| 00:13.26 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 00:33.58 | *** join/#utah Bonez39 (~Bonez@206.71.67.22) |
| 06:34.39 | *** join/#utah Mecworks (marc@208.186.182.174) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 06:34.45 | *** join/#utah Bradipo (~amb@ip-64-32-156-231.dsl.lax.megapath.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 06:35.05 | *** join/#utah Hanuman (~jstayii@pool-141-152-11-122.rich.east.verizon.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 07:15.01 | *** join/#utah Jayce^ (~Jayce^@65.218.37.161) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 07:15.01 | *** join/#utah Hanuman (~jstayii@pool-141-152-11-122.rich.east.verizon.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 07:15.01 | *** join/#utah Bradipo (~amb@ip-64-32-156-231.dsl.lax.megapath.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 07:15.01 | *** join/#utah Mecworks (marc@208.186.182.174) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 07:15.01 | *** join/#utah Bonez39 (~Bonez@206.71.67.22) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 07:15.01 | *** join/#utah hans (~fugalh@byu074948wks.rn.byu.edu) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 07:15.01 | *** join/#utah brailsmt_ (~michael@12-254-250-249.client.attbi.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 07:15.01 | *** join/#utah albino (~albino@neuf.dorms.usu.edu) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 07:15.01 | *** join/#utah brailsmt (~michael@12-254-250-249.client.attbi.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 07:15.01 | *** join/#utah levi (~levi@208.177.141.226) |
| 07:15.01 | *** join/#utah ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) |
| 07:15.01 | *** mode/#utah [+oo Jayce^ ChanServ] by einstein.freenode.net |
| 08:28.28 | *** join/#utah isafam (~isafam@dial-62-64-224-219.access.uk.tiscali.com) |
| 14:18.59 | *** join/#utah elg (fugalh@byu081072wks.byu.edu) |
| 14:49.39 | *** join/#utah jtate (~jtate@rdu74-181-041.nc.rr.com) |
| 15:03.45 | *** join/#utah tensai (~tensai@dsl.dyn.02-59.budget.net) |
| 15:03.53 | Hanuman | greetings, #Utah'ers! |
| 15:08.04 | Jayce^ | wow, everybody read about ximian? |
| 15:10.42 | Hanuman | yeah - I was going to mention that - that's good for all you OSS programmers in Utah |
| 15:10.52 | Hanuman | hopefully it means more OSS jobs |
| 15:11.10 | Hanuman | (knowing Novell, I don't know if I'd trust staying with the company for long, though |
| 15:11.14 | Hanuman | ) |
| 15:11.53 | Hanuman | My last ward was just barely East of Novell, and we were packed with employed and unemployed Novell employees |
| 15:13.53 | Hanuman | Jayce^: wonder what Alan Eaton thinks of that... |
| 15:13.56 | Jayce^ | from /. second comment modded up: |
| 15:13.57 | Jayce^ | I ran "Red Carpet Update" this morning. Now I know why it downloaded a copy of the Book of Mormon to my computer. Thanks, Slashdot! |
| 15:14.07 | Hanuman | lol |
| 15:14.19 | Jayce^ | Hanuman, one of his usual quotes "linux is just a fad, and microsoft is going to squash it" |
| 15:15.03 | Hanuman | hehe...I imagine that's why they had to put instructions in their last newsletter on how to "try" to get the Genealogy Browser to work in Linux |
| 15:16.31 | elg | ~slashdot |
| 15:16.57 | Jayce^ | lol, one guys comments on novell's UI (which eaton helped write) the UI for NetWare was the worst case in the whole industry. Desktop or no desktop, but the OS must have UI. Cisco router has a better UI! It's also not a GUI, but at least it's something understandable |
| 15:18.57 | Hanuman | Jayce^: if you ask Eaton, he will say he was the main developer of that UI - wonder if he reads /. |
| 15:18.59 | Jayce^ | Hanuman, they did? heh, didn't bother looking at it, filtered it away |
| 15:19.21 | Jayce^ | funny thing is, it doesn't work on a lot of XP systems now either.. |
| 15:19.22 | Hanuman | That was the last one I received before I set up spamassassin and they started being marked as spam |
| 15:19.50 | Hanuman | I don't think I've ever had the GB work without some bug happening |
| 15:21.26 | Hanuman | cool - this is the longest I've had a pending article w/ /. before it got rejected. So far, so good... |
| 15:37.31 | Jayce^ | so, everybody coming wednesday? |
| 15:37.51 | levi | Nope! |
| 15:38.48 | Jayce^ | dang, wanted you to bring those sun panels you have |
| 15:38.53 | Hanuman | Would if I could...I love a good swap-meet |
| 17:21.20 | *** join/#utah ibot (ibot@208.186.182.172) |
| 17:21.21 | *** mode/#utah [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 17:32.51 | Jayce^ | that test that /. linked to before, and robert posted to plug has some rather interesting results.. |
| 17:34.48 | Hanuman | I'd like to see RedHat in there as well |
| 18:02.12 | jtate | Red Hat pledges $1M to fight SCO and help OS related lawsuits: http://www.businesswire.com/cgi-bin/f_headline.cgi?bw.080403/232165483&ticker=RHAT |
| 18:04.40 | Hanuman | good 'ol RedHat, now if their stock could just start going up again I'll be a happy man. |
| 18:08.29 | Hanuman | All this talk of Novell and Ximian is making me miss my old home on the mountainside just east of Novell |
| 18:09.40 | Hanuman | How stable is Novell these days? |
| 18:16.44 | Jayce^ | not |
| 18:17.03 | jtate | Jayce^: How so? |
| 18:17.18 | Jayce^ | they just had a really big series of layoffs last month |
| 18:17.48 | jtate | I've got friends that work for Ximian. I hope they don't get pink slipped. |
| 18:21.16 | Hanuman | yeah - I'd love to work for Novell, but all I hear from them is how people get laid off and then re-hired 6 months later |
| 18:21.35 | Hanuman | So goes the story in my old ward at least |
| 18:22.46 | brailsmt_ | novell hires people then the ywork them and give em raises, etc... until they become too expensive, then they lay you off and hire cheaper people to do the same thing... |
| 18:23.24 | *** join/#utah HarleyPig (~ayoung@209.180.91.155) |
| 18:26.35 | Jayce^ | ooohh.. o'reilly is coming out with a perl debugger pocket reference.. |
| 18:28.34 | Hanuman | brailsmt_: how much is too expensive? I can work for cheap as long as it's more than I am currently being paid. |
| 18:28.56 | Hanuman | Jayce^: that will be very useful |
| 18:29.34 | brailsmt_ | Hanuman: beats me, that is just what I have heard re: working at novell, i guess too expensive is when they can hire and train someone for less than it would cost to kepp paying you... |
| 18:30.25 | Hanuman | I hope they offer a paycut before just laying you off. |
| 18:30.46 | Hanuman | I hate companies that don't even negotiate with their employees before layoffs |
| 18:31.02 | Hanuman | Most employees would rather keep their jobs and take the paycut, especially in a tough economy |
| 18:31.09 | *** join/#utah emcnabb_ (~emcnabb@byu176783wks.rn.byu.edu) |
| 18:31.59 | tensai | Hanuman: don't hold your breath expecting any empathy from Novell HR |
| 18:32.39 | Hanuman | That's what I hear |
| 18:32.46 | tensai | that's what I experienced |
| 18:33.03 | tensai | you couldn't pay me enough to go back there |
| 18:33.41 | elg | ~lart HR |
| 18:35.23 | Hanuman | I've grown to not like HR, until I'm now in a company w/o an HR person |
| 18:35.46 | Hanuman | Now I wish we had someone continually trying to find employee benefits, etc |
| 18:36.09 | Hanuman | It's tough to know how to act also when there is now Employee handbook, although that has it's advantages, too |
| 18:36.16 | Hanuman | s/now/no/ |
| 18:36.40 | brailsmt_ | hr people blow |
| 18:36.50 | elg | bzlunch anyone? |
| 18:37.10 | brailsmt_ | how do they know if someone knows the technology or not for the position they are interviewing for... |
| 18:37.54 | brailsmt_ | cya |
| 18:39.48 | Jayce^ | hrmm, there's a mod for ya, have bzflag pipe the kill statements to your favorite irc channel :) |
| 18:41.55 | Hanuman | uh oh (me can just see the bzSpam coming to this channel) |
| 18:42.15 | Hanuman | even better - do elg's cow thing w/ the kill statements |
| 18:42.58 | Hanuman | brailsmt_: I hate applying for jobs through the hr department - I agree w/ you on that one |
| 18:44.11 | elg | it's so much more fun to play people you know |
| 18:46.10 | Hanuman | I'd just have to make sure they knew it was my lunch time |
| 18:47.18 | Hanuman | Then I'd have to set up dual-boot Linux (w/o my employer knowing - for some reason they think it will hurt the company for me to do that) |
| 18:47.37 | elg | isn't there a windows version? |
| 18:47.53 | Hanuman | not sure - I guess I could find out... |
| 18:47.59 | elg | i believe so |
| 18:49.03 | Hanuman | yup - just found it. I'll have to try it out now |
| 18:49.10 | Hanuman | Mac OS X, too |
| 18:49.41 | Hanuman | hey - the graphics aren't too shabby in this, either |
| 18:54.02 | jtate | For those of you that like some pretty good competition without lots of noise, the TriLUG group runs it's own server. |
| 18:54.16 | jtate | It's on the east coast though, so ping times might be long. |
| 18:55.46 | jtate | bzflag.trilug.org ports 5155 for free-for-all and 7000 for CTF. Poke in to #trilug and shout BZ! and you'll get several people in. |
| 19:13.55 | Hanuman | jtate: not for me - any idea where on the East coast??? |
| 19:17.31 | jtate | Hanuman: RTP, NC |
| 19:20.26 | Hanuman | Cool |
| 19:25.20 | jtate | Hanuman: Pop into #trilug at about 9:00, and type bzstats and the bot will tell you who's playing. |
| 19:25.34 | jtate | or /msg tribot bzstats |
| 19:36.10 | Hanuman | cool - tnx |
| 19:42.57 | elg | heh. sounds like we need one of those for us utahns. if we announce it on the lists we might get some activity. |
| 19:43.02 | elg | ibot, can you learn bzflag? |
| 19:43.03 | | elg: I wish you would RTFM. |
| 19:43.14 | elg | lol |
| 19:43.25 | Jayce^ | ouch |
| 19:43.27 | jtate | Some cross country rivalry might be fun too. |
| 19:44.28 | Jayce^ | oh yeah.. |
| 19:44.31 | Jayce^ | lug vs lug |
| 19:45.08 | jtate | They run a capture the flag server, so that might be really fun |
| 19:50.13 | *** part/#utah HarleyPig (~ayoung@209.180.91.155) |
| 19:53.43 | elg | wow, there's a lot of people at trilug |
| 19:54.27 | jtate | The largest group at www.biglumber.com |
| 19:54.53 | jtate | One of the largest LUGs besides Silicon Valley and perhaps Philly |
| 19:55.37 | jtate | TriLUG has several RH employees that keep on IRC regularly |
| 19:56.56 | Jayce^ | heh.. no listings from ut on that site :) |
| 19:57.44 | jtate | I'll be in Utah in October. Perhaps we can arrange a key signing event. |
| 19:58.02 | Jayce^ | yeah |
| 19:58.12 | Jayce^ | plan on the 2nd wednesday |
| 19:58.35 | jtate | Let me be more specific, I'll be there over the weekend of the 11th. |
| 19:58.53 | Bradipo | Hmm, who do I need to talk to about spam coming from BYU? |
| 20:01.31 | jtate | whois -h whois.abuse.net byu.edu |
| 20:15.03 | *** join/#utah brailsmt_ (~michael@12-254-250-249.client.attbi.com) |
| 20:19.35 | *** join/#utah tewkxchat (~tewk@12.174.36.204) |
| 20:30.00 | Hanuman | cool - my ask /. story was accepted - we'll see if it makes the main page or not |
| 20:34.24 | neybar | I have an opinion question here... I am bored so I thought I would pick/improve my C skills (haven't touched C since CS240 three years ago. Would you recommend learning ansi C first then C++ or is C++ more valuable right now? |
| 20:35.25 | Hanuman | I'd go ANSI C++ - get the deitel & deitel book |
| 20:35.49 | neybar | I have that one actually |
| 20:36.13 | Hanuman | Some people don't like those books, but I've found them very thorough |
| 20:38.38 | *** join/#utah synic (~synic@12-209-161-241.client.attbi.com) |
| 20:41.58 | Hanuman | Wonder if my home machine can handle slashdot if it's just linked from my nick |
| 20:42.36 | Hanuman | I ought to create a static version somewhere jic |
| 20:45.57 | Jayce^ | if it's just a link from the nic, you probably won't get much traffic |
| 20:47.00 | Hanuman | I thought I'd get that out of one or two people |
| 20:47.15 | elg | neybar: depends on what you want to do |
| 20:47.17 | Hanuman | elg: did you see the new specification for XML Forms? |
| 20:47.24 | elg | no, what's new about it? |
| 20:47.51 | neybar | elg: mostly I am just interested in learning it. |
| 20:48.27 | Hanuman | elg: http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/08/01/1922220 |
| 20:51.39 | Hanuman | I just remember us talking about XForms at one point |
| 20:51.49 | Hanuman | (or something equivalent) |
| 20:52.38 | elg | neybar: i mean eventually. C is great if you'll be doing any lower level stuff, but for most user applications c++ is generally better |
| 20:52.49 | elg | Hanuman: yeah, we did. |
| 20:53.15 | elg | i thought you meant a new spec for xforms vs. xforms achieving a new status as official in some way at the w3c |
| 20:53.48 | Hanuman | elg: what's your favorite C++ book? |
| 20:55.02 | Hanuman | Here I am...http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/08/04/2012226&mode=thread&tid=187 |
| 20:55.15 | Hanuman | let me make that a bit easier: |
| 20:55.16 | Hanuman | http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/08/04/2012226&mode=thread&tid=187 |
| 20:56.00 | elg | but at least one good comment on xforms: http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=73267&cid=6593066 |
| 20:56.06 | Jayce^ | first comment already assumes you are from india :) |
| 20:56.44 | Hanuman | cool...my purpose is served... ;-) |
| 20:57.13 | Hanuman | I should have changed my nick to Hanuman - that would have really gotten them curious |
| 20:57.18 | Jayce^ | heh.. a php guy talking about how nice it is to separate the logic and presentation layers.. how ironic |
| 20:58.43 | synic | what's ironic about that? |
| 20:59.10 | Hanuman | cool - another mention of Zen |
| 20:59.33 | Jayce^ | php(asp,mason, etc) heavily encourages presentation/logic models to be combined in the same file... as compared to other forms of templating |
| 20:59.59 | synic | yeah, but most people who have been doing it a while ignore that ability. |
| 21:00.21 | Jayce^ | not most code I've seen... |
| 21:00.36 | jtate | Jayce^: That's why some of the PHP guys came up with smarty |
| 21:00.38 | Jayce^ | I really push for complete separation of presentation/data/logic elements. |
| 21:01.12 | synic | I agree. PHP should not have the ability to be embedded in the first place |
| 21:01.29 | synic | but... doesn't mean you _have_ to embed it |
| 21:02.42 | synic | I just wrote a simple one that has the standard {firstName} {lastName} kind of tags |
| 21:05.24 | jtate | Jayce^: What do you use on your site? |
| 21:06.43 | elg | jtate: Jayce^ uses the one true camel |
| 21:07.49 | Jayce^ | mod_perl baby.. |
| 21:08.01 | Jayce^ | halls.infogenix.com |
| 21:08.11 | synic | doesn't mod_perl encourage embedding too? |
| 21:08.14 | Jayce^ | actually, it has almost no content except for the photo gallery.. |
| 21:08.47 | Jayce^ | synic, no, mod_perl doesn't do any of that.. you use your favorite templating system within mod_perl.. some do, some don't |
| 21:08.59 | synic | ah. |
| 21:09.03 | Jayce^ | mason, embperl and such do encourage it, and I don't care for them.. |
| 21:09.13 | elg | i wish there was a way to detach an x session |
| 21:09.15 | Jayce^ | remember, this is perl... there's more than one way :) |
| 21:09.21 | Jayce^ | elg, no joke.. |
| 21:09.26 | Jayce^ | screenx :) |
| 21:09.33 | synic | :) this is programming - there's always more than one way |
| 21:09.35 | Jayce^ | ouch, that link just posted to plug :) |
| 21:10.16 | Jayce^ | synic, but comparing php's templating style, with the plethora of toolkits out for perl/mod_perl is a bit of a contrast.. |
| 21:11.53 | synic | Jayce^: I never did work with perl long, but when I did, I couldn't figure out the function parameter passing stuff... |
| 21:12.30 | Jayce^ | synic, you mean &foo($bar, $baz); type stuff? |
| 21:12.31 | Hanuman | $variable = shift - that's all you need to know (and that's only one way to do it) |
| 21:12.33 | synic | like how I could pass a string and a hash to the same function |
| 21:12.41 | Jayce^ | yeah.. and? :) |
| 21:12.50 | synic | care to enlighten me? |
| 21:12.55 | synic | it's kinda been bugging me :) |
| 21:13.04 | Jayce^ | well, it's 'casting' basically |
| 21:13.18 | Jayce^ | when you say my $foo = shift; let's say.. |
| 21:13.41 | Jayce^ | when it goes to make the assignment, it sees that the left side is a scalar, so it shifts the first scalar off the stack.. |
| 21:14.06 | Jayce^ | if you are passing a scalar, that's what it get's, if it's an array it is flattened, and you grab the first element.. |
| 21:14.18 | Jayce^ | passing a reference, well a ref is just a scalar... |
| 21:14.29 | synic | never used "shift" |
| 21:14.33 | Jayce^ | then you deref it to access the elements.. |
| 21:14.34 | synic | what's it do? |
| 21:14.47 | Jayce^ | shift takes the first element off an arrray |
| 21:15.06 | Jayce^ | without a parameter, it uses @_ (default array, what is passed into a sub) |
| 21:15.20 | synic | do you have a small example by chance? Say, passing an array as the first parameter and a hash as the second |
| 21:15.53 | Jayce^ | so the long way would be saying my $foo = $_[0]; # but it's also removing it, so you'd have the extra step |
| 21:16.04 | Jayce^ | passing an array and a hash, you would need to pass them by reference.. |
| 21:16.17 | Jayce^ | &foo(\@array, \%hash); |
| 21:16.21 | synic | ok |
| 21:16.32 | synic | cool |
| 21:16.42 | Jayce^ | because if you didn't pass by reference (which is the memory address in a scalar) they would be flattened.. |
| 21:17.14 | Jayce^ | and slurping it into an array my @array = @_; would grab the array *and* the hash .... because it's flattened.. |
| 21:17.19 | jtate | Jayce^: I never liked that you had to restart Apache to test any changes in your perl script. Or is there a way to get around that now. |
| 21:17.26 | jtate | ? |
| 21:17.46 | synic | jtate: I never had to restart apache when using perl? |
| 21:17.51 | synic | I never used mod_perl, though |
| 21:17.51 | Jayce^ | but this way, you can do a) my ($array_ref, $hash_ref) = @_; or my $aref = shift; my $href = shift; |
| 21:18.00 | Jayce^ | jtate, yeah, has been a few for a long time... |
| 21:18.10 | Hanuman | &foo([$var1,$var2,$var3],{foo => 'bar', bar => 'foo}); |
| 21:18.16 | Hanuman | that's another way of doing it |
| 21:18.17 | Jayce^ | in the beginning was apache::StatINC.. it was ok... but Apache::Reload is great.. |
| 21:18.49 | Jayce^ | Hanuman, you are basically doing the flattening/refrencing by hand that way.. so it's just more descriptive.. |
| 21:19.23 | Hanuman | yeah - I prefer to use scalars whenever possible, so another way to say the above would be: |
| 21:19.26 | Jayce^ | using apache::reload I can tell apache to just reload a certain package I'm working on, or all , or just do it when I touch a certain file.. |
| 21:19.34 | Hanuman | $foo = [1,2,3,4]; |
| 21:19.49 | Hanuman | $bar = {foo => 'bar',bar => 'foo}; |
| 21:19.55 | Jayce^ | one of the nicest things about mod_perl is it's so much more than other mods, it lets you access the full apache api.. |
| 21:20.03 | Hanuman | &function($foo,$bar); |
| 21:20.14 | Jayce^ | actually, you can embed into more handlers than even mod_c |
| 21:20.18 | jtate | Jayce^: Ahh. I haven't done mod_perl stuff since 2000. |
| 21:20.45 | Jayce^ | mod_php and several others are just content handlers.. |
| 21:20.55 | Hanuman | in regards to shift, you can use multiple shifts one after the other to pull values that are passed to the function |
| 21:21.12 | Hanuman | each shift pulls out the next value |
| 21:21.49 | synic | ok, cool |
| 21:22.51 | Jayce^ | passing by ref is a good idea... just like passing pointers in C |
| 21:23.16 | synic | I think that was my problem. The guy I was learning from never used refs, and so neither did I. |
| 21:23.59 | Jayce^ | yeah, who you learn from always makes a difference.. |
| 21:24.24 | Jayce^ | I don't know how many people learned their hatred of perl because all they've seen is Matt's Script Archive code (or code learned from that) |
| 21:24.29 | synic | He was very stubborn. Would program in notepad on Windows NT... |
| 21:24.52 | Jayce^ | see, you shoulda seen the problems up front :) |
| 21:24.52 | *** join/#utah brailsmt_work (michael@byu081003wks.byu.edu) |
| 21:24.55 | synic | He wasn't really into learning new things... and it worked for him I guess. |
| 21:25.08 | synic | lol, hey - I was a n00b! |
| 21:25.08 | Jayce^ | I hate people like that... unwilling to learn.. |
| 21:25.37 | Jayce^ | my coding still reflects that.. |
| 21:25.37 | synic | oh well, it's his loss :) |
| 21:26.00 | synic | how long ago was that? |
| 21:26.08 | Hanuman | Alot of the CPAN modules are programmed sloppily, too - that gives perl a bad image at times |
| 21:26.08 | neybar | yeah, for example I learned perl from Jayce... I'm still confused. :-D |
| 21:26.35 | Jayce^ | you just let your java background come through too much :) |
| 21:26.40 | Jayce^ | synic, 98 :) |
| 21:27.22 | synic | 'bout when I started programming. |
| 21:27.31 | Jayce^ | I have to say, I'm not impressed with some of the people I've taught perl too, but some have done well.. |
| 21:27.47 | synic | I switched to PHP about 6 months after that... |
| 21:27.51 | Jayce^ | I was working in Delphi when I finally started really learning perl.. |
| 21:28.08 | synic | I've never even seen Delphi |
| 21:28.33 | Jayce^ | I checked out python, then php.. didn't enjoy the feel of either, so stopped working in them... only look at them when I *have* to now.. |
| 21:28.39 | Hanuman | that and the Infogenix crew |
| 21:28.57 | Jayce^ | yup, back before we had a chance to really learn mod_perl and it's better points.. |
| 21:29.05 | synic | I learned from someone for about 6 months. Then he quit, so the rest I've learned on IRC. |
| 21:29.30 | Hanuman | yes - we had much to gain that we didn't know about |
| 21:29.36 | Jayce^ | and a *lot* of trial and error.. |
| 21:29.46 | Hanuman | I got the last job from learning from Damian and folks |
| 21:29.58 | Hanuman | The last job just allowed me to apply it |
| 21:30.01 | synic | I haven't since worked with a programmer I could learn from. |
| 21:30.08 | Jayce^ | Hanuman, yeah, but the companies were enforcing that... they *really* didn't like people making things work better, it was all about doing the minimum.. |
| 21:30.24 | Hanuman | see my /. post... |
| 21:31.13 | Hanuman | I definitely agree |
| 21:31.29 | synic | alright, gotta go. The battery is gonna run out here pretty quick. |
| 21:31.38 | synic | I'll talk to you folks later. |
| 21:31.44 | Jayce^ | most people who know we know about my book habit.. I really read a lot.. |
| 21:31.52 | Hanuman | maybe I'll talk again this evening |
| 21:32.18 | Hanuman | especially technical ones... |
| 22:05.08 | brailsmt_work | come to the light |
| 22:05.10 | brailsmt_work | use ruby |
| 22:05.58 | Jayce^ | let's see, ruby is the river, php is the mists of darkness, and Python is the great and spacious building (full of jeering people) |
| 22:06.17 | brailsmt_work | is plug or uug the ML that I saw this "A computer without Windows is like a chocolate cake without mustard" |
| 22:06.34 | brailsmt_work | ;) |
| 22:06.39 | Jayce^ | heh... not sure.. |
| 22:06.57 | brailsmt_work | ruby river has good food |
| 22:06.58 | brailsmt_work | ;) |
| 22:07.04 | Jayce^ | lol |
| 22:07.33 | brailsmt_work | ruby still has the second most questionable vim ex command... |
| 22:07.44 | Jayce^ | ? |
| 22:07.49 | brailsmt_work | :ruby |
| 22:07.54 | brailsmt_work | or :rub for short |
| 22:07.55 | brailsmt_work | :) |
| 22:08.12 | brailsmt_work | the most questionable being :Sexplore |
| 22:09.32 | brailsmt_work | you can have :fun with vim's ex commands |
| 22:09.42 | brailsmt_work | they can be a :blast |
| 22:09.59 | brailsmt_work | brr... it's :cold in here |
| 22:10.10 | brailsmt_work | i just can't :cope |
| 22:10.20 | Jayce^ | d'oh |
| 22:10.29 | brailsmt_work | i just can't :cope with :perl |
| 22:10.31 | brailsmt_work | ;) |
| 22:10.35 | brailsmt_work | or :python |
| 22:11.08 | Jayce^ | ok brailsmt* if you had to use one or the other, which would you use (no alternatives) |
| 22:11.45 | brailsmt_work | what are my choices? |
| 22:11.49 | brailsmt_work | perl or python |
| 22:11.51 | Jayce^ | perl or python |
| 22:11.53 | brailsmt_work | perl |
| 22:11.59 | Jayce^ | whew.. |
| 22:12.40 | brailsmt_work | it was python until I actually had to see python code, it just rubbed me the wrong way (no vim ex command pun intended) |
| 22:13.17 | brailsmt_work | and i have used perl before |
| 22:13.25 | brailsmt_work | perl at least doesn't pretend to be soemthing it isn't |
| 22:14.35 | brailsmt_work | and whitespace isn't significant |
| 22:16.26 | brailsmt_work | and i will trade list/scalar contexts for whitespace significance |
| 22:17.42 | levi | I don't understand the deep loathing some people have for whitespace significance. |
| 22:19.38 | Jayce^ | maybe i like a different tabspace than brailsmt* |
| 22:19.46 | Jayce^ | that kills a python script |
| 22:19.51 | brailsmt_work | i just don't like a program to work because someone did "sed 's/<tab>/ /'" on my programs, I mean how easy is it to miss a semicolon, much less something that can't even see.. |
| 22:20.08 | Jayce^ | more, I hate how it is promoted by those who use it as the "only" true way... |
| 22:20.28 | Jayce^ | I agree it is an alternative that some may prefer, but not that any one way *must* be true.. |
| 22:21.11 | levi | Jayce^: Sure, that's annoying, but irrelevant from a technical viewpoint. |
| 22:21.52 | levi | The promotion of it by zealots, not the tabspace thing. |
| 22:22.23 | Jayce^ | yeah, that's not a technical standpoint.. that's a preference.. |
| 22:22.46 | levi | Anything you look at in the open software world, and probably the wider world of all software, will have some group of zealots promoting it in a distasteful way. |
| 22:23.06 | brailsmt_work | i just hate significant whitespace because I woke up on the wrong side of the bed one day and decided "I am going to hate significant whitespace" |
| 22:23.50 | brailsmt_work | not all significant whitespace is bad, but using it to define code blocks is what I detest |
| 22:24.07 | levi | brailsmt: Well, hopefully someday you'll grow out of the irrational hatred that causes so much bile to well up in you when you think of Python. It can't be healthy. ;) |
| 22:24.28 | brailsmt_work | it is healthy, righteous bile, mind you ;) |
| 22:24.54 | levi | I.e., you are a zealot. |
| 22:25.04 | brailsmt_work | i mean in C/ |
| 22:25.10 | brailsmt_work | C++ |
| 22:25.12 | Jayce^ | just like the difference between good/bad cholesteral.... :) |
| 22:25.33 | brailsmt_work | nm |
| 22:25.33 | levi | Jayce^: In that case, there is more than opinion dividing the two. :) |
| 22:26.38 | brailsmt_work | anyway, afaik you cannot get rid of all whitespace in C/C++ |
| 22:27.05 | brailsmt_work | nor perl, nor ruby, nor <insert language of choice (most of them anyway)> |
| 22:28.06 | Jayce^ | perl can actually be the language *most* dependant on whitespace.... |
| 22:28.12 | Jayce^ | check out Acme::Bleach sometime :D |
| 22:28.21 | brailsmt_work | it is just the python's dependence on it to define code blocks seems to be a bad idea |
| 22:28.50 | Jayce^ | well, it goes along with their hatred of perl sigils, which personally, I love.. |
| 22:29.06 | levi | In the programming I did with Python, I did not have any trouble with things breaking due to whitespace code blocks. Sure, it could theoretically happen, which would probably be annoying, but I don't have a problem with it. |
| 22:29.07 | brailsmt_work | some purport it to be a way to adhere to DRY principle, but I see whitespace as something which should be made as cosmetic as possible |
| 22:29.59 | brailsmt_work | and cosmetics should not be enforced to the degree that your code will break if the cosmetics are not as prescribed... |
| 22:30.26 | brailsmt_work | this is different than writing good code vs. bad code |
| 22:30.33 | brailsmt_work | or eradable v. unreadable |
| 22:30.44 | brailsmt_work | or tpyos v. typso |
| 22:30.47 | brailsmt_work | ;) |
| 22:31.49 | levi | So, you have a philisophical difference with the significance of whitespace. It's not that big of a deal, really. |
| 22:32.56 | hans | levi, the voice of reason, spoils another good flame |
| 22:32.59 | levi | If you programmed in Python and for whatever reason the amount of style it inforces with its whitespace rules makes you feel uncomfortable, then I understand that as a reason to not program in it. |
| 22:33.14 | brailsmt_work | yeah, I guess you could say that I don't like python's use of whitespace... (isn't this where we started?) :) |
| 22:33.58 | levi | Okay, there's a difference between disagreeing with the notion of whitespace-delimited code blocks and actually finding them restrictive or annoying in practice. |
| 22:34.47 | brailsmt_work | i do both |
| 22:34.48 | Jayce^ | correct.. |
| 22:34.49 | brailsmt_work | ;) |
| 22:35.05 | levi | I mean, I have some points like that that I disagree with in just about every programming language. Obviously I'm not being queried for my personal preferences by language designers, so I can't expect them all to fit my ideas of a good language perfectly. |
| 22:35.18 | brailsmt_work | whitespace, imo, should be cosmetic as much as possible |
| 22:36.05 | brailsmt_work | but that isn't the only reason I do not like python |
| 22:36.11 | brailsmt_work | just one of them |
| 22:36.30 | levi | brailsmt: Anyway, my point is this. I don't care if you disagree with a certain point. Not one bit. If you find that bit actually annoying in practice, then good for you in not using it anymore. But that one point is not particularly significant, in the grand scheme of things, so it gets old hearing it mentioned all the time. |
| 22:36.33 | brailsmt_work | the other is the abuse of __<identifier>__ construct |
| 22:37.48 | *** join/#utah emcnabb_ (~emcnabb@12-255-28-7.client.attbi.com) |
| 22:40.05 | Jayce^ | just a question, who here actually dislikes the use of sigils? |
| 22:40.15 | Jayce^ | and to what degree/usage |
| 22:40.21 | Jayce^ | since we're on the language nuances.. |
| 22:42.31 | levi | I don't like them all that much, but it's not a deal-breaker sort of dislike. |
| 22:43.25 | Jayce^ | personally I really like the at-a-glance ability to see my data-type.. |
| 22:43.41 | levi | They're all sort of the general syntactic 'busy' look and feel that perl has. On one hand, they offer a visual cue to what the variable is; on the other, it's another thing you have to learn with little quirks to remember before reading perl makes sense. |
| 22:44.37 | Jayce^ | yup |
| 22:45.42 | Jayce^ | so, if any java/j2ee guys are looking for work, the church family history dept is hiring quite a few people.. |
| 22:46.00 | levi | My primary dislike of perl is because I haven't bothered to become familiar enough with it to the point where all the little quirks make sense when I'm reading someone else's perl script. I'm sure they're less of an issue when you know the language well. |
| 22:50.54 | brailsmt_work | what is a sigil? |
| 22:51.07 | Jayce^ | $scalar, @array, %hash :) |
| 22:51.16 | Jayce^ | using the chars to denote stuff |
| 22:51.18 | Jayce^ | special meaning |
| 22:51.34 | brailsmt_work | well, I really like ruby's lexical scoping which looks like that but is different |
| 22:51.39 | brailsmt_work | the look of it doesn't bother me |
| 22:52.30 | Jayce^ | perl does lexical scoping, but uses my/local for that... |
| 22:52.41 | brailsmt_work | $var -- global, $Var -- global constant, @var -- instance var, @@var -- class var, etc... |
| 22:52.42 | Jayce^ | but yeah, ruby uses sigils too, just with different meaning.. |
| 22:53.05 | brailsmt_work | but that tells you nothing of the type of those vars |
| 22:53.23 | brailsmt_work | well, unless you consider scope as part of the type |
| 22:53.25 | Jayce^ | but it does carry significance.. |
| 22:53.29 | brailsmt_work | and constness |
| 22:53.32 | brailsmt_work | right |
| 22:53.34 | Jayce^ | that's what I'm getting at |
| 22:53.36 | brailsmt_work | that doesn't bother me |
| 22:54.12 | Jayce^ | perl uses my and local, and scopes it like c |
| 22:54.33 | brailsmt_work | what does bother me is the different behavior of functions based on context... |
| 22:54.45 | Jayce^ | list vs scalar? |
| 22:54.49 | brailsmt_work | yeah |
| 22:55.00 | Jayce^ | really? just overloading.. |
| 22:55.16 | brailsmt_work | but it does bother me less than python's whitespace, because it is similar to overloading |
| 22:55.52 | Jayce^ | perl.com has an article exactly about that on the main page right now, if I remember right.. |
| 22:56.52 | tensai | lart Outlook |
| 22:56.52 | brailsmt_work | it just seems awkward to me assigning an array to a scalar returns the length of the array... |
| 22:56.57 | tensai | ~lart Outlook |
| 22:57.12 | Jayce^ | tensai, having fun with outlook? |
| 22:57.23 | brailsmt_work | ibot: has lame lart messages |
| 22:57.24 | | i haven't a clue, brailsmt_work |
| 22:57.31 | tensai | if by "fun" you mean "I'd like to strangle it", then yes |
| 22:57.40 | brailsmt_work | stupid irssi nick completion and my habit of hitting tab... |
| 22:57.40 | Jayce^ | brailsmt_work, you would prefer flattening? or what? |
| 22:57.58 | brailsmt_work | array.length, or array.size is what I prefer |
| 22:58.09 | brailsmt_work | easier to see what is going on in the source |
| 22:58.31 | brailsmt_work | and array.flatten for flattening :) |
| 22:59.08 | brailsmt_work | i just find ruby to be much more enjoyable than either perl or python |
| 22:59.13 | brailsmt_work | it is very open |
| 22:59.28 | brailsmt_work | more so than perl, at least with my limited understanding of perl... |
| 22:59.54 | brailsmt_work | matz really likes parrot |
| 23:00.02 | brailsmt_work | matz really likes larry |
| 23:00.03 | Jayce^ | brailsmt_work, that's an important point... as far as anyones understanding of any language.. everything is always slanted :) |
| 23:00.26 | Jayce^ | that's good to hear.. then you and I can work on a project, and each use our favorite language.. |
| 23:00.54 | Jayce^ | yeah... I liked seeing those.. |
| 23:01.08 | brailsmt_work | the ruby community spurns their use though :) |
| 23:01.24 | Jayce^ | goes with the natural language style... pronouns, etc.. |
| 23:02.56 | brailsmt_work | at oscon matz, larry and guido sat down for dinner together (at the behest of MS), guido asked matz if he preferred python or perl, matz replied that larry was his hero... |
| 23:03.01 | brailsmt_work | that pissed off guido ;) |
| 23:03.10 | brailsmt_work | this is all as reported on guido's blog |
| 23:03.27 | Jayce^ | lol! |
| 23:03.34 | brailsmt_work | yeah, i thought it was funny |
| 23:03.37 | Jayce^ | man I wish I hadn't had to miss oscon this year.. |
| 23:04.09 | brailsmt_work | i don't care for him after reading just one of his blogs |
| 23:04.15 | Jayce^ | link? |
| 23:04.29 | brailsmt_work | i threw it away as quickly as I could ;) |
| 23:04.30 | Jayce^ | he's the kind of person that the ego seemed to emmanate from him.. |
| 23:04.42 | Jayce^ | </opinion> |
| 23:04.49 | brailsmt_work | he is widely reported to have ego the size of eurasia |
| 23:04.56 | Jayce^ | yeah |
| 23:05.21 | brailsmt_work | matz is rather unassuming, as is the language he wrote |
| 23:11.36 | levi | brailsmt: I just read a couple of his blog entries. He doesn't seem to be any more sure of his opinions than some people I know here... ;) |
| 23:16.21 | brailsmt_work | levi: i said "widely reported" i do not know the guy, nor his opinions |
| 23:17.55 | levi | You said you didn't like him after reading his blog entries. |
| 23:18.24 | levi | He is vocal about his opinions, certainly. |
| 23:18.50 | levi | Jayce^: http://www.artima.com/weblogs/index.jsp?blogger=guido |
| 23:19.01 | Jayce^ | from guido : Ruby is cute, but too Perlish for my taste. |
| 23:19.19 | Jayce^ | yeah, googled it |
| 23:19.40 | brailsmt_work | levi: i am no more sure in my opinions then you are in your quest to point out my advocacy |
| 23:20.12 | Jayce^ | Later that night I got to ask Ruby's creator, Mats, whether Ruby was more like Python or more like Perl, while Larry Wall was standing next to us. Mats responded that it was more like Perl, adding that Larry was his hero. Yet from what I've grasped so far by skimming the tutorial, much of Ruby, especially its runtime, is much closer to Python's (with the exception of Ruby's mutable strings, which I find an abomination). |
| 23:21.06 | brailsmt_work | as if guido knows more about ruby's internals than matz |
| 23:55.44 | Bradipo | Hmm. |
| 23:55.49 | Bradipo | Did I quit? |
| 23:58.57 | brailsmt_work | quit what? |
| 23:59.02 | brailsmt_work | :) |
| 23:59.21 | Mecworks | quit SCO? 8^) |
| 23:59.46 | Mecworks | Bradipo: I think you'd know if you did that... |