| 00:24.17 | *** join/#utah HarleyPig (~JS@65.105.156.40) |
| 00:24.28 | HarleyPig | Anyone willing to give me some css help? |
| 00:26.14 | ryan1 | I'm no guru, but what do you need to know? Pose the question, someone might know the answer. |
| 00:26.37 | HarleyPig | Take a look at http://www.esmartliving.com/lead/tpls/ordercontact.tpl |
| 00:27.03 | HarleyPig | Notice the City, State Zip line? For the first four, I have .field input { width: 90% } |
| 00:27.21 | HarleyPig | (The class for the second td in each row is .field) |
| 00:27.27 | bonez39 | levi: just curious..what did your eMac cost? |
| 00:27.41 | bonez39 | levi: my wife is wanting a mac of some type |
| 00:27.56 | emcnabb_ | my family just got a mac and they love |
| 00:27.57 | emcnabb_ | it |
| 00:28.06 | HarleyPig | For the City, State Zip line, I want to limit the state and zip to 2 and 10 characters and have the city input take the remaining space so it's even with the rest of the lines. |
| 00:28.09 | HarleyPig | Make sense? |
| 00:30.56 | levi | I paid $725 for my eMac, with a VGA output adapter, but that was with a 15% discount. |
| 00:34.47 | ryan1 | It lines up if I put in between the city/state/zip fields, and put in the </td> that you're missing. |
| 00:35.02 | ryan1 | the missing word is the hard space |
| 00:35.11 | ryan1 | \ |
| 00:35.48 | ryan1 | Harley: if I put a hard space inbetween fields is what I'm trying to say. |
| 00:36.17 | ryan1 | Harley: of course, that doesn't seem to fix it under Mozilla... |
| 00:36.40 | HarleyPig | Ok ... I added that ... thanks. But it still doesn't fix the city field the way I want. |
| 00:37.16 | HarleyPig | I want the State and Zip fields to always be to the far right, and the beginning of the city field to always line up with the other fields on the left. |
| 00:37.54 | HarleyPig | If you resize the window you'll see what I mean. |
| 00:38.42 | HarleyPig | I s'pose I could hardcode the size using em's ... but I don't really understand them yet. |
| 00:39.38 | levi | bonez39: If you go to the Apple Store online, you can price one out. Other retailers will often throw in some free RAM or a printer or something if you buy from them, though. |
| 00:40.02 | bonez39 | ok..... |
| 00:40.35 | HarleyPig | Can anyone give me a decent explanation of what an em is? I think it's a relative size based on font ... |
| 00:44.32 | levi | I think it's the width of an 'm' in the font, or something like that. |
| 00:46.48 | *** join/#utah jakea (~jakea@jakea.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 00:46.52 | levi | Actually, the width of the uppercase 'M' in the current font and point size. |
| 00:47.16 | HarleyPig | OH! It's the average width of letters in a font. I get it now ... wierd how you just beat your head against something and someone makes a simple comment and it coalesces. |
| 00:47.49 | levi | And the point size for a font is the same as the em value. |
| 00:48.05 | levi | So an em in Courier 12 point is... 12 points. :) |
| 00:48.15 | HarleyPig | So ... if I did .field input { width: 30em } expecting 30 characters per field ... |
| 00:48.45 | HarleyPig | yeah. That I knew ... but are points and ems related that way? I thought a point was a fixed value, while an em is realtive, based on the font. |
| 00:48.47 | levi | The uppercase M is typically the widest letter, IIRC, so that should work. |
| 00:49.36 | levi | HarleyPig: The point size of the font depends on that font's em size. That's how font size is defined. |
| 00:50.55 | levi | If you specify a certain number of points in your stylesheet, and the user changes to a 14 point font, then you won't have enough room. |
| 00:51.13 | levi | If you base it on ems, then it scales with font size increases. |
| 00:51.14 | HarleyPig | I thought a point was 1/72" |
| 00:51.42 | levi | Yes. A point is a fixed measurement. The em varies depending on your font. |
| 00:51.53 | levi | But an em for a 12-point font is always 12. |
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| 00:52.04 | levi | Always 12 points, that is. |
| 00:52.14 | levi | An em for a 14 point font is 14 points. |
| 00:52.50 | HarleyPig | Ok ... I think I'm understanding it. |
| 00:53.10 | levi | So... say you want room for 30 chars. You're using a 12 point font, so 12*30 gives you your point size for the field. |
| 00:53.29 | levi | You put that number in your CSS file, and then it looks fine with the 12 point font you specified. |
| 00:53.59 | levi | But when the user overrides your font choice with a 16 point font, suddenly there's not enough room and the text spills out of your space. |
| 00:54.27 | levi | If you defined the size of the field as 30 ems, it scales up when the font changes to 16 points. |
| 00:54.49 | HarleyPig | Well nutz. then I can't do what I want with ems. |
| 00:54.55 | levi | What did you want to do? |
| 00:55.21 | HarleyPig | Check out http://www.esmartliving.com/lead/tpls/ordercontact.tpl The City, State Zip fields don't match the rest of the lins. |
| 00:55.46 | HarleyPig | I want the city field to dynamically stretch so that the three fields combined are the same width as the other fields. |
| 00:56.07 | HarleyPig | state and zip are limited by the size attribute to 2 and 10, respectively. |
| 00:56.53 | HarleyPig | I did have .field input { width: 90% } but I just experimented with ems so that's been changed. |
| 00:57.07 | levi | Hrm, that just opens as text in mozilla. |
| 00:57.19 | HarleyPig | Wonderful |
| 00:57.30 | Jayce^ | HarleyPig, you breaking things again? |
| 00:57.39 | HarleyPig | Oh ... let me change the extension. |
| 00:57.48 | HarleyPig | Jayce^: when am I not? |
| 00:57.53 | Jayce^ | exactly. |
| 00:58.16 | HarleyPig | http://www.esmartliving.com/lead/tpls/ordercontact.html |
| 00:58.18 | Jayce^ | so bbeattie's demo on mythtv today was friggen sweet! |
| 00:58.41 | levi | HarleyPig: 404 |
| 00:58.52 | HarleyPig | Try again ... I mistyped. |
| 00:59.03 | HarleyPig | (the cp, not the link pasted here). |
| 01:07.13 | HarleyPig | Any ideas? |
| 01:07.21 | HarleyPig | Or am I spitting in the wind? |
| 01:07.23 | hans | HarleyPig: so you want the City,State,Zip line to be on one line? |
| 01:07.46 | HarleyPig | Yeah ... and I want City to dynamically take up whatever space is left. |
| 01:08.37 | hans | oh, the boxes, not the label |
| 01:08.50 | HarleyPig | Yeah. Sorry bout that. :/ |
| 01:16.05 | hans | isn't there a way to say something is whatever size fills it up? |
| 01:17.17 | HarleyPig | percentage? |
| 01:17.36 | HarleyPig | Or * ... hmmm ... |
| 01:18.34 | HarleyPig | Well, that's closer I think. |
| 01:18.49 | HarleyPig | No ... now it stays the same size regardless. |
| 01:21.58 | HarleyPig | Hmmm ... there's auto, but that doesn't seem to do anything either. |
| 01:23.15 | HarleyPig | levi: The CSS doesn't describe ems the wya you did. |
| 01:23.44 | levi | Well, the way I described them is how they work in typography. CSS may be doing something funky. |
| 01:24.46 | HarleyPig | :> It's 1em per point size ... so a 3ems in a 12 point font would be 36points. |
| 01:25.36 | HarleyPig | Ummm ... nevermind. |
| 01:25.41 | HarleyPig | That's exactly what you said. |
| 01:25.49 | levi | Yeah. |
| 01:27.15 | HarleyPig | Hmmm It just doesn't look like I can do this with CSS1. |
| 01:28.29 | HarleyPig | Well ... if I defined the other fields as 30em's ... why wouldn't defining the city field as 18em's work? Or 16, considering the spaces between the fields. |
| 01:30.05 | *** join/#utah Bradipo (~amb@ip-64-32-156-231.dsl.lax.megapath.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 01:30.46 | HarleyPig | Hey! I type in 20em by mistake and it's even. How come? |
| 01:31.17 | HarleyPig | Well, it's slightly larger. |
| 01:37.25 | levi | If you defined all the sizes in the table in terms of ems, then you could make it work. It's mixing percentages with ems that makes it difficult. |
| 01:46.57 | levi | Well, time for me to head home. |
| 01:50.07 | HarleyPig | That makes sense. |
| 02:00.06 | emcnabb_ | http://uug.byu.edu/announcements.php?show=23 |
| 02:04.51 | hans | :) |
| 02:05.07 | emcnabb_ | hans, so you like the idea? |
| 02:12.49 | Jayce^ | lol |
| 02:30.57 | hans | emcnabb_: yeah. :) |
| 02:31.13 | hans | so I want to do a dialog somewhat similar to this: http://falcon.fugal.net/fugalh/tmp/mc_recipe.jpg |
| 02:31.46 | hans | but the toolkit I'm using doesn't have an editable table (spreadsheet) widget - although it has a display-only table widget |
| 02:31.49 | hans | what would you do? |
| 02:45.05 | emcnabb_ | not sure |
| 02:55.14 | *** join/#utah uugDave (~dave@12-254-215-72.client.attbi.com) |
| 02:55.57 | uugDave | Building a kernel 2.6-test9 right now on RH8. Can anyone confirm that this is possible without any funky initrd tools changes or anything else that might disturb my system? |
| 02:56.14 | *** part/#utah ryan1 (~ryan@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 02:57.33 | *** join/#utah uugDave (~dave@12-254-215-72.client.attbi.com) |
| 02:57.48 | uugDave | s/segault/segfault/ |
| 02:57.53 | emcnabb_ | oh |
| 02:57.55 | emcnabb_ | ok |
| 02:58.00 | Jayce^ | hans, what toolkit? |
| 02:58.05 | emcnabb_ | uugDave, how are you doing? |
| 02:58.20 | Jayce^ | so, anybody have a nat/firewall script preference (going to be on debian).. |
| 02:58.35 | Jayce^ | bonus points if it knows how to handle multiple outbound connections. |
| 02:58.54 | uugDave | I can make the grade with an extremely simple NAT script that I like, but no multi-outbound stuff. |
| 02:58.58 | uugDave | Still want it? |
| 02:59.09 | Jayce^ | yeah, I'll compare it.. |
| 02:59.13 | uugDave | ~insult emcnabb_ |
| 02:59.20 | uugDave | Pastng now, it's real small: |
| 02:59.22 | emcnabb_ | ~charity uugDave |
| 02:59.26 | Jayce^ | I've been using one for a while, but now that I'm switching boxes, something else would be nice |
| 02:59.35 | uugDave | #!/bin/bash |
| 02:59.35 | uugDave | # This is a bare-bones NAT script. It will setup NAT |
| 02:59.35 | uugDave | # and do no firewalling other than that. |
| 02:59.36 | uugDave | # The network card that plugs into the internet |
| 02:59.38 | uugDave | OUT_INTERFACE=wlan0 |
| 02:59.39 | emcnabb_ | ~be_kind_to uugDave |
| 02:59.40 | uugDave | # The network card that plugs into your local network |
| 02:59.42 | uugDave | IN_INTERFACE=eth0 |
| 02:59.46 | uugDave | echo Flushing and initializing iptables... |
| 02:59.50 | uugDave | iptables --flush |
| 02:59.52 | uugDave | iptables --table nat --flush |
| 02:59.54 | uugDave | iptables --delete-chain |
| 02:59.56 | uugDave | iptables --table nat --delete-chain |
| 03:00.00 | uugDave | echo Setting up IP-masquerading/NAT... |
| 03:00.04 | uugDave | iptables --table nat --append POSTROUTING --out-interface $OUT_INTERFACE -j MASQUERADE |
| 03:00.07 | uugDave | iptables --append FORWARD --in-interface $IN_INTERFACE -j ACCEPT |
| 03:00.08 | uugDave | echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward |
| 03:00.12 | uugDave | echo Done! |
| 03:00.14 | uugDave | ~ |
| 03:00.17 | Jayce^ | pretty similar to mine |
| 03:00.19 | uugDave | ~ |
| 03:00.21 | Jayce^ | hehe |
| 03:00.24 | uugDave | ~ |
| 03:00.26 | uugDave | ~ibot insult emcnabb_ |
| 03:00.30 | uugDave | What's that iBot running? Win32? |
| 03:01.00 | uugDave | Yup, it's about as basic as it gets. I have one that does actual firewalling and port-redirection, but it's basically the same old. |
| 03:01.58 | Jayce^ | looking at shorewall possibly, anybody got any opinions on it? |
| 03:02.09 | emcnabb_ | oh man!!! |
| 03:02.17 | emcnabb_ | frank got some stuff from the courts today |
| 03:02.30 | emcnabb_ | he's the big anti-sco guy out here for groklaw |
| 03:02.44 | emcnabb_ | he has a doc that has file names of "stolen code" |
| 03:02.45 | jakea | sco is suing frank? |
| 03:02.48 | Jayce^ | oh yeah, what's debians default way to setup networking, what files in sysconfig does it need to say what is dhcp, and what is static? |
| 03:02.58 | emcnabb_ | no, but frank gets all the docs for groklaw |
| 03:03.08 | Jayce^ | nothing is currently in there.. :( |
| 03:03.09 | emcnabb_ | this hasn't been posted anywhere |
| 03:03.14 | Jayce^ | wow, so what filenames :) |
| 03:03.15 | emcnabb_ | http://pel.cs.byu.edu/~sorenson/SCO/Docs/SCO-IBM/Doc-63-A.pdf |
| 03:03.20 | emcnabb_ | take a look |
| 03:03.28 | emcnabb_ | this will be hitting grolaw soon |
| 03:03.58 | hans | Jayce^: FXRuby. for firewalls I use ferm |
| 03:04.16 | Jayce^ | hans, no help for fx, got a link for ferm? |
| 03:04.25 | jakea | wholey |
| 03:04.26 | hans | apt-cache show ferm :) |
| 03:04.34 | emcnabb_ | frank rocks |
| 03:04.37 | hans | http://ferm.sourceforge.net/ |
| 03:04.38 | jakea | so this is evidently the files that infring? |
| 03:04.44 | emcnabb_ | yeah |
| 03:04.59 | jakea | holy crap |
| 03:05.13 | hans | Jayce^: /etc/network/interfaces |
| 03:05.13 | uugDave | Debian doesn't use sysconfig. It uses /etc/networking/interfaces of something like that. |
| 03:05.15 | hans | man interfaces |
| 03:05.31 | uugDave | Have you looked at firestarter. |
| 03:05.42 | hans | i did, didn't like it |
| 03:05.50 | Jayce^ | yeah, not quite what I want, especially on a server with no gui :)\ |
| 03:05.55 | uugDave | Right on. |
| 03:06.08 | uugDave | I love X-less Debian boxes. It's the best way to run Debian :) |
| 03:06.19 | jakea | holy crap |
| 03:06.34 | Jayce^ | ok, so why do they flattent the dirs, and make them use . |
| 03:06.38 | uugDave | It's too bad, emcnabb_, that your laptop died or I'd be begging you for a .config right about now :) |
| 03:06.48 | Jayce^ | jfs.* :) |
| 03:07.42 | Jayce^ | irq.c :) yeah that's a real sco original |
| 03:07.45 | emcnabb_ | uugDave, kernel conf? |
| 03:07.52 | uugDave | hehe |
| 03:07.55 | Jayce^ | mach!? |
| 03:08.10 | uugDave | Wow, make menuconfig has an option for 10, 100, 1000, AND 10,000 Mbit ethernet devices! |
| 03:08.24 | uugDave | Sheesh, I want a 10,000Mbit network... |
| 03:08.28 | uugDave | 10 gigabit... |
| 03:08.42 | Jayce^ | talked to some unisys developers today at CTS.. |
| 03:08.48 | jakea | evan, can I share that doc? |
| 03:09.07 | uugDave | Nice, 2.6 has atmel in the kernel. Very nice for you Linksys USB wireless owners out there. |
| 03:09.14 | emcnabb_ | hold on on sharing it |
| 03:09.17 | Jayce^ | they were mentioning that the latest unisys box, 32 64bit procs, made for win 2003, does run linux, although they are not officially allowed to say that :) |
| 03:09.25 | emcnabb_ | by tomorrow morning you can |
| 03:09.26 | jakea | k |
| 03:09.32 | emcnabb_ | that's just for us Utah geeks for now |
| 03:09.34 | emcnabb_ | :-) |
| 03:09.43 | jakea | I was going to show it to Phil, who was formally a Utah geek |
| 03:10.07 | jakea | the one that was on the list for a while that was good a lighting flame wars |
| 03:10.11 | uugDave | Wow, 32-way at 64 bits? And it does run Linux? Linux sure has come a long way. |
| 03:10.22 | uugDave | Good old Phil. |
| 03:10.56 | jakea | (as if we need any help at times) |
| 03:12.18 | jakea | man, I already planned going to provo Friday, I'm going to wear my anti-SCO shirt now |
| 03:12.41 | uugDave | So, by default Linux 2.6 has MinixFS enabled. Weird? |
| 03:12.44 | uugDave | Does anyone use that?> |
| 03:12.56 | emcnabb_ | uugDave, me |
| 03:12.59 | uugDave | Besides Andrew Tannenbaum (the most commonly misspelled name on the Internet) |
| 03:14.11 | uugDave | So, back to my first question: This 2.6 kernel gonna work without horking my system to support it? |
| 03:14.22 | uugDave | Ie, out of the box (s/box/bz2/) |
| 03:15.15 | jakea | FYI emcnabb_ it looks like it was the board on my laptop |
| 03:15.30 | uugDave | jakea: new machine already dying? |
| 03:15.31 | jakea | I am indeed in your world |
| 03:15.47 | jakea | it was like 1 year 3 months old |
| 03:15.53 | uugDave | Ouch. |
| 03:15.55 | jakea | so warrenty was up |
| 03:16.06 | uugDave | I'm using that same old pile, hoping 2.6 will breath new life into it... |
| 03:16.15 | uugDave | I'm 3 years, 3 months in. |
| 03:16.39 | uugDave | By the way, listening to the new Barenaked Ladies CD, pure delight, great stuff. |
| 03:16.43 | jakea | next time, for a laptop, I'm getting the extended warranty |
| 03:17.00 | uugDave | No question. 3 years minimum. |
| 03:17.19 | uugDave | That's what I did and I never regretted that it cost me $300. I had probably $1500 worth of repairs done, on-site. |
| 03:17.59 | uugDave | any Russian speakers here tonight that would be willing to maintain a smallish translation file for phpLDAPadmin? |
| 03:18.35 | Jayce^ | wish I had the three year, definately getting that next time |
| 03:18.41 | uugDave | Could use an Italian speaker as well.. |
| 03:19.11 | Jayce^ | don't speak either of those |
| 03:19.28 | uugDave | jayce^, Could you learn before the end of next week? |
| 03:19.40 | Jayce^ | ooh, maybe, nah, gotta get some work done :) |
| 03:19.51 | Jayce^ | heh, the ferm guy is on the lunar team |
| 03:20.46 | uugDave | Ooo, 70 more downloads and phpLDAPadmin breaks 5,000. Since August 12th. Who woulda thought that people would actually <B>use</B> this thing... |
| 03:21.05 | uugDave | Looks like Nigerian email scams actually work pretty well for advertising OS projects... |
| 03:21.21 | jakea | okay, this new route Y is buggy and confusing |
| 03:21.30 | uugDave | Route Y? I thought you graduated. |
| 03:22.19 | uugDave | Anyone notice the Cougaar agent system announced on /. a couple days ago? Anyone use or heard of that before? |
| 03:22.38 | jakea | oh, you have not heard (because you left UUG list) |
| 03:22.49 | Jayce^ | haven't used it, just saw thte post |
| 03:22.50 | jakea | I am returning to get my Ph D. |
| 03:23.35 | uugDave | Jake, that's great! Physics/Astronomy? |
| 03:23.46 | jakea | yep |
| 03:23.55 | hans | jakea: don't get me started. there was an article on it today in the daily universe |
| 03:24.32 | Jayce^ | so, all you gaim users.. |
| 03:24.39 | jakea | yep |
| 03:24.57 | Jayce^ | should note that neybar_work released his new version of his text-to-speech plugin for gaim |
| 03:25.04 | Jayce^ | works with the newer versions of gaim |
| 03:25.08 | Jayce^ | using festival |
| 03:25.09 | hans | basically went like this: Students hate the new Route Y (esp. AIM), newspaper gears up to bash it and does some asking around, oooh route y was overhauled to be more accessible (in the Politically Correct sense), so students love route y because it is so good |
| 03:26.02 | emcnabb_ | ~slashdot |
| 03:26.06 | hans | the biggest downhill step is the switch to needing to hit "GO" after changing drop-down selections |
| 03:26.18 | jakea | it's buggy, I tried to get into the directory today, I logged in, tried to get to it, it said I did not have the perms |
| 03:27.19 | hans | that was advocated in the article for accessibility reasons. What they don't realize or say is that while including a button or something to activate is a good thing, their UI STINKS. having a go button does not make it good, nor is it an excuse for not having a better UI. |
| 03:27.33 | hans | </soapbox> |
| 03:28.05 | Jayce^ | anybody need a comment modded? |
| 03:28.54 | uugDave | For 6 years, I've used that nice black RY login screen, and now they went and shattered my world! |
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| 03:29.14 | uugDave | Where have I seen that red thing they've got for an icon before? |
| 03:31.15 | uugDave | Why did they loose the handy icons for each sub-category at the interchange screen? Those were really handy since it seemed like the links changed lcoations all the tim... |
| 03:34.49 | uugDave | Sheesh, still compiling... |
| 03:39.09 | *** join/#utah Jayce^ (~Jayce^@65.218.37.31) |
| 03:40.55 | uugDave | Oh well, better go. See ya. |
| 03:41.23 | *** part/#utah uugDave (~dave@12-254-215-72.client.attbi.com) |
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| 06:04.19 | jayce | hans you there? |
| 06:04.25 | jayce | here |
| 06:04.42 | jayce | ok, so I have this debain box that I just set up for my server.. |
| 06:04.58 | jayce | had it upstairs working fine, then I brought it down and swapped it with my gateway |
| 06:05.25 | jayce | after putting it in, I have now lost the ability to hit anything in my internal network |
| 06:05.35 | jayce | 192.168.0.1 can't see .2 |
| 06:05.39 | jayce | and vice versa |
| 06:05.55 | jayce | for a bit, .1 could get to .2, but .2 couldn't get to .1 ?! |
| 06:06.43 | jayce | anybody have any ideas? |
| 06:09.59 | jakea | obvious question.... same submask? |
| 06:12.21 | jayce | yeah |
| 06:12.37 | jayce | 192.168.0.0 255.255.255.0 |
| 06:13.31 | jayce | .1 is the gateway box (this router) and .2 is the workstation I'm testing from |
| 06:14.31 | jakea | next obvious question... gateway set right? |
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| 06:21.00 | jayce | seems so |
| 06:21.35 | jayce | pinging out from this box doesn't seem to create traffic on the hub now |
| 06:23.00 | jayce | iptables --list nothing in input forward or output |
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| 07:58.51 | Jayce^ | well, finally figured it out |
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| 08:49.31 | Jayce^ | ~spell naseau |
| 08:49.37 | | possible spellings for naseau: Nassau nausea NASA Nasser Nisei nisei Nashua |
| 08:53.15 | brailsmt | so you should specify, naseau as in vomitting, or naseau as in the space progam :D |
| 08:53.58 | brailsmt | thats the funniest irc bot-ism i have seen in a long time :) |
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| 09:56.47 | *** join/#utah Hanuman (~jstayii@pool-209-158-221-13.rich.east.verizon.net) |
| 14:07.22 | hans | Jayce^: what was the trouble? |
| 15:21.34 | Hanuman | Sweet! Sept 2004 is the date I guess. |
| 15:21.37 | Hanuman | ~slashdot |
| 15:22.12 | Hanuman | dang it - it doesn't show it - I'm referring to Starwars original trilogy DVD release |
| 15:53.43 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@byu176783wks.rn.byu.edu) |
| 16:00.53 | Jayce^ | hans, a @#$#@ neighbor has a netgear router on the wire, but the wrong way.. so it was trying to take over the router's IP, and be a dhcp too |
| 16:04.26 | *** join/#utah tensai (~tensai@dsl.dyn.02-59.budget.net) |
| 16:05.28 | hans | heh |
| 16:06.26 | hans | hmm. i wonder how my manpages-dev package got uninstalled. no wonder I couldn't access my manpages in section 2 |
| 16:31.35 | Hanuman | the e-mail I just sent out shows the complete misunderstanding that Windows users have of Linux |
| 16:31.57 | Hanuman | yet he seems to think that Linux users don't understand Windows (which I agree some don't) |
| 16:56.39 | Jayce^ | hans, does apt-get take wildcards? say apt-get remove amanda-* |
| 17:02.43 | neybar_work | Jayce^: do you know how to access the logout or lockscreen applet for kde from the cli |
| 17:03.34 | Jayce^ | no |
| 17:05.45 | *** join/#utah Jayce^ (~Jayce^@65.218.37.130) |
| 17:08.48 | levi | I wonder if you can send DCOP messages to them. |
| 17:09.32 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@128.187.136.156) |
| 17:11.42 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
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| 17:13.44 | *** part/#utah Ajorge (~Ajorge@panda.byu.edu) |
| 17:13.58 | Hanuman | Jayce^: I think it does - at least I think I remember using it with wildcards before |
| 17:15.29 | Jayce^ | well, I just don't want the expansion done on the shell.. |
| 17:21.28 | Hanuman | not sure about that. I do remember doing apt-get remove gnome-* and ximian* when I installed kde |
| 17:23.45 | tensai | Jayce^: use amanda-\* or 'amanda-*'. I dunno if that'll work with apt, but the shell will ignore the *. |
| 17:24.24 | Jayce^ | yup, that worked tensai |
| 17:24.42 | emcnabb | http://www.1funny.com/images/ninjalawyers.jpg |
| 17:31.11 | Jayce^ | emcnabb, that's pretty dang funny |
| 17:33.59 | emcnabb | :-) |
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| 17:51.53 | sjansen | emcnabb: We need a copy of your program for testing. |
| 17:51.58 | sjansen | Could you email it to me? |
| 17:57.38 | levi | http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20031106164630915 |
| 17:57.44 | levi | "The Grinch Who Stole Linux" |
| 18:03.13 | hans | :) |
| 18:31.05 | sjansen | I just got mail from one of the vendors we deal with. Among other things, they say they plan on "Adding multi-lingual Customer Support Engineers". |
| 18:31.21 | sjansen | My question: does that mean they're going to start hiring people that speak English? |
| 18:32.58 | Jayce^ | http://www.starwarskid.com/a_new_hope.html |
| 18:33.06 | Jayce^ | best star wars kid video I've ever seen |
| 18:36.09 | Hanuman | Why is it that more and more I keep getting Indian accents when I call customer support? Does the cost really justify the loss of customer satisfaction? |
| 18:36.56 | hans | i thought you liked Indians? |
| 18:37.51 | Bradipo | Not when they are incompetent or only read a script and don't think. |
| 18:38.17 | hans | i don't like americans that do that either, of course. |
| 18:38.31 | hans | i think he's mad they're outsourcing |
| 18:39.36 | sjansen | I'm upset when I call someone or they call me and I can't understand them. When they respond to a trouble ticket and their grammar doesn't approach anything recognizable by my parser. |
| 18:39.39 | bonez39 | hans: have you made any calls where the call is taken by a call center in India? I have run into several of those....lately |
| 18:40.01 | hans | i must admit I haven't. |
| 18:40.07 | bonez39 | how lame...the person, no disrespect intended, rarely knows the culture or background and can't ever seem to provide the desired answer |
| 18:40.29 | bonez39 | Hanuman: that's just it..they are outsourcing en masse to india.. |
| 18:40.42 | hans | sounds like more than an indian accent - you're talking barely comprehensible or not comprehensible |
| 18:40.53 | hans | there is a difference |
| 18:40.54 | bonez39 | I finally asked one lady...so where's your call center...she said...$%^&*() something.., India. |
| 18:41.27 | bonez39 | true....these people I have reached can speak english fine..but they don't quite comprehend my questions, despite asking them several times |
| 18:42.13 | emcnabb | sjansen, can you unblock me from IM so I can talk to you there? :-) |
| 18:43.09 | Jayce^ | it's even worse when it's a telemarketer that talks like that |
| 18:43.30 | *** join/#utah RyanE (~ryan@65.73.184.226) |
| 18:44.20 | emcnabb | Jayce^, there sure have been a lot of people on #utah these days |
| 18:44.53 | RyanE | good advertising |
| 18:45.23 | RyanE | during the last UUG meeting, many were listening on the OGG feed, and watching #utah. |
| 18:45.27 | RyanE | some of us have come back. |
| 18:45.34 | Hanuman | I like the Indians as I like all cultures - I just don't understand why a company would use them as the frontline to talk to their customers |
| 18:45.47 | RyanE | $$$$$ |
| 18:46.12 | Hanuman | I can understand a technical job or similar, but someone who lives in India cannot understand the culture, nor respect a customer as well as an American living in the US can |
| 18:47.08 | Hanuman | I've almost asked people with the bad accents that I have called to get me to someone who can speak English, talking to them was so bad |
| 18:47.38 | RyanE | Han: I don't know if I agree with all of it (if you can understand their english)... I haven't been well respected or understood by an american support person. We once had an SCO (the old SCO) tech person tell us to sacrifice a cat. |
| 18:48.11 | Jayce^ | yeah, it's good |
| 18:48.44 | Hanuman | RyanE: I agree, but most of the out-of-country support I've experienced has not been as friendly as the in-country support |
| 18:48.53 | Jayce^ | Hanuman, if everybodies service is bad and outsources though, people will find it normal :) |
| 18:48.59 | Hanuman | in-country has its bad-apples, but out-of-country has many more |
| 18:49.11 | Hanuman | Jayce^: that's what I fear |
| 18:49.26 | emcnabb | RyanE, well, we're glad to have you here :-) |
| 18:49.43 | RyanE | bad apples != ignorant apples. I'd argue that american support has more truly bad apples, outsourced to India has more ignorant / no-speakie-english. |
| 18:49.57 | RyanE | emcnabb: thanks. I'm in a boring meeting... I'm glad to be here. |
| 18:50.40 | sjansen | emcnabb: Promise to behave? |
| 18:50.59 | Hanuman | I can handle the bad-apples I guess. I just don't like trying to get someone who can't understand my form of English to understand and solve the problem I'm having |
| 18:51.13 | bonez39 | RyanE: just imagine..those in your meeting think you are just so diligent..typing notes so quick..they are sure you are trying to capture their every word... |
| 18:51.23 | Hanuman | At least the bad-apples understand when I'm frustrated and angry at them |
| 18:51.29 | bonez39 | Hanuman: that's exactly the problem I find... |
| 18:51.46 | RyanE | naw, the whole back row are developers. They know what I'm doing. |
| 18:51.48 | bonez39 | the language is there, but the subtle underlying intention is lost..the connotation is garbled.. |
| 18:52.00 | Hanuman | exactly |
| 18:52.05 | bonez39 | RyanE: are you online via a wireless card? |
| 18:52.12 | RyanE | yep |
| 18:52.23 | RyanE | bonez: can you tell? |
| 18:52.51 | Hanuman | don't get me wrong - I am very much for world-capitalism and outsourcing if it's cheaper - I just don't understand how it's worth risking your frontline to your customers, though |
| 18:53.18 | emcnabb | sjansen, yes |
| 18:53.35 | emcnabb | RyanE, haha, have fun in your meeting |
| 18:53.47 | RyanE | I have a friend who recently relocated to India to run one such Call Center. He works for MS. Makes sense for them. They don't care about their customers. |
| 18:53.49 | bonez39 | RyanE: no, I can't tell..just am jealous.....I need to get a wireless access point (wap??) for home.... |
| 18:56.23 | Hanuman | RyanE: I'm considering starting my own business contracting programmers in Thailand sometime - I think there's a lot of business in out-of-country outsourcing at the moment. |
| 18:56.54 | Hanuman | I've got to get the money to travel over there first, though |
| 18:57.51 | Hanuman | I've got a friend in my parents' ward up in Northern VA that does something similar to that - makes very good money selling his services to other companies. |
| 18:58.20 | RyanE | so you just meet-n-greet, then get out of the way, or do you manage the project during development? |
| 19:00.12 | Hanuman | not sure yet - I think I would want to be somewhat very involved in knowing what is going on in development rather than meet-n-greet. With the long-distances, differences in laws, and security concerns I would want to be sure all code was top-notch for clients. |
| 19:00.45 | RyanE | yeah. I would imagine programming could multiply the cultural differences. |
| 19:00.50 | Hanuman | That's why I need to get a good amount of money first for trips to Thailand so I could travel there frequently and meet with programmers there. |
| 19:01.00 | RyanE | i.e. give them a spec, etc., you wouldn't get what you expected. |
| 19:01.07 | Hanuman | yeah - definitely |
| 19:01.43 | Hanuman | I think I would want to assume role of lead developer over everything rather than just a pointy-haired boss so I have more control over the code |
| 19:01.58 | RyanE | yep. |
| 19:02.22 | Hanuman | I've had a dream since my mission to start something in a really small town I served in that kept losing members because they couldn't find jobs there and had to move to Bangkok |
| 19:02.35 | RyanE | many programmers available in the small town? |
| 19:02.50 | Hanuman | I know a couple - there were several computer stores I know |
| 19:03.06 | Hanuman | It's a college-town so alot of students as well |
| 19:05.48 | Hanuman | I think we would want a code-review process of some sort where all code submitted was reviewed in some form or fashion before going to the client |
| 19:12.11 | *** join/#utah synic|home (~synic@65-100-247-91.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 19:55.45 | *** join/#utah synic (~synic@65-100-247-91.slkc.qwest.net) |
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| 20:08.24 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
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| 20:11.07 | emcnabb | ~lart hans |
| 20:11.17 | emcnabb | ~lart hans |
| 20:11.36 | emcnabb | ~whaleslap Jayce^ |
| 20:11.39 | | ACTION slaps Jayce^ upside and over the head with one freakishly huge killer whale named hugh |
| 20:12.19 | emcnabb | ~whaleslap ibot |
| 20:12.22 | | ACTION slaps ibot upside and over the head with one freakishly huge killer whale named hugh |
| 20:12.22 | sjansen | ~emcnabb? |
| 20:12.24 | | from memory, emcnabb is hooked on bzflag, or a lart happy jerk, or a lamer |
| 20:15.34 | Hanuman | I don't remember whaleslap in the help for ibot - did you program that one in? |
| 20:18.40 | emcnabb | ~whaleslap Hanuman |
| 20:18.43 | | ACTION slaps Hanuman upside and over the head with one freakishly huge killer whale named hugh |
| 20:22.19 | Jayce^ | ~Jayce^ |
| 20:22.21 | | you are, like, the president (ha) of the Provo Linux Users Group (http://www.plug.org) or a Perl Monger or the punk going to OSCON or a few electrons short a charge. |
| 20:34.15 | Hanuman | why can't I lock my nick? |
| 20:34.19 | Hanuman | ~Hanuman |
| 20:34.21 | | somebody said hanuman was using windows |
| 20:34.42 | Hanuman | actually, this IRC is going through linux over ssh |
| 20:35.41 | Hanuman | when I "lock Hanuman" it says "sorry, you are not allowed to lock 'hanuman'." |
| 20:36.23 | Hanuman | Is it because of the capital "H"? |
| 20:46.26 | RyanE | Time for a little Asteroids. |
| 20:55.35 | emcnabb | anyone know of a good online ruby tutorial? |
| 20:55.46 | Jayce^ | www.perl.com :) |
| 20:55.50 | emcnabb | haha |
| 20:56.00 | emcnabb | I just want to test it out |
| 20:56.23 | emcnabb | it's pretty differet than most languages (from what I can tell) |
| 21:01.46 | Jayce^ | dangit, can't get my sounds to allow two programs to play at once |
| 21:01.47 | sjansen | ruby-lang.org has some free books |
| 21:01.56 | Jayce^ | using alsa |
| 21:03.27 | neybar_work | emcnabb: you might like IO check out iolanguages.com I haven't used it yet, but it looks intriguing |
| 21:03.35 | hans | emcnabb: check out the "Programming Ruby" book |
| 21:03.45 | hans | (online) just search in google |
| 21:04.06 | hans | Jayce^: and you did before? |
| 21:04.21 | sjansen | neybar_work: He has to learn ruby because of a project my team wrote for school. |
| 21:04.35 | neybar_work | ah |
| 21:04.48 | emcnabb | I've actually been wanting to mess with it for a while now |
| 21:04.57 | hans | and there's always #ruby-lang for questions |
| 21:05.10 | emcnabb | if you guys hadn't done Ruby I would want to do your group ;-) |
| 21:05.24 | Jayce^ | hans, yeah.. |
| 21:05.28 | Jayce^ | using arts... |
| 21:05.34 | Hanuman | emcnabb: while you're in there get what's his name - the creator of ruby to join ldsoss |
| 21:06.43 | emcnabb | haha |
| 21:07.38 | hans | Jayce^: so it's arts that isn't working? |
| 21:07.39 | Hanuman | Matz - that's his name |
| 21:07.39 | sjansen | Matz |
| 21:07.39 | synic | any debian users in here? |
| 21:07.51 | sjansen | ~lart Debian |
| 21:07.51 | hans | (I don't like arts, but I'll put my prejudice aside) |
| 21:08.02 | Hanuman | ~Debian |
| 21:08.03 | | from memory, debian is a Linux-Distribution (http://www.debian.org) or very cool or the best thing since sliced macaroni and cheese, or one of the few respectable distros |
| 21:08.10 | hans | sjansen: sure, bring your flamewar to #utah since you can't have fun on uug-list today. ;-) |
| 21:08.28 | hans | synic: I use debian |
| 21:08.52 | Hanuman | I use Redhat :-p |
| 21:08.56 | synic | hans, I wanna give it a try... I would like to use a netinstall, but I can't seem to find one with bf24 and the 8139too net driver on it |
| 21:09.31 | synic | do you know of one I can use |
| 21:09.31 | synic | ? |
| 21:10.44 | emcnabb | sjansen, back in my ward in Illinois there was a toilet that was passed around from house to house every night as a joke; the deal was whoever got had to give it to someone else; we should do that with the VAX; just leave it on Jayce's front porch |
| 21:12.44 | sjansen | I'm not sure I'd be able to run off after carrying the Vax. |
| 21:13.59 | hans | synic: http://falcon.fugal.net/~fugalh/ |
| 21:14.14 | synic | hans, thanks |
| 21:14.27 | hans | you might try the sarge one there - but I think it might be an image of the new alpha-stage installer |
| 21:14.40 | hans | you're safe with the debian-30... one, which does have bf24 |
| 21:14.44 | synic | ok |
| 21:14.46 | hans | not netinst though |
| 21:14.58 | hans | otherwise http://www.debian.org/CD/jigdo-cd/ |
| 21:16.44 | *** join/#utah Jayce^ (~Jayce^@65.218.37.130) |
| 21:17.18 | hans | synic: or you can be really 1337 and do it without a cd at all. http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch-install-methods.en.html#s-boot-drive-files |
| 21:18.04 | synic | hans, lol, I'll try and be 1337 after I know a bit more about the deb |
| 21:19.49 | emcnabb | man, Ruby is kind of wierd |
| 21:20.22 | sjansen | But cool. |
| 21:20.30 | synic | emcnabb, how is it weird (I don't know it, just curious) |
| 21:20.35 | sjansen | I'm looking forward to mod_perl + parrot + ruby |
| 21:20.44 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 21:20.52 | Jayce^ | mod_parrot |
| 21:20.54 | sjansen | That's be a serious web environment, IMNSHO. |
| 21:22.02 | emcnabb | synic, the syntax and structure are just very different |
| 21:23.04 | emcnabb | later all |
| 21:23.59 | Hanuman | mod_parrot seems weird but interesting |
| 23:11.56 | *** join/#utah ibot (ibot@c-24-1-99-18.client.comcast.net) |
| 23:11.56 | *** topic/#utah is http://sllug.org http://plug.org http://uug.byu.edu http://fslc.usu.edu http://www.ldsoss.org |
| 23:11.57 | *** mode/#utah [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 23:43.20 | synic | hans, is it impossible to install KDE on Debian? |
| 23:43.34 | bonez39 | if I want to swtich between gnome and KDE, can I do that? |
| 23:43.48 | bonez39 | synic: I have KDE installed and it runs on my debian 3.0 box too... |
| 23:43.56 | synic | bonez39, how did you install it? |
| 23:43.59 | bonez39 | it is possible as far as I know.. |
| 23:44.24 | bonez39 | synic: I ended up running apt-get kde or apt-cache search kde first..and then installing the various packages with apt-get |
| 23:44.34 | bonez39 | apt-get seemed to just take care of it all |
| 23:45.52 | synic | hrmmm... I just can't get it installed |
| 23:46.12 | bonez39 | are you using apt-get? |
| 23:46.29 | synic | yeah, but it's broken or something |
| 23:46.45 | bonez39 | it may just be your sources.list file.. |
| 23:46.54 | bonez39 | if you run apt-get update will it update? |
| 23:47.11 | synic | yeah |
| 23:47.19 | synic | I've tried a couple different sources for kde too |
| 23:48.49 | bonez39 | hmmmm I can email you my sources.list..want me to ? |
| 23:49.02 | bonez39 | or paste it to #flood here...then you could copy it into yours... |
| 23:49.34 | bonez39 | synic: I'll go and paste it to #flood if you'll join that channel.... |
| 23:49.53 | synic | ok, I'm there |
| 23:50.20 | synic | is this stable or sid? |
| 23:50.58 | bonez39 | ok..sid.. |
| 23:51.29 | bonez39 | anyway, there it is..I need to fly...let me know...memo me....if that helps you.. |
| 23:51.41 | synic | ok |
