| 00:01.20 | emcnabb | linode rocks |
| 00:05.05 | sjansen | BTW, Newsome, if you ever need I can host near the end of the month. |
| 00:10.46 | emcnabb | sjansen, so how are you doing today? |
| 00:12.37 | sjansen | Kicking back. Slowly configuring the linode, designing a simple program to host on it. |
| 00:13.29 | emcnabb | cool |
| 00:13.38 | emcnabb | what did you end up writing your 428 paper on? |
| 00:15.05 | sjansen | Recycled my essay on free software. |
| 00:17.05 | emcnabb | I did testing in OSS |
| 01:11.01 | *** join/#utah jason_u (~jason@166.70.87.122) |
| 02:02.05 | *** join/#utah No_Stop (~polarison@200-181-253-197.fozit7002.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br) |
| 02:07.15 | Newsome | hello |
| 02:20.42 | *** join/#utah torriem (~torriem@c-67-161-219-205.client.comcast.net) |
| 02:21.03 | Hanuman | sjansen: what's a linode? |
| 02:21.36 | torriem | www.linode.com |
| 02:23.46 | *** part/#utah No_Stop (~polarison@200-181-253-197.fozit7002.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br) |
| 02:25.33 | Hanuman | ahh - virtual servers |
| 02:25.44 | emcnabb | they work really well |
| 02:25.50 | torriem | yes. And very well packaged too. I'm thinking of buying a node sometime soon |
| 02:27.01 | Hanuman | sounds like a great thing if you need the bandwidth for something reliable |
| 02:27.44 | torriem | Or just a place you can get to from anywhere in the world and have full shell access. |
| 02:28.06 | Hanuman | I can do that with my home machine as long as my DSL line doesn't go down. |
| 02:28.16 | torriem | Although I enjoy sshing into my cable-modem hosted box, it's quite slow (lots of latency) |
| 02:28.17 | emcnabb | I used to host stuff off my cable modem but it was slow, unreliable, and against the contract |
| 02:30.02 | Hanuman | mine hasn't been too bad - AFIK, I haven't signed anything with Verizon that says I can't run a server out of my home - in fact I've told their support and noone said anything against it |
| 02:30.13 | torriem | I think you could probably put up a vnc server of some kind (with heavier encryption) and get a unix desktop anywhere in the world through the browser. |
| 02:30.20 | emcnabb | DSL is different than cable |
| 02:30.34 | Hanuman | It isn't near as fast as some of the professionally hosted boxes I work out of, though |
| 02:30.45 | torriem | Comcast's agreement definitely forbids it, although I have a web server running on 3 ports and they haven't compained. |
| 02:30.57 | torriem | But 30 kbytes/s upload is pretty poor for web serving from cable |
| 02:31.09 | Hanuman | torriem: yes, Comcast tends to refresh their IP's much less, though |
| 02:31.23 | Hanuman | I kind of miss my Comcast connection |
| 02:31.24 | torriem | True. I've had the same IP address for months and months |
| 02:31.36 | emcnabb | what is the extention .7b5 |
| 02:31.37 | Hanuman | is it 30 kb/s now? |
| 02:31.39 | torriem | I just wish I had more even upload/download rates |
| 02:31.53 | Hanuman | maybe DSL is better then |
| 02:32.20 | torriem | It's been 256 kbits/s up, 1.5 Mb/s down for a while now, although I hear they are bumping the rates to 2.5 Mb/s down, 512 up. |
| 02:32.47 | torriem | (256 kbit/s is about 30 kbytes/s) |
| 02:33.16 | Hanuman | torriem: ok - I was confusing myself - that is better than my DSL then |
| 02:34.27 | emcnabb | later all |
| 02:34.33 | torriem | have a good date |
| 02:35.03 | emcnabb | no date for me tonight |
| 02:36.35 | Hanuman | byu game? |
| 02:36.57 | torriem | Is there a basketball game tonight? |
| 02:37.03 | Hanuman | yeah - playing USC |
| 02:37.15 | Hanuman | I just missed the score, though |
| 02:37.25 | Hanuman | BYU really needs to win - USC isn't very good |
| 02:37.36 | torriem | Ahh |
| 02:37.48 | Hanuman | If they do win I think it could possibly put them in the top 25 |
| 02:38.12 | torriem | That would be nice to have a men's team in some sport that does well. After football... |
| 02:38.19 | Hanuman | yeah |
| 02:38.26 | Hanuman | how's volleyball doing this year? |
| 02:38.38 | torriem | Pretty good i think. I don't follow any sports at all, though. |
| 02:39.02 | Hanuman | I was up there when they won the national championships - only time I've ever watched a college volleyball game |
| 02:39.14 | torriem | :) |
| 02:42.18 | Hanuman | oh to live in Vancouver right now and know an EA employee... |
| 02:43.14 | torriem | what's happening with EA in Vancouver? |
| 02:43.39 | Hanuman | ~slashdot |
| 02:43.50 | Hanuman | read the first article |
| 02:44.08 | torriem | Oh yeah. I did read that |
| 02:44.22 | Hanuman | that is a cool benefit |
| 02:46.10 | torriem | yeah. Almost as good a benefit as full dental coverage, medical and eye coverage. :) |
| 02:46.54 | torriem | well I'm off to a birthday party. |
| 02:46.58 | torriem | goodbye all |
| 02:47.01 | *** part/#utah torriem (~torriem@c-67-161-219-205.client.comcast.net) |
| 03:00.57 | Hanuman | up by 14 at the half - very cool |
| 03:04.13 | Hanuman | Man - mod_perl is awesome for writing "images" that look like images but collect information |
| 03:46.07 | Hanuman | I think BYU could very well make top 25 after this game if it continues the way it is |
| 03:48.16 | Bradipo | Any of you happen to have any contacts with the blackhat community? :-) |
| 03:51.39 | Hanuman | just redhats here... |
| 03:52.32 | sjansen | I own a brown hat. |
| 03:52.37 | Hanuman | although I watch TechTV sometimes - does that make me a blackhat? |
| 03:53.07 | Hanuman | my redhat just became a fedora, though |
| 03:53.38 | sjansen | Bradipo: Looking to find some hired guns? |
| 03:53.50 | Bradipo | Sure. |
| 03:54.02 | Hanuman | My cousin's a cryptologist, but I doubt he knows blackhats |
| 03:54.05 | Bradipo | Someone that knows where this traffic is coming from... |
| 03:54.20 | Bradipo | Pray that you guys never have to suffer a DoS. |
| 03:54.33 | Bradipo | You will find incompetency at every turn. |
| 03:54.34 | sjansen | I can see the headlines now "SCO Hires Cyber-Hitman to Fight Back Against DoS" |
| 03:54.43 | Hanuman | I pray that I never have to suffer a DoS when the entire blackhat community hates my company |
| 03:56.07 | Hanuman | I'm sure there's someone out there that would work for enough money, though |
| 03:56.29 | Bradipo | Unfortunately I haven't enough money to offer. |
| 03:56.46 | Bradipo | We are already paying a lot of money for what we have in place. |
| 03:56.54 | Hanuman | Although Microsoft has offered quite a bit of money to find the makers of it's viruses and noone has come forward yet |
| 03:56.58 | hans | Bradipo: I'll wear a black hat if you pay me enough. And I don't even like hats |
| 03:57.03 | Hanuman | from what I know |
| 03:57.05 | Bradipo | But no matter how much you spend there is infinitely more bandwidth available on the thousands of hacked hosts. |
| 03:57.19 | Bradipo | I thought that they caught the guy... |
| 03:57.38 | Hanuman | Bradipo: they caught one of the guys before Micro$oft offered the bounty |
| 03:57.39 | Bradipo | Didn't they catch one of the virus writers? |
| 03:57.42 | sjansen | If so, I haven't heard about it. |
| 03:57.43 | Bradipo | Oh, be3fore. |
| 03:57.47 | Hanuman | but that was just one of the variants |
| 03:57.53 | Hanuman | a minor one |
| 03:58.01 | Bradipo | The root of the problem is the ISP. |
| 03:58.37 | Hanuman | Are they not giving out much info? |
| 03:58.45 | Bradipo | They are incompetent, unwilling to cooperate and allow this kind of thing because they refuse to filter traffic that doesn't come from their network. |
| 03:58.48 | Bradipo | Well, in general. |
| 03:59.03 | Hanuman | I'll host your website |
| 03:59.10 | Bradipo | For example, how hard is it to figure out where 100,000 packets per second are coming from? |
| 03:59.12 | Hanuman | you can have full access to all my logs |
| 03:59.15 | Bradipo | Haha. |
| 03:59.38 | Bradipo | Hmm, it's coming from the AT&T peer. |
| 03:59.38 | Hanuman | I don't think 128 Kb upstream will handle a DoS, though |
| 03:59.44 | Bradipo | Let's give AT&T a call. |
| 04:00.03 | Bradipo | ``Hey, can you tell me where these 50,000 packets per second are coming from?'' |
| 04:00.25 | Bradipo | But all this would be moot if they were competent and wouldn't allow packets to leave their network unless they came from their own IP space. |
| 04:00.34 | Bradipo | I believe that's called ingress and egress filtering. |
| 04:01.01 | Bradipo | Anyway, what are all you doing in here on a Saturday night? :-) |
| 04:01.02 | Hanuman | I think SCO finally has a couple lawsuits they could win here... ;-) |
| 04:01.07 | Bradipo | Shouldn't you all be out on dates or something. |
| 04:01.11 | Hanuman | I'm listening to the BYU game |
| 04:01.20 | Bradipo | Which? |
| 04:01.22 | Hanuman | my wife is morning sick and asleep |
| 04:01.25 | Hanuman | Basketball |
| 04:01.27 | sjansen | What is this "date" thing I keep hearing about? |
| 04:01.56 | Hanuman | wow - byu 86 USC 61 final score |
| 04:02.08 | Bradipo | Not bad. |
| 04:02.11 | Hanuman | that's good for PAC 10 |
| 04:02.34 | Hanuman | some great plays, too - wish I could have seen it |
| 04:02.56 | Hanuman | too bad their football team messed up against USC |
| 04:03.01 | Hanuman | they almost had that game, too |
| 04:03.34 | Bradipo | Doesn't the Y football team suck this year? |
| 04:03.52 | Hanuman | yeah, but they *almost* beat USC, rated #1 in the nation |
| 04:04.13 | Hanuman | they lost just in the last quarter |
| 04:04.51 | Bradipo | Almost... probably got prideful in the end. :-) |
| 04:05.14 | Hanuman | yeah - it was a home game - probably most definitely (if that makes any sense whatsoever) |
| 04:06.20 | Hanuman | I somehow feel guilty writing a web-bug for a client right now, but I'm having so much fun doing it! |
| 04:07.20 | Bradipo | What's a web-bug? |
| 04:07.48 | Hanuman | a little pixel displayed in an e-mail that collects browser info, whether the e-mail was viewed, mainly for marketing purposes |
| 04:07.55 | Hanuman | some people consider it "spying" |
| 04:08.14 | Hanuman | IMO, if it's "spying", then you shouldn't use a web-browser at all |
| 04:11.22 | Bradipo | Ahh, yeah. |
| 04:11.41 | Bradipo | I consider that spyware. |
| 04:12.07 | Bradipo | But you didn't say web browser, you said email. |
| 04:12.34 | Bradipo | Most people are completely ignorant of the fact that this kind of thing is possible. |
| 04:12.46 | Bradipo | I do not use an email client that understands HTML. |
| 04:13.06 | sjansen | I don't use an email client that downloads images without my permission. |
| 04:13.06 | Bradipo | Hence I have no fears about ``marketing spys'' finding out information about me in that fashion. |
| 04:15.19 | Hanuman | Most people that don't know things like that are happening don't care if the type of information that is allowed to be collected is collected, though |
| 04:15.50 | Hanuman | My e-mail client disables images by default, but I can enable them w/ the click of a button |
| 04:16.11 | Hanuman | Most opt-in e-mails have web-bugs |
| 04:17.08 | sjansen | I'm not as bothered by opt-in stuff, it's the spam that bugs me. |
| 04:17.21 | Hanuman | yeah - I agree with that - definitely |
| 04:17.29 | Hanuman | the spam usually does more agressive measures |
| 04:17.32 | Hanuman | like hiding url's |
| 04:17.37 | sjansen | Well, as long as they're not sharing with doubleclick, etc. |
| 04:17.50 | Hanuman | or embedding viruses in the html of the link you click |
| 04:18.10 | Hanuman | sjansen: I'm not a big fan of that either |
| 04:18.11 | Bradipo | Most opt-in emails aren't really opt-in |
| 04:18.20 | Bradipo | They are opt-out. |
| 04:18.32 | Hanuman | these are opt-in |
| 04:18.45 | Hanuman | the e-mails weren't harvested |
| 04:18.59 | Bradipo | And do you verify that the subcriber really wanted to be subscribed by sending a confirmation request? |
| 04:19.16 | sjansen | I consider opt-out spam. However, if I'm signed up for a service and there's a checkbox there clearly stating that I'll get messages, even if it's checked by default, I consider that opt-in. |
| 04:19.22 | Bradipo | Or is it possible for me to subscribe anyone to the list by simply submitting their email address? |
| 04:19.37 | brailsmt | i consider processed meat that comes in cans to be spam... |
| 04:19.48 | brailsmt | :) |
| 04:19.54 | Bradipo | I can eat a little spam now and again. |
| 04:19.54 | Hanuman | we don't do that part, but I believe my client has a clause in his contract with his own clients requiring certain qualifications requiring it to be opt-in |
| 04:19.55 | sjansen | brailsmt: Nah, that's spiced ham. |
| 04:20.33 | Bradipo | But does that prevent someone outside of the contract from subscribing a user? |
| 04:20.43 | Hanuman | Bradipo: I don't have as much a problem with that either - if a friend signs me up, it's not as bad as the company taking my e-mail w/o my permission |
| 04:20.59 | sjansen | And a disgrunted neighbor signing you up? |
| 04:21.11 | sjansen | For 45 different lists? |
| 04:21.20 | Hanuman | I'm not concerned about that - that's my client's responsibility |
| 04:21.32 | Bradipo | Right, but what if I'm pissed off and decide to subscribe all my enemies to this mailing list? ;-) |
| 04:21.41 | Hanuman | My spam filter stops most of those anyway |
| 04:21.59 | Bradipo | Right, but you wouldn't need to filter it at all if you weren't added in the first place. |
| 04:22.04 | Bradipo | That's what I mean by opt-out... |
| 04:22.15 | Hanuman | most spam I get aren't from people that hate me |
| 04:22.30 | Hanuman | most spam I get are harvested |
| 04:23.03 | Hanuman | true, it's possible, but unlikely at the moment |
| 04:23.09 | Hanuman | that's why it doesn't bother me as much |
| 04:23.13 | Bradipo | You are aware of the new spam laws that are coming into play in 2004 right? |
| 04:23.25 | Hanuman | That's my client's responsibility |
| 04:23.33 | Bradipo | Cool. |
| 04:23.34 | Hanuman | His company is the one that would get sued |
| 04:23.41 | Bradipo | I see. |
| 04:23.52 | Hanuman | I just do what I think is right on my end, and leave the rest up to him |
| 04:24.09 | Bradipo | Hmm, sounds familiar. |
| 04:24.33 | Hanuman | I take responsibility for what I do - I can't watch all of his actions |
| 04:24.54 | Bradipo | We do what is right on our end, with respect to maintaining a good network, yet it is our fault that our network can't handle a DoS. |
| 04:25.53 | Hanuman | I don't think anyone is blaming you for being DoS'd - I just think some people think certain people w/i your organization staged the DoS, which would be your company's responsibility |
| 04:26.02 | sjansen | It's stupid to fault anyone for not being able to withstand a DoS. Until we come up with a break through, it's a threoretical impossiblity. |
| 04:26.13 | Bradipo | No, we are being blamed for being DoSed. |
| 04:26.23 | Bradipo | I take it you don't read groklaw.com very much. |
| 04:26.26 | Bradipo | All the better. |
| 04:26.28 | Hanuman | Bradipo: I'm not blaming you |
| 04:26.32 | Bradipo | They are way off in their own world. |
| 04:26.48 | Hanuman | groklaw is a bit liberal and on the offensive side IMO |
| 04:26.48 | sjansen | You're suring that you're not confusing that with acting so stupidly you egged on a DoS? |
| 04:26.53 | Bradipo | I agree. |
| 04:27.01 | Hanuman | They are a good service other than that |
| 04:27.07 | Bradipo | AFter reading groklaw, slashdot seems a lot more competent than ever before. |
| 04:27.36 | Bradipo | I didn't think that anything could beat slashdot when it comes to incoherent, incompetent arguments. |
| 04:28.02 | sjansen | You obviously haven't gotten into many religious "discussions." |
| 04:28.35 | Hanuman | I've seen smart statements from both sides, as well as incompetent on both sides. I don't read enough groklaw though to tell who has been more incompetent. |
| 04:29.12 | brailsmt | just because groklaw jumps to a conclusion about the DoS, doesn't make them incoherent... but its just fine with if the people at SCO don'e pay attention to groklaw... |
| 04:29.35 | Bradipo | Unfortunately, people pay attention to groklaw, both in and out of SCO. |
| 04:29.41 | Hanuman | I do know that SCO is suing alot of people and drawing alot of attention to themselves, though |
| 04:29.51 | Hanuman | which in turn has brought alot of attention to groklaw |
| 04:29.51 | brailsmt | groklaw only gets into trouble when it gets away from the law... |
| 04:30.08 | Bradipo | They should focus on the law, this is true. |
| 04:30.11 | Bradipo | And not speculate. |
| 04:30.24 | brailsmt | it does a great job when putting its research online for the rest of us... |
| 04:31.01 | brailsmt | the fact that they appear IBM's court filings speaks volumes... |
| 04:32.06 | brailsmt | and the stuff that the groklaw community digs up is truly amazing... |
| 04:32.30 | sjansen | I don't think that what the foot soldier are saying matters as much as the leaders. Most of the Linux community leaders have been responsible and intelligent (although not above ridicule when its deserved). SCO, OTOH, has been repeatedly moronic. The GPL is un-constitutional! Hello? You want how much per CPU? Microsoft isn't even charging that much and they wrote or purchased all the code. |
| 04:32.45 | brailsmt | ie, the current stuff on Tigran Aivaizin... |
| 04:33.51 | brailsmt | groklaw == distributed legal research... |
| 04:35.49 | brailsmt | i generally stay away from the comments on both /. and groklaw... |
| 04:37.24 | sjansen | I think it's hilarious seeing posts on /. with sigs complaining about posts on /. |
| 04:37.59 | sjansen | The only time I ever read the comments is when somebody ask for humourous stories. |
| 04:39.24 | Hanuman | I only read the comments when I need to defend something against what I believe in, or derogatory comments are being made against something I believe in |
| 04:41.03 | sjansen | I did like the analogy I read somewhere today. SCO's approach so far has been the equivalent of accusing your neighbor of taking something from your car trunk then calling the police and resusing to say what it was or let anyone open the trunk. |
| 04:42.06 | sjansen | IIRC, that was Alan Cox. |
| 04:53.48 | *** join/#utah spr5 (~spr5@auth11-2.ycell.octelecom.net) |
| 04:54.59 | Bradipo | brailsmt: you stay away from those comments, but most don't, and certainly the press doesn't. |
| 04:55.34 | Bradipo | The only reason why I even read it now is to see if maybe someone will slip up and brag about our site being down. :-) |
| 04:57.09 | Bradipo | And to see if anything might be coming my way. |
| 05:12.45 | *** join/#utah uugDave (~Smith@166.70.226.189) |
| 05:14.16 | Hanuman | Bradipo: what are your responsibilities there? |
| 05:19.03 | Bradipo | I'm one of the two system/network administrators. |
| 05:19.16 | Bradipo | I do mostly systems. |
| 05:19.34 | Bradipo | But know enough about networks to handle that as well as backup when our network admin is out. |
| 05:19.46 | Bradipo | So my job is on the line here. |
| 05:20.16 | Bradipo | Unfortunately, I am completely at the mercy of the ISPs and their cooperation. |
| 05:20.24 | Hanuman | fun... |
| 05:20.32 | Hanuman | I empathize with you |
| 05:20.33 | Bradipo | Right. |
| 05:20.41 | Bradipo | I'm not seeking any pity though. :-) |
| 05:21.11 | Bradipo | But I am seriously annoyed at the levels of incompetence I have encountered. |
| 05:21.32 | Bradipo | You would think that with 72 hours of good steady DoS flows you would be able to track it anywhere in the world. |
| 05:21.39 | Bradipo | Heck, I could fly from ISP to ISP in less time than that. |
| 05:21.40 | Hanuman | Bradipo: you could always ask for help on bugtrak, but be prepared for more publicity |
| 05:22.06 | Bradipo | Yeah. |
| 05:22.09 | Hanuman | Did you read the pigeon thing on /. today? |
| 05:22.09 | Bradipo | I'm on bugtrak... |
| 05:22.12 | Bradipo | Just never post. |
| 05:22.15 | Bradipo | I didn't. |
| 05:22.58 | Hanuman | Just about how some company is using them to fly digital camera photos to their main HQ for tours and how the pigeons are faster than the network |
| 05:23.17 | Hanuman | I tried to post to bugtrak once, but got moderated |
| 05:23.19 | Bradipo | lol |
| 05:23.32 | Bradipo | If they don't resize the images, then sure. |
| 05:23.35 | *** part/#utah uugDave (~Smith@166.70.226.189) |
| 05:23.42 | Bradipo | My camera produces 18MB images if I want. |
| 05:24.00 | Bradipo | But that doesn't do anyone else any good if they can't download it. |
| 05:24.04 | Bradipo | I have to first resize it. |
| 05:24.07 | Hanuman | it was actually to the focus-ms list, some guy complaining at all the Linux users saying bad things about Microsoft |
| 05:24.09 | Bradipo | And that can take time. |
| 05:24.15 | Hanuman | claiming they don't use M$ themselves |
| 05:24.20 | Bradipo | Right... |
| 05:24.33 | Bradipo | I would be willing to bet that most linux users actually use Windows on their desktops. |
| 05:24.52 | Hanuman | I sympathize with you on the time thing and photos - I have 700+Mb RAM on my computer and it still takes awhile to edit photos |
| 05:24.57 | Bradipo | In fact, by looking at the emails we've received at kris_kringle@sco.com, the majority of folks are using Outlook on Windows. |
| 05:25.03 | Hanuman | possibly |
| 05:25.21 | Hanuman | I do most of the time at home, and at work because I'm forced to |
| 05:25.30 | Bradipo | Of course maybe the sample is skewed in that only Windows sympathizers are dumb enough to send to it. |
| 05:25.42 | Bradipo | Excluding bartw (aka bartaway) of course. |
| 05:26.13 | Bradipo | I'm actually using OpenBSD right now (on my laptop). |
| 05:26.19 | Hanuman | My last job we used just Linux on the desktop - that was cool, and made alot of sense considering all of our development was on Linux machines |
| 05:26.20 | Bradipo | I have linux on my main desktop. |
| 05:26.29 | Bradipo | Yeah, that would make sense. |
| 05:26.37 | Hanuman | I'm getting an ibook here soon that will be my main desktop |
| 05:26.47 | Hanuman | I've got a dual-boot for my home machine |
| 05:27.01 | Hanuman | and I'm typing right now on a Linux server in my closet through ssh and irssi |
| 05:27.01 | Bradipo | I can't stand dual boot. |
| 05:27.10 | Bradipo | Except on a laptop maybe. |
| 05:27.34 | Bradipo | Man, you must be paranoid to type from withing your closet. |
| 05:27.38 | Bradipo | ;-) |
| 05:27.55 | Hanuman | I do the dual-boot so I can try new things every so often on the desktop for Linux. My wife and I prefer Windows for home use, though |
| 05:27.59 | Hanuman | lol |
| 05:28.17 | Bradipo | I knew that some linux fanatics were addicted, but not enough to hang out in the closet... |
| 05:28.22 | Hanuman | I prefer Linux for it's speed and lack of cost, but Windows still has some superior applications for home use |
| 05:28.34 | Bradipo | Yep. |
| 05:28.40 | Bradipo | I really don't need anything in Windows. |
| 05:28.51 | Bradipo | The only thing that I sacrifice by being all Linux/BSD are decent games. |
| 05:28.59 | Hanuman | thank goodness for ssh (on the closet thing) |
| 05:29.06 | Bradipo | Oh yeah. |
| 05:29.40 | Hanuman | I just really like my tv app along with my scanner app and then Quicken |
| 05:29.58 | *** join/#utah spr5_ (~spr5@auth11-2.ycell.octelecom.net) |
| 05:30.10 | Hanuman | Oh, and MusicMatch |
| 05:30.23 | Hanuman | replace all of those in Linux and I've got no reason to be in Windows |
| 05:30.41 | Bradipo | Same for a lot of people. |
| 05:30.42 | Hanuman | MythTV is superior if you don't need to do anything else at the same time on the same computer |
| 05:30.49 | Bradipo | My brother-in-law would use linux if it had Quicken. |
| 05:31.00 | Bradipo | He hates Windows for all the viruses and problems he's had with it. |
| 05:31.03 | Hanuman | Quicken is a huge switcher for me |
| 05:31.15 | Bradipo | Seriously, Quicken is his only hangup. |
| 05:31.36 | Hanuman | I'd also like to see more virus apps for linux - even though none have really been written, it doesn't mean some won't be |
| 05:31.40 | Bradipo | He installed Linux and played around with it, then asked, ``How do I install Quicken on it?'' |
| 05:31.58 | Bradipo | Well, what kind of a virus would be effective? |
| 05:32.04 | Bradipo | Hmm, no Outlook. |
| 05:32.24 | Hanuman | yeah - not much can happen, but worms could be written to focus on some of the latest exploits |
| 05:32.27 | sjansen | It would have to stay in data files because most users wouldn't be able to modify binaries or system files. |
| 05:32.40 | Hanuman | Mozilla isn't completely secure either |
| 05:32.41 | Bradipo | There are certainly exploits for Linux, but viruses (in the sense that Windows is affected) probably never will live on Linux. |
| 05:32.55 | Hanuman | sjansen: that is true |
| 05:33.25 | Hanuman | it is much more secure, and a virus app isn't a huge factor for me on Linux - rather paranoid actually, if you ask me |
| 05:33.36 | sjansen | See, now, Mozilla is different thanks to XUL. Wouldn't be too hard to plop in a few trojan extensions. |
| 05:33.42 | Bradipo | I wouldn't ever by such an app. |
| 05:33.48 | Bradipo | I would feel like I was being ripped off. |
| 05:33.54 | Hanuman | but it is still possible for viruses, worms, and exploits to be taken advantage of |
| 05:34.24 | Hanuman | Bradipo: I probably wouldn't either until I saw a virus written for Linux |
| 05:34.40 | Bradipo | But why? |
| 05:34.43 | Bradipo | How would it work? |
| 05:34.56 | sjansen | Sure, but virus scanners are limited in what they can do until the weakness is discovered, and shortly after any weakness is discovered it's patched. |
| 05:34.56 | Bradipo | How would it interact? |
| 05:34.58 | sjansen | Better just to keep your system up to date. |
| 05:35.00 | Bradipo | If Mozilla has an exploit that allows a virus, upgrade Mozilla. |
| 05:35.03 | Bradipo | End of story. |
| 05:35.18 | Bradipo | The problem that Windows faces is their macro integration. |
| 05:35.21 | Hanuman | that's a good point |
| 05:35.23 | Bradipo | And a bunch of other lame features. |
| 05:35.37 | Hanuman | you could do the same for Windows except for the fact that Windows doesn't always fix their problems |
| 05:35.38 | sjansen | But this is more akin to macro viruses, not buffer overflows and family. |
| 05:35.50 | Bradipo | Right. |
| 05:36.07 | Bradipo | And the fact that you can actually execute the viruses. |
| 05:36.21 | *** join/#utah wolfepak (~trillian@dsc03-wei-ut-204-30-104-65.rasserver.net) |
| 05:36.24 | Bradipo | There is no application that I know of in linux that allows you to simply ``execute'' from the Internet. |
| 05:36.26 | Hanuman | Linux is designed a bit differently than Windows (just a bit) |
| 05:36.27 | sjansen | A program has access to .mozilla and can install plugins, etc. for mozilla. Linux Spyware anyone? Yet another reason to not trust closed source. |
| 05:36.44 | Bradipo | Except maybe java and javascript. |
| 05:36.53 | Newsome | Bradipo: have you been able to determine how many hosts are involved in the DoS? |
| 05:36.57 | Bradipo | But that isn't the same as running a binary executable from the command line. |
| 05:37.02 | Bradipo | Not really. |
| 05:37.09 | Bradipo | Again, lack of proper communication with ISPs. |
| 05:37.36 | Newsome | hmm. that stinks. you'd think that they'd want to cooperate on something like that. |
| 05:37.47 | Hanuman | I guess as far as apps are concerned, Quicken is the big one, then, and then other than that, Linux's only flaw is the lack of software to support the hardware that one installs on their computers |
| 05:37.53 | Bradipo | I do have some information with respect to how many peering groups are involved, but I can't divulge that. |
| 05:37.55 | Hanuman | there is such, but not as good of quality as windows |
| 05:38.10 | Hanuman | because the hardware manufacturers don't write their software for Linux |
| 05:38.23 | Newsome | I know that I'm always concerned when someone puts extra junk traffic on _my_ network. |
| 05:38.56 | Bradipo | It could be 1000 56k dialup users. |
| 05:39.06 | Bradipo | It could be more than 2000 56k dialup users. |
| 05:39.07 | Hanuman | ouch! |
| 05:39.13 | Bradipo | It could be a few hundred T1 hosts. |
| 05:39.15 | Bradipo | Not sure. |
| 05:39.24 | Bradipo | But it is enough to saturate our bandwidth and then some. |
| 05:39.25 | Newsome | I know that often, DDoS attacks are controlled through an IRC channel. |
| 05:39.32 | Bradipo | The servers are fine. |
| 05:39.41 | Bradipo | All this talk about how we should be using SYN cookies is lame. |
| 05:39.43 | Hanuman | it's ibot's fault |
| 05:39.47 | Bradipo | Yeah I know. |
| 05:39.57 | Bradipo | If only I knew which IRC network they are on. :-) |
| 05:40.00 | sjansen | If you could find a arone, you might be able to analyse it and cut off the head. |
| 05:40.56 | Hanuman | the story on securityfocus on the apache rootkit used for spam was very interesting in regards to all this |
| 05:41.03 | Bradipo | Newsome: The big problem here is the ISPs. |
| 05:41.10 | Bradipo | Not ours, they have been cooperative. |
| 05:41.13 | Bradipo | But ISPs in general. |
| 05:41.16 | Bradipo | They are all dishonest. |
| 05:41.28 | sjansen | What makes you say that? |
| 05:41.28 | Bradipo | And unwilling to put forth an honest effort in stopping the traffic. |
| 05:41.33 | Newsome | We've had a few (Windows) machines get hacked, and participate in DDoS. I blocked the machine, broke into the channel, figured out all the machines involved, and told the channel operator off! It was fun. |
| 05:41.38 | Bradipo | The DoS has been steady for almost 72 hours now. |
| 05:41.41 | Newsome | that really stinks. |
| 05:41.44 | Bradipo | Isn't that enough time to trace it to the source? |
| 05:41.52 | Newsome | ought to be! |
| 05:41.56 | Bradipo | You would think. |
| 05:42.05 | Bradipo | So, either they are incompetent or they secretly want us down. :-) |
| 05:42.10 | Newsome | I'd just mirror the port involved, and run a decent trace |
| 05:42.24 | Newsome | actually, outwardly we want you down, but not this way :) |
| 05:43.16 | Newsome | there's a lot you can do with a Fluke or a box running tcpdump/iptraf/etc. |
| 05:43.30 | Bradipo | Well, that's the thing. |
| 05:43.34 | Bradipo | The packets are spoofed. |
| 05:43.39 | Newsome | I'm assuming that they're coming through spoofed |
| 05:43.40 | sjansen | I'm not a network geek, but can't they just fake the information? |
| 05:43.42 | Newsome | ha |
| 05:43.55 | Bradipo | So tracing is entirely at the mercy of the ISPs. |
| 05:44.31 | Bradipo | I'm apparently not the only one that has faced these problems though. :-) |
| 05:44.38 | Newsome | when they're spoofed, you can still look at the destination, and check out the incoming ports individually. That's really not too hard. Too bad they won't help, though. |
| 05:44.55 | Bradipo | http://www.usenix.org/events/sec01/invitedtalks/oliver.pdf |
| 05:45.09 | Bradipo | Talks about their experiences with numerous DDoS and what they learned from them. |
| 05:45.11 | Newsome | nope. We've had similar before. Just nobody who really wanted us down :) |
| 05:45.25 | Bradipo | Haha. |
| 05:45.39 | Bradipo | I'll admit, these guys are persistent. |
| 05:45.48 | Newsome | sure seems like it. |
| 05:45.48 | Bradipo | And must not be afraid of being caught to leave it running for so long. |
| 05:47.06 | Newsome | yeah, the problem is that it's so tough to catch someone like this. all someone needs to do is harvest machines until they've got a couple hundred, then set them all loose, and go away. |
| 05:47.18 | Bradipo | Yep. |
| 05:47.22 | Hanuman | You should check among all the posts of people claiming SCO was doing this DoS to themselves - I bet you it's one of them |
| 05:47.36 | Bradipo | Oh, I have been. |
| 05:48.00 | Newsome | unless someone tracks down what's happening, and figures out how to turn them off, they just keep going forever. |
| 05:48.04 | Bradipo | That's the only reason why I am reading any of the groklaw drivel. |
| 05:48.31 | Bradipo | Apparently they must be on networks that have enough bandwidth to spare and are not noticed. |
| 05:48.38 | Hanuman | Well I'm rooting for you - at least deep down I'll know it was a Linux geek that figured out the whole DoS thing at SCO |
| 05:48.56 | Bradipo | Well, I'm not here looking for sympathy or anything, but thanks. |
| 05:49.02 | Bradipo | I don't mind the ideas though. :-) |
| 05:49.13 | Hanuman | wish I had some |
| 05:49.41 | Bradipo | There have been a couple posts that stuck out. |
| 05:49.42 | Newsome | I already checked, and none of the traffic is coming from the CS Department. In a way I wish some was so that I could track it down. |
| 05:49.57 | Hanuman | at SCO? |
| 05:49.59 | Bradipo | They seemed to know more about the situation than the general public. |
| 05:50.04 | Bradipo | On groklaw. |
| 05:50.07 | Hanuman | oh |
| 05:50.39 | *** join/#utah torriem (~torriem@c-67-161-219-205.client.comcast.net) |
| 05:50.46 | Bradipo | I suppose I should get out more and make friends with network admins around the world. :-0 |
| 05:51.19 | Hanuman | I imagine several of the blackhats are looking for places to stay when they visit Utah - you could always offer |
| 05:51.23 | torriem | (Having just arrived, forgive me). Bradipo, how have things been today? |
| 05:51.24 | Hanuman | not many of them really have homes |
| 05:51.37 | Bradipo | torriem: Why do you ask? |
| 05:51.39 | Bradipo | ;-) |
| 05:51.44 | torriem | Yeah |
| 05:52.14 | torriem | I hope they can find the guy who's behind the Dos |
| 05:52.18 | Hanuman | well, time for bed - night night |
| 05:52.33 | sjansen | "Hello, I'm from SCO. I want to be your friend so that when the world turns agains me (again) you'll be willing to help. Want to have lunch?" |
| 05:52.43 | Bradipo | Later Hanuman |
| 05:52.45 | Newsome | If you need me to do any more checking, I have a few contacts. |
| 05:53.23 | sjansen | torriem: Bill Gates is on the of the guys behind dos. Although like many things, he actually bought it from someone else. |
| 05:53.36 | Bradipo | If you don't mind. |
| 05:53.46 | Bradipo | Just checking to see if they are seeing any spoofed packets on their networks. |
| 05:53.56 | Newsome | I can do that. |
| 05:54.47 | Newsome | I saw that you were mentioning that you were one of the two network/system guys. Are you the whole IT department? |
| 05:55.04 | Bradipo | Well we have web guys. |
| 05:55.14 | Bradipo | There is also a manager and a desktop support guy. |
| 05:55.19 | Newsome | you mean guys that can run Front Page? |
| 05:55.27 | Bradipo | No, real web developers. |
| 05:55.33 | Newsome | wow! |
| 05:55.37 | Bradipo | They are the ones who developed our website. |
| 05:55.43 | Bradipo | All PHP gurus. |
| 05:55.49 | torriem | Nice |
| 05:55.53 | torriem | Can I hire one? |
| 05:55.56 | Newsome | php is so cool! |
| 05:55.57 | Bradipo | Pretty good too. |
| 05:55.59 | torriem | (if he's a byu student) |
| 05:56.00 | torriem | :) |
| 05:56.05 | Bradipo | torriem: They do side work if you are serious about it. |
| 05:56.15 | Bradipo | But they aren't BYU students. |
| 05:56.28 | Bradipo | Two of them graduated from UVSC. |
| 05:56.57 | torriem | Bradipo: we just might need one. And he doesn't have to be a student, either. Our current web master is a uvsc student that works 3/4 time. We'll need to replace him soon and I'd really love to have a real web guy |
| 05:57.10 | torriem | But it wouldn't be full time. |
| 05:57.17 | sjansen | Define "real web guy". |
| 05:57.30 | sjansen | I'd be willing to work for you, for the right price. ;-) |
| 05:57.39 | torriem | More than a Dreamweaver jocky |
| 05:57.47 | Bradipo | Haha. |
| 05:58.03 | Bradipo | Yeah, these guys write most of their stuff in java and php. |
| 05:58.04 | torriem | Everything we're doing lately is php, so LAMP experience is definitely what we want. |
| 05:58.07 | torriem | Nice |
| 05:58.15 | Bradipo | I don't know if they have any LAMP experience. |
| 05:58.24 | Bradipo | But they pick up quickly. |
| 05:58.26 | torriem | sjansen: I'll contact you sometime after christmas. |
| 05:58.33 | torriem | Bradipo: No doubt about it. |
| 05:58.56 | Bradipo | Newsome: we have a local support guy at our remote offices. |
| 05:59.01 | sjansen | I even know how to spell XSLT, CSS, XHTML, SQL, DoS, WAI, etc. And I've even used Dreamweaver. |
| 05:59.03 | Newsome | So have you actually seen Secret Service guys then? Dark glasses, and everything? |
| 05:59.10 | Bradipo | But for the most part me and the other guy are the main IT staff. |
| 05:59.14 | Newsome | oh, okay. makes sense. |
| 05:59.28 | torriem | Newsome: so has anything been able to mitigate the attacks? |
| 05:59.29 | Bradipo | We maintain the servers and the networks. |
| 05:59.34 | torriem | I mean bradipo |
| 05:59.37 | Newsome | wow, sounds like lots of work. |
| 05:59.42 | Bradipo | They offer local support (i.e. desktop support, swapping tapes, etc...) |
| 06:00.01 | Bradipo | It's a lot of work, but since we run mostly *nix OSes for the servers it is relatlively reliable. |
| 06:00.21 | Bradipo | We only have one or two Windows servers. |
| 06:00.27 | sjansen | A good sysadmin gets it right once and automates it the fifth time. |
| 06:01.02 | Newsome | we got rid of all our servers that weren't Linux! |
| 06:01.15 | Bradipo | No more HP-UX then eh? |
| 06:01.20 | Bradipo | No more IRIX? |
| 06:01.21 | torriem | I miss Vast |
| 06:01.40 | Bradipo | All RedHat I assume... |
| 06:01.43 | sjansen | Now if they could just get rid of the Windows labs. ;-) |
| 06:01.43 | Newsome | nope! Nothing else. |
| 06:01.57 | Newsome | yeah, we're just using RH. |
| 06:02.00 | torriem | SGI pretty much lost their BYU contracts. I guess tripling the price doesn't work. |
| 06:02.05 | Bradipo | Not Debian?!? |
| 06:02.17 | sjansen | Didn't work too well for IBM either. |
| 06:02.23 | Bradipo | What about the Caedm labs? |
| 06:02.24 | torriem | Yeah |
| 06:02.28 | Newsome | We can't get up-to-date enough packages with Debian. |
| 06:02.33 | torriem | Well, My hero is on pbs. See y'all |
| 06:02.41 | Newsome | not really sure about Caedm. |
| 06:02.41 | sjansen | Who's that? |
| 06:02.54 | Bradipo | Later torriem |
| 06:02.56 | torriem | My Hero? A brilliant sitcom |
| 06:02.59 | torriem | British |
| 06:03.04 | Newsome | later, Michael. |
| 06:03.12 | sjansen | caedm still has HPUX, and I think they're Debian guys |
| 06:03.28 | sjansen | l8r torriem |
| 06:03.32 | Bradipo | We have a vast mix of *nix OSes. |
| 06:03.35 | Newsome | well, they've got a lot more money than we do. more donations. |
| 06:03.52 | Bradipo | OpenServer, UnixWare, Caldera OpenLinux, UnitedLinux, SuSE SLES, etc... |
| 06:03.56 | sjansen | Some of their engineering apps only work on HPUX. |
| 06:03.59 | Bradipo | Debian too. |
| 06:04.06 | Bradipo | But no RedHat. :-) |
| 06:05.42 | Bradipo | My favorite server is our mail server running qmail. |
| 06:06.00 | Bradipo | It's probably the most reliable and most heavily hit server in our company. |
| 06:06.10 | Newsome | haha. probably. |
| 06:06.12 | Bradipo | We get close to 40,000 emails per day. |
| 06:06.13 | sjansen | I love the fact that our mail server is VMS. |
| 06:06.27 | Bradipo | Each one is virus scanned and possibly filtered. |
| 06:07.32 | Bradipo | We could handle a lot more email if we didn't have to virus scan them... |
| 06:07.45 | Newsome | 3 million since July, I guess. |
| 06:07.56 | Bradipo | We do about a gigabyte of email each day. |
| 06:08.09 | Bradipo | Is that all of the Y or just the CS labs? |
| 06:08.15 | Bradipo | CS deptartment... |
| 06:08.18 | Newsome | 377 GB since July |
| 06:08.25 | Newsome | that's the CS Department mail server |
| 06:08.55 | Newsome | it's all those graphics professors emailing each other huge pictures, probably. |
| 06:09.00 | Bradipo | Yeah. |
| 06:09.06 | Bradipo | Do you have messages size limits? |
| 06:09.28 | sjansen | BYU does. Don't know about CS. |
| 06:09.46 | Newsome | no, we ran into too many professors complaining, so I think they're completely off right now. |
| 06:10.32 | sjansen | No one has any business emailing a 50 meg file. Especially if it's leaving campus. |
| 06:10.40 | Newsome | ha. |
| 06:10.57 | Bradipo | So you don't probably do any kind of scanning on those messages eh? |
| 06:11.20 | Bradipo | The only reason why we have messages limits really is because we virus scan and filter them (i.e. for spam). |
| 06:11.36 | Bradipo | That puts significant load on the server when they are large messages. |
| 06:12.00 | Newsome | Dr. Clement tried sending a 550 MB file to his entire research group. You'd think that a professor who claims to teach networking would understand things like that. |
| 06:12.19 | sjansen | Actually, IIRC they run everything through a spam filter and add headers. Users can then use that to filter. |
| 06:12.33 | Newsome | We don't do central virus scanning, but we do run a spam filter on all messages. |
| 06:13.48 | Bradipo | Wow. |
| 06:13.50 | Bradipo | 550MB! |
| 06:14.08 | Bradipo | Hopefully the /var partition was big enough. :-) |
| 06:14.15 | Bradipo | Or wherever your queue is. |
| 06:14.59 | Newsome | yeah. we had about 70 GB free, but it was having a _really_ hard time processing it, so the load went way up, and just about killed the server. |
| 06:15.12 | Newsome | duh. burn a CD, Einstein. |
| 06:15.44 | Bradipo | What MTA are you guys running? |
| 06:16.10 | Bradipo | Dr. Clement was probably just testing your network. ;-) |
| 06:16.18 | Bradipo | Seeing if you had learned anything... |
| 06:16.44 | Newsome | we're running sendmail. |
| 06:17.01 | Bradipo | That's the problem. |
| 06:17.06 | Bradipo | ;-) |
| 06:17.33 | Newsome | yeah. we're running it mostly because it's what I learned when I first started, and I'm too lazy to move everything to something else :) |
| 06:17.39 | sjansen | Problem? Sounds like they're pushing alot more bits than you are. |
| 06:17.47 | Newsome | I'd like to change over to something else. |
| 06:18.03 | Newsome | sendmail has problems once you get so much data going and so many users |
| 06:18.08 | Bradipo | I learned sendmail first too. |
| 06:18.24 | Bradipo | I never really liked it much and thought qmail was heaven sent. :-) |
| 06:19.04 | Bradipo | One thing to consider though are what interfaces your users are used to... |
| 06:19.17 | Bradipo | Do they mostly use IMAP, POP with a GUI client. |
| 06:19.25 | Bradipo | Or do they use mutt and pine... |
| 06:19.27 | Newsome | If I could get a configuration that was nearly identical, and that I could maintain, I'd probably change to something else |
| 06:19.36 | Newsome | most of the professors use gui clients. |
| 06:19.40 | Bradipo | Well, I love replacing sendmail with qmail... |
| 06:19.48 | Bradipo | So if you need a hand there, let me know. |
| 06:20.03 | Newsome | "mail is down" when outhouse^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Houtlook crashes |
| 06:20.13 | Newsome | okay, thanks. |
| 06:20.23 | Bradipo | We have a large number of Outlook users as well. |
| 06:20.36 | Bradipo | Kind of sucks because they are generally the only ones with email problems. |
| 06:20.51 | Newsome | yeah! same here. |
| 06:20.57 | Bradipo | I tend to agree with mutt's motto though. |
| 06:21.09 | Bradipo | ``All email clients suck. Mutt just sucks less.'' |
| 06:21.17 | Bradipo | Or something like that. |
| 06:22.27 | Newsome | haha. yeah. I used to run elm. I've been running pine for probably 8 years now. |
| 06:22.49 | Bradipo | I used to run pine. |
| 06:22.58 | Newsome | I've tried mutt, but it really screws everything up, and I didn't like the interface as much as pine. |
| 06:23.00 | Bradipo | It was great, until I was introduced to exmh. |
| 06:23.12 | Bradipo | Yeah, mutt has a different interface. |
| 06:23.22 | Bradipo | I prefer it over pine, but pine is easier to use. |
| 06:24.27 | Newsome | I try to use text-mode applications to avoid getting pointy hair. :) |
| 06:24.46 | Newsome | brb |
| 06:28.55 | Bradipo | It was a good joke, but I don't read Dilbert at all... |
| 06:32.11 | sjansen | Dilbert doesn't feel as fresh as it used to, but it still hits close to home sometimes. |
| 06:32.41 | torriem | I think it was better when Scott Adams still worked at Packard Bell. |
| 06:32.49 | torriem | (is that the cartoonist?) |
| 06:33.06 | sjansen | Yep. |
| 06:33.39 | torriem | I wonder what kind of cartoons the BYU office culture would create. |
| 06:35.21 | *** part/#utah torriem (~torriem@c-67-161-219-205.client.comcast.net) |
| 06:43.45 | Newsome | any channel with more than 100 in it can't be getting much real stuff done |
| 06:43.54 | sjansen | Probably not hard. sighup already does something like that. |
| 06:44.20 | sjansen | Ah, so you're thinking about find drones. Good idea. :-) |
| 06:44.40 | Newsome | yeah, essentially. |
| 06:45.02 | sjansen | Plus if there's alot of chatter, and it all looks about the same, that should be easy to notice. |
| 06:45.22 | sjansen | Or some type of pattern to the user names. |
| 06:45.54 | Bradipo | I'm back. |
| 06:45.56 | sjansen | Of course, that relies on one of the major IRC networks being used. |
| 06:46.13 | Newsome | yeah, but it seems likely. |
| 06:47.03 | Newsome | in order not to get caught, you can't use a private server. It has to be large enough that a hundred or more connections just sink into the background. |
| 06:50.04 | sjansen | eggdrop is quite popular (although you'll have to use tcl) |
| 06:50.33 | Moeser | ive been using perl with xchat |
| 06:50.48 | sjansen | IRC is pretty simple. It might be faster to just write a simple client yourself. |
| 06:50.48 | Newsome | i've used tcl before |
| 06:54.05 | Bradipo | Newsome: there is a TCL IRC library included with tcllib. |
| 06:54.08 | Bradipo | It's very decent. |
| 06:54.16 | Bradipo | I've used it to write a few bots myself. |
| 06:55.03 | Newsome | hmm. sounds interesting. I'll see how hard it would be to go searching |
| 06:57.56 | Bradipo | tcllib.sf.net I believe. |
| 06:58.17 | Bradipo | If you know Tcl at all, it is very easy to use. |
| 06:58.50 | Newsome | last I used tcl, it was in CS560 for ns, but it should come back |
| 06:59.16 | Newsome | 'apt-get install tcllib' works! |
| 06:59.54 | Bradipo | Tcl is one of my favorite scripting languages. |
| 07:00.26 | Newsome | I've been using PHP for most everything recently, but most have nice specialties! |
| 07:00.52 | Bradipo | Well, if I did serious web programming I would definitely use PHP. |
| 07:01.14 | Bradipo | Tcl seems to be the preferred language for IRC. |
| 07:01.24 | Bradipo | I'm not really sure why. |
| 07:01.39 | Bradipo | All of the eggdrop bots are written with Tcl. |
| 07:01.58 | Bradipo | Well, most anyway. |
| 07:02.05 | Bradipo | All is pretty broad. |
| 07:02.08 | Newsome | yeah. |
| 07:02.37 | sjansen | Probably becuase eggrop is so old and Tcl was one of the best at the time. |
| 07:03.11 | Newsome | night sjansen |
| 07:13.36 | *** join/#utah Jayce^ (~Jayce^@65.218.37.130) |
| 07:16.12 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 07:21.35 | Bradipo | op alert |
| 07:25.17 | Jayce^ | heh |
| 07:40.07 | *** join/#utah FindBot (~FindBot@asterix.cs.byu.edu) |
| 07:40.24 | Newsome | wow, it worked. |
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| 07:56.25 | *** part/#utah wolfepak (~trillian@dsc03-wei-ut-204-30-104-65.rasserver.net) |
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| 08:23.37 | *** part/#utah Newsome (~sorenson@sorenson.dsl.csolutions.net) |
| 12:54.04 | emcnabb | they captured Saddam! |
| 14:03.32 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@byu176783wks.rn.byu.edu) |
| 14:17.38 | Hanuman | I think BradIPO did it |
| 14:17.57 | Hanuman | in looking for the DoS'ers he found Saddam |
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| 18:35.22 | Bradipo | Anyone up for gnocatan? :-) |
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| 19:55.20 | sjansen | I'm sure everyone has heard by now, but it looks like they caught Saddam alive. |
| 20:00.43 | Newsome | amazing, huh. |
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| 20:14.17 | emcnabb | slashdot is having a heyday |
| 20:21.41 | torriem | On which topic in particular? |
| 20:21.43 | sjansen | How so? |
| 20:22.27 | torriem | Personally I think most of the slashdot posters under the saddam hussein story are complete and utter morons. Wo unto them that call good evil and evil good. |
| 20:22.34 | torriem | (the nay sayers) |
| 20:23.23 | torriem | Personally I find the whole idea of a war being legal or illegal very amusing. |
| 20:26.52 | sjansen | I was just saying the same thing to my roommates. |
| 20:27.05 | torriem | yeah. |
| 20:27.08 | torriem | well nap time |
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| 20:32.49 | emcnabb | sjansen, I was talking about the Saddam article |
| 21:13.40 | Jayce^ | it really is \. :) |
| 21:13.43 | Jayce^ | left leaning :) |
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