irclog2html for #utah on 20031114

`00:30.46`	`*** join/#utah jsmith (~jsmith@209.180.83.6)`
`00:47.03`	`jsmith`	`No news is good news?`
`00:47.20`	`jsmith`	`ibot just told me there's no news...`
`00:47.22`		`jsmith: I don't know, could you explain it?`
`00:48.51`	`jakea`	`autobots?`
`00:49.04`	`jakea`	`ibot, who is William Shatner`
`00:49.05`		`methinks william shatner is a terrible singer`
`00:49.07`	`jsmith`	`infobots... autobots...`
`00:49.17`	`Bradipo`	`ai bots?`
`00:49.25`	`jsmith`	`ibot, where can I get some good sushi?`
`00:49.26`		`jsmith: parse error: dunno what the heck you're talking about`
`00:49.36`	`jakea`	`ibot, who is Agent Smith`
`00:49.37`		`i guess agent smith is really not that bad, once you get to know him`
`00:49.52`	`jsmith`	`ibot, who is the president of the United States?`
`00:49.53`		`I think you lost me on that one, jsmith`
`00:50.08`	`jsmith`	`ibot, who are you?`
`00:50.12`		`extra, extra, read all about it, ibot is a blootbot now, no longer an infobot. run by BZFlag (TimRiker) on his server. see blootbot also http://blootbot.sourceforge.net/ it uses SQLite but can use MySQL or other SQL for storage.`
`00:50.15`	`jsmith`	`Ooooh... I think I confused him...`
`00:50.32`	`jsmith`	`Nope... he was just slow...`
`00:50.37`	`jakea`	`ibot, The President of the United States is a moron`
`00:50.39`		`okay, jakea`
`00:50.57`	`jsmith`	`ibot, jsmith is hungry`
`00:50.59`		`jsmith: okay`
`00:51.06`	`jsmith`	`ibot, who is jsmith`
`00:51.08`		`[jsmith] hungry`
`00:51.14`	`jsmith`	`Figures...`
`00:51.35`	`jakea`	`ibot, who is The President of the United States`
`00:51.37`		`jakea: I think you lost me on that one`
`00:52.02`	`jakea`	`ibot, what is The President of the United States`
`00:52.04`		`jakea: what are you talking about?`
`00:52.10`	`jakea`	`oh man`
`00:52.20`	`jsmith`	`See... if a bot ain't smart enough to search google, it ain't worth the bits it's made of`
`00:53.26`	`jakea`	`hmmm`
`00:53.30`	`jakea`	`~moron`
`00:53.31`		`[moron] someone that types long lines starting with "ibot"`
`00:53.42`	`jakea`	`hmmm`
`00:54.04`	`jsmith`	`ibot, how big is California?`
`00:54.05`		`jsmith: I think you lost me on that one`
`00:57.21`	`jakea`	`~help`
`00:58.56`	`jsmith`	`~food`
`00:58.57`		`from memory, food is something I huwaked up`
`01:00.44`	`neybar`	`any postgres masters awake?`
`01:01.23`	`jsmith`	`neybar: I'm just a postgres wanna-be-master... what's your question?`
`01:05.50`	`jsmith`	`Well, I guess I'll go home then...`
`01:05.56`	`jsmith`	`Catch y'all later...`
`01:06.05`	`*** part/#utah jsmith (~jsmith@209.180.83.6)`
`01:24.49`	`*** join/#utah jakea (~jakea@jakea.dsl.xmission.com)`
`01:43.30`	`*** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@c-24-2-73-224.client.comcast.net)`
`02:12.42`	`*** join/#utah torriem (~torriem@c-67-161-219-205.client.comcast.net)`
`02:13.12`	`*** part/#utah torriem (~torriem@c-67-161-219-205.client.comcast.net)`
`02:13.24`	`*** join/#utah torriem (~torriem@c-67-161-219-205.client.comcast.net)`
`02:18.22`	`hans`	`ibot, do a trick`
`02:18.23`		`hans: I'm not sure, is it larger than a breadbox?`
`02:18.31`	`hans`	`impresive`
`02:19.53`	`hans`	`~trick`
`02:19.55`		`ACTION does a double-twist backflip with a one-toe landing`
`02:26.01`	`tewk`	`what is the postgres question ?`
`03:00.14`	`*** join/#utah uugDave (~dave@c-67-164-251-222.client.comcast.net)`
`03:00.23`	`uugDave`	`Anyone here use ZoneEdit?`
`03:01.49`	`Hanuman`	`!food`
`03:02.02`	`Hanuman`	`\usr\bin\perl gets me lots of things - I like him`
`03:02.09`	`Hanuman`	`uugDave: I do`
`03:02.28`	`Hanuman`	`8-ball: will SCO lose?`
`03:02.29`	`\usr\bin\perl`	`Hanuman: 8-ball says: Most likely`
`03:03.35`	`Hanuman`	`Jayce^: did you notice the link to the broadcast was on that KSL page so it could be viewed from there?`
`03:03.46`	`uugDave`	`Hanuman: Heard of any scripts that will auto-update your IP with them in the event it changes?`
`03:03.47`	`Hanuman`	`uugDave: yo`
`03:03.59`	`uugDave`	`~ibot, slap uugDave`
`03:04.02`		`ACTION slaps uugDave, keep your grubby fingers to yourself!`
`03:04.22`	`uugDave`	`(them being ZoneEdit) :)`
`03:04.29`	`Hanuman`	`uugDave: I use wget, but I haven't looked into automatic scripts. I just do a cron with wget`
`03:04.31`	`uugDave`	`Man, I am just not making any sense :)`
`03:04.39`	`uugDave`	`What do you wget?`
`03:04.58`	`Hanuman`	`the cron is getting a bit annoying because it only runs hourly - I want something that autmatically detects when the ip changes`
`03:05.06`	`Hanuman`	`uugDave: just a sec - I'll get it for you`
`03:05.17`	`uugDave`	`Does it do http auth`
`03:05.24`	`Hanuman`	`yeah`
`03:05.30`	`uugDave`	`sweeeet.`
`03:05.50`	`Hanuman`	`I love zoneedit - haven't found anything better yet`
`03:05.59`	`uugDave`	`Indeed.`
`03:06.28`	`uugDave`	`~ibot, ZoneEdit is a great way to manage DNS for free.`
`03:06.29`		`okay, uugDave`
`03:06.53`	`Hanuman`	`"wget -q -O - --http-user=username --http-passwd=password 'http://dynamic.zoneedit.com/auth/dynamic.html?host=hostname.com'"`
`03:07.01`	`Hanuman`	`username is your username`
`03:07.05`	`Hanuman`	`password is your password`
`03:07.34`	`Hanuman`	`hostname.com is whatever the host is you're trying to update the IP for - it automatically gets your gateway ip for you`
`03:08.01`	`Hanuman`	`!segway`
`03:08.12`	`hans`	`i use dyndns, and a short script I wrote because the existing update clients were full of it.`
`03:08.33`	`Hanuman`	`dyndns makes you pay for your own domains, though`
`03:08.42`	`Hanuman`	`zoneedit is free for your own domains`
`03:08.42`	`uugDave`	`Hanuman: What does that wget script do exactly?`
`03:08.51`	`uugDave`	`~ZoneEdit`
`03:08.52`		`extra, extra, read all about it, zoneedit is a great way to manage DNS for free.`
`03:09.03`	`hans`	`oic. I have my own dns server for my domains. :-P`
`03:09.10`	`uugDave`	`Right on.`
`03:09.15`	`Hanuman`	`uugDave: it updates the ip for that hostname to your gateway's current ip`
`03:09.36`	`uugDave`	`Oh, but can I do it with a different IP. The server is "co-located" in my buddy's apartment.`
`03:09.58`	`Hanuman`	`hans: I guess I could do that but I would still need a dynamic service to name my dns server - that would get really confusing`
`03:10.27`	`Hanuman`	`uugDave: I think you can - I haven't found any serious docs on it, though - I accidentally found this one through google and not much came with it`
`03:10.54`	`uugDave`	`Well, I guess if it can be done with GET (instead of POST), then it can be done with wget. Unless wget handles POST as well. Does it?`
`03:11.31`	`Hanuman`	`I'd have to check the man for it - not an expert in wget`
`03:12.15`	`uugDave`	`Nor I, but a big fan none the less.`
`03:12.49`	`Hanuman`	`here's one script - http://zoneclient.sourceforge.net/`
`03:13.26`	`Hanuman`	`I just did a query on google for zoneedit autoupdate`
`03:13.31`	`uugDave`	`sweet.`
`03:13.39`	`Hanuman`	`!google zoneedit autoupdate`
`03:13.40`	`\usr\bin\perl`	`Results for zoneedit autoupdate on Google:`
`03:13.40`	`\usr\bin\perl`	`http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/nh-pm/2002-October/000039.html`
`03:13.40`	`\usr\bin\perl`	`http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/nh-pm/2002-October/000040.html`
`03:13.40`	`\usr\bin\perl`	`http://mail.gnhlug.org/pipermail/gnhlug-discuss/`
`03:13.41`	`uugDave`	`Google is the master, and you are the master of Google.`
`03:13.42`	`\usr\bin\perl`	`--`
`03:13.44`	`uugDave`	`Whoa!!!`
`03:13.45`	`uugDave`	`Cool.`
`03:13.48`	`uugDave`	`ibot, you rock!`
`03:13.48`		`uugDave: aw, gee`
`03:13.58`	`Hanuman`	`no - that was \usr\bin\perl, not ibot`
`03:14.11`	`uugDave`	`Indeed, \usr\bin\perl you rock!!`
`03:14.13`	`uugDave`	`ibot, you suck!`
`03:14.14`		`:(`
`03:14.23`	`Hanuman`	`they are actually friends`
`03:14.50`	`uugDave`	`Now, until ibot can render HTML a la links right in the chat room, I'm gonna have to actually use my stinking web browser. :)`
`03:15.36`	`Hanuman`	`that would be a fun irssi script to write - I'll have to do that sometime`
`03:15.37`	`uugDave`	`s/links/lynx/`
`03:18.27`	`\usr\bin\perl`	`<PROTECTED>`
`03:18.27`	`\usr\bin\perl`	`\|_ _\| \| \| ___ __ __ ___ (_)\| \|__ ___ \| \|_ \| \|`
`03:18.27`	`\usr\bin\perl`	`<PROTECTED>`
`03:18.27`	`\usr\bin\perl`	`\|___\| \|_\|\___/ \_/ \___\| \|_\|\|_.__/\___/ \__\|(_)`
`03:19.26`	`uugDave`	`Hmm, is that supposed to say l33t? ;)`
`03:19.41`	`hans`	`uugDave: no, this is l33t:`
`03:19.46`	`Hanuman`	`-.-- . ...`
`03:20.11`	`uugDave`	`Right on. ... --- ... :)`
`03:20.16`	`Hanuman`	`!ibot`
`03:20.28`	`Hanuman`	`ibot, what's up?`
`03:20.31`		`Replacement program for uptime.. URL: http://www.burdell.org/up.php3`
`03:20.38`	`hans`	`<PROTECTED>`
`03:20.38`	`hans`	`< l33t >`
`03:20.38`	`hans`	`<PROTECTED>`
`03:20.38`	`hans`	`<PROTECTED>`
`03:20.38`	`hans`	`<PROTECTED>`
`03:20.40`	`hans`	`<PROTECTED>`
`03:20.43`	`hans`	`<PROTECTED>`
`03:20.45`	`hans`	`<PROTECTED>`
`03:20.48`	`tewk`	`I use http://www.everydns.net/`
`03:20.53`	`Hanuman`	`hans: piglet?`
`03:21.19`	`hans`	`ibot, up is also a 404`
`03:21.20`		`that's too long, hans`
`03:21.48`	`hans`	`ibot, up is also 404 (not found)`
`03:21.49`		`hans: that's too long`
`03:21.55`	`hans`	`ibot, what are you on?`
`03:21.56`		`I think you lost me on that one, hans`
`03:22.05`	`hans`	`~gnome`
`03:22.07`		`I hate GNOME.`
`03:22.20`	`hans`	`Hanuman: cowsay`
`03:22.26`	`uugDave`	`~wmaker`
`03:23.18`	`Hanuman`	`hans: is that from irssi.org?`
`03:23.24`	`Hanuman`	`!wmaker`
`03:25.00`	`Hanuman`	`!cowsay`
`03:27.13`	`Hanuman`	`uugDave: here's another one - in Perl of course:`
`03:27.14`	`Hanuman`	`http://freshmeat.net/projects/noname/?topic_id=253%2C150`
`03:28.13`	`Hanuman`	`hans: tnx`
`03:31.53`	`Hanuman`	`<PROTECTED>`
`03:31.54`	`Hanuman`	`\| \|_ ___ ___ \| \|_`
`03:31.54`	`Hanuman`	`\| __\|/ _ \/ __\|\| __\|`
`03:31.54`	`Hanuman`	`\| \|_\| __/\__ \\| \|_`
`03:31.54`	`Hanuman`	`<PROTECTED>`
`03:34.24`	`*** join/#utah synic (~synic@67-40-96-197.slkc.qwest.net)`
`03:36.32`	`Hanuman`	`sweet! now to create an alias`
`03:39.31`	`Hanuman`	`I love irssi!`
`03:59.25`	`*** part/#utah uugDave (~dave@c-67-164-251-222.client.comcast.net)`
`04:31.00`	`*** join/#utah tyce (~tyce@ts64.vps2.iserver.net)`
`04:38.38`	`hans`	`sanity check: does this give you squirrelmail or a save dialog with a weird file name?`
`04:38.41`	`hans`	`http://falcon.fugal.net/squirrelmail/`
`04:50.59`	`tyce`	`1`
`04:58.34`	`*** join/#utah RedHat (~al@c-24-10-194-77.client.comcast.net)`
`05:13.28`	`Mecworks`	`sm`
`05:26.06`	`Bradipo`	`an`
`05:26.48`	`Jayce^`	`sm`
`05:28.06`	`*** join/#utah Newsome (~root@sorenson.dsl.csolutions.net)`
`05:30.15`	`*** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@c-24-2-73-224.client.comcast.net)`
`05:31.28`	`RedHat`	`sm`
`05:32.47`	`*** join/#utah jakea (~jakea@jakea.dsl.xmission.com)`
`05:39.28`	`*** join/#utah art (~art@c-67-169-246-102.client.comcast.net)`
`05:40.13`	`emcnabb`	`man, Dave Smith is a phpLDAPadmin machine`
`05:40.21`	`Bradipo`	`So, what is sm?`
`05:40.22`	`emcnabb`	`they have done so much in the last 2 days`
`05:40.58`	`torriem`	`emcnabb, time for me to upgrade, I guess.`
`05:41.47`	`torriem`	`Bradipo: no idea; I'm new to irc culture (relearning it, actually)`
`05:42.10`	`Bradipo`	`Apparently so am I.`
`05:42.17`	`Bradipo`	`:-)`
`05:42.57`	`torriem`	`But i do know a little bit about how to talk to the ibot`
`05:43.58`	`Jayce^`	`Bradipo, squirrelmail.. hans asked about it`
`05:44.21`	`Jayce^`	`stupid ps fan is buzzing.. shutting down to try and fix it..`
`05:55.04`	`*** join/#utah spr5 (~Scott@auth11-2.ycell.octelecom.net)`
`06:01.40`	`Newsome`	`ibot, what is Evan McNabb?`
`06:01.41`		`[evan mcnabb] an uber-geek, or a banana`
`06:03.01`	`torriem`	`So who taught it about the banana?`
`06:03.14`	`torriem`	`:0`
`06:03.15`	`torriem`	`:)`
`06:03.21`	`Newsome`	`it seemed only logical! :)`
`06:04.27`	`Newsome`	`ibot, what is mcbride?`
`06:04.28`		`rumour has it, mcbride is a self-serving, unethical, lying, thieving CEO who is pumping his stock so he can dump it.`
`06:04.58`	`Newsome`	`ibot, evan mcnabb is not a banana`
`06:05.00`		`...but evan mcnabb is already something else...`
`06:05.09`	`torriem`	`~help`
`06:07.45`	`emcnabb`	`~whaleslap Newsome`
`06:07.48`		`ACTION slaps Newsome upside and over the head with one freakishly huge killer whale named hugh`
`06:07.49`	`Newsome`	`hey`
`06:07.53`	`torriem`	`~slashdot`
`06:07.59`	`torriem`	`~freshmeat`
`06:08.01`		`methinks freshmeat is at http://www.freshmeat.net`
`06:08.01`	`emcnabb`	`I guess I should probably not whaleslap my boss :-)`
`06:08.23`	`Newsome`	`what is evan mcnabb?`
`06:08.36`	`emcnabb`	`a very cool dude`
`06:08.39`	`torriem`	`have to say :ibot,`
`06:08.40`	`Newsome`	`ibot, listen when I'm talking to you!`
`06:08.56`	`torriem`	`~kernel`
`06:09.02`	`Newsome`	`yeah, forgot about that part`
`06:09.11`	`emcnabb`	`torriem, time for you to respond about OpenZaurus to the UUG`
`06:09.23`	`torriem`	`Oh. haven't checked my e-mail`
`06:09.57`	`Newsome`	`he must be hung. Maybe he broke`
`06:10.47`	`torriem`	`ibot, what is evan mcnabb`
`06:10.48`		`extra, extra, read all about it, evan mcnabb is an uber-geek, or a banana`
`06:10.57`	`torriem`	`~kernel`
`06:11.08`	`torriem`	`(that get's me a personal response`
`06:11.09`	`jakea`	`my vote is a banana`
`06:11.20`	`Newsome`	`it sounds right to me!`
`06:11.23`	`torriem`	`did you know the latest 2.0 kernel is 2.0.40-rc6?`
`06:11.38`	`*** join/#utah habib (~steve@tca215.ras.itlnet.net)`
`06:11.45`	`jakea`	`or a catapiller`
`06:11.47`	`Newsome`	`I did not know that. that's good information to know!`
`06:11.48`	`emcnabb`	`hey Steve`
`06:11.53`	`habib`	`hey`
`06:12.10`	`jakea`	`is this Steve from Provo or Steve from SLC`
`06:12.21`	`torriem`	`:)`
`06:12.23`	`habib`	`steve from oklahoma`
`06:12.34`	`torriem`	`Call yourself habib!`
`06:12.37`	`torriem`	`kidding.`
`06:12.42`	`torriem`	`Oh you did`
`06:12.45`	`torriem`	`nevermind`
`06:12.48`	`habib`	`ha`
`06:13.04`	`emcnabb`	`jakea, I posted somethign there a while back but it won't be up until tomorrow morning`
`06:13.07`	`torriem`	`My gaim aliases are calling you "Steve" instead of habib. weird gaim.`
`06:13.27`	`torriem`	`emcnabb: I'd love to help with the install fest but I'm pretty busy much of saturday. What are the hours again?`
`06:13.46`	`Newsome`	`so, what does KSL say now?`
`06:14.35`	`torriem`	`habib: I did get the Xserver running with all the shadows and transparency today. Very pretty. Works very well`
`06:14.39`	`Newsome`	`I saw something on from Evan in Provo. Is that yours?`
`06:14.54`	`habib`	`sweet. hows the speed on that?`
`06:14.55`	`emcnabb`	`torriem, 9-noon`
`06:15.06`	`emcnabb`	`torriem, if you can only come for an hour that's fine`
`06:15.10`	`torriem`	`If it said something to the effect of "Darl Mcbride is smoking crack" then yes it would be`
`06:15.12`	`emcnabb`	`yeah`
`06:15.23`	`emcnabb`	`Newsome, is that on yet?`
`06:15.57`	`Newsome`	`there's one from Evan "No David vs. Goliath"`
`06:16.08`	`torriem`	`habib: well, since the server is a Vesa server (no acceleration at all), it's pretty slow. But here's the weird part: with the fancy transparency and shadows turned on, dragging windows became smooth and quite fast, whereas without it was very jerky`
`06:16.08`	`Newsome`	`nothing about crack, though.`
`06:16.15`	`torriem`	`:)`
`06:16.31`	`emcnabb`	`oh`
`06:16.32`	`emcnabb`	`haha`
`06:16.34`	`habib`	`odd`
`06:16.41`	`emcnabb`	`I was expecting it to be on the bottom :-)`
`06:17.02`	`emcnabb`	`<PROTECTED>`
`06:17.06`	`emcnabb`	`I wonder who that is`
`06:17.07`	`emcnabb`	`:-)`
`06:17.13`	`emcnabb`	`tell us to "chill out"`
`06:17.15`	`habib`	`torriem: so how hard was it to get set up?`
`06:17.20`	`torriem`	`habib, and for anyone interested. I posted this earlier. http://students.cs.byu.edu/~torriem/coolshot.png`
`06:17.48`	`torriem`	`habib, just follow the instructions at: http://www.freedesktop.org/Software/XserverInstallGuide`
`06:18.35`	`habib`	`torriem: is it still pretty buggy?`
`06:18.36`	`torriem`	`that screenshot is real transparency. I had a clock going underneath the gnome menu and you could see it changing through the translucency.`
`06:18.52`	`torriem`	`habib: yeah. But if it were faster, it could be usable.`
`06:19.06`	`emcnabb`	`torriem, have you posted that screenshot to the UUG site yet?`
`06:19.13`	`torriem`	`Darl Mcbride of course`
`06:19.32`	`torriem`	`emcnabb: not yet because I don't know if I already have an account and if so how to reset my password.`
`06:19.59`	`emcnabb`	`let me ask michael golden to reset it for you`
`06:20.22`	`torriem`	`I'll talk to him myself`
`06:20.29`	`torriem`	`he's on my buddy list too.`
`06:20.34`	`emcnabb`	`ok, he's on IM right now`
`06:21.03`	`torriem`	`sent him an im`
`06:22.55`	`torriem`	`How about that Bombardier unicycle?`
`06:26.17`	`spr5`	`mm... nifty. More toys..`
`06:29.04`	`torriem`	`submitted my screenshot, emcnabb.`
`06:30.37`	`emcnabb`	`torriem, cool`
`06:31.36`	`emcnabb`	`torriem, awk is your least favorite command?`
`06:31.51`	`torriem`	`Oh yeah. let me edit that.`
`06:31.52`	`emcnabb`	`Abacus, beads, fingers`
`06:32.02`	`emcnabb`	`did you see my skills?`
`06:32.05`	`emcnabb`	`on my profile?`
`06:32.35`	`torriem`	`not yet`
`06:32.36`	`emcnabb`	`http://uug.byu.edu/members.php?id=17`
`06:32.45`	`torriem`	`changed my least favorite command to "emacs" which is what it should have been.`
`06:33.17`	`jakea`	`darn emacs bashers`
`06:34.11`	`levi_`	`Bah, emacs is a perfectly good editor.`
`06:34.28`	`levi_`	`I don't use it now, but I used to.`
`06:34.31`	`emcnabb`	`emacs sucks`
`06:34.33`	`torriem`	`Not basing emacs; it really is my least favorite command. The only way i can remember to get out of it is to get a terminal and killall -9 emacs.`
`06:34.42`	`emcnabb`	`kill -9 %1`
`06:35.01`	`spr5`	`Next holloween I'm going to be a vi user. I know that's scary`
`06:35.02`	`*** join/#utah jamie_ (~jamie@auth11-1.ycell.octelecom.net)`
`06:35.14`	`torriem`	`:)`
`06:35.16`	`torriem`	`welcome jamie_`
`06:35.27`	`jamie_`	`thanks`
`06:35.28`	`habib`	`i need a procmail filter for irc`
`06:35.38`	`emcnabb`	`emacs`
`06:35.40`	`levi_`	`torriem: ^X ^C`
`06:35.41`	`emcnabb`	`emacs`
`06:35.42`	`habib`	`vi`
`06:35.49`	`emcnabb`	`I love vim`
`06:35.51`	`torriem`	`That's too hard to remember, levi_`
`06:35.54`	`emcnabb`	`I just like saying emacs`
`06:35.54`	`torriem`	`:)`
`06:35.55`	`emcnabb`	`it's like`
`06:35.56`	`emcnabb`	`ni`
`06:36.02`	`torriem`	`humperdink humperdink`
`06:36.03`	`emcnabb`	`actully`
`06:36.03`	`levi_`	`torriem: No, it's not.`
`06:36.07`	`torriem`	`:)`
`06:36.09`	`emcnabb`	`vi is more like ni`
`06:36.14`	`emcnabb`	`but vim is tollerable`
`06:36.19`	`torriem`	`levi_: strains my hands too much. :)`
`06:36.19`	`spr5`	`so it is evil...`
`06:36.24`	`emcnabb`	`emacs is for crack adicts`
`06:36.37`	`habib`	`time for me to step out...`
`06:36.41`	`emcnabb`	`haha`
`06:36.42`	`torriem`	`I even use vim on my zaurus`
`06:36.44`	`emcnabb`	`habib, no!!!`
`06:36.46`	`torriem`	`see ya steve.`
`06:36.50`	`levi_`	`torriem: It's not that hard. :)`
`06:36.53`	`torriem`	`saba al'noor or whatever`
`06:36.53`	`habib`	`later`
`06:37.03`	`torriem`	`is that evening?`
`06:37.05`	`habib`	`tisbah ala xeerh`
`06:37.08`	`levi_`	`torriem: If you have problems with that, you may need to get physical therapy for your hands.`
`06:37.13`	`torriem`	`:)`
`06:37.14`	`habib`	`sorry, that's morning`
`06:37.18`	`*** part/#utah habib (~steve@tca215.ras.itlnet.net)`
`06:37.43`	`emcnabb`	`man, 25 users is the most I've seen on #utah before`
`06:37.53`	`torriem`	`fedora has 150 or more.`
`06:38.06`	`levi_`	`Well, there are two of me on.`
`06:38.09`	`jakea`	`emcnabb: you do know that vi came from the BSD side and emacs came from the GNU side, whose side are you on here?`
`06:38.49`	`jakea`	`and since we should rename our clue to the Linux User Group, not the BSD Users Group`
`06:38.52`	`emcnabb`	`emacs came from Stallman`
`06:38.54`	`torriem`	`jakea: well, it's just that I already have one GPL'd operating system. I don't need another.`
`06:38.55`	`jakea`	`;0`
`06:39.00`	`jakea`	`;)`
`06:39.07`	`emcnabb`	`after he sat in a lab without showering for months`
`06:39.09`	`emcnabb`	`emacs stinks`
`06:39.11`	`emcnabb`	`like he did`
`06:39.13`	`jakea`	`he he`
`06:39.21`	`torriem`	`yeah but then gcc must also stink.`
`06:39.26`	`emcnabb`	`true`
`06:39.32`	`emcnabb`	`he took a shower by then`
`06:39.35`	`levi_`	`Silly emacs bashers.`
`06:39.36`	`torriem`	`Oh yeah`
`06:39.37`	`jakea`	`if it was not for him, you'd be using a program with even bigger bloat now`
`06:39.42`	`emcnabb`	`he left the lab after emacs`
`06:39.55`	`emcnabb`	`I wonder if the lab can take ownership of it`
`06:40.01`	`emcnabb`	`and give it to SCO`
`06:40.08`	`jakea`	`don't give them ideas`
`06:40.13`	`emcnabb`	`hahaha`
`06:40.16`	`emcnabb`	`gooooo SCO!`
`06:40.29`	`torriem`	`jakea: no, vim was an extension of vi, which was an extension of the original ed editor. This all originated long before emacs evolved from a lump of putty found under Stallman's armpit one summer's morning. (excuse the hitchhiker's guide reference)`
`06:40.33`	`emcnabb`	`ok, you guys are making me unproductive`
`06:40.56`	`spr5`	`isn't that what irc is for?`
`06:40.58`	`emcnabb`	`stop trying to defend emacs`
`06:41.04`	`torriem`	`:)`
`06:41.13`	`torriem`	`You guys crack me up.`
`06:41.16`	`torriem`	`Awesome`
`06:41.24`	`levi_`	`ex and vi were developed at Berkeley, though.`
`06:41.48`	`*** join/#utah Jayce^ (~Jayce^@65.218.37.130)`
`06:41.51`	`torriem`	`Yeah they are a bunch of anarchists down there.`
`06:41.54`	`emcnabb`	`they're eternal buddies now!`
`06:42.05`	`emcnabb`	`Jake & McBride 4-ever`
`06:42.13`	`jakea`	`Nooooo!!!!!!`
`06:42.19`	`spr5`	`~lart emcnabb`
`06:42.22`	`*** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ`
`06:42.36`	`emcnabb`	`oh no, Jayce is going to kick me off!`
`06:42.55`	`Jayce^`	`of course..`
`06:45.19`	`jakea`	`I win! HA HA!`
`06:45.32`	`spr5`	`go emacs!`
`06:45.37`	`Jayce^`	`ew`
`06:45.42`	`torriem`	`At least we're not bored to tears here. I haven't seen this much traffic in quite a while`
`06:45.48`	`Jayce^`	`~emacs`
`06:45.50`		`methinks emacs is a waste of several megabytes of code that aren't needed for a text editor or is useful when "M-x vip-mode" is used, or almost jove on the familiar system, or pretty useful`
`06:45.50`	`emcnabb`	`if using emacs makes you a winner, you are one in your little La La Land`
`06:45.57`	`jakea`	`it's cause I started defending emacs`
`06:46.22`	`emcnabb`	`ok`
`06:46.24`	`torriem`	`you know, I actually learned something from the ibot. If I'm ever stuck in emacs I can M-x (whatever that means) vip-mode and get vi emulation.`
`06:46.28`	`emcnabb`	`I'm back`
`06:46.37`	`levi_`	`emacs is sweet.`
`06:46.38`	`emcnabb`	`and I'm as mad as ever`
`06:46.48`	`emcnabb`	`levi_, if you're drunk`
`06:46.52`	`levi_`	`You can extend it... with LISP!`
`06:47.01`	`levi_`	`You're all just unenlightened.`
`06:47.02`	`emcnabb`	`oh yeah`
`06:47.04`	`emcnabb`	`lisp!`
`06:47.05`	`torriem`	`God help us all`
`06:47.07`	`emcnabb`	`scheme!`
`06:47.08`	`emcnabb`	`:-)`
`06:47.09`	`Jayce^`	`vim is sweet..`
`06:47.15`	`emcnabb`	`long live vim`
`06:47.16`	`Jayce^`	`you can extend it... with PERL`
`06:47.24`	`torriem`	`or probably many other languages`
`06:47.28`	`Jayce^`	`or other languages is you feel you must use them :`
`06:47.29`	`Jayce^`	`:)`
`06:47.33`	`levi_`	`Bunch of shallow hackers. LISP is the true language of Computer Science. ;)`
`06:47.46`	`emcnabb`	`can we make a sig for the plug Jayce^ called "Emacs Pansys SIG"?`
`06:47.54`	`jakea`	`Mandrake vs Red(mond) Hat`
`06:47.54`	`torriem`	`well, we could write a perl interpreter in lisp and add it to emacs.`
`06:47.56`	`levi_`	`Forget unix, I want a LISP machine.`
`06:48.06`	`torriem`	`Red(mond) Hat my eye`
`06:48.09`	`torriem`	`whatever`
`06:48.17`	`emcnabb`	`jakea, YOU USE MANDRAKE AND EMACS? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU!!!!`
`06:48.30`	`torriem`	`levi_: the true language of a computer science is a strip of tape and a symbol reader/printer`
`06:48.46`	`spr5`	`Evan, I'll bring some mandrake cds to the installfest.`
`06:48.48`	`emcnabb`	`jakea, YOU ARE GETTING YOUR PHD! YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER THAN THAT!!!`
`06:48.52`	`emcnabb`	`:-)`
`06:49.00`	`levi_`	`torriem: That's got nothing to do with computer science. Not abstract enough!`
`06:49.02`	`jakea`	`he he`
`06:49.06`	`torriem`	`wow. such yelling. My ears are hurting.`
`06:49.06`	`levi_`	`torriem: You are obviously a neophyte. ;)`
`06:49.21`	`torriem`	`Long live the simple turing machine with an infinite tape!!`
`06:49.26`	`jakea`	`emcnabb: WHY ARE YOU TALKING IN YOUR AOL VOICE?!?!`
`06:49.27`	`emcnabb`	`torriem, MY CAPS LOCK IS BROKEN`
`06:49.39`	`jakea`	`OMG LOL!!!!!!!!!!!`
`06:49.39`	`emcnabb`	`jakea, BECAUSE YOU PROBABLY USE AOL TOO!!!`
`06:49.40`	`torriem`	`I challenge your lisp or perl to match my endless turing machine power`
`06:49.52`	`jakea`	`no, I draw the line at AOL`
`06:49.53`	`emcnabb`	`AOL, Mandrake, Emacs`
`06:49.55`	`emcnabb`	`what a combination`
`06:49.58`	`torriem`	`emcnabb: Your linux box has a capslock key?!`
`06:50.10`	`jakea`	`the AOL IM for linux sucks, I tried it, went back to gaim`
`06:50.14`	`emcnabb`	`actually it doesn;`
`06:50.16`	`levi_`	`torriem: Um, in case you missed that lecture, the Lambda calculus is computably equivalent to the Turing machine, and a far sight easier to understand. :)`
`06:50.33`	`emcnabb`	`what else does jake use...`
`06:50.38`	`torriem`	`levi_: Oh I know, but it all comes back to the all-powerful turing machine.`
`06:50.47`	`torriem`	`That is where the proofs are made`
`06:51.14`	`jamie_`	`emcnabb: Wordpad?`
`06:51.16`	`emcnabb`	`Mandrake, Emacs, AOL, Packard Bells, Visual Studio`
`06:51.19`	`emcnabb`	`Wordpad`
`06:51.20`	`emcnabb`	`yes`
`06:51.22`	`jakea`	`lol`
`06:51.28`	`levi_`	`No, no... the lambda calculus is a separate but equivalent set of base assumptions that you can build all your computability proofs on.`
`06:51.38`	`levi_`	`You can completely ignore turing machines.`
`06:51.47`	`torriem`	`Wordpad is for wimps. Notepad is where it's at. No syntax hilighting. Nadda.`
`06:52.01`	`emcnabb`	`jakea, I know emacs does everything and more; does it wipe drool off the keyboard?`
`06:52.14`	`emcnabb`	`most emacs users have that problem`
`06:52.16`	`torriem`	`:)`
`06:52.27`	`torriem`	`This is too much`
`06:52.27`	`jakea`	`I'm working on submitting that feature`
`06:52.32`	`emcnabb`	`or do you have to program that in using lisp?`
`06:52.47`	`jamie_`	`There's nothing wrong with syntax highlighting, there's much wrong with programs that screw up every file they touch.`
`06:53.01`	`torriem`	`jamie_: yeah I was just being facetious`
`06:53.04`	`jakea`	`lol`
`06:53.20`	`jakea`	`thanks for the laugh evan`
`06:53.27`	`levi_`	`emcnabb: Good riddance, you emacs hater. ;)`
`06:53.30`	`torriem`	`Dream of SCO, emcnabb`
`06:53.33`	`torriem`	`oh he's gone`
`06:53.36`	`emcnabb`	`die emacs die`
`06:53.46`	`emcnabb`	`SCO, emacs, they're all the same`
`06:53.47`	`levi_`	`emcnabb: I thought you were going to bed!`
`06:54.13`	`jakea`	`some people just don't appreciate the finer things in life`
`06:54.15`	`emcnabb`	`big, bloated, too many fantasy dreams of being decent`
`06:54.25`	`emcnabb`	`got to love emacs`
`06:54.26`	`emcnabb`	`NOT`
`06:54.31`	`torriem`	`jakea: yeah like :w`
`06:54.33`	`emcnabb`	`ok, I really need to go to bed`
`06:54.36`	`emcnabb`	`:Wq`
`06:54.38`	`emcnabb`	`:wq`
`06:54.39`	`levi_`	`Methinks emcnabb doth protest too much.`
`06:54.58`	`emcnabb`	`Methinks emacs sucks :-)`
`06:54.59`	`emcnabb`	`ok`
`06:55.02`	`emcnabb`	`I'm going to be nice`
`06:55.02`	`levi_`	`He secretly loves emacs, he's just afraid to admit it.`
`06:55.03`	`jakea`	`are you going to organize an emacs protest`
`06:55.05`	`emcnabb`	`haha`
`06:55.07`	`emcnabb`	`no way`
`06:55.09`	`torriem`	`Well, I must also leave. I have to do a bit of vim coding before I crash`
`06:55.27`	`emcnabb`	`jakea, no, because emacs isn't imporatant in the world`
`06:55.37`	`jakea`	`neither is SCO...`
`06:55.40`	`emcnabb`	`SCO will change the world before emacs`
`06:55.41`	`torriem`	`yeah SCO can claim ownership on emacs`
`06:55.52`	`jakea`	`emacs, C++, UNIX...`
`06:55.56`	`emcnabb`	`haha`
`06:56.01`	`emcnabb`	`NIGHT FOR REAL!!!`
`06:56.08`	`emcnabb`	`ok, I'm just closing xchat`
`06:56.09`	`torriem`	`somebody kick him off, quick`
`06:56.16`	`jakea`	`he he`
`06:56.20`	`torriem`	`:)`
`06:56.24`	`torriem`	`That's my old roommate for ya`
`06:56.50`	`*** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@c-24-2-73-224.client.comcast.net)`
`06:56.55`	`emcnabb`	`dang`
`06:57.05`	`emcnabb`	`I can't keep away`
`06:57.07`	`levi_`	`emcnabb: Just can't leave, can you?`
`06:57.12`	`torriem`	`what the heck. he's back. Stupid xchat kept respawning.`
`06:57.20`	`torriem`	`Don't use nohup next time.`
`06:57.38`	`jakea`	`he wanted to finally admit he uses emacs, but he just couldn't do it`
`06:58.00`	`torriem`	`So far as I know, hell is still about 45 degrees C.`
`06:58.17`	`torriem`	`No, make that 50`
`06:58.19`	`jakea`	`and it hell, you're forced to use vi`
`06:58.25`	`jakea`	`in Windows`
`06:58.41`	`levi_`	`Oh, I use vi all the time.`
`06:58.43`	`spr5`	`one of my CS teachers already does in class...`
`06:58.46`	`levi_`	`Even in Windows.`
`06:58.50`	`torriem`	`One man's hell is another man's heaven. At least if I'm condemned to using windows for eternity I know there's a vim installable for it.`
`06:58.55`	`levi_`	`Not that I use Windows very often.`
`06:59.23`	`jamie_`	`Windows isn't allowed in heaven, in any incarnation.`
`06:59.48`	`jakea`	`No unclean thing may enter the kingdom of heaven`
`06:59.49`	`levi_`	`No Xboxes in heaven, then?`
`06:59.51`	`torriem`	`If I was stuck on windows, I would probably install a full cygwin environment, complete with X11 and run gnome 2.2 for cygwin, blocking out most of the windows crap`
`06:59.54`	`jakea`	`so... WIndows, vi...`
`06:59.57`	`jakea`	`Red Hat...`
`07:00.06`	`torriem`	`levi_: that's right. Only playstations allowed there`
`07:00.08`	`jamie_`	`Hey,`
`07:00.12`	`jakea`	`and game cubes`
`07:01.04`	`spr5`	`as much as I love the vi flame, i must sleep. later`
`07:01.06`	`*** part/#utah spr5 (~Scott@auth11-2.ycell.octelecom.net)`
`07:01.14`	`torriem`	`as do I`
`07:01.40`	`*** part/#utah torriem (~torriem@c-67-161-219-205.client.comcast.net)`
`07:02.12`	`*** join/#utah Ryan1 (~ryan@rberick.dsl.xmission.com)`
`07:02.45`	`*** part/#utah jamie_ (~jamie@auth11-1.ycell.octelecom.net)`
`07:20.01`	`*** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@c-24-2-73-224.client.comcast.net)`
`08:12.46`	`*** part/#utah Ryan1 (~ryan@rberick.dsl.xmission.com)`
`13:01.25`	`*** join/#utah [Robbie] (6ygg6ygy@dsl-203-33-160-4.NSW.netspace.net.au)`
`13:01.28`	`*** part/#utah [Robbie] (6ygg6ygy@dsl-203-33-160-4.NSW.netspace.net.au)`
`13:51.52`	`*** join/#utah art (~art@c-67-169-246-102.client.comcast.net)`
`13:53.54`	`bonez39`	`hello Art`
`14:02.00`	`art`	`hey how's it going bonez39?`
`14:38.45`	`*** join/#utah art (~art@c-67-169-246-102.client.comcast.net)`
`14:45.31`	`Hanuman`	`man - you guys were up late last night`
`14:45.44`	`Hanuman`	`!ice cream`
`14:45.57`	`Hanuman`	`nothing like ice cream for breakfast...`
`14:48.10`	`art`	`hey has anyone seen the Dell Digital Jukebox?`
`14:48.23`	`art`	`it looks like an ipod rip-off.`
`14:48.40`	`art`	`I was wondering if anyone knew of Linux support for it.`
`14:48.50`	`Hanuman`	`yeah - I'd rather have an ipod, but mp3 players just don't appeal to me much anyway`
`14:49.22`	`Hanuman`	`!money`
`14:49.42`	`art`	`what kind of contract?`
`14:50.00`	`art`	`work?`
`14:50.01`	`Hanuman`	`for a Perl programming freelance gig`
`14:50.06`	`Hanuman`	`in the evenings`
`14:50.06`	`art`	`sweet.`
`14:50.10`	`art`	`congrats.`
`14:50.43`	`Hanuman`	`tnx - I'm trying to eventually get my own contracting business going, but I'm trying to get some connections around the area before I go full-blast at it.`
`14:51.05`	`Hanuman`	`And I have to do all this while I currently have a full time job and try to go to school in the evenings.`
`14:51.37`	`art`	`where are you going to school?`
`14:52.04`	`Hanuman`	`I think this guy is going to want me to be CTO of his company if it works out, but I'm not sure I'll take him up on it or not. I'm just going to a competitor to University of Phoenix out here on the East Coast called Strayer University.`
`14:52.18`	`art`	`cool.`
`14:52.32`	`Hanuman`	`He is very pro-OSS, though which is a good thing`
`14:52.41`	`art`	`awsome.`
`14:52.47`	`Hanuman`	`We're talking about having both a Windows and Linux product all written in Perl`
`14:53.04`	`Hanuman`	`can't say anything more because I'm under NDA`
`14:53.10`	`art`	`cool.`
`14:53.20`	`art`	`you may want to consider using gtk as well.`
`14:53.31`	`art`	`it's cross-platform.`
`14:54.37`	`Hanuman`	`yeah, but it's a web-based platform. We need the windows version because we have a client that will be reselling it to clients to work with Microsoft CRM, and all of those clients will be running Windows`
`14:56.17`	`Hanuman`	`However we will want our own version that we will not want to pay for upgrades, etc. on, which I am recommending he setup on Linux`
`14:57.34`	`*** join/#utah bonez39 (~sanchiro@64.122.114.148)`
`14:59.02`	`Hanuman`	`Besides, I want it converted to mod_perl which works better under Linux anyway.`
`15:07.02`	`Hanuman`	`anyone else here ever worked out contracts before?`
`15:14.13`	`hans`	`~lart flamers`
`15:14.53`	`hans`	`do you know how much flame I had to wade through in the backlog to get to the meat? (lambda calculus, lisp, etc.)`
`15:16.20`	`emcnabb`	`~lart hans`
`15:16.36`	`hans`	`ibot, tell emcnabb about gnome`
`15:17.49`	`hans`	`just a warning, evan. ;-)`
`15:18.13`	`emcnabb`	`haha`
`15:19.12`	`elg`	`I have two required readings for anyone who wants to implement a genealogy program`
`15:19.16`	`elg`	`about data models`
`15:19.17`	`elg`	`http://main.amu.edu.pl/~rafalp/GEDCOM/necg.pdf`
`15:19.17`	`elg`	`http://main.amu.edu.pl/~rafalp/GEDCOM/necg2.pdf`
`15:22.03`	`Hanuman`	`it will be interesting to see what happens in the next version of PAF`
`15:23.37`	`Hanuman`	`what is elg going to do?`
`15:23.58`	`elg`	`we're working on a data model that addresses the issues we have with the GDM and then we're going to run with it`
`15:24.27`	`Hanuman`	`cool - is this at BYU?`
`15:24.38`	`elg`	`ya. we == Dr. Woodfield and I`
`15:25.05`	`elg`	`but I shouldn't be telling you all this. I hate vaporware. :)`
`15:25.07`	`Hanuman`	`That's really cool. I think if the world adapted a different standard and it made sense the church would grab on as well.`
`15:25.22`	`elg`	`~lart vaporware`
`15:25.26`	`elg`	`~vaporware`
`15:25.38`	`Hanuman`	`elg: you should send these articles to LDSOSS (we'll see if a flame war starts)`
`15:25.46`	`Hanuman`	`!vaporware`
`15:27.10`	`elg`	`Hanuman: I don't have time to expound all my opinions about genealogical data models in emails to list of people that don't care (yet). When we've got the data model worked out we'll RFC it I think and _then_ we can have flame wars. :)`
`15:27.25`	`elg`	`but I may post the articles and step back.`
`15:27.28`	`Hanuman`	`elg: that's cool - I'm excited to see`
`15:27.41`	`elg`	`the first was from 1996. the second from 1998. he was ahead of his time`
`15:27.50`	`Hanuman`	`I just want new and better technology to be developed`
`15:28.16`	`Hanuman`	`wow - 1996 and 1998 - very cool. XML wasn't really around at that time either.`
`15:28.29`	`Hanuman`	`which is basically some of the concepts he's explaining.`
`15:28.31`	`elg`	`yeah, you'll notice the first talks about sgml`
`15:28.36`	`Hanuman`	`yeah`
`15:33.31`	`elg`	`~vaporware`
`15:33.33`		`extra, extra, read all about it, vaporware is um, yeah...`
`15:43.51`	`Hanuman`	`wow - I don't know if this is normal for us or not but we got over 4 mil hits yesterday`
`15:43.57`	`Hanuman`	`that's a first for me`
`15:44.09`	`*** join/#utah tomeas1 (~teastmond@63-253-57-90.ip.mcleodusa.net)`
`15:44.55`	`*** join/#utah Jayce^ (~Jayce^@65.218.37.130)`
`15:45.34`	`elg`	`ibot, hit Hanuman`
`15:45.36`		`elg: I'm not sure, is it larger than a breadbox?`
`15:46.24`	`elg`	`ibot, hit hanuman`
`15:46.25`		`ACTION pummels Hanuman into the ground`
`15:49.32`	`Hanuman`	`!bat`
`15:49.48`	`Hanuman`	`ibot, hit elg`
`15:49.49`		`Hanuman: I'm not sure, is it larger than a breadbox?`
`15:50.49`	`elg`	`careful, if you don't want a møøse to bite your sister`
`15:51.18`	`elg`	`ibot, elg is a møøse`
`15:51.20`		`elg: i'm not going to learn illegal characters`
`15:51.21`	`Hanuman`	`my irssi doesn't read that - what did you say about my sister?`
`15:51.36`	`elg`	`ibot, learn unicode`
`15:51.38`		`no idea, elg`
`15:51.44`	`elg`	`~unicode`
`15:51.46`		`methinks unicode is http://qpe.sourceforge.net/packages/ipaq/qpf-cyberbit-120-50-t10_2.3.0-3_arm.ipk or http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/bedic/unifont_160_50_t10.qpf?download`
`15:51.58`	`elg`	`ibot, unicode is also something ibot doesn't get`
`15:51.59`		`elg: okay`
`15:52.37`	`Hanuman`	`:-p`
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`16:06.59`	`Hanuman`	`Chik-fil-a needs to use cowsay more in their ads`
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`16:11.15`	`levi`	`Good morning.`
`16:11.41`	`sjansen`	`bom dia`
`16:12.06`	`Hanuman`	`-- --- .-. -. .. -. .----.`
`16:12.24`	`Jayce^`	`hehe... the true meaning of plug was discovered at the plug meeting on wednesday`
`16:12.42`	`Hanuman`	`I didn't know there was morse for '`
`16:12.46`	`Hanuman`	`Jayce^: what was that`
`16:13.23`	`sjansen`	`Yes, do tell.`
`16:13.24`	`Jayce^`	`o grupo dos us�rios de linux - portugu�s`
`16:13.41`	`Jayce^`	`n�o foi sjansen?`
`16:13.42`	`sjansen`	`Tá certo.`
`16:16.24`	`sjansen`	`So I broke down and bought Practical mod_perl yesterday.`
`16:16.40`	`Jayce^`	`sweet :)`
`16:16.41`	`sjansen`	`I've got to stop walking into book stores. It's too expensive.`
`16:16.52`	`Hanuman`	`very cool - still need to get that one`
`16:17.28`	`Hanuman`	`if anyone here has to run Windows, here's a cool program to make it run like a Mac:`
`16:17.31`	`Hanuman`	`http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/downloadoftheday/story/0,24330,3565644,00.html`
`16:20.55`	`sjansen`	`But the dock is one of the worst UI features of Mac OS X.`
`16:22.27`	`art`	`docks in and of themselves are not bad.`
`16:22.36`	`art`	`but Mac OS X's dock is especially bad.`
`16:22.55`	`art`	`everything moves, nothing is in the same place at the same time.`
`16:23.22`	`elg`	`art: maybe but I'd rather have things there and moving than not there at all`
`16:23.23`	`art`	`It's one of the reasons I was never able to really get into Mac OS X`
`16:23.41`	`art`	`of course.`
`16:23.58`	`elg`	`by moving I assume you mean reshuffling`
`16:24.03`	`art`	`I like having my icons on a dock at the bottom of my screen.`
`16:24.05`	`elg`	`you can of course turn off the bounciness`
`16:24.06`	`art`	`too.`
`16:24.17`	`art`	`no that 's not what I'm talking about.`
`16:24.22`	`art`	`the dock is dynamic.`
`16:24.31`	`art`	`if I minimize a window, then all the icons move.`
`16:24.55`	`art`	`then I have to 'find' my web browser icon again.`
`16:25.12`	`art`	`stability in a UI is important.`
`16:25.17`	`elg`	`yup`
`16:25.22`	`elg`	`hearnet 0.0.2 is out`
`16:25.40`	`art`	`plus there's no complete task management system.`
`16:26.48`	`art`	`you have to find the icons that have little black arrows to know what is running, and the minimized windows have real no description unless you mouse over them.`
`16:27.00`	`art`	`it wastes time.`
`16:33.39`	`sjansen`	`I was talking about the constantly moving targets.`
`16:34.08`	`sjansen`	`And the center alignment.`
`16:34.27`	`sjansen`	`It's much easier to aim for a constantly positioned icon in a corner.`
`16:34.50`	`art`	`I agree.`
`16:36.03`	`Hanuman`	`ok - this particular dock is buggy`
`16:36.10`	`Hanuman`	`seems to have a memory leak, too`
`16:39.16`	`Hanuman`	`anyone know of any similar docks for Linux?`
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`16:39.21`	`jsmith`	`Morning all...`
`16:39.30`	`levi`	`I agree with some of the OS X dock criticisms. It really isn't all that great of a design, though it does look cool.`
`16:39.39`	`Hanuman`	`<PROTECTED>`
`16:39.39`	`Hanuman`	`\| \/ \| ___ _ _ _ _ (_) _ _ __ _`
`16:39.39`	`Hanuman`	\| \|\/\| \|/ _ \\| '_\|\| ' \ \| \|\| ' \ / _` \|
`16:39.39`	`Hanuman`	`\|_\| \|_\|\___/\|_\| \|_\|\|_\|\|_\|\|_\|\|_\|\__, \|`
`16:39.39`	`Hanuman`	`<PROTECTED>`
`16:39.45`	`Hanuman`	`I like the look of it, too`
`16:39.48`	`levi`	`One good feature about it, though, is the icon bouncing when you start an app.`
`16:40.32`	`sjansen`	`Hanuman: How do you define a "dock"?`
`16:40.33`	`Hanuman`	`sjansen: yo`
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`16:40.55`	`Hanuman`	`sjansen: something similar to OSX`
`16:41.12`	`Hanuman`	`I don't like the panel that goes all the way across the screen and stays there all the time`
`16:41.22`	`sjansen`	`More specific please, what features do you want.`
`16:42.28`	`Hanuman`	`ideally, animated icons, "dockable" to any part of the screen, customizable so I can can tell it what I want in my dock, transparency and shadowing would be nice, too`
`16:42.44`	`Hanuman`	`I like the animation that OSX uses`
`16:43.01`	`Hanuman`	`autohide would be nice, too`
`16:47.46`	`*** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@byu176783wks.rn.byu.edu)`
`16:48.36`	`*** join/#utah art (~art@c-67-169-246-102.client.comcast.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
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`16:49.38`	`*** join/#utah Hanuman (~jstayii@pool-141-152-52-130.rich.east.verizon.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`16:49.38`	`*** join/#utah zzzirk (~lzirkel@166.70.157.45) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
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`16:49.48`	`Hanuman`	`Jayce^: what is the true meaning of PLUG?`
`16:49.56`	`Hanuman`	`(in English)`
`16:52.21`	`*** join/#utah tensai (~tensai@dsl.dyn.02-59.budget.net)`
`16:52.42`	`sjansen`	`Portuguese (speaking) Linux Users Group`
`16:53.38`	`sjansen`	`KDE's panel has some animation, I'm not sure if you can put it on "any" part of the screen`
`16:54.34`	`sjansen`	`Gnome panels can be placed anywhere. They have autohide. The don't have to take up the entire screen. Before Gnome2.4 you had to pick the right type of panel. Starting with Gnome 2.4, it's a preference selection to have it take up less.`
`16:55.10`	`levi`	`Actually, OS X panels can be placed on an edge rather than centered, which removes some of the 'moving around' issue.`
`16:55.11`	`*** join/#utah art (~art@c-67-169-246-102.client.comcast.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`16:55.11`	`*** join/#utah bonez39 (~sanchiro@64.122.114.148) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`16:55.11`	`*** join/#utah levi_ (~levi@c-24-10-146-221.client.comcast.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`16:55.19`	`*** join/#utah sa (~sa@sa.dsl.xmission.com)`
`16:55.27`	`levi`	`I'm not sure if it's a standard option in the GUI config, but it's possible to do.`
`16:55.57`	`Hanuman`	`sjansen: yes, but gnome panels don't have animated icons`
`16:56.23`	`Hanuman`	`They just don't have the beauty of the OSX docking panel`
`16:57.10`	`levi`	`Actually, if you make the OS X dock really big and minimize a Quicktime window, you can watch the movie in the dock.`
`16:58.49`	`*** part/#utah tomeas1 (~teastmond@63-253-57-90.ip.mcleodusa.net)`
`16:59.17`	`*** join/#utah tomeas1 (~teastmond@63-253-57-90.ip.mcleodusa.net)`
`16:59.31`	`*** part/#utah tomeas1 (~teastmond@63-253-57-90.ip.mcleodusa.net)`
`16:59.36`	`*** join/#utah tomeas1 (~teastmond@63-253-57-90.ip.mcleodusa.net)`
`17:02.13`	`Hanuman`	`levi: that's what I like about the OSX dock`
`17:02.19`	`Hanuman`	`it's just the geek factor`
`17:02.23`	`Hanuman`	`http://www.usatoday.com/news/science/2003-11-13-new-life-usat_x.htm`
`17:02.35`	`Hanuman`	`interesting that they are putting it in the public domain`
`17:03.00`	`Hanuman`	`they are taking the same theory of using OSS in secure applications`
`17:03.27`	`Hanuman`	`yes, the bad guys can get to it and use it, but hopefully the good guys will work faster than the bad guys because the source is available.`
`17:07.03`	`Hanuman`	`levi: so, should I get the Treo 600 or a Powerbook?`
`17:08.18`	`neybar`	`I would go for a tippmann a5 paintball gun instead`
`17:08.55`	`Hanuman`	`over both of those?`
`17:09.23`	`neybar`	`at this particular moment in time yes... but only because I am obsessing over it`
`17:10.12`	`neybar`	`:-)`
`17:10.32`	`neybar`	`I think a powerbook would be more useful, unless you need a cell phone`
`17:11.09`	`neybar`	`not that I can afford one, but I would like a G5 based powerbook when they come out`
`17:12.24`	`Hanuman`	`I need a cellphone, too, and a new PDA, but I probably wouldn't activate the cellphone features right off until I can convince my wife to let me justify doing it.`
`17:13.00`	`Hanuman`	`My other thought is that the smartphone business is just starting to take off and next year there will probably be even better phones available in the market`
`17:13.52`	`neybar`	`isn't that true for just about any computer product you buy?`
`17:14.19`	`Hanuman`	`yeah, but I think it all depends on how much that product is going to change in how much time`
`17:15.08`	`Hanuman`	`Is it better that I get a powerbook now because it won't change too much in the next year (other than having the G5), or get the Treo which may be way outdone by something else in the next year`
`17:15.41`	`neybar`	`that is true, the powerbook has a lower chance of being obsolete next year`
`17:16.10`	`Hanuman`	`treo 600 is kind of first in its class, so it very well could be obsolete in the next year`
`17:16.28`	`Hanuman`	`I think I'm coming to a conclusion that I ought to go for the Powerbook first`
`17:17.23`	`Hanuman`	`now to convince the wife on that one`
`17:17.59`	`Hanuman`	`well, lunch time`
`17:18.02`	`Hanuman`	`!lunch`
`17:18.21`	`neybar`	`heh`
`17:32.52`	`levi`	`Having a G5 would be a significant change for a Powerbook.`
`17:36.16`	`sjansen`	`My understanding is that it'll take awhile for G5 powerbooks to show up.`
`17:36.24`	`sjansen`	`As in quite awhile.`
`17:36.52`	`sjansen`	`emcnabb: You guys were using Red Carpet, weren't you?`
`17:41.21`	`levi`	`Yeah, that's the impression I got too, since the G5s are so much more power-hungry.`
`17:41.25`	`emcnabb`	`sjansen, for a while`
`17:41.38`	`levi`	`Also so much faster, but that's the tradeoff...`
`17:41.41`	`emcnabb`	`then we ran into a lot of problems with incompatible rpms`
`17:41.50`	`emcnabb`	`apt works a lot better for us`
`17:41.54`	`sjansen`	`So what's your general opinion of it?`
`17:41.55`	`emcnabb`	`being command line and all`
`17:42.00`	`sjansen`	`Have you tried yum?`
`17:42.02`	`emcnabb`	`it is really nice`
`17:42.04`	`emcnabb`	`yeah`
`17:42.13`	`emcnabb`	`yum I think is nicers for new users than apt`
`17:42.26`	`sjansen`	`My understanding was that redhat let you push out changes from a central machine.`
`17:42.35`	`sjansen`	`apt has been more stable for me`
`17:42.39`	`sjansen`	`s/apt/yum/`
`17:42.56`	`sjansen`	`For example, yum handles forced packages and fail over nicely. Apt chokes on it.`
`17:43.04`	`emcnabb`	`if I were to give a random person a computer running Linux, I would probably install Ximain desktop 2 with redcarpet`
`17:43.04`	`sjansen`	`s/redhat/red carpet/`
`17:43.39`	`emcnabb`	`sjansen, there is a daemon program you can use`
`17:43.44`	`emcnabb`	`but i've never tried it`
`17:43.47`	`emcnabb`	`it's a good idea though`
`17:45.30`	`sjansen`	`So you guys don't have experience with pushing changes and remotely checking what packages are installed?`
`17:45.53`	`emcnabb`	`we moved away from RC right around the time the daemon was released`
`17:46.00`	`emcnabb`	`now we use system imager for all our imaging`
`17:46.02`	`emcnabb`	`it's great`
`17:46.05`	`emcnabb`	`I LOVE IT`
`17:46.13`	`emcnabb`	`it isn't perfect yet`
`17:46.21`	`emcnabb`	`but it does a lot of good stuff`
`17:46.31`	`emcnabb`	`systemimager.org`
`17:46.33`	`sjansen`	`And hardly a good solution for maintaining servers.`
`17:46.40`	`emcnabb`	`yeah`
`17:46.49`	`emcnabb`	`but that's what we use for our labs`
`17:47.08`	`sjansen`	`Any one else out there have experience pushing/monitoring server packages remotely?`
`18:05.26`	`*** join/#utah lukfugl (~kip@67.50.41.115)`
`18:06.01`	`lukfugl`	`ok, time for the daily stupid question: How do I determine the version of redhat a computer is running?`
`18:06.26`	`sa`	`cat /etc/rehat-release?`
`18:06.30`	`emcnabb`	`yeah`
`18:06.33`	`art`	`cat /etc/redhat-release`
`18:06.42`	`lukfugl`	`perfect`
`18:07.15`	`emcnabb`	`cat /etc/redhat-release`
`18:09.18`	`sa`	`cat /etc/*release :-)`
`18:09.24`	`emcnabb`	`We still need more help at the installfest tomorrow`
`18:09.26`	`emcnabb`	`please sign up`
`18:09.31`	`emcnabb`	`http://uug.byu.edu/signup.php`
`18:09.35`	`emcnabb`	`(if you can help)`
`18:09.37`	`emcnabb`	`:-)`
`18:09.44`	`emcnabb`	`Free pizza!!`
`18:09.54`	`lukfugl`	`I would, but I'm going out of town tonight. Sorry :(`
`18:10.11`	`emcnabb`	`lukfugl, that's ok, we'll still be your friend`
`18:10.30`	`lukfugl`	`:)`
`18:13.03`	`art`	`I'm gonna try to make it, but everyone (my son and my wife) are sick here.`
`18:13.07`	`art`	`we'll have to see.`
`18:13.40`	`lukfugl`	`hmmm, what's the modperl 1.2* equivalent of mp2's 'PerlOptions' directive?`
`18:14.39`	`emcnabb`	`art, if you can come that's great, but some things are gasp more important than Linux :-)`
`18:15.41`	`art`	`easy there... that's blasphemy.`
`18:15.50`	`sjansen`	`lukfugl: sa's suggestion is better because fedora has apparently renamed the file. Like was yellowdog renames the file.`
`18:16.39`	`lukfugl`	`sjansen: I found it ok (it was 7.2) but thanks for the heads up. Turns out I didn't need it anyways`
`18:17.55`	`emcnabb`	`art, :-)`
`18:20.33`	`sjansen`	`So my department has always been an HP-UX shop. We just finished doing a small test on a 4 CPU P4 2GHz+ machine. My immediate boss was quite impressed.`
`18:24.10`	`emcnabb`	`running Linux?`
`18:24.19`	`neybar`	`next you should break out at dual opteron system.. are there quad opteron boards yet?`
`18:25.56`	`sjansen`	`emcnabb: Of course.`
`18:38.00`	`neybar`	`oh yeah?`
`18:38.07`	`Jayce^`	`interesting..`
`18:38.20`	`neybar`	`random encounter, or planned meeting?`
`18:38.21`	`Jayce^`	`looks like they will be sponsoring plug, officially :)`
`18:38.23`	`Jayce^`	`planned`
`18:39.09`	`*** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ`
`18:39.11`	`neybar`	`do we want support by canopy?`
`18:39.29`	`Jayce^`	`well, they give us a nice, stable location..`
`18:39.40`	`emcnabb`	`Jayce^, are you serious?`
`18:39.44`	`Jayce^`	`and it's viawest sponsoring, but they needed the canopy permission, since they own the building`
`18:39.46`	`Jayce^`	`yup`
`18:39.50`	`emcnabb`	`after all the crap they're trying to pull?`
`18:39.56`	`neybar`	`yeah... but... that seems dirty`
`18:40.08`	`neybar`	`I'd rather find another building`
`18:40.26`	`Jayce^`	`it was funny, yarro was going on. "yeah, we love linux, we support a lot of linux companies"`
`18:40.55`	`Jayce^`	`really, it's viawest sponsoring us, but they wanted canopy's permission so we can have it be fixed, and we can get it even without a viawest person there`
`18:43.02`	`Jayce^`	`so it's viawest (who is not a canopy company) sponsoring...`
`18:43.13`	`emcnabb`	`oh, ok`
`18:43.15`	`emcnabb`	`I see`
`18:43.48`	`neybar`	`still getting canopy's permissions is odd to me, I can see that being leveraged against us some time.`
`18:43.55`	`emcnabb`	`http://www.canopy.com/`
`18:44.01`	`emcnabb`	`actually, I think they are`
`18:44.10`	`emcnabb`	`how about novell?`
`18:44.25`	`emcnabb`	`they seemed to be willing to offer facilities`
`18:44.44`	`*** part/#utah tomeas1 (~teastmond@63-253-57-90.ip.mcleodusa.net)`
`18:44.48`	`neybar`	`what about one of the school districts? or if when we get the umbrella group going and non-profit status then we can use the library`
`18:46.57`	`Jayce^`	`one nice thing.. these are way nice facilities, and a very good location.`
`18:47.15`	`Jayce^`	`ok, that's two :)`
`18:47.29`	`elg`	`good location?`
`18:47.38`	`Jayce^`	`besides, now every month we can make fun of sco across the street`
`18:47.40`	`elg`	`lindon? good for Jayce^... :)`
`18:47.58`	`Jayce^`	`elg, remember, we have a lot of members in the northern part of the county :)`
`18:48.07`	`elg`	`do we?`
`18:48.20`	`elg`	`what about the southern part?`
`18:48.35`	`Jayce^`	`it's a middle ground for most of our members`
`18:48.40`	`Jayce^`	`and right off i-15`
`18:49.17`	`elg`	`I think we should do some sort of gis thing and have people pinpoint where they live`
`18:49.23`	`elg`	`then we can know for sure. :)`
`18:49.33`	`jsmith`	`Not a bad idea...`
`18:52.00`	`Jayce^`	`mysql has some built-in stuff..`
`18:53.08`	`elg`	`grass just released last week`
`18:53.10`	`elg`	`GRASS 5.0.3`
`18:54.26`	`lukfugl`	`Jayce^: I keep trying to install LWP via CPAN and it keeps hanging on the robot/ua-get test ("HTTP Server terminated"). Any suggestions?`
`18:55.19`	`*** join/#utah synic\|home (~synic@67-40-96-230.slkc.qwest.net)`
`18:58.28`	`lukfugl`	`nevermind, setting hostname to be localhost before running the tests fixed it`
`18:58.39`	`Jayce^`	`ahh..`
`18:58.50`	`Jayce^`	`was about to say I couldnt' think of anything :)`
`18:58.53`	`Jayce^`	`guess it's dns then`
`18:59.27`	`lukfugl`	`well, not DNS, this machine has a static IP (hosted at rackspace), but there was probably something misconfigured, eg. no hostname at all`
`19:06.12`	`*** join/#utah tomeas1 (~teastmond@63-253-57-90.ip.mcleodusa.net)`
`19:08.01`	`neybar`	`does anyone know how to initialize a new database with postgres?`
`19:08.20`	`neybar`	`not the sql create database syntax`
`19:10.39`	`neybar`	`nm`
`19:24.11`	`lukfugl`	`I hate RPMs`
`19:24.14`	`sjansen`	`neybar: Got it then?`
`19:24.44`	`lukfugl`	`is apt-4-rpm available for RH7.2?`
`19:25.17`	`Hanuman`	`!a plug meeting`
`19:35.32`	`neybar`	`sjansen: yes`
`19:42.54`	`elg`	`there ought to be some way that we can make a TSP problem out of PLUG meeting location :)`
`19:43.41`	`Hanuman`	`you guys can protest once a month now right before the meeting`
`20:06.31`	`*** join/#utah levi (~levi@208.177.141.226.ptr.us.xo.net)`
`20:13.50`	`*** join/#utah el_gordo (~sa@sa.dsl.xmission.com)`
`20:48.46`	`sjansen`	`emcnabb: ping`
`20:53.11`	`Hanuman`	`wow - activestate has a nice pretty look to it now`
`20:54.07`	`Hanuman`	`Must be because Sophos owns them now`
`21:00.57`	`emcnabb`	`sjansen, pong`
`21:03.36`	`Hanuman`	`ball`
`21:08.57`	`sjansen`	`What is ipf beside internet packet filter?`
`21:09.29`	`sjansen`	`Specifically, as a command line program used during software installation?`
`21:32.35`	`*** join/#utah tensai (~tensai@dsl.dyn.02-59.budget.net)`
`21:41.57`	`*** part/#utah tomeas1 (~teastmond@63-253-57-90.ip.mcleodusa.net)`
`21:42.05`	`*** join/#utah tomeas1 (~teastmond@63-253-57-90.ip.mcleodusa.net)`
`21:42.11`	`Hanuman`	`cool - cliff from /. just e-mailed me`
`21:42.53`	`Jayce^`	`oh?`
`21:52.19`	`*** join/#utah tensai (~tensai@dsl.dyn.02-59.budget.net)`
`21:52.34`	`Hanuman`	`Jayce^: should have read it first - he was just giving me suggestions on my AOL problem I submitted to /. awhile ago`
`21:52.53`	`Hanuman`	`his basic response was "It sucks, but there's nothing you can do"`
`21:53.14`	`Hanuman`	`s/^should/I should/`
`21:54.20`	`Hanuman`	`Basically, if you are sending SMTP from a dynamic address (ie you have your own mail server on Comcast or DSL), AOL denies any mail coming from that address because it is a dynamic IP (don't know how it detects that, but it does)`
`21:55.57`	`elg`	`there's a list somewhere`
`21:56.07`	`elg`	`ranges of addresses are known to be dynamic`
`21:56.39`	`*** join/#utah fungus (~fungus@shell.aros.net)`
`21:56.40`	`elg`	`there is something you can do, though: talk someone with a mail server into setting up smtp auth`
`22:01.41`	`Jayce^`	`asking for vb programmers with strong linux/unix experience... uhhh...`
`22:01.53`	`Jayce^`	`yeah, I understand not flaming, but that is an interesting want :)`
`22:04.58`	`Hanuman`	`Jayce^: are they migrating from Windows to Linux or vice-versa?`
`22:07.08`	`Hanuman`	`I'm trying to call AOL right now to see if they can whitelist my domain`
`22:07.32`	`jsmith`	`Hanuman: Good luck... they'll tell you to send your mail through comcast's SMTP server`
`22:07.32`	`Hanuman`	`jsmith: yo`
`22:07.47`	`Hanuman`	`yeah - I know. It's worth a try, though`
`22:08.11`	`jsmith`	`Yup... as long as the phone call is on their nickel and not yours!`
`22:08.11`	`Hanuman`	`I'm a sucker for having total control over my mail`
`22:08.19`	`Hanuman`	`yeah - it is`
`22:08.26`	`bonez39`	`is there a channel devoted to mozilla?`
`22:08.43`	`bonez39`	`I need to find some answers for mozilla mail questions`
`22:10.01`	`bonez39`	`anyone use mozilla mail here? I want to make the default font, used in the compose window, to be larger when I create new email.`
`22:10.27`	`bonez39`	`or, is there a channel devoted to mutt? I'd be happy learning that if I could find some help..and yes, I RTFM...a few times`
`22:13.15`	`Hanuman`	`#mutt`
`22:13.27`	`bonez39`	`#mutt, yeah I found it...`
`22:14.37`	`*** join/#utah synic\|home (~synic@67-40-96-230.slkc.qwest.net)`
`22:19.15`	`elg`	`Hanuman: what control would you give up by sending via comcast?`
`22:19.16`	`Hanuman`	`elg: yo`
`22:24.14`	`Hanuman`	`just control over my own e-mail outgoing smtp - it's not much, but I like being able to run my own smtp server, control what comes in and goes out, etc. - it's a power (and freedom) thing`
`22:25.02`	`Hanuman`	`well, I tried with AOL. At least a request has been submitted - their users should have the power to whitelist beyond this dynamic IP block.`
`22:25.35`	`elg`	`what's to control? it goes out one way or the other. what's another level of indirection?`
`22:25.52`	`elg`	`if they mess with it, that's another story of course. Or if they muck it up all the time like BYU does :)`
`22:26.37`	`elg`	`of course you can set up your MTA to do SMTP and authenticate (or not if it's ip-based auth) to a 'smarthost' for the next hop`
`22:29.33`	`tensai`	`I agree with elg's smarthost plan. that's what we do.`
`22:36.30`	`Hanuman`	`elg: that's a good idea`
`22:36.55`	`elg`	`straight out of eximconfig. I claim no ingenuity. :)`
`22:37.15`	`Hanuman`	`that would give me secure authentication and ability for pgp on my outgoing mail (that is one other thing I want the capability of, although I haven't set it up yet)`
`22:37.25`	`Hanuman`	`Or I can just convince my parents not to use AOL`
`22:37.30`	`elg`	`you want to automatically sign all outbound mail?`
`22:37.45`	`Hanuman`	`yeah - it's just me and my wife sending`
`22:38.15`	`Hanuman`	`I still don't understand PGP completely though, so that may make absolutely no sense`
`22:38.27`	`Hanuman`	`I thought I'd try it as a learning experience`
`22:39.07`	`Hanuman`	`It's funny - AOL claims Verizon (my DSL provider) has requested that they not receive any mail from their dynamic IP's, yet I can still send mail to other Verizon customers.`
`22:43.38`	`elg`	`well in order to automatically sign you'd have to either be running some sort of gpg agent or not password-protect your secret key`
`22:44.01`	`elg`	`and anyone that could connect to your smtp server and pretend to send mail as you would get it signed for free, too`
`22:44.05`	`Hanuman`	`where does it pull the secret key from?`
`22:44.32`	`Hanuman`	`elg: I've got secure authentication and relaying only allowed from my internal subnet`
`22:44.37`	`elg`	`~/.ssh/`
`22:45.08`	`elg`	`even so, if anyone ever is on your internal subnet or hacks you they would be able to send anything and it would be signed by you.`
`22:45.47`	`Hanuman`	`they'd be able to do the same if they hacked into my desktop windows machine as well`
`22:45.48`	`elg`	`and if anyone really wanted to do that, they'd only have to do something creative like maybe hire some babysitter to get herself hired by you...`
`22:46.12`	`Hanuman`	`if they want to go through that trouble so be it`
`22:46.52`	`elg`	`one thing to be hacked - quite another to have your secret key compromised and people impersonating you with your digital signature!`
`22:46.52`	`Hanuman`	`the only way to get into my network is through my router and it only allows certain IP's through ssh, and I have a large password protecting root`
`22:47.05`	`elg`	`you'd be better off not signing your email than to let that happen.`
`22:47.16`	`Hanuman`	`exactly`
`22:47.23`	`Hanuman`	`may as well not use gpg at all then`
`22:47.38`	`elg`	`may as well not use ssh`
`22:47.40`	`elg`	`or ssl`
`22:47.49`	`Hanuman`	`that's the risk anyone takes when they use gpg`
`22:47.53`	`elg`	`too much hassle`
`22:48.03`	`elg`	`it's not a risk. your password is the weak point`
`22:48.20`	`Hanuman`	`elg: okay - I'm opening up all my ports now - my password is "bubba" hack away!`
`22:48.21`	`elg`	`if someone can get your secret key and password (both should be hard) then it's a risk. but it's not a hard one to mitigate`
`22:48.28`	`elg`	`but leaving it unprotected`
`22:48.36`	`elg`	`then all they have to do is get the secret key`
`22:49.05`	`elg`	`and they can impersonate you all day, decrypt anything that was encrypted for you, and wreak all sorts of havock`
`22:49.39`	`Hanuman`	`they could do that if they hacked into my desktop and I was just using it on my desktop too`
`22:49.48`	`Hanuman`	`like I said - that's the risk anyone takes when using gpg`
`22:49.50`	`elg`	`and all it takes is physical access (which for most people is the biggest concern because joe hacker from australia isn't interested in impersonating you - only people that know you would be)`
`22:52.14`	`Hanuman`	`gpg itself is a security risk`
`22:52.18`	`elg`	`nonsense`
`22:52.31`	`bonez39`	`Hanuman: do you use mutt? do you elg?`
`22:52.32`	`Hanuman`	`bonez39: yo`
`22:52.38`	`elg`	`yes I do`
`22:52.59`	`Hanuman`	`bonez39: when on Linux I use pine or kmail`
`22:57.25`	`bonez39`	`ah....does either allow you to do mail distribution? Here's what I mean. I have over 300 names in my outlook express email address book. if I want to send a message to those 300 entries..I just mail to "Patients" and outlook express does the mailing for me...`
`22:57.27`	`Hanuman`	`I guess I could create a certificate and require that with my own-generated key on the client machines to connect to the smtp machine`
`22:57.33`	`bonez39`	`I want my linux email client to do that for me...`
`22:59.07`	`fungus`	`Mozilla mail will do that easily, and I beleive any other gui mail client will.`
`22:59.49`	`elg`	`nobody takes the risk of being impersonated with gpg unless they're careless with their key. end of story - unless you are a high-profile person and someone has a really good reason to impersonate you. The key is to not be careless, so being impersonated with gpg is harder than the traditional non-technical methods`
`23:00.43`	`*** join/#utah art (~art@c-67-169-246-102.client.comcast.net)`
`23:05.06`	`Hanuman`	`elg: exactly, and any key can be hacked eventually - there is no fool-proof method of protecting your computer. Anything can be hacked. The secret is to make it as hard as possible for that person to hack you so they give up and move on to someone else.`
`23:05.59`	`Hanuman`	`I have a cousin who makes a living decrypting large passwords at corporations who lose them. With enough time and computer power, even an encrypted key can be hacked.`
`23:07.46`	`fungus`	`From a list of 3000 users I used L0phtcrack and got 75% of the passwords in 2 hours.`
`23:11.23`	`Hanuman`	`!elg's password`
`23:11.30`	`Hanuman`	`hah!`
`23:11.54`	`Hanuman`	`\usr\bin\perl gave me your password!`
`23:12.40`	`Hanuman`	`In all reality I think I might try the certificate method. Even Outlook supports that.`
`23:30.31`	`*** part/#utah fungus (~fungus@shell.aros.net)`
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`23:43.02`	`*** part/#utah tomeas1 (~teastmond@63-253-57-90.ip.mcleodusa.net)`

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