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| 03:26.47 | Tenebram | 'kay, I've got a bit of a problem |
| 03:27.06 | Tenebram | Apache won't start, and I'm not familiar enough with it to even know where to start looking. |
| 03:27.24 | Tenebram | I've gone through config files and man pages and several web searches, but haven't found anything. |
| 03:28.24 | Tenebram | the output is as follows: |
| 03:28.24 | Tenebram | [Sun Dec 07 20:26:48 2003] [crit] (92)Protocol not available: make_sock: for address [::]:80, apr_socket_opt_set: (IPV6_V6ONLY) |
| 03:28.28 | Tenebram | no listening sockets available, shutting down |
| 03:28.30 | Tenebram | Unable to open logs |
| 03:28.31 | Tenebram | anyone have any ideas? |
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| 03:31.03 | jp78 | Tenebram, sounds like your apache is configured to listen to an IPv6 address, but your kernel does not have IPv6 support turned on |
| 03:31.14 | Tenebram | That's what I thought |
| 03:31.42 | Tenebram | But I remember enabling IPv6 in my kernel, and I can't figure out how to get apache to listen to an IPv4 address |
| 03:32.04 | jp78 | if you say ifconfig -a, do you see IPv6 addresses in the output? |
| 03:32.44 | Tenebram | Link encap:IPv6-in-IPv4 ? |
| 03:32.56 | jp78 | to get apache to listen to IPv4 addresses should be easy... BindAddress * should do the trick |
| 03:33.17 | jp78 | no, I don't think IPv6-in-IPv4 is it... I'm assuming you're using linux? |
| 03:33.21 | Tenebram | Yep. |
| 03:33.48 | jp78 | hmm, unfortunately, I don't have any linux boxes around here to give you an example from |
| 03:34.38 | Tenebram | 'kay, I uncommented 'BindAddress *' from apache2.conf, and this is now the output |
| 03:34.47 | Tenebram | Syntax error on line 95 of /etc/apache2/conf/apache2.conf: |
| 03:34.48 | Tenebram | Invalid command 'BindAddress', perhaps mis-spelled or defined by a module not included in the server configurati |
| 03:34.52 | Tenebram | hrmm... |
| 03:36.02 | jp78 | oh, apache2... look for the Listen directive instead |
| 03:36.39 | Tenebram | Thanks for all the help, by the way. |
| 03:36.41 | Tenebram | Much appreciated. |
| 03:36.44 | jp78 | you probably want something like Listen 80 |
| 03:36.52 | Tenebram | that's what's there now |
| 03:37.27 | Tenebram | And I'd want 'Listen IPv4address:80' instead? |
| 03:37.44 | Tenebram | Yay, it worked. |
| 03:38.54 | Tenebram | wait, no it didn't. |
| 03:38.57 | jp78 | yeah, here's the definitive page: http://httpd.apache.org/docs-2.0/bind.html ... scroll down to "Special IPv6 Considerations |
| 03:39.01 | Tenebram | Hrmm... I can probably figure it out from here. |
| 03:39.40 | jp78 | you probably want Listen 0.0.0.0:80, according to this doc |
| 03:42.46 | Tenebram | With either of those, it runs, but returns 0 |
| 03:43.28 | Tenebram | with no output |
| 03:44.14 | jp78 | hmmm |
| 03:44.34 | jp78 | does apachectl configtest give you any useful information/ |
| 03:44.35 | jp78 | ? |
| 03:45.39 | Tenebram | hrmm... I have no apachectl... |
| 03:46.32 | jp78 | try httpd -t (I, unfortunately, don't have any apache2 here, either) |
| 03:46.37 | Tenebram | Although there is into in the log file. |
| 03:46.45 | Tenebram | info, even |
| 03:48.01 | Tenebram | [Sun Dec 07 20:45:15 2003] [alert] (EAI 2)Name or service not known: mod_unique_id: unable to find IPv4 address of "CorkTooth" |
| 03:48.04 | Tenebram | Configuration Failed |
| 03:48.15 | jp78 | CorkTooth? |
| 03:48.31 | Tenebram | that should be my computername |
| 03:48.35 | Tenebram | hostname, that is |
| 03:48.56 | Tenebram | although I seem to recall not knowing what I was doing with something related to that |
| 03:49.42 | jp78 | is it listed in /etc/hosts, by chance? |
| 03:50.24 | Tenebram | you know, it's not |
| 03:50.38 | Tenebram | let's fix that... |
| 03:51.43 | Tenebram | and it works. |
| 03:51.52 | jp78 | cool, glad I could help |
| 03:51.54 | Tenebram | Now I need to configure apache decently. |
| 03:51.59 | Tenebram | Yeah, lots of help. |
| 03:52.12 | Tenebram | I haven't done anything with apache up until now. |
| 03:52.20 | Tenebram | And so was kind of lost. |
| 03:52.25 | jp78 | well, I've got to go give my son a bath, so you're on your own with the apache config :-) |
| 03:52.35 | Tenebram | Alright, thanks. |
| 03:52.43 | jp78 | good luck with it |
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| 04:26.48 | Tenebram | Hrmm... |
| 04:26.58 | Tenebram | I can't quite seem to get it working. |
| 04:27.03 | Tenebram | I get a 403 on everything |
| 04:27.33 | Tenebram | I get the feeling I'm missing something small important. |
| 04:42.14 | jp78 | b |
| 04:42.19 | jp78 | how's it going, Tenebram? |
| 04:43.24 | jp78 | any luck? |
| 04:44.31 | Tenebram | Yeah, I got it working |
| 04:45.01 | jp78 | get past your 403 errors? |
| 04:45.18 | Tenebram | But now I can't connect to it from anywhere outside of BYU campus |
| 04:45.32 | jp78 | do you have an external IP address? |
| 04:45.39 | Tenebram | Yeah, I was setting permissions on the wrong directory in commonapache2.conf |
| 04:45.42 | Tenebram | Yep. |
| 04:45.59 | jp78 | firewall rules anywhere? (iptables/ipchains) |
| 04:46.22 | Tenebram | It connects, Nope. |
| 04:46.24 | jp78 | I had a friend who set up ntp, couldn't figure out why it wasn't working, finally figured out it was an iptable rule |
| 04:46.42 | Tenebram | Curses, I left a half-finished message there when I went to check something |
| 04:46.53 | Tenebram | I can connect via ssh and ftp just fine |
| 04:47.30 | Tenebram | It doesn't refuse the http connection, it just waits. |
| 04:47.41 | jp78 | sounds like a firewall rule somewhere |
| 04:47.51 | Tenebram | hrmm... |
| 04:48.05 | Tenebram | let's put it on another port and see what happens. |
| 04:49.46 | Tenebram | Curses, same thing |
| 04:52.24 | Tenebram | no, nmap says it's just fine |
| 04:53.38 | jp78 | anything in the system logs about rejected connections or such? |
| 04:53.57 | Tenebram | Ooh, good idea, lemme check |
| 04:55.03 | Tenebram | nope, nothing of the sort |
| 04:55.08 | jp78 | bummer |
| 04:55.36 | jp78 | you say you can reach it from inside byu, but not from outside? |
| 04:55.56 | Tenebram | Yeah |
| 04:56.20 | jp78 | sounds like a byu firewall... did you try a high-numbered port (high like > 20000)? |
| 04:58.31 | Tenebram | I tried 8080, but let's try really big |
| 04:59.59 | Tenebram | 'kay, it's on 20000 right now |
| 05:02.41 | Tenebram | wish I had a decent account on an external host so I could be more thorough |
| 05:03.15 | jp78 | what's your IP, I'll try to hit it |
| 05:03.23 | Tenebram | 10.7.249.230 |
| 05:03.37 | jp78 | well, 10. is not an external IP |
| 05:03.48 | Tenebram | you know, you have an excellent point there. |
| 05:03.54 | jp78 | net-10 is an rfc1918 block |
| 05:04.07 | Tenebram | Yeah, that'd be right. |
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| 05:04.18 | Tenebram | now that IS silly. |
| 05:04.19 | jp78 | I suspect that's a big part of your problem :-) |
| 05:04.52 | art__ | why the heck is there a SCObot? |
| 05:04.56 | Tenebram | Why didn't I think about that? |
| 05:05.02 | Tenebram | why isn't there a scobot, art? |
| 05:05.25 | art__ | is it just waiting for me to post some source code so I can get sued too? |
| 05:05.31 | Tenebram | yes. yes it is. |
| 05:05.55 | Wiggy | Wait, 10. isn't external IP? I swore it was. Hmm... |
| 05:06.07 | Tenebram | see, I was unsure. |
| 05:06.21 | jp78 | 10. is definitely not external |
| 05:06.55 | jp78 | $ whois 10.0.0.0 |
| 05:06.57 | jp78 | ... |
| 05:07.27 | jp78 | Comment: This block is reserved for special purposes. |
| 05:07.27 | jp78 | Comment: Please see RFC 1918 for additional information. |
| 05:07.35 | Wiggy | Yea, yea ;) |
| 05:07.45 | Wiggy | Like I said, I thought it was. Hence, I've learned something :D |
| 05:09.08 | jp78 | also 172.16.0.0/12 and 192.168.0.0/16 |
| 05:09.18 | Wiggy | knew 'bout those |
| 05:11.43 | Tenebram | I was told that my computer was externally accessable, hrmm... |
| 05:14.34 | jp78 | try hitting http://www.flipdog.com/cgi-bin/ipcheck and see what it says your IP is... then try hitting that from outside to see if you have a static nat |
| 05:15.55 | Tenebram | hitting it from outside? |
| 05:16.15 | Tenebram | hrmm... from here I get the IP of a proxy server |
| 05:16.23 | jp78 | I suspect you're hosed |
| 05:17.13 | Tenebram | quite possibly... |
| 05:17.44 | Tenebram | Although I was told that they just did a dynamic nat to an externally visible IP |
| 05:19.04 | jp78 | well, I think you need to talk to your network provider people... find out exactly what's what, if they have a static nat for you, find out what it is |
| 05:19.20 | Tenebram | Yeah, that's what it seems like |
| 05:19.34 | Tenebram | Thanks for your help though |
| 05:20.25 | jp78 | no problem, happy to help out |
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| 06:59.13 | Tenebram | http://users.adelphia.net/~dbresson/switchlinux3.swf |
| 14:09.07 | hans | Tenebram: http://checkip.dyndns.org:8245/ (the port 8245 gets past them seeing the proxy IP) |
| 14:14.14 | Tenebram | nope, that still gives me the address of the proxy server |
| 14:14.27 | Tenebram | of A proxy server, that is |
| 14:14.32 | Tenebram | 128.187.241.145, specifically |
| 14:15.27 | Tenebram | hrmm... |
| 14:18.41 | Tenebram | Any other ideas? |
| 14:26.22 | hans | Tenebram: where are you? |
| 14:26.52 | hans | rather, where is this computer? |
| 14:27.59 | Tenebram | About two feet directly beneath me |
| 14:28.07 | Tenebram | Heritage halls |
| 14:28.38 | Tenebram | BYU campus, etc. |
| 14:28.40 | hans | I'm in Wyview, and that works for me |
| 14:29.13 | Tenebram | hrmm... I guess they've got a bit different setup here. |
| 14:29.16 | Tenebram | Any ideas? |
| 14:30.00 | hans | yeah, I believe 128.187.241.145 *is* your external ip. What makes you believe it's the proxy? |
| 14:31.21 | Tenebram | It's not running any of the services of my computer, and a reverse DNS gives it the hostname of a proxy |
| 14:31.32 | Tenebram | byu075002wks.rn.byu.edu |
| 14:31.41 | hans | /whois Tenebram |
| 14:32.13 | Tenebram | hrmm |
| 14:32.29 | hans | either it's a very ubiquitous proxy or it's not a proxy |
| 14:32.42 | Tenebram | well it's something other than my computer. |
| 14:32.48 | hans | what ports are open on your computer? |
| 14:32.51 | hans | firewall? |
| 14:32.59 | Tenebram | ftp, ssh, http |
| 14:33.19 | hans | have you tried accessing it by that IP from off-campus? |
| 14:33.53 | hans | In the brilliant BYU tradition of insanity, you can't access it with the external IP from on-campus |
| 14:34.02 | Tenebram | that's odd... |
| 14:34.02 | hans | I nmapped you from off campus and those three ports are the ones open |
| 14:34.11 | Tenebram | How interesting. |
| 14:34.26 | Tenebram | how would that even work? |
| 14:35.02 | hans | well, you're being natted to that external IP, but the internal network doesn't route through the natting box |
| 14:35.12 | Tenebram | that works |
| 14:35.40 | hans | and hence no reverse nat happens. It's a routing issue. probably overlooked (because they probably don't plan on people doing what we do. If they did they'd come up with a better solution because they probably don't want people doing what we do. :) |
| 14:36.00 | hans | so we just lie low and don't complain about their idiosyncrasies when they benefit us. |
| 14:36.14 | hans | ibot, spell idiosynchrasy |
| 14:36.17 | | possible spellings for idiosynchrasy: idiosyncrasy idiosyncrasy's idiosyncrasies |
| 14:36.29 | hans | ooh, I was righty |
| 14:39.01 | Tenebram | Hey, thanks for your help |
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| 14:42.11 | Tenebram | You know, that not being a proxy makes things make a lot more sense now |
| 14:43.42 | Tenebram | Well, time for class. |
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| 15:39.52 | Hanuman | Good to see Paul Johnson on LDSOSS |
| 15:40.42 | Hanuman | Now if we could just get Matz on there |
| 15:53.20 | bonez39 | what is LDSOSS? can I ask? |
| 15:53.37 | sjansen | ldsoss.org |
| 15:56.49 | Hanuman | It's an organization we've setup to discuss and promote OSS software in a standard that stands in accordance with LDS values |
| 15:57.50 | bonez39 | sounds interesting.. |
| 15:57.50 | Hanuman | You don't have to be LDS to be on the list - some of the discussion is LDS-specific, but others are just issues related to Family History, and general software promotion for the good of humanity |
| 15:59.19 | Hanuman | I'm debating at the moment and am about to bring it up with the list as to whether the group ought to take specific stances on certain issues, such as create our own definition of what we mean by "Open-Source Software", similar to what GNU and FSF have done |
| 16:01.11 | *** join/#utah tensai (~tensai@dsl.dyn.01-75.budget.net) |
| 16:01.37 | hans | i'd rather develop software than debate |
| 16:02.23 | hans | tensai: get my email? |
| 16:03.46 | Hanuman | I'm thinking the same way. I've thought of when I get a little-less busy, starting another foundation, less LDS-centric devoted to promoting the good in Technology in general. This particular group could take stances on subjects, would be setup as a not-for-profit organization, would take donations, and maybe even support LDSOSS. I'm seeing LDSOSS for the moment as just a tool, rather than a specific organization or foundation. |
| 16:07.34 | Hanuman | hans: how efficient are those C++ libs in parsing gedcoms? Would you recommend them or the Perl? |
| 16:09.49 | hans | Hanuman: it's actually straight C, and it is quite efficient |
| 16:10.07 | hans | I recommend the perl unless you are writing in C or C++ in which case I recommend that one |
| 16:10.30 | hans | if perl really is tooo slow you might be able to use the C one in a perl script. you're on your own there. |
| 16:10.39 | hans | i think paul's is more mature, though. been around longer |
| 16:11.32 | Hanuman | hans: definitely. I've just thought of writing some Perl modules that focus on the matching and merging of gedcom files. A wrapper with the C in that instance might be a bit faster for such modules. |
| 16:12.10 | Hanuman | xs is a pain-in-the-neck, though |
| 16:12.11 | hans | i think in such a situation most of the time would be traversing data structures. |
| 16:12.43 | hans | either that or memory allocation. |
| 16:12.45 | Hanuman | That's probably true - I haven't really thought through it yet - I've got too many other things on my plate right now |
| 16:13.19 | Hanuman | I've thought of modules that accept either files or databases or both as input structures to compare |
| 16:13.23 | hans | I once had an app that spent most of its time doing new and delete. :) we were using an in-house dog-stupid gedcom parser in C++ though |
| 16:13.54 | hans | that was on big files, of course. As in really big |
| 16:14.34 | Hanuman | yeah - I think modules to be used in this manner would want to run in the background as either services or cron-jobs |
| 16:14.35 | hans | As in it would take hours to do its stuff. probably would have taken a fraction of the time if we used a memory pool |
| 16:15.28 | Hanuman | I think the C would be fun, though since I've never really done a huge project in C - just little dinky ones required for school. |
| 16:15.33 | tensai | hans: yup. looking forward to some good sourdough. |
| 16:16.20 | sjansen | Hanuman: Large projects in C are _not_ fun. They can be satisfying, however. |
| 16:16.26 | hans | the prof couldn't figure out why it was such an issue. he was a C guy, and his parser parsed real quick like. I felt really stupid when my nifty OO approach turned out to be the culprit. (a mitigatable culprit, with a few minor optimizations in the form of a memory pool for example) |
| 16:16.53 | hans | but at least I could use my parser. :-) |
| 16:17.29 | hans | I should have tried harder to push the one I posted on the list. at the time we were thinking of distributing though, and they wanted to sell it. |
| 16:17.34 | Hanuman | sjansen: that underline was pretty cool...anyway, I agree - I'm not looking at it for the fun, but rather the accomplishment |
| 16:17.52 | Hanuman | hans: was that the gedcom.pm list? |
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| 16:20.56 | sjansen | You know there's a problem when you catch yourself asking "would it be ethical to work on my resume on the clock." Incidentally, the immedate reply was "yes." |
| 16:21.00 | sjansen | s/yes/no/ |
| 16:21.49 | Jayce^ | heh |
| 16:26.09 | sjansen | I've been assigned to tune the web server. Never mind that most likely a tiny fraction of the time is spent in the web server proper parsing requests and shuttling bits. |
| 16:27.40 | Hanuman | My client I'm doing work for wants me to send out 6000 "opt-in" e-mails for him and write some tracking code within a week. I'm trying to decide if it's ethical to take the money and do it or not. |
| 16:27.53 | Tenebram | ack! |
| 16:28.18 | Hanuman | It is money to feed the kids, but is it ethical? |
| 16:28.28 | Hanuman | They are supposedly "opt-in" e-mails |
| 16:28.55 | Tenebram | Oh, if they're Opt-In then it's okay. |
| 16:29.47 | Tenebram | Is it something that you'd believe 6000 people would want to recieve? |
| 16:30.34 | Hanuman | I'm not sure - I don't know what it is yet - I'm sure it's not Viagra prescriptions or porn or anything, but I'll have to get more info on that |
| 16:30.50 | Hanuman | My immediate answer would be no if it were one of the above |
| 16:31.26 | sjansen | Hanuman: Do you mean they've already opted-in, or they'll be given the chance to opt-in? |
| 16:31.33 | Hanuman | Most of this guy's clients are legitimate businesses with their own customer base |
| 16:31.46 | Hanuman | sjansen: they've already opted-in, from what I'm told |
| 16:32.30 | Tenebram | Curse that viagra spam! |
| 16:32.33 | Tenebram | I get 3-4 a day |
| 16:33.11 | Hanuman | I'm now starting to get lip-enhancement spam. You know how I want my lips fuller - just what I've always wanted |
| 16:33.14 | sjansen | If they've already opted-in, I don't see a problem with it. If you're uncomfortable with it, you might asking for a statement of such in writing (if you don't consider that dangerously insulting). |
| 16:33.39 | Hanuman | Yeah - I'll probably just double-check that with him in advance |
| 16:34.22 | Hanuman | I almost got into a contract with a guy that wanted to advertise his "store" on the web, and when he sent me docs about it, it turned out to be a trans-gender apparel store |
| 16:34.24 | *** join/#utah neybar_work (~jalance@208.187.199.250) |
| 16:34.24 | sjansen | Just remind him that you're not only worried about ethics, but also the impression he will be giving his customers. |
| 16:35.03 | sjansen | For example, if he wants web bugs embedded in the email, explain why that'll create a bad impression. |
| 16:35.26 | Hanuman | I'll make sure I do that. What do you mean by "web bugs"? |
| 16:35.49 | Tenebram | I was wondering that as well |
| 16:36.35 | sjansen | http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_bug |
| 16:36.50 | neybar_work | Hanuman: web bugs enable people to track email usage |
| 16:37.01 | Tenebram | 'kay |
| 16:37.17 | neybar_work | very spammy |
| 16:37.30 | neybar_work | ...I wouldn't know anything about it... |
| 16:37.33 | sjansen | Not just email usage. They were, of course, first introduced on the web. |
| 16:37.45 | Hanuman | what's wrong with those? they just track who viewed an e-mail |
| 16:37.55 | sjansen | Impression. Makes you look like spam. |
| 16:37.56 | neybar_work | right, but you mentioned web bugs in email, so I addressed that issue :-) |
| 16:38.06 | Hanuman | but every retail site out there uses them. |
| 16:38.42 | sjansen | Who cares how many people click on the email? What matters is how many take an action as a result. Include a link where they can find out more information if interested. |
| 16:39.23 | sjansen | Plus, of course, you're numbers are going to be skewed. Especially if you go after a technical crowd. I've got all images turned off in my email client. |
| 16:39.51 | Hanuman | Yeah, but you want to know who is viewing your e-mails, so you can remove those people that aren't viewing them. |
| 16:40.05 | sjansen | The only real reason to include a web bug is to verify a valid address--so you can spam it some more. |
| 16:40.12 | neybar_work | exactly |
| 16:40.17 | Jayce^ | kmail doesn't allow cookies, (and you have to manually turn on the html anyways) |
| 16:40.44 | sjansen | Cookies in email?! That should be a given that it's disabled! |
| 16:40.53 | neybar_work | but marketers don't care about kmail users, it is the OE users they want... |
| 16:41.11 | hans | tensai: I want to hear how it turns out! |
| 16:41.35 | Hanuman | I don't think it's an invasion of privacy if it's current customers who have opted into receiving e-mails. And most customers aren't going to be using kmail. |
| 16:41.48 | sjansen | neybar_work: _Mass_ marketers. 6000 users is hardly a mass market. That where knowing and targeting your audience is important. |
| 16:42.45 | neybar_work | I missed the 6000 part |
| 16:43.23 | sjansen | Hanuman: Why worry about removing people that aren't viewing them. Maybe the subject of a particular message didn't interest them, but they opted-in because future messages might. Let them self select as to whether or not they will recieve the message. |
| 16:44.32 | sjansen | If you are a legitmate business, treating your customers fairly, you don't need to treat them like opponents. It doesn't cost much more to send 6000 messages than it does for 5000. |
| 16:44.48 | Hanuman | sjansen: yes, but if a certain percent of your viewers aren't ever viewing the e-mails, it makes no sense to keep them in your list - that is the advantage to using e-mails vs. other methods of advertising. |
| 16:45.26 | neybar_work | Hanuman: are you sending HTML only emails? |
| 16:45.43 | Hanuman | Not just that, but knowing that statistics of who actually viewed the e-mails, and of those that actually viewed the e-mails, how many purchased, you get a more accurate statistic |
| 16:45.55 | tensai | hans: I'll keep you posted |
| 16:46.08 | Hanuman | neybar_work: no, and the text e-mails won't give the most accurate statistics |
| 16:46.50 | neybar_work | so unless you intend on not marketing to text only viewers you aren't going to have an accurate count anyway |
| 16:46.50 | Hanuman | But the statistics of who viewed the e-mails vs those that purchased are usually a pretty-good estimate as to how successful an e-mail campaign is |
| 16:48.20 | neybar_work | using web bugs as a stat counter is going to be fairly accurate, but using them to determine if you are going to send an email to a particular target can be a little risky |
| 16:50.07 | Hanuman | neybar_work: I realize that - my point was to show some of the uses for it and how it can't really hurt the customer themselves |
| 16:50.48 | Hanuman | The only bugs that hurt the customers are those that install software on their computers to track their viewing habits - that, to me is an invasion of privacy. |
| 16:52.36 | neybar_work | as a side note to web bugs, if you are going to use them be prepared to handle complaints and bogus traffic because of them. |
| 16:53.07 | Hanuman | We use them in our e-mails at cwdkids and haven't had a single complaint from what I know |
| 16:54.04 | Hanuman | They've actually proven to be very successful at helping us to improve the e-mails we send to customers, and have brought in quite a bit of business for us |
| 16:55.06 | Hanuman | true, they aren't completely accurate, but accurate enough to help us improve the sales of what we send out to customers |
| 16:55.14 | *** join/#utah jsmith (~jsmith@209.180.83.78) |
| 16:56.37 | Hanuman | Now as for my own personal preferences, to protect against things other than simple traffic-counters I turn off images in my e-mail clients, but I don't care if people track whether I view their e-mail or not. |
| 16:57.07 | Hanuman | I turn the images on for the e-mails I want to read. |
| 16:58.00 | Hanuman | But I agree, sometimes you may have a few complaints by putting trackable-images in e-mails. |
| 17:00.09 | jsmith | Nope, no news... |
| 17:04.28 | Hanuman | IE is the most flawed piece of software ever written IMNSHO |
| 17:05.38 | Tenebram | I've written more flawed software before. |
| 17:06.05 | Hanuman | hehe |
| 17:06.12 | Hanuman | I guess I have too |
| 17:07.00 | Hanuman | I guess I should change my statement to "IE is the most flawed piece of software ever written by a multi-billion-dollar company" |
| 17:07.26 | tensai | Hanuman: you like Muppet music, right? |
| 17:07.57 | Hanuman | yeah |
| 17:09.22 | neybar_work | "piggy-pudding? no Figgy pudding. It's made with figs.... and bacon" |
| 17:12.36 | neybar_work | ^ Muppet rendition of "we wish you a merry christmas". |
| 17:15.15 | Hanuman | lovely - my wife has morning sickness AND the flu now |
| 17:15.15 | Hanuman | This is going to be a fun 3 mos |
| 17:19.16 | *** join/#utah bartw (~bart@debian.provo.novell.com) |
| 17:23.27 | Jayce^ | http://www.kingfeatures.com/features/comics/fastrack/about.htm |
| 17:26.40 | sjansen | emcnabb: ping |
| 17:26.59 | Hanuman | I think I have to have my eyes checked after looking at Windows screens all day (seriously) |
| 17:27.25 | neybar_work | Hanuman: no kidding, me too |
| 17:27.45 | Hanuman | I seriously find myself squinting at the screen at times |
| 17:28.05 | Hanuman | I've had several people catch me with my head up to the monitor w/o me even noticing |
| 17:40.06 | *** join/#utah neybar (~jalance@dsl233.sisna.com) |
| 17:51.48 | *** join/#utah Wiggy (Wiggy@c-67-162-186-180.client.comcast.net) |
| 17:59.34 | Hanuman | any of you ever have one of those days when everything just seems to break at the same time? |
| 18:00.10 | hans | I've never been in a major earthquake, no. |
| 18:00.19 | jsmith | Hanuman: Yes, and it's always on Monday... |
| 18:00.28 | jsmith | That's why I'm in IT... |
| 18:07.13 | Hanuman | jsmith: yeah - why is that? |
| 18:08.06 | jsmith | So that I can fix other peoples problems when everything breaks at once, especially when it's inconvenient... :-) |
| 18:11.03 | Bradipo | As long as they don't think it's your problem that's alright. :-) |
| 18:12.26 | jsmith | Oh, they *do* think it's my problem... |
| 18:16.38 | sjansen | I like being in IT when everything goes belly up and it's not my problem. Just sit back, watch, and laugh. |
| 18:20.08 | jsmith | Naw, IT really isn't that bad... I'd hate to be in HR or Operations... |
| 18:22.58 | Hanuman | yeah |
| 18:25.00 | *** join/#utah brailsmt (~michael@c-24-10-177-187.client.comcast.net) |
| 18:26.35 | *** join/#utah HarleyPig (~JS@65.105.156.40) |
| 18:28.26 | Hanuman | crap |
| 18:29.47 | hans | http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/12/06/2322222&mode=thread&tid=126&tid=134&tid=156 |
| 18:30.33 | emcnabb | brailsmt, I though you were done |
| 18:31.53 | brailsmt | emcnabb: oh, so close to being done... |
| 18:32.58 | brailsmt | i just need to get case statements and nested function calls written for my 431 compiler and I am done with one class, then i have to write a paper for another class... but i am just so trunky... :) |
| 18:33.06 | hans | which is the last day of class? |
| 18:33.28 | hans | i think either thurs or friday |
| 18:33.35 | jsmith | Any I the only non-student in here? |
| 18:33.36 | hans | I know there's no classes next week, and there is class wednesday |
| 18:33.36 | brailsmt | i think th or f |
| 18:33.45 | hans | jsmith: no |
| 18:34.02 | brailsmt | Jayce^ is a non-student |
| 18:34.13 | hans | bradipo, jayce, harleypig, and others |
| 18:34.15 | hans | not to mention ibot |
| 18:34.17 | brailsmt | i will probably still hang around here after i have moved to MO |
| 18:34.22 | brailsmt | lol, ibot... |
| 18:34.31 | hans | brailsmt: just be careful that hanging out here doesn't dry your eyes out |
| 18:34.42 | Bradipo | I'm a student, just not in school right now. :-) |
| 18:34.45 | Hanuman | jsmith: I am kind of, well, school isn't my first priority right now although I'm still trying to graduate |
| 18:35.05 | Hanuman | that's why I just remembered my final |
| 18:35.10 | brailsmt | i feel much the same as Hanuman :) |
| 18:35.19 | jsmith | ibot *needs* to go to school... |
| 18:35.22 | | jsmith: are you using Windows? |
| 18:35.35 | jsmith | ibot: Hell no! |
| 18:35.38 | | ACTION stabs no! with a pitchfork and dips him in flames |
| 18:35.38 | brailsmt | SCO |
| 18:35.48 | hans | lol |
| 18:35.55 | hans | that's a new one |
| 18:35.56 | brailsmt | :) |
| 18:35.57 | Hanuman | I pretend to be a non-student - I hate the term "student". I work full-time and support my family so I just pretend I'm not a student sometimes. |
| 18:36.35 | sjansen | thursday is the last day at BYU |
| 18:37.00 | Wiggy-Studying | I've got my last exam for the semester in a little over an hour |
| 18:37.06 | Wiggy-Studying | Kinda stressin' about it |
| 18:38.20 | hans | Wiggy-Studying: you can do it! chariots of fire! yeah! |
| 18:38.23 | hans | rocky! |
| 18:38.41 | brailsmt | eye of the tiger |
| 18:38.45 | Wiggy-Studying | This class was my easiest class, 'til about a month ago, when nothing started making sense |
| 18:38.46 | brailsmt | ;) |
| 18:38.47 | Wiggy-Studying | Yar :| |
| 18:39.51 | hans | what class? |
| 18:39.57 | Wiggy-Studying | Linear Algebra |
| 18:40.34 | hans | well when you get it figured out, we need to do a mind-meld or something. I'd like to understand it. As it is I remember bits and pieces |
| 18:41.04 | Wiggy-Studying | I get lost somewhere around rowspace and column space |
| 18:41.18 | brailsmt | i raelly liked linear algebra, but it turned me off to a Math minor... to abstract, and not in the CS definition of abstract :) |
| 18:41.36 | brailsmt | s/to/too |
| 18:41.45 | brailsmt | i like the CS definition of abstract |
| 18:42.03 | brailsmt | if i remember right i got an A in math 343 |
| 18:42.07 | Wiggy-Studying | I also prefer CS's abstract |
| 18:42.21 | hans | ick. I got my lowest grade in college in 343 |
| 18:42.24 | Wiggy-Studying | I need an A in this class |
| 18:42.37 | brailsmt | then walked out of the final and promptly forgot everything... :) |
| 18:43.09 | brailsmt | well at least everything from eigenvalues until the end of the semester... |
| 18:43.20 | levi | I think 343 is one of those classes I never finished. |
| 18:43.23 | brailsmt | i still don't know what an eigenvalue means... |
| 18:43.39 | brailsmt | but i sure did know how to calculate them.. |
| 18:43.52 | brailsmt | emphasis on *did* |
| 18:43.54 | brailsmt | :) |
| 18:43.55 | Wiggy-Studying | Ick, eigenvalues |
| 18:44.07 | hans | which kernel config for xeon? |
| 18:44.32 | brailsmt | make menuconfig -- works on any arch (with ncurses) :) |
| 18:44.52 | hans | Processor family (386, 486, 586/K5/5x86/6x86/6x86MX, Pentium-Classic, Pentium-MMX, Pentium-Pro/Celeron/Pentium-II, Pentium-III/Celeron(Coppermine), Pentium-4, K6/K6-II/K6-III, Athlon/Duron/K7, Opteron/Athlon64/Hammer/K8, Elan, Crusoe, Winchip-C6, Winchip-2, Winchip-2A/Winchip-3, CyrixIII/VIA-C3, VIA-C3-2) [Pentium-III/Celeron(Coppermine)] |
| 18:45.16 | hans | p4? |
| 18:45.18 | brailsmt | my guess is p3 |
| 18:45.36 | brailsmt | maybe even p2, but either way, p2 would work :) |
| 18:45.55 | brailsmt | 2.4 kernel? |
| 18:46.14 | hans | yeah |
| 18:46.42 | hans | this is a xeon 1.7 Ghz, I doubt it would be p2 |
| 18:46.44 | brailsmt | do 'cat /proc/cpuinfo' |
| 18:46.56 | hans | vendor_id : GenuineIntel |
| 18:46.57 | hans | cpu family : 15 |
| 18:46.57 | hans | model : 1 |
| 18:46.57 | hans | model name : Intel(R) Xeon(TM) CPU 1.70GHz |
| 18:47.12 | jsmith | Yeah, use Pentium-4... |
| 18:48.35 | brailsmt | in 2.6 config there is a xeon entry for both p4 and p3... |
| 18:48.55 | brailsmt | if this is for the machine i thinnk it is for, p3 is gonna be the right choice |
| 18:49.56 | brailsmt | p3 coppermine... |
| 18:49.56 | hans | phantom |
| 18:50.09 | brailsmt | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:50.12 | brailsmt | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:50.15 | brailsmt | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:50.18 | brailsmt | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:50.21 | brailsmt | from 2.6 config... |
| 18:50.25 | brailsmt | wow, that was formatted badly |
| 18:50.26 | brailsmt | :) |
| 18:50.53 | brailsmt | i guess copy/paste from ncurses will do that... |
| 19:08.13 | bonez39 | quick couple questions... |
| 19:08.37 | jsmith | bonez39: Shoot... |
| 19:08.42 | brailsmt | bang |
| 19:08.51 | bonez39 | 1) what do you you all use for file management? I am trying to move an .mp3 file, and I can't figure out what it's name is....to mv it... |
| 19:09.20 | jsmith | bonez39: the "find" utility under Linux is your friend... "locate" isn't half-bad either, and is easier to learn |
| 19:09.26 | brailsmt | i use the cli for most everything... for really heavy duty file moving/etc... i use mc |
| 19:09.50 | hans | bonez39: if you're using kde or gnome, their built-in file managers are pretty good. otherwise I have found filerunner (fr) to be a good friend |
| 19:09.51 | bonez39 | ok, not locating, but I want to move the files around..want something like File Manager..but can't figure out where it on my system here.. |
| 19:09.58 | jsmith | Ooooh... mc. I haven't used that in years! |
| 19:10.02 | hans | tab completion is generally sufficient for me. :) |
| 19:10.09 | jsmith | bonez39: Oh, I see... are you using Gnome or KDE? |
| 19:10.20 | bonez39 | gnome2.2 |
| 19:10.21 | brailsmt | gmc is gnome's gui verson of mc |
| 19:10.30 | jsmith | bonez39: use "nautilus" |
| 19:10.43 | jsmith | brailsmt: gmc sucks... |
| 19:10.47 | brailsmt | hans: rm -rf * is a lot safer when done in the realm of mc :) |
| 19:10.57 | bonez39 | jsmith: just 'nautilus' at a prompt? |
| 19:10.57 | hans | mc is a ui nightmare. :) |
| 19:11.02 | brailsmt | jsmith: i didn't say i use it, just that it exists :) |
| 19:11.09 | hans | hence, fr or whatever is built into your desktop |
| 19:11.32 | hans | I would like to use nautilus but starting up gnome is out of the question (and very annoying when something tries to start gnome on top of windowmaker) |
| 19:11.38 | jsmith | Do you have a shortcut on your desktop that says "bonez39's Home" or something like that... |
| 19:11.43 | brailsmt | bah, mc is just fine for a ui, imo |
| 19:11.59 | hans | ~lart tui file managers |
| 19:12.27 | brailsmt | jsmith: it got rewritten... again |
| 19:12.28 | brailsmt | :) |
| 19:12.46 | brailsmt | along with the rest of E |
| 19:12.50 | jsmith | Again... |
| 19:12.54 | jsmith | Figures... |
| 19:12.59 | brailsmt | i don't know... |
| 19:13.03 | brailsmt | but it sounded funny |
| 19:13.12 | jsmith | Rasterman went into hiding, mandrake moved on to other things... |
| 19:13.25 | brailsmt | since E has a history of rewrites... as if the authors had never heard of refactoring... :) |
| 19:13.50 | brailsmt | E was always way to big for me to run... |
| 19:14.41 | levi | And when fvwm95 was a big deal. |
| 19:14.53 | brailsmt | i remember kde 0.9 |
| 19:14.56 | hans | heh |
| 19:14.57 | brailsmt | man was it ugly |
| 19:15.20 | brailsmt | i remember kernel 2.2 too |
| 19:15.31 | levi | And then there were the modified athena widgets with 3d-look. |
| 19:15.45 | levi | I remember Linux before RedHat. |
| 19:15.48 | brailsmt | ahh, the good ole days |
| 19:15.52 | levi | And pre-1.0 kernels. |
| 19:15.58 | jsmith | I actually moved from SCO and Irix to Linux... |
| 19:16.24 | jsmith | levi: Well, you got me beat on the Linux stuff... but I did play around with XENIX for a while... |
| 19:16.55 | brailsmt | anyway /me has to go revise this paper for the 5pm deadline... |
| 19:17.32 | levi | I had an account on what I think was an AIX-running PC for about a year before I got Linux on my own computer. |
| 19:18.04 | levi | I went looking for books on the internet in the bookstore. There were something like 2 or 3 of them. |
| 19:18.28 | jsmith | Yeah, AIX was fun... sort of... I still prefer IRIX to AIX or SCO-Unix or HPUX though... |
| 19:18.49 | levi | I used gopher all the time. |
| 19:18.55 | levi | And archie. |
| 19:19.46 | jsmith | Ahh... the good ol' days... using archie over a 2400 baud modem... |
| 19:20.05 | levi | I think I had a 14.4k modem at that point. |
| 19:20.19 | *** join/#utah byron (~byron@128.187.90.132) |
| 19:20.24 | levi | Since I'd been doing the BBS thing for a couple of years. |
| 19:21.15 | levi | All the BBS people were leaving for this 'internet' thing, where there were no ul/dl ratios... |
| 19:21.52 | levi | And you could email anyone else that was using it, anywhere in the world! |
| 19:22.17 | levi | It helped that there was a free public-access internet service. |
| 19:22.27 | levi | I got an account on it, dialed up, and got a shell prompt. |
| 19:22.31 | levi | I had no idea what to do with it. |
| 19:23.17 | jsmith | No kidding... I remember doing that sort of thing from my Commodore 64 with a 300 baud modem... people thought I was nuts! |
| 19:23.29 | levi | A guy I knew got me a korn shell book, I got one of the 3 internet books from the bookstore, and then I was off! |
| 19:23.47 | levi | My sysop friend felt kind of betrayed by the internet thing, but oh well. Technology marches on! |
| 19:25.18 | jsmith | Yes, it does... some day our grandchildren are going to say "internet? That's ancient!" |
| 19:25.28 | brailsmt | that was like 16 years ago though |
| 19:25.32 | jsmith | brailsmt... Ahhh... tradewars! |
| 19:25.49 | brailsmt | and there was no such thing as a trade wars helper |
| 19:26.56 | neybar_work | speaking of which I have a BBS running. There is a nice game of LORD going. |
| 19:27.04 | neybar_work | telnet to thelances.net |
| 19:27.50 | brailsmt | lord? |
| 19:28.03 | Jayce^ | legend of the red dragon |
| 19:30.22 | brailsmt | the Greater Kansas City SysOp Organization (my old BBS stomping grounds) is still kicking around, though they are mostly sys admins now... |
| 19:30.53 | brailsmt | i remember printing up a list of BBSs and dialing them each in turn until I found one that suited me... I would do that every week or so... |
| 19:31.00 | brailsmt | good ole qmodem |
| 19:31.13 | Jayce^ | TSCNet was my main bbs back in WA |
| 19:31.16 | brailsmt | and then there was the zmodem d/l protocol |
| 19:31.32 | Jayce^ | z,y,x :) |
| 19:31.39 | brailsmt | it was *much* faster than any of the others... |
| 19:31.46 | brailsmt | and good ole .arc files |
| 19:32.05 | Jayce^ | I forget which protocol it was, but one came out I remember that allowed for a chat to occur during the transfer.. |
| 19:32.07 | brailsmt | ahh, the good ole days |
| 19:32.56 | hans | zmodem I think |
| 19:32.57 | brailsmt | i went even went to a GKCSOO meeting at a denny's with my dad when I was in 6th grade :) |
| 19:33.34 | brailsmt | ATDT 1234567 |
| 19:33.36 | brailsmt | :) |
| 19:33.49 | brailsmt | me too |
| 19:33.52 | brailsmt | ATZ |
| 19:33.59 | brailsmt | modems still speak it :) |
| 19:33.59 | hans | I could even set the registers for things like dial speed and whatnot |
| 19:34.21 | brailsmt | i was pretty much a casual user just on for the games... |
| 19:34.29 | brailsmt | i never messed with the stuff like that... |
| 19:34.58 | brailsmt | i thought the whole email thing was stupid and a waste of time... |
| 19:35.00 | hans | ok folks, which is better: NVidia/SGS Thomson Riva128 or 3Dfx Voodoo 3 |
| 19:35.07 | brailsmt | :) |
| 19:35.22 | Jayce^ | hans the riva will have more compatibility with modern drivers, etc.. |
| 19:35.36 | Jayce^ | the voodoo's are gone |
| 19:35.42 | hans | well, the voodoo works fine. just trying to decide whether to switch it out for the riva128 |
| 19:36.00 | Jayce^ | don't fix what isn't broke :) |
| 19:36.10 | hans | well, it is broke - it doesn't drive my big monitor :) |
| 19:36.15 | Jayce^ | ah.. |
| 19:36.19 | hans | if the riva would do that, it would fix. |
| 19:36.43 | hans | 1280x1024 at at least 15bit |
| 19:36.47 | hans | 24 would be better |
| 19:36.56 | Hanuman | bonez39: I use bash for file management |
| 19:38.48 | Jayce^ | how much memory on each card? |
| 19:39.24 | brailsmt | bonez39: oh yeah, I find myself using ruby for file management tasks about as much as I use mc nowadays |
| 19:39.31 | hans | looks like the riva has 16m, the voodoo3 has 32 (according to lspci) |
| 19:39.49 | hans | but the ati which drives my big monitor (no accel) has only 16 according to lspci |
| 19:40.04 | hans | so I'm confused. maybe the voodoo will drive it but not accelerated... I don't recall |
| 19:40.10 | Jayce^ | both should be able to drive the monitor at 1280 then |
| 19:40.45 | hans | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:40.56 | hans | what does [disabled] mean here? is that because the card is inactive? (it is) |
| 19:41.36 | Jayce^ | I'd guess.. :/ |
| 19:41.56 | hans | actually 32 is necessary for 24 bit (but 15/16 is ok; that's what I run now) |
| 19:42.18 | Jayce^ | right |
| 19:44.19 | brailsmt | wait, i mean :( |
| 19:44.24 | brailsmt | :) |
| 19:45.34 | hans | so the question is, does this riva have some limitation to doing accelerated at 1280x1024 like my voodoo3 does? |
| 19:46.28 | Hanuman | bonez39: perl is better than ruby - perl -e is your friend ;-P |
| 19:46.59 | brailsmt | perl -e? |
| 19:47.12 | brailsmt | ruby -e |
| 19:47.21 | brailsmt | or better yet: ib |
| 19:47.24 | brailsmt | argh... |
| 19:47.26 | brailsmt | irb |
| 19:47.31 | Hanuman | is ruby -e too? |
| 19:48.06 | brailsmt | [michael]$ ruby -e "puts 'Hello World'" |
| 19:48.06 | brailsmt | Hello World |
| 19:48.45 | Hanuman | echo "Hello World" |
| 19:48.48 | Hanuman | Hello World |
| 19:49.12 | Hanuman | ruby uses puts? |
| 19:49.13 | brailsmt | yeah, yeah, just an example of ruby -e, not the best way to print Hello World... |
| 19:49.19 | hans | oh I know - " hardware acceleration is only supported at 16bpp on the Voodoo 3 and the Banshee." |
| 19:49.23 | brailsmt | Hanuman: or print or just p |
| 19:49.34 | Hanuman | okay, okay |
| 19:49.37 | brailsmt | p is for debug though |
| 19:49.40 | hans | and for some reason I couldn't get it to work at 16bpp. |
| 19:49.48 | Hanuman | Perl doesn't have p - that's nice |
| 19:50.12 | brailsmt | perl doesn't irb either... |
| 19:50.15 | brailsmt | and its a shame... |
| 19:50.19 | brailsmt | :) |
| 19:50.47 | brailsmt | i use irb as my calculator now, and its perfect for file mgmnt stuff too |
| 19:50.50 | byron | irb is handy |
| 19:50.56 | sjansen | Speaking of different ways to print... any Applesoft Basic programmers here? |
| 19:51.36 | sjansen | I was weirded out the day I discovered "? Hello World" translated to "print Hello World" -- that wasn't documented. Discovered by typo. |
| 19:51.38 | zzzirk | whoa |
| 19:51.43 | brailsmt | and ri is erally cool too |
| 19:51.50 | zzzirk | yes, ? was a synonym for print |
| 19:53.45 | Hanuman | sounds like pascal |
| 19:53.59 | Hanuman | what does irb do? |
| 19:54.39 | brailsmt | irb(main):001:0> print [1,2,3,4] |
| 19:54.39 | brailsmt | 1234=> nil |
| 19:54.39 | brailsmt | irb(main):002:0> puts [1,2,3,4] |
| 19:54.39 | brailsmt | 1 |
| 19:54.39 | brailsmt | 2 |
| 19:54.41 | brailsmt | 3 |
| 19:54.43 | brailsmt | 4 |
| 19:54.46 | brailsmt | => nil |
| 19:54.48 | brailsmt | irb(main):003:0> p [1,2,3,4] |
| 19:54.51 | brailsmt | [1, 2, 3, 4] |
| 19:54.55 | brailsmt | interactive ruby interpreter |
| 19:55.17 | brailsmt | lets you type code and see its output immediately |
| 19:55.36 | byron | also handy because it shows the return value separately |
| 19:55.53 | brailsmt | yeah the return value is after the '=>' on the example above... |
| 19:57.41 | sjansen | Kinda like python, it's a true shell. |
| 19:58.14 | Hanuman | okay - that would be handy in debugging |
| 19:59.00 | Hanuman | reminds me of basic in some ways |
| 19:59.12 | brailsmt | python's version of irb is anemic compared to irb... |
| 20:00.34 | hans | ~lart DRI's new wiki format |
| 20:01.04 | byron | ~lart wikis |
| 20:03.22 | sjansen | Used properly, wikis are wonderfully simple and functional. |
| 20:03.30 | brailsmt | wiki's have their place, but not as the main webpage of something like DRI |
| 20:03.35 | byron | that's the key: 'used properly' |
| 20:03.58 | brailsmt | of course I just jumped to about 100 conclusions there... |
| 20:04.04 | brailsmt | :) |
| 20:04.30 | hans | their site was simple, functional, and navigable before they made it into a lame wiki. before sjansen chops off my head, I like wikis when used properly |
| 20:28.56 | sjansen | You know, J2EE stinks. But Tomcat is cool. |
| 20:28.59 | Hanuman | sjansen is a traitor - RMS hater ;-) |
| 20:29.10 | hans | "Please note that the RIVA 128/128ZX chips are supported by the open |
| 20:29.10 | hans | source 'nv' driver for XFree86, but not by the NVIDIA Accelerated Linux |
| 20:29.11 | hans | Driver Set." |
| 20:32.46 | hans | tell me again how voodoo cards are dead? |
| 20:34.54 | brailsmt | they were murder in the dining room by Colonel Mustard |
| 20:34.55 | neybar_work | not dead, but dying. course it also depends on how you are using it |
| 20:35.01 | brailsmt | :) |
| 20:35.26 | brailsmt | with the canldestick... bludgeoned to death |
| 20:35.39 | hans | no doubt they're dead, but thanks to opensource they still work. contrast the riva128 (if you're looking for 3d accel) |
| 20:35.46 | jsmith | I thought it was Miss Scarlet in the parlor with the rope... |
| 20:35.52 | brailsmt | i bet that has some cool FXs with the new Clue FX |
| 20:36.40 | neybar_work | which is a real bummer, cause I still like voodoo. my voodoo 5500 was a most excellent card |
| 20:44.25 | Hanuman | mmm...nothing like Pearl Jam's "Ten" |
| 20:52.20 | Jayce^ | very good album |
| 21:00.02 | Jayce^ | cool, just had another company ask me if it would be ok to advertise some job openings on the list :) |
| 21:00.11 | Jayce^ | gee, let me think about that.. |
| 21:00.45 | sjansen | Maybe we should start charging them for the service. ;-) |
| 21:00.57 | Jayce^ | hehe |
| 21:01.03 | jsmith | Hmmmn... job openings? |
| 21:01.10 | Jayce^ | yeah.. |
| 21:01.32 | Jayce^ | too large ? :D |
| 21:01.41 | Jayce^ | wouldnt' that suck :) |
| 21:02.17 | sjansen | All those taxes. |
| 21:09.15 | Hanuman | when I know the economy has recovered is when I start having recruiters calling me asking me to relocate for a job again |
| 21:09.36 | Hanuman | Those were the days... |
| 21:09.45 | jsmith | Jayce^: My problem is that there's always too much month at the end of the money... |
| 21:09.53 | jsmith | Hanuman: I know the feeling... |
| 21:09.58 | Jayce^ | jsmith, amen |
| 21:10.07 | jsmith | Hanuman: Not only that, but my wife's egging me trying to get me to move to Virginia |
| 21:10.23 | Hanuman | lol - my wife's agging me to move to Utah |
| 21:10.47 | jsmith | Hanuman: Where you at? |
| 21:10.56 | Hanuman | Richmond |
| 21:11.07 | Hanuman | Northern VA has more jobs, but more traffic, too |
| 21:11.15 | Hanuman | and more expensive |
| 21:11.24 | jsmith | Hanuman: I was just there over Thanksgiving... |
| 21:11.40 | jsmith | Hanuman: Went to see Williamsburg, Jamestown, etc... and yes, I95 is a mess |
| 21:12.50 | Hanuman | I've got season tickets to Williamsburg |
| 21:15.29 | tensai | season tickets? do they fight other colonial towns on Saturdays? |
| 21:15.33 | jsmith | Yeah, I just about bought them... it's only like $10 more... |
| 21:15.36 | sjansen | Anyone have experience with Covalent's apache? |
| 21:15.44 | jsmith | sjansen: No, thank goodness. |
| 21:18.09 | Hanuman | tensai: yeah - Williamsburg and Jamestown go to war every Saturday |
| 21:18.26 | Hanuman | jsmith: it's kind of nice - we've gone a couple times this year - went on 4th of July - very fun |
| 21:18.36 | Hanuman | We're thinking of going again around Christmas time |
| 21:18.41 | Hanuman | Our kids really like it, too |
| 21:18.48 | jsmith | Yeah, we had a great time... |
| 21:19.02 | Hanuman | My wife is a historian as well so she really enjoys it |
| 21:19.03 | jsmith | We found out one of our ancestors was in the House of Burgesses there... |
| 21:19.21 | Hanuman | That's cool - I don't have any revolutionary ancestors from what I know |
| 21:19.38 | Hanuman | I might be related to John Adams, but that's debateable |
| 21:20.07 | Hanuman | Well, I have ancestors that came on the Mayflower I guess |
| 21:20.10 | jsmith | Well, this is through my wife... |
| 21:20.29 | jsmith | With a name like Smith, I'm probably related to the entire world... |
| 21:20.36 | Hanuman | No kidding |
| 21:20.57 | Hanuman | Stay is pretty popular in England, but that's about it |
| 21:21.31 | Hanuman | Everyone w/ the last name Stay in the US is most likely a cousin of mine |
| 21:22.10 | hans | jsmith: I thought your last name was Jsmith?! |
| 21:27.11 | Jayce^ | almost nobody with the last name of hall in the us is a cousin of mine.. |
| 21:27.50 | Jayce^ | and none in norway |
| 21:31.08 | sjansen | Are you claiming your family sprang from the mind of Zeus? (Or Odin, as the case may be?) |
| 21:31.13 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 21:31.18 | Jayce^ | basically.. |
| 21:31.40 | Jayce^ | great grandfather changed his last name when he came over |
| 21:42.02 | *** join/#utah kip (~kip@67.50.41.115) |
| 21:42.12 | Jayce^ | lo kip |
| 21:42.27 | lukfugl | sorry, forgot about the nick |
| 21:42.54 | Jayce^ | heh |
| 21:43.28 | lukfugl | I've got some weird symptoms on our live database server and was wondering if any of you have any insights |
| 21:43.43 | Jayce^ | mysql? |
| 21:43.45 | Jayce^ | pg? |
| 21:43.57 | lukfugl | mysql |
| 21:44.04 | Jayce^ | k, symptoms? |
| 21:44.15 | lukfugl | everything seems to serve up correct, it's just super dang slow. |
| 21:44.17 | Jayce^ | version, gcc version, platform.. |
| 21:44.22 | Hanuman | Our name used to be Stoy |
| 21:44.36 | Hanuman | Jayce^: I've got a runny nose |
| 21:45.08 | Jayce^ | Hanuman, you have dementia :) |
| 21:45.35 | lukfugl | mysql: Ver 11.15 Distrib 3.23.44, for pc-linux-gnu (i686) |
| 21:45.48 | lukfugl | gcc: 3.2.2 |
| 21:46.08 | lukfugl | platform: redhat -- probably 7.?, how do I check? |
| 21:46.12 | Jayce^ | mm, use 4 :) |
| 21:46.17 | Jayce^ | cat /proc/version |
| 21:46.28 | Jayce^ | what table types? all myisam? |
| 21:46.56 | jsmith | lukfugl: Learn how to use indices? Don't put more than a million records in a table? I'm just guessing here... |
| 21:47.15 | lukfugl | platform: Linux version 2.4.9-31.2RSsmp, RH 7.1 2.96-98 |
| 21:47.23 | bartw | anyone here have Utopia or iProvo? |
| 21:48.05 | jsmith | bartw: I wish... (at least, with the Utopia thing) |
| 21:48.45 | lukfugl | jsmith: agreed, but that's not the problem, unless there's a certain record limit where adding a few records makes a huge difference. Everything was running fine this morning and then all the sudden it all went to pot |
| 21:49.09 | hans | Tenebram: do you have an et.byu.edu address? |
| 21:49.11 | Jayce^ | lukfugl, did you have mysql crash? you need to do an optimize maybe? |
| 21:49.14 | Jayce^ | myisamchk? |
| 21:49.16 | hans | e.g. tenebram@et.byu.edu |
| 21:49.22 | jsmith | lukfugl: Well, when you add incides, your insert time goes up, in order to make your select times go down... |
| 21:49.49 | hans | if or if not, did you ever try to sign up to the uug website with one? |
| 21:50.03 | jsmith | lukfugl: On a table with a large number of records, those inserts can get painfully slow (again, depending on your indicies, number of records, etc.) |
| 21:50.58 | Jayce^ | do you have a process that is holding locks on the table? |
| 21:51.43 | lukfugl | jsmith: yes, yes, (not to sound rude) I know all that. I also know it's not the problem. All operations (inserts, selects and everything else) suddenly (as in all at once in less the 5 minutes) went up at least an order in magnitude in operation time |
| 21:52.00 | bartw | iProvo is real (same as Utopia, but not part of Utopia). iProvo is expanding slowly, however. |
| 21:52.14 | lukfugl | Jayce^: I'll try the isamchk and whatnot |
| 21:52.21 | Jayce^ | probably a good idea |
| 21:52.38 | jsmith | lukfugl: Hmmmn... that's strange... it something else on the box starving MySQL for memory? Are you running out of disk space? |
| 21:52.39 | Jayce^ | if you can, might be a good time to look at going to mysql 4.. |
| 21:53.03 | Jayce^ | key cache, memory space can effect some like that.. |
| 21:53.09 | Jayce^ | is it thrashing at all? going to swap? |
| 21:53.11 | jsmith | lukfugl: yeah, myisamchk might not be a bad idea... |
| 21:53.17 | lukfugl | but here's the really weird thing: top was (isn't now, but now the database is fast again, without my having changed it) taking >25% CPU according to itself |
| 21:54.01 | lukfugl | nope, plenty space available |
| 21:54.03 | Jayce^ | lukfugl, look for mytop (jeremy zawodony wrote it).. could be a very useful tool for you.. |
| 21:54.36 | Jayce^ | hey, I mentioned that |
| 21:54.36 | lukfugl | ooooh, it was already installed, and yes, *very* nice :) |
| 21:54.55 | Hanuman | Jayce^: what was that? I forgot what you said before... |
| 21:55.01 | Jayce^ | good way to watch what queries are taking time.. |
| 21:55.06 | Jayce^ | Hanuman, disk swap |
| 21:55.24 | Hanuman | No, about the dementia thing... ;-) |
| 21:55.26 | lukfugl | Jayce^: ok, gonna run the myisamchk now -- where do I run that from, any arguments? |
| 21:55.45 | Jayce^ | yeah.. definately read the manpage before doing it :) |
| 21:56.26 | lukfugl | "No manyal entry for myisamchk" |
| 21:58.04 | Jayce^ | http://www.mysql.com/doc/search.php?q=myisamchk&from=%2Fdoc%2Fen%2Findex.html |
| 21:58.10 | lukfugl | thx |
| 22:02.25 | lukfugl | Jayce^: do I need to stop mysqld before running the fixes? Almost every table comes back as "usable but should be fixed" when I do a check, and most are in use pretty much constantly |
| 22:03.06 | Jayce^ | yes... |
| 22:04.36 | lukfugl | ok |
| 22:04.50 | Jayce^ | obviously, if you have a lot of data, it takes a while.. |
| 22:05.04 | Jayce^ | but a repair, and an optimize can make huge speed differences.. |
| 22:05.19 | Jayce^ | this is a reason that it can be really nice to have live replication.. |
| 22:05.26 | lukfugl | but then again, they're already calling about the sluggishness anyways |
| 22:05.34 | Jayce^ | then just point to the other, take the main down, and fix it, then swap around.. |
| 22:11.33 | lukfugl | now, just out of curiosity, why would 'top' have been taking so much CPU? that's the thing I still don't understand |
| 22:12.07 | Jayce^ | regular top or mytop? |
| 22:12.13 | lukfugl | regular top |
| 22:12.24 | Jayce^ | priority fighting? out of memory? |
| 22:13.19 | lukfugl | sometimes up to 50%, always at least 25% that whole time. It's now 'only' in the 5-10% range, but on most other machines I see top only using <1.0% of the CPU |
| 22:13.37 | Jayce^ | wow.. |
| 22:13.50 | Jayce^ | how many processes' are running? |
| 22:14.08 | lukfugl | ps -fea | wc -l |
| 22:14.13 | lukfugl | gives ~200 |
| 22:15.38 | *** join/#utah synic (~synic@cpe-66-87-26-31.ut.sprintbbd.net) |
| 22:16.53 | lukfugl | -aux yields about 250 lines |
| 22:17.31 | lukfugl | ok, silly me. They're the same, I just had more processes at the time I ran -aux |
| 22:17.58 | *** part/#utah tomeast (~teastmond@63-253-57-90.ip.mcleodusa.net) |
| 22:19.06 | lukfugl | well the repair finished without problems and the DB seems to be cruisin' again. Thx for the advice |
| 22:22.01 | Jayce^ | np |
| 22:22.25 | Jayce^ | might want to attend the sllug mysql meeting to get some more ideas.. |
| 22:27.32 | Jayce^ | whee.. snowing again |
| 22:28.43 | *** join/#utah byron (~byron@byu176783wks.rn.byu.edu) |
| 22:30.12 | *** join/#utah tomeast (~teastmond@63-253-57-90.ip.mcleodusa.net) |
| 22:33.47 | hans | say, we need to figure out when to get in line |
| 22:33.52 | neybar_work | speaking of which... ditto |
| 22:34.40 | Jayce^ | somebody should call the theater and find out what they allow.. |
| 22:34.47 | Jayce^ | especially making sure we have wireless :) |
| 22:35.42 | neybar_work | I would... except I can't get to their website |
| 22:35.55 | Jayce^ | still got dns problems? |
| 22:36.14 | neybar_work | it is incredibly aggrivating, very spotty |
| 22:36.27 | Jayce^ | so set up dns at your house, and use that :) |
| 22:36.53 | neybar_work | although I'm not entirely sure that it is DNS, I am using sisnas dns and it is still happening, so it may be my connection |
| 22:37.48 | tensai | curse you hans. all this sourdough information is making me hungry. :) |
| 22:51.12 | hans | :) |
| 22:51.31 | neybar_work | does anyone know how https works? is a tunnel created between the server and client before url information is sent? |
| 22:51.45 | tensai | neybar_work: yes |
| 22:52.12 | tensai | the server certificate contains the servers domain name though |
| 22:52.28 | tensai | s/servers/server's |
| 22:56.12 | Bradipo | sjansen's email made me happy. :-) |
| 22:57.12 | Bradipo | ``In our conversation he mentioned that every millionaire he knows |
| 22:57.13 | Bradipo | is eccentric. I wonder if we don't all consider everyone with |
| 22:57.13 | Bradipo | significantly different views from our own as being eccentric.'' |
| 22:57.33 | Bradipo | This gives me hope that I have the potential to be a millionaire. :-) |
| 22:59.40 | Bradipo | Excuse me, Robert's email... |
| 23:24.11 | *** join/#utah spr5 (~spr5@auth11-2.ycell.octelecom.net) |
| 23:24.57 | spr5 | Has anyone ever had gpg just hang when trying to receive a key? |
| 23:29.25 | Jayce^ | no |
| 23:34.54 | spr5 | It's been a problem for me. Once in a while it'll work, but most of the time, nothing. Just sits there trying to get a key. for hours. |
| 23:35.36 | Jayce^ | from what server? |
| 23:35.52 | spr5 | pgp.mit.edu |
| 23:39.08 | Jayce^ | that's the one I use |
| 23:40.43 | *** part/#utah tomeast (~teastmond@63-253-57-90.ip.mcleodusa.net) |
| 23:42.11 | spr5 | I'm just not having any luck with this. oh well, I got to run to the store... |
| 23:46.57 | *** join/#utah jayce_ (~Jayce^@65.218.37.130) |
| 23:49.37 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
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