| 00:03.42 | Newsome | Andy: What do you do there at SCO? Are there a lot of technical people still working at SCO? |
| 00:04.15 | Newsome | hmm. Guess he's out fighting fires, or something. |
| 00:05.59 | bartw | nah. most of us left months ago. |
| 00:06.42 | Jayce^ | bartw, you worked there? |
| 00:06.58 | bartw | 5+ years. |
| 00:08.24 | Newsome | wow. how long ago did you leave? |
| 00:08.30 | bartw | I think it's just andy and the other IT boys (who are very skilled) and the lawyers now. |
| 00:08.49 | Newsome | Andy and I were roommates way back when... |
| 00:08.52 | bartw | Sept. 2002. |
| 00:09.10 | Jayce^ | leave, or pushed out? |
| 00:12.29 | bartw | So, I'm still hirable :) http://damagestudios.com/jobs.php |
| 00:12.34 | bartw | left. |
| 00:13.11 | bartw | yep. Andy's a good egg. |
| 00:13.47 | Newsome | Yeah. He was a decent roommate. I just hope he doesn't get rotten by proximity to Darl :) |
| 00:19.49 | Bradipo | Frank, that you? |
| 00:20.37 | Newsome | yep! |
| 00:20.53 | Bradipo | It's been a while (aside from email interaction)... |
| 00:21.19 | Newsome | true. I see you're still around too. I haven't made it too far :) |
| 00:21.43 | Bradipo | I wouldn't mind working at BYU though. |
| 00:22.00 | Bradipo | But after working here I may not be able to pass the Honor Code. :-) |
| 00:22.19 | Bradipo | Besides, didn't you guys see that article that said not to hire ex-SCO employees? |
| 00:22.24 | Newsome | hehe. |
| 00:22.36 | Jayce^ | lol |
| 00:22.46 | Bradipo | Just kidding about the Honor Code by the way... |
| 00:22.54 | Newsome | well, we've seen it, but I haven't had any ex-SCO employees come ask me for a job. |
| 00:23.06 | Newsome | Otherwise, I might have had to deny them. |
| 00:23.16 | Bradipo | Hehe. |
| 00:23.46 | Newsome | Tell me that working for SCO is "just a job"... |
| 00:24.12 | Bradipo | I've been here almost as long as bartw had. |
| 00:24.16 | Newsome | and that you don't actually drink the Kool-Aid too. |
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| 00:24.36 | Bradipo | I think I started just after he did. |
| 00:24.47 | Bradipo | Give or take a few months. |
| 00:25.43 | Newsome | well, I guess it's time to head home. later, all! |
| 00:26.13 | Bradipo | Hmm, later. |
| 00:33.53 | Bradipo | I would like to think I'm the same old person I always was (maybe a little more eccentric in my old age). |
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| 00:49.11 | bonez39 | synic: do you print much from linux? I am getting a sheet with every print job that lists out stuff about the print job...I don't want the sheet to print... |
| 00:49.20 | bonez39 | any ideas on how to turn the sheet off? |
| 00:49.33 | synic | hrmm... I don't even own a printer |
| 00:49.49 | synic | I've gotten it to work with CUPS, but I never had the extra sheet |
| 00:52.22 | Jayce^ | bonez39, is that a header/banner maybe? |
| 00:52.37 | Jayce^ | check out the kde control center, it's cups config tools are really good |
| 00:52.43 | Jayce^ | might find the option in there |
| 00:56.34 | Bradipo | Sounds like a banner. |
| 00:56.51 | Bradipo | I don't like cups so I haven't yet familiarized myself with it enough to know how to turn it off. :-) |
| 00:57.05 | emcnabb | so SCO got DOS'ed again |
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| 01:00.16 | bonez39 | Jayce^: yeah, I think that's it....a header banner.. |
| 01:00.17 | bonez39 | Jayce^: how does one switch that OFF? |
| 01:01.38 | Jayce^ | dunno, that control center should make it easy though |
| 01:04.07 | Bradipo | emcnabb: I don't know, according to most websites I read SCO just pulled the plug on their webserver. :-) |
| 01:04.21 | Bradipo | And SCO has an incompetent network administrator. |
| 01:04.33 | Bradipo | Or has fired all their technical staff and is now run solely by lawyers. |
| 01:05.12 | Jayce^ | pretty much :) |
| 01:06.17 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, we figured you just switched it to openserver :) |
| 01:06.57 | Bradipo | Well, I would like to. |
| 01:07.06 | Bradipo | Just so we can stop getting razzed about running linux all the time. :-) |
| 01:12.45 | Bradipo | Actually, ViaWest is hosting our website for us. |
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| 01:20.14 | bartw | Did ViaWest pay their linux tax??? |
| 01:21.37 | Bradipo | Good question. |
| 01:23.08 | Newsome | night, Andy. |
| 01:23.20 | Bradipo | Later, probably be back on later too. :-) |
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| 03:57.15 | hans | bonez39: you must have turned something on to get that. very odd. banner pages are off by default |
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| 06:04.35 | jakea | I was asking this two days ago right when Xmission has it's DSL glitch, so I don't know if someone found a place, but every place I try to track down to get the SSS 1.5 version is now dead, does anyone know were I can DL it from? |
| 06:06.03 | spr5 | jakea: the uug's server got a hard drive upgrade, I think it should be back on the site. If not emcnabb should have an idea as to where. |
| 06:06.26 | spr5 | jakea: or if you're at BYU i can burn a copy and bring it to campus tomorrow |
| 06:27.58 | brailsmt | walk by the sysadmins office in the TMCB they can give you one :) |
| 06:28.28 | spr5 | they'll have to burn a fresh one, i took the last of evan's stack two days ago :) |
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| 14:17.20 | Hanuman | Doesn't a Windows OEM license get attached to the MB it came with? If so, then why are places like TigerDirect, etc able to sell OEM versions w/o the Mobo? |
| 14:19.38 | Hanuman | and what is a "non-peripheral hardware component"? |
| 14:40.58 | Hanuman | You know, I think I'm going to study law just so I can understand all these stupid licensing legalities |
| 14:41.38 | Hanuman | I'm also trying to decide whether I want to license some software I wrote under the GPL out to a client, and need to research the legalities of what he can do with that |
| 14:43.11 | jp78 | did you write the software as a "work for hire"? or did you write the software and then sell it to the client? |
| 14:53.34 | Hanuman | write now it is "work for hire" but the software I have previously written under the GPL wasn't written as work for hire and I'm debating whether to either sell it to the client or work in a clause that allows me to continue using that software for other purposes as well |
| 14:53.41 | Hanuman | s/^write/right/ |
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| 15:56.36 | jsmith | OK, so who lauched the DDOS on SCO?\ |
| 15:59.31 | hans | jsmith: ibot |
| 16:00.11 | hans | most tech-savvy reports I see say SCO faked it or was incompetent. (see groklaw) |
| 16:07.37 | jsmith | I know there was some discussion in here yesterday evening, but I didn't really catch it |
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| 16:14.36 | Hanuman | jsmith: SCOBot did |
| 16:14.48 | Hanuman | SCOBot and ibot conspired together |
| 16:15.00 | Hanuman | SCOBot is a double agent |
| 16:16.36 | jp78 | Hanuman, I have done that before (adjusted the client contract to permit me to let them use software I have written previously, without giving them ownership of it)... you have to be very careful with contracts... make sure you read them and keep in mind that everything is negotiable |
| 16:17.29 | Hanuman | yeah - I think to be safe I'm just going to rewrite it fresh |
| 16:18.23 | Hanuman | It would be nice if he'd let me continue on my project written under the GPL, let him use it, but still improve my project to improve it |
| 16:18.37 | Hanuman | that was a little redundant |
| 16:18.42 | Hanuman | but you get the poitn |
| 16:18.48 | Hanuman | s/poitn/point/ |
| 16:18.53 | jsmith | Hanuman: If it's worth writing, it's worth re-writing... |
| 16:19.18 | Hanuman | yeah. better safe than sorry |
| 16:20.01 | Hanuman | I'd love to use this as an opportunity to improve some of the automation tasks of my familyCMS program, though |
| 16:26.04 | hans | Hanuman: then write it again into your familyCMS program. the first one is almost always a better fit for the trash can anyway. (or, conversely, the second one is usually better and faster to code than the first) |
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| 16:29.03 | hans | 5 days and a few hours |
| 16:30.06 | hans | Monday night through Wednesday. Mostly clear. Highs in the mid 30s to lower 40s. Lows near 20. |
| 16:31.32 | jsmith | Cold night for being outdoors?!? |
| 16:33.54 | hans | at least it looks like it won't be like caradhras |
| 16:34.05 | jsmith | Right... |
| 16:34.08 | hans | we have yet to figure out when we have to show up to get good seats, to my knowledge. |
| 16:34.21 | hans | hopefully it doesn't include winter concrete camping. :) |
| 16:34.30 | hans | but I bet it includes some outdoor waiting |
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| 16:48.08 | neybar_work | jordan commons is opening the theater at 9:00am |
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| 16:48.44 | jsmith | neybar_work: What, you're not going to the 12:01am performance? |
| 16:49.08 | neybar_work | no, I'm going to the 10:00PM showing on the 16th |
| 16:49.15 | hans | jsmith: you're new here, aren't you? ;-) |
| 16:49.20 | jsmith | Yup... |
| 16:49.25 | jsmith | How'd you guess? |
| 16:49.28 | neybar_work | or what ever time it is starting |
| 16:50.25 | hans | myself, neybar, Jayce^, sjansen, tyce, and some other real-life people are all going to the 'trilogy tuesday' |
| 16:50.35 | hans | fellowship starts at 1:30, according to the tickets |
| 16:50.46 | neybar_work | yup |
| 16:50.46 | jsmith | Aha... I see... |
| 16:51.08 | hans | 9 to 1:30 is only 4.5 hours. Not so bad |
| 16:51.21 | hans | neybar_work: any word on other policies, like place-holding |
| 16:51.24 | neybar_work | but how soon are we going to line up for the 9:00 opening? |
| 16:51.37 | hans | oh, they're letting people go into the theater itself at 9? |
| 16:51.39 | jsmith | Somebody scouted for wireless internet access yet? |
| 16:51.47 | neybar_work | hans yes |
| 16:52.22 | hans | the secret here is knowing your competitors and defining your needs |
| 16:52.34 | neybar_work | I haven't heard anything about place-holding |
| 16:52.41 | neybar_work | also there is wireless network available this time |
| 16:52.47 | jsmith | Really... open? |
| 16:52.52 | neybar_work | I've been told that it is free access |
| 16:52.57 | jsmith | Get out! |
| 16:53.02 | jsmith | That's awesome... |
| 16:53.21 | hans | neybar_work: maybe we can see if the theater has/will create a policy about place-holding |
| 16:53.36 | neybar_work | actually Jordan Commons just wired it up, I don't know if it is a permanent thing or not though |
| 16:54.02 | jsmith | Cool... I may have to try to sneak out of work... |
| 16:54.17 | hans | jsmith: ah, but you'd need tickets for that |
| 16:54.47 | jsmith | Yes, I would |
| 16:54.49 | hans | if we can just figure out when that group in front of us is going to get in line, that would be a good indicator |
| 16:54.54 | neybar_work | I haven't figured out power for the show itself though... my laptop lasts 1.5 hour in a gui |
| 16:55.00 | neybar_work | heh |
| 16:55.17 | HarleyPig | jsmith: The tickets have been sold out for a month. |
| 16:55.43 | hans | if even 1/4 of the people that got tickets are showing up at 9:00am or later it will be easy to get an ok seat |
| 16:55.50 | hans | if you want a _good_ seat that might be another story |
| 16:56.10 | neybar_work | I justdon't want to be in the front |
| 16:56.36 | hans | amen to that. I did one showing of fellowship on the front row in a dollar theater. just about made me sick. :) |
| 16:58.04 | HarleyPig | :) |
| 16:58.04 | neybar_work | I saw a showing of TTT in the second row, I also was feeling very sick |
| 16:58.14 | hans | i bet a bunch of the line junkies will be listening to that radio station monday. maybe laura will give a good indicator as to when to go |
| 16:58.36 | neybar_work | I just called Jordan Commons again |
| 16:58.47 | neybar_work | doors will open at 9:00am |
| 16:59.12 | neybar_work | if you are on the jordan grounds before 8:30 you will be asked to leave by the security guards |
| 16:59.17 | neybar_work | wirless access is free |
| 16:59.19 | hans | sweet |
| 16:59.24 | hans | so 8:30 it is |
| 16:59.25 | neybar_work | there are no power accomodation |
| 16:59.29 | neybar_work | s |
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| 16:59.47 | hans | where's mr fusion when you need him/ |
| 17:01.38 | hans | neybar_work: did they say anything about allowing/prohibiting place-saving? |
| 17:02.20 | hans | jsmith: if you'd been here back then... we organized the line-standing and stood in shifts. The line lasted about two days. |
| 17:02.31 | neybar_work | I forgot to ask, but since you are going into the theater at 9 I imagine you can stake a claim in your seat |
| 17:02.55 | hans | your own seat, no doubt. wondering about other seats though |
| 17:03.01 | neybar_work | not sure |
| 17:03.21 | neybar_work | 801-304-4500 option 5 |
| 17:04.28 | hans | aw come on, that's long distance for me. ;-) |
| 17:04.51 | hans | don't feel obligated to call again |
| 17:05.15 | hans | I'm assuming small-scale saving will take place |
| 17:05.27 | hans | but I won't plan on doing it. that should cover the bases |
| 17:06.09 | neybar_work | heh |
| 17:06.41 | neybar_work | quick deb Q for you: I am trying to install bind get this error: Starting domain name service: namedld.so: Incorrectly built binary which accesses errno or h_errno directly. |
| 17:06.41 | neybar_work | ld.so |
| 17:06.45 | hans | or rather, if needed I might plan on doing it but not on actually being able to do it |
| 17:07.15 | hans | woah, that's strange |
| 17:08.11 | neybar_work | I started with deb mini cd, upgraded to a few testing packages, got that error, and decided to do a dist-upgrade to testing and I am still getting that |
| 17:08.32 | hans | what version of bind? |
| 17:09.03 | neybar_work | 8.4.1.0-2 |
| 17:10.05 | hans | hmm. i'm running bind9 so i'm no comparison |
| 17:10.15 | neybar_work | is that in unstable? |
| 17:10.20 | hans | you could apt-get bind9 if you have no issues with bind9 |
| 17:10.36 | hans | should be in testing |
| 17:11.54 | neybar_work | bind9 worked like a charm |
| 17:20.03 | hans | i propose we all show up at 8:30 and get our seats, try to save seats for members of our party that can't be there at 8:30 but give no guarantees about being able to |
| 17:20.36 | neybar_work | sounds good to me |
| 17:21.28 | hans | I'll throw up the wiki |
| 17:21.48 | neybar_work | If we can manage it I propose that we take like the first four seats in three rows, or something like that |
| 17:23.48 | Jayce^ | sleep in the parking lot :) |
| 17:24.23 | hans | Jayce^: enjoy. :) |
| 17:24.38 | hans | we ought to carpool though |
| 17:27.26 | Jayce^ | yeah |
| 17:27.34 | Jayce^ | and have some good breakfast going on there |
| 17:27.56 | hans | i think if we call laura she can arrange that |
| 17:28.38 | Jayce^ | good idea.. |
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| 17:33.15 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@byu079516wks.byu.edu) |
| 17:34.50 | *** topic/#utah by sjansen -> http://plug.org http://sllug.org http://uug.byu.edu http://fslc.usu.edu http://www.ldsoss.org - ask ibot for the news (/msg ibot news) |
| 17:38.32 | Jayce^ | oh sure, just because it's over now |
| 17:38.48 | Jayce^ | everybody getting SpamAssassin setup now? |
| 17:41.28 | emcnabb | it was set up before, but now it's trained |
| 17:41.34 | hans | http://falcon.fugal.net:8180/JSPWiki/Wiki.jsp?page=TrilogyTuesday |
| 17:41.35 | emcnabb | it's doing a much better job |
| 17:41.47 | hans | s/falcon.fugal.net/10.7.96.98/ if you're on byu's network |
| 17:43.32 | sjansen | Vas is das? |
| 17:45.04 | Newsome | Was ist das |
| 17:45.15 | Jayce^ | I just got our friends group to use the page too, so we have a bigger group.. |
| 17:46.02 | hans | Jayce^: our friends? |
| 17:46.05 | hans | we have friends? |
| 17:46.20 | Jayce^ | yeah, the ones we were playing games with in line |
| 17:46.23 | HarleyPig | I HATE PHP!!! |
| 17:46.33 | hans | was the the group in front of us, or what? |
| 17:46.47 | hans | speaking of which, I definitely plan on bringing settlers |
| 17:47.20 | Jayce^ | you bought it? or already had it? |
| 17:47.31 | hans | we (brothers and I) broke down and bought it |
| 17:47.37 | Jayce^ | cool |
| 17:47.42 | jsmith | HarleyPig: What now... |
| 17:47.55 | neybar_work | yeah... 9 to 1:30 could be a looong time |
| 17:48.03 | hans | methinks HarleyPig has pent up repressive anger |
| 17:48.06 | HarleyPig | ? Are you a php fan jsmith? |
| 17:48.18 | jsmith | HarleyPig: Uh, yeah... I used to be a professional PHP developer |
| 17:48.18 | hans | neybar_work: not as long as the two days we already waited in line. :) |
| 17:48.24 | HarleyPig | hans: I'm gonna go on a shooting spree ... CounterStrike! |
| 17:48.25 | neybar_work | true |
| 17:49.02 | HarleyPig | jsmith: Ah. Everytime I have to modify a PHP app some idiot has intertwined the presentation with the code so tightly that I always screw something up. |
| 17:49.10 | HarleyPig | Usually doesn't show up til it goes live. |
| 17:49.59 | HarleyPig | As long as I've got your ear, what's wrong with this? if ( isset( $_GET['update'] || isset( $_POST['update'] ) ) { // do update stuff }? |
| 17:50.16 | HarleyPig | It doesn't error out, it doesn't do anything. |
| 17:50.25 | HarleyPig | I put a print statement in, and nothing gets printed. |
| 17:50.44 | jsmith | HarleyPig: isset can sometimes cause problems... I usually use !empty() |
| 17:51.17 | jsmith | HarleyPig: Also, make sure you're using a new-enough version of PHP to use $_GET instead of $HTTP_GET_VARS |
| 17:51.39 | HarleyPig | No difference. |
| 17:51.41 | HarleyPig | Oh. Hmmm. |
| 17:51.59 | jsmith | Yes? |
| 17:52.02 | HarleyPig | I'll try that. ! empty( $HTTP_GET_VARS['update'] )? |
| 17:52.33 | HarleyPig | or does post have it's own set too? |
| 17:54.19 | HarleyPig | Ok ... that worked. Thanks. I don't really hate php ... I just don't agree with the world view. Content and code shouldn't be so intertwined. |
| 17:54.23 | jsmith | Yes, it has it's own set... |
| 17:54.26 | HarleyPig | IMNSHO. |
| 17:54.28 | Jayce^ | HarleyPig, AMEN |
| 17:54.30 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 17:54.31 | jsmith | Amen! |
| 17:54.39 | jsmith | We had this discussion yesterday as I recall... |
| 17:54.44 | HarleyPig | I missed it. |
| 17:54.48 | Jayce^ | we have it a lot |
| 17:54.52 | HarleyPig | :D |
| 17:54.56 | jsmith | HarleyPig: Here's a segment of code that comes in handy from time to time... |
| 17:54.58 | jsmith | if (is_array($HTTP_POST_VARS)) |
| 17:54.58 | jsmith | { |
| 17:54.58 | jsmith | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:54.58 | jsmith | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:54.58 | jsmith | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:54.59 | jsmith | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:55.01 | jsmith | } |
| 17:55.03 | jsmith | if(is_array($HTTP_GET_VARS)) |
| 17:55.05 | jsmith | { |
| 17:55.07 | jsmith | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:55.11 | jsmith | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:55.13 | jsmith | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:55.15 | jsmith | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:55.17 | jsmith | } |
| 17:56.00 | HarleyPig | Thnaks. I'll put that in the utility lib. |
| 17:56.13 | HarleyPig | Business rules should be in the database, not the code. |
| 17:56.46 | synic | header( "Content-type: text/plain" ); |
| 17:56.53 | synic | print_r( $HTTP_POST_VARS ); |
| 17:57.33 | HarleyPig | There're always work-arounds, just like in PHP. :> |
| 17:58.12 | jsmith | synic: Yeah, that works too... unfortunately, I've never liked the layout that print_r gives you. |
| 17:58.16 | Jayce^ | a few updates to the wiki already |
| 17:58.56 | synic | I really like it... kinda gives you a hierarchy |
| 17:59.27 | HarleyPig | Does PHP have a last for an if block? |
| 17:59.38 | synic | yeah |
| 17:59.59 | HarleyPig | thnx |
| 18:02.02 | jsmith | synic: Yeah, it does... but it's not great... At another company I worked for, they wrote a function that basically did the same as print_r, only they made the formatting better, and automatically wrapped <PRE> tags around the output |
| 18:02.37 | synic | yeah, it would be nice if they had one that automatically did the pre - or if there was one that you could assign the output to a variable without using ob |
| 18:02.38 | HarleyPig | Why not just take the output and filter it through a regex? |
| 18:03.10 | HarleyPig | Or am I thinking to perlish here? |
| 18:03.27 | Hanuman | Are we having another Perl/PHP flame during my lunch hour? |
| 18:03.28 | Jayce^ | why not use Data::Dumper :) |
| 18:03.39 | synic | HarleyPig: that would work... but oh the effort. |
| 18:03.42 | hans | ~hell hanuman's lunch |
| 18:03.52 | | ACTION stabs hanuman's lunch with a pitchfork and dips him in flames |
| 18:03.56 | hans | there, nice and toasty :) |
| 18:04.01 | Jayce^ | lol |
| 18:04.06 | Hanuman | mmm...toasty pad thai |
| 18:04.08 | HarleyPig | Hanuman: I hope not ... I'm having to learn PHP so I might as well try to pick up the world view a little (as long as it doesn't pollute my pure perl outlook). |
| 18:04.57 | HarleyPig | synic: regex's are that much of a pain in PHP. |
| 18:05.01 | Hanuman | zope scares me |
| 18:05.07 | synic | HarleyPig: not at all... |
| 18:05.12 | HarleyPig | That was python. |
| 18:05.16 | synic | but... it's easier to print "<pre> |
| 18:05.20 | synic | and then print_r |
| 18:05.23 | emcnabb | can't we all just get along |
| 18:05.29 | Hanuman | Yeah - I took one look at it once and ran away really quick |
| 18:05.32 | emcnabb | (and use php) |
| 18:05.35 | emcnabb | :-) |
| 18:06.02 | synic | I can't really say I like either one more. I like and dislike things about both. |
| 18:06.11 | emcnabb | Jayce^, I put the bumper sticker on my car |
| 18:06.48 | Hanuman | The client I'm working with wants to use my FamilyCMS software for a for-profit project he's working on |
| 18:06.53 | sjansen | Business rules belong in EJBs. |
| 18:06.56 | Hanuman | I never thought of a business twist towards it |
| 18:07.02 | Jayce^ | emcnabb, sweet |
| 18:07.04 | Hanuman | Now I have to write up a business plan |
| 18:07.12 | sjansen | Perl encourages sloppy, hacked together, unmaintainable code. |
| 18:07.22 | Jayce^ | sjansen, middleware/ejb.. same thing :) |
| 18:07.27 | synic | lol... and then sjansen elevates the flamewar |
| 18:07.28 | jsmith | Hanuman: You hiring? |
| 18:07.32 | Jayce^ | sjansen, you mean java does :) |
| 18:07.48 | Hanuman | jsmith: not yet - need to figure out how I can make a profit off of GPL'd software first |
| 18:07.56 | Hanuman | and succeed with it |
| 18:08.01 | jsmith | I think programming in general promotes sloppy, hacked together, unmaintainable code. |
| 18:08.12 | hans | argghghghgah someone else is registering their computer as falcon.rn.byu.edu |
| 18:08.15 | hans | blast them |
| 18:08.16 | jsmith | Hanuman: I've made tons of money off of GPL code... |
| 18:08.34 | Hanuman | It would help in the improvement of the code, though and would give myfamily.com a run for their money |
| 18:08.44 | Jayce^ | one driver from provo for the early group now.. |
| 18:08.45 | jsmith | Hanuman: You just convince your clients that if it's GPL, they get a better return on their investment... |
| 18:09.01 | HarleyPig | sjansen: PHP encourages that too. :P |
| 18:09.07 | jsmith | Hanuman: I'd help, but it's probably written in perl. |
| 18:09.17 | emcnabb | #utah sure is active this morning |
| 18:09.18 | Hanuman | jsmith: yeah - I don't think I'd have any problem getting clients. I think it's figuring out what I want to charge for that will be the hardest part. |
| 18:09.19 | jsmith | HarleyPig: Yes, it's easy to write sloppy ugly PHP code... no doubt! |
| 18:09.30 | Hanuman | jsmith: you're correct on that - mod_perl even |
| 18:09.46 | Jayce^ | emcnabb, one flamewar, and one discussion on prepping for ROTK.. |
| 18:09.52 | synic | it's easy to make an ugly jam sandwitch... |
| 18:09.53 | Jayce^ | mmmmm, mod_perl |
| 18:10.06 | Hanuman | This guy want's to write a site for the descendants of Pocohantas which is exactly what my code will allow him to do |
| 18:10.11 | HarleyPig | You got a comma mixed in there. Or is that slobber? |
| 18:10.15 | emcnabb | Jayce^, ah, ok |
| 18:10.28 | emcnabb | let me start one more |
| 18:10.33 | emcnabb | GENTOO4EVER!!!! |
| 18:10.37 | Hanuman | mmm...ROTK |
| 18:10.47 | HarleyPig | SMGL SMGL SMGL |
| 18:10.48 | Hanuman | Red Hat |
| 18:10.56 | hans | LFS |
| 18:11.02 | emcnabb | GEN2! GEN2! |
| 18:11.08 | Hanuman | ext2 |
| 18:11.12 | HarleyPig | Touchdown! |
| 18:11.13 | hans | GNU/Hurd |
| 18:11.18 | HarleyPig | Oh, wait. |
| 18:11.20 | Hanuman | Mooo |
| 18:11.24 | Jayce^ | reiser |
| 18:11.32 | HarleyPig | Now we're just getting silly. |
| 18:11.35 | Jayce^ | SCO! |
| 18:11.37 | HarleyPig | Go team! |
| 18:11.44 | emcnabb | ~lart Jayce^ |
| 18:11.49 | emcnabb | ouch |
| 18:11.51 | Hanuman | Caldera! |
| 18:11.56 | tensai | ~lart flamers |
| 18:11.57 | emcnabb | Hanuman, never! |
| 18:11.57 | HarleyPig | ~lart everyone. |
| 18:12.09 | emcnabb | ~whaleslap Jayce^ |
| 18:12.15 | | ACTION slaps Jayce^ upside and over the head with one freakishly huge killer whale named hugh |
| 18:12.15 | Hanuman | no! not my mojo! |
| 18:12.18 | hans | oic, ibot owns the mojo |
| 18:12.32 | HarleyPig | ibot, who owns the mojo? |
| 18:12.33 | | bugger all, i dunno, HarleyPig |
| 18:12.37 | emcnabb | ok, back to school work |
| 18:12.43 | HarleyPig | I don't want to bugger everyone, thanks. |
| 18:12.51 | jsmith | Hanuman: I'm a descendant of Pocohantas... |
| 18:12.59 | HarleyPig | Buggery on the high seas! |
| 18:13.02 | emcnabb | classes do end today :-) but I still have projects due :-( |
| 18:13.05 | Hanuman | jsmith: cool - if he ends up doing this I'll let you know |
| 18:13.17 | Hanuman | or you could just use my code to write your own site |
| 18:13.20 | HarleyPig | I need to find some cheech and chong now. |
| 18:13.24 | jsmith | Hanuman: Actually, it's my wife... |
| 18:13.44 | Hanuman | ahh...7 years is the big anniversary from what I hear |
| 18:13.46 | jsmith | Hanuman: Again, I probably would... but it's written in mod_perl... |
| 18:13.49 | Hanuman | of Jamestown |
| 18:13.58 | Hanuman | jsmith: you could pay me to set it up for you |
| 18:14.16 | jsmith | Hanuman: Yeah... I told you about my wife's ancestors being some of the first people in Jamestown... |
| 18:14.16 | Hanuman | or you could learn mod_perl |
| 18:14.23 | Hanuman | jsmith: I remember that |
| 18:14.28 | jsmith | Hanuman: Just because I don't like it doesn't mean I don't know it :-) |
| 18:14.33 | Hanuman | so Pocohantas eh |
| 18:14.43 | HarleyPig | jsmith: Is there a way I can make the results of a query their own variables? I seem to remember seeing this somewhere. So instead of having to do <? print $result['variable'] ?> I can just do <? $variable ?> ? |
| 18:14.50 | jsmith | Apparently so... I don't they've proven it yet... but that's the story... |
| 18:15.17 | emcnabb | ~slashdot |
| 18:15.19 | jsmith | HarleyPig: Yeah... how dangerous do you want to be? |
| 18:15.44 | Hanuman | jsmith: yeah - I was going to say some think Pocohantas is a legend |
| 18:15.44 | jsmith | HarleyPig: foreach($result as $variable) $$variable = $variable; |
| 18:16.05 | HarleyPig | ? If I'm pulling the data from my own database, how dangerous is that? And I'm not maintaining this later, the designers are and they want as little interference as possible. |
| 18:16.56 | jsmith | HarleyPig: Let's say your in a loop and you're using $i as your loop control variable... now let's say your database has a column called "i"... The value from the database overwrites your $i, and causes grief |
| 18:16.59 | hans | laura in line was from 102.7, right? |
| 18:17.00 | HarleyPig | Wow. Ok ... cold you explain that to me? (Obviously, I could just plut it in, but I'd like to know how it works). |
| 18:17.26 | Jayce^ | HarleyPig, like a bind variable in perl? |
| 18:17.43 | HarleyPig | Jayce^: Yeah. |
| 18:17.49 | Jayce^ | hans, yeah |
| 18:17.53 | jsmith | HarleyPig: Sure... it's called "variable variables"... if $foo = "house", $$foo makes $house... |
| 18:18.07 | Hanuman | so, who is devilkin on /.? |
| 18:18.36 | Jayce^ | dunno |
| 18:18.47 | Hanuman | Groklaw's getting /.'ed |
| 18:18.55 | HarleyPig | Oh ... I see ... the lack of {}'s threw me. The equiv in perl would be $$variable = $variable for @{$result} or something, right? |
| 18:19.01 | Hanuman | or DOS'ed |
| 18:19.07 | Hanuman | that would be funny |
| 18:19.27 | Hanuman | I wonder who would have DOS'd groklaw??? |
| 18:20.01 | Hanuman | or maybe it's a conspiracy that groklaw is staging a DOS on themselves to blame SCO.... |
| 18:20.09 | Jayce^ | HarleyPig, course it doesnt' have to have the {} :) just a little easier to read IMHO |
| 18:20.43 | HarleyPig | jsmith: How dangerous would it be to do foreach ( mysql_fetch_assoc($qry_result) as $variable ) $$variable = $variable ? |
| 18:20.50 | HarleyPig | Or is it possible? |
| 18:21.10 | jsmith | Sure... just make sure you're database variables don't conflict with other globals you are using... |
| 18:21.11 | hans | who is this dr. evil that's mucking up our wiki? |
| 18:21.30 | HarleyPig | jsmith: Always. Even when not doing magic. |
| 18:22.26 | jsmith | HarleyPig: I always use the $dbRow['name'] syntax, just to make it clear I got the data from the database... but that's just my style... |
| 18:22.44 | Jayce^ | hans.. a friend.. I'll have him clean it up |
| 18:23.27 | hans | :) |
| 18:25.24 | HarleyPig | jsmith: Yeah ... I like that too. |
| 18:25.29 | Bradipo | You folks know the truth, unless you don't believe me. |
| 18:25.41 | Bradipo | Do you all think it's a fake? |
| 18:25.53 | hans | Bradipo: can you sum it up, from your perspective? |
| 18:26.04 | Bradipo | I'm thinking that the world has a lot of self-proclaimed experts that know nothing. |
| 18:26.13 | hans | Bradipo: I already knew that. :) |
| 18:26.18 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, and this is a new revelation? |
| 18:26.22 | Bradipo | The summary is we are being DoS'ed. |
| 18:26.30 | Bradipo | The server is fine. |
| 18:26.36 | Bradipo | The firewall is fine. |
| 18:26.51 | Bradipo | The network is saturated with packets. |
| 18:27.05 | Bradipo | Obviously it isn't now or I wouldn't be talking to you. |
| 18:27.16 | Bradipo | But that is because XO dropped the routes for those individual IPs off the Internet. |
| 18:27.25 | Bradipo | Try a traceroute to www.sco.com |
| 18:27.27 | Bradipo | How far does it get? |
| 18:27.27 | bartaway | and Darl is frantically removing all linux source code from the ftp server... |
| 18:27.39 | Jayce^ | lol |
| 18:28.03 | Bradipo | brb |
| 18:31.53 | Hanuman | Bradipo: goes to 207.88.83.42 |
| 18:32.53 | Hanuman | at Concentric Networks |
| 18:33.19 | *** join/#utah tomeast (~teastmond@63-253-57-90.ip.mcleodusa.net) |
| 18:33.55 | hans | will someone run `host falcon.fugal.net fugal.net` |
| 18:34.12 | tensai | falcon.fugal.net is an alias for fugalh.dyndns.org |
| 18:34.15 | tensai | fugalh.dyndns.org has address 128.187.244.37 |
| 18:34.19 | jsmith | Using domain server: |
| 18:34.19 | jsmith | Name: fugal.net |
| 18:34.19 | jsmith | Address: 209.210.58.42#53 |
| 18:34.19 | jsmith | Aliases: |
| 18:34.19 | jsmith | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:34.20 | jsmith | Host falcom.fugal.net not found: 3(NXDOMAIN) |
| 18:34.25 | hans | sweet. now, someone on campus do the same thing? |
| 18:35.14 | hans | jsmith: typo |
| 18:35.24 | Jayce^ | falcon !m |
| 18:37.14 | jsmith | $ host falcon.fugal.net fugal.net |
| 18:37.14 | jsmith | ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached |
| 18:37.14 | jsmith | [jsmith@banff jsmith]$ |
| 18:38.01 | Jayce^ | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:38.01 | Jayce^ | falcon.fugal.net CNAME fugalh.dyndns.org |
| 18:38.01 | Jayce^ | fugalh.dyndns.org A 128.187.244.37 |
| 18:38.11 | hans | ack, i'm getting ddos'ed! |
| 18:38.15 | HarleyPig | jsmith: I get Invalid argument supplied for foreach when using ( mysql_fetch_assoc... as $var ) |
| 18:38.25 | hans | :) Actually this machine is dog slow and I'm also running apt-get dist-upgrade... |
| 18:38.38 | HarleyPig | and I get nothing when using $r = mysql... ; foreach ( $r as $v ) ... |
| 18:38.43 | Hanuman | quick - everyone ping -f hans! |
| 18:39.09 | hans | ~lart Hanuman |
| 18:39.09 | HarleyPig | ping -s 60000 -t hans |
| 18:39.11 | jsmith | HarleyPig: /msg me and we'll work it out... |
| 18:39.16 | Jayce^ | linux vs win98 boxes.. |
| 18:40.41 | hans | ok, I'll do the on-campus one: |
| 18:40.42 | hans | falcon.fugal.net is an alias for fugalh.rn.byu.edu. |
| 18:40.43 | hans | fugalh.rn.byu.edu has address 10.7.96.98 |
| 18:41.11 | hans | here's how: http://falcon.fugal.net/doc/bind9-doc/arm/Bv9ARM.ch06.html#AEN3043 |
| 18:41.59 | Hanuman | Jayce^: I remember that, and installing startup scripts on other peoples' computers |
| 18:42.15 | Hanuman | until some of us installed Linux and Win2k w/ logins |
| 18:42.29 | tensai | Jayce^: one ping of death to the win98 machine and the game's over |
| 18:42.59 | Hanuman | and the UT games every day after work |
| 18:43.05 | Hanuman | (speaking of game over) |
| 18:43.58 | Jayce^ | oh yeah, being manager had it's priveleges.. |
| 18:44.02 | Hanuman | I remember installing VNC viewer on the new network admin/pro windows guy they hired secretly |
| 18:44.08 | Jayce^ | invite all my friends over to work to game at nights.. |
| 18:44.13 | Hanuman | s/viewer/server/ |
| 18:44.16 | Jayce^ | oh I hated that freak |
| 18:44.37 | Hanuman | he was fun to make fun of at least |
| 18:45.00 | sjansen | Hanuman: Installing VNC? Why? |
| 18:45.02 | Jayce^ | let's not ask any of our tech people for help, and just go hire this IT guy, 'cause he says he has an mcse and can fix every problem we can think of |
| 18:45.47 | Hanuman | sjansen: I wasn't very proficient back then, and it was the only remote app I could think of that I could install to watch what he was doing |
| 18:46.21 | Hanuman | I can't remember what happened of it - he probably found it and just uninstalled it. |
| 18:47.50 | Hanuman | I didn't know much at all back then |
| 18:48.11 | Jayce^ | there we were, a completely unix shop, and the manager goes and hires an mcse, and puts him in charge of all it stuff |
| 18:48.21 | Jayce^ | and he of course that assumed programmers too |
| 18:48.25 | Hanuman | yeah - no kidding - we were all ticked |
| 18:48.26 | sjansen | So you guys decided to spy on how he spent his time? |
| 18:48.32 | Jayce^ | yes, wasnt' long after that, I left.. |
| 18:48.44 | Hanuman | with me |
| 18:48.54 | Jayce^ | his first statement after meeting was that we really needed to switcht he mail to exchange so it was secure |
| 18:49.11 | Jayce^ | gut didnt' do anything.. |
| 18:49.14 | Bradipo | What evidence can I provide that would prove to you that we are truly under DoS? |
| 18:49.20 | Jayce^ | but buy a few licenses.. |
| 18:49.26 | Hanuman | yeah - I remember going to Steve Comer (I think it was him) and trying to explain why Exchange wasn't a good idea |
| 18:49.48 | Hanuman | Bradipo: we don't know if you are or not, that's why we're asking you to summarize |
| 18:49.52 | Jayce^ | of course comer didnt' listen.. he holds programmers in contempts |
| 18:50.21 | Bradipo | <Bradipo> The summary is we are being DoS'ed. |
| 18:50.23 | Hanuman | He acted like he cared at least |
| 18:50.26 | Bradipo | Full pipe. |
| 18:50.28 | Bradipo | End of story. |
| 18:50.48 | Bradipo | Anyway, I have another meeting to go to. |
| 18:51.00 | Hanuman | Bradipo: by who? how? We know that from the press release you guys sent out. |
| 18:51.05 | bartw | but the packets are coming from the CEO's office, right? |
| 18:51.18 | Bradipo | We have no idea who is doing it. |
| 18:51.28 | hans | i believe you |
| 18:51.35 | Bradipo | We have no idea how except it's enough bandwidth to fill a DS3. |
| 18:51.54 | bartw | Brad: I do too. just poking your eye... |
| 18:51.59 | Hanuman | I'm just trying to get the full story - I believe you too |
| 18:52.00 | Bradipo | I know you all do. |
| 18:52.14 | Bradipo | Gotta run to a meeting... |
| 18:52.37 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, get mr kenny at viawest to make a release for you guys, that might help |
| 18:52.37 | Hanuman | We still love you Bradipo |
| 18:58.45 | hans | hmm |
| 18:58.46 | hans | Dec 11 11:58:28 falcon scsi.agent[6987]: bogus sysfs DEVPATH=/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:0c.0/host3/3:0:0:0 |
| 19:01.33 | tensai | hans: looks like you got r00ted. better format and reinstall. :) |
| 19:02.20 | hans | umm, no. :) looks more like I'm running a test kernel. It happened when I modprobed my scsi card's module |
| 19:02.37 | hans | aic7xxx |
| 19:03.11 | jsmith | Ahh... the joys of Adaptec SCSI hardware... :-) |
| 19:05.30 | *** join/#utah spr5 (~spr5@auth11-2.ycell.octelecom.net) |
| 19:24.05 | Hanuman | hans: your brother used footnotes - impressive... |
| 19:29.30 | hans | footnotes? |
| 19:30.31 | tensai | why isn't the plural of footnote feetnote? |
| 19:30.49 | jsmith | tensai: It should be :-) |
| 19:31.10 | Jayce^ | "proudfeet" :) |
| 19:31.51 | Hanuman | footneet |
| 19:57.23 | neybar_work | having the sco server DDoS'ed has at least one good side effect for me. I can see what kind of response Net::SSLeay will give me when contacting a downed, or unreachable site in my shopping cart app |
| 19:59.15 | Jayce^ | heh |
| 19:59.15 | Hanuman | neybar_work: ah - so it's you then - we see |
| 20:07.41 | sjansen | neybar_work: There's less malicious ways of doing your testing. |
| 20:16.34 | Hanuman | Have you guys seen this?: |
| 20:16.35 | Hanuman | http://www.rentacoder.com/RentACoder/default.asp |
| 20:17.18 | Jayce^ | bah.. asp.. not worth it |
| 20:17.28 | Jayce^ | kinda like rentageek |
| 20:17.50 | Hanuman | they have MySQL and other non/MS categories |
| 20:18.32 | Hanuman | This one lets coders to bid on projects against each other |
| 20:36.36 | neybar_work | that's a good way to start a flame way "Database is SQL Server" lots of people are touchy about that usage of SQL |
| 20:36.44 | neybar_work | s/way/war/ |
| 20:37.21 | neybar_work | in cast you can't read my mind I was referring to the email that merril wrote on the plug list |
| 20:42.42 | Jayce^ | in a 'cast' you say? |
| 20:43.21 | Hanuman | !a nap |
| 20:46.52 | *** join/#utah brailsmt_ (~michael@byu176783wks.rn.byu.edu) |
| 20:50.31 | Jayce^ | http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3979347 |
| 20:51.50 | neybar_work | I'm going home |
| 20:52.28 | Hanuman | !a nap for neybar_work |
| 20:54.26 | Jayce^ | how do you 'drool your pillow'... |
| 20:54.30 | Jayce^ | you swallow that thing? |
| 20:54.32 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 20:59.28 | Hanuman | question - when someone clicks on a link in an e-mail, does a referrer show up in the access_log, and if so, what is it? |
| 20:59.38 | Hanuman | (does that make any sense at all?) |
| 21:00.33 | hans | Hanuman: all email clients set the refferrer to "Conan the Barbarian" |
| 21:00.47 | Hanuman | yeah, right |
| 21:00.59 | Hanuman | is it just a direct link? |
| 21:01.16 | Hanuman | ie just as though you were to type it into your browser window? |
| 21:01.25 | tensai | Hanuman: it entirely depends on the browser and email client |
| 21:01.43 | tensai | why not try it out? |
| 21:01.43 | Hanuman | know of any good references on where I can find what browsers and e-mail clients do what? |
| 21:01.58 | Hanuman | tensai: I'm too lazy - I was hoping someone just knew |
| 21:02.12 | *** topic/#utah by hans -> http://plug.org http://sllug.org http://uug.byu.edu http://fslc.usu.edu http://www.ldsoss.org - ask ibot for the news (/msg ibot news) - LotR info: http://falcon.fugal.net:8180/JSPWiki/Wiki.jsp?page=TrilogyTuesday |
| 21:03.08 | Hanuman | The reason I'm asking is whenever we publish a coupon code at cwdkids.com it always ends up all over the net. We want only those customers coming through the sources we approve (like through our newsletter) to be able to use those coupon codes |
| 21:03.32 | Hanuman | I was also thinking of just having a link which automatically sets a discount if they came from the right place |
| 21:06.59 | hans | Hanuman: good luck. that's not going to work that much better than a coupon code, plus you'll have false positives |
| 21:07.17 | hans | A better way would be to give unique coupon codes to people that are only valid once. |
| 21:10.50 | neybar_work | course that wouldn't stop an illegitimate source from using the code first |
| 21:12.03 | hans | right, but it would stop them from sharing them deliberately (after the first time getting burned) |
| 21:12.24 | hans | if you really want to authenticate, well that's a whole new problem. |
| 21:12.28 | synic | can anyone recommend a fast debian mirror? |
| 21:12.41 | hans | ftp.us.debian.org points to bunches |
| 21:12.47 | hans | or try apt-spy |
| 21:12.56 | synic | ok |
| 21:14.54 | Hanuman | hans: that's all what I'm trying to figure out - which method is our best method to keep the fakes out |
| 21:16.27 | Hanuman | I guess encrypting a passphrase tagged on with some unique identifier would keep people from guessing the range of the codes should we do the unique code thing |
| 21:17.02 | neybar_work | are you sending out the initial newsletter? |
| 21:17.18 | neybar_work | if you are can't you key your coupon code off their email address? |
| 21:18.08 | hans | Hanuman: ok, or use random codes and don't use a range at all. |
| 21:18.13 | neybar_work | or even have the coupon code be their email address, or some other unique identifier that you are storing |
| 21:18.45 | hans | if you want it to be like a real coupon neybar_work's suggestion is ideal |
| 21:18.46 | Jayce^ | or a hash of their email :) ewww |
| 21:19.31 | hans | if you want to make sure these coupons are non-transferrable, well you have an authentication problem. |
| 21:20.10 | hans | and your users will need to get some secret to use to authenticate to you that a) they won't share, and b) they don't get via email or some other insecure way. |
| 21:20.57 | Hanuman | neybar_work: good idea |
| 21:21.05 | neybar_work | I am getting so excited about Tuesday I can hardly sit still. (remember the butterflies the day before a cool field trip in grade school?) |
| 21:21.07 | tensai | seems to me that you don't really have a problem at all. the more people see the coupons, the more stuff you sell. |
| 21:21.38 | neybar_work | he just wants to offer an extra special deal to those on his newslist, I don't think he is going to restrict sales |
| 21:21.39 | hans | tensai: I agree. Is marketing that smart? :) |
| 21:21.49 | Hanuman | hans: not if we set a cookie w/ their e-mail in it after clicking on the newsletter |
| 21:21.51 | Jayce^ | neybar_work, dont' even go to work tomorrow or monday.. you'll be worthless.. |
| 21:21.55 | tensai | people who may have purchased something elsewhere or not at all |
| 21:22.22 | Hanuman | well, they could transfer the link that sets the cookie I guess |
| 21:22.41 | hans | Hanuman: a cookie will raise the bar above the computer illiterate, yes |
| 21:22.56 | neybar_work | if I am careful reading /., talking on IRC and browsing the Internet looks an awful lot like working, so I think I should be able to slip by. |
| 21:23.19 | Jayce^ | lol |
| 21:23.35 | Jayce^ | yeah, most bosses cant' tell IRC from coding in vim :) |
| 21:23.45 | jsmith | Mine can... |
| 21:23.52 | emcnabb | does xchat have vim bindings? |
| 21:24.34 | jsmith | Maybe the timestamps down the left side and the list of users down the right side give it away... |
| 21:24.41 | Hanuman | tensai: wish it were that easy - if you can limit your coupons you can give better deals |
| 21:24.47 | jsmith | Oh, and none of my code has this many comments! |
| 21:24.54 | Hanuman | which make your brand look better and attract more custoemrs |
| 21:25.00 | neybar_work | jsmith: lol |
| 21:25.21 | Jayce^ | jsmith, tell him it's a 'log' :) |
| 21:25.26 | Jayce^ | it's true that way |
| 21:25.30 | tensai | Hanuman: well, I never claimed to know much about sales |
| 21:25.48 | jsmith | Doesn't look like my CVS logs either... |
| 21:26.02 | jsmith | Problem is, my boss is actually *smart* and understands what IRC is |
| 21:26.20 | zzzirk | bummer for you dude |
| 21:26.22 | zzzirk | ;) |
| 21:26.40 | hans | heh. the byu newspaper runs an article on lord of the rings lines and doesn't even realize what we elect few have done |
| 21:26.43 | tensai | better to have a smart boss than a phb in the long run |
| 21:26.55 | hans | they just talk about those normal people who want to see it on opening night or opening week |
| 21:27.11 | Jayce^ | yeah.. |
| 21:27.21 | Jayce^ | I was laughing at those, mere midnight showing folk... |
| 21:27.33 | Jayce^ | not dedicated enough :p |
| 21:27.35 | hans | Hanuman: price discrimination is what you're talking about |
| 21:28.05 | jsmith | tensai: Amen! |
| 21:28.25 | jsmith | tensai: Of course, it absolutely rocks that he understands open source and supports it (with my time!) |
| 21:28.40 | hans | that means you can sell stuff for cheaper for a few people. as long as the people are few it works out. what you want is for the coupons to not replicate. |
| 21:29.11 | hans | e.g. coupon cutters consistently get better deals because they're willing to go through the trouble. Nobody needs to steal coupons - there are plenty to go around - but only a few actually use them |
| 21:29.47 | hans | the grocery stores would rather they buy from them at a lower profit margin than they buy from their competitors, but they don't want to unilaterally lower prices, so they make coupons |
| 21:30.31 | hans | btw, I still don't see where my brother used a footnote. |
| 21:30.43 | jsmith | hans: Actually, would you go into detail on whether or not the grocery store "discount cards" are a sham? |
| 21:33.04 | Jayce^ | hans, in his message to plug, re: merrills question on sql |
| 21:33.16 | Newsome | is it just me, or is _everything_ slow today? |
| 21:33.39 | Jayce^ | it's the sco ddos :) |
| 21:33.42 | *** join/#utah arockj (arockj@c-24-2-96-63.client.comcast.net) |
| 21:33.46 | Jayce^ | sorry Bradipo, just had to say it :) |
| 21:34.07 | Newsome | and it's killed Groklaw and my site? I wish SCO would stop doing that then :) |
| 21:34.29 | Jayce^ | seriously though, not seeing any real problems myself |
| 21:34.43 | Newsome | dang. |
| 21:34.55 | hans | i'm having serious problems at work here. thankfully I can use my home box as a gateway of sorts |
| 21:35.09 | Newsome | I mean, not dang that you're having problems, but dang, it's not a common problem :) |
| 21:35.35 | Jayce^ | sounds like a byu problem |
| 21:35.56 | arockj | Jayce^: lol |
| 21:35.58 | hans | I had this problem on and off yesterday |
| 21:36.00 | Newsome | hmm. could be... checking noc.byu.edu... |
| 21:36.12 | hans | I just don't get routed to the outside world. :( |
| 21:36.22 | hans | and my CSR is 'unavailable' |
| 21:36.26 | hans | ~lart my csr |
| 21:37.49 | hans | jsmith: I suspect the discount cards are more about market research than price discrimination. lower prices are the bait. although price discrimination probably plays a part because not everyone gets one or uses it |
| 21:37.52 | Newsome | getting slashdotted is getting old. |
| 21:37.59 | Hanuman | hans: some businesses can't afford to have just anyone use their coupons. It's either some coupons or none at all. |
| 21:38.38 | hans | Hanuman: then they're not really using coupons 'right', because the big fish still make money on goods sold with coupons, just less money |
| 21:38.49 | Hanuman | jsmith: also, having a store's name on your keychain carrying around with you has some psychological benefits as well |
| 21:38.54 | hans | of course right is defined as whatever you do that makes you money |
| 21:39.22 | Hanuman | hans: exactly |
| 21:39.27 | hans | Hanuman: of course my lecture was about real coupons. electronic ones, like music, are much easier to copy and redistribute, and to use. |
| 21:39.50 | Hanuman | hans: exactly++ |
| 21:40.06 | hans | if you could type in a 4-digit number to get a discount on goods at walmart, everyone would know that number within a few weeks |
| 21:40.12 | Hanuman | or perhaps that should be exactly** |
| 21:40.15 | hans | so it's not exactly a digital problem |
| 21:40.31 | Hanuman | naw - exactly^2 |
| 21:41.06 | Hanuman | hans: hence the reason we don't use coupons very often |
| 21:41.12 | hans | Likewise, if they gave you your paper coupon back after using it, it would be less good for the shop. unless of course the real benefit is the profiling and demographics |
| 21:41.40 | hans | so you just need to figure out how to make the coupons work like paper coupons so you can limit how many are out there. |
| 21:41.41 | Hanuman | unlike Papa Johns |
| 21:42.05 | hans | let the customers worry about not giving their coupons away. |
| 21:42.07 | Hanuman | hans: btw - your brother's footnote was in response to Merril's e-mail |
| 21:42.22 | hans | ah, one of those database threads I never read |
| 21:42.54 | Hanuman | I was mainly pondering about the possibilities of not allowing them to pass on the coupons |
| 21:43.05 | Hanuman | not quite sure what reason I'd do that for yet |
| 21:43.25 | Hanuman | My boss decides stuff like that - I just tell her what's possible |
| 21:43.37 | hans | Hanuman: if you were in marketing, I'd challenge you to think about raising prices and allowing coupons to be distributed at will, which is a form of advertising |
| 21:43.41 | hans | that you don't have to pay for |
| 21:43.54 | hans | and you still come out on top, if your coupons aren't too generous |
| 21:44.09 | Hanuman | yeah, unfortunately I can't make those decisions at this company as much as I'd like to |
| 21:44.34 | hans | well, unless you have a degree in marketing or economics that I'm not aware of, I'm not sure I'd want you making those decisions either. :) |
| 21:44.45 | Hanuman | I agree |
| 21:44.56 | Hanuman | I'm minoring in business |
| 21:45.16 | hans | i'm majoring in non-business. ;-) |
| 21:45.21 | Hanuman | My boss doesn't even have a degree in any type of business, and that's the major problem |
| 21:45.37 | Hanuman | She has a degree in English and Art History |
| 21:45.55 | Hanuman | All her experience is at this company |
| 21:46.12 | Hanuman | There are many times I'd love to give her some tips, but I keep my mouth shut |
| 21:47.38 | hans | a programmer giving an english major business advice. that would be funny :) (jabbing at us all, not hanuman personally) |
| 21:47.51 | Hanuman | lol |
| 21:47.57 | hans | blind leading blind |
| 21:48.05 | *** part/#utah arockj (arockj@c-24-2-96-63.client.comcast.net) |
| 21:48.07 | Hanuman | that's a programmer/e-business minor |
| 21:48.14 | Hanuman | so I'm only partially blind |
| 21:48.29 | Hanuman | At least I've taken a few business classes vs her taking none |
| 21:48.29 | hans | the worst kind ;-O |
| 21:48.43 | hans | ah but she has some experience, so you're even again |
| 21:48.46 | Hanuman | exactly |
| 21:48.54 | Hanuman | ~lart hans |
| 21:49.26 | hans | I'm enjoying this debate. I'm in a debating mood today :) |
| 21:49.34 | Hanuman | Hey - I have my own side-contracting business, so I've got some experience |
| 21:49.43 | hans | do you give coupons? ;-) |
| 21:50.07 | Hanuman | I can't - she won't let me |
| 21:50.24 | hans | i mean in your side-contracting business |
| 21:50.38 | Hanuman | no, but I have other incentives |
| 21:51.35 | Hanuman | My interview w/ the company was interesting - I was asking questions about company goals and what their business plans were and nobody could really give me a good answer |
| 21:51.49 | Hanuman | I don't even think they care whom their competitors are |
| 21:52.08 | Hanuman | But they hired me and I'm getting paid so I'm happy |
| 21:54.22 | neybar_work | what is the vim command to redo... I can't remember |
| 21:54.41 | Hanuman | u |
| 21:54.48 | neybar_work | that is undo |
| 21:55.00 | neybar_work | I did u, now I want tha change back |
| 21:55.06 | Hanuman | ah |
| 21:55.13 | Hanuman | I forgot too |
| 21:55.26 | hans | c-r |
| 21:55.31 | Hanuman | I can't redo my answer |
| 21:55.32 | neybar_work | tanks |
| 21:55.50 | neybar_work | hmm, doesn't work |
| 21:56.05 | hans | control -r |
| 21:56.22 | Hanuman | is that control *minus* r or control r? |
| 21:56.27 | hans | control r |
| 21:56.39 | Hanuman | is that w/ a \n or w/o? |
| 21:56.41 | hans | tensai: how goes the sourdough? |
| 21:57.19 | Hanuman | if you can't tell I'm just trying to pass the time till I go in 3 mins |
| 21:57.55 | Hanuman | ~slashdot |
| 21:57.59 | Jayce^ | :redo |
| 21:58.15 | Hanuman | Any solaris fans in here? |
| 21:58.26 | hans | is that a baseball team? |
| 21:58.42 | Hanuman | yeah - a new one - haven't you heard of them? |
| 21:58.54 | hans | Hanuman: isn't that what bzflag is for? I thought irc was for pretending to work but not really working |
| 21:58.58 | Hanuman | They're from Puerto Rico |
| 21:59.14 | Hanuman | hans: yeah, but I am pretending to work |
| 21:59.20 | hans | oh, ok. : |
| 21:59.35 | Hanuman | I'm not drooling, though |
| 22:00.16 | Jayce^ | when is a sane person not in a depeche mode mood :) |
| 22:00.55 | Hanuman | cya guys later... |
| 22:00.55 | jsmith | Hanuman: Go home! |
| 22:00.58 | hans | when he's in an erasure mood, a jazz mood, or an afro-celt mood |
| 22:01.37 | Jayce^ | yeah, but those can co-exist |
| 22:02.57 | tensai | hans: it's sitting in the fridge. haven't had time to make it yet. maybe tonight. how long does it take to just create an active start? |
| 22:03.02 | hans | you can enjoy them all at any time, but I argue that they can not coexist as specific moods. :-) speaking of good jazz this borders sample CD is pretty good. |
| 22:03.06 | hans | http://fugalh.rn.byu.edu:8888/Blue2002/ |
| 22:03.09 | tensai | but not necessarily make bread with it |
| 22:03.15 | hans | oops, s/fugalh.rn.byu.edu/falcon.fugal.net/ |
| 22:03.28 | hans | tensai: just do it overnight |
| 22:03.40 | tensai | does it need constant stirring or poking |
| 22:03.43 | hans | you can re-refrigerate it if you're not ready to make bread tomorrow. |
| 22:03.47 | hans | nope, just let it sit |
| 22:03.56 | hans | real low-maintenance |
| 22:04.26 | tensai | cool. I'll work on it while the wife watches Survivor |
| 22:05.18 | hans | tensai: make enough to make pancakes in the morning out of it :) |
| 22:05.43 | hans | remember to half the recipe if it's just two of ya |
| 22:05.59 | tensai | good idea. I just bought some veggie sausages to try too. and OJ. |
| 22:23.52 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@128.187.136.158) |
| 22:31.28 | *** join/#utah jakea (~jakea@jakea.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 22:32.44 | emcnabb | sjansen, you are a punk!!! |
| 22:32.57 | emcnabb | I know you're still on AIM |
| 22:33.03 | emcnabb | I have more accounts than you think |
| 22:35.34 | Bradipo | Jayce^: You can say whatever you like. :-) |
| 22:35.36 | sjansen | I told you I'd block you. And I'll keep on blocking any account you get until you learn to behave in a civilized manner. |
| 22:39.22 | jakea | emcnabb: Any chance of putting SSS 1.5 on the UUG ftp site or it is someplace else |
| 22:40.06 | emcnabb | we'll get it up soon |
| 22:40.15 | emcnabb | if you really need it I can get you a copy |
| 22:40.47 | sjansen | jakea: Ask him to email you a copy. |
| 22:41.04 | jakea | sjansen: Um, no |
| 22:41.18 | jakea | emcnabb: I'll just wait |
| 22:41.27 | emcnabb | ok |
| 22:41.33 | emcnabb | sjansen, <warn> |
| 22:41.46 | jakea | I just need something to hog up bandwidth next time this guy is here so I can slow down his game |
| 22:42.01 | jakea | and I DL SSS anyway, to give to people who want it |
| 22:47.55 | neybar_work | so what do you do if your employeer is buying student versions of software cause they are too cheap for the full priced version? |
| 22:48.14 | Jayce^ | lol |
| 22:48.41 | tensai | 1-800-RULEGIT |
| 22:49.12 | sjansen | emcnabb: So how does your coverage work? |
| 22:50.20 | neybar_work | I was talking to a cooworker about it and his reply was "the student version is better then the pirated version I am currently on" |
| 22:50.26 | sjansen | neybar_work: Point out that if the SPA decided to audit them they'd be royally hosed. Link a few articles about companies that it happened to. Suggest OSS alternatives. |
| 22:50.39 | neybar_work | they don't care |
| 22:50.56 | neybar_work | I care, but not enough to loose my job over it yet :-D |
| 22:51.23 | neybar_work | I plan on burning all bridges when I can replace this job :-) |
| 22:51.40 | sjansen | Well, there's the question. Document your objection and move on. Look for a job with more ethical management at your convenience. |
| 22:52.12 | sjansen | Do your best to leave them in the lurch at the worst possible moment. };-) |
| 23:26.22 | brailsmt | i hate it when i leave out key words... |
| 23:26.27 | brailsmt | like |
| 23:26.47 | brailsmt | like 'never' in that line about doing homework... *sigh* |
| 23:28.06 | jsmith | It's a great feeling, isn't it? |
| 23:43.49 | jakea | sjansen: I think ethical managemant is like military intellegence |
| 23:44.21 | jakea | and if there is any part of management that is ethical, the other parts will do the best they can to force them out |
| 23:44.24 | jakea | believe me, I kow |
| 23:44.26 | jakea | know |
| 23:46.17 | Bradipo | I hate corporate politics. :-) |
| 23:47.39 | jakea | unfortunately, I've discovered is everywhere you go |
| 23:47.44 | jakea | +it |
| 23:51.44 | Jayce^ | Bradipo, everyone hates your corporate politics though ;p |
| 23:56.38 | bartw | Bradipo: what's the ETA for your servers coming back online? |
| 23:57.05 | Bradipo | That's a good question that only the attacker knows. |
| 23:57.26 | *** part/#utah tomeast (~teastmond@63-253-57-90.ip.mcleodusa.net) |
| 23:57.50 | Bradipo | The problem is that if we take off the block, the flood comes in unabated. |
| 23:58.10 | sjansen | DOS is for sissies. |
| 23:59.52 | Bradipo | This DoS is definitely a well coordinated one. |