| 00:19.09 | Jayce^ | we got a good spot |
| 00:19.14 | daniel_c | good, good |
| 00:19.28 | daniel_c | did you read my most recent post about covering 3-4? |
| 00:19.34 | Jayce^ | no |
| 00:19.55 | daniel_c | shall I sum it up, or do you want to read it? |
| 00:20.42 | daniel_c | or do you just not care? ;) |
| 00:20.56 | Jayce^ | sum it |
| 00:21.14 | daniel_c | I need someone to cover my spot from 3pm to 4pm tomorrow |
| 00:21.52 | Jayce^ | I'll be showing up in that time to cover my line.. |
| 00:22.23 | daniel_c | hmm... |
| 00:25.19 | daniel_c | Hans seems to think that we should be able to get away with leaving a spot open for a bit |
| 00:25.22 | daniel_c | but I'm not so sure |
| 00:30.43 | Jayce^ | the group we were around was pretty cool with it, if we don't leave it long.. |
| 01:06.21 | daniel_c | it should only be like an hour |
| 01:09.06 | *** join/#utah mrpull__ (~skidd@12-255-45-104.client.attbi.com) |
| 01:16.19 | daniel_c | k cool, he agreed to it |
| 01:16.22 | daniel_c | so we're all good |
| 01:24.06 | Jayce^ | he? |
| 01:26.32 | daniel_c | yes |
| 01:26.56 | daniel_c | had I given the impression that it was going to be a she? |
| 01:29.07 | daniel_c | say, can anyone tell me the difference between vi and vim? |
| 01:31.10 | mrpull__ | i'm sure there is a faq somewhere... but vim is a superset of vi. |
| 01:31.29 | daniel_c | ok |
| 01:31.39 | daniel_c | what's the difference between superset and subset then? |
| 01:31.45 | mrpull__ | vi ships with the old-school unix's... |
| 01:31.54 | mrpull__ | vim is "charityware" |
| 01:32.03 | daniel_c | ok |
| 01:32.34 | mrpull__ | http://www.vim.org/about.php |
| 01:32.46 | daniel_c | cool thanks |
| 01:33.48 | mrpull__ | vim can do anything vi can and more... if you are new to unix (or use only linux) you may have been using vim all along without knowing it. |
| 01:34.12 | daniel_c | ahh |
| 01:34.17 | daniel_c | it's possible |
| 01:34.24 | mrpull__ | most distros install vim and link vi to it. |
| 01:34.43 | daniel_c | gonna check and see if it's linked |
| 01:35.03 | daniel_c | anyone here use (bad word)X for an irc client? |
| 01:35.41 | mrpull__ | i'm <gasp> using trillian on windows. |
| 01:35.52 | daniel_c | hey while I've got you here |
| 01:36.02 | mrpull__ | yeah? |
| 01:36.15 | daniel_c | do you know of a way to make it easy to run a command through grep -v skel | grep -v backup | grep -v port etc. etc.? |
| 01:36.43 | daniel_c | like is there a way to make an alias that'll do that automatically? |
| 01:36.46 | daniel_c | I'll even convert to the bash shell |
| 01:37.43 | mrpull__ | you could do the commands in a text file, set the executable attribute, and just type the command at the shell. |
| 01:37.58 | daniel_c | yeah but I always want to... hmm |
| 01:38.05 | daniel_c | I could just pipe it through that file, right? |
| 01:38.22 | mrpull__ | you'll need to put a #! in the first line (like perl) |
| 01:38.25 | daniel_c | locate vim | filter |
| 01:38.29 | daniel_c | yeah, that's fine though |
| 01:39.01 | mrpull__ | wait. i'm not making sense. |
| 01:39.36 | mrpull__ | what is the desired output from all of commands? |
| 01:40.28 | hans | puts "Hello, world!" |
| 01:40.41 | mrpull__ | #!/bin/bash |
| 01:40.49 | mrpull__ | echo "Hello, world!" |
| 01:41.03 | mrpull__ | save it to helloworld.sh |
| 01:41.14 | hans | daniel_c: if the guy wants to help stand in line he can have a ticket - spot 2 still only has 5 people |
| 01:41.14 | mrpull__ | chmod u+x helloworld.sh |
| 01:41.17 | mrpull__ | ./helloworld |
| 01:41.56 | daniel_c | yeah, I told him he could, thanks though :) |
| 01:42.31 | daniel_c | actually I just want to filter out all of the skel, backup, and ports directories |
| 01:42.48 | daniel_c | so when I do a locate I don't have to type | grep -v skel | grep -v backup | grep -v ports every time |
| 01:43.10 | hans | daniel_c: but be sure to note it on the wiki; we can't overbook spots |
| 01:43.26 | daniel_c | ok |
| 01:44.31 | *** join/#utah mrpull__ (~skidd@12-255-45-104.client.attbi.com) |
| 01:44.51 | mrpull__ | hahahhh... serves me right for using trilian eh? |
| 01:45.39 | mrpull__ | anyway... |
| 01:46.33 | mrpull__ | just put the whole command after the #! line, name it "mylocate" or whatever...set it to be executable... Or am I missing the point? |
| 01:46.47 | daniel_c | nope |
| 01:47.46 | daniel_c | odd |
| 01:48.10 | daniel_c | oh, duh. /bin/csh might work better than /usr/csh for a path, huh? |
| 01:48.21 | hans | Jayce^: need to talk to neybar. have his phone, or can you pass a message? |
| 01:49.33 | hans | Jordan and/or Micah are going to be there betw. 10 and 10:30. If he needs to leave at 10, that's ok if he talks to the people around him to tell them they're coming and they'll be looking for him (James) or throwing my name around to find people that recognize it. |
| 01:49.52 | hans | maybe leave that notepad open with their names (Jordan/Micah) |
| 01:54.53 | hans | nevermind. looks like one of my brothers will be there for sure and they know them. |
| 02:04.28 | *** join/#utah brailsmt_ (~michael@12-254-250-249.client.attbi.com) |
| 02:06.57 | daniel_c | hmmm |
| 02:07.06 | daniel_c | there isn't any way to search only in your path is there? |
| 02:07.29 | daniel_c | and no, vi isn't linked to vim on this server |
| 02:07.47 | Jayce^ | which |
| 02:08.24 | brailsmt_ | which vi |
| 02:08.40 | daniel_c | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:08.48 | daniel_c | oh |
| 02:08.52 | brailsmt_ | then that is where it is |
| 02:09.01 | daniel_c | are you asking which vi isn't linked, or saying that which vi will search only the path? |
| 02:09.11 | daniel_c | I thought you were asking which vi isn't linked ;) |
| 02:09.26 | brailsmt_ | you are asking which vi will be used whn you type 'vi' on the command line |
| 02:09.33 | daniel_c | ahhh, cool |
| 02:09.45 | mrpull__ | ah man.. to much use of which may start a "who's on first" |
| 02:09.54 | daniel_c | how come? |
| 02:10.02 | daniel_c | or is this a joke that I just don't get? |
| 02:10.09 | brailsmt_ | man which -- gives more info |
| 02:10.27 | mrpull__ | manwhich? like the sloppy joe mix? ;-) |
| 02:10.54 | brailsmt_ | daniel_c: a joke and reference to the "Who's on First?" skit done by Abbot and Costello in the days of Vaudeville |
| 02:11.18 | daniel_c | odd |
| 02:11.37 | daniel_c | which -s vi gives an error about -s not being found |
| 02:11.44 | daniel_c | but -s is supposed to be a valid flag |
| 02:11.45 | daniel_c | I know the skit |
| 02:11.49 | daniel_c | I just don't get how it applies to which |
| 02:12.14 | brailsmt_ | which is on third, or outfield... |
| 02:12.20 | brailsmt_ | i think |
| 02:12.26 | daniel_c | I don't know's third base |
| 02:12.30 | daniel_c | so which must be the outfield |
| 02:12.46 | brailsmt_ | i need to brush up on the skit :) |
| 02:12.57 | mrpull__ | do a $which which? |
| 02:13.11 | mrpull__ | which which is the default which on your system? |
| 02:13.13 | daniel_c | undefined variable |
| 02:13.14 | brailsmt_ | anyone ever wrote a dockapp? |
| 02:13.36 | mrpull__ | ... /bin/which? |
| 02:13.50 | daniel_c | says it's built into the shell |
| 02:14.18 | mrpull__ | really? what shell are you using? that seems like it goes against the unix philosophy. |
| 02:15.02 | daniel_c | I know |
| 02:15.08 | daniel_c | tcsh |
| 02:15.20 | daniel_c | I know, I know. It is inherently inerior to the bash shell. |
| 02:15.25 | daniel_c | anyone here know a Brian? |
| 02:16.21 | mrpull__ | well, I guess you are right. which is "shell built-in" on this system too. |
| 02:16.28 | mrpull__ | when using tcsh |
| 02:31.09 | daniel_c | hmmm |
| 02:31.20 | daniel_c | which Jacob was the Jacob who worked for Rachel? |
| 02:31.28 | daniel_c | Was he Israel? |
| 02:56.00 | *** join/#utah tyce (~tyce@ts64.vps2.iserver.net) |
| 02:59.57 | tyce | so, how many people would you estimate are standing in line right now at JC? |
| 03:00.18 | tyce | and out of that #, how far back would you say you guys are? |
| 03:02.55 | hans | tyce: when I left at 6:30 there were maybe 30, maybe 40 |
| 03:03.29 | hans | There's two groups in front of us - so maybe the 10th in line or so |
| 03:03.35 | hans | really near the front |
| 03:04.26 | tyce | wow, thats great! |
| 03:04.36 | tyce | I thought there would be more people out there |
| 03:10.21 | brailsmt_ | btw, OfficeMax has a killer deal on an office chair... |
| 03:10.48 | brailsmt_ | a $150 chair that is $50 after sale and rebate... |
| 03:10.49 | tyce | :) |
| 03:11.11 | brailsmt_ | one of those high back 'executive' black leather chairs |
| 03:15.24 | brailsmt_ | very comfy |
| 03:16.42 | tyce | Question for you guys... Does PLUG stand for Provo Linux User's Group? |
| 03:16.51 | daniel_c | hey tyce are you Tyler? |
| 03:17.00 | tyce | si senor |
| 03:17.11 | daniel_c | hey it's dan |
| 03:17.17 | daniel_c | as you, umm... probably guessed. |
| 03:19.20 | Jayce^ | yup.. it does |
| 03:19.20 | tyce | right |
| 03:19.31 | tyce | the daniel_c thing was tough... |
| 03:19.40 | daniel_c | yeah, I bet that threw you way off. |
| 03:19.42 | tyce | couldn't quite place the 'c' |
| 03:19.56 | daniel_c | well... I do pride myself on how well I can obscure my name. |
| 03:20.17 | tyce | keep it up then |
| 03:20.18 | tyce | ;) |
| 03:21.20 | tyce | was this channel created for PLUG? |
| 03:21.39 | tyce | or is it just a utah thang? |
| 03:21.47 | daniel_c | people here don't talk much, I've noticed |
| 03:21.53 | tyce | :) |
| 03:21.58 | tyce | like pulling teethe |
| 03:22.34 | tyce | better than some of these channels where it is literally imposible to get a word in edgewise |
| 03:22.41 | daniel_c | that's true |
| 03:32.40 | brailsmt_ | #vim is really good for all kinds of help, even help that isn't vim related |
| 03:42.48 | *** join/#utah brailsmt_ (~michael@12-254-250-249.client.attbi.com) |
| 03:48.14 | brailsmt_ | anyone know how to enable a touch pad click in X? I have a touchpad that i want a tap on the pad to register as a click... |
| 03:51.58 | tyce | I think you can use pbbuttonsd for that |
| 03:52.22 | tyce | ahh wait... that is what I was using on my apple powerbook |
| 03:52.37 | tyce | are you running i386? |
| 03:53.09 | brailsmt_ | yup |
| 03:53.22 | brailsmt_ | well, athlon xp 1400+ to be exact... |
| 03:56.22 | brailsmt_ | aren't xf86config and xf86cfg part of X? |
| 03:56.30 | tyce | what flavor of linux are you using? |
| 03:56.40 | brailsmt_ | gentoo |
| 03:56.59 | brailsmt_ | i have never had X installed without having both of those programs also on the system... |
| 03:57.11 | tyce | yes |
| 03:57.15 | tyce | XF86Config-4 |
| 03:58.00 | tyce | did you complie support for it into your kernel? |
| 03:58.15 | brailsmt_ | for what? xf86config/xf86cfg? |
| 03:58.27 | tyce | no... |
| 03:58.32 | tyce | your mouse pad? |
| 03:58.45 | tyce | did you use "synaptics" |
| 03:58.48 | brailsmt_ | i bet i did, but I did just switch to a 2.6.0 kernel... |
| 03:59.08 | brailsmt_ | checking... |
| 03:59.32 | tyce | wow Im behind! |
| 03:59.47 | tyce | still running 2.4.21 |
| 04:00.11 | brailsmt_ | where is that option in menuconfig? |
| 04:00.17 | brailsmt_ | 2.6.0 is still beta |
| 04:00.50 | brailsmt_ | i think 2.4.22 is the latest 2.4.x kernel |
| 04:01.14 | tyce | yeah, I just checked |
| 04:01.18 | tyce | looks like it is still |
| 04:01.22 | brailsmt_ | 'synaptics' is what, the module name? |
| 04:01.24 | tyce | <sigh of relief> |
| 04:01.30 | tyce | yes |
| 04:02.58 | brailsmt_ | yes, I have it compiled into the kernel... |
| 04:03.17 | tyce | ok, good |
| 04:03.19 | brailsmt_ | and its under "Input Device Support -->" |
| 04:03.33 | tyce | in your XF86Config-4 do you have that as teh driver? |
| 04:03.51 | tyce | for example: |
| 04:03.53 | tyce | Section "InputDevice" |
| 04:03.53 | tyce | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:03.53 | tyce | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:03.53 | tyce | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:03.53 | tyce | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:03.54 | tyce | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:03.58 | tyce | EndSection |
| 04:05.20 | brailsmt_ | no... I have: |
| 04:05.23 | brailsmt_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:05.23 | brailsmt_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:05.23 | brailsmt_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:05.23 | brailsmt_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:05.23 | brailsmt_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:05.25 | brailsmt_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:05.27 | brailsmt_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:05.30 | brailsmt_ | EndSection |
| 04:06.12 | brailsmt_ | restarting X |
| 04:52.38 | daniel_c | l |
| 04:52.42 | daniel_c | oohhh I'm still on. |
| 05:06.09 | tyce | you haven't missed much |
| 05:18.05 | daniel_c | yeah I see |
| 05:18.13 | daniel_c | dude, you should quit that job |
| 05:18.25 | daniel_c | I'm so much happier now |
| 05:55.43 | tyce | :) |
| 05:55.56 | tyce | its not tha bad |
| 05:56.52 | tyce | you were just working the wrong shift |
| 05:57.00 | tyce | Ive taken 3 calls all night |
| 05:57.06 | daniel_c | heh cool |
| 05:57.07 | daniel_c | emails? |
| 05:57.13 | tyce | umm |
| 05:57.20 | tyce | maybe 15 |
| 05:57.29 | daniel_c | huh |
| 05:57.34 | daniel_c | yeah, that would've been okay |
| 05:57.42 | tyce | but there wasnt really any to start with |
| 05:58.07 | tyce | is the consulting picking up for you now? |
| 05:58.14 | daniel_c | yes |
| 05:58.28 | daniel_c | getting about 20-30 hours a week, billable |
| 06:01.06 | tyce | nice |
| 06:01.45 | tyce | setting your own hours would be cool |
| 06:01.56 | daniel_c | it's nice |
| 06:12.43 | daniel_c | well, it's bed for me. |
| 06:12.45 | daniel_c | good night |
| 06:54.46 | tyce | g'nite |
| 06:54.52 | *** part/#utah tyce (~tyce@ts64.vps2.iserver.net) |
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| 12:29.24 | hans | morning |
| 12:29.42 | hans | sounds like (from 102.7) there's still not so many people there. "about 12 tents" |
| 13:17.28 | Hanuman | I'm here |
| 13:17.38 | Hanuman | I mean ahoyhoy |
| 13:19.20 | Hanuman | Man - if you want to learn alot about CVS, postgres, mailman, and many other things, try installing gforge |
| 13:19.34 | Hanuman | I now hate postgres |
| 13:19.44 | Hanuman | MySQL and Oracle are so much easier to figure out |
| 13:20.00 | Hanuman | why would a relational database use \dt to show all tables? |
| 13:20.12 | Hanuman | I like Oracle's way "select * from tab" |
| 13:23.42 | hans | Hanuman: what makes mysql and oracle easier to figure out? |
| 13:24.18 | hans | (devil's advocate. I know postgres less but I seem to recall having quite a difficult time figuring out mysql administration *every time* I pick it up again) |
| 13:24.38 | hans | perhaps it's just because you're used to mysql and oracle? |
| 13:26.39 | Hanuman | hans: that's part of it, but postgres relies very little on SQL for alot of its tasks |
| 13:26.47 | Hanuman | like showing or describing tables |
| 13:27.07 | Hanuman | instead of "show tables" or "select * from tab" you have to do "\dt" |
| 13:27.19 | Hanuman | and I had to really search on the internet to even figure that out |
| 13:28.28 | Hanuman | It was just really hard to find any information anywhere on how to troubleshoot problems |
| 13:28.46 | Hanuman | I've never had that problem w/ MySQL or Oracle |
| 13:29.41 | hans | it wasn't always so easy to find info on troubleshooting in mysql |
| 13:30.11 | hans | \dt vs select * from tab sure sounds like a tradeoff to me. I'd rather type the first and remember the second |
| 13:30.19 | hans | vi vs. emacs all over again |
| 13:30.31 | Hanuman | the second is easier to remember the first is easier to type |
| 13:30.31 | hans | (well, except emacs isn't easy to remember either. ;-) |
| 13:30.43 | Hanuman | I'm a sucker for standards when it comes to dbs |
| 13:30.59 | Hanuman | and I prefer a method to do everything in SQL |
| 13:31.05 | hans | there's no standard I'm aware of for maintenance tasks |
| 13:31.06 | Hanuman | just my own preference, though |
| 13:31.29 | Hanuman | I know, but most db's out there use sql of some sort to do them |
| 13:31.38 | hans | and most users use windows. |
| 13:31.42 | hans | :) |
| 13:32.03 | hans | I'll stop now. I just see it as my personal responsibility to keep people from getting too comfortable with one technology. :) |
| 13:32.09 | hans | unless of course it's vim |
| 13:32.18 | Hanuman | I agree - now that I know it I'd prefer \dt over "select * from tab", but you'd think they'd allow an alternative sql-way of doing it as well |
| 13:32.33 | hans | can't argue there |
| 13:33.13 | Hanuman | That happens to be my biggest pet-peeve w/ Oracle and sqlplus - not many shortcuts |
| 13:33.18 | Hanuman | at least compared to other dbs |
| 13:33.37 | hans | usually it's one or the other |
| 13:33.44 | Hanuman | yes |
| 13:34.14 | Hanuman | the cool thing w/ Oracle though is you can have it open up your favorite editor for your queries, so you can just use vim if you hate sqlplus |
| 13:46.05 | Hanuman | hmm...what tunes should I listen to today? |
| 13:47.00 | hans | navajo |
| 13:49.17 | Hanuman | is that the name of a group? |
| 13:49.42 | Hanuman | meaning musical group, not indian group |
| 13:50.16 | hans | nope |
| 14:00.35 | Hanuman | gaim at both home and work is acting weird today |
| 14:01.02 | Hanuman | all my buddies just dissapeared |
| 14:16.53 | *** join/#utah synic (~synic@slkcdslgw12PoolF91.slkc.uswest.net) |
| 14:38.29 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@byu079633wks.byu.edu) |
| 14:39.28 | Hanuman | MadHatter looks way too much like Windows for my confort |
| 14:40.17 | Hanuman | If Mac can get away with looking different from Windows, why can't Linux? |
| 14:40.52 | Hanuman | I'd rather Linux desktops look more like Mac than Windows - Mac has a much better gui |
| 14:43.36 | Hanuman | sorry - just reading /. and Sun made me mad |
| 14:43.44 | Hanuman | as they usually do |
| 15:04.46 | levi | I love the Mac gui. I HATE the XP gui. |
| 15:05.20 | levi | I actually like Bluecurve, which looks a lot like XP, though. I think it's the default color scheme in XP that really gets me. |
| 15:08.18 | *** join/#utah Bonez39 (~Bonez@64.122.114.148) |
| 15:08.27 | Bonez39 | greetings |
| 15:09.23 | Hanuman | ahoyhoy |
| 15:09.54 | Hanuman | levi: I'm a Ximian man myself |
| 15:10.05 | Hanuman | although I'm not completely satisfied with its look and feel |
| 15:10.24 | Hanuman | I have yet to see anything exactly like Mac on Linux |
| 15:10.51 | Hanuman | Probably because all those who care all own their own Macs |
| 15:10.59 | Bonez39 | Hanuman: Ximian eh? When my linux box was working, I was too...at least used Evolution, but since I can't get mine to load...am just a winders guy now |
| 15:11.19 | Hanuman | hehe - have you considered just reinstalling the OS? |
| 15:11.27 | Hanuman | with all the problems you've had it might be faster |
| 15:12.02 | Hanuman | Latest evolution is nice and smooth |
| 15:12.11 | Hanuman | had problems with previous versions |
| 15:12.31 | Bonez39 | well, yeah, I have considered doing that.... |
| 15:12.38 | levi | I want a new Mac. |
| 15:12.47 | Hanuman | levi: I just want a Mac period |
| 15:12.54 | Bonez39 | but I see all my files there..my directories are in tact..I just can't get it to boot past the gnome login screen |
| 15:13.01 | Hanuman | I keep hoping to get a nice new Powerbook |
| 15:13.08 | Hanuman | just one of the 12" ones - nothing big |
| 15:13.27 | levi | I don't like big laptops. |
| 15:13.46 | Hanuman | me too - to me it defeats the purpose of a laptop to have a big one |
| 15:14.18 | Hanuman | Bonez39: good for you for not giving up |
| 15:16.46 | Hanuman | trying to decide what I want more - a Mac or one of those |
| 15:17.05 | Bonez39 | Haunman: why give up..I refuse to give up. I'd rather keep digging until I figure out why it got toasted in the first place |
| 15:17.28 | Hanuman | that's the way to learn - as long as you've got another box, you can take your time |
| 15:17.32 | levi | I want a new G5. |
| 15:17.36 | Bonez39 | yeah...... |
| 15:17.39 | Hanuman | mmm...G5 |
| 15:17.44 | Bonez39 | I'd love a new g5..they look hot.. |
| 15:18.16 | Bonez39 | I guess I should just post something to the SLLUG list...maybe that will bring out a few ideas..but hans has helped me quite a bit with this too. |
| 15:18.29 | Bonez39 | Hanuman: you said you run irssi? |
| 15:18.34 | Hanuman | yeah |
| 15:18.51 | Jayce^ | Bonez39, did you stop by the line for more help? |
| 15:18.52 | Hanuman | I'm not as much of an expert at it as Hans, but I use it |
| 15:18.58 | Bonez39 | I installed it, but need help getting it running on my box..I can get internet access at the console...on my box... |
| 15:19.04 | Bonez39 | stop by the line for more help? |
| 15:19.18 | Bonez39 | Jayce^: not sure which line you mean |
| 15:19.20 | Jayce^ | yesterday, when hans was in the lotr line up ther |
| 15:19.21 | Jayce^ | there |
| 15:19.51 | Hanuman | how was that by the way? |
| 15:20.16 | *** join/#utah neybar (~jalance@208.187.199.94) |
| 15:21.26 | Jayce^ | good |
| 15:21.36 | Hanuman | who did the night-shift |
| 15:21.38 | Hanuman | ? |
| 15:22.09 | Jayce^ | hans brother-in-law and a friend I think.. |
| 15:22.12 | Jayce^ | I have tonights shift |
| 15:22.49 | Hanuman | Did they ever get wireless? |
| 15:23.03 | neybar | no |
| 15:23.21 | Hanuman | too bad |
| 15:23.35 | hans | it was a blast |
| 15:23.36 | hans | loved it |
| 15:23.46 | neybar | it isn't too bad, cause there wasn't really any power. |
| 15:23.50 | hans | last night we actually had three. jody and micah and Jacob |
| 15:24.03 | Hanuman | cool |
| 15:24.15 | Hanuman | I wish I was there just for the activity |
| 15:24.31 | Bonez39 | oh, I didn't hook up with hans..I was not in my office much ysterday |
| 15:24.31 | Hanuman | Don't know if I have time for the actual showing |
| 15:24.39 | neybar | yeah, I was there this morning from 6 to 8:30 |
| 15:25.07 | Bonez39 | back in 5 minutes |
| 15:25.19 | neybar | Jayce^: I am probably going to camp there tonight |
| 15:25.33 | Jayce^ | sweet |
| 15:25.38 | Jayce^ | kelly burke will too |
| 15:25.52 | Jayce^ | hey, is your bbs off? |
| 15:26.08 | Hanuman | bbs? |
| 15:26.10 | Jayce^ | too bad you aren't coming to Plug tonight :) |
| 15:26.16 | Hanuman | do they still have those? |
| 15:26.26 | neybar | yes |
| 15:26.28 | Jayce^ | yeah, access via telnet, and play the old games |
| 15:26.29 | Hanuman | Jayce^: I want to be there, too |
| 15:26.31 | Bonez39 | before I step away...I maintain a site that has both html and java script running on it.. at http://www.2ndlanguagesuccess.com/ I am trying to update links and some typos on it.. but can't get the changes to take effect..suggestions? where would I look for help with java? I am totally new to it. |
| 15:26.52 | Jayce^ | Hanuman, it's a long answer.. |
| 15:26.52 | Hanuman | Jayce^: cool |
| 15:27.12 | Hanuman | Hopefully someone takes notes - I'd love to see a summary |
| 15:27.34 | neybar | ask stuart those same questions about j2ee... he'll be happy to expound for you :-) |
| 15:28.01 | hans | plug summary for tonight: talk about the lotr line, jayce takes a vote on who wants to go to the line instead of listen to a mod_perl presentation, everyone heads north |
| 15:28.10 | Jayce^ | lol... |
| 15:28.12 | neybar | lol |
| 15:28.17 | Jayce^ | no hans, remember, this is me and mod_perl.. |
| 15:28.29 | neybar | you could give your presentation in line. |
| 15:28.32 | Jayce^ | although I will be somewhat short, since I have to relieve my wife from line duty |
| 15:30.36 | hans | neybar: so you're staying the night too? should I tell jody and micah they don't need to come tonight if they don't want? |
| 15:30.39 | Hanuman | I'd take over for you just so people get their time's worth if I were there |
| 15:30.48 | neybar | yeah |
| 15:30.49 | Hanuman | people need at least an hour of mod_perl presentation |
| 15:31.12 | *** join/#utah tensai (~tensai@dsl.dyn.02-59.budget.net) |
| 15:31.55 | neybar | hans: your brother is hard core... I got there this morning and he was sleeping straight on the concrete with just his jacket and a borrowed blanket... |
| 15:32.15 | Jayce^ | dang! |
| 15:32.30 | Hanuman | Jayce^: are you going to Oscon next year? |
| 15:33.15 | Jayce^ | if I can afford it |
| 15:33.30 | Hanuman | My wife is talking about giving me that as a present. |
| 15:34.11 | hans | neybar: hard core or just lacking in common sense sometimes. Or rather, distracted to the point of forgetting common sense... Makes him a great mathemetician and coder though |
| 15:34.26 | hans | said he didn't sleep much - too cold |
| 15:34.26 | Hanuman | It would be cool to have LDSOSS setup a booth there sometime |
| 15:34.46 | Hanuman | If I end up going maybe we can room together to save money |
| 15:35.51 | *** join/#utah Bradipo (~amb@ip-64-32-156-231.dsl.lax.megapath.net) |
| 15:39.19 | Hanuman | :q should work in bash to exit the current user |
| 15:40.43 | tensai | I once aliased :q to shutdown -h now. That came back and bit me in the butt. |
| 15:40.57 | Hanuman | lol |
| 15:43.53 | neybar | lol |
| 15:44.36 | neybar | I hit :q on the commandline fairly frequently actually, I think I would be shutting down inadervently all the time. |
| 15:45.20 | Jayce^ | ever try moving in your command line using hjkl ? |
| 15:45.24 | Jayce^ | without vi mode |
| 15:45.45 | neybar | what is the command again to set your commandline to act like vi? |
| 15:45.48 | Bradipo | Ever try using the command line when it was in vi mode? :-) |
| 15:45.53 | neybar | set +o something |
| 15:46.11 | Bradipo | As much as I like vi, I can't stand vi mode shells. |
| 15:49.18 | Bonez39 | neybar: which one is sturat? |
| 15:49.22 | Bonez39 | er...stuart |
| 15:49.40 | neybar | sjansen |
| 15:51.25 | sjansen | neybar: Sorry working. What was the question? |
| 15:51.33 | Jayce^ | sjansen, liar..... |
| 15:53.02 | sjansen | Bradipo: That's probably because you haven't used the proprietary ksh. |
| 15:53.17 | sjansen | Bash's vi bindings are trash. |
| 15:53.18 | *** join/#utah synic_ (~synic@cpe-66-87-26-56.ut.sprintbbd.net) |
| 15:54.57 | Hanuman | what would I put in apache to set <name>.projects.ldsoss.org to point to /path/to/<name>/htdocs? |
| 15:55.17 | Bonez39 | sjansen: neybar here says you are the god of java.... is it true? |
| 15:55.37 | neybar | no, he is just very opinionated on the subject... |
| 15:55.38 | sjansen | Bonez39: No. I'm just opinionated about it. |
| 15:55.39 | Jayce^ | Hanuman, a virtual host |
| 15:55.54 | Bonez39 | sjansen: that's ok..I like opinionation. |
| 15:56.09 | Hanuman | Jayce^: yeah - that's what I meant - how would I set that up? |
| 15:56.17 | neybar | don't ask him about C++ :-D |
| 15:56.36 | Jayce^ | neybar, ask him about coding in java vs coding in C :) |
| 15:56.45 | Jayce^ | he had a great quote yesterday.. |
| 15:56.47 | neybar | are you going to stand in line anymore sjansen |
| 15:57.15 | Bonez39 | sjansen: here's my dilemma. I have a web site to maintain (www.2ndlanguagesuccess.com) and it has some errors in it..some I have been able to alter, using Front Page or Opera or other editor, save, and then upload the affected pages...but some, I make the changes, upload them to the host and the changes do not show up.. I assume as they are hidden behind some java code..is this possible? |
| 15:57.19 | sjansen | Not sure. I'd like to at least drop by for awhile tonight after the meeting. |
| 15:57.54 | sjansen | Bonez39: Like what type of problems? |
| 15:58.47 | sjansen | It is possible... but that'd really depend on how the server is setup. More likely your browser is cacheing or a proxy between you and the server. Many ISPs are starting to add transparent cacheing proxies. |
| 15:59.31 | Bonez39 | sjansen: on some pages, there are graphic images...at the header and elsewhere..they reference..to the hyperlink to them..is wrong. I change it and save the changes but they don't take effect..so it just displays a blank placeholder for those graphics. |
| 15:59.52 | sjansen | URL so I can look at it? |
| 16:00.16 | sjansen | Jayce^: Changed my sig yesterday. You should start seeing it in future posts. |
| 16:00.18 | Bonez39 | with this server for this site, I have to make the changes..then ftp them back to the site...just log on, put the file back, etc...then reload the page in my browser to make sure it took effect..the changes |
| 16:00.50 | Bonez39 | sjansen: yes, the URL which I posted above..and here again now is www.2ndlanguagesuccess.com |
| 16:01.07 | sjansen | So what is an example of an image that isn't showing up? |
| 16:02.37 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@byu176783wks.rn.byu.edu) |
| 16:03.47 | sjansen | Ick. That's a bad use of flash. |
| 16:04.20 | sjansen | Bonez39: Why are you using flash for the buttons? That's... evil and wrong. |
| 16:04.40 | Bonez39 | sjansen: try the page at www.2ndlanguagesuccess.com/industrires.htm |
| 16:05.09 | Bonez39 | sjansen: Please, no lectures..I did NOT create the page, but I inherited it with all its warts, blemishes..and other problems... |
| 16:05.12 | sjansen | Gotcha, the little white squares are missing? |
| 16:05.29 | Bonez39 | I don't mind criticism..but I didn't create it, just trying to make it work better and change it now |
| 16:05.33 | Bonez39 | yeah, those squares.. |
| 16:05.56 | Jayce^ | get on jabber buddy |
| 16:06.34 | sjansen | Bonez39: Whoever chose to use flash made a very bad decision. If all they wanted was the roll over effect, it was stupid. |
| 16:06.57 | sjansen | Flash shouldn't be required for such simple content on the page. What about users that have it turned off? Accessiblity, etc. |
| 16:07.25 | Bonez39 | sjansen: yes, stuart...I will send an order at once that they be shot....20 times...to the head...at lunch..ok....will that suffice? now, on to my problem at hand..;) |
| 16:07.39 | sjansen | You're reducing the number of people that can use the page without visibly gaining anything. For a company trying to sell a product that's bad. |
| 16:07.43 | sjansen | working on it |
| 16:09.39 | Bonez39 | sjansen: ok ok..I want to reach the greatest possible audience.. |
| 16:09.44 | sjansen | From the looks of it, this is completely static. What makes you think that java enters into the question? |
| 16:10.14 | sjansen | I'd more likely suspect that frontpage isn't uploading the correct file. Or erroring out and not reporting. |
| 16:12.06 | sjansen | I checked the raw output and it doesn't mention anything about frontpage extensions. |
| 16:13.16 | Jayce^ | frontpatge can do straight ftp... maybe it is doing that.. |
| 16:13.17 | sjansen | BTW, you mis-spelled "industries". |
| 16:16.09 | Bonez39 | sjansen: oh, I am so PAINFULLY AWARE of that misspelling..the lady who put the site together has a horrible time with spelling..so she is not doingit anymore...I am |
| 16:16.51 | Bonez39 | there are spellingissues through..one listed some cards for (LSD) when it shold have read (LDS)... we heard about that one froma few customers |
| 16:20.55 | sjansen | I'd suggest a cleanup. Reflects very badly on a company selling language related products. |
| 16:22.00 | sjansen | If you boss won't allocate the time, you can tell him that you know of people that have lost interest in the companies products because they have no faith in its quality. |
| 16:22.19 | sjansen | s/companies/company's/ |
| 16:22.36 | sjansen | To err is human, to correct it is vital to marketing. |
| 16:31.46 | sjansen | I was just talking to a co-worker. He's got a friend who has a friend who apparently works across from Jordon Commons. |
| 16:32.12 | sjansen | The guy sent some web cam pictures that supposedly showed about 200 people in line. |
| 16:32.25 | sjansen | If this is true, it is a major change. I'm trying to get a copy of the pictures to confirm. |
| 16:34.26 | Bonez39 | sjansen: Exactly why I am here today..trying to clean it all up |
| 16:34.48 | Bonez39 | sjansen: I am the boss..or at least married to her..... |
| 16:35.22 | Bonez39 | my wife owns the business..and has enlisted me to clean it up..andmake it shine.. |
| 16:35.48 | Bonez39 | allI am asking is for suggestions on how to make the changes...or where to find help for java....to make channges that will stick...and persist |
| 16:36.26 | Bonez39 | Jayce^: the isp/host for this site does NOT have front page extension, specifically because they don't appreciate front page or anything microsoft.... |
| 16:37.35 | sjansen | I repeat my question: what leads you to think this is a java problem? I can't find any evidence that it enters into the question. |
| 16:37.57 | sjansen | If looks to me like you've got a collection of static pages created using gui html editors and served up by apache. |
| 16:38.08 | Bonez39 | sjansen: well, here's why. I encountered the aforementioned (LSD) problem, while viewing it in Explorer.... |
| 16:39.16 | Bonez39 | I went in, using Front Page, edited the mistake, to read (LDS), saved it tolocal file and then using ftp I uploaded it to the host site...it overwrote the existing file...but when I went back and reloaded that same page, the picture still is not linked up right...the LSD change stuck, but the picture hyperlink does not stick or is not seen upon reloading. |
| 16:39.40 | Bonez39 | sjansen: so, some changes take effect and some do not...thus my thinking that the problem may lie in some java code somewhere..but I do not know |
| 16:40.45 | Hanuman | Bonez39: that's interesting - the html says "/images/jefe.gif", but when I view the image, it tries to pull up just "jefe.gif" |
| 16:41.04 | Jayce^ | Bonez39, good thing, the extensions cause serious problems.. better to just use the ftp only |
| 16:41.35 | Jayce^ | Bonez39, java code, or javascript code?? that might be the cause of some difficulties here.. |
| 16:42.43 | Bonez39 | Hanuman: my contention exactly....I would love to retain the look and feel of thesite, but recreate it in a better form and structure, that works, is not confusing..and that is accurate.... |
| 16:42.48 | Hanuman | Bonez39: nm - I was looking at the href - it's hrefing to /images, but the image is trying to be pulled from just plain "jefe.gif" |
| 16:43.11 | Bonez39 | Jayce^: I think it's javascript....but that's just cause I see that when viewing the source in front page... |
| 16:43.15 | Hanuman | Bonez39: use xhtml using just <div> tags (no tables) and css |
| 16:43.29 | Hanuman | much more powerful than tables - more friendly to search engines as well |
| 16:43.40 | Hanuman | see http://www.w3schools.com for more info |
| 16:43.44 | Bonez39 | jayce when I view the source...it never includes any of the links to any graphic elements or any of the text content...making me thinks that is all served up with java somehow |
| 16:45.54 | Jayce^ | which links are broken? |
| 16:45.54 | Hanuman | Bonez39: have you tried just taking the html, using a normal text editor, and a regular ftp program to make your changes? Sounds like it may be a problem w/ the way Frontpage is setup. |
| 16:46.15 | Bonez39 | links to some graphic elements |
| 16:46.34 | sjansen | Bonez39: Javascript and Java are two very different beast. Javascript was named to try and grab some free marketing from Java. |
| 16:46.58 | Bonez39 | does the fact that those graphics are .gif files present a problem? I don't want the goons from compuserve (do they still exist) coming after me for royalties on their .gif file usage |
| 16:47.12 | Hanuman | Bonez39: my guess is you are trying to get /images/jefe.gif to show up. Are you aware that the image itself is trying to pull from just /jefe.gif? |
| 16:47.28 | Hanuman | the linking is pointing to the right place, but not the image |
| 16:47.40 | Bonez39 | Hanuman: I have not tried that...how do I proceed? just save the page to an .html file, and use notepad or something to edit it? |
| 16:47.48 | Jayce^ | Bonez39, not seeing ay empty images.. they all seem to be there.. |
| 16:47.52 | Jayce^ | Bonez39, yeah.. |
| 16:47.53 | Hanuman | my advice - avoid graphical editors like Frontpage. You have much more power editing the html directly |
| 16:47.57 | Hanuman | Bonez39: yeah |
| 16:48.17 | Hanuman | There are many free html editors for windows that are even better than notepad |
| 16:48.35 | Hanuman | Jayce^: see http://www.2ndlanguagesuccess.com/industrires.htm |
| 16:48.54 | Hanuman | Bonez39: I really like EditPlus to edit my files |
| 16:49.23 | Hanuman | when you get you Linux machine working again you can transfer them all there and use vim |
| 16:51.09 | Hanuman | Bonez39: another way is to ftp to where you are sending the files and just download them to your machine |
| 16:51.21 | Hanuman | They are probably all on your computer somewhere, though |
| 16:52.08 | Hanuman | do a find on "industrires.htm" and you should find where they are stored |
| 16:53.26 | Jayce^ | I see, the homepage is ok.. |
| 16:54.21 | Jayce^ | first major problem, easy to tell you used frontpage by this.. |
| 16:54.32 | Jayce^ | language="JavaScript1.2" fptype="dynamicoutline" src="file:///D:/Program%20Files/OfficeXP/Office10/fpclass/outline.js |
| 16:54.51 | Jayce^ | when on your local system, that filepath works, but frontpage isn't setting it correctly.. |
| 16:54.56 | *** join/#utah brailsmt (~michael@12-254-250-249.client.attbi.com) |
| 16:55.09 | Jayce^ | either get rid of that javascript completely, or put a correct path, and make sure it's on the server.. |
| 16:56.00 | Jayce^ | it's probably giving you some of your problems |
| 16:57.26 | Jayce^ | your body tag references onclick="dynOutline()"... WTF is that doing? |
| 16:57.59 | Hanuman | Welcome to Frontpage |
| 16:58.16 | Hanuman | or any graphical html editor |
| 16:59.51 | sjansen | Bonez39: Sorry. I've been busy with work for a bit. |
| 17:00.37 | sjansen | Using graphical editors is dangerous. You have to have a good understanding of what they're doing or they'll bite you. |
| 17:00.51 | Jayce^ | Bonez39, you figure out how to get that javascript stuff out of there ok? should help |
| 17:01.17 | sjansen | They're supposed to replace needing to understand web development (HTML, CSS, Javascript, etc). Most of the time they only really accomplish that for toy sites. |
| 17:01.49 | sjansen | Instead, used properly they are only good at enhancing the productivity of people that already have a good understanding of the underlying components. |
| 17:02.05 | sjansen | I generally don't like them because of the added work learning their quirks. |
| 17:02.11 | brailsmt | as the Pragmatic Programmer states... "Never use a code generator unless you understand exactly what it is doing" |
| 17:02.45 | sjansen | Your comment about the LSD change sticking, but the image change not was very helpfully. |
| 17:03.04 | brailsmt | LSD? can I have some? |
| 17:03.07 | brailsmt | :) |
| 17:03.20 | sjansen | Here is what is probably happening: while you are doing development on your local computer, the files are referenced differently than when they are uploaded. |
| 17:03.33 | Hanuman | brailsmt: I'll send the missionaries over ;-) |
| 17:03.56 | sjansen | When the pages get uploaded, frontpage is capable of converting all image references. (If you are using Frontpage to upload the file.) |
| 17:03.58 | brailsmt | :) |
| 17:04.15 | sjansen | If you aren't, this conversion isn't happening at all. |
| 17:04.54 | sjansen | If you are using frontpage to upload, it needs to know where the files are located on the server. I have no idea where the setting to tell it this is hidden. |
| 17:05.34 | brailsmt | anyone here use Eterm's Escreen? I can't get it to start up... |
| 17:05.36 | sjansen | My suggestion is to temporarily live with the problem. |
| 17:06.21 | brailsmt | mmmm... I love trisctuits |
| 17:06.38 | sjansen | Bonez39: Find a better editor and redo all the pages. This is an expensive proposition, but if you don't do it now, it will get more expensive when you're forced to in the future. |
| 17:07.13 | sjansen | Technologies like CSS and XHTML are designed to improve mantainabilty and reduce cost long term. |
| 17:07.29 | brailsmt | write your own little homegrown html code generator to generate the most common things you need... then fill in the rest :) |
| 17:07.55 | brailsmt | that way you can change anything you like... |
| 17:08.08 | Hanuman | blah |
| 17:08.08 | sjansen | If you aren't familiar with them, teach yourself or hire a good web designer. (Beware because too many are guys that read a single book and decided to start their own company.) |
| 17:08.10 | brailsmt | i language like ruby would be perfect for this :) |
| 17:08.33 | Hanuman | Bonez39: that w3schools has some excellent css and xhtml tutorials |
| 17:09.00 | sjansen | Ignore the suggestions to create a home grown solution at this point. Probably not worth the investment. (Unless you like getting paid in geek points.) |
| 17:09.10 | brailsmt | bah... |
| 17:09.38 | brailsmt | sjansen: you just had to rain on my parade, didn't you? |
| 17:09.39 | sjansen | brailsmt: Sorry. If this were a personal site my suggestion would be different. |
| 17:09.51 | sjansen | But businesses have different needs. |
| 17:09.51 | Hanuman | Bonez39: for text editors, I highly recommend EditPlus - not very expensive (works on a trial as well), and has some cool automation tools |
| 17:10.08 | brailsmt | *cough* vim *cough* |
| 17:10.12 | brailsmt | its free |
| 17:10.21 | sjansen | brailsmt: Now you're talking! ;-) |
| 17:10.44 | Hanuman | Bonez39: for graphical ones, if you must use one, Dreamweaver is probably the best I've seen, but as I said less control than just editing the html yourself |
| 17:10.48 | brailsmt | and if you use ruby to make your homegrown code generator it will be very easy to plug into vim :) |
| 17:10.49 | sjansen | Bonez39: Any questions? |
| 17:10.59 | Hanuman | brailsmt: of course - vim is the best html editor out there |
| 17:11.08 | brailsmt | s/html// |
| 17:11.22 | sjansen | Too right. Too right. |
| 17:11.29 | Hanuman | brailsmt: there are already code generator plugins for vim |
| 17:11.59 | brailsmt | i have written one to generate C++ source files from the header |
| 17:12.13 | brailsmt | pretty crude atm, but cool nonetheless |
| 17:12.22 | Hanuman | very cool |
| 17:12.31 | Hanuman | I may get that from you some day |
| 17:12.40 | brailsmt | Hanuman: vim.org |
| 17:12.45 | Hanuman | cool |
| 17:13.01 | brailsmt | its like really alpha atm... |
| 17:13.02 | Hanuman | I think my next C++ class I take I'm doing it all with gcc and vim |
| 17:13.24 | brailsmt | i have done *all* my classes with gcc/g++ and vim |
| 17:13.26 | Hanuman | I'm ssh'ing to my home box during class |
| 17:13.36 | brailsmt | well, all the C/C++ ones at least |
| 17:13.38 | Hanuman | my school isn't very pro OSS |
| 17:13.57 | Hanuman | My teachers think I'm really smart because I run Linux at home |
| 17:13.59 | brailsmt | Hanuman: so enlighten them |
| 17:14.30 | Hanuman | brailsmt: working on it - gave my last C++ professor some tips on how to setup Linux and setup his own webserver last time |
| 17:14.36 | Hanuman | he was very excited |
| 17:15.15 | brailsmt | my parents were really, really surprised when I took them on a tour of the talmadge computer labs, and pointed out all the linux labs as opposed to all the windows labs... |
| 17:15.42 | brailsmt | they come from the idea that everything is just done on windows... |
| 17:16.05 | Hanuman | BYU has gotten much better at that over the years |
| 17:16.29 | brailsmt | but they understand that universities are the birth places for a lot of trends, and if lots of CS students are being taught linux, then linux will continue to creep into business computing and home computing... |
| 17:16.29 | Hanuman | we'll see what schools I can get in |
| 17:16.48 | brailsmt | that is why they were so surpirsed... |
| 17:17.01 | brailsmt | i am trying to get them to buy a Max for their next computer... |
| 17:17.06 | brailsmt | s/Max/Mac |
| 17:17.24 | brailsmt | that way they get the power and security of Unix with the usablility of a Mac |
| 17:17.24 | sjansen | Take it the the "Max" with a Mac. |
| 17:17.42 | sjansen | s/the the/to the/ |
| 17:17.56 | brailsmt | my first computer after I get a *real* job will be a Mac... |
| 17:18.25 | brailsmt | if their hardware was cheaper i would get one now |
| 17:19.19 | hans | Bonez39: listen to sjansen and ignore these clowns. :) You don't need to rewrite the site. You're fixing typos, for crying out loud. |
| 17:19.41 | hans | open the html files in an editor (your pick - if you know vim go get the windows version) |
| 17:19.46 | hans | then ftp them up |
| 17:19.49 | sjansen | hans: I'm one of the clowns suggesting a rewrite. |
| 17:19.52 | hans | and be sure to shift-reload |
| 17:20.01 | hans | sjansen: guess I missed that :) You guys have been busy |
| 17:20.03 | sjansen | Although it could be gradual refactoring. |
| 17:20.05 | brailsmt | call me bozo |
| 17:20.07 | brailsmt | :) |
| 17:20.18 | sjansen | Cleaning it up a bit at a time. |
| 17:20.39 | sjansen | But the fact is that switching to CSS and XHTML with a unified structure will pay off. |
| 17:20.40 | hans | sjansen: any news on the line status? Laura was saying on the radio about 9:00 this morning that there were about 30. (or was it earlier? I forget) |
| 17:21.04 | hans | sjansen: yes, but I bet he wants his typos fixed ASAP (so her customers stop doing LSD) |
| 17:21.08 | sjansen | The first step is to either grok Frontpage or abandon it. |
| 17:21.13 | Hanuman | hans: I'll take credit for recommending opening up in an html editor and re-up using a real ftp program |
| 17:21.22 | Hanuman | but a rewrite certainly wouldn't hurt |
| 17:21.31 | hans | certainly not, in the appropriate time frame |
| 17:25.15 | Hanuman | mmm...ABBA-esque |
| 17:25.25 | Jayce^ | great single |
| 17:25.36 | Jayce^ | apparently power is on in the line now.. |
| 17:26.17 | Hanuman | Is Vince Clarke gay as well? |
| 17:27.04 | Jayce^ | no |
| 17:27.06 | Jayce^ | just andy bell |
| 17:27.11 | Hanuman | sorry for the random question - I was just reading their bio |
| 17:27.28 | Jayce^ | he's made several direct statements to that.. |
| 17:27.34 | Hanuman | hehe |
| 17:28.36 | Hanuman | Just curious because he left some major work for Andy Bell |
| 17:29.27 | Hanuman | Evidently it was a good choice |
| 17:30.37 | Hanuman | Erasure is very good at singing other peoples songs |
| 17:30.50 | Hanuman | ;-) |
| 17:32.29 | Bonez39 | hans: ok, back..had a sales guy here |
| 17:34.42 | Bonez39 | hans: here's what I am confused about..now, I open the page, which was not showing the right graphic..and it lists the correct link to the graphic file on the host.. |
| 17:35.10 | Bonez39 | whats does shift-reload mean? shift key and reload at same time? |
| 17:35.17 | Hanuman | yeah |
| 17:35.21 | Hanuman | clears the cache |
| 17:36.25 | Bonez39 | ok...i tried viewing the file, in wordpad...and it shows with the correct link now..but it still does NOT find and display the file as it should |
| 17:37.01 | Bonez39 | here's what I don't get..if I am at the site and I click on the picture place holder...it opens a new window with that graphic file diplayed, by itself.. |
| 17:37.04 | Bonez39 | what the hell is ithat about? |
| 17:38.09 | hans | your image tag probably looks something like this: <a href="/images/foo.png"><img src="foo.png" /></a> |
| 17:38.12 | hans | am I right? |
| 17:38.14 | hans | can you see the problem? |
| 17:38.16 | Bonez39 | and yet, if I right click on that graphic file place, it shows a different location for it |
| 17:38.23 | Bonez39 | yeah, it does.. |
| 17:38.51 | Bonez39 | hans: yeah, it shows that.. a la P><A href="http://www.2ndlanguagesuccess.com/images/jefe.gif"><IMG |
| 17:38.51 | Bonez39 | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:38.58 | Hanuman | hans: thanks for writing that out - that was what I was trying to explain before |
| 17:39.01 | hans | the problem with the tags I just typed is that when you click it you get /images/foo.png but the image displayed is whati's in src="" |
| 17:39.08 | hans | src="" will give you a nice nonimage |
| 17:39.28 | hans | src="http://www.2ndlangeuagesuccess.com/images/jefe.gif" would be more appropriate |
| 17:39.31 | Bonez39 | oh....ok...thanks... |
| 17:39.38 | hans | or "/images/jefe.gif" probably |
| 17:39.40 | Bonez39 | oh, so change it to that...to make it display? |
| 17:39.44 | hans | yup |
| 17:39.48 | Hanuman | yes |
| 17:40.16 | Hanuman | hans: you explain it so much better than I |
| 17:40.33 | hans | neybar: ok, my brother in law is probably going to yield to you tonight (unless he had such a blast that he wants to come again) |
| 17:41.14 | hans | I am the explaininator |
| 17:41.24 | Jayce^ | hans, sjansen... how do you want to work out payment? if neybar is there, he can pay for his.. |
| 17:41.52 | hans | Jayce^: I have the cash on hand, and I'll be there in the morning too |
| 17:41.54 | Bonez39 | when I save it....do I save it as the name of the file I want to replace? and risk obliterating that one, and really messing it up, or as a different name? |
| 17:42.00 | Jayce^ | k |
| 17:42.31 | hans | Bonez39: grab a copy of the files and stick them in a backup somewhere (maybe a zip file?) |
| 17:42.50 | hans | then you don't have to worry about obliterating. update the backup when you're happy |
| 17:43.22 | neybar | hans: ok |
| 17:43.29 | Hanuman | I just thought of an interesting conspiracy theory - some of you are really just bots and don't really exist in real life |
| 17:43.39 | Hanuman | I just think you exist |
| 17:43.53 | Bonez39 | thanks hans: |
| 17:44.31 | Hanuman | Bonez39: you're welcome ;-) |
| 17:44.45 | Hanuman | that was for hans |
| 17:45.22 | Jayce^ | yeah, Ibot and I were discussing that yesterday Hanuman.. we think Bradipo is a bot :) |
| 17:45.32 | Hanuman | lol |
| 17:45.40 | Bradipo | Yeah, I'm a bot, I admit it. |
| 17:45.43 | Hanuman | that and TimRiker |
| 17:45.49 | Hanuman | ;-) |
| 17:46.17 | Hanuman | Anyone seen Ibot lately - was he in line? |
| 17:46.37 | Jayce^ | ~lart Hanuman |
| 17:46.51 | Hanuman | oh - there you are ibot |
| 17:46.57 | Hanuman | ibot - good to see you again |
| 17:46.58 | | i don't know, Hanuman |
| 17:47.19 | Hanuman | ibot: how was the line? |
| 17:47.20 | | Hanuman: KCI error, or a problem with the Keyboard-Chair Interface. |
| 17:48.10 | Hanuman | ibot: I thought that was a PEBKAC error |
| 17:48.11 | | Hanuman: wish i knew |
| 17:48.51 | Jayce^ | pebkac, it's a form of id-10-t error |
| 17:49.43 | Hanuman | someone ought to program ibot to rate people based on the number of larts and speak nicely to those with few larts and mean to those with alot of them |
| 17:52.07 | sjansen | Jayce^: I'm going to try to drop by tonight. |
| 17:53.37 | sjansen | Oh, wait, I should be at the meeting. I can pay you then. |
| 17:54.07 | Jayce^ | yeah |
| 17:54.15 | Jayce^ | you'd better be there :) |
| 17:55.07 | neybar | lol |
| 17:58.25 | Bonez39 | Hanuman: Thank you too...! |
| 17:59.18 | Hanuman | Bonez39: No, thank you! ;-) |
| 18:06.39 | sjansen | Jayce^: So have you been following the MySQL debate on SLLUG? |
| 18:07.19 | Hanuman | Is it MySQL vs PostGres? |
| 18:08.33 | Bradipo | PostGres. |
| 18:08.46 | Bradipo | Of course. :-) |
| 18:09.01 | Hanuman | cool - I just delved into PostGres last night - it was very frustrating |
| 18:09.11 | Bradipo | hehe, why was it frustrating? |
| 18:09.28 | Hanuman | I don't like that \dt is the only statement for showing all tables |
| 18:09.42 | Hanuman | I'm used to using SQL for all of that |
| 18:09.47 | Bradipo | I'm sure you could use SQL for that. |
| 18:09.53 | Bradipo | That's just a shortcut. |
| 18:09.55 | Hanuman | MySQL: "show tables" |
| 18:10.01 | Hanuman | Oracle: "select * from tab" |
| 18:10.09 | Hanuman | how would you use sql |
| 18:10.16 | Hanuman | it was hard enough even finding that on Google |
| 18:10.30 | Bradipo | Hmm, you must not have read the postgres documentation... |
| 18:10.34 | Bradipo | Much better than searching with google. |
| 18:10.52 | Hanuman | I guess I could have tried that first, couldn't I, but where is the PostGres docs? |
| 18:10.54 | Bradipo | Their documentation is pretty easy to follow and covers most of the basics. |
| 18:11.09 | Hanuman | last I checked even those were hard to find |
| 18:11.27 | Bradipo | Didn't look very hard I guess: http://www.postgresql.org/ |
| 18:11.34 | sjansen | docs.postgresql.org IIRC |
| 18:11.48 | Bradipo | Let's see, there's ``Download, Mirrors, Lists, Users, Developers, Docs...'' |
| 18:11.52 | Bradipo | I wonder what Docs is all about? :-) |
| 18:12.02 | Hanuman | their website has changed from what I remember |
| 18:12.08 | sjansen | http://www.postgresql.org/docs/ |
| 18:12.15 | Bradipo | Maybe. |
| 18:12.30 | Bradipo | Also, they have good online help. |
| 18:12.31 | Jayce^ | got a pg flaming of mysql going on in sllug... the usual suspects going for it :) |
| 18:12.33 | sjansen | They have very good docs. |
| 18:12.40 | Bradipo | online, meaning built into the psql command. |
| 18:12.56 | Bradipo | \h |
| 18:13.04 | sjansen | This page is hilarious. http://sql-info.de/mysql/gotchas.html |
| 18:13.09 | Hanuman | I couldn't find anything through \h |
| 18:13.20 | Bradipo | In fact, when you first start psql it gives you some start points. |
| 18:13.22 | Hanuman | \h didn't tell me how to show all tables |
| 18:13.25 | Bradipo | \? |
| 18:13.33 | Hanuman | \? didn't either |
| 18:13.44 | Bradipo | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:13.45 | Bradipo | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:13.46 | Hanuman | I may have been using it wrong, though |
| 18:14.10 | Bradipo | That's from \? |
| 18:14.16 | Hanuman | missed that |
| 18:14.23 | Hanuman | so how do you do it with SQL? |
| 18:14.30 | Bradipo | Not sure. |
| 18:14.41 | Bradipo | You would have to know the name of the table that stores all the table names. |
| 18:14.54 | Bradipo | I don't know enough about the internals to know that. |
| 18:14.58 | Bradipo | probably pg_something |
| 18:15.17 | Bradipo | There are about 50 pg_* tables |
| 18:15.23 | Hanuman | I was just trying to hurry through it all, so I'm not flaming PostGres - I just didn't have anywhere to start |
| 18:15.40 | Bradipo | How about: select * from pg_tables; |
| 18:15.52 | Hanuman | cool - that's the one I was looking for |
| 18:16.04 | Bradipo | By the way, psql has tab completion... |
| 18:16.06 | Hanuman | I like \d better - just wanted an sql way to do it, too though |
| 18:16.14 | Hanuman | so does MySQL |
| 18:16.14 | Bradipo | That's how I found it: select * from pg_<TAB> |
| 18:16.24 | Hanuman | sqlplus does not, though |
| 18:16.31 | Hanuman | ahh...cool |
| 18:16.49 | sjansen | http://www.postgresql.org/docs/7.3/static/catalogs.html |
| 18:17.16 | Hanuman | very nice |
| 18:17.26 | Hanuman | like I said, I was in a hurry last night |
| 18:17.32 | Bradipo | Yeah. |
| 18:17.59 | Hanuman | It's easy to flame when you're frustration is your own fault |
| 18:19.06 | Bonez39 | waht is an .swf file? graphic of some sort? |
| 18:19.17 | hans | shockwave |
| 18:19.53 | Bonez39 | ah, there are shockwave files on my web site too..for those little boxes..or for the links next to them.. |
| 18:21.19 | Bonez39 | back in 30"have to make the post office/bank run... |
| 18:21.46 | sjansen | I thought it was shockwave _flash_. |
| 18:22.30 | hans | probably |
| 18:37.29 | neybar | I think I would like psql better if it was /d instead of \d... /me grumbles about reaching across his keyboard |
| 18:40.17 | Hanuman | neybar: that was another complaint of mine |
| 18:51.53 | neybar | anyone know of an "egg timer" applet? I need something that will ding, or pop-up telling me to get away from the computer every hour :-) |
| 18:52.12 | Jayce^ | trying to break your productivity? :) |
| 18:53.06 | hans | neybar: for wrist breaks? |
| 18:53.25 | levi | Isn't something like that supposed to be built into the latest Gnome release? |
| 18:54.19 | neybar | yup |
| 18:56.19 | hans | xwrits works well |
| 19:02.05 | tensai | hans: what settings for xwrits do you use? |
| 19:09.25 | neybar | xwrits looks like exactly what I am looking for |
| 19:09.47 | sjansen | http://www.imendio.com/projects/drwright/ |
| 19:09.52 | hans | xwrits typetime=60 breaktime=5 +mouse +quota +breakclock +cheat after 5 clock& |
| 19:12.16 | Bonez39 | back a while |
| 19:13.15 | Bonez39 | hans: about that shockwave issue..(since you handled that other one so swiftly).... some pages have box elements..and yet, I can find no links, no href references to them on those pages when viewing the source...just lots of shockwave stuff... |
| 19:13.47 | hans | shockwave is out of my league |
| 19:13.56 | Hanuman | Bonez39: what's the URL? |
| 19:14.00 | Bonez39 | hans: how do I correct the links when there is nothing there in the first place ? I believe they are wrapped in or part of the shockwave codidng, but am not sure..I guess I'll have to do some reading on it |
| 19:14.17 | Bonez39 | Hanuman: it is www.2ndlanguagesuccess.com |
| 19:14.27 | Hanuman | Is that the page w/ the problems? |
| 19:14.30 | Bonez39 | specific page is /industrires.htm |
| 19:14.46 | Bonez39 | add that subpage to it..and that is one page where the problem lies |
| 19:15.03 | Hanuman | ok - that one again |
| 19:15.37 | Hanuman | are you talking about the boxes next to Home, Products & Services, etc? |
| 19:16.24 | sjansen | Bonez39: Just copy from a page that is working. |
| 19:16.53 | Bonez39 | sjansen: ah, ok, that's what I planned to do, but where to put the code from the one to the other... |
| 19:16.55 | Hanuman | Bonez39: I think that's Flash, not shockwave |
| 19:17.07 | Bonez39 | where I insert it in the other non0-working code makes a difference, right? |
| 19:17.14 | Hanuman | Bonez39: are you talking about the boxes next to Home, Products & Services, etc? |
| 19:17.28 | Bonez39 | Hanuman: figured it was shockwave due to the few files with .swf extensions |
| 19:17.41 | Bonez39 | Hanuman: yeah, those boxes there..they work fine on other pages in the site |
| 19:17.42 | hans | .swf is shockwave flash I think (aka just 'flash') |
| 19:18.04 | Bonez39 | ok...thanks for the clarification, Hans |
| 19:18.07 | Hanuman | hans: your right - just looked at the source |
| 19:19.00 | sjansen | Bonez39: That's not going to be easy to explain if you don't know how to read html. |
| 19:19.07 | brailsmt | neybar: you could write a simple cron job to do that... (the break reminder thing) |
| 19:19.57 | sjansen | brailsmt: cron really isn't the right solution. It doesn't detect when you're already taking a break. (Sorry to be shooting you down so much today.) |
| 19:20.05 | Bonez39 | sjansen: I am determined to learn how to wade through it...I have a little knowledge..enough to be dangerous.. |
| 19:21.00 | brailsmt | sjansen: but a simple "xmessage Take a break\!" in your crontab is really really simple, and you can kill the window(s) when you get back, if youare already on a break |
| 19:21.01 | sjansen | Start by finding an error. |
| 19:21.24 | brailsmt | you can't beat that for a simple solution |
| 19:21.28 | Hanuman | Bonez39: check your embed tag |
| 19:21.32 | sjansen | Locate something near it that you recognize. |
| 19:21.34 | Hanuman | base="" on one |
| 19:21.40 | Hanuman | on the other it's base="." |
| 19:21.42 | hans | brailsmt: not a good solution, really |
| 19:21.50 | brailsmt | all your base are belong to me |
| 19:21.54 | Hanuman | I believe it should be base="." |
| 19:22.18 | sjansen | Find the similar spot on a working page. |
| 19:22.28 | brailsmt | *sigh* |
| 19:22.30 | Hanuman | I imagine that's the path of where it's pulling the graphic from |
| 19:22.40 | hans | a good solution (i.e. something better than setting the timer on your stove which has the benefit of being annoying and you have to actually stand up) would detect your activity (doing little typing, don't force me to take a break) |
| 19:22.42 | sjansen | Copy the value. (Doing mental filtering or course.) |
| 19:22.50 | brailsmt | how do I set up an ssh tunnel? |
| 19:23.22 | sjansen | Part of the advantage of CSS + XHTML is that it is much more readable and logical that a mess of tables. |
| 19:23.23 | Hanuman | Bonez39: does that make sense? |
| 19:23.31 | hans | a simple dialog box will be closed subconciously and you'll forget all about taking breaks, if you're in the zone |
| 19:23.56 | hans | if you really want it to force you to take a break it has to be persistent and not easily overridable (but overridable) |
| 19:24.07 | Hanuman | sjansen: yes, all those swf files could be replace with just text and css |
| 19:24.12 | sjansen | brailsmt: What direction do you want the tunnel. |
| 19:24.23 | Hanuman | then search engines can read them, they can be easily modified, etc |
| 19:24.49 | sjansen | Bonez39: Switching to text, not graphics, is a real advantage. |
| 19:24.49 | brailsmt | you could put "killall vim" in your cron instead of athe xmessage box... :) |
| 19:24.55 | brailsmt | that would get your attention |
| 19:24.59 | brailsmt | :) |
| 19:25.10 | Jayce^ | gahhh... that would really hurt |
| 19:25.10 | brailsmt | from home to work |
| 19:25.28 | sjansen | Like Hanuman said, it's more search engine friendly. It's also more accessible by people with special needs. |
| 19:25.32 | Hanuman | Bonez39: I would also recommend those tutorials on w3schools.com - quick and easy |
| 19:25.35 | Jayce^ | my wife would like a button that did that.. something she could push on her computer to take my attention away from mine |
| 19:25.46 | brailsmt | i can't ssh directly to the machines at work, I have to first ssh to the CS machine, and then to the work machines... |
| 19:25.50 | sjansen | Jayce^: Don't let her know about the power button. |
| 19:26.05 | Hanuman | easier to edit too than swf |
| 19:26.18 | brailsmt | i often pop up xmessage's to my wife when she is on the computer... |
| 19:26.28 | brailsmt | it scared her at first, but not anymore |
| 19:26.41 | Hanuman | w/ or w/o a graphical editor |
| 19:26.51 | hans | brailsmt: I use a simpler (from a user's standpoint) solution: IM |
| 19:26.53 | Hanuman | brailsmt: I love doing that |
| 19:26.59 | sjansen | Accessiblity is increasingly becoming a legal responsiblity. You might soon be forced to do it, so might as well start now making gradual, painless changes. |
| 19:27.12 | brailsmt | hans: i usually pop up a message telling to start up IM :) |
| 19:27.18 | Hanuman | sjansen: all government agencies are required by law to do it |
| 19:27.35 | sjansen | brailsmt: So you want to skip the CS machine, or what? |
| 19:27.50 | hans | brailsmt: check out autossh |
| 19:27.57 | brailsmt | sjansen: yeah, I would like to be able to eliminate the middle step |
| 19:28.24 | brailsmt | at least from my perspective... |
| 19:28.39 | sjansen | You'll have to log into at least once to start a port forward.... |
| 19:29.03 | sjansen | Why not just setup public key authentication and the key agent instead? |
| 19:29.07 | brailsmt | sjansen: A little script can handle that though I am sure... :) |
| 19:29.11 | sjansen | It'll be less brittle. |
| 19:30.19 | sjansen | You can set it up so that when you log into the... oh, but wait, that depends on the CS admins. |
| 19:30.34 | brailsmt | sjansen: the problem is that I have to get on a campus network before the name resolution will work... |
| 19:30.40 | sjansen | emcnabb: Have you setup key forwarding correctly? |
| 19:31.10 | sjansen | Right. You'd keep bounce through the CS machine or another machine with a public IP. |
| 19:31.29 | sjansen | Where is work and where are you coming from? |
| 19:32.16 | brailsmt | work is on et.byu.edu network |
| 19:32.19 | hans | brailsmt: I've already solved this problem using autossh |
| 19:32.22 | hans | autossh -2 -N -M 20000 -R 2200:localhost:22 ${ID}@${HOST} > /dev/null 2>&1 & |
| 19:32.50 | hans | run that on the hidden computer, then ssh into $HOST on port 2200 |
| 19:33.49 | brailsmt | so I put that on the CS machine, and then ssh to that CS machine on port 2200 and I get into work? |
| 19:34.04 | sjansen | You can't escape the fact that you need a machine with a public IP if you want to come in from a random computer. |
| 19:34.10 | Bonez39 | hans: enough of the web tinkering for now..any other suggestions on apt-get updates that may help with my gnome login problem? Is it possible to change from using GDM and have it load something else, or someother graphical environment ? |
| 19:34.43 | Jayce^ | kdm, and xdm are alternatives |
| 19:34.56 | Jayce^ | but if your problem is with pam, they would have the same issues |
| 19:34.57 | sjansen | Bonez39: Sure. kdm is kinda nice. xdm is ugly |
| 19:35.09 | Jayce^ | but if gdm is the problem, it might fix it |
| 19:35.14 | Jayce^ | sjansen, agreed |
| 19:35.21 | Hanuman | Bonez39: did my suggestion help? |
| 19:35.23 | sjansen | The advantage of gdm is that it was a rewrite with security in mind. But with XDMCP disabled, that shouldn't matter much. |
| 19:35.35 | Bonez39 | Jayce^: I have run apt-get install libpam-modules to update those and the install seemed to proceed ok....but still did not resolve the problem |
| 19:35.48 | Bonez39 | Hanuman: yes, it is helping |
| 19:35.49 | hans | Bonez39: so you can or can't log in at the virtual console? |
| 19:35.52 | sjansen | Hanuman: You just want him to tell you that you explain things as well as hans. ;-) |
| 19:36.02 | Hanuman | sjansen: exactly |
| 19:36.04 | Hanuman | ;-) |
| 19:36.49 | Bonez39 | hans: yes..when I boot up the 2.4.18 console, I am able to log in ... in a way..I enter maintenance mode...which requires root pass...but at that point I can su to my user name and change it's password around.... |
| 19:37.25 | Bonez39 | does that answer the question? if I try to log in from a virtual console after attempting to load the gdm login...that does NOT work...still gives error...login invalid. |
| 19:38.13 | Jayce^ | speech, speech .... :d |
| 19:38.13 | Bonez39 | yeah...my system has difficult bugs |
| 19:38.29 | sjansen | ~lart Bonez39's bug |
| 19:40.13 | Hanuman | Bonez39: can you turn the gdm off, then login? |
| 19:40.35 | Hanuman | (through /etc/sysconfig/init I believe) |
| 19:40.56 | Hanuman | sorry - not the gdm, the graphical login (whatever that's called) |
| 19:41.21 | Bonez39 | Hanuman: how would I turn gdm off? ok, I'llcheck that...brb |
| 19:41.35 | hans | Bonez39: try uninstalling gdm altogether |
| 19:41.38 | Hanuman | Bonez39: I believe you change the runlevel in there to 3 |
| 19:41.40 | hans | apt-get remove gdm |
| 19:41.46 | hans | apt-get remove gdm kdm xdm wdm |
| 19:41.51 | hans | (some probably not installed) |
| 19:42.13 | hans | then when you get logins working you can install a graphical display manager again |
| 19:42.15 | sjansen | What Hanuman is saying is edit /etc/inittab and change id:5:initdefault: to id:3:initdefault |
| 19:42.30 | Hanuman | sjansen: that's what I mean - redhat's a bit different than Debian |
| 19:42.33 | hans | sjansen, Hanuman: that don't do what you think in debian |
| 19:42.34 | sjansen | Of course, gentoo has a slightly different boot setup. |
| 19:42.51 | sjansen | Oh, is he on debian? |
| 19:42.53 | hans | yeah |
| 19:42.56 | Hanuman | oh, a gentoo user, eh? |
| 19:43.05 | Hanuman | one of those... |
| 19:43.07 | Hanuman | ;-) |
| 19:43.08 | sjansen | apt-get remove debian ; apt-get install rh9 |
| 19:43.16 | Hanuman | sjansen: amen to that |
| 19:43.19 | hans | there we go again. apt used to be enough to distinguish the true distro |
| 19:43.33 | Hanuman | yum remove debian; yum install rh9 |
| 19:43.45 | Hanuman | hans: there you go |
| 19:43.51 | sjansen | Bonez39: Debian is not the One True Distro. |
| 19:43.51 | hans | now the icky port of apt which has more bugs than anything I've seen is assumed by default |
| 19:44.09 | hans | ;-) |
| 19:44.23 | sjansen | Gentoo is the One True Distro (If You Have Enough Time). Redhat is the One True Distro (If You Don't Have Time) |
| 19:44.27 | Bonez39 | sjansen: oh, I know.but it's what I have right now |
| 19:44.53 | Jayce^ | blah, gentoo |
| 19:44.57 | Hanuman | sjansen: never used Gentoo, but never had a problem I couldn't fix in Redhat |
| 19:45.09 | Jayce^ | if you're going to use gentoo, just use freebsd :D |
| 19:45.12 | sjansen | Jayce^: You wanted me to say what? Sorcerer? |
| 19:45.23 | Jayce^ | sourcemage :) not sorcerer |
| 19:45.38 | sjansen | What ever, it's all a backwater unpopular distro. |
| 19:45.58 | Bonez39 | hans: will remove those and then reboot and see where it goes...hold on |
| 19:46.11 | Terminator | Debian is the only true distro. Listen to me! I will remove your puny distros from this shrunken planet. |
| 19:46.15 | sjansen | If Sourcemage were so great, more people would use it. ;-) |
| 19:46.43 | Terminator | s/sourcemage/linux/ |
| 19:46.44 | sjansen | Oops, wrong window. Though this was the Utah Windows Users Group. |
| 19:46.52 | Jayce^ | actually, it's got some really good growth.. |
| 19:47.25 | governator | move to california |
| 19:47.27 | sjansen | Does it run on PPC? |
| 19:47.41 | brailsmt | governator is known as nick_abuser |
| 19:47.47 | Jayce^ | sjansen, beta.. same with sparc, |
| 19:47.57 | Jayce^ | well, the iso is beta.. some people have it running fine.. |
| 19:48.20 | Bonez39 | how does one bundle objects, can I just type apt-get remove gdm xdm wdm...will that take care of each in turn? |
| 19:48.29 | sjansen | Maybe I should put it on my laptop some time. |
| 19:48.36 | sjansen | PPC, that is. |
| 19:48.44 | Jayce^ | maybe... |
| 19:48.59 | Jayce^ | think sjansen, you should love it.. all in bash/make :) |
| 19:49.12 | sjansen | Yeah. Gentoo is switching to Python. :-( |
| 19:49.22 | brailsmt | gentoo has always been python |
| 19:49.24 | sjansen | Does it handle uninstalls? |
| 19:49.34 | sjansen | No, it started life as bash. |
| 19:49.46 | brailsmt | ever since I started using it has been python |
| 19:49.57 | brailsmt | i have been using it for about a year and a half now |
| 19:49.58 | Jayce^ | sjansen, of course.. |
| 19:50.02 | sjansen | Now that you mention that, you're right. But the package files were still bash like. |
| 19:50.20 | brailsmt | they still are... |
| 19:50.33 | brailsmt | afaik, tey aren't going to change the ebuild format |
| 19:50.56 | sjansen | How does it handle uninstalls? Does it do dependency checking? |
| 19:51.34 | Jayce^ | of course it does all that.. |
| 19:51.39 | sjansen | One of the things I loved about Gentoo was that it kept track of which packages I'd explicitly installed. The framework was there to detect unneeded packages. |
| 19:51.57 | sjansen | But uninstalls were still trash when I stopped using Gentoo. |
| 19:54.51 | Bonez39 | hans: still here? I uninstalled the gdm and others..now I get a prompt after it boots...and root can log in, but my user name can NOT... |
| 19:55.22 | governator | hmm. but root can, eh? |
| 19:55.36 | governator | what error when username tries? |
| 19:56.12 | Bonez39 | yeah, root is ok, when user name is tried, it says....System bootup in progress please wait..and after a few seconds it just returns the login prompt.... |
| 19:56.24 | hans | ok, login as root and remove /etc/nologin |
| 19:56.28 | hans | then try to log in as a user |
| 19:56.30 | Bonez39 | it does that with root, but returns a password prompt instead..and then proceeds to authenticate and logs root in |
| 19:57.06 | Bonez39 | this feels like surgery over the phone..hehe. .. must be how those guys at mission control feel..when launching a shuttle... |
| 19:57.22 | hans | now press the red button. wait! no not that red button! |
| 19:57.45 | sjansen | Now take out a large hammer and carefully, carefully.... |
| 19:57.54 | sjansen | swing that thing at your monitor with all your force. |
| 19:58.27 | Bonez39 | sjansen: do not TEMPT me...please..I need no encouragement! |
| 19:59.06 | sjansen | So suggesting that you get a permanent marker and scribble nasty messages about Debian all over you computer..... that would be a bad thing? |
| 19:59.58 | Bonez39 | hans: I am excited...clearing the /etc/nologin worked..I can login with my user name "scott" now |
| 20:00.05 | Bonez39 | does this mean I am outta the woods yet? |
| 20:00.18 | neybar | yes, now just two mountain ranges to go |
| 20:00.20 | hans | sjansen: I think he really wants to lart fsck |
| 20:00.21 | sjansen | Bonez39: Are you still running Debian (other than stable)? |
| 20:00.28 | Bonez39 | I am logged in to 2.4.20 under which for some reason I have no net access, but in 2.4.18 I have access... |
| 20:00.50 | Bonez39 | debian, yeah....am I including testing and unstable in my /etc/apt/sources.list? yeah? |
| 20:00.57 | hans | Bonez39: maybe. the question is why was nologin still there. It's supposed to be deleted when booting is done (in /etc/init.d/bootmisc.sh) |
| 20:01.07 | Bonez39 | sjansen: but that's just so that I can runa nd install other things that just the stable version does NOT allow |
| 20:01.26 | Bonez39 | hans: no idea why it was still there |
| 20:01.49 | sjansen | Bonez39: Then you're not out of the woods. |
| 20:01.54 | Bonez39 | I mean, clearly my nic and hookup to the hub..are working, if I can access the net in one version but not in a later one.. |
| 20:02.27 | Bonez39 | sjansen: how about a couple cats then and a big chain so that I can greenchain my way outta the trees then.. |
| 20:02.34 | hans | now try rebooting |
| 20:02.38 | sjansen | All my experiences with Debian have been painful. |
| 20:03.04 | Bonez39 | ok.. |
| 20:03.40 | Bonez39 | hans: should I boot to 2.4.18 with access or 2.4.20 without? |
| 20:03.53 | hans | sjansen: and all my experiences and memories of redhat are pain |
| 20:04.07 | hans | sjansen: so let's call a truce |
| 20:04.14 | sjansen | So a co-workder just asked me about ksoftirqd_CPU0 and what's the first things that I find? Our own Hans Fugal responding to a question about it on the debian lists. |
| 20:04.30 | hans | Bonez39: just do 2.4.18. we can figure out kernel network issues later |
| 20:04.41 | sjansen | What's the low down on ksoftirqd_CPU0? |
| 20:05.07 | sjansen | s/responding/asking/ |
| 20:05.12 | hans | ksoftirqd_CPU0? me? man that sounds like greek to me. what did I say? |
| 20:06.17 | hans | oh, that was a question to debian-hppa. seems like the hppa kernel likes to think that thingy was using all the processor. it was an illusion, really |
| 20:06.36 | hans | i.e. no performance implications |
| 20:06.45 | Bonez39 | ok...hans: it's rebooted now |
| 20:06.51 | hans | and can you log in? |
| 20:07.51 | Bonez39 | hans: I can as root only. I still get that crap if as user: but if I log in as root, clear the /etc/nologin and then exit and then get a login, I can log in as a user.. |
| 20:08.01 | Bonez39 | so it's still f'd up.... somewhere |
| 20:09.05 | sjansen | Are you noticing an fsck during boot? |
| 20:09.23 | hans | sjansen: he had a nasty fsck which is what started all this |
| 20:09.27 | Bonez39 | sjansen: yeah, fsck shows up....and the drive partition information |
| 20:09.42 | Bonez39 | hans: yeah, all started with a cold boot from a machine that would not respond... |
| 20:09.52 | Bonez39 | and here I am..instead of using my machine....as I should be |
| 20:10.08 | sjansen | Might not be hardware. Might just have to rebuild the filesystem. |
| 20:10.13 | hans | Bonez39: do you have /etc/init.d/rmnologin? |
| 20:10.18 | sjansen | As in reinitilize and reinstall any file. |
| 20:10.32 | Bonez39 | hans: I will go and check on that..should it exist? ? |
| 20:10.35 | hans | yes |
| 20:10.40 | Bonez39 | ok |
| 20:10.54 | hans | $ md5sum /etc/init.d/rmnologin |
| 20:10.54 | hans | 6aba9ffa161e15f5d7887e0a1f75493f /etc/init.d/rmnologin |
| 20:11.09 | Bonez39 | hans: yeah, it's there |
| 20:11.24 | Bonez39 | Ihave a patient due any moment..so I might disappear for a short while...20" but here until then |
| 20:12.01 | hans | $ find /etc -iname '*rmnologin' |
| 20:12.01 | hans | /etc/init.d/rmnologin |
| 20:12.01 | hans | /etc/rc2.d/S99rmnologin |
| 20:12.01 | hans | /etc/rc3.d/S99rmnologin |
| 20:12.01 | hans | /etc/rc4.d/S99rmnologin |
| 20:12.04 | hans | /etc/rc5.d/S99rmnologin |
| 20:14.17 | Bonez39 | ok I find it in some of those other places too |
| 20:14.29 | hans | is it in rc2.d? |
| 20:15.02 | Bonez39 | no, just in /etc/init.d and in /etc/rc4.d and /etc/rc5.d |
| 20:15.18 | hans | if not, ln -s /etc/init.d/rmnologin /etc/rc2.d/S99rmnologin |
| 20:15.30 | Bonez39 | ok |
| 20:15.46 | sjansen | hans: You'll have to explain the Debian boot process to me some time. |
| 20:16.17 | Bonez39 | brb |
| 20:16.43 | hans | sjansen: as in sysv init stuff? Just the default is levels 2-5 are all the same (so the system administrator can customize levels to his liking) |
| 20:17.17 | sjansen | So why did you say the /etc/inittab change wouldn't work? |
| 20:17.53 | sjansen | Oh, okay, re-reading I understand. |
| 20:18.39 | sjansen | So Debian goes to rc2 by default. And every run level is configured the same until changed. |
| 20:20.11 | hans | yup |
| 20:24.28 | Jayce^ | what is it with me and printer ink... I can run black out of a cheap printer in 1 pass |
| 20:25.00 | *** join/#utah synic_ (~synic@cpe-66-87-26-56.ut.sprintbbd.net) |
| 20:25.02 | Jayce^ | I *had* notes for plug :) but can't print them |
| 20:25.12 | hans | heh |
| 20:25.22 | tensai | Jayce^: email them over and I'll print them. :) |
| 20:25.35 | Jayce^ | lol.. sure, if you'll come :) |
| 20:25.50 | sjansen | That's why I'm never buying an ink jet again. They're scams. |
| 20:26.09 | Jayce^ | oh yeah |
| 20:27.39 | Jayce^ | anybody who is actually coming willing to print something out? |
| 20:28.57 | hans | sjansen: and editing runlevels is really quite elegant if you use the file rc system instead of the sysv rc system (e.g. edit a conf file instead of managing symlinks) |
| 20:29.00 | hans | oh pity |
| 20:31.14 | neybar | Jayce^: it doesn't sound like we are going to get much sleep tonight |
| 20:31.56 | Jayce^ | oh? |
| 20:32.50 | hans | neybar: are you going to hang out until 9? |
| 20:32.59 | hans | or at least, say, 7:30? |
| 20:37.10 | Bonez39 | back |
| 20:45.49 | neybar | I will be there from 3:30 til ~ 5:30, then I will come back around 9ish |
| 20:45.51 | bonez39 | hmmmm, all quiet on the ethereal front. |
| 20:45.57 | bonez39 | oh, there's life..thanks neybar |
| 20:46.29 | bonez39 | hans: ok, after linking that file..now I can log in,...at the first prompt.... |
| 20:46.50 | bonez39 | now, I can see clear sky, outside the trees...am getting close to the forest's edge |
| 20:47.35 | hans | bonez39: you deserve a break. go stand in the lord of the rings line and enjoy yourself. :) |
| 20:47.47 | hans | apt-get install gdm (or kdm) |
| 20:48.01 | hans | then see if you can login through gdm |
| 20:48.27 | bonez39 | ok... |
| 20:48.43 | Jayce^ | bonez39, "You find yourself at the end of a driveway. beside you there is a white mailbox... down the road, an old farmhouse" |
| 20:48.50 | Jayce^ | (trying to remember things from a long time ago) |
| 20:48.53 | bonez39 | is it likely that rebooting, the cold boot, somehow corrupted the link or wiped out that one file? |
| 20:49.04 | hans | possible. is rc2.d full of other useful files? |
| 20:49.22 | hans | if it's only got that one in it you have more fun ahead. :) |
| 20:49.58 | bonez39 | hans? not sure, it's installing now...from apt-get get... |
| 20:51.16 | bonez39 | if this works..then my next move is to spend a few hours with dselect and aptitude..and figure out how to pare away all the stuff I don't need, want or use.....to free up more room.... |
| 20:51.49 | bonez39 | hans: when this finishes and allows me to log back in...what about the network access? I figure it's just somefile or link as this was...that's been hosed..by the cold boot |
| 20:52.33 | hans | bonez39: probably just need to recompile your kernel |
| 20:52.56 | hans | fairly easy, esp. since your config should be the same (it used to work with 2.4.20 right?) |
| 20:53.27 | hans | you might think about figuring out how to reinstall without killing your /home though because you never know what's gonna turn up broken next |
| 20:55.10 | bonez39 | hans: yeah, it all worked just fine with 2.4.20 |
| 20:55.26 | brailsmt | http://www.officemax.com/max/solutions/product/prodBlock.jsp?bvc=yes&expansionOID=-536879621&prodBlockOID=536956700 <-- very comfy |
| 20:55.29 | bonez39 | hans: a huge hard drive is likely my best bet..... |
| 20:55.51 | hans | i'd just live with whatever isn't a big pain until that happens if it's not too far away |
| 20:56.09 | hans | but we can help you get your 2.4.20 kernel going again if you need to |
| 20:56.14 | bonez39 | hans: its asking now whether to keep current /etc/pam.d/other or to install one in package? |
| 20:56.23 | hans | install |
| 20:56.25 | bonez39 | ok... |
| 20:56.45 | bonez39 | it's off and running |
| 20:56.56 | bonez39 | I guess when it's done..then I reboot and cross my fingers, right? |
| 20:58.32 | hans | what's running? |
| 20:59.03 | synic_ | bonez39, I'm doing fine (answering your question from early yesterday :) ) |
| 20:59.14 | synic_ | how's the bonez39 ? |
| 20:59.19 | hans | synic_: you are a true devoted irc backlog reader |
| 20:59.59 | synic_ | well, I wouldn't go as far as that. I noticed that the tab changed color in X-Chat, and went back to see who had mentioned my nick :) |
| 21:02.56 | bonez39 | synic: hmmm, glad your bonez are fine, synic..;) |
| 21:07.42 | bonez39 | hans: it's fine, it booted into the gnome desktop now...this is with the 2.4.18 kernel...so net access is present... |
| 21:08.11 | bonez39 | but, I can't sync my palm, which has not been synced in a few weeks now..that's what I am hoping to get to...which works fine with 2.4.20 kernel |
| 21:11.01 | bonez39 | it's feast or famine here..I logged on, ran apt-get update..that was ok..but a few non-working links in my sources file..ok, but then I issues du /sh /* and it froze solid....after showing a few directories.. |
| 21:16.58 | bonez39 | hmm it froze so I hit reset..now it's back showing fsck failure.and I am running fsck /dev/hda1 |
| 21:17.08 | bonez39 | this is where I started before... |
| 21:17.42 | bonez39 | I am wondering if when I issued the 'du' command that the reading from the disk failed..and froze it |
| 21:18.59 | hans | bonez39: let us know how the fsck results |
| 21:19.14 | bonez39 | ok.....my disc is just all fscked up..hehehehe |
| 21:19.17 | hans | it's possible. |
| 21:19.28 | hans | (that du caused a hardware error) |
| 21:19.34 | hans | if the hardware is finnicky |
| 21:19.43 | hans | I'd think hard about getting that new hard drive. :) |
| 21:19.44 | bonez39 | yeah, possible |
| 21:19.47 | hans | and back up your /home asap |
| 21:19.51 | bonez39 | ok I will |
| 21:20.14 | hans | when it rains it pours, eh? |
| 21:20.28 | bonez39 | love to get something big, migrate everything over..and then wipe the two drives in that system..and use to store mp3's and other storage |
| 21:21.19 | bonez39 | well, the gnome is booting back up now |
| 21:21.39 | bonez39 | so, mal sehen |
| 21:23.31 | bonez39 | it's booted back up..no du for a while..;) |
| 21:23.38 | bonez39 | going to run a few other things.... |
| 21:25.09 | bonez39 | hans: any more ideas on the networking? I am going to try booting into 2.4.20..and see what happens. |
| 21:25.28 | hans | first |
| 21:25.40 | hans | what module does your card use again? tulip? |
| 21:26.19 | bonez39 | tulip..yeah |
| 21:26.32 | hans | ok, so if you know that we should be able to figure out what's wrong |
| 21:26.44 | bonez39 | and I have run lsmod and modprobe and it finds the module for it in 2.4.20 |
| 21:27.11 | hans | have you looked in the logs? |
| 21:27.13 | hans | anything telling? |
| 21:27.31 | bonez39 | one thing that keeps coming up is that /etc/modules is newer than some other file.. |
| 21:27.39 | bonez39 | in /var/log/messages? |
| 21:27.43 | hans | that's not unusual |
| 21:27.48 | hans | probably /var/log/syslog |
| 21:27.52 | hans | but maybe messages |
| 21:28.31 | bonez39 | 2.4.20 boots to and past the gnome login too |
| 21:29.44 | bonez39 | I am looking for tulip anything, right? |
| 21:29.52 | hans | yeah |
| 21:30.43 | bonez39 | ok... |
| 21:32.41 | bonez39 | ok, it shows the tulip driver, but then a next line shows tulip0: no phy info, aborting stable build, then eth0 Macronix..which is the correct NIC name..and information |
| 21:32.57 | bonez39 | apt-get install tulip? |
| 21:33.01 | bonez39 | something like that? |
| 21:35.33 | brailsmt | :140 |
| 21:35.36 | brailsmt | oops... |
| 21:35.38 | brailsmt | wrong window |
| 21:35.40 | brailsmt | :) |
| 21:35.47 | bonez39 | ok |
| 21:35.53 | brailsmt | guess what app I am using :) |
| 21:36.29 | bonez39 | hmmm not sure, what? |
| 21:37.03 | brailsmt | hint: a colon precedes the command :) |
| 21:38.10 | brailsmt | hint: what editor am I known to use :) |
| 21:38.46 | hans | 140G is easier for me than :140<cr> |
| 21:38.49 | hans | but to each his own |
| 21:39.02 | bonez39 | hans: here's what it returns when I modprobe tulip: /etc/modules.conf is more recent than /lib/modules/2.4.18-686/modules.dep |
| 21:39.30 | hans | run update-modules and it will get rid of that warning. but it doesn't matter |
| 21:40.07 | brailsmt | hans: 140G save a keystroke... but :<num> is ingrained in my head :) |
| 21:40.29 | bonez39 | ok.. |
| 21:40.37 | hans | wow, lucky you didn't get emacs engrained in your head then. ;-) |
| 21:40.59 | bonez39 | ok.... |
| 21:43.55 | brailsmt | no kidding |
| 21:43.55 | brailsmt | :) |
| 21:46.30 | bonez39 | hmmm with 4.2.18..browser works...it's all working that way, just no pilot..no synching.. |
| 22:06.20 | bonez39 | I try to open aptitudeand get an error...Error opening xterm |
| 22:06.31 | bonez39 | do I need to apt-get install xterm? |
| 22:06.37 | bonez39 | or update x somehow? |
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| 22:29.38 | bonez39 | back later |
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