| 00:26.50 | *** join/#utah synic (~synic@67.40.96.176) |
| 02:08.53 | *** join/#utah hans (~fugalh@128.187.242.99) |
| 03:02.06 | Bradipo | Ok, so I learned something new today about ssh... |
| 03:02.14 | Bradipo | Anyone else ever use ``ssh -D'' ? |
| 03:27.07 | Jayce^ | don't think so.. |
| 03:27.08 | Jayce^ | what is it? |
| 03:27.30 | goozbach | I give. what's it do? |
| 03:37.34 | Bradipo | It allows you to use your SSH tunnel as a SOCKS proxy. |
| 03:37.37 | Bradipo | Very handy. |
| 03:37.47 | Bradipo | Ever had to setup multiple tunnels to access various websites... |
| 03:38.05 | Bradipo | With -D you tell SSH to setup a tunnel for SOCKS proxying. |
| 03:38.23 | Bradipo | And then you configure your web browser (or whatever can use a SOCKS proxy) to use that tunnel. |
| 03:38.28 | Bradipo | Very, very handy. |
| 03:38.39 | Bradipo | But I had a question about it and was hoping someone could answer it. :-) |
| 03:39.08 | goozbach | cool |
| 03:39.16 | Bradipo | It's very cool. |
| 03:39.24 | Bradipo | One of the coolest I have seen in a while. |
| 03:41.04 | Bradipo | You can use it to provide internal access to clients outside the network for example... |
| 03:41.17 | Bradipo | Setup a shell server and then setup the proxy with SSH. |
| 03:41.29 | Bradipo | Then they have access to internal websites via that proxy. |
| 05:49.38 | *** join/#utah linuxalien (~linuxalie@12-254-238-235.client.attbi.com) |
| 05:49.45 | linuxalien | Hi there |
| 05:49.54 | Jayce^ | lo |
| 06:03.03 | linuxalien | How's it going? |
| 06:03.36 | Jayce^ | so so |
| 06:04.22 | linuxalien | Everyone has those days |
| 06:06.54 | linuxalien | Do you play Neverwinter Nights? |
| 06:07.24 | Jayce^ | yeah |
| 06:07.52 | Bradipo | Jayce^: Get any data recovered from your drive? |
| 06:07.55 | linuxalien | I've got a new character I'm breaking in. I started a server for just me and my brother, but people were joining off the internet. It was quite amusing. |
| 06:08.40 | linuxalien | I'll have to add a password. |
| 06:08.51 | linuxalien | Anyhow...what linux versions do you guys use? |
| 06:10.31 | Jayce^ | Bradipo: lost it all |
| 06:10.36 | Bradipo | Ouch. |
| 06:10.42 | Bradipo | So the drive was really going bad eh? |
| 06:10.48 | Jayce^ | yeah, physically |
| 06:10.50 | Bradipo | *really* |
| 06:10.55 | Bradipo | Man, that sucks. |
| 06:11.02 | Bradipo | How old was the drive? |
| 06:11.22 | Jayce^ | about 9 months is all.. but I'd never used that part of the drive until then |
| 06:12.11 | linuxalien | I wonder if they have any good books on OpenBSD. I use Mandrake... if I had more computers I'd experiment though |
| 06:12.26 | Bradipo | I wonder if hard drives are like cars; the older they were, the better they were built. |
| 06:12.42 | Bradipo | There is a new book just released about OpenBSD and I hear it is pretty good. |
| 06:12.53 | Bradipo | Called Absolute OpenBSD or something like that. |
| 06:13.25 | linuxalien | Cool. One of these days I'll experiment with it |
| 06:18.53 | linuxalien | night! |
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| 16:27.18 | Matt_O | hans! |
| 16:56.05 | hans | Matt_O: |
| 16:56.06 | hans | ! |
| 17:01.40 | Matt_O | :) |
| 17:03.38 | *** join/#utah daxal (supaplex@12-254-217-66.client.attbi.com) |
| 17:03.44 | daxal | sup |
| 17:04.35 | hans | daxal is in SLC |
| 17:04.48 | daxal | greetings folks. :) |
| 17:04.49 | hans | we're mostly dormant until someone bashes perl ;-) |
| 17:04.57 | hans | hey Jayce^, perl isn't as cool as ruby |
| 17:05.08 | daxal | hehe |
| 17:05.39 | daxal | but php replaces perl >=-0 |
| 17:09.36 | ramannoodle | hans: hey now... |
| 17:09.47 | ramannoodle | daxal: no - php consists of perl |
| 17:10.10 | ramannoodle | $php =~ m/perl/ |
| 17:10.27 | ramannoodle | ;-) |
| 17:11.04 | hans | ramannoodle: it's true :) |
| 17:11.30 | ramannoodle | actually, I can't argue with your statement...never used Ruby, so I shouldn't talk |
| 17:11.39 | ramannoodle | but Perl is really cool |
| 17:11.45 | ramannoodle | especially mod_perl |
| 17:11.50 | hans | given |
| 17:13.03 | ramannoodle | Jayce^: do you remember being forced to stay all night at ODF launching something that no-one else was willing to stay up doing with us? |
| 17:13.46 | Jayce^ | ramannoodle: no kidding, I remember that night... |
| 17:13.47 | ramannoodle | I think that's what started both of us looking elsewhere...it just took me a little longer to realize I should be looking more diligently |
| 17:13.54 | Jayce^ | hehe |
| 17:14.15 | ramannoodle | I think Barlow was the one that convinced me to look elsewhere...he was too |
| 17:14.44 | ramannoodle | It's real fun when you have Barlow dissing Alan with you... |
| 17:14.46 | Jayce^ | I think my final straw was that one guy coming in and (while I'd been doing 10-12 hour days, some saturdays) saying, that a 14 hour day was *required* |
| 17:14.56 | Jayce^ | yeah.. good old barlow |
| 17:14.58 | ramannoodle | was that Beck? |
| 17:15.04 | Jayce^ | yeah.. him |
| 17:15.10 | ramannoodle | he's a Bishop now |
| 17:15.21 | Jayce^ | very unfitting.. |
| 17:15.26 | ramannoodle | Barlows raking in good money now with his own mortgage company |
| 17:15.33 | Jayce^ | yeah.. |
| 17:15.41 | Jayce^ | almost went to him for my refi |
| 17:15.55 | ramannoodle | I'm going to as soon as I get out of debt from being laid off last summer |
| 17:16.08 | Jayce^ | yeah, always hate that |
| 17:16.19 | ramannoodle | I lost 20k from having to sell our house out there, so I've got to re-gain that |
| 17:16.40 | ramannoodle | the guy who bought it was one lucky guy |
| 17:16.55 | Bradipo | I have heard that internetmortgage.com does good business. |
| 17:18.16 | ramannoodle | This guy's company is acemortgage.com - it's still fairly new, though - he seems to be doing well |
| 17:18.35 | ramannoodle | He was my old boss, which is what kept me in the company after Jayce^ left |
| 17:19.01 | ramannoodle | if he hadn't of become my boss, I probably would have left (and should have) very quickly afterwards |
| 17:19.13 | ramannoodle | s/of// |
| 17:19.54 | ramannoodle | Jayce^: is Donny still involved with ODF? |
| 17:20.06 | Jayce^ | only in his initial investments.. |
| 17:20.20 | Jayce^ | alan of course, rubbed him bad too.. |
| 17:20.42 | ramannoodle | I think the only people working there now are those directly in Alan's Ward... |
| 17:21.05 | ramannoodle | I probably could have sued them if I really wanted for unfair business practices, but I'm not that type of person |
| 17:21.27 | Jayce^ | supposedly they are pretty profitable now... that's what happens when you fire all your initial people, before they can get any of their options.. and only hire your family members after that.. |
| 17:21.38 | ramannoodle | yup |
| 17:22.12 | ramannoodle | They need to rely more on Infogenix to handle the design && html of the site |
| 17:22.24 | ramannoodle | I know they have done much of the design, but the html is terrible |
| 17:23.23 | Jayce^ | yeah, infogenix made them a nice design.. and they chopped it to pieces.. bleh.. |
| 17:23.33 | ramannoodle | I think OGF has Infogenix (and others) design graphics, and then OGF just cuts and pastes it where they want |
| 17:23.56 | Jayce^ | and of course, they are still spamming me all the time from my old test account.. even though I deleted the account, and have tried getting off their lists.. |
| 17:24.02 | ramannoodle | I wasn't given much control over that myself when I was there |
| 17:24.08 | ramannoodle | Yeah - I get about 5 every 2 weeks |
| 17:24.32 | ramannoodle | test, see what's happening on OneGreatFamily! |
| 17:25.19 | ramannoodle | Before I left, they had me data mining gedcom files from other competing genealogy sites. |
| 17:25.35 | ramannoodle | before that they were having me data mine e-mail addresses so they could spam genealogical organizations |
| 17:25.46 | Jayce^ | yuck |
| 17:25.52 | hans | ^D is eof, is there a way to send a 'flush'? |
| 17:26.00 | hans | (to cat on stdin) |
| 17:26.00 | Jayce^ | hans likes ogf :) |
| 17:26.03 | hans | :P |
| 17:27.18 | ramannoodle | OGF will go away when the church has their new system out... |
| 17:29.24 | ramannoodle | now that they are profitable, I ought to ask them for my vacation benefits that they promised me when they would become profitable |
| 17:29.51 | ramannoodle | okay, I'll stop it... |
| 17:30.26 | ramannoodle | I've hit a sore spot in my history... |
| 17:33.14 | *** join/#utah brailsmt_work (michael@byu081031wks.byu.edu) |
| 17:35.33 | ramannoodle | Jayce^: so Krow is now at MySQL, huh? I will look forward for stored procs that come as part of MySQL |
| 17:36.36 | ramannoodle | I've been taking Oracle DB classes at school, and there is so much more I found out I can do with a db before I pass it on to the coding process... |
| 17:38.24 | Bradipo | You can write some serious applications in an Oracle DB. |
| 17:39.54 | ramannoodle | yes - I am only beginning to learn the power of an Oracle DB. How does PostGres stored procs compare in relation to PL/SQL? |
| 17:45.13 | ramannoodle | I hate orders from Lagos, Nigeria - never had one that wasn't fraudulent |
| 17:57.40 | hans | what is the ascii for eof? |
| 17:58.14 | Bradipo | man ascii |
| 17:59.38 | ramannoodle | I learned that in C++ onetime, can't remember - have to look it up... |
| 17:59.42 | hans | there's no EOF |
| 17:59.44 | hans | EOT |
| 17:59.49 | hans | but that didn't work |
| 18:00.54 | Bradipo | No EOF? |
| 18:00.58 | Bradipo | Hmm... |
| 18:02.05 | ramannoodle | ascii 26 |
| 18:02.47 | ramannoodle | at least that's what google says |
| 18:03.42 | hans | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:03.46 | hans | (decimal is the second number) |
| 18:04.37 | ramannoodle | wonder what SUB stands for |
| 18:05.15 | hans | substitute, i think |
| 18:06.57 | Bradipo | It's 0x04 |
| 18:07.04 | hans | EOT |
| 18:07.07 | Bradipo | echo -n "^D" | hexdump -c |
| 18:07.09 | Bradipo | Try that. |
| 18:07.10 | hans | that's what I thought |
| 18:07.17 | hans | so it just didn't work |
| 18:07.28 | Bradipo | To get a ^D you must to ctrl-v ctrl-d |
| 18:09.07 | hans | i'm trying to get php to behave. fread() will read until EOF or the size you specify - unlike C which will read whatever is available up to EOF or size and return |
| 18:09.17 | hans | I don't _want_ to block until EOF or size |
| 18:29.32 | ramannoodle | so what's the difference between fread and the C way of doing it? (I'm confused) |
| 18:31.37 | hans | C, if you read() will only block if there's nothing to be read. if there's something (even just 1 byte) it will read that 1 byte and return, even if you asked for 10 bytes |
| 18:33.10 | hans | but php's fread was blocking until you got the number of bytes you asked for, or EOF |
| 18:33.10 | ramannoodle | is fread() a PHP function? |
| 18:33.24 | hans | yeah (can't even name them like everyone else does) |
| 18:33.41 | hans | we found that if we leave the size parameter off entirely, it works like C though |
| 18:33.47 | hans | not documented, but works |
| 18:34.10 | ramannoodle | ahh...so did you figure out the answer to your problem then? |
| 18:34.46 | hans | yeah. fread($handle) instead of fread($handle,$some_big_number) |
| 18:39.45 | ramannoodle | I wonder if that's possible in Perl as well. What I normally do with Perl is just stat the filesize and enter that into my read() call. |
| 18:40.03 | hans | right, but that doesn't work with a fifo (filesize 0 or worse, an error) |
| 18:42.55 | ramannoodle | may I ask, what are you writing this for? |
| 18:43.03 | hans | work |
| 18:43.16 | ramannoodle | what type of program is it, though? |
| 18:43.52 | ramannoodle | (ie what does the program do?) |
| 18:46.05 | Jayce^ | anybody know if in mysql you can create a foreign key using a part of a composite key? |
| 18:46.57 | Jayce^ | as in key foo(bar,baz) is your key, then do a 'foreign key (baz) references table2(baz) ? |
| 18:47.00 | ramannoodle | no, but I'd like to know |
| 18:47.57 | ramannoodle | I've wanted to do that on a couple db's, but haven't figured out how yet. |
| 18:49.11 | Jayce^ | looks like you only can on the first element.. kinda makes sense.. |
| 18:49.49 | ramannoodle | only the first element of the composite? |
| 18:50.13 | Jayce^ | yeah.. |
| 18:50.38 | Jayce^ | so if you want a fk on the others, create their own indexes, or an alternate composite with that field first.. |
| 18:50.48 | ramannoodle | so would the composite be the parent or the child? |
| 18:51.02 | Jayce^ | child.. |
| 18:51.26 | ramannoodle | can you do a composite-composite foreign-key relationship? |
| 18:51.30 | Jayce^ | in mysql, you have to explicitly create the index on the child and parent rows before defining the foreign key.. |
| 18:51.46 | Jayce^ | dont' think sql quite supports that. |
| 18:52.00 | Jayce^ | a double foreign key in a single key |
| 18:52.57 | ramannoodle | what I mean is a composite index on the parent, and a composite foreign key referencing that parent key |
| 18:53.27 | Jayce^ | ahh, yeah.. |
| 18:53.43 | ramannoodle | yes, it's possible, or yes, you understand? |
| 18:53.44 | Jayce^ | as long as you are referencing the first column in the key.. |
| 18:54.01 | ramannoodle | okay - makes sense |
| 18:54.10 | ramannoodle | I'm going to have to experiment with that... |
| 18:54.21 | Jayce^ | because the trailing columns are made in reference to the first, so they do not contain the right info for their own key.. |
| 18:55.02 | *** join/#utah tensai (~tensai@dsl.dyn.01-86.budget.net) |
| 18:56.05 | Jayce^ | you know what's sad.. I know I've talked to tensai a bunch, but for the life of me I can't remember *who* he is.. :( |
| 18:56.31 | tensai | I gave the presentation on kernel modules |
| 18:56.35 | hans | he's tensai |
| 18:56.46 | Jayce^ | hehe.. the foreign key between the aliases and the real person got messed up :D |
| 18:57.02 | tensai | real name's Corey Edwards |
| 18:57.15 | Jayce^ | ahh.. now I'm getting it back.. |
| 18:57.17 | ramannoodle | Jayce^: so does that mean if I have a composite of (firstname, lastname), I can have a foreign composite of (firstname, middlename) referencing the parent of (firstname, lastname) |
| 18:57.30 | ramannoodle | ? |
| 18:58.02 | Jayce^ | ramannoodle: you would only have the foreign key relating the 'firstname' elements.. |
| 18:58.19 | Jayce^ | depending on you schema, it could be helpful.. |
| 19:00.12 | ramannoodle | ahhh...so you can't technically have two composites referencing each other - you have to divide them into individual elements, with only the first element allowed to reference the parent first element (if that makes sense) |
| 19:01.26 | ramannoodle | so if I have (firstname, lastname) as the primary key in one table, and my other table has firstname, lastname, I can only use firstname as the foreign key to reference the (firstname, lastname) composite |
| 19:03.24 | Jayce^ | yeah |
| 19:03.50 | ramannoodle | so what if you want to make sure the entire firstname and lastname are included in the parent table? |
| 19:04.06 | Jayce^ | two fk's... |
| 19:04.28 | ramannoodle | I guess that makes sense |
| 19:04.31 | Jayce^ | dunno, if they both have the two elements it might work.. but if you only have one in the parent, you can only use the one, and it must be first in the key |
| 19:06.19 | ramannoodle | so it would allow it if the name you are inserting into the child table is Sam Jones, and there is a Sam Anderson and a Fred Jones in the parent table, right? |
| 19:13.35 | ramannoodle | I love stumping my professors with questions like that...this is the stuff I want to know - forget the basics |
| 19:14.19 | ramannoodle | The funny thing is they'll say they don't know, and 5 seconds later I'll look it up on the internet and figure it out for myself. That's why I hate the concept of school. |
| 19:15.06 | ramannoodle | I do like learning, though. |
| 19:24.45 | levi | Me, I hate learning. I'm trying to un-learn; to empty my mind and be all zen-like and crap. ;) |
| 19:27.30 | ramannoodle | levi: I was a missionary in Thailand...I could help you with that ;-) |
| 19:30.34 | ramannoodle | Just become a monk...if you're married you'll have to divorce your wife, though |
| 19:30.55 | levi | Actually, I like learning. But, really, who doesn't? |
| 19:33.05 | levi | Being a monk would seriously cramp my style. |
| 19:33.42 | Jayce^ | levi: you'd have to get rid of your car :) |
| 19:35.01 | levi | My car, my computer, my portable electronic gadgets... |
| 19:35.54 | levi | And think of all the girls' hearts I would break. |
| 19:36.16 | levi | But would I get to wear one of those cool orange robes? |
| 19:41.24 | ramannoodle | I could get you one of those without you becoming a monk |
| 19:41.37 | ramannoodle | You'd have to wear it to PLUG meetings, though |
| 19:41.57 | Jayce^ | that's enough |
| 19:42.34 | *** join/#utah synic (~synic@208.187.125.239) |
| 19:42.46 | ramannoodle | No offense if anyone's Bhuddist, but the flaw with Bhuddism is to reach Nirvana you have to be a monk, to be a monk you can't be married, and if everyone were monks, Bhuddists would seize to exist |
| 19:43.51 | ramannoodle | Jayce^: have you reached Perl Nirvana yet??? |
| 19:44.09 | Jayce^ | hehe |
| 19:45.05 | neybar | doesn't reincarnation take care of that problem? |
| 19:45.19 | ramannoodle | If you are reincarnated as a Bhuddist |
| 19:45.26 | levi | You don't reincarnate once you reach enlightenment. That's the goal. |
| 19:45.39 | neybar | ah |
| 19:45.42 | neybar | that would suck |
| 19:46.08 | ramannoodle | Then there would be nothing but Christians, Muslims, and Hindus (and a few other religions) |
| 19:46.23 | levi | But if everyone achieved enlightenment, there would be no need for more individuals. |
| 19:46.28 | synic | I hate perl... |
| 19:47.08 | levi | Yeah, well I hate people who hate! |
| 19:47.53 | ramannoodle | I was a Bhuddist in another life. Now I don't believe in reincarnation, so unfortunately I will never reach enlightenment. |
| 19:48.13 | neybar | if you hate perl is cause you haven't used it to solve a real problem :-) |
| 19:48.26 | neybar | or else you read bad code... |
| 19:48.34 | synic | I've been scarred because of bad code. |
| 19:48.59 | ramannoodle | So what religion are they now? |
| 19:49.00 | Jayce^ | synic: let me guess, you read matt's script archive code ... :) |
| 19:49.25 | synic | lol, no... I just learned perl by editing a massive program that was written by someone that was learning to program... |
| 19:49.35 | synic | it had no comments |
| 19:49.38 | synic | no indentatin |
| 19:49.40 | Jayce^ | ugh... |
| 19:49.40 | synic | er... |
| 19:49.40 | neybar | ouch |
| 19:49.43 | ramannoodle | OOP? |
| 19:49.46 | Jayce^ | so that's not perl's fault.. |
| 19:49.55 | ramannoodle | pm? |
| 19:49.58 | synic | every function that was used in seperate scripts was copied |
| 19:49.58 | neybar | that'll give you a bad experience no matter what the code was then? |
| 19:50.07 | neybar | s/then?/then |
| 19:50.08 | synic | no oop |
| 19:50.12 | synic | yeah, it's not perl's fault |
| 19:51.10 | ramannoodle | so how many of you that write perl use a main subroutine? |
| 19:51.17 | ramannoodle | sub main {} |
| 19:51.26 | synic | lol, I use that, but not in perl anymore. |
| 19:51.39 | ramannoodle | I find myself doing that w/o thinking all the time |
| 19:52.04 | synic | function main() { } nowadays. |
| 19:52.04 | levi | I'm not a big fan of perl, mainly due to personal preference issues. Don't see the big fuss over it, really. |
| 19:52.34 | Jayce^ | levi: see, that's a valid argument.. taste... people should like languages that work best with them.. |
| 19:52.58 | ramannoodle | Jayce^: exactly |
| 19:53.12 | Jayce^ | a *lot* of people dont' seem to understand that.. |
| 19:53.50 | neybar | although there is an exeption for python... :-) |
| 19:54.33 | ramannoodle | I still like to argue with people that Perl's better, though |
| 19:55.14 | ramannoodle | It's especially fun when they get mad because you say it's better |
| 19:56.26 | ramannoodle | I like VBA myself... |
| 19:56.48 | synic | so.. do you guys freelance ever? |
| 19:57.59 | neybar | anyone on this list is going to call your bluff on the VBA. I don't think VBA's, or at least ones who wouldn't be ashamed to admit it would be here. :-) |
| 19:58.37 | ramannoodle | synic: sometimes...depends how much time I have |
| 19:58.43 | synic | ramannoodle: how much do you charge? |
| 19:58.51 | synic | and do you have a pay up front policy? |
| 19:59.11 | ramannoodle | While I was unemployed I only charged $30/hr just to get myself business. |
| 19:59.33 | ramannoodle | Pay up front depended on the contract |
| 19:59.34 | synic | ack. |
| 20:00.13 | ramannoodle | if it was going to be ongoing I wouldn't do pay up front, if it was one large project, I usually charge half up front |
| 20:00.19 | synic | where do you work now? |
| 20:00.40 | ramannoodle | Children's Wear Digest - cwdkids.com - I'm currently working in Richmond, VA |
| 20:01.01 | synic | I wish I was in VA... or Maryland, or DC |
| 20:01.04 | synic | I love it out there. |
| 20:01.16 | ramannoodle | I now charge $50/hr minimum |
| 20:01.54 | ramannoodle | I really like the trees - there are a lot of jobs in the Northern VA/DC area as well |
| 20:02.08 | ramannoodle | A job up there I would charge much more for... |
| 20:02.42 | ramannoodle | It is really expensive up there. |
| 20:02.58 | synic | well, get me a job! |
| 20:02.59 | synic | hehe. |
| 20:03.03 | ramannoodle | I'm actually missing Utah - I think I might move back. |
| 20:03.06 | synic | It's hard out here. |
| 20:03.29 | ramannoodle | synic: I said there were a lot of jobs - I didn't say there were a lot of available jobs... ;-) |
| 20:03.40 | ramannoodle | otherwise I would probably be up there |
| 20:04.12 | synic | hehe |
| 20:04.18 | synic | yeah, I searched high and low. |
| 20:04.25 | ramannoodle | Yeah - I moved out here because of the job market out there. |
| 20:04.26 | synic | I'm doing almost tech support now. |
| 20:04.33 | ramannoodle | Also, my parents live up in Northern VA |
| 20:05.08 | ramannoodle | My parents' neighbor is one of the Sysadmins for AOL... |
| 20:05.30 | synic | ack |
| 20:06.07 | synic | I need a new job. My programming skills are being waisted. |
| 20:06.30 | synic | the only freelance stuff I get now is the "we need this done in 15 minutes for some pyramid scheme, and we might pay you later" |
| 20:06.39 | ramannoodle | Actually, my current job doesn't let me do all of the programming I'd prefer. I'm more in charge of the business end of handling a website. |
| 20:07.44 | ramannoodle | I write Perl scripts here and there (along with some, um, VBA for an Access app - but we won't go there, I'm ashamed to admit it), but I mostly manage affiliate programs, come up with marketing technology ideas, and administer our um, Windows network |
| 20:08.16 | ramannoodle | They don't pay as well as I'd like, either, but I think everywhere it's like that |
| 20:08.49 | ramannoodle | I'm trying to push my company to stop hiring out for their web development, and just hire someone else to do my job, and pay me to do the development myself |
| 20:09.03 | synic | yeah, at my previous job I was getting payed more than twice what I am now, but they went belly up. |
| 20:09.26 | ramannoodle | My last job, too...I was unemployed for 6 mos |
| 20:09.54 | synic | me for 4... I applied at every place I could find in the phone book for Utah and Salt Lake County |
| 20:10.00 | synic | and some head hunters too |
| 20:10.00 | ramannoodle | my last job even paid me to move over here...6 mos later they closed their Richmond offices and left me high and dry |
| 20:10.03 | synic | no one called back. |
| 20:10.34 | ramannoodle | That's tough...if I hear anything I'll send it your way. |
| 20:10.34 | synic | ramannoodle: how did they find out about you? |
| 20:10.48 | ramannoodle | my last job or my current one? |
| 20:10.52 | synic | the last one? |
| 20:11.04 | synic | brb |
| 20:12.50 | ramannoodle | I lucked out on my last one. My company in Utah mentioned some financial difficulties (among other things, which I'm sure Jayce^ knows), and I started looking. A head hunter saw my resume on Monster and set me up w/ an interview. 3 mos later I was offered the job, just in time, since I was laid off the day before I was offered the job. |
| 20:13.08 | ramannoodle | That was 2 years ago, though...just as the economy was just barely starting to get bad. |
| 20:20.09 | synic | huh. I rode my employment out clear until I was 1 of two employees... and then got this job |
| 20:20.18 | synic | I still do emergency work for the first job. |
| 20:20.37 | ramannoodle | synic: What are your skills |
| 20:21.06 | synic | Perl/PHP/MySQL |
| 20:21.12 | synic | I know Linux and apache of course |
| 20:21.17 | synic | FreeBSD OpenBSD |
| 20:21.32 | synic | don't know perl as well as I know PHP |
| 20:21.41 | ramannoodle | You might want to give some business cards to local hosting companies. I know sometimes they'll have clients that need work done for them. |
| 20:22.10 | synic | yeah.. actually, a lot of places in the phone book kept asking me if I know ASP. |
| 20:22.20 | synic | I've been thinking about learning it... just for a job. |
| 20:22.28 | ramannoodle | Another thing I've seen that I've never tried myself, but I like, is here sometimes we'll have people come in for "informational interviews" |
| 20:23.05 | ramannoodle | They just come in to introduce themselves, and find out information about a certain person's job - they leave a resume, and if something ever does pop-up, they're the first people we think of. |
| 20:23.36 | ramannoodle | We just tried to hire someone that did one of those. |
| 20:23.38 | synic | huh |
| 20:24.20 | ramannoodle | So you would call up a company, tell them you are interested in becoming a <name your position here>, and were wondering if you could talk to someone who does that about their job. |
| 20:24.55 | synic | I've never had any formal training on programming... I've only learned from others and by myself. I wish there was a PHP class or something |
| 20:25.04 | ramannoodle | Try to get a one-on-one interview with the person, tell them a bit about your experience, ask them how they got to where they are, what they recommend for you to get into the marketplace, and if there is anywhere they could point you to. |
| 20:25.07 | synic | I took some college classes... |
| 20:25.13 | synic | but I don't think I learned much |
| 20:25.38 | synic | that's a good idea. I am gonna try that. |
| 20:26.29 | ramannoodle | If anything, you'll learn where to look and how to get better at interviewing |
| 20:27.40 | ramannoodle | If it makes you feel better, I took this job without knowing Access or Visual Basic, but I was able to tell them in the interview that I was completely confident I could know it and troubleshoot it in a day or two, and they hired me. |
| 20:28.04 | ramannoodle | Now I do most of my programming in Perl (on Windows, unfortunately) |
| 20:28.14 | synic | activeperl ? |
| 20:28.24 | ramannoodle | that and visual perl.net |
| 20:28.48 | ramannoodle | I absolutely hate Microsoft Access and VBA |
| 20:29.00 | ramannoodle | _way_ too limited |
| 20:29.20 | ramannoodle | fortunately they are using a RDBMS along with it, rather than stuffing all data into Access |
| 20:29.35 | ramannoodle | unfortunately, that RDBMS is MS SQL |
| 20:29.55 | ramannoodle | but it's a job, and I'm grateful for it |
| 20:30.08 | synic | I've never had to use Access |
| 20:30.22 | ramannoodle | neither have I until this job |
| 20:30.24 | synic | nor VBA |
| 20:30.32 | synic | been thinking I might wanna learn some java |
| 20:30.33 | ramannoodle | It's actually pretty easy to learn. |
| 20:30.49 | neybar | don't do it! java is the dark side! |
| 20:30.58 | synic | why do you say that? |
| 20:31.09 | Jayce^ | hey, compared to VBA it's more of a *gray* side |
| 20:31.18 | neybar | most personal opinion.. I really dislike coding in java |
| 20:31.18 | ramannoodle | You don't have to know programming to use Access, and if you want to use VBA, basic programming skills will allow you to learn it very quickly |
| 20:31.32 | ramannoodle | I'd program in Java vs VBA anytime |
| 20:31.41 | synic | well, the reason I would want to learn java is portability. |
| 20:31.43 | ramannoodle | our website is in Java (Resin/Apache) |
| 20:32.04 | synic | that and it includes all the libraries (or so I am told) for anything you might want to write |
| 20:32.05 | Jayce^ | perl is actually more portable than java |
| 20:32.06 | neybar | the problem is that java isn't as portable as people would have you think |
| 20:32.38 | synic | what would you recommend for a standalone portable application language? |
| 20:32.46 | neybar | for doing what? |
| 20:32.59 | synic | I dunno - whatever. Accessing a MySQL database say... |
| 20:33.38 | neybar | if you are doing web programming I would recommend perl... |
| 20:33.54 | ramannoodle | I second that...(but I'm biased) |
| 20:33.55 | synic | well, I'm gonna use PHP for web programming, but what about standalone applications? |
| 20:34.15 | neybar | standalone meaning what? |
| 20:34.25 | neybar | like the next office suit? |
| 20:34.39 | synic | neybar: like non-web based. |
| 20:34.51 | neybar | it still depends on what you are doing |
| 20:35.11 | synic | ok... writing a customer tracking system based on an SQL database |
| 20:35.21 | levi | Be a non-conformist. Use Lisp or a ML-derivative or something. ;) |
| 20:35.22 | neybar | you can still do that with perl |
| 20:35.25 | synic | one that could be used to replace this lame oracle applications software I am using. |
| 20:35.35 | ramannoodle | synic: I think you could make any application portable in any language - just depends on the methods you use to program...you have to program thinking of portability |
| 20:35.35 | neybar | or learn C++ |
| 20:36.16 | neybar | you can build gui apps with perl using a variety of tools like perl/tk etc |
| 20:36.17 | ramannoodle | (as long as the language compiles on multiple platforms) |
| 20:36.33 | ramannoodle | perl.net lets you do that, too. |
| 20:36.44 | Jayce^ | perl/gtk, perl/QT, wxwindows |
| 20:37.04 | synic | hrmm... I've taken a total of 4 classes on C++, aced them all, and I still don't think I could do anything useful with it. |
| 20:37.08 | ramannoodle | perl.net lets you access the standard windows libraries for the gui |
| 20:38.15 | synic | what about python? |
| 20:38.53 | Jayce^ | blah.. |
| 20:38.59 | neybar | the problem here is that you are running into our biases... everyone who is currently paying attention really likes Perl. Come back in half an hour or so and you will get a completely different set of answers |
| 20:39.01 | synic | blah huh... |
| 20:39.22 | Jayce^ | python does about the same stuff as perl, just takes a very different theological/political standpoint than perl. |
| 20:39.35 | neybar | you really just need to jump in and see what you like |
| 20:39.37 | synic | yeah, I guess this discussion is almost as pointless as the "which distro is better" discussion. |
| 20:40.27 | ramannoodle | I think there's even a python.net (or there will be soon) |
| 20:40.47 | synic | brb again. |
| 20:41.06 | neybar | who needs .net, just set up your own soap server and write apps for it... :-) |
| 20:41.32 | Jayce^ | because .net's soap isn't standard :( |
| 20:42.00 | neybar | and that surprises anyone |
| 20:42.00 | Jayce^ | or better.. they made their own standard and adhere to it.. |
| 20:42.36 | neybar | btw, I am blaming you for any lost productivity |
| 20:44.27 | ramannoodle | forgive my naiveness, but I've lost track of the developing Perl programming world - what exactly does SOAP do? All I know is that it has something to do with XML. |
| 20:45.02 | Jayce^ | basically, it's a remote object access protocol, via xml.. |
| 20:45.09 | ramannoodle | Like I said, I've been forced to write VBA scripts for the past couple months. |
| 20:45.32 | ramannoodle | does it work on Windows, too? |
| 20:45.38 | Jayce^ | oh yeah.. |
| 20:45.54 | Jayce^ | it's a lot of the basis of .net.. but as I noted, they changed things.. |
| 20:46.03 | ramannoodle | Is it just a protocol, or is it a service that has to be run for it to work? |
| 20:46.17 | Jayce^ | protocol |
| 20:46.32 | neybar | it is a service in windows though isn't it? |
| 20:46.36 | Jayce^ | you just need a server to handle the requests via whatever transport you want. |
| 20:46.58 | Jayce^ | well, a soap server service.. but that's all it is, a request handler that passes it on to the registered app |
| 20:47.22 | ramannoodle | So can I write C programs that can communicate with my Perl programs using SOAP? |
| 20:47.30 | ramannoodle | (ie access each others' libraries) |
| 20:48.42 | *** join/#utah hans (~fugalh@128.187.242.99) |
| 20:50.38 | Jayce^ | yeah.. |
| 20:50.43 | hans | yeah |
| 20:50.45 | hans | yeah what? |
| 20:50.46 | ramannoodle | I'm just curious if I can access the standard Windows gui libraries with SOAP by writing in Perl |
| 20:50.49 | Jayce^ | but if they are local, Inline or xs or something would be better. |
| 20:51.09 | ramannoodle | yes, but Windows doesn't have Inline or xs, really |
| 20:51.29 | ramannoodle | and then again, Linux doesn't have .net calls |
| 20:51.43 | ramannoodle | (at least until mono comes out) |
| 20:52.15 | ramannoodle | hans: we're talking about portability |
| 20:52.38 | ramannoodle | so maybe SOAP is the answer for portability |
| 20:53.46 | neybar | soap is an answer for portability, but as always they took an open standard and made it proprietary |
| 20:54.05 | Jayce^ | well, with soap, you can have a win client using a linux backend.. |
| 20:54.58 | hans | portability in what sense? |
| 20:55.28 | ramannoodle | cross-platform - which language works best for cross-platform portability? |
| 20:55.58 | ramannoodle | I was mentioning perl.net as we were talking about perl, and Jayce^ brought up why not just use SOAP? |
| 20:56.05 | hans | well if you mean write once run anywhere, either java or some scripted language with its interpreter. imho |
| 20:56.14 | ramannoodle | correct me if my summarization is wrong |
| 20:56.43 | ramannoodle | I'll have to get a book on SOAP or something - I'd like to learn more |
| 20:57.19 | hans | i don't know much about .net but I know soap pretty well |
| 20:57.23 | ramannoodle | hans: I was mentioning perl.net for that same reason - when mono comes out it will be write once, run everywhere |
| 20:57.34 | levi | Soap gets me clean in the morning. |
| 20:57.38 | ramannoodle | (if I understand mono correctly) |
| 20:57.45 | hans | levi: I've heard about that |
| 20:57.53 | hans | i wonder if it would work for me |
| 20:58.52 | levi | hans: I'll bet it would. It's a pretty universal phenomenon. |
| 20:59.01 | levi | Just be sure to rinse it off afterwards. |
| 20:59.08 | levi | Or people will laugh at you. |
| 20:59.12 | hans | levi: may be, but I use linux. are you sure it would work for me? |
| 20:59.31 | hans | even if I use foohat linux? |
| 20:59.59 | levi | If you've ever shaved before, the extra bonus you get from not using soap does no good. |
| 21:00.26 | levi | The linux hacker no-soap bonus only works with long, scraggly beards. |
| 21:00.54 | neybar | just becareful... if you don't use soap you get a -10 to charisma |
| 21:00.58 | hans | ramannoodle: I don't understand how SOAP will solve any cross-platform issues in absence of a network connection to a server |
| 21:01.12 | hans | neybar: so I guess my beard would have to be pretty long to offset that |
| 21:01.18 | neybar | oh yeah |
| 21:01.21 | hans | but my wife won't let me grow one (yet) |
| 21:01.24 | neybar | like to you knees |
| 21:01.34 | hans | lol. and pitch black or snow white |
| 21:01.40 | neybar | right |
| 21:03.22 | hans | ramannoodle: it's RPC, plain and simple. |
| 21:03.36 | hans | you're just packaging rpc in xml. |
| 21:03.53 | ramannoodle | hans: I was just trying to understand from Jayce what soap was my comment above just meant I'm not very clean |
| 21:04.15 | ramannoodle | ;-) |
| 21:04.17 | hans | heh. |
| 21:04.19 | ramannoodle | makes sense, though |
| 21:04.39 | ramannoodle | I am very anxious to see what mono brings |
| 21:04.49 | hans | i'm not anxious to get mono |
| 21:05.01 | levi | Yeah, no mono for me, thanks. |
| 21:33.54 | *** join/#utah Mecworks_ (~Marc@novell123456.print.lab.novell.com) |
| 22:20.06 | *** join/#utah Jayce^ (~jayce@65.218.37.161) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 22:51.18 | hans | this is frustrating. I can't find kups for debian and I can't figure out any other way to manage cups. their sorry excuse for a web interface notwithstanding |
| 22:51.39 | hans | surely the cups people have some way of actually managing the thing without relying on kde? |
| 22:59.19 | *** join/#utah Bradipo (~amb@ip-64-32-156-231.dsl.lax.megapath.net) |
| 23:02.20 | *** join/#utah Bradipo (~amb@ip-64-32-156-231.dsl.lax.megapath.net) |
| 23:14.29 | hans | aha! /var/log/cups |
| 23:24.00 | levi | What's wrong with the web interface? |
| 23:24.23 | hans | I needed to know why it was failing so I could troubleshoot it. the web interface is no more helpful than lpr and lpq |
| 23:24.47 | hans | kups would let me look at the 'ipp report', which I haven't been able to find otherwise |
| 23:25.05 | levi | Oh. I don't recall ever looking at an ipp report. Is it in the log file? |
| 23:25.40 | hans | no, but if you turn on debug there's a ton of stuff in the log file. I'm hoping it will be enough to troubleshoot this |
| 23:25.48 | hans | atm it's looking like ghostscript was at fault |
| 23:50.33 | levi | Heh. No luck printing? |
| 23:54.43 | hans | nope. gonna do the unthinkable and boot into windows to see. a friend already helped me troubleshoot the printer so I know it's not the printer |
| 23:58.28 | levi | Heh. |
| 23:58.33 | levi | How long since you rebooted? |
| 23:58.50 | hans | $ uptime |
| 23:58.50 | hans | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:59.02 | hans | which means it's been too long since I played liero. ;-) |
| 23:59.17 | levi | Played what? |