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| 03:14.55 | Hanuman_ | any clue what the setting is in sendmail.mc that I need to add to get pop3 working? |
| 03:15.37 | Hanuman | does sendmail do POP3? Or do I need a pop daemon? |
| 03:17.09 | brailsmt | Hanuman: you mean you want to get your mail from a pop3 server using sendmail? or you want to allow access to your mail accounts with sendmail? |
| 03:18.44 | Hanuman | I figured it out. This is my first time setting up a mail server on Linux. |
| 03:19.00 | Hanuman | I thought Sendmail included a pop3 daemon |
| 03:19.31 | Hanuman | I had to enable ipop3d from xinetd.d on Redhat |
| 03:20.03 | Hanuman | now to get that working... |
| 03:20.40 | Hanuman | qmail is appearing much more appealing right now. If I understand correctly, it can do SMTP, POP3, and IMAP, correct? |
| 03:21.56 | brailsmt | beats me, i just use qmail... ;) |
| 03:22.13 | brailsmt | and for remote access of my mail account, I ssh into my machine and run mutt |
| 03:22.15 | brailsmt | :) |
| 03:22.56 | Hanuman | yeah - I'll probably set that up eventually (tinkered with mutt, but most experience has been with pine) |
| 03:23.28 | Hanuman | I'm trying to duplicate what I'd like to do at work to replace Exchange, but baby-steps |
| 03:23.32 | brailsmt | mutt is like really easy... |
| 03:23.39 | brailsmt | iirc |
| 03:24.48 | brailsmt | which i probably don't |
| 03:25.55 | Hanuman | sweet - just got pop3 working |
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| 03:45.57 | Hanuman_ | Anyone know of a good relaying howto for sendmail? I'm getting relay denied messages - I need to know how to allow mail sent to *@hainesfamily.org coming through my nameservers |
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| 05:11.12 | levi_ | Greetings, folks. |
| 13:24.28 | Hanuman | Good morning... |
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| 14:30.28 | elg | http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20030724.html |
| 14:30.32 | elg | interesting idea |
| 14:34.06 | Hanuman | read that on /. - yes, interesting. |
| 14:34.40 | Hanuman | elg: I finally got my mail server working. haven't tested it w/ procmail yet, though |
| 14:34.53 | Hanuman | I had to learn a bit how an MTA works to get it all working, though. |
| 14:35.12 | Hanuman | I think I'll use qmail next time instead of piecing together pieces with Sendmail |
| 14:43.11 | elg | Hanuman: then you'll be piecing together pieces with qmail. difference is, qmail is fairly well-documented |
| 14:43.43 | elg | it's opposite of sendmail in that it's completely modularized and not monolithic, but it shares the old sendmail quality of being a pain to configure correctly. |
| 14:43.50 | elg | ironically, because of its modularity. |
| 14:45.46 | Hanuman | yes, but if I want pop3 or imap with qmail, I use qmail's pop3 or qmail's IMAP daemons, and I don't have to look around to find something that works |
| 14:46.20 | Hanuman | That's what was most frustrating w/ Sendmail - I had to look all around to figure out what pop3 daemon redhat supported, etc. |
| 14:46.29 | elg | that's great, until you don't like qmail's pop3 or imap server. (haven't tried them) |
| 14:46.42 | elg | Hanuman: your problem there was redhat, not sendmail |
| 14:47.14 | elg | don't get me wrong, qmail is great. just not simple. |
| 14:47.24 | elg | but real secure :-) |
| 14:55.56 | elg | lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 7 Jun 5 10:58 /usr/bin/gcc -> gcc-3.3 |
| 14:56.11 | elg | I want to check what this links to in a shell script. what's a good way? |
| 15:07.35 | elg | grep. grep is my friend. |
| 15:10.25 | tensai | elg: stat -c %F /usr/bin/gcc |
| 15:10.36 | tensai | reports "symbolic link" |
| 15:12.44 | elg | tensai: i need to regex what it links to |
| 15:13.11 | tensai | stat -c %N |
| 15:13.37 | tensai | `/usr/bin/gcc' -> `gcc-3.3' |
| 15:13.43 | elg | that's nice. still no easier to work with than ls -l (which I already have working with grep) |
| 15:14.11 | elg | i think I need cut or some other sed relative, but not sure |
| 16:02.00 | Hanuman | Is Michael (Halcrow) in here? |
| 16:09.27 | tensai | I don't think so |
| 16:10.41 | Hanuman | good |
| 16:10.47 | Hanuman | ~lark Michael Halcrow |
| 16:10.59 | Hanuman | how do you lark something? |
| 16:11.49 | elg | lol. lart |
| 16:11.51 | elg | lark is a bird |
| 16:11.55 | Hanuman | oops |
| 16:12.03 | Hanuman | ~lart Michael Halcrow |
| 16:12.13 | Hanuman | ahh...I feel much better now |
| 16:12.19 | Hanuman | nothing to see here... |
| 16:12.44 | elg | fwiw it wasn't clear to me that it had been decided to drop the idea of LDSDPS |
| 16:14.14 | Hanuman | I don't mind the plugin idea to work with what is currently out there |
| 16:14.41 | Hanuman | It still appears that he is trying to replace MIS and FIS, though - maybe I'm not getting the point |
| 16:16.13 | Hanuman | I guess I'm just a bit confused as to what his plan is with this... |
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| 17:00.19 | Hanuman | elg: I think the LDSDPS is on the right path...I just want to be careful we don't cross-over what the church is doing. See my lates e-mail and let me know what you think... |
| 17:00.42 | Hanuman | I don't think we should drop it |
| 17:01.00 | Hanuman | s/lates/latest/ |
| 17:01.22 | elg | Hanuman: you haven't worked at the church before, I can see. :) |
| 17:01.34 | Hanuman | I have an Uncle who does |
| 17:01.37 | jayce_ | lol |
| 17:01.45 | Hanuman | why do you say that? |
| 17:02.10 | elg | The leaders are inspired, yes, but there's no reason to believe any software coming out of the church is infallible. It does a job and is written by mortals. |
| 17:02.27 | elg | it is no more perfect than church employees are perfect. |
| 17:03.07 | jayce_ | elg, what? are you saying the churches members aren't all perfect? that's it, I'm leaving this horrible place :> |
| 17:03.16 | elg | there's a distinct difference between the corporation of the president and the spiritual leadership - although inspiration indeed should be happening all over the place |
| 17:03.19 | Hanuman | I completely agree, but it is software produced by the church. I know there are many more reasons than we are told as to why those programs do what they do. |
| 17:03.44 | elg | sure - but most of those reasons are probably design consequences not decisions |
| 17:04.15 | elg | it does things this way because that's they way they designed it to acheive this other thing. the fact that X happens is just a side effect. just an example |
| 17:04.26 | Hanuman | So is it appropriate to recommend directly to the church that it do it another way? |
| 17:04.28 | elg | a perfect illustration is GEDCOM. |
| 17:04.32 | elg | no, I didn't say that |
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| 17:05.20 | elg | The church will find its path - we don't need to tell it what to do. But not because MIS is infallible, just because the church will use what the church will use. |
| 17:05.54 | Hanuman | So is it appropriate to be planning for MIS and FIS to be plugins for the LDSDPS? |
| 17:06.30 | elg | and we (local leaders/secretaries/etc) will use MIS for MIS purposes |
| 17:07.06 | elg | I think so, yes. If we are trying to make a general tool but neglect to consider the implications that possible targets bring to the table we are shooting ourselves in the foot. |
| 17:07.53 | elg | If the church decides to never make/commission those plugins, we're not worse-off; we still have the other stuff. And since the data stored in MIS is the center of it all anyway taking MIS into account certainly will do more good than harm |
| 17:08.37 | elg | i like your polygamy analogy. that's funny |
| 17:09.37 | elg | (still trying to figure out how one could prepare to support polygamy. it's hard enough to support one family ;-) |
| 17:10.44 | elg | brailsmt: it's a race to reimplment xless. FXRuby |
| 17:11.49 | brailsmt | that would be a piece of cake... |
| 17:12.03 | brailsmt | i can't beleive someone suggested C++ and qt! |
| 17:14.04 | jayce_ | perlqt :) |
| 17:14.30 | jayce_ | brailsmt, elg, did you read the slashdot review on the perl 6 book? check the part about parrot.. |
| 17:14.35 | Hanuman | I guess the thin line is how inspired is MIS/FIS, and should we even be questioning that. |
| 17:14.40 | jayce_ | covers a little bit on the ruby/parrot stuff |
| 17:14.57 | jayce_ | what's you opinions on the idea? (discussion starter) |
| 17:19.36 | levi | It strikes me as funny that church-created software might even be considered 'inspired' in the same sense as scripture, etc. |
| 17:22.59 | Hanuman | not in that sense. It does go through the general authorities, though. |
| 17:26.50 | levi | I don't think I have enough context to make any intelligent comments on the matter. Referring to software as inspired just struck me as kind of funny. |
| 17:27.29 | Hanuman | I guess as long as we aren't going into church buildings and replacing software without the church's permission, it should be okay to at least discuss the matter and consider it. |
| 17:28.17 | Hanuman | We wouldn't be advertising the software for use by wards, just discussing concepts - I guess BYU does that all the time, don't they? |
| 17:28.36 | levi | When would it not be okay to discuss and consider improving software? |
| 17:28.48 | levi | It's hardly blasphemous. |
| 17:29.13 | Hanuman | I'm beginning to see your point... |
| 17:29.46 | levi | It's not like the general authorites design the software themselves. They hire programmers to do it. I'm sure they approach their programming in pretty much the same way any other programmer does. |
| 17:29.47 | Hanuman | I just don't want the church to look at us and say "Hey - that's the group that keeps telling us how to write software" |
| 17:46.05 | Hanuman | I didn't know that Richard Pyne was on the list...didn't he consult with OGF? |
| 17:47.57 | jayce_ | sounds familiar |
| 17:48.09 | jayce_ | I can't remember most of those guys names though |
| 17:49.41 | Hanuman | Yeah - he was the guy that was really for Linux and helped set up DNS, etc. for them |
| 17:49.48 | elg | ... who believe that the traffic signals on BYU campus are set by |
| 17:49.50 | elg | divine inspiration... |
| 17:49.51 | elg | lol |
| 17:50.01 | Hanuman | He worked for the Sherrif's dept. and was a Ham |
| 17:50.12 | Hanuman | elg: I thought that was pretty funny, too |
| 17:50.34 | elg | there would go my testimony. right along with construction on I-15 being inspired |
| 17:50.38 | Hanuman | although sometimes I wonder |
| 17:50.49 | Hanuman | ;-) |
| 17:51.40 | elg | not that there couldn't be some inspiration in the process somewhere. that's a key point - the idea that the traffic lights are programmed the 'one true way' is ludicrous, but otoh never rule out the possiblity that inspiration played some part |
| 17:51.49 | elg | even in the world, among non-members |
| 17:52.07 | elg | again, the genealogy field comes to mind... spirit of elijah... |
| 17:53.06 | levi | Well, I assume that inspiration plays some role in just about everyone's everyday life. But generally that's personal inspiration rather than generally applicable stuff. |
| 17:53.17 | Hanuman | elg: that's what I was thinking in regards to what BYU does - they tend to propose new ideas for the church all the time |
| 17:55.13 | jayce_ | levi: amen :) |
| 17:58.06 | Hanuman | I'm okay with it as long as we maintain the attitude of "Is the church in support of what we are doing?" |
| 17:58.27 | brailsmt | i couldn't take that one thread any longer... |
| 17:59.12 | brailsmt | read my post to ldsoss for my feelings about it... |
| 17:59.48 | brailsmt | I cringed when I read that we cannot criticize MIS/FIS without the church's permission to do so... |
| 18:05.22 | elg | I watched the Star Trek:TMP director's edition last night. pretty cool |
| 18:05.37 | elg | next week, wrath of kahn |
| 18:11.39 | brailsmt | wrath of kahn is based on moby dick, btw :) |
| 18:12.53 | brailsmt | Kahn quotes Ahab when he says "From Hell's heart I stab at thee, with my last breath I spit at thee" |
| 18:13.12 | brailsmt | then he engages the genesis device... |
| 18:13.14 | brailsmt | ;) |
| 18:15.07 | brailsmt | and if you notice at the very beginning, Sulu (i think) takes Moby Dick off the shelf of books just before he gets that worm thing in his ear ;) |
| 18:18.44 | brailsmt | and until I am asked to not work on LDSDPS by my bishop, or it becomes obvious that the spirit of the project is all wrong , I really will not concern myself with whether the church is supportive/aware of our efforts... |
| 18:34.13 | Hanuman | brailsmt: I'm beginning to side with you on this issue. I was probably wrong not to allow criticism. |
| 18:35.45 | Hanuman | as long as it is not against the leaders or their teachings, I guess it should be fine |
| 18:36.35 | brailsmt | it isn't up to you allow or not anyway... |
| 18:36.39 | Hanuman | ~lart Hanuman's stubbornness |
| 18:37.19 | Hanuman | I agree - ultimately the committee that leads the group will be deciding issues like this and what the vision and policies of the group are going to be |
| 18:37.43 | brailsmt | i for one think the group is right on the money |
| 18:38.05 | Hanuman | The group has varying opinions, though |
| 18:38.39 | brailsmt | and the problem is not disagreeing with your church leaders, the problem is speaking out against them and not being humble enough to follow their counsels anyway, even if you disagree... |
| 18:39.03 | brailsmt | we are not supposed to follow blindly |
| 18:40.57 | Hanuman | I don't think the group as a whole should openly disagree with church leaders. Members can have varying opinions, and individually each have their disagreements, but the group needs to have it's own vision |
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| 18:41.34 | brailsmt | i don't think anyone is disagreeing with church leaders... |
| 18:41.54 | brailsmt | criticizing software != criticizing church leaders |
| 18:42.18 | Hanuman | yes, and that's where I'm beginning to agree with you on - that was my original concern, though |
| 18:42.18 | brailsmt | unless we begin to criticize the purposes and goals for the software |
| 18:42.25 | Hanuman | exactly |
| 18:42.35 | brailsmt | which no one is doing |
| 18:42.57 | brailsmt | at least that is my interpretation... |
| 18:44.32 | elg | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:44.46 | elg | but not in a code review ;-) |
| 18:48.39 | Hanuman | I think I'm beginning to agree with both of you on the issue. |
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| 19:15.11 | jayce_ | hehe... python examples from the email, can't copy/paste and have them work in most systems :D |
| 19:16.00 | brailsmt | and compare it with hans ruby impl :) |
| 19:16.16 | brailsmt | more than 3* the lines of source code |
| 19:16.30 | brailsmt | I bet I could write it in C++ with fewer than 48 lines... |
| 19:16.49 | jayce_ | yup |
| 19:17.12 | brailsmt | ;) |
| 19:17.28 | jayce_ | heck, I've seen a decent web browser written in perlqt with less lines than that, and that included heavy verbosity and spacing |
| 19:17.56 | brailsmt | well, heavy verbosity in perl is obfuscation in all other languages... ;) |
| 19:18.01 | jayce_ | now isnt' soren a big php guy? why didnt' he do it in php :D |
| 19:18.05 | jayce_ | lol.. whatever.. |
| 19:19.06 | brailsmt | of course a lot of the lenght for soren's impl of xless was setting up gtk, just goes to show that the gui toolkit makes all the difference |
| 19:19.15 | jayce_ | yeah |
| 19:19.39 | brailsmt | hans did all the widget setup with one line of code |
| 19:20.07 | brailsmt | err, four lines i mean |
| 19:20.35 | brailsmt | elg: you could replace STDIN.read with just ARGF |
| 19:20.58 | elg | cool |
| 19:21.36 | elg | don't know that I would, though. what does F mean? I'd forget that in a minuet. |
| 19:21.43 | elg | and even in a minute |
| 19:22.39 | brailsmt | ARGF is the concatenation of all files supplied on the command line, including stdin, i think... |
| 19:22.54 | elg | oh? then maybe I would :) |
| 19:23.47 | brailsmt | though foxless doesn't work for me... |
| 19:24.24 | brailsmt | [michael]$ ./foxless .vimrc |
| 19:24.24 | brailsmt | /usr/lib/ruby/site_ruby/1.8/fox/aliases.rb:1337:in `setText': wrong argument type Object (expected String) (TypeError) |
| 19:24.27 | brailsmt | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:24.30 | brailsmt | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:24.41 | brailsmt | oops... that is my fault... |
| 19:26.02 | brailsmt | ARGF.read works, but that isn't much different than what you had... |
| 19:26.50 | brailsmt | yes it is... "./foxless .vimrc" with STDIN.read, doesn't work for me... but ARGF.read does |
| 19:27.02 | elg | right. that's handy to know |
| 19:27.09 | jayce_ | so brailsmt, elg, what are your opinions on ruby running on parrot? |
| 19:27.33 | brailsmt | i don't care, so long as I get to keep ruby |
| 19:27.48 | brailsmt | i think the idea of parrot is cool, a universal interpreter |
| 19:28.17 | jayce_ | well, that's the idea.. get the scripting languages running on one base, then you could do your ruby, and use that one perl module that's already been written for a task you need.. and use them together. |
| 19:28.19 | brailsmt | i like language agnosticism... |
| 19:28.23 | jayce_ | ditto |
| 19:28.39 | jayce_ | oh? |
| 19:28.43 | jayce_ | too much python for you? |
| 19:28.46 | brailsmt | to little design for the thing to survive... |
| 19:28.50 | brailsmt | no too little design |
| 19:29.06 | brailsmt | i am working on a new wm with some other guys based on aewm... which hyper minimal |
| 19:29.16 | brailsmt | only 2017 lines of code for aewm |
| 19:29.24 | elg | jayce_: sounds awesome. haven't looked at it in detail really |
| 19:29.24 | jayce_ | nice.. |
| 19:29.52 | brailsmt | ~15000 lines of code for waimea which is what kahakai forked, and the waimea code is crap... there is at least one 700+ line method that I know of |
| 19:29.52 | | brailsmt: what are you talking about? |
| 19:29.53 | elg | brailsmt: ok, so how do I get a fixed-width font in the most generic way possible? |
| 19:29.56 | jayce_ | elg, well, there isn't too much out there yet, well a bit.. but there is a ruby port already... I'd liek to see that get some help.. |
| 19:31.25 | brailsmt | ruby is currently working on a bytecode interpretter, and i think parrot is not the intended target for the main developement, but matz says that Larry is his hero, so i bet the ruby will be runnable on parrot |
| 19:31.44 | brailsmt | elg: beats me... ;0 |
| 19:32.50 | brailsmt | [michael]$ ./foxless .vimrc .irssi/config |
| 19:33.05 | jayce_ | I'm really happy with the recent decision to make perl 5.10.0 run on parrot, instead of being just C based.. |
| 19:33.05 | brailsmt | with ARGF.read it shows both files in the text window |
| 19:33.20 | jayce_ | will make transitioning to perl6 extremely easy for companies.. |
| 19:33.38 | brailsmt | add more files and it will open them all and show them in the text window all concatenated... |
| 19:34.30 | brailsmt | imo, python will soon be less popular than ruby in the US, just like what has already happened in Japan... |
| 19:35.01 | brailsmt | then, perl next, and finally the world!!! MUAHAHAHAHA |
| 19:36.05 | brailsmt | you'll see... |
| 19:36.14 | brailsmt | polly want a cracker? |
| 19:36.19 | brailsmt | ;) |
| 19:37.09 | brailsmt | he is all excited about making a file an iterator... earth to guido, ruby has had this for years... |
| 19:37.44 | jayce_ | make a file an iterator? you mean an iterator for files? |
| 19:38.01 | jayce_ | or a file object an iterator type ? |
| 19:38.05 | brailsmt | File.open("foo").each { |line| puts line } |
| 19:38.15 | jayce_ | oh, ok.. |
| 19:38.24 | jayce_ | yeah, perl's IO::File been doing that for ages.. |
| 19:38.29 | brailsmt | what is like while(<>) something or other in perl... |
| 19:39.09 | jayce_ | not quite, while(<>) isn't quite up to that... only runs through it once, no way to move around (next/prev) etc.. |
| 19:39.13 | jayce_ | IO::File does that.. |
| 19:39.46 | brailsmt | File.open("foo").each { |line| puts line.reverse } |
| 19:40.12 | brailsmt | i wish ruby had rot13 built in to the String class... |
| 19:40.26 | jayce_ | it does.. |
| 19:40.31 | jayce_ | but only double rot 12 :D |
| 19:40.34 | jayce_ | grr. |
| 19:40.36 | jayce_ | 13 |
| 19:40.48 | brailsmt | yeah, that is really helpful, thx... |
| 19:40.50 | brailsmt | ;) |
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