| 00:10.42 | *** join/#utah findlay (~justin@auth999-1.ycell.octelecom.net) |
| 00:19.10 | bonez39 | if I am having trouble with a particular .dll....aside from just dumping windows....just reinstalling windows from the cd should probably clear the problem up, right? |
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| 00:20.55 | Jayce^ | depends on the problem |
| 00:31.50 | findlay | why, when I do "usermod justin -g justin -G wheel" does I get |
| 00:31.55 | findlay | usermod: user wheel does not exist |
| 00:32.08 | findlay | ? |
| 00:33.54 | Jayce^ | well, does it? |
| 00:34.43 | findlay | the -G flag is for specifying supplementary groups |
| 00:34.52 | Jayce^ | don't forget with usermod, if you are listing groups with -G |
| 00:35.05 | Jayce^ | if you dont' list one that you are a member of, you will be removed |
| 00:35.19 | Jayce^ | findlay, yeah, but if the group doesn't exist, it won't create it |
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| 00:45.45 | findlay | What is the proper way to add user "justin" to group "wheel"? |
| 00:46.58 | tyce | I usualy just add the user to the group line in the /etc/group file |
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| 00:48.26 | Jayce^ | findlay, well, you can just vi the groups file and add him in :) |
| 00:48.30 | Jayce^ | that's my favorite |
| 00:49.28 | Jayce^ | but like in mine, I dont' have a wheel group |
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| 00:50.38 | levi | There's the vigr command that you're supposed to use to edit /etc/groups |
| 00:51.31 | levi | It just sets some lock files and invokes vi, though. |
| 00:54.49 | findlay | Ah, yes. I've solved my problem. I really wanted to add "justin" to "games", but no matter what I did "games" wouldn't show up when I called "groups". In this process I had accidentally removed justin from his other groups. |
| 00:55.09 | findlay | So, I loggeed him out and back in again. Success. |
| 00:56.11 | tyce | are the plug meetings usualy on thurdays? |
| 00:58.10 | Jayce^ | tyce, no, UUG meetings are |
| 00:58.15 | Jayce^ | plug is on wednesdays |
| 01:00.46 | tyce | ahh, thanks |
| 01:02.11 | tyce | no plug meeting this month though? |
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| 03:31.06 | hans | Jayce^: dang good article. what kind of circulation does this SL city weekly get? |
| 03:31.13 | Jayce^ | no clue |
| 03:31.19 | Jayce^ | I just saw it on sllug |
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| 03:55.13 | neybar | he less I have to do with Darl McBride, the better off I am ... I don?t want for that ?Darlness? to rub off on me.? |
| 03:58.44 | emcnabb | neybar, that was a classic quote |
| 03:58.57 | Jayce^ | I liked soren's response on plug |
| 03:59.00 | emcnabb | haha |
| 03:59.01 | emcnabb | yeah |
| 03:59.12 | neybar | my quote was cut off... should start with "The... |
| 04:00.43 | Jayce^ | dangit, apparently I need a Times font for something.. |
| 04:00.50 | Jayce^ | how do i get that in here... hrmm |
| 04:01.12 | Jayce^ | ooh, maybe I found one |
| 04:01.58 | Jayce^ | w00t! |
| 04:02.05 | Jayce^ | oh that is friggen awesome!!! |
| 04:02.27 | Jayce^ | this is soooo going in the presentation for tomorrow |
| 04:02.33 | neybar | eh? |
| 04:02.50 | Jayce^ | just a sec neybar, I |
| 04:02.55 | Jayce^ | 'll email you some output |
| 04:03.59 | Jayce^ | k, sent |
| 04:04.08 | Jayce^ | check out the attachment |
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| 04:04.30 | emcnabb | I e-mailed them about the article |
| 04:04.30 | Jayce^ | that's the regex example in the pod |
| 04:04.34 | emcnabb | I think they did a good job |
| 04:04.53 | emcnabb | Jayce^, I'm pumped about the meeting |
| 04:05.19 | emcnabb | cool :-) |
| 04:05.20 | Jayce^ | now to make examples.. |
| 04:05.32 | Jayce^ | I have waaay too much info for the time we have :) |
| 04:05.49 | Jayce^ | neybar, you check that yet? |
| 04:05.59 | neybar | checking |
| 04:06.15 | Jayce^ | neybar, now tell me that can't help you understand a regex :) |
| 04:06.45 | neybar | I suppose it would if I knew what the original regex was |
| 04:06.58 | Jayce^ | '(([abcd0-9])|(foo))'; |
| 04:07.20 | Jayce^ | even tells you the capture points |
| 04:07.54 | neybar | so it runs thoses tests in parallel? |
| 04:08.13 | Jayce^ | no, that's an OR, shown with the diamond |
| 04:11.34 | neybar | that's pretty slick |
| 04:12.32 | neybar | The graph gives a nice highlevel view of the regex. I think that debugre or what ever that use statement was will provide more info on actually figuring out a given regex though |
| 04:13.06 | Jayce^ | right, this provides flow, without data though |
| 04:13.13 | neybar | ja |
| 04:14.38 | neybar | so did we already have a conversation in here today about Bush's speech lastnight? |
| 04:14.40 | neybar | lol |
| 04:15.10 | neybar | d'oh, just the person I was hoping to have a discussion with left. |
| 04:15.10 | Jayce^ | trying some more complicated ones, with iterations, etc... very cool |
| 04:15.14 | Jayce^ | heh |
| 04:16.29 | neybar | try this one, not over the top but useful in a web setting: |
| 04:16.32 | neybar | s/src\s*?=\s*?"(?!\s*?http)/src="$url/gi |
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| 04:17.18 | Jayce^ | well, it only cares about the regex itself of course, not the replacement |
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| 04:41.03 | findlay | Does anybody know the "run" keybinding for Windows' desktop run utility? |
| 04:51.00 | neybar | I think windows key + r |
| 04:51.08 | neybar | been a while... |
| 04:52.44 | findlay | Thanks. I'll try it next time I need to use putty on a UVSC box. |
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| 05:05.03 | neybar | Jayce^: I grabbed that GraphVis module, but it errors out with "Command 'dot' not found in $PATH" did you run into that? |
| 05:05.55 | Jayce^ | you need the necessary other progs... like graphviz |
| 05:07.24 | neybar | is graphviz a lib or something? says I have the perl module |
| 05:07.35 | Jayce^ | program |
| 05:08.22 | Jayce^ | might need springgraph too |
| 05:09.43 | neybar | I need Times font |
| 05:10.52 | Jayce^ | yeah, I had to get that too.. came with the ms fonts |
| 05:11.54 | neybar | where did you grab it at? |
| 05:12.54 | Jayce^ | apt |
| 05:13.10 | Jayce^ | it's from some msfonts installer, I think they have it at sf now.. |
| 05:13.14 | Jayce^ | urpmi should have something |
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| 06:51.48 | Jayce^ | anybody here familiar with termcap? |
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| 14:24.38 | Hanuman | we've been groklaw'd! |
| 14:24.50 | Mecworks | So, where is the Crabtree building? (for thoes who arn't familiar with the campus) |
| 14:25.01 | Mecworks | ldsoss or #utah? |
| 14:52.20 | hans | who's been groked? |
| 14:54.23 | Hanuman | Mecworks: ldsoss |
| 14:54.55 | hans | Mecworks: east side, south of the wilk |
| 15:06.56 | hans | is ksh sh compatible? |
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| 16:55.52 | orbit | It's stuff like that that made me empty out my .BitchX/BitchX.quit file... |
| 16:56.04 | orbit | :-) |
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| 17:05.20 | Hanuman | Guess I need to start reading groklaw more |
| 17:08.22 | Hanuman | If anything, SCO has at leat put groklaw on the map :) |
| 17:08.39 | orbit | :-) |
| 17:16.01 | tensai | Hanuman: you ever had to run isinteg on tour exchange server? |
| 17:16.56 | Hanuman | no - I don't even know what that is |
| 17:16.59 | Hanuman | what is it? |
| 17:16.59 | tensai | s/tour/your |
| 17:17.30 | tensai | lucky dog. it repairs corruption in the exchange database |
| 17:17.46 | tensai | somehow our server keeps corruptin itself |
| 17:18.00 | Hanuman | ahh...okay - I know what you're talking about then |
| 17:18.04 | Hanuman | no - I haven't luckily |
| 17:18.14 | Hanuman | I've heard of what a nightmare it can be, though |
| 17:18.41 | tensai | yes. I concur on the nightmare aspect |
| 17:19.34 | tensai | unfortunately my boss seems to always be out of town when it happens, so he doesn't feel our pain and understand why exchange is an abomination |
| 17:20.03 | Hanuman | do you have enough memory on the machine? |
| 17:20.09 | Hanuman | Exchange is a huge memory hog |
| 17:20.14 | *** join/#utah jakea (~jakea@byu147158wks.byu.edu) |
| 17:22.40 | tensai | yeah. the information store always cranks up to 700MB. There's a gig of ram. Seems like it ought to be enough. |
| 17:24.13 | tensai | I did just add two java services. They're only 50mb a piece. I wonder if that's related. |
| 17:24.26 | Hanuman | how many computers on your network? |
| 17:24.47 | tensai | 16 with email |
| 17:25.35 | Hanuman | okay - a gig of RAM should be plenty then |
| 17:25.59 | Hanuman | all service packs installed? |
| 17:26.16 | tensai | no, actually I haven't gotten time to do sp4 yet |
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| 17:26.34 | Hanuman | don't know if that could be the reason, but who knows... |
| 17:27.09 | Hanuman | tensai: something I have done is try to push people to using personal folders more for info they don't want backed up |
| 17:27.28 | Hanuman | that keeps the information store memory low and disk-usage low |
| 17:27.43 | Hanuman | but slightly defeats some of the Exchange purposes |
| 17:29.45 | Hanuman | I still haven't completely figured out why we're even using Exchange here. |
| 17:30.11 | Jayce^ | tensai, sounds like your exchange db needs 'depends' |
| 17:30.43 | Hanuman | every exchange db needs depends IMO |
| 17:31.07 | tensai | I know why we are. The boss bought SBS 2k and wants to make use of the investment. |
| 17:31.43 | Hanuman | tensai: that's what we have too, but I know it wasn't my boss who made the decision to buy it |
| 17:32.06 | tensai | So far we've been down for 1 1/2 hours. How much is that costing? |
| 17:32.11 | Hanuman | I'm not even sure who bought it |
| 17:32.36 | Hanuman | Exchange slows our server down - probably the reason I have to reboot every couple weeks |
| 17:33.28 | tensai | reboot the server? |
| 17:33.36 | Hanuman | yeah |
| 17:33.58 | Hanuman | and when I have to do that during the day it puts everyone out of commission for about 1/2 hour |
| 17:41.39 | dmdavis | are there any open source alternatives to Exchange? |
| 17:50.57 | zzzirk | When I admined an Exchange server I just automated the reboot to happen at 4a every Monday morning |
| 17:51.17 | zzzirk | I hated that I had to do it, but it was better than taking everyone offline for that much time |
| 17:52.49 | tensai | I've been contemplating that for a while. It just seems so wrong, but then again so is running Exchange in the first place |
| 17:54.34 | zzzirk | hehe |
| 17:56.43 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@128.187.136.208) |
| 17:57.58 | zzzirk | yeah, seems wrong, but I found that is solved all kinds of problems |
| 17:58.08 | zzzirk | it was worth my personal sanity to do it |
| 17:58.09 | zzzirk | hehe |
| 17:58.16 | Jayce^ | so does unplugging the exchange box |
| 17:58.24 | zzzirk | heh |
| 17:58.30 | zzzirk | yeah, that's a better solution IMO |
| 18:00.36 | dmdavis | anyone here ever use opengroupware? |
| 18:03.03 | Hanuman | dmdavis: yeah - I was going to recommend opengroupware |
| 18:03.18 | Hanuman | I haven't used it, but researched it - looks like a fairly decent package |
| 18:03.37 | Hanuman | sometime I keep telling myself I'm going to install it at home just to see what it is like |
| 18:03.52 | Hanuman | Frankly, I don't completely understand the need for "groupware" anyway |
| 18:04.06 | Hanuman | at least in small businesses |
| 18:06.02 | dmdavis | one thing about it is that you need to buy a plugin to use it with outlook. don't need to buy anything to use it with Evolution, from what I can see |
| 18:15.02 | tensai | we really don't use any of the groupware features anyway. a simple IMAP server would work. |
| 18:18.35 | orbit | What would ya'll recommend in the way of 'trouble ticket' tracking systems? |
| 18:18.58 | Jayce^ | rt |
| 18:19.03 | Jayce^ | especially since you already like mason |
| 18:19.13 | tensai | I actually use bugzilla |
| 18:19.14 | orbit | Groovy. |
| 18:20.00 | tensai | it's a little bulky but it works good enough. I'm satisfied. |
| 18:20.18 | Jayce^ | it's table structure is a pain, and it's coding is quite hackish |
| 18:20.21 | tensai | better any proprietary system I've seen |
| 18:20.37 | tensai | yeah, I'll agree with ya there |
| 18:20.41 | Jayce^ | tensai, check out rt some time (still open source), but commercial support is available.. |
| 18:20.54 | Jayce^ | built in perl+mason |
| 18:21.12 | orbit | We've got bugzilla set up, but it feels like it's a bit bulky for just trackign trouble tickets, sysadmin requests, etc. |
| 18:21.20 | Jayce^ | its' what they use for cpan's setup.. rt.cpan.org |
| 18:26.40 | Hanuman | tensai: we are in the same situation - IMAP would do |
| 18:29.33 | Hanuman | maybe a shared address-book via LDAP or something like that, too |
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| 18:37.09 | tensai | Hanuman: yeah, exactly. We've played a little with shared folders, but since SBS's Exchange is crippled it doesn't actually do all the groupware stuff. |
| 18:38.02 | sjansen | Jayce^: url for rt? |
| 18:38.07 | tensai | It was a major pain to allow some of my users to send from alternate email addresses. |
| 18:39.42 | orbit | http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/ |
| 18:41.16 | Hanuman | Microsoft really needs a scaled-down Exchange without all the bells and whistles that they distribute for a much cheaper price |
| 18:41.32 | Hanuman | or you could use an open solution |
| 18:41.54 | Hanuman | yet another advantage to OSS |
| 18:41.55 | Jayce^ | but a company *needs* all those things.. |
| 18:41.56 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 18:42.17 | Hanuman | so M$ wants you to think :) |
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| 18:43.02 | tensai | I can't believe they want $245 to talk with them on the phone. TCO my @$$ |
| 18:43.28 | orbit | And you'd probably get a better answer on an IRC channel. |
| 18:45.25 | tensai | I'm 100% confident that between #utah, other IRC channels, mailing lists and reading the source code I can figure out a solution to *any* Linux problem |
| 18:45.51 | Hanuman | orbit: good luck finding a M$ IRC channel that will help you |
| 18:45.53 | Hanuman | I haven't found one yet |
| 18:45.58 | sjansen | I think I might like RT. |
| 18:46.00 | synic | 5 0 * * * date would run "date" at 12:05 AM every morning, right? |
| 18:46.22 | Hanuman | everyone I've tried is composed of script kiddies trying to gain ways to hack M$ |
| 18:47.33 | orbit | synic: looks right. |
| 18:47.44 | synic | it keeps running at 11:30 the night before. |
| 18:47.59 | Hanuman | synic: sure you're looking at cron for the right user? |
| 18:48.09 | synic | it's root's cron |
| 18:48.21 | sjansen | The machine is on at that time? |
| 18:48.35 | orbit | "/var/log/cron" is useful. |
| 18:48.47 | synic | yeah, as part of the cronjob, I just have it date > file, and it is officially running at 11:30 |
| 18:49.37 | synic | Jayce^: what are you converting him to? |
| 18:49.43 | Jayce^ | mod_perl |
| 18:49.54 | tensai | synic: Scientology |
| 18:50.37 | Jayce^ | I grew up in pretty much the same town as old l.ron.... freak.. |
| 18:51.13 | tensai | L. Jayce^ Hubbard... |
| 18:51.27 | tensai | Jayce^: where is that? |
| 18:51.36 | levi | sjansen: Couldn't you find some better sci-fi to read? ;) |
| 18:51.54 | sjansen | I'm curious about what he's got to say. |
| 18:52.05 | levi | If you want to read some funky wacked-out stuff, find a copy of the Urantia book. |
| 18:52.11 | orbit | I read the book version of Battlefield earth once many moons ago. |
| 18:52.34 | orbit | Enjoyed it then. |
| 18:52.40 | orbit | But I've heard the movie was a flop. |
| 18:52.55 | levi | I read a couple of his Mission: Earth books. They sucked, so I never continued reading them. |
| 18:53.13 | Hanuman | Jayce^: didn't sjansen steal modperl as a license plate from you? |
| 18:53.36 | Jayce^ | no, neybar_work stole the Perl ones |
| 18:53.38 | tensai | levi: I read all of them. I dunno what I was thinking. You didn't miss anything. |
| 18:53.59 | neybar_work | bwahaha |
| 18:54.02 | Jayce^ | tensai, he was from Bremerton WA... just a couple miles away form my house |
| 18:54.27 | Jayce^ | orbit, movie was worthless.. even less than that |
| 18:55.07 | neybar_work | I've never read any thing by Hubbard and have no interest in doing so |
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| 18:56.17 | levi | From the summary of Dianetics that I've seen, and philisophical conversations with a Scientologist, I have absolutely no desire to read Dianetics. |
| 18:57.33 | tensai | it's really about whether you can afford it or not. The higher up you get, the more $$$ it costs. |
| 18:59.11 | levi | Well, yeah. But there's a whole lot of weird, almost-convincing pseudo-psychology and stuff that goes along with it, too. |
| 18:59.39 | levi | I mean, it's supposed to be about self-empowerment and unlocking your potential, or something to that effect. |
| 19:00.08 | levi | And you go through an 'auditing' process to find and eliminate problems. |
| 19:00.46 | Jayce^ | yeah, the larger part of it is in gaining the ability to maniupulate people with words.. |
| 19:01.57 | levi | It gets really weird when they start discussing 'thetans' or whatever they are. |
| 19:02.08 | Jayce^ | oh, that just gets freaky |
| 19:02.28 | levi | That's the sci-fi element. :) |
| 19:02.45 | Jayce^ | there is a reason they have so many lawyers.. they really like the ability to twist words around to confuse people.. |
| 19:02.50 | Jayce^ | or to make others look bad |
| 19:02.59 | emcnabb | Jayce^, you read for tonight? |
| 19:03.31 | Jayce^ | what was I supposed to read? :) |
| 19:03.48 | levi | Well, when you've got such a shaky foundation, you've got to defend it with brainwashing and by suppressing criticism. |
| 19:04.16 | Jayce^ | serious suppression.. amazing how fast they'll get lawyers on you if you disagree with them... |
| 19:04.28 | Jayce^ | they have really twisted certain laws around to their benefit |
| 19:05.35 | levi | They're also adamantly opposed to real psychology/psychiatry. |
| 19:05.43 | bonez39 | lawyers.....liars......spelling is pretty close, in my book |
| 19:06.01 | Jayce^ | lol |
| 19:08.07 | levi | If you ever seriously talk to a Scientologist (assuming they're similar to the guy I talked with at length) you'll get seriously weirded out. |
| 19:08.52 | Jayce^ | just go and compare the history of their founder, vs joseph smith.. world of difference.. |
| 19:09.06 | tensai | I read part of a big book at the library once about Scientology. The introduction said they had taken all the of good parts of every other religion and combined them. |
| 19:09.15 | tensai | Therefore they're the best |
| 19:10.03 | Jayce^ | the only reason they calssify themselves as a religion is for the tax-breaks |
| 19:12.29 | tensai | I've heard they turned "religion" because they could get away with all sorts of weird stuff due to freedom of religion |
| 19:12.44 | bonez39 | tensai: well, that's a heady claim to make... |
| 19:13.20 | orbit | Well with as many lawyers as it sounds like they have, claiming to be a religion isn't so hard an interpretation, now is it... :-) |
| 19:50.48 | hans | ok, php has stopped working. :( |
| 19:51.41 | hans | I have the AddType lines, the LoadModule line, and yet it still offers the file for me to download instead of handling it |
| 20:11.16 | sjansen | hans: You've of course restarted or reloaded the config? |
| 20:11.33 | sjansen | Try retyping the lines to make sure no hidden characters snuck in. |
| 20:12.03 | sjansen | LoadModule php4_module modules/libphp4.so |
| 20:12.09 | sjansen | AddType application/x-httpd-php .php |
| 20:19.39 | neybar_work | you notice that using all whitespace chars and unprintable characters that sjansen has actually got mod_perl working for you |
| 20:20.59 | Jayce^ | lol |
| 20:21.28 | Jayce^ | you know, ACME::Bleach in conjunction with <perl> httpd.conf sections, you could do that |
| 20:22.07 | neybar_work | lol |
| 20:23.09 | Jayce^ | hrmm, no, you couldn't do it on a per line level like that, it's have to be in an included .pm |
| 20:23.14 | Jayce^ | or .pl I mean |
| 20:23.15 | sjansen | ibot: ping hans |
| 20:23.20 | | pong hans |
| 20:24.45 | Jayce^ | "something that won't let you boot off it if you heart rate is at an increased level" |
| 20:26.57 | Jayce^ | "something with force-feedback, will kick you in the groin if you mistype a letter in a password" |
| 20:27.49 | sjansen | "something that turns on capslock just before prompting for passwords, and turns capslock off just before prompting for password changes" |
| 20:27.53 | Jayce^ | and just try using backspace in your password |
| 20:35.14 | tensai | Jayce^: I keep trying to use Alt-Sysrq-K as my password, but that doesn't seem to work either |
| 20:36.20 | Jayce^ | lol |
| 20:36.51 | Hanuman | FreeBSD allows the backspace in the password |
| 20:37.46 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 20:38.54 | Hanuman | lol...(prepare for a big one, but worth it) - this is from focus-ms on securityfocus: |
| 20:39.06 | Hanuman | My company focuses on web design (portal/CMS) for small/midsize companies |
| 20:39.07 | Hanuman | and non profit orgs. We generally design with ASP.NET/WIN 2003 Server/MS |
| 20:39.07 | Hanuman | SQL Server. |
| 20:39.07 | Hanuman | We have recently run into a problem with a local competitor. The competitor |
| 20:39.07 | Hanuman | generally designs flash and php sites hosted on Apache/Linux. |
| 20:39.09 | Hanuman | The competitor is apparently going to our customers and potential customers |
| 20:39.12 | Hanuman | and trying to scare them off by bashing Microsoft/IIS. |
| 20:39.14 | Hanuman | Security Holes in improperly configured MS systems are no secret... so |
| 20:39.17 | Hanuman | people already have this idea in their head /before/ this competitor gets to |
| 20:39.19 | Hanuman | them. |
| 20:39.22 | Hanuman | It's like the competitor is playing off of the customers fear... and once |
| 20:39.25 | Hanuman | they are afraid, it appears the burden of proof lies on us. |
| 20:39.27 | Hanuman | I'm looking for suggestions and/or resources on how to counter this. If you |
| 20:39.30 | Hanuman | or any of your companies have run into similar situations, I'd love to hear |
| 20:39.32 | Hanuman | how you handled it. |
| 20:39.34 | Hanuman | done |
| 20:39.37 | Hanuman | now that's why I'm number one ;-) |
| 20:39.47 | Jayce^ | no joke |
| 20:40.04 | Jayce^ | so, did you tell him.. "switch to *nix, apache, mod_perl" |
| 20:40.06 | tensai | lucky ibot doesn't have flood protection turned on |
| 20:40.09 | Hanuman | I won't do that again...I promise, but this e-mail had me laughing |
| 20:40.31 | Hanuman | focus-ms doesn't allow any M$ bashers post - I've tried and got moderated |
| 20:40.41 | Jayce^ | hehe |
| 20:40.50 | Hanuman | talk about the hood is shut... |
| 20:41.12 | Hanuman | once on the inside you can't see the outside world any more |
| 20:41.36 | Hanuman | focus-ms is amusing at times |
| 20:42.17 | Hanuman | interesting discussion going on right now about Apache 2's security and what it allows mod_perl to do |
| 20:42.23 | Hanuman | on bugtraq |
| 20:42.49 | Jayce^ | oh? |
| 20:43.08 | hans | sjansen: behold from the error.log |
| 20:43.11 | hans | PHP Warning: Unknown(): Unable to load dynamic library '/usr/lib/php4/20020429/ |
| 20:43.11 | hans | php_ming.so' - /usr/lib/php4/20020429/php_ming.so: cannot open shared object fil |
| 20:43.11 | hans | e: No such file or directory in Unknown on line 0 |
| 20:43.11 | hans | PHP Warning: Unknown(): Unable to load dynamic library '/usr/lib/php4/20020429/ |
| 20:43.11 | hans | php_min.so' - /usr/lib/php4/20020429/php_min.so: cannot open shared object file: |
| 20:43.14 | hans | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:43.16 | hans | Processing config directory: /etc/apache/conf.d |
| 20:43.19 | hans | PHP Warning: Unknown(): Unable to load dynamic library '/usr/lib/php4/20020429/ |
| 20:43.21 | hans | php_ming.so' - /usr/lib/php4/20020429/php_ming.so: cannot open shared object fil |
| 20:43.24 | hans | e: No such file or directory in Unknown on line 0 |
| 20:43.26 | hans | PHP Warning: Unknown(): Unable to load dynamic library '/usr/lib/php4/20020429/ |
| 20:43.29 | hans | php_min.so' - /usr/lib/php4/20020429/php_min.so: cannot open shared object file: |
| 20:43.31 | hans | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:43.31 | Hanuman | Jayce^: yeah - check the archives - it's basically an argument on what Apache should allow and shouldn't allow |
| 20:43.33 | hans | [Thu Jan 22 12:42:21 2004] [notice] Apache/1.3.29 (Debian GNU/Linux) PHP/4.3.3 c |
| 20:43.36 | hans | onfigured -- resuming normal operations |
| 20:43.39 | hans | [Thu Jan 22 12:42:21 2004] [notice] Accept mutex: sysvsem (Default: sysvsem) |
| 20:43.41 | hans | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:43.49 | Hanuman | hans is trying to beat me |
| 20:44.05 | tensai | hans: apt-fix php4 |
| 20:44.07 | Hanuman | lol - I like this response: |
| 20:44.09 | Hanuman | "In fact, |
| 20:44.10 | Hanuman | from a remote perspective, some Linux distros are far |
| 20:44.11 | Hanuman | less secure than Win9x" |
| 20:44.28 | Jayce^ | Hanuman, no time.. too many lists alrady |
| 20:44.36 | sjansen | hans: Looks like your problem is the distro. RH ships broken packages much less often. |
| 20:45.13 | Hanuman | Jayce^: it's nothing important yet - just a security discussion and "where-does-the-responsibility-lie" argument |
| 20:45.16 | hans | your apple compares not to my orange |
| 20:45.32 | Hanuman | my apple is much better than your orange because it is a Mac |
| 20:45.32 | hans | debian ships broken packages even less often than redhat |
| 20:45.46 | hans | and people complain because it's not often enough. (yes, I'm running unstable here) |
| 20:45.50 | tensai | hans: I have not a php_ming.so or php_min.so on my system. Is it a php extension? |
| 20:46.16 | sjansen | It's looking like the problem is related to your php.ini |
| 20:46.20 | tensai | ~find php_min.so |
| 20:47.27 | hans | not on my system either |
| 20:47.27 | tensai | ~find php_ming.so |
| 20:47.27 | sjansen | One of the .so it's trying to load has problems. ldd libphp4.so and each of the .so in the php.ini |
| 20:47.27 | hans | those are warning, it seems |
| 20:47.41 | hans | that last bit says php was configured and is running normally, though |
| 20:48.17 | Hanuman | at least my apple is an apple :-P |
| 20:50.31 | hans | anyone know what this php_min thing is? |
| 20:51.50 | tensai | Ming, a SWF output library and PHP module. |
| 20:51.57 | hans | ok, looks like ming is the flash thing. they're not using it anymore so I'll disable it |
| 20:53.30 | hans | hrm. well the warnings are gone and it still don't work |
| 21:01.52 | Hanuman | hans: have you tried installing php and apache from source? |
| 21:02.10 | hans | would it be worth setting up apache2? |
| 21:02.25 | tensai | is php stable on apache2? |
| 21:02.32 | Hanuman | not sure - I'm not a php man |
| 21:02.46 | Hanuman | I refuse to setup Apache any other way than by source |
| 21:02.56 | Hanuman | especially w/ mod_perl |
| 21:03.02 | sjansen | Compiling php is a real pain. |
| 21:03.04 | tensai | that's why your apples are all mushy and brown :) |
| 21:03.30 | Hanuman | mine is white and shiny |
| 21:03.41 | Hanuman | it glows in back |
| 21:04.18 | hans | ~lart opinions. ;-) |
| 21:04.37 | hans | now there's half an apple |
| 21:04.39 | sjansen | hans: Any chance I could log in to look at your httpd.conf and php.ini? Or mail them to me. |
| 21:04.57 | hans | i'll mail them to ya |
| 21:05.07 | Jayce^ | sjansen, try apachetoolbox sometime.. |
| 21:05.08 | Jayce^ | it's nice.. |
| 21:05.15 | Jayce^ | but last I saw only did 1.x |
| 21:06.32 | Hanuman | apachetoolbox gave me errors in compiling apache |
| 21:06.43 | Hanuman | had to do it raw in order to get it to work |
| 21:06.53 | Hanuman | the only true way |
| 21:06.55 | Hanuman | :) |
| 21:10.35 | hans | I agree. I always rewrite things like maps and vectors and hash tables and all that. Never did like that STL thing. |
| 21:11.24 | sjansen | I don't know. There's something to be said for knowing what's happened to your web server. |
| 21:11.48 | brailsmt_ | a little verbose though... |
| 21:12.06 | sjansen | The packaged versions are quick to install, but then you have to figure out what funky things they did to it. |
| 21:12.11 | Hanuman | apache is probably the only package I will install from source |
| 21:12.20 | Hanuman | sjansen: exactly |
| 21:12.52 | Hanuman | when it is with mod_perl some argue it's faster to compile mod_perl in with apache |
| 21:15.05 | sjansen | One of the things I hated about Debian's apache: everytime I upgraded or installed something, it insisted on auto-regenerating my entire apache conf. |
| 21:15.16 | sjansen | I'd disable a module, then it'd turn it back on. |
| 21:15.29 | sjansen | I hate it when my system fights me. |
| 21:18.44 | hans | sjansen: that's the growing pains, they're repenting |
| 21:19.26 | sjansen | hans, could I get /etc/phpwiki/apache.conf and /etc/apache/conf.d/* ? |
| 21:20.16 | hans | nothing in conf.d, and the phpwiki one is just Aliase /wiki /usr/share/phpwiki, and <Directory /usr/share/phpwiki/> ... </Directory |
| 21:20.48 | hans | I'm not using phpwiki. in fact, I'm trying to uninstall it now but it looks like the phpwiki maintainer hosed it royally (this really isn't all that common, I promise) |
| 21:22.15 | Hanuman | sure... :) |
| 21:26.23 | sjansen | Oh no, I've _never_ had any problem with the quality of any Debian package. |
| 21:26.42 | hans | i'll hold my peace about the quality of redhat packages |
| 21:26.46 | sjansen | There was that totally unusable Gnome that one time... |
| 21:27.36 | hans | yeah, that's always the case. gnome and kde both. totally unusable |
| 21:27.44 | Hanuman | there are some terrible redhat packages |
| 21:27.59 | Hanuman | never had a problem with apache's rpm, though |
| 21:28.02 | sjansen | I've never had any reall complaints with RH. |
| 21:28.07 | Hanuman | I just don't like the way it works with mod_perl |
| 21:28.15 | hans | sjansen: I've had plenty |
| 21:28.17 | sjansen | But then I'm not a KDE user. |
| 21:28.31 | hans | no, i was bashing gnome and kde themselves, not the rh packages |
| 21:28.57 | Hanuman | I never use a Redhat-distributed mysql rpm - they never work. I always use mysql's own. |
| 21:30.38 | Hanuman | on this pentium 166 fedora is just having tons of problems |
| 21:30.47 | Hanuman | in particular of a yum/up2date variety |
| 21:35.16 | *** join/#utah findlay (~justin@auth999-1.ycell.octelecom.net) |
| 21:41.09 | sjansen | I'm running Fedora on a server with 64 megs of RAM w/o complaint. |
| 21:41.18 | sjansen | Course, it is a server so command line one. |
| 21:43.56 | hans | hmm, maybe it's not the installation after all |
| 21:44.13 | sjansen | hans: I've looked over your configs. Everything looks sane. |
| 21:44.24 | sjansen | I'm thinking buggy compile of php at this point. |
| 21:44.25 | hans | i made a .php file in documentroot and it works, but it isn't working in $documentroot/kiosk (which is a symlink into a user's home directory) |
| 21:44.38 | hans | maybe some sort of permissions thing? |
| 21:44.49 | hans | lrwxrwxrwx 1 kubones vmac 20 2003-11-14 13:38 kiosk -> /home/kubones/kiosk/ |
| 21:44.56 | sjansen | PHP doesn't require x.... |
| 21:45.18 | hans | links are all like that |
| 21:45.21 | hans | symbolic ones anyway |
| 21:46.20 | sjansen | Same owner? |
| 21:46.28 | hans | hmm, foo.php works if I put it there too |
| 21:46.47 | hans | but index.php wants to download |
| 21:47.11 | sjansen | mv index.php index.bak ; mv foo.php index.php |
| 21:47.23 | jakea | sjansen: you'd be so proud, I think I'm breaking my wife of top posting |
| 21:47.48 | synic | what's wrong with top posting again ? |
| 21:51.23 | hans | gadzooks. foo.php as index.php fails too. and if I choose save to disk it saves the old one... even after restarting the server. no wait, if I restart firebird... |
| 21:51.26 | hans | grr |
| 21:52.08 | hans | i think firebird's been caching it all this time and somewhere along the line I fixed it. grr |
| 21:54.22 | hans | let this be a lesson. always suspect the browser |
| 21:54.32 | hans | i thought i had already learned that |
| 21:56.56 | Hanuman | sjansen: I've found fedora sees a big difference between 32Mb and 64Mb - the install worked when I added another 32Mb in there to make 64, but would not work with 32 |
| 21:57.05 | Hanuman | I'm currently using 32 now that it's installed |
| 22:03.06 | hans | Hanuman: you'll like the latest /. poll |
| 22:05.43 | *** join/#utah bbeattie (~bbeattie@204.176.204.140) |
| 22:10.25 | Hanuman | lol |
| 22:11.05 | hans | what's a word for "neverending journey" or "long journey" |
| 22:11.29 | findlay | the land before time |
| 22:11.30 | Hanuman | quest |
| 22:11.55 | hans | :) |
| 22:11.58 | Hanuman | well, time to head home... |
| 22:13.16 | sjansen | hans: work |
| 22:14.38 | hans | "pain, will you return it?" |
| 22:15.36 | Jayce^ | I'll say it again... pain.. |
| 22:16.07 | hans | wonder if that song has anything to do with the movie |
| 22:22.37 | tensai | synic: A. It disrupts the natural flow |
| 22:22.45 | tensai | synic: Q. why is top posting bad? |
| 22:23.42 | hans | tensai: >synic: A. It disrupts the natural flow |
| 22:23.52 | hans | tensai: >synic: Q. why is top postine bad? |
| 22:24.19 | hans | tensai: both are bad when unnecessary. people should just get used to writing like they did way back when |
| 22:24.28 | sjansen | <hans> tensai: >synic: A. It disrupts the natural flow |
| 22:24.33 | sjansen | <hans> tensai: >synic: Q. why is top postine bad? |
| 22:24.39 | hans | :) |
| 22:24.44 | sjansen | Replying w/o editing is also annoying. |
| 22:24.45 | Jayce^ | why did I know that was comming |
| 22:24.59 | Jayce^ | especially with large .sig's, and list tags |
| 22:25.15 | tensai | down with non-edited replies |
| 22:25.29 | sjansen | <sjansen> Replying w/o editing is also annoying. |
| 22:25.29 | sjansen | <Jayce^> why did I know that was comming |
| 22:25.33 | sjansen | <Jayce^> especially with large .sig's, and list tags |
| 22:25.45 | sjansen | Jayce^: Me too. I agree. |
| 22:26.15 | sjansen | Er, oops, that should be: |
| 22:26.16 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:26.27 | Jayce^ | and I hate those people that reply with an 'I agree' without adding anything useful :p |
| 22:26.30 | sjansen | Jayce^: Me too. I agree. |
| 22:26.41 | hans | me too |
| 22:26.51 | sjansen | <Jayce^> why did I know that was comming |
| 22:26.58 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:26.58 | hans | oh wait, i forgot to paste |
| 22:27.31 | Bradipo | Mailing list discussion, oooh boy, I love these. |
| 22:28.05 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 22:28.05 | Bradipo | I personally think everyone should be forced to read RFC 1855 before being allowed to participate online. :-) |
| 22:28.28 | tensai | dare I mention munged reply-to's? |
| 22:29.26 | Bradipo | Don't even mention reply-to... search the archives and you can find my nice rants about reply-to. |
| 22:29.42 | Jayce^ | oh yeah, but that's one you won't get me to change on yet :) |
| 22:29.46 | Bradipo | I have configured my email client to ignore reply-to on PLUG. |
| 22:29.50 | Jayce^ | or Mike for that matter |
| 22:30.01 | Bradipo | So it doesn't matter to me anyway. |
| 22:30.42 | Bradipo | PLUG, by the way, is the only technical mailing list that I'm on that employs a broken use of reply-to. |
| 22:31.05 | Bradipo | Maybe that's because we're in Utah. |
| 22:31.24 | sjansen | UUG does too. |
| 22:31.29 | Bradipo | It didn't always. |
| 22:31.32 | Bradipo | And I'm no longer on UUG. |
| 22:31.46 | sjansen | In fact, I consider low traffic lists that don't have reply-to list to be broken. |
| 22:32.18 | dmdavis | hey, since RFC 1855 was mentioned, I have a question: |
| 22:32.33 | dmdavis | under 2.1.1, it says not to change the wording of messages you reply to |
| 22:32.44 | dmdavis | how does this affect trimming messages? |
| 22:32.55 | Bradipo | Read further and it discusses trimming I believe. |
| 22:32.58 | sjansen | Yes! You must never trim. |
| 22:33.03 | Bradipo | But I don't think that applies to trimming. |
| 22:33.18 | sjansen | Readers are too stupid to realize you trimmed, and archives are virtually non-existant these days. |
| 22:33.22 | Bradipo | I think that means don't take someone's words and insert or otherwise make a different meaning out of those words. |
| 22:33.25 | dmdavis | are you referring to "you may shorten the message..." ? |
| 22:33.25 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, in my lists, about half are reply-to list.. |
| 22:33.42 | Jayce^ | almost the only ones that arent' are the perl lists.. and they all have the same program/admin |
| 22:33.56 | Bradipo | Look at it this way... |
| 22:34.04 | Bradipo | What format does LKML use? ;-) |
| 22:34.33 | Bradipo | dmdavis: yeah, that's what I'm referring to. |
| 22:34.45 | dmdavis | thanks |
| 22:35.29 | hans | i'm in just the kind of mood to fix the uug list to not use reply-to |
| 22:35.34 | sjansen | LKML is hardly Plug. |
| 22:35.50 | Bradipo | No, it is not. |
| 22:36.08 | sjansen | Introductory lists like UUG should have reply-to list. |
| 22:36.09 | Bradipo | sjansen: I am not saying that there shouldn't be a list-reply-to function. |
| 22:36.16 | Bradipo | But I don't think overloading reply-to is the proper solution. |
| 22:36.23 | Bradipo | I disagree. |
| 22:36.29 | hans | ditto |
| 22:36.31 | sjansen | I'm borderline on Plug, but as it's small think keep reply-to list. |
| 22:36.44 | hans | plug is small? |
| 22:36.49 | hans | it's not huge |
| 22:36.50 | hans | but it's not small |
| 22:36.53 | Bradipo | sjansen: Why does the volume of the mailing list matter? |
| 22:37.00 | sjansen | It' more convenient to have reply-to. We don't all use MUA's designed for lists. |
| 22:37.08 | Bradipo | Because it increases the chance that someone will screw up with reply-to and send private mail to the list? |
| 22:37.35 | sjansen | Exactly. That's not a big deal on smaller lists. |
| 22:37.43 | Bradipo | I think it's worst on smaller lists. |
| 22:38.09 | sjansen | But when you have people coming in with Outlook and Hotmail, we should be friendly. |
| 22:38.09 | Bradipo | Since the community is much smaller on a small list, the chance that a private mail will have bad effects on the entire group are greater as the group decreases in size. |
| 22:38.42 | hans | yes |
| 22:38.44 | sjansen | New users aren't expecting to have to change the To:. |
| 22:38.57 | hans | they don't expect a lot of things |
| 22:39.15 | Bradipo | So you punish the veterans at the expense of new blood? |
| 22:39.20 | sjansen | They should be encouraged to participate in the discussion, not take it off list. |
| 22:39.21 | dmdavis | we should just leave the reply-to blank. Force them to fill it in |
| 22:39.23 | hans | for many it's their first intro to lists too |
| 22:39.33 | hans | why fail to teach them about lists? |
| 22:39.50 | Jayce^ | why not teach them the better way |
| 22:39.53 | sjansen | Bradipo already said it doesn't matter to him anymore. |
| 22:40.00 | dmdavis | Reply-To: <Think carefully, then fill this in> :) |
| 22:40.12 | Bradipo | No, it does matter. |
| 22:40.14 | sjansen | Obviously more experienced users can work around it. |
| 22:40.16 | Bradipo | It doesn't matter on PLUG any more. |
| 22:40.21 | sjansen | So we're catering to less experience. |
| 22:40.23 | Bradipo | I have bypassed the broken reply-to in my mailer. |
| 22:40.24 | bonez39 | any of you versed in the use of WINE? |
| 22:40.36 | Jayce^ | if I'm talking in a list, I expect my reply to go to that list... not to break the conversation away.. |
| 22:40.41 | Bradipo | I don't call it catering. |
| 22:40.46 | Bradipo | You are making me do more work at their expense. |
| 22:40.48 | Bradipo | How is that catering? |
| 22:40.56 | sjansen | LKML is doing the same thing, but they don't want less experience users to keep it on the list. |
| 22:41.02 | Bradipo | s/expense/convenience/ |
| 22:41.08 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, or you are making us do more work, at your expense |
| 22:41.16 | Bradipo | How is it any more work? |
| 22:41.23 | Jayce^ | how is it any more work for you? |
| 22:41.26 | sjansen | Most of us don't have a "reply to list" button. |
| 22:41.35 | sjansen | Evolution should be ashamed it doesn't. |
| 22:41.42 | Jayce^ | having to change the email address, just to keep the discussion going |
| 22:41.43 | Bradipo | It should indeed. |
| 22:41.47 | sjansen | But you'll never get one into Outlook or Yahoo Mail. |
| 22:41.50 | Bradipo | Even reply-to-all is better than reply-to. |
| 22:42.09 | Bradipo | Jayce^: hehe, I can see your point. |
| 22:42.19 | Bradipo | It's like the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. |
| 22:42.21 | sjansen | We're catering to the poor fool still using only web based email. |
| 22:42.27 | Bradipo | But in this case it's the smart get smarter and the dumb get dumber. |
| 22:42.39 | Jayce^ | see, the whole point of the plug list, is too create a community discussion, and archive it for later use.. |
| 22:42.39 | sjansen | Nah, we maintain a minimum level. |
| 22:42.50 | sjansen | The top posting, non-trimming get jumped on. |
| 22:43.00 | Jayce^ | if the discussion goes off list, no more archive, or community discussion.. |
| 22:43.02 | Bradipo | Jayce^: I completely agree with those goals. |
| 22:43.09 | dmdavis | if we require the use of Mutt, then everyone gets smarter... |
| 22:43.09 | Bradipo | But I don't agree with the method that is used to achieve them. |
| 22:43.33 | Bradipo | Jayce^: There is nothing wrong with an off-list discussion. |
| 22:43.40 | Bradipo | If it does go off-list then most likely they wanted it that way. |
| 22:43.41 | hans | I've got it. next time someone jumps on me for top-posting, I'll switch uug to not use reply-to |
| 22:43.44 | sjansen | You probably think that distro's are getting too easy to install too. |
| 22:43.50 | sjansen | It makes Linux users stupider. |
| 22:43.54 | Jayce^ | sure, if it's not something that is meant for the community.. |
| 22:43.57 | Bradipo | hans: Are you a top poster? |
| 22:43.59 | bonez39 | WINE anyone? |
| 22:44.10 | Jayce^ | but since that's the lesser number, in our forum, we use reply-to |
| 22:44.13 | Bradipo | sjansen: I didn't mean in difficulty... |
| 22:44.22 | Jayce^ | bonez39, not much.. just ask the question, then maybe one of us can help |
| 22:44.26 | Bradipo | I meant that you know I will take the time to research how to fix the reply-to problem. |
| 22:44.28 | hans | Bradipo: when they're small. i trim big stuff |
| 22:44.39 | Bradipo | It's a simple problem, but how many new users will accept such a challenge? |
| 22:44.44 | hans | I absolutely prefer top posting to bottom-posting, without question, both as a poster and reader. |
| 22:45.14 | Bradipo | Jayce^: But how many times has a private message been sent accidentally to the mailing list? |
| 22:45.32 | bonez39 | ok, I have a windows app that is giving me trouble..I get a C++ runtime error when I run parts within this windows app. I want to know, how I might try to run it here...using WINE..it uses BTIREVE record manager for its database....so BTRIEVE has to be loaded when Lytec (the program in question) loads up.... |
| 22:45.36 | Jayce^ | a lot less than I've accidentaly sent a list message to just a person when the lists are the opposite |
| 22:45.38 | Bradipo | They clearly wanted to take the discussion offline but weren't aware that PLUG was so belligerent to private discussions. |
| 22:46.05 | Bradipo | I have seen quite a few, ``I'm sorry, I don't know why this went to the list'' messages sent to PLUG in the past year alone. |
| 22:46.09 | Bradipo | Well, 2003. |
| 22:46.28 | Bradipo | I used to inform them why it went to the list and not privately as they expected. |
| 22:46.33 | Jayce^ | so I've answered people on lists, where the answer would do much good in the archive, and to the community.. but instead it goes to the person, and people looking never see the answer |
| 22:46.39 | Bradipo | I think it is natural and intuitive to expect reply to go directly to the user. |
| 22:46.43 | Bradipo | And reply-all to go to the group. |
| 22:46.59 | Bradipo | The list agrees. |
| 22:46.59 | sjansen | bonez39: No thanks, I'll pass. (No, I don't know anything about Wine. Sorry, you've stumbled into a flame war.) |
| 22:47.10 | Bradipo | Without reply-to you would most likely never see a private reply on a mailing list. |
| 22:47.14 | levi | If it was natural and intuitive, wouldn't everyone agree? |
| 22:47.24 | Bradipo | No. |
| 22:47.36 | Bradipo | levi: Because sometimes natural tendencies are influenced by environment. |
| 22:47.39 | hans | no, I can think of a few naturan and intuitive things people don't agree on. take liberty |
| 22:47.46 | hans | freedom, etc. any political issue |
| 22:47.53 | Bradipo | If the first time you use a mailing list you learn that it uses reply-to, you have been influenced. |
| 22:47.54 | Jayce^ | bonez39, eww.. I really dont' know.. I know an answer with wine at times, but only specific apps |
| 22:47.57 | hans | each person thinks it's plain as day, yet we disagree |
| 22:48.03 | levi | Since when are political ideas intuitive? |
| 22:48.17 | Jayce^ | levi, point.. :) |
| 22:48.17 | hans | political no, but wouldn't you say freedom is? |
| 22:48.27 | sjansen | Bradipo: It's a UI problem plain and simple. |
| 22:48.29 | levi | No. |
| 22:48.30 | hans | inalienable rights? |
| 22:48.33 | Bradipo | sjansen: I agree completely. |
| 22:48.34 | levi | No. |
| 22:48.47 | hans | see, there we go. already we disagree. :) |
| 22:48.48 | Bradipo | sjansen: The UI should be responsible for this and the backend server should not. :-) |
| 22:48.50 | levi | You have to think and reason about that stuff. |
| 22:48.51 | sjansen | Most MUA are deficient so we pick an imperfect solution to avoid a larger problem. |
| 22:49.02 | Bradipo | sjansen: Exactly the issue. |
| 22:49.11 | sjansen | Bradipo: Go lobby MS, Yahoo, etc. instead of us. |
| 22:49.20 | sjansen | Until then, we're trying to work around their bug. |
| 22:49.22 | levi | Or else there wouldn't be volumes of political/philisophical discourse about it. |
| 22:49.22 | hans | precisely. so why do we cater to broken software in linux yet jump down MS user's throats? |
| 22:49.35 | Bradipo | sjansen: to what end? |
| 22:49.49 | sjansen | hans: All we're doing it not forcing everyone to use mutt. |
| 22:49.49 | Bradipo | Why are you trying to work around their ``bug'' or non-feature as it stands. |
| 22:49.54 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, by default, you are saying a list message is a conversation between that person, and you... the community is secondary.. in a list, I see that as the opposite |
| 22:49.55 | Bradipo | No. |
| 22:50.12 | sjansen | Because I maintain that most people expect list messages to go back tot he list. |
| 22:50.29 | sjansen | Witness people who insist on starting new thread off of old. |
| 22:50.30 | Bradipo | Jayce^: I can see this point, but I don't necessarily believe that the list should be treated separately. |
| 22:50.39 | sjansen | They do it because they don't even know the list address. |
| 22:50.44 | hans | sjansen: exactly. what an idiotic thing to encourage |
| 22:50.50 | Bradipo | We should perform a study. |
| 22:51.00 | hans | it messes up my threads, and the threads of anyone who has a decent email client (not only mutt) |
| 22:51.17 | Bradipo | I don't think everyone should use mutt. |
| 22:51.35 | Bradipo | But I think everyone should be aware that there is a difference between reply and reply-all. |
| 22:51.36 | Jayce^ | hans, but that is a personal issue, just like interrupting somebody elses conversation with your own new topic |
| 22:51.53 | Bradipo | And the simple fact that there is a Reply button and are Reply-All button means that someone knows the difference. |
| 22:51.59 | bonez39 | sjansen: thanks...I guess I could pass along all the other file arguments..and see if that works..is there a #wine channel elsewhere? I don't find one on freenode |
| 22:52.00 | levi | How about that python language, eh? |
| 22:52.09 | sjansen | Bradipo: So I should get two replies? I hate that. |
| 22:52.11 | hans | nonsense. the only reason people start threads by replying is because they're lazy and that's the way the list works |
| 22:52.18 | Bradipo | I don't mind two replies. |
| 22:52.29 | sjansen | Which one do I respond to? If the private reply comes first, I mistakenly think the person wanted to go off list. |
| 22:52.43 | Bradipo | What if the mailing list server is down, or the network it is on is down, or any other number of issues happens in the time that they reply to my request, my plea for help. |
| 22:53.06 | Jayce^ | levi, starting a sub flame war.. while hijacking a thread... man you are ready to get kicked :) |
| 22:53.12 | Bradipo | I would much rather have a personal reply than have to wait 2 hours for the mailing list message to arrive. |
| 22:53.24 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, I can't stand having the two replies |
| 22:53.40 | levi | Jayce^: I'm just providing examples for the discussion at hand! ;) |
| 22:53.45 | Bradipo | Anyone ever hear about filters and headers? |
| 22:53.49 | Bradipo | Very cool concept... |
| 22:53.51 | sjansen | If you want an immediate reply, pay someone or hop on IRC. |
| 22:54.02 | sjansen | The list is about the _entire_ community benefiting. |
| 22:54.04 | Bradipo | You can have personal replies go to the inbox and list replies show up in the mailing list folder... |
| 22:54.09 | hans | irc, the place where wine questions go unanswered (sorry, bonez) and flames fly |
| 22:54.17 | hans | (bonez, I don't know the answer) |
| 22:54.25 | Bradipo | IRC the place where you get instantaneous flamage. |
| 22:54.36 | Bradipo | Jayce^: Precisely why you use a filter. |
| 22:54.56 | Bradipo | Anyone that is on more than a couple of mailing lists must be using a filter or be going mad. |
| 22:55.01 | sjansen | Filters?! Filters?! |
| 22:55.11 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, I do, but getting a personal in my inbox copy in addition to the nicely filtered one in it's box |
| 22:55.12 | levi | I can't believe you guys have such passionate beliefs about reply-to: headers. |
| 22:55.25 | sjansen | The problem is that one comes in first, the other comes in half and hour later. How's an filter supposed to help with that? |
| 22:55.47 | Bradipo | sjansen: You brought up the dual copy issue, not me. :-) |
| 22:55.55 | Bradipo | What is the number one reason for not wanting two copies? |
| 22:55.58 | Newsome | formail msgid cache |
| 22:55.59 | Bradipo | I don't get it. |
| 22:56.04 | sjansen | And don't tell me to filter off the [plug]. I filter off the x-list the way (deity) intended. |
| 22:56.13 | Jayce^ | ugh.... |
| 22:56.28 | Jayce^ | there will not be a [PLUG] as long as mike or I are in charge of it.. |
| 22:56.29 | Bradipo | sjansen: What is the number one reason for now wanting two copies? |
| 22:56.37 | sjansen | Some people hack off the subject, or cross-post thereby corrupting it. |
| 22:56.52 | Bradipo | In your opinion of course. |
| 22:57.16 | sjansen | The number one reason? If it's for the list, I want it in my list folder _and only_ my list folder. |
| 22:57.18 | Bradipo | We obviously have completely different opinions about what a mailing list is or isn't. :-) |
| 22:57.21 | dmdavis | I always reply to my main mail box mail first, then lists. Would annoy me to realyze that I should've replied to the list, and replied to the individual |
| 22:57.27 | sjansen | Opinion? Experience. x-list is the only sane option. |
| 22:57.41 | Bradipo | dmdavis: But there will be a To: you and Cc: list headers in there. |
| 22:57.42 | sjansen | dmdavis: exactly |
| 22:57.57 | Bradipo | How could you not know that they sent you a copy and Cc'd the list? |
| 22:58.02 | sjansen | So now I've got to complicate my filtering? |
| 22:58.18 | Bradipo | Do you not already filter mailing list messages? |
| 22:58.29 | Bradipo | Maybe I misunderstand... |
| 22:58.32 | sjansen | If it's in my inbox, it's private. I rarely bothering to check the To: 'cause I know it was for me. |
| 22:58.33 | Bradipo | How would it complicate anything? |
| 22:58.48 | Bradipo | I see. |
| 22:58.55 | Bradipo | So you assume anything in your inbox must be private. |
| 22:58.57 | sjansen | Now I've got to filter on To: and Cc: and Bcc: and X-List. |
| 22:59.05 | Bradipo | No need to filter Cc. |
| 22:59.13 | Bradipo | If you get a copy in your inbox it was addressed To you. |
| 22:59.21 | Bradipo | The Cc was meant for the mailing lists benefit. |
| 22:59.31 | sjansen | Then what do I do when I get a cross-post? It explodes into a copy in the Plug folder, a copy in the UUG folder, and a copy in my Inbox. |
| 22:59.32 | Bradipo | No need to filter To or Cc. |
| 22:59.42 | Bradipo | Use X-list or whatever the mailing list identifies itself with. |
| 23:00.02 | Bradipo | sjansen: This is also a reason why cross-posting is bad. :-) |
| 23:00.07 | sjansen | And the private copy I got? We're trying to determine that this wasn't taken off list. |
| 23:00.09 | Bradipo | sjansen: You're bring out all the points aren't you? :-) |
| 23:00.19 | Bradipo | Why try to determin. |
| 23:00.32 | Bradipo | Simple inspection of the message will show that it was Cc'ed to the list. |
| 23:00.33 | Bradipo | And thus not private. |
| 23:00.35 | sjansen | I'm not defending cross-posting, I'm showing that reply to all has greater deficiencies. |
| 23:01.20 | Bradipo | Again, how could you not know that the list was not taken off list if the Cc includes the mailing list? |
| 23:01.36 | sjansen | I'm at work. I'm hoping in quickly to see if there's any mail. I don't want to have to think. That's what my filters are for. |
| 23:02.05 | levi | Use some colorizing filters. If it's got a mailing list in the cc:, colorize it! |
| 23:02.09 | sjansen | And I _hate_ gettig two copies. |
| 23:02.23 | hans | sjansen: technically, that's the sender's problem |
| 23:02.27 | sjansen | Hate! Hate! Hate! |
| 23:02.35 | hans | the sender replied to all instead of to the list |
| 23:02.58 | Jayce^ | or is it the lists problem for encouraging that behaviour? |
| 23:03.00 | sjansen | Essentially its the fault of the person pushing reply to all. |
| 23:03.16 | sjansen | As in, requiring it. |
| 23:03.22 | Bradipo | hans: Yes, but how is a sender to know before hand that you don't want two copies. |
| 23:03.28 | Bradipo | ENTER: Mail-followup-to |
| 23:03.56 | Bradipo | sjansen: Well, it's the fault of email MUA developers for not devising a list-reply-all as well. |
| 23:04.04 | dmdavis | is the problem the mail client, or not understanding the list you're participating in? |
| 23:04.12 | hans | yup. or put it in your sig. a lot of people on other lists do that if they don't like two copies |
| 23:04.12 | Bradipo | But overloading reply-to shouldn't be the answer in my opinion. |
| 23:04.15 | dmdavis | you are a guest, learn how they do things |
| 23:04.16 | sjansen | That's it. Everyone should just be required to communicate by morse code! |
| 23:04.31 | Bradipo | dmdavis: Maybe it's not a technical problem at all, but a social one eh? |
| 23:04.42 | Bradipo | sjansen: Easy enough. |
| 23:04.54 | Bradipo | morse < message.txt | mail plug@pluglist.txt |
| 23:04.59 | hans | html email is social as well |
| 23:05.18 | sjansen | reply-to is more friendly to a larger part of the pop. in a Plug setting. End of story. |
| 23:05.25 | dmdavis | Bradipo: sure. that's why one generally lurks before participating |
| 23:05.50 | sjansen | If only we could still get people to lurk. |
| 23:05.53 | Bradipo | reply-to is friendly to the mailing list, not to the people that participate on the mailing list. |
| 23:06.07 | sjansen | Back in my day, we learned about stuff before making pains of ourselves. |
| 23:06.10 | Bradipo | The first time you flame someone privately and it ends up on the mailing list you will know exactly what I'm talking about. |
| 23:06.18 | Bradipo | I would rather not run the risk of looking like a fool in public. :-) |
| 23:06.30 | sjansen | I read two books on linux and knocked myself unconscious before actively joining the community. |
| 23:06.30 | dmdavis | making you take off your shoes is friendly to my house, not to those who come into it. But it's my house |
| 23:06.34 | Jayce^ | ibot, sjansen is also Back in my day, we learned about stuff before making pains of ourselves. |
| 23:06.36 | | cannot alter locked factoids, Jayce^ |
| 23:06.36 | | You are moron #15, Jayce^ |
| 23:06.39 | Bradipo | sjansen: lurking is good, I like lurking. :-) |
| 23:06.43 | Jayce^ | d'oh |
| 23:06.49 | sjansen | Bradipo: So don't flame, or don't be ashamed of it. |
| 23:06.59 | Bradipo | dmdavis: A very good point, whose house is PLUG now? |
| 23:07.17 | Jayce^ | mike owns the box |
| 23:07.45 | Bradipo | sjansen: there are other reasons than just flames. |
| 23:09.09 | dmdavis | Bradipo: probably the PLUG president, but that's a good point.. hard to declare ownership of something like that |
| 23:09.51 | Bradipo | Yeah. |
| 23:09.55 | Bradipo | Well, I don't care who maintains it. |
| 23:10.00 | hans | besides, we've already determined reply-to hurts the list by getting private replies. |
| 23:10.25 | Bradipo | And the maintainer can decide what is done with PLUG. |
| 23:11.01 | Bradipo | I will voice my opinion until I have reason to believe that I am wrong. |
| 23:11.01 | Jayce^ | he just get's bitched at by Bradipo a lot about it :) |
| 23:11.19 | Bradipo | I haven't pestered the maintainer in a long while about it. |
| 23:11.37 | Bradipo | It's probably been a year since I last sent him a request to disable reply-to. :-) |
| 23:12.01 | Bradipo | Now, who had a problem with WINE? ;-) |
| 23:12.07 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, yeah, I kept hearing about it from him.. |
| 23:12.07 | Bradipo | bonez39: You get that figured out in the meantime? |
| 23:12.21 | Bradipo | Hehe. |
| 23:12.55 | hans | well that was a refreshing flame war. work is starting to look appetizing again. |
| 23:13.03 | Bradipo | lol |
| 23:13.13 | Bradipo | Much more fun in IRC. |
| 23:13.23 | Bradipo | Anyone up for a game of UT? |
| 23:13.33 | Bradipo | :-) |
| 23:14.38 | dmdavis | thanks for the fun, entertaining discussion. :) |
| 23:14.41 | bonez39 | Bradipo: no, haven't resolved it yet |
| 23:17.33 | sjansen | What was the problem again? |
| 23:18.06 | Bradipo | <bonez39> ok, I have a windows app that is giving me trouble..I get a C++ runtime error when I run parts within this windows app. I want to know, how I might try to run it here...using WINE..it uses BTIREVE record manager for its database....so BTRIEVE has to be loaded when Lytec (the program in question) loads up.... |
| 23:19.20 | Bradipo | I don't know much about BTIREVE so I'm of no help here. |
| 23:20.22 | Bradipo | And I'm not a big fan of WINE either, I would rather just run Windows for Windows apps (or use VMWare). |
| 23:23.39 | Newsome | Bradipo, do you know Stephen Langer? |
| 23:24.11 | Bradipo | I remember setting up his account. |
| 23:24.20 | Bradipo | Wait, maybe I don't. |
| 23:24.21 | Bradipo | Who is he? |
| 23:24.38 | Newsome | Is that the new guy that was hired recently to run the SCOSource thing? |
| 23:24.48 | Bradipo | I thought his name was Phil... |
| 23:25.13 | Bradipo | I don't know a Stephen Langer, and I haven't ever met Phil Langer. |
| 23:25.26 | Bradipo | So, I don't *know* him per se. |
| 23:25.27 | Newsome | Okay. Strange. |
| 23:25.45 | Bradipo | You looking at that document? |
| 23:25.59 | Newsome | Not right now, but I've seen it |
| 23:26.31 | Newsome | It was a letter signed Stephen Langer |
| 23:26.40 | Bradipo | The ``extortion'' letter? |
| 23:26.55 | Newsome | yes |
| 23:27.04 | Bradipo | Maybe it's his brother? |
| 23:27.30 | Newsome | wait, I guess you're right. Philip |
| 23:27.38 | Bradipo | :-) |
| 23:27.45 | Bradipo | I was just about to send you the link again... |
| 23:27.51 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, hey, sco is a family business, just ask kevin and darl :) |
| 23:28.03 | Newsome | I was saying Stephen because there aren't any other Langers listed in Utah |
| 23:28.07 | Bradipo | Haha, I tried to get my brother on here too.. |
| 23:28.11 | Bradipo | Didn't work though. |
| 23:28.19 | Bradipo | He's a graphic artist and we already have one of those. |
| 23:28.57 | Bradipo | I don't think I would want to make my brother a legal representative. |
| 23:29.07 | Bradipo | What if he lost my case? |
| 23:29.17 | Bradipo | Would that put a strain on our family ties... |
| 23:29.30 | Jayce^ | no kidding |
| 23:29.35 | Bradipo | That's the way I see it anyway, others are different I suppose. |
| 23:29.37 | Newsome | So, then is Philip Langer the guy who was recently hired to run SCOSource? |
| 23:29.51 | Bradipo | But then again, who would you trust more with your livelihood? |
| 23:30.09 | Bradipo | I'm not sure when he was hired. |
| 23:30.16 | Bradipo | So I'm not certain. |
| 23:30.39 | Newsome | okay |
| 23:31.22 | Bradipo | http://www.sco.com/company/execs/csontag.html |
| 23:31.27 | Bradipo | Is that who you are thinking about? |
| 23:32.58 | Newsome | no, not Sontag. |
| 23:33.25 | Newsome | The "extortion" letter says Philip Langer, Regional Director, Intellectual Property Licensing |
| 23:33.31 | Bradipo | Right. |
| 23:33.54 | Bradipo | I don't really know who he is. |
| 23:34.04 | *** join/#utah HarleyPig (~knoppix@dslpool4029.networldnoc.net) |
| 23:34.34 | HarleyPig | Anyone know of a free terminal server for Winblows? I need to check something out on IE. |
| 23:34.37 | Newsome | I'm still wondering if he sent out a lot of similar letters, or just the one. I haven't heard of any others. |
| 23:34.46 | Jayce^ | HarleyPig, VNC? |
| 23:34.52 | Bradipo | I haven't either. |
| 23:34.55 | Jayce^ | not a real TS, but remote access |
| 23:34.55 | hans | rdesktop? |
| 23:34.57 | HarleyPig | If that's available or rdesktop. |
| 23:35.09 | Bradipo | Maybe it's a falsified document? |
| 23:35.09 | Jayce^ | hans, rdesktop is only a client, for TS |
| 23:35.13 | hans | oic |
| 23:35.15 | HarleyPig | Just somethign so I can interactively test a web page. |
| 23:35.22 | HarleyPig | On IE> |
| 23:35.32 | Jayce^ | HarleyPig, I'd do VNC.. all the infogenix guys have tightVNC usually |
| 23:35.51 | HarleyPig | Thanks. I didn't think of that. |
| 23:36.00 | Newsome | Bradipo: Yeah, that's part of the question. If only one person receives it, how do we really know he got it? |
| 23:36.38 | Bradipo | Well, I suppose only Phil could answer that. |
| 23:36.41 | Newsome | I guess time will tell, but I always get impatient :) |
| 23:36.46 | Jayce^ | seems like sco would point out if it was a fake real fast.. |
| 23:36.47 | Bradipo | One day PGP or something similar will help out here. |
| 23:36.58 | Bradipo | I don't know if anyone here really knows about it. |
| 23:37.10 | Bradipo | Maybe I'll mention it to my boss. :-) |
| 23:37.28 | Bradipo | That does look like our letterhead. |
| 23:38.07 | Newsome | Probably already seen it, but as there is a lot of speculation about its authenticity... |
| 23:38.48 | Bradipo | It looks like a faxed copy to me. |
| 23:39.09 | Bradipo | Me either really, but who knows. |
| 23:39.24 | Newsome | Yeah, apparently the guy who received it was at home, and had the office fax it to him |
| 23:39.33 | Bradipo | Also, where is the phone number? |
| 23:39.39 | Bradipo | And the email address? |
| 23:39.40 | HarleyPig | Well crap. |
| 23:40.02 | Jayce^ | no thanks, already went |
| 23:40.37 | Bradipo | http://www.gavinroy.com/~gavinr/sco_threat_big.gif |
| 23:40.44 | Bradipo | This is a much more leggible copy. |
| 23:41.22 | Bradipo | I guess he whited out the phone and email, but missed one of the numbers. :-) |
| 23:41.35 | Newsome | either Philip was really forgetful or someone blocked them out? :) |
| 23:41.49 | Bradipo | Well, whoever blocked them out missed one. |
| 23:42.23 | Newsome | gotta go pick up my car at the shop. Thanks for the info. |
| 23:42.27 | Bradipo | But those are just our standard letterhead numbers. |
| 23:42.35 | Bradipo | Later. |
| 23:45.00 | HarleyPig | Can someone look at http://dawtech.infogenix.com/test_select.html and tell me what the heck I'm doing wrong? That should be a select box. |
| 23:45.25 | Bradipo | Do you have more than one element in the list? |
| 23:45.30 | HarleyPig | Yep. |
| 23:45.42 | Jayce^ | size="1" |
| 23:45.56 | Jayce^ | therefore it's only showing a single row |
| 23:46.36 | Jayce^ | if you add a size element, that's as far as it goes |
| 23:47.14 | HarleyPig | That's what I get for trusting in.pm |
| 23:47.38 | HarleyPig | :> |
| 23:47.45 | HarleyPig | curb stompin'! |
| 23:49.40 | Jayce^ | oh yeah |
| 23:57.07 | Bradipo | [lurking on] |
| 23:57.36 | HarleyPig | [wonder twin powers ... ACTIVATE!] |
