending stuff |
| 20:27.00 | lukfugl | ~lart vontrapp |
| 20:27.13 | vontrapp | ~lart lukfugl |
| 20:27.15 | vontrapp | ~lart hans |
| 20:28.16 | Jayce^ | oooh, apple.com just updated with the new stuff |
| 20:28.36 | Newsome | MiniMac & Cheese |
| 20:29.07 | *** join/#utah wps (~wade@166.70.209.92) |
| 20:33.26 | *** part/#utah DallinJones (~dallin@208.186.180.204) |
| 20:42.18 | *** join/#utah jalance_ (~jalance@dsl233.sisna.com) |
| 20:53.29 | spig | nice - anyone know where someone might go to have a try at a mac to see what is possible and not pre-buy? |
| 20:54.01 | mrpull | compusa usually has demo macs out... |
| 20:54.08 | spig | ok - good idea |
| 20:54.19 | Jayce^ | spig, got an old one, really nice |
| 20:54.44 | vontrapp | byubookstore has some as well |
| 20:54.58 | mrpull | true. if you are a student there are discounts on apple gear too. |
| 20:55.54 | vontrapp | develop this!! psshsshh-------||**POW** |
| 20:56.33 | mrpull | the macmini is very tempting. |
| 20:56.41 | vontrapp | sorry, just felt like randomly lashing out |
| 20:56.47 | lukfugl | spig: and just southeast of the mall there's a new mac store. It's really and hard to see though |
| 20:56.50 | mrpull | but i'm afraid it'd just be a gateway drug to a full g5 workstation. |
| 20:57.36 | lukfugl | mrpull: I got a G5 1.8GHz iMac. It's nice :) |
| 20:57.47 | vontrapp | ~lart jacob's imac |
| 20:58.10 | lukfugl | ~lart von's 4pt text |
| 20:58.22 | mrpull | sweet. I just cant justify a pc with a monitor hard wired to it. I just replaced my 17in display that I had for 10 years |
| 20:58.24 | lukfugl | which trek/when? |
| 20:58.39 | vontrapp | movie-thon |
| 20:58.48 | mrpull | but i'd agree, the imac is a sweet little machine. |
| 20:58.50 | vontrapp | tentatively this weekend |
| 20:58.54 | lukfugl | where? |
| 20:59.01 | vontrapp | dunno yet |
| 20:59.08 | vontrapp | still working out a location |
| 21:00.07 | mrpull | http://www.neowin.net/staff/creamhackered/macworld05/box.jpg |
| 21:00.17 | mrpull | what's not to love about a pc that can fit in a lunchbox |
| 21:00.18 | mrpull | ? |
| 21:00.38 | mrpull | (other than being expensive and underpowered) |
| 21:01.02 | vontrapp | howcome firewires have all those different shapes? |
| 21:01.13 | vontrapp | ~lart non-standard connectors |
| 21:01.24 | mrpull | 4 pin and 6 pin variations.... 6 pin carry power |
| 21:01.56 | vontrapp | why can't a four pin just use a six pin and not touch the power? |
| 21:02.31 | vontrapp | so great, my laptop doesn't provide power then is what you're saying |
| 21:02.35 | vontrapp | sheesh |
| 21:02.41 | vontrapp | talk about lame |
| 21:03.18 | mrpull | i don't recall any device that actually used the power on a firewire bus... |
| 21:03.25 | mrpull | except ipods |
| 21:03.39 | mrpull | even with 6 pin cables. |
| 21:04.03 | vontrapp | how about the apple camera thingys? |
| 21:04.15 | levi | mrpull: How about firewire hard drives? |
| 21:04.27 | mrpull | ture. I bet they are bus powered. I haven't seen them in person. |
| 21:04.28 | vontrapp | they have six pins, /me wonders if it would work without the power pins |
| 21:04.41 | mrpull | s/ture/true |
| 21:05.06 | vontrapp | i've seen firewire hard drives that had external power |
| 21:05.34 | levi | Some are bus-powered, some are not. |
| 21:06.16 | levi | I'd rather have a bus-powered one. I hate wallwarts. |
| 21:06.22 | mrpull | i've only seen 2.5 HDD's that were bus powered. |
| 21:06.29 | mrpull | all others have external power. |
| 21:06.45 | sjansen | vontrapp: are we invited? |
| 21:07.02 | lukfugl | And mine is 2.5, so it's sad that it's not bus-powered. Oh well |
| 21:07.04 | vontrapp | only that many, huh? how did you see a half a one? |
| 21:07.58 | vontrapp | sjansen: well, it's just a local gathering at someones house in AF, but if you really want to come, I'll let you know |
| 21:08.16 | sjansen | So I'm welcome, but not the rest of #utah? |
| 21:08.24 | lukfugl | sjansen: yup |
| 21:08.43 | vontrapp | heehee, minus one invite avail |
| 21:08.53 | lukfugl | vontrapp: how'd you manage that? |
| 21:09.00 | vontrapp | manage what? |
| 21:09.00 | sjansen | I'm not sure if I sure feel special and loved, or offended because you apparently don't like my friends. |
| 21:09.16 | lukfugl | vontrapp: -1 invites |
| 21:09.44 | vontrapp | just saying there's a limit, and we're one person closer to it |
| 21:09.56 | sjansen | Is this because some of us our geographically challenged? |
| 21:10.12 | vontrapp | if you can't find AF on your own, you can't come |
| 21:10.26 | sjansen | bigot |
| 21:16.03 | lukfugl | brb |
| 21:31.51 | fozz | Wow! |
| 21:31.54 | fozz | http://www.pervasive-postgres.com/ |
| 21:33.09 | fozz | Nice (simple) MySQL vs PostgreSQL page... http://www.pervasive-postgres.com/postgresql/mysql.asp |
| 21:38.16 | *** join/#utah lukfugl (~lukfugl@host-19.pl107798-3.fiber.net) |
| 21:38.17 | hans | ~lart lukfugl |
| 21:38.32 | vontrapp | ~lart lukfugl |
| 21:38.41 | lukfugl | had to shut down so the IT guy could steal some hardware from my computer |
| 21:39.00 | hans | pity |
| 21:39.23 | vontrapp | did you tell him he has to bring back better hardware than what he took? |
| 21:41.35 | Bradipo | Anyone need gmail accounts? :-) |
| 21:42.17 | sjansen | Anyone willing to accept gmail invitations? Please? |
| 21:54.00 | goozbach | create a gmail-spooler thing as an email gathering tool for spammers |
| 21:54.09 | goozbach | not that I'd ever do it |
| 22:07.53 | Bradipo | Dotster is pulling crap again. |
| 22:08.13 | Bradipo | If you own any domains, they are offering a .info version to you for free and it automatically shows up in your account as expired. |
| 22:18.18 | mheath | Bradipo: What's your favorite domain registration service? I'm looking to register one soon. |
| 22:22.25 | sjansen | godaddy.com |
| 22:22.55 | mheath | Do they give you full control over DNS? |
| 22:22.58 | sjansen | The provide good service. They tend toward the hard sell, but haven't yet crossed over into anything I'd call evil. |
| 22:22.59 | dataw0lf | All hail godaddy. |
| 22:23.28 | Jayce^ | godaddy is good, just a pain to purchase because the "continue without buying the upsell" feature is hard to find |
| 22:24.13 | sjansen | If you don't host with them, they make it relatively easy to specify the authoritative DNS server for the domain. |
| 22:24.28 | sjansen | Then you host your own, or use something like zoneedit. |
| 22:25.29 | macnewbold | Namecheap is really nice too... I like their DNS manager Much better than godaddy's |
| 22:26.33 | mheath | Well, I'm going to be hosting my own DNS server |
| 22:26.43 | mheath | So once I get it set to that, I'm not messing with their DNS manager |
| 22:27.27 | sjansen | mheath: Why host your own DNS? |
| 22:27.55 | sjansen | For a personal site, much easier to go with somebody else's. Then you get redundancy and load balancing to boot. |
| 22:28.14 | sjansen | Although it does keep you from doing really cool stuff. |
| 22:28.29 | *** join/#utah jsmith (~jsmith@pip.drs1.omniture.com) |
| 22:28.42 | mheath | sjansen: It's not a personal site. It's a server that will do webhosting for multiple people, e-mail, vhosts, and other things |
| 22:28.53 | mheath | I don't really *need* it, it's just easier |
| 22:29.08 | mheath | And the powers just started flickering |
| 22:29.19 | mheath | So, if I get disconnected, you know why. |
| 22:46.52 | goozbach | ~lart peoplewhohavereallylongmsnnames |
| 22:47.01 | Bradipo | mheath: I have two accounts with dotster and have been pleased. |
| 22:47.09 | Bradipo | But lately they seem to be pulling more shennanigans than I like. |
| 22:47.15 | *** part/#utah spig (~spig_@translate.sento.com) |
| 22:47.39 | Bradipo | shenanigans. |
| 22:48.10 | Bradipo | Much more fun and interesting to host your own DNS if possible. |
| 22:48.27 | Bradipo | But if your DNS server isn't reliable it can be a problem. |
| 22:48.56 | Bradipo | But if they are both on the same machine or same network you might as well. |
| 22:49.14 | Bradipo | If your network goes down, what good does it do to be able to resolve the domain. :-) |
| 22:51.30 | goozbach | who was it that just built the projector screen? |
| 22:51.35 | Bradipo | Mecworks: |
| 22:51.51 | Bradipo | Or at least I know he did recently. :-) |
| 22:51.55 | goozbach | anyone still have said url for his photos? |
| 22:52.03 | goozbach | that's the one |
| 22:52.24 | Bradipo | mecworks.com I believe. |
| 22:55.12 | goozbach | found it |
| 22:55.19 | goozbach | just needed to remember the handle |
| 22:57.15 | goozbach | ~praise gaim for allowing aliases for people |
| 22:57.17 | ibot | All hail gaim for allowing aliases for people! |
| 23:00.11 | sjansen | Man, documenting Linux is like trying to shoot a cheetah. |
| 23:10.15 | Bradipo | What are you trying to document? |
| 23:11.30 | *** join/#utah uE|bdogg (~bdogg@c-24-2-99-56.client.comcast.net) |
| 23:11.43 | hans | Bradipo: linux. ;-) |
| 23:12.01 | hans | I would say documenting linux is like trying to document the cellular structure of an elephant |
| 23:12.08 | hans | I'd rather document a toenail |
| 23:21.54 | Bradipo | Hmm, the ``Report Spam'' button is too close to the ``Archive'' button in gmail. |
| 23:22.06 | Bradipo | I accidentally submitted about 30 messages as spam when I meant to archive them. |
| 23:23.25 | mrpull | cant you go to the spam folder and "not spam" them? |
| 23:23.46 | Bradipo | Yes. |
| 23:23.54 | Bradipo | But that's beside the point. :-) |
| 23:23.56 | mrpull | true though. that may be a UI flaw. |
| 23:24.33 | *** part/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@obelix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 23:24.45 | mrpull | the other thing that gets me about gmail is they trap the "/" character |
| 23:24.58 | Bradipo | Oh really? |
| 23:25.02 | Bradipo | I hadn't noticed that. |
| 23:25.08 | mrpull | i use / in firefox to call up search... but it moves the cursor to the search box. |
| 23:25.25 | mrpull | i think you need to have the keyboard shortcuts turned on. |
| 23:25.34 | mrpull | they shortcuts otherwise are very cool. |
| 23:26.22 | mrpull | i like using j and k to move to previous/next thread |
| 23:27.31 | sjansen | ~lart Red Hat and SUSE for b0rking KDE and Gnome, respectively |
| 23:28.02 | sjansen | Bradipo: At the moment, automounting of removable media. |
| 23:30.18 | Bradipo | Hasn't someone already documented that? :-) |
| 23:35.16 | sjansen | For our courseware, documenting current RH and SUSE practices. |
| 23:36.00 | Bradipo | Ahh, very nice. |
| 23:36.08 | Bradipo | But yeah, probably sucks. |
| 23:36.55 | sjansen | Gotta say, I prefer gnome-volume-manager on RH, but it was kinda lazy to not even bother doing anything for KDE. |
| 23:37.09 | sjansen | SUSE, on the other hand, has a more annoying solution but it works in both Gnome and KDE. |
| 23:37.29 | Bradipo | I hardly ever use automounting anyway. |
| 23:37.59 | sjansen | Note that I'm talking about desktop automounting, not the automount daemon. |
| 23:38.01 | Bradipo | Never use Gnome or KDE for that matter, though I would use KDE out of the two given the right set of circumstances. |
| 23:38.22 | Bradipo | Desktop automounting? |
| 23:38.34 | Bradipo | As in you insert a floppy and your desktop pops up a window? |
| 23:38.57 | sjansen | Plugin a USB key/digital camera/etc. and have an icon show up on the desktop or the file manager open it in a new window. |
| 23:39.01 | Bradipo | Right. |
| 23:39.04 | Bradipo | Never use it. |
| 23:39.23 | Bradipo | Of course, I'm running WindowMaker. |
| 23:39.35 | Bradipo | But if I ran KDE that would be cool to show off to others. :-) |
| 23:39.49 | Bradipo | So what are you documenting, how to make it work because it doesn't work by default? |
| 23:40.18 | sjansen | Right now, just tracking down the moving pieces. |
| 23:40.45 | sjansen | Maybe look into what it takes to get automatic device labelling working. |
| 23:41.58 | Bradipo | Not sure how they do it, but I would think that the kernel should identify the device as a certain type of device and the desktop should be able to name it based upon its type. |
| 23:42.10 | Bradipo | i.e. a umass device should show up as a disk. |
