| 00:30.15 | *** join/#utah ibot (ibot@c-24-1-104-25.client.comcast.net) |
| 00:30.15 | *** topic/#utah is http://plug.org http://sllug.org http://uug.byu.edu/ http://fslc.usu.edu http://www.ldsoss.org - ask ibot for the news (/msg ibot news #Utah) |
| 00:30.15 | *** mode/#utah [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 00:30.25 | sjansen | welcome back, ibot |
| 00:32.51 | Jayce^ | lukfugl, help convince perlhoser (your trainee) he needs to get back in here.. |
| 00:33.33 | ezekiel | Jayce^ what's this about flame-wars with Darl? another IRC channel? or mailing list? |
| 00:34.04 | Jayce^ | ezekiel, the provo list.. www.plug.org has the necessary info to join the fun, or read the archive |
| 00:34.55 | *** part/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@asterix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 00:35.05 | ezekiel | deal |
| 00:39.19 | lukfugl | so this is what I've got: two servers on the same local network. server1 (192.168.1.6) defines an NFS mount (let's call it /home/foo/export) and gives server2 (192.168.1.195) permission to access it. I then go to server2 and type: |
| 00:39.59 | lukfugl | mount 192.168.1.6:/home/foo/export /home/foo/local |
| 00:40.06 | lukfugl | and it hangs -- joy |
| 00:41.08 | lukfugl | I watch /var/log/messages on both machines as I try the mount and see "Mar 19 18:33:32 server1 rpc.mountd: authenticated mount request from 192.168.1.195:818 for ..." on server1 and "Mar 19 18:30:27 email kernel: lockd_up: no pid, 6 users??" on server2 |
| 00:41.11 | Bradipo | sjansen: as far as I know they are are for use by our existing customers. |
| 00:41.18 | lukfugl | what's that lockd_up mean? |
| 00:42.07 | sjansen | But you're not trying to contractually prevent them from redistributing? |
| 00:42.43 | Bradipo | They are for contractual obligations we have with our customers to support them. |
| 00:43.54 | Bradipo | To be honest, I really don't know what content is on there. |
| 00:56.45 | Bradipo | And also, with respect to violating the GPL, I wouldn't know. I will be the first to admit I understand diddly squat about legal issues surrounding it. |
| 00:57.15 | Bradipo | I know that I prefer the BSD license more than GPL, but that's because I believe the BSD license to be more free. :-) |
| 00:57.43 | sjansen | Out of curiosity, and hope you won't take this as insulting, but is that part of why you're able to stay with SCO? You simply avoid certain questions? |
| 00:58.02 | Bradipo | But all this arguing seems like a waste of time for many talented and intelligent people. |
| 00:58.07 | Bradipo | Questions like what? |
| 00:58.26 | sjansen | Whether SCO's behavior is consistent with the legal requirements of the GPL? |
| 00:58.31 | Bradipo | Does nobody on PLUG trust that the US Judicial system is competent enough to make a decision about this case? |
| 00:58.39 | sjansen | Whether SCO's thretening letters without proof are appropriate? |
| 00:58.42 | Bradipo | I have no idea whether it is. |
| 00:58.59 | *** join/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@sorenson.dsl.csolutions.net) |
| 00:58.59 | Maquis | question... |
| 00:59.30 | Maquis | when i'm runing make xconfig on a kernel, are the options currently selected the ones that my current kernel has? |
| 00:59.34 | Bradipo | I have better things to do with my time then scour over the GPL for no gain. |
| 00:59.49 | Bradipo | In the end I still wouldn't have the first clue about what the courts will decide. |
| 00:59.49 | sjansen | It's not about trusting the judicial system. It's about the damage (economic and otherwise) of waithing years for the quesiton to be answered. |
| 01:00.08 | Bradipo | And if there is damage, don't you think the judicial system will handle that as well? |
| 01:00.47 | lukfugl | yay hans |
| 01:00.48 | Bradipo | I just think it is ridiculous for everyone to argue over something they know nothing about. I know I haven't seen the code. I don't know one way or the other. |
| 01:00.50 | lukfugl | help me with nfs |
| 01:00.53 | sjansen | How? SCO seems dead set on implodig before then. Either it will win really big, or it will cesse to exist. |
| 01:01.13 | Bradipo | Then why not let the courts make that decision? |
| 01:01.54 | Newsome | There _is_ no code. SCO has dropped all copyright-related claims to code. |
| 01:01.59 | sjansen | In the mean time, SCO execs continue to characterise FOSS as un-American and anti-Capitalistic. |
| 01:02.19 | Bradipo | Again, they are welcome to their own opinion. |
| 01:02.22 | sjansen | They appear to be trying to pressure congress into making it illegal. |
| 01:02.27 | Bradipo | As are you and everyone else. |
| 01:02.45 | Bradipo | Do you not trust congress to make the right decision about their claims? |
| 01:02.50 | sjansen | But my question is, how you deal with it. What your opinion is. |
| 01:03.09 | Bradipo | My opinion is that I don't know one way or the other, so I am not going to get mixed up in the middle of it. |
| 01:03.30 | Bradipo | All this scripture quoting on PLUG is absurd. |
| 01:03.57 | Bradipo | Newsome: How can you know for certain? |
| 01:04.10 | Bradipo | I know I haven't seen evidence one way or the other... |
| 01:04.22 | sjansen | Have you been avoiding it? |
| 01:04.26 | Bradipo | No. |
| 01:04.26 | Newsome | I've seen code. I've read case law. |
| 01:04.31 | Bradipo | I just have better things to do with my time. |
| 01:05.29 | Newsome | I've read the contracts. I've read interpretations of the contracts, both from the courts, and from the people involved in writing them. |
| 01:05.33 | sjansen | And that was my original question, if the reason you're able to stay at SCO is because you haven't bothered paying too much attention. |
| 01:06.03 | Bradipo | Newsome: Then I'm sure you must know what the verdict of the courts will be and that SCO will be on the losing end of the stick? |
| 01:06.17 | Bradipo | And if that's the case, I'll find another job. |
| 01:06.38 | Newsome | I do. |
| 01:06.42 | sjansen | But you don't care about whether SCO's execs are acting ethically now? |
| 01:07.03 | Bradipo | In what way have they been unethical? |
| 01:07.45 | *** join/#utah dtidrow (~dtidrow@host182.objectsciences.com) |
| 01:07.46 | Bradipo | And how many people work at Microsoft and who may also think Bill Gates is unethical, yet still continue to work there? |
| 01:07.46 | sjansen | Sending threatening letters demanding outrageous sums while refusing to provide proof. |
| 01:08.09 | sjansen | I've talked to a few to try and understand that too. |
| 01:08.12 | *** join/#utah Scriptwriter (creede@c-24-18-220-54.client.comcast.net) |
| 01:08.42 | sjansen | Attacking FOSS for destroying companies while relying on it themselves. |
| 01:09.20 | Bradipo | Yeah, of course that looks bad. |
| 01:09.54 | Bradipo | But again, won't the judicial system see through the smoke and make the right decision? If we don't believe this, then we have bigger problems that SCO suing IBM. |
| 01:09.54 | *** join/#utah winkey (~rush@bc103195.bendcable.com) |
| 01:10.26 | sjansen | How do you feel about Guantanamo bay? |
| 01:10.45 | sjansen | How do you feel about the WW II Japanese-American concentration camps? |
| 01:11.09 | sjansen | How do you feel about slaves being worth a fraction of a person for voting concerns? |
| 01:11.11 | Bradipo | lol |
| 01:11.22 | Bradipo | This is precisely why I try to avoid arguments... |
| 01:11.48 | Bradipo | Of course those were all wrong. |
| 01:12.15 | Bradipo | So was the Holocaust and WWII and a number of other things. |
| 01:12.20 | sjansen | So you have perfect faith in our legal system? It needs no help from you? |
| 01:12.43 | Bradipo | Definitely not perfect. |
| 01:13.06 | Bradipo | In fact, our legal system is very imperfect. |
| 01:13.15 | *** join/#utah cleverly (~michael@dsl093-225-044.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 01:14.01 | Bradipo | So are taxes. |
| 01:14.29 | Bradipo | So is the Feds spending and the deficits. |
| 01:14.31 | sjansen | So shouldn't you be thinking about whether your employer is acting ethically? If you decide it isn't, I can understand staying. I just can't understand avoiding the question. |
| 01:15.38 | Bradipo | Nothing I have seen seems unethical to me. |
| 01:17.04 | Bradipo | Many people believe Microsoft does things unethically yet they are still in business, people still use their products, etc... |
| 01:17.40 | Bradipo | The primary reason why I don't use Microsoft products is not because of their ethics. |
| 01:17.49 | sjansen | That ones easy to understand. They're afraid of change and gain certain benefits from going witht the crowd. |
| 01:17.51 | Bradipo | Its because UNIX caters more to my needs. |
| 01:18.03 | Bradipo | I don't think they are afraid of change. |
| 01:18.15 | Bradipo | I think they know that Microsoft == Making Money. |
| 01:18.31 | sjansen | Depends on the person now doesn't it. I've met alot of people that stay with MS because they're afraid of change. |
| 01:18.51 | Bradipo | Believe it or not, we live in a society that is driven by a capitalist economy right? |
| 01:18.52 | sjansen | Like I said, others stay because of the benefits of the markeshare. |
| 01:19.23 | Bradipo | I think most people stay with MS because there aren't any decent alternatives for what they need to do. |
| 01:19.34 | sjansen | So you think FOSS is diametrically opposed to capitalism? |
| 01:20.03 | Bradipo | I think FOSS is growing and maturing. |
| 01:20.09 | cleverly | The fact that we live in a capitalist economy is why a lot of people think that Caldera/NewSCO, a dying has-been company, would be willing to bet the farm on questionable litigation. |
| 01:20.14 | Bradipo | Look at how many times it has changed terms for its name. |
| 01:20.51 | Bradipo | Look at it this way. I have very little to gain from this lawsuit one way or the other. |
| 01:20.54 | cleverly | bradipo: How many times FOSS has changed it's name or how many times Caldera/SCO has? |
| 01:21.01 | Bradipo | Its not like I'm a big shareholder or anything. |
| 01:21.13 | Bradipo | But I do enjoy working here and it pays the bills. |
| 01:21.17 | Bradipo | The people I work with are great. |
| 01:21.30 | Bradipo | I get to work with *nix day in and day out. |
| 01:22.11 | sjansen | Our of curiosity, how much do you use your own product? |
| 01:22.25 | Bradipo | Depends on which product. |
| 01:22.30 | Bradipo | I use some more often than others. |
| 01:22.35 | cleverly | Which do you use daily? |
| 01:22.44 | cleverly | s/daily/most often |
| 01:22.58 | Bradipo | I use them all. |
| 01:23.09 | Bradipo | Remember, I work in IT and have to keep all of them running. |
| 01:23.19 | Bradipo | That includes OpenServer, UnixWare, Linux, Windows, you name it. |
| 01:23.27 | Bradipo | We have very little Windows, thankfully. :-) |
| 01:24.00 | Bradipo | That isn't to say that our products are perfect or don't need improvement. |
| 01:24.04 | Bradipo | Nothing is perfect. |
| 01:24.06 | sjansen | Are you comfortable with the plans to turn SCO into a company largely based on IP instead of actual products? |
| 01:24.20 | Bradipo | If those are the plans, then they haven't been communicated to me. |
| 01:24.54 | cleverly | Roughly speaking how many developers does SCO currently employ who are working on new product development? |
| 01:25.12 | Bradipo | You got me. |
| 01:25.32 | Bradipo | I know we have a lot of kernel engineers in two of our offices. |
| 01:25.47 | Bradipo | Well, Operating System engineers really I guess. |
| 01:26.03 | Bradipo | Glad you pointed that out. |
| 01:27.00 | Bradipo | And I would hope I don't find any of my personal views posted on slashdot... |
| 01:27.15 | Bradipo | Because they are mine, and not SCO's. |
| 01:27.44 | sjansen | "High-level SCO employee Bradipo was quoted as saying: Are your base are belong to us. Cower in fear puny mortals." |
| 01:29.31 | Bradipo | I may be blinded by the fact that I actually work at SCO. |
| 01:29.47 | Bradipo | But I also think some people are allowing their anger with SCO to blind them as well. |
| 01:30.40 | sjansen | I'm not mad at SCO for attacking IBM. Heck, I remember back when I hated IBM. Even today, I doubt they've embrassed FOSS for anything of than profit motives. |
| 01:31.04 | Bradipo | Yeah, I don't get that either. |
| 01:31.11 | Bradipo | What does IBM stand to gain from going to Linux? |
| 01:31.20 | sjansen | But I sure as heck am mad at SCO for not bothering to understand FOSS, then attacking and misrepresenting it. |
| 01:31.45 | Bradipo | In any argument there is more to it than meets the eye. |
| 01:31.46 | sjansen | To me, FOSS is about more than profit, it's about ethics. |
| 01:32.05 | Bradipo | And one side always believes the other side doesn't understand or doesn't see things in the right way. |
| 01:32.08 | cleverly | Bradipo: The OS is a commodity; they make their money on the hardware & services |
| 01:32.09 | sjansen | On the clock, I listen to ESR. Off the clock, I include RMS. |
| 01:32.35 | Bradipo | I listen to neither. |
| 01:32.46 | Bradipo | I have no respect for ESR or RMS. |
| 01:32.47 | cleverly | To me FOSS is just a continuation of the finest of scientific traditions |
| 01:33.11 | sjansen | The thing is, I look at history. I look at Brazil (a country and people important to me). I look at the level of support my employer recieves for proprietary software. |
| 01:33.31 | sjansen | FOSS has so much to offer. |
| 01:33.34 | Bradipo | I agree. |
| 01:33.52 | Bradipo | I think open source is good, but that doesn't mean that it is the only answer to everything. |
| 01:34.21 | sjansen | Someday, I'm going to write an article "ESR doesn't speak for me, neither does RMS" and try to get it published in as many places as possible. |
| 01:34.27 | Bradipo | I see nothing wrong with people giving away their time and efforts by donating code. |
| 01:34.50 | Bradipo | I have donated code to some projects when I have had the time too. |
| 01:34.59 | Bradipo | But it was my code and not someone elses. :-) |
| 01:35.16 | sjansen | But your employer does. Kinda. It's opposed to any code that competes with it. But loves any code that allows it to compete without paying. |
| 01:36.05 | sjansen | Like I said in my long winded article, the sad part is this whole thing is like the cold fusion embarrasment at the U of U. |
| 01:36.20 | Bradipo | I don't know. |
| 01:36.35 | sjansen | Next time, when someone does have a legitmate concern, the victim will be afraid to step forward. |
| 01:36.37 | Bradipo | I think its entirely possible for illegal code to slip into linux or any other open source project for that matter. |
| 01:36.53 | sjansen | The community used to be curious and willing to work with SCO. |
| 01:36.58 | Bradipo | No. |
| 01:37.12 | Bradipo | The community has never been on SCO or Caldera's side. |
| 01:37.22 | Bradipo | Believe me, I have worked here long enough to know. |
| 01:37.37 | sjansen | What do you mean never? |
| 01:38.07 | sjansen | Are you talking about Caldera's poor sales of Caldera Linux? If so, that's nothing more complicated than an inferior product. |
| 01:38.12 | cleverly | Being on the inside, are you privvy to the specifics of any of the "millions of lines" of SCO code that are in Linux? Those of us on the outside aren't. |
| 01:38.16 | Bradipo | On the contrary. |
| 01:38.38 | Bradipo | I have used Caldera Linux, and back when we were developing that product it was actually better in a lot of respect to many of the distros out there. |
| 01:38.44 | sjansen | If you're talking about the IP issues, in the beginning, if you'll remember the Mozillazine articles, the community was trying to understand the problem. |
| 01:39.04 | Bradipo | Certainly there were differences, but I think we had a pretty good linux distro. |
| 01:39.27 | Bradipo | In fact, many of our Linux engineers now work for Novell/SuSe. |
| 01:40.18 | Bradipo | sjansen: I wasn't referring to IP issues, but I can see your point there. |
| 01:40.33 | Bradipo | cleverly: Nope, I am not privy to that information. |
| 01:40.44 | Bradipo | cleverly: If I was, I probably wouldn't be in here. :-) |
| 01:40.55 | cleverly | heh. :-D |
| 01:41.12 | sjansen | If SCO had just said "this is what we have a problem with," we wouldn't be here today. |
| 01:41.35 | Bradipo | Well, I think initially it was just a lawsuit against IBM, correct? |
| 01:41.50 | sjansen | Heck, ESR even wrote an app that SCO could use to identify the approximate location of code SCO was concerned about without actually releasing the code. |
| 01:41.59 | Bradipo | Yeah, I saw that. |
| 01:42.06 | sjansen | But SCO wouldn't let it be. |
| 01:42.08 | Bradipo | I thought he wrote that in jest. |
| 01:42.11 | lukfugl | (forgive the interruption to your moast fascinating discussion) hmm, after more inspection, it appears that when I kill the nfs mount process, the mount is actually there. But I can't access any of the files ('Permission denied'). When I try to umount it, umount doesn't complain, but the mount point doesn't vacate either |
| 01:42.14 | Bradipo | As a poke in the eye. |
| 01:42.35 | sjansen | Instead, SCO demands outrageous sums of money and claimed the backing of non-existent "MIT employees." |
| 01:42.49 | Bradipo | So your mount command is ``hanging'' ? |
| 01:42.56 | lukfugl | Brad: yeah |
| 01:42.56 | cleverly | As a Utah, a member of the LDS Church, and as a Linux user (and past owner of Caldera's distribution) I find it frustrating that SCO continues to make insinuations & cast aspersions against both developers and users of FOSS. |
| 01:43.33 | cleverly | I wish the Santa Cruz Organization was HQ'ed in California. |
| 01:44.04 | sjansen | So maybe that's part of it, if SCO has a corporate culture of feeling picked on, that would influence the way information is presented to the execs. |
| 01:44.57 | Bradipo | cleverly: How would location make a difference? |
| 01:45.16 | lukfugl | I get this message in /var/log/messages on the client machine as well (and from the googling I've done, it does appear related) " kernel: portmap: server localhost not responding, timed out |
| 01:45.28 | Bradipo | sjansen: Only that Darl wasn't part of the original SCO... |
| 01:45.52 | Bradipo | lukfugl: Do you have a firewall that is blocking the portmap requests or anything like that? |
| 01:45.53 | sjansen | I didn't have a problem with the old SCO. |
| 01:46.04 | sjansen | I didn't like any of it's products. |
| 01:46.19 | Bradipo | Right, but I'm not sure how your feeling picked on comment fit in, that's why I mentioned it. |
| 01:46.26 | lukfugl | well, that's one thing I've been trying to figure out, but have, oh, bout 0.001 grains of experience with firewalls |
| 01:46.41 | cleverly | bradipo: Then, since I'm not a Californian, I wouldn't feel as embarrased. |
| 01:47.00 | lukfugl | the two machines are on the same local network, so I don't think it's a firewall in between them (192.168.1.X) but maybe one of them needs a port opened or something |
| 01:47.01 | sjansen | Interpreting serious overtures or cooperation from the community as taunts. |
| 01:47.03 | Bradipo | cleverly: Why do you feel embarrassed now? |
| 01:47.19 | Bradipo | lukfugl: Is there a firewall running on the server machine? |
| 01:47.31 | lukfugl | Bradipo: doubt it -- how do I check? |
| 01:47.34 | sjansen | lukfugl: lsmod |
| 01:47.53 | sjansen | If you see iptables, you use iptables -L |
| 01:48.01 | sjansen | If you see ipchains, I can't help you. |
| 01:48.20 | sjansen | Bradipo: Probably the typical LDS sensitivity to being sterotyped. |
| 01:48.39 | lukfugl | ipchains |
| 01:48.44 | sjansen | Everyone from Utah is opposed to FOSS. All LDS people are naive and/or evil opponents for FOSS. |
| 01:48.46 | cleverly | sjansen: Yes. |
| 01:48.48 | Bradipo | ipchains -L works too. |
| 01:49.38 | lukfugl | "policy ACCEPT" on input, forward and output. 4th line is "Chain PORTSEN (0 references):" |
| 01:49.40 | Bradipo | So you think that SCO's lawsuit will make non LDS people think that LDS people are anti-FOSS or that everyone in Utah is anti-FOSS? |
| 01:49.53 | cleverly | Utah IT gets tarnished by SCO's actions, yet unlike you, we don't get monetary compensation from SCO |
| 01:50.19 | sjansen | Bradipo: I don't share cleverly's concern. I'm actually kinda glad it's happening here. |
| 01:50.22 | Bradipo | lukfugl: Ok, so it sounds like you don't have a firewall. |
| 01:50.34 | Bradipo | I doubt this will tarnish IT in Utah. |
| 01:50.39 | sjansen | I'm sick of the whole thing, and I wish it'd go away, but at least I got to be in the courtroom. |
| 01:50.47 | Bradipo | As long as there are businesses in Utah, and networks and servers, there will be IT. |
| 01:50.48 | cleverly | sjansen: It's not so much a concern as it is a frustration. Plus, it's fun to be able to see the action live in court. |
| 01:50.59 | sjansen | And I can say I know Newsome, one of the people who has put the most time into understanding what's happening. |
| 01:51.01 | Bradipo | sjansen: Don't you think I'm tired of it too... :-) |
| 01:51.19 | Bradipo | But can you say you were one of Newsome's roommates at BYU? ;-) |
| 01:51.32 | lukfugl | I could |
| 01:51.33 | sjansen | Were you really? Now that's ironic. |
| 01:51.37 | lukfugl | wouldn't necessarily be true... |
| 01:51.49 | sjansen | Er, the question was meant for Bradipo. |
| 01:51.51 | lukfugl | :) |
| 01:51.56 | Bradipo | Yeah. |
| 01:52.26 | sjansen | I'll have to tease him about letting you fall in with the dark side. ;-) |
| 01:52.43 | lukfugl | there's apparently a lot of iptable stuff showing up on the client machine though -- would that cause problems? |
| 01:52.54 | Bradipo | lukfugl: It's possible. |
| 01:53.10 | Bradipo | Can you connect to the server on port 111? |
| 01:53.25 | Bradipo | telnet server 111 |
| 01:53.28 | lukfugl | yup |
| 01:53.35 | Bradipo | If it connects then at least you know that portmapper is available. |
| 01:53.43 | Bradipo | From the client? |
| 01:53.48 | lukfugl | yeah |
| 01:54.25 | Bradipo | Have you tried running tcpdump and capturing the traffic to see if things are at least communicating back and forth as they should? |
| 01:54.58 | lukfugl | tried that once, let me try again and see if there's anything that sticks out with my recently aqcuired insights |
| 01:55.25 | Bradipo | Like, see if the RPC portmapper calls are working. |
| 01:55.45 | Bradipo | I believe NFS runs on port 2049 usually, so you could try connecting to the server on port 2049. |
| 01:55.58 | Bradipo | Or to be certain, just look at netstat on the server to find out what port it is running on. |
| 01:56.18 | Bradipo | I wish *nix would get a decent networked filesystem. |
| 01:56.39 | Bradipo | sjansen: with respect to our products... |
| 01:56.49 | Bradipo | I have found that OpenServer and UnixWare are stubbornly stable. |
| 01:57.07 | Bradipo | They may not have the prettiest interface or are racey like linux in feel, but they are solid. |
| 01:57.18 | sjansen | Linux is in general. |
| 01:57.20 | Bradipo | Just like that Netware server in the backroom that gets forgotten for 10 years... |
| 01:57.22 | lukfugl | ok, 'tcpdump | grep client_ip' on the server and 'tcpdump | grep server_ip' on the client while I try the mount... |
| 01:57.51 | sjansen | The problem is, Linux is painful. OpenServer, when I tried it, was even more so. |
| 01:58.14 | Bradipo | I don't think linux is painful at all, but then I started using linux first. |
| 01:58.17 | sjansen | Not to mention old. I didn't like it for the same reason I don't like Debian. Way too old to be useful. |
| 01:58.32 | Bradipo | Odd, I prefer Debian over all other distros. |
| 01:58.44 | cleverly | bradipo: Including Caldera's? |
| 01:58.48 | Bradipo | sjansen: If you want bleeding edge, Debian has that too. |
| 01:58.55 | Bradipo | cleverly: Oh yeah. |
| 01:59.09 | cleverly | Well, we have something in common, I'm happy to report. :-) |
| 01:59.10 | Bradipo | Just because I work here, doesn't mean that I think Caldera Linux is the best linux distro... |
| 01:59.13 | sjansen | Bleding, mangled, screams of horror-edge. |
| 01:59.21 | Bradipo | Besides, caldera linux no longer exists. |
| 01:59.56 | sjansen | I hold it up as an example of why SCO was doing so poorly. Inferior distro. |
| 02:00.07 | Bradipo | But if I am not mistaken, Caldera Linux was the first distro to have a GUI installer. |
| 02:00.17 | sjansen | Ah the glory days. |
| 02:00.26 | sjansen | And tetris, no less. |
| 02:00.28 | Bradipo | And I don't think the distro was inferior. |
| 02:00.36 | Bradipo | I just think that popularity was with RedHat. |
| 02:00.55 | sjansen | Then there was volution. A fine product, I'm sure. |
| 02:00.56 | Bradipo | Its just like the difference between to newly opened restaurants. |
| 02:01.06 | Bradipo | The first customer is the one that makes the decision for the rest of the public. |
| 02:01.09 | sjansen | But not very useful to college students. |
| 02:01.36 | lukfugl | btw, killing the mount process takes about 5 minutes :) |
| 02:01.50 | Bradipo | Because the second customer will arrive and notice that one restaurant has customers, and the other doesn't. |
| 02:01.51 | sjansen | Many years ago, Caldera arranged to talk to about the history of Linux here at BYU. |
| 02:02.05 | Bradipo | He is then influenced and will most likely chose the one that has existing customers. |
| 02:02.14 | cleverly | Even though I have my Caldera CDs, ostensibly I must shell out $699 to Darl's protection racket to use what I already paid him for. |
| 02:02.20 | sjansen | Instead they spent more than half the time trying to convince us we need to use Volution. |
| 02:03.06 | sjansen | When the rep did talk about Linux history, he completely left out RMS. |
| 02:03.12 | Bradipo | sjansen: Not all products succeed, that's for certain. |
| 02:03.24 | sjansen | Talked only about economic concerns, and actually claimed Linux created the Gnu utils. |
| 02:03.30 | Bradipo | sjansen: I wouldn't include RMS in my discussion about it either. :-) |
| 02:03.36 | sjansen | s/Linux/Linus/ |
| 02:03.56 | cleverly | That's quite some revisionist history then... |
| 02:04.14 | Bradipo | Oh, do you mean GNU/Linux? |
| 02:04.25 | sjansen | The point is, he demonstrated a basic lack of understanding of what Linux was, what the community was like, how to communicate with that community. |
| 02:04.36 | Bradipo | Do you think anyone else outside the community will understand the community? |
| 02:04.53 | Bradipo | How many reporters do you know of that will get everything 100% correct about the *community*? |
| 02:05.14 | sjansen | At the time, I just wrote it off as clueless saleman. |
| 02:05.28 | cleverly | bradipo: Most reporters seem to consider a press release as "research" & run with it |
| 02:05.49 | sjansen | About a year ago I started wondering if it was actually a symptom of the caldera corporate culture. |
| 02:06.24 | cleverly | bradipo: Which, as an outsider, is another source of frustration with SCO. There is one case/story in the court room; and a much more hyper-exaggerated story in the court of public opinion/media. |
| 02:06.45 | sjansen | I always got the vibe that Caldera didn't quite "get it," and that was part of the reason it was less popular. |
| 02:06.51 | Bradipo | cleverly: Maybe you should communicate that to our PR department. |
| 02:06.57 | Bradipo | Tell them that you are getting mixed signals. |
| 02:07.29 | Bradipo | sjansen: Maybe that is the case, maybe it isn't. |
| 02:07.31 | sjansen | The problem isn't PR. It's McBrides hyperactive mouth. |
| 02:07.34 | cleverly | bradipo: I don't feel like complimenting them in that fashion. :-) |
| 02:08.08 | Bradipo | cleverly: Then don't tell me you are frustrated about it. |
| 02:08.57 | cleverly | bradipo: I can't fathom that SCO is ignorant of the fact that they've got one sets of facts/reality in the courtroom ("we can't show any infringement until we have all of AIX") vs the media ("we have direct copy of millions of lines") |
| 02:09.47 | sjansen | I still want to know what non-public contributions IBM made to Linux. |
| 02:10.12 | sjansen | That was a beautiful moment in court. He was so obviously grasping at straws. |
| 02:10.39 | Bradipo | sjansen: How do you know it wasn't just required to be in there legally? |
| 02:11.03 | cleverly | I'm curious to know how Kevin McBride can be so sure that there isn't a single copy of UnixWare (or Caldera OpenLinux for that matter) in Syria. He said it with such conviction, I think he truly believes it. |
| 02:11.15 | cleverly | It was interesting to talk face-to-face with him after the Feb 6th hearing. |
| 02:11.16 | Bradipo | We all know that the law has a funny way of looking at things and saying things. |
| 02:11.28 | sjansen | cleverly: You were in the hall? |
| 02:12.18 | sjansen | Who were you? |
| 02:12.18 | cleverly | I was myself. ;-) |
| 02:12.18 | cleverly | During the hearing I was seated on the row behind Evan McNabb |
| 02:12.18 | sjansen | Well, of course. Don't be ridiculuous. ;-) |
| 02:12.23 | sjansen | I was seated next to him. Trying to remember your face. Are you on Orkut? |
| 02:12.38 | sjansen | Anyway, Bradipo, this is the way it went down. |
| 02:12.54 | cleverly | I was the one who asked Kevin if, in retrospect (following up on the Linux is a threat to national security & global stability/safety) asked him if in retrospect he was ashamed of Caledra's contributions to Linux |
| 02:13.23 | cleverly | sjansen: Yes, I'm on orkut. |
| 02:13.24 | sjansen | SCO had just finished basically stating in more words: "We don't actually know what was stolen yet. We can't know until IBM tells us." |
| 02:14.46 | sjansen | IBM had cited case law showing that because the Linux kernel is publically available, SCO was responsible for finding the violations itself instead of trying to shift the cost to IBM. |
| 02:15.29 | Bradipo | But weren't we eventually given the code? |
| 02:15.40 | Bradipo | Or at least given access to it... |
| 02:15.44 | sjansen | Disappointed and apparently trying to think quickly, SCO's lawyer said basically "but, but, but what about the non-public contributions to Linux?" |
| 02:15.57 | Bradipo | I see. |
| 02:16.03 | sjansen | Ah, but now you're talking about AIX. I'm talking about Linux. |
| 02:16.53 | sjansen | My point is, he never would have said such a thing if he understood the Linux development process. |
| 02:17.18 | Bradipo | Small point in my opinion. |
| 02:17.35 | lukfugl | http://66.216.92.54/nfs.html -- the output of the tcpdumps |
| 02:17.47 | Bradipo | Just because he may not understand that all of linux is public or that he wasn't thinking that when he asked the question, doesn't mean that the case is thrown out. |
| 02:17.54 | Bradipo | Or that there is no legitimacy to the claims. |
| 02:18.19 | sjansen | Oh no, in fact the judge granted SCO's request that IBM identify all "non-public contributions to Linux." |
| 02:18.35 | sjansen | I'm just curious to see how IBM responds to that one. |
| 02:18.36 | cleverly | bradipo: SCO should quit shaking people down for $699 until after their claims in SCO v IBM & SCO v Novell are adjudicated. |
| 02:18.37 | Bradipo | lukfugl: That's interesting. |
| 02:18.45 | Bradipo | I tlooks like it should be communicating. |
| 02:18.53 | Bradipo | Have you looked at the logs on the server? |
| 02:19.34 | sjansen | So far, it seems like everyone in charge of guiding SCO has been acting first, thinking later. |
| 02:19.39 | sjansen | "but, but, but..." |
| 02:20.15 | Bradipo | Maybe he meant non-public (as in they were contributed through cover channels). |
| 02:20.19 | Bradipo | covert. |
| 02:20.55 | lukfugl | Bradipo: I watched /var/log/messages, that's where I saw the portmap messages |
| 02:21.07 | lukfugl | Bradipo: don't know what other server logs to look at |
| 02:21.48 | Bradipo | Can you do: rpcinfo -l server |
| 02:22.03 | Bradipo | Er... |
| 02:22.06 | Bradipo | Not -l, -p |
| 02:22.12 | lukfugl | on the client machine? |
| 02:22.16 | Bradipo | Yeah. |
| 02:23.11 | lukfugl | done -- which lines you interested in (too many to feel good about pasting) |
| 02:23.22 | Maquis | :) |
| 02:23.33 | Maquis | hmmm... |
| 02:23.35 | lukfugl | but I will volunteer these: "100003 2 udp 2049 nfs" |
| 02:23.42 | lukfugl | and the same with vers 3 |
| 02:23.45 | Maquis | the wonders of window focus on mouse-over |
| 02:23.47 | Maquis | :) |
| 02:24.20 | lukfugl | and port mapper on both tcp/udp on port 111 |
| 02:24.35 | lukfugl | both nfs lines are udp -- is that a problem |
| 02:24.36 | lukfugl | ? |
| 02:25.07 | Bradipo | What about on the server? |
| 02:25.08 | sjansen | cleverly: Você fala português? Muito legal. |
| 02:25.13 | Bradipo | Can you do: rpcinfo -p localhost |
| 02:25.40 | lukfugl | yup |
| 02:26.01 | Bradipo | Sometimes error messages on linux are too vague: kernel: portmap: server localhost not responding, timed out |
| 02:26.02 | lukfugl | same output as far as I can tell (not side by side, let me know if you want me to check that) |
| 02:26.12 | Bradipo | Should be the same. |
| 02:26.28 | Bradipo | But all of that indicates that portmapper is working. |
| 02:26.57 | lukfugl | yeah, they're identical |
| 02:28.18 | Bradipo | Make sure your DNS is setup properly and stuff. |
| 02:28.26 | Bradipo | NFS is sensitive to both time and DNS. |
| 02:31.38 | lukfugl | how so -- and if they're both on 192.168.1.X would that matter? |
| 02:32.14 | lukfugl | I refer to the server by IP in the mount command |
| 02:32.42 | lukfugl | the clocks are different by about 10 minutes on the two machines |
| 02:32.47 | Bradipo | Do you get that error every time you try to mount it? |
| 02:32.54 | lukfugl | what error? |
| 02:32.55 | Bradipo | You might want to run NTP on both. |
| 02:33.10 | lukfugl | /what/which/ |
| 02:33.19 | Bradipo | kernel: portmap: server localhost not responding, timed out |
| 02:34.14 | lukfugl | looks like it |
| 02:34.35 | Bradipo | And that might explain why it just hangs there. |
| 02:34.42 | Bradipo | The error message that is. |
| 02:34.48 | Bradipo | But it doesn't state what the problem is. :-) |
| 02:35.01 | Bradipo | You could strace both nfsd and portmapper |
| 02:35.17 | Bradipo | Not sure if that would reveal anything or not. |
| 02:35.29 | lukfugl | in addition to that error is this one "kernel: lockd_up: no pid, 11 users??" with the count going up each time. The localhost not responding error doesn't show up for a little bit |
| 02:35.45 | Bradipo | Os lockd not running? |
| 02:36.31 | Bradipo | I believe there is an rpc.lockd that should be running. |
| 02:37.01 | lukfugl | how do I check? |
| 02:37.07 | Bradipo | ps auxw | grep lockd |
| 02:37.09 | Bradipo | On the server. |
| 02:37.51 | lukfugl | root 5637 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? SW Mar17 0:00 [lockd] |
| 02:39.59 | Bradipo | Well, that looks like it. |
| 02:40.12 | Bradipo | Maybe you should try restarting it. |
| 02:40.23 | Bradipo | Is there an /etc/init.d/nfslock or anything like that? |
| 02:48.43 | lukfugl | yeah, there is, I restarted it on the server then retried the mount -- still ''hanging'' |
| 02:49.14 | lukfugl | it looks like if I leave it for several minutes (>10) it actually finishes without my cancelling it. But it doesn't seem it should take that long :) |
| 02:49.53 | lukfugl | and I still can't access any of the files in the mount |
| 02:51.04 | lukfugl | I can see them, but not read themn |
| 02:53.55 | Bradipo | Try getting your clocks on time with NTP. |
| 02:54.01 | Bradipo | I don't know for a fact that will help... |
| 02:54.14 | Bradipo | But I can't stand working on a system with incorrect time. |
| 02:54.23 | Bradipo | Anyway, I gotta go. |
| 02:54.30 | Bradipo | It's late and I should have been home hours ago. :-) |
| 02:54.38 | lukfugl | go if you need to :) |
| 03:06.16 | lukfugl | anyways, if you're still here brad, time didn't fix it :( |
| 03:12.02 | *** join/#utah gship (~zero@208.186.102.42) |
| 03:12.20 | gship | I finally decided to join the irc chat channel. So everyone can flame me in real time. :) |
| 03:13.28 | Maquis | question... |
| 03:13.50 | lukfugl | Maquis: answer (hopefully) |
| 03:14.07 | Maquis | in /usr/src/linux-2.4.22-1.2115.nptl/arch/ i have i386 and ia64... which one do i want to look in for my new kernel? |
| 03:14.22 | gship | i386 |
| 03:14.27 | lukfugl | btw, I figured out my permission problem -- it was just that permissions. Silly me. Fixed that. I still don't know why it takes 10 minutes to mount, nor why it won't unmount, though |
| 03:14.34 | Maquis | what's ia64? |
| 03:14.41 | gship | for 64bit machines (I think) |
| 03:14.47 | Maquis | ok... |
| 03:14.56 | gship | so unless your running the new athlon 64, use i386 |
| 03:14.59 | lukfugl | my bet is you want i386 |
| 03:15.14 | lukfugl | unless you've a fairly recent top-line machine |
| 03:15.39 | Maquis | ok... |
| 03:17.02 | Maquis | ok... here goes... :) if i don't come back, i'm in trouble... :) |
| 03:17.11 | gship | keep your old kernel |
| 03:17.15 | gship | as a boot option in groub |
| 03:17.16 | gship | grub |
| 03:17.21 | Maquis | i did... |
| 03:17.26 | gship | you should be fine then |
| 03:17.29 | Maquis | i think i did it correctly even.. :) |
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| 03:29.06 | Maquis | well... |
| 03:29.19 | Maquis | if nothing else, i now know that i successfully backed up my old kernel |
| 03:29.24 | Maquis | :) |
| 03:32.58 | Maquis | anybody know ezekiel's AIM??? i was IMing with him earlier, and I didn't save it... |
| 03:33.02 | Maquis | and now i need to im him |
| 03:34.16 | Maquis | ping? |
| 03:38.44 | lukfugl | you're not lagged, just looks like everyone's gone |
| 03:38.52 | lukfugl | (just barely got back with some food for myself) |
| 03:39.12 | Maquis | ok... |
| 03:39.21 | Maquis | do you know ezekiel's AIM? |
| 03:39.26 | lukfugl | nope |
| 03:39.37 | Maquis | or are you any good at debugging failed kernels? |
| 04:01.14 | Maquis | GRRRR |
| 04:08.19 | spr | one of those nights Maquis? |
| 04:09.38 | spr | what type of errors you getting when the kernel barfs? I'm no expert, but I'll try to help |
| 04:10.54 | Maquis | lets see... |
| 04:10.59 | Maquis | it all ended with a kernel panic |
| 04:11.13 | Maquis | but before that, it was complaining about kernel-module mismatches |
| 04:11.50 | spr | hm. 2.6 or 2.4? |
| 04:11.51 | Maquis | said that the module was compiled for 2.4.22-1.2115.nptl, and was being run under 2.4.22-1.2115.nptlcustom |
| 04:12.38 | Maquis | ezekiel was helping me with compilation, but then i forgot to write down his AIM sn, and now i can't get ahold of him... |
| 04:12.52 | spr | make modules, make modules_install? |
| 04:13.07 | Maquis | i did those... |
| 04:13.11 | Maquis | should i do them again? |
| 04:14.10 | spr | probably shouldn't have to. Do you know what this module does? |
| 04:14.19 | Maquis | it had it on at least 3 modules... |
| 04:14.28 | Maquis | it was recognizing the name of my kernel wrong... |
| 04:14.32 | Maquis | which i think is the problem... |
| 04:14.54 | Maquis | why did it think that i was running 2.4.22-1.2115.npt1custom??? |
| 04:16.18 | spr | that's stinking weird |
| 04:16.34 | spr | Have you tryed compiling the 2.4.24 kernel? (it being more recent) |
| 04:16.44 | Maquis | umm... |
| 04:17.10 | Maquis | ezekiel said that it'd be lower chance of errors if i stayed with the kernel that was already installed.... |
| 04:17.19 | Maquis | cuz then i wouldn't have to mess with as much stuff... |
| 04:17.57 | spr | hm. Probably for the best. |
| 04:18.11 | Maquis | this is my first time recompiling the kernel... so easy is good |
| 04:18.26 | Maquis | the kernel panic was because no init was found... |
| 04:18.48 | spr | what's uname -r give you now? |
| 04:18.55 | spr | no init? ick |
| 04:19.04 | Maquis | also, when i tried to ctrl-alt-del out, it said "<6> keyboard: unknown scancode e07a" |
| 04:19.43 | spr | hm. ctrl-alt-del is controlled by init, as defined in inittab |
| 04:19.47 | Maquis | 2.4.22-1.2115.nptl |
| 04:19.50 | spr | so if no init, it might not do much |
| 04:19.53 | Maquis | ah... |
| 04:19.54 | Maquis | icic... |
| 04:20.08 | Maquis | i was very excited to see that i had backed my kernel up correctly ;) |
| 04:20.58 | spr | always a good feeling. For me I always forget to get the nvidia binaries first, so i usually lose network and video briefly. |
| 04:22.39 | Maquis | hmmm... |
| 04:22.43 | Maquis | wonder why i didn't have that problem... |
| 04:23.02 | spr | you're in the backup right? thats why. just wait. :) |
| 04:23.08 | spr | nvidia makes life fun |
| 04:23.10 | Maquis | ah... |
| 04:23.13 | Maquis | goodie :) |
| 04:23.35 | Maquis | i still don't know how my internet started working.... |
| 04:23.40 | spr | make sure you grab the video/network drivers now so you can set them up first thing once it starts working |
| 04:23.48 | Maquis | ooh... |
| 04:23.50 | Maquis | good idea... |
| 04:24.10 | spr | i permenatly[sp] have a copy in /root myself. |
| 04:25.22 | spr | So it seems that the modules are compiled(or think they are) for your current kernel, not the new one. |
| 04:26.41 | Maquis | but the new kernel is the same.... |
| 04:28.02 | spr | exactly the same? |
| 04:28.28 | Maquis | haha |
| 04:28.31 | Maquis | oops... |
| 04:28.33 | Maquis | wrong window |
| 04:28.36 | Maquis | i think so... |
| 04:28.49 | Maquis | i changed the configure, but that's the only change |
| 04:29.53 | Maquis | was i supposed to change the initrd file? |
| 04:30.04 | Maquis | i couldn't find anything in my book about that... |
| 04:30.21 | spr | shouldn't have to. (funny initrd was one topic at work for a while today) |
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| 04:30.42 | Maquis | meep |
| 04:30.52 | spr | ? |
| 04:31.05 | Maquis | annoyed.. |
| 04:31.50 | spr | oh, know the feeling. I've recompiled my kernel 10 or so times before I got it working just right |
| 04:32.02 | Maquis | bah!!! |
| 04:32.54 | spr | of course, I don't read documentation much. really should've for that one |
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| 04:33.10 | Maquis | ~lart kernel recompilation |
| 04:33.22 | Maquis | hmmm... that wasnt' very interesting |
| 04:33.23 | Maquis | ~lart kernel recompilation |
| 04:33.51 | Maquis | not very interesting destressification today... |
| 04:33.55 | spr | Anyhow, all I can think of is redoing the compile. |
| 04:34.03 | spr | ~lart kernel recompilation |
| 04:34.20 | spr | ~lart kernel recompilation |
| 04:34.32 | Maquis | haha :) |
| 04:34.48 | Maquis | hmmm... i guess i should try that... |
| 04:35.08 | Maquis | instead of make config, i can just use make oldconfig right? |
| 04:35.24 | spr | worth a shot. I was going to reiterate the 'make' statements, but i always mix up the order |
| 04:35.33 | spr | you should be able to. |
| 04:35.35 | Maquis | i have a book here... |
| 04:35.37 | Maquis | :) |
| 04:36.00 | spr | make modules && make umm...crap i know a make bzImage is in there |
| 04:36.17 | Maquis | if anybody sees ezekiel, or happens to know his IM or anything, it'd be great if you could pass along that i need him to IM me... :) |
| 04:36.24 | Maquis | make bzImage is before make modules |
| 04:36.42 | spr | dang it! what is the standard order anyhow? |
| 04:37.24 | Maquis | make menuconfig, make dep, make clean, make bzImage, make modules, make modules_install i think |
| 04:37.28 | Maquis | that's going from memory... |
| 04:37.42 | Maquis | i'm pretty sure that's right though... |
| 04:37.58 | Maquis | cuz the first time, it died at make modules |
| 04:38.06 | spr | oh yeah. it's all coming back to me. Yeah that's it, switch to root for modules_install |
| 04:38.43 | Maquis | or just stick in root the whole time becuase you don't know where you're supposed to be in root, and where you're not... |
| 04:39.00 | spr | anyhow, I'd say give that a try again. Wish I could be of more help |
| 04:39.15 | Maquis | thanx... :) |
| 04:49.58 | findlay | qwertyuiop[]asdfghjkl;'zxcvbnm,./?><MNBVCXZ":LKJHGFDSA}{POIUYTREWQ|+_)(*&^%$#@!~`1234567890-=\ |
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| 04:58.51 | LinuxGeek | FYI : blah.tar.gz = blah.tgz so therefore blah.tar.bz2 = blah.tz2 |
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| 05:17.44 | Maquis | well... kernel compilation is obviously not one of my strong points... |
| 05:17.50 | Maquis | ~lart kernel panic |
| 05:18.19 | Maquis | ~lart kernel compilation |
| 05:19.16 | Maquis | I GIVE UP!!!!!! |
| 05:19.32 | Maquis | (ok... so i'll probably be back pretty soon... but not right now...) |
| 05:20.38 | snaga | I find that its not a good compile until maybe the tenth try. |
| 05:21.12 | Maquis | what changes in between all that? |
| 05:21.52 | Maquis | why does my computer think that my new kernel is 2.4.22-1.2115.npt1custom??? |
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| 05:23.38 | snaga | what distro? |
| 05:23.52 | Maquis | fedora |
| 05:25.08 | snaga | hmm, haven't used that one yet. You modified grub/lilo after you were done? |
| 05:25.25 | Maquis | yeah... |
| 05:25.30 | Maquis | that's the only reason i can get back... |
| 05:25.49 | Maquis | the new kernel panics while trying to start init |
| 05:26.17 | Maquis | and has other problems....\ |
| 05:26.31 | snaga | are you using an initrd? |
| 05:26.42 | Maquis | i was told i didn't need to do anything to my old one |
| 05:27.10 | snaga | old one? |
| 05:27.53 | Maquis | the one i currently have.. |
| 05:27.53 | Maquis | . |
| 05:28.12 | Maquis | i've recompiled the kernel twice today... |
| 05:28.17 | Maquis | same errors both times |
| 05:28.51 | snaga | I'm far from an expert, but I think you need to make a new initrd whenever you recompile, especially if you make config changes. |
| 05:29.00 | Maquis | i'm not actually changing kernels, just the configuration of my current kernel.. |
| 05:29.01 | Maquis | hmmm... |
| 05:29.10 | Maquis | i'll try that... |
| 05:29.24 | snaga | keep the old initrd, and name the new one something else |
| 05:30.01 | Maquis | i made a copy of my old initrd... i'll just make sure that grub grabs the old one when it boots the old version of the kernel... |
| 05:30.10 | snaga | right |
| 06:00.52 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, you do realize who dan hanks is right? |
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| 06:17.50 | Jayce^ | gaim |
| 06:17.53 | Jayce^ | grr |
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| 06:28.08 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 06:48.48 | Jayce^ | http://plug.org/archive/000010.html |
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| 07:24.13 | findlay | ibot: qwertyuiop[]asdfghjkl;'zxcvbnm,./?><MNBVCXZ":LKJHGFDSA}{POIUYTREWQ|+_)(*&^%$#@!~`1234567890-=\ |
| 07:24.14 | | You are moron #3, findlay |
| 07:28.03 | *** join/#utah lukfugl (~kip@67.50.41.115) |
| 07:28.08 | lukfugl | anyone awake in here? |
| 07:28.59 | Tenebram | No. |
| 07:29.32 | Tenebram | Well.. maybe. |
| 07:29.36 | lukfugl | :) |
| 07:29.46 | lukfugl | know anything about sendmail, Tenebram? |
| 07:31.06 | Tenebram | Nope. |
| 07:32.20 | findlay | Is that the program that sends e-mail? (: |
| 07:32.42 | Tenebram | No, I think that's the program that gets email. |
| 07:32.43 | lukfugl | findlay: heh. how about you? it seems like it should be a simple problem |
| 07:32.48 | Tenebram | Like thunderbird. |
| 07:33.25 | findlay | No, I barely know enough that sendmail and postfix do the same thing, I think. |
| 07:33.41 | findlay | I don't know what it really is though. |
| 07:35.43 | *** part/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@sorenson.dsl.csolutions.net) |
| 07:55.13 | *** join/#utah \usr\bin\perl (~jstayii@c-24-125-106-237.va.client2.attbi.com) |