| 01:02.12 | TheSeige | yo |
| 03:55.20 | Jayce^ | It's a sunday night.. like anybody in #utah really would be doing anything in here.. |
| 05:12.32 | Jayce^ | http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/02/opinion/02SAFI.html?ex=1055131200&en=427ebaa6df56fcbb&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE |
| 07:06.18 | *** join/#utah HarleyPig (~harleypig@67.42.17.35) |
| 07:31.15 | *** join/#utah flyboy (~flyboy@12-254-185-218.client.attbi.com) |
| 07:31.23 | flyboy | Anyone here? |
| 07:31.38 | HarleyPig | No. We're all bots. |
| 07:31.45 | flyboy | Okay good, just checking. :) |
| 07:31.50 | flyboy | Mecworks <-- Marc ? |
| 07:31.52 | HarleyPig | :] |
| 07:32.26 | HarleyPig | That's what his identd is reporting. |
| 07:32.27 | flyboy | Guess he is being sensible and sleeping. :) |
| 07:32.42 | HarleyPig | sleep? where can I download that from? |
| 07:33.15 | flyboy | Well - it has to be the Marc I know - must need his beauty rest for that new novell job of his. |
| 07:33.45 | HarleyPig | somebody got a job ... here in UV? |
| 07:33.51 | HarleyPig | impressive |
| 07:33.58 | flyboy | So, I had no idea that #utah existed. |
| 07:34.04 | flyboy | You hang out here often? |
| 07:34.25 | HarleyPig | Not as much as I need to. |
| 07:34.38 | flyboy | I wonder what the traffic is like during the day. |
| 07:34.49 | HarleyPig | Heh ... so do I. |
| 07:34.55 | flyboy | You a SLLUG guy? |
| 07:35.03 | HarleyPig | Nope, PLUG |
| 07:35.15 | flyboy | Sweet. You guys need to go after SCO down there. |
| 07:35.26 | flyboy | Burn down their guard house or something. :) |
| 07:35.56 | flyboy | Jim Freeman ever hang out in here? |
| 07:36.54 | HarleyPig | Guard House? They're in Lindon! They think they're protected just by virtue of their location. |
| 07:36.54 | flyboy | Sorry - I guess I just figured out that there might actually be a place on this irc server that might contain individuals I know. |
| 07:37.01 | HarleyPig | :> |
| 07:37.09 | HarleyPig | Not familiar with Jim Freeman. |
| 07:37.40 | flyboy | I've been wondering how Doug Beatie is doing. I hope he gets well soon. |
| 07:37.50 | flyboy | Don't suppose you know him either huh. |
| 07:37.55 | HarleyPig | I'm not familiar with himeither. |
| 07:38.13 | flyboy | He is sort of the one "in charge" at the SLUG meetings. |
| 07:38.18 | flyboy | I guess he had a heart attack. |
| 07:39.04 | HarleyPig | Oh. That'snot good. |
| 07:39.11 | flyboy | So are you an ex lineo/caldera/novell or are you a CS major from the Y? ;) |
| 07:39.49 | HarleyPig | None of the Above. Although I'm going to Stevens-Henager now ... I'm just an out of work programmer doing tech support. |
| 07:40.00 | flyboy | Fun fun. What languages? |
| 07:40.23 | HarleyPig | COBOL, perl |
| 07:40.30 | HarleyPig | I know, wierd combo. |
| 07:40.44 | flyboy | That is a little strange. COBOL??? Where did that come in? |
| 07:40.49 | HarleyPig | I'm learning myself php. |
| 07:40.52 | flyboy | Are you over 40 or something? :) |
| 07:41.24 | HarleyPig | Close. Actually, I learned it from my dad, who started programming in the 60s. |
| 07:41.46 | HarleyPig | I grew up learning how to hack business apps. |
| 07:41.47 | flyboy | That's great! I am sure there are a few mainframes out there that could use a guy like you. |
| 07:42.24 | HarleyPig | Yeah. I'm not older tan 55 so the old guys don't trust me and I'm older than 30 so the young guys don't trust me. |
| 07:42.34 | flyboy | Do you mind me asking some personal bio? age/name/all that jazz? |
| 07:42.56 | HarleyPig | Nah ... Alan, 38, I prefer techno to jazz. |
| 07:43.18 | HarleyPig | Although Duke Ellington had some good stuff. |
| 07:43.19 | flyboy | 38 and into techno. And the young guys don't trust you??? |
| 07:43.34 | HarleyPig | :D |
| 07:43.46 | flyboy | I am Ryan, 26, and I have to be in a strange mood for jazz. |
| 07:43.53 | HarleyPig | It rarely gets that far. I actually have a very eclectic taste in music. |
| 07:44.00 | flyboy | I'm an independant guy (read: out-of-work). |
| 07:44.10 | flyboy | C, assembly, Perl, PHP |
| 07:44.13 | flyboy | Adding more soon. |
| 07:44.31 | flyboy | Right now I'm working on the H8S uClinux port. |
| 07:44.37 | flyboy | or attempting to work on it any how. |
| 07:45.38 | flyboy | Is your nick some refrency to the type of vehicle you operate? |
| 07:46.24 | HarleyPig | I'm a wannabe. |
| 07:46.36 | HarleyPig | Can't afford a Harley at the moment. But I look the part. |
| 07:46.38 | flyboy | I see, that's why it's not "HarleyHog" huh? :) |
| 07:47.11 | HarleyPig | :> |
| 07:47.27 | flyboy | Well, for what you can pay for one of those things I hope you can get a second mortgage on your home. :) |
| 07:48.04 | HarleyPig | Naw ... I won't buy one until everything else is taken care of. Which probably means I'll have a stroke on the freeway and waste it. |
| 07:48.14 | flyboy | lol |
| 07:48.21 | flyboy | My wife was a rehab nurse for a while. |
| 07:48.27 | flyboy | She doesn't like motorcycles. |
| 07:48.49 | flyboy | So don't crash... or you'll have someone change your diapers for you until you die. |
| 07:48.54 | HarleyPig | Probably saw too many idiots and thinks all cyclists are idiots. |
| 07:49.21 | HarleyPig | I have a living will. If I can't take care of myself I'm not to be IV'd. |
| 07:49.23 | flyboy | No - she saw a lot of experienced riders get taken out by idiots. |
| 07:49.45 | HarleyPig | There is that. |
| 07:49.46 | flyboy | It's unreal how many back injuries there are in the world. |
| 07:50.06 | flyboy | topic switch... how long you been hacking Perl? |
| 07:50.17 | HarleyPig | about 5 years. |
| 07:50.39 | flyboy | Cool, about the same for me. |
| 07:50.40 | HarleyPig | Actually started in a cobol shop ... they ar eboth text manipulation languages. |
| 07:51.40 | flyboy | So you are doing tech support huh? Are you in a call center? |
| 07:52.04 | HarleyPig | Not right now ... if I was I wouldn't be on this channel ... they have us on a white list. |
| 07:52.30 | HarleyPig | I've already figured out 3 or 4 ways to hack it, but it's more important for me to get a paycheck. :> |
| 07:52.47 | flyboy | yeah - I can see how that would be a good thing to have. |
| 07:53.00 | HarleyPig | :/ |
| 07:53.07 | flyboy | I just quit sticking systems together. I couldn't take turning a screwdriver another second. |
| 07:53.15 | flyboy | thank goodness my wife is a nurse! |
| 07:53.46 | flyboy | I hope to find something ASAP.... but in this market that could mean months. |
| 07:53.58 | flyboy | We will move though if things don't happen in the next couple months. |
| 07:54.23 | flyboy | I think Arizona/New Mexico/Florida might be a nice place to pick-up a carrer. |
| 07:54.32 | HarleyPig | I know Texas is booming. |
| 07:55.12 | flyboy | Texas is great.. oh yeah. I know a few guys near Dallas - they claim they will pay Linux guys quite a bit to move down there. |
| 07:55.33 | HarleyPig | My wife would like that. What company? |
| 07:56.01 | flyboy | It's a training company a friend of mine operates - it's small. |
| 07:56.32 | flyboy | Is your wife a Linux gal? |
| 07:56.55 | flyboy | Or do you mean to say she would like living in Texas while you work? :) |
| 07:59.53 | HarleyPig | She'd like living in Texas. She hates Utah and the cold. |
| 08:00.43 | flyboy | Yeah. I don't mind the cold - I just can't take the SUV drivers on I-15 (no offense if you drive an SUV). |
| 08:01.10 | flyboy | For some reason the speed limit gets translated from 65 to 85 through the windshield of an SUV. |
| 08:01.25 | flyboy | Glass distortion maybe? :) |
| 08:04.28 | HarleyPig | Mental distortion. |
| 08:07.28 | flyboy | Any way. I will TTYL, I got 150 more lines of code to bang out tonight. |
| 08:07.50 | flyboy | Nice meeting you Alan. |
| 08:11.34 | HarleyPig | Have a good one. |
| 08:11.44 | HarleyPig | Yipes ... it's two. G'night |
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| 14:12.34 | *** mode/#Utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
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| 15:06.12 | *** join/#utah tensai (~tensai@dsl.dyn.01-86.budget.net) |
| 15:08.30 | Mecworks_ | gaim's IRC support is lacking so I'm back to xchat now... |
| 15:13.49 | Mecworks_ | of course, it's on win32 which sucks. Can't wait till my testing starts focusing on Linux. |
| 15:39.41 | levi | xchat is excellent |
| 15:45.43 | brailsmt | me too |
| 15:45.54 | brailsmt | i used to use xchat |
| 15:53.54 | hans | apparently some of pixar's best work to date, yet seems from the posters/previews to be beyond cheesy |
| 15:55.10 | brailsmt | i will see it on friday, it looks humorous |
| 15:57.32 | Jayce^ | hans: list-reply to is only evil on plug :) (sorry Bradipo, carry over from a uug discussion) |
| 15:58.34 | hans | heh. well we have discussed it on uug, but maybe it's only a dead horse on plug. |
| 16:02.22 | brailsmt | hans: how did you get desert.vim included in 6.2? |
| 16:02.31 | brailsmt | congrats by the way |
| 16:02.37 | hans | :-) |
| 16:03.04 | Jayce^ | no kidding.. i need to upgrade to check it out |
| 16:03.21 | hans | I emailed bram and said he was welcome to put it in. I think I may have pointed out its rating on vim.sf.net :) |
| 16:04.29 | hans | touche ;-) |
| 16:05.05 | brailsmt | i wish i could remove midnight.vim from vim.sf.net, i think it is ugly... |
| 16:05.13 | brailsmt | midnight2.vim is much better |
| 16:05.14 | hans | there's a downside - people might not rate it on vim.sf.net if it's included. :) |
| 16:05.22 | Jayce^ | oceandeep <- my favorite |
| 16:05.36 | brailsmt | midnight2.vim <-- mine |
| 16:05.46 | brailsmt | as in my favorite, and i am the author |
| 16:06.00 | brailsmt | using hans colorscheme template :) |
| 16:10.22 | brailsmt | hans: have tried to compile vim with support for ruby1.8? |
| 16:10.28 | hans | no |
| 16:10.36 | Jayce^ | why? :) sorry, had to say it |
| 16:10.55 | hans | Jayce^: what would we do without you to keep us in line? ;-) |
| 16:11.33 | hans | btw, what did you do to get ops? Are we upping security or something? :) |
| 16:11.34 | brailsmt | Jayce^: to run ruby scripts of course, but more importantly, to write them... |
| 16:13.47 | Jayce^ | no idea.. I'm guessing tim set me up |
| 16:14.04 | hans | maybe he thought the @ balances out your ^ |
| 16:14.31 | Jayce^ | lol |
| 16:17.14 | hans | oh great, chuck allison gets turned off to linux because samba is difficult to set up and decides to write about it in CUJ |
| 16:17.44 | hans | samba has never been the shrine of ease-of-use. the reason of course is ironically the complexity involved because you're dealing with a microsoft protocol |
| 16:18.12 | brailsmt | cuj? |
| 16:18.26 | hans | c/c++ users journal, I think |
| 16:18.30 | hans | he writes for it. |
| 16:18.34 | Jayce^ | he did? dang.. |
| 16:20.08 | neybar | I think we tried to mention that a few times... I know for sure that it was recommened that he stop using RH8 and go to 9 |
| 16:20.22 | Jayce^ | yeah, that was mentioned several times. |
| 16:20.34 | hans | but is there hope - he says "due to my little foray into Linux and Mac OS X" so if OS X doesn't do what he wants he probably wants it to behave just like windows |
| 16:20.46 | neybar | RH8 just plain sucked from what I heard... I never use RH myself so I wouldn't know though |
| 16:20.47 | hans | and no wonder he's converted to windows then. |
| 16:21.20 | hans | i sent him on off-list email about why he should use debian and offering to help, but he wasn't interested in reinstalling |
| 16:21.50 | brailsmt | who is chuck allison... |
| 16:22.04 | neybar | uvsc professor |
| 16:22.17 | neybar | editor of C++ Users Journal |
| 16:22.21 | Jayce^ | senior editor.. |
| 16:22.34 | Jayce^ | also writes several books on C |
| 16:22.44 | hans | his comments on c++ are interesting. sounds like he needs ruby. ;-) |
| 16:22.57 | Jayce^ | nah, perl :) perl 6 especially |
| 16:23.04 | neybar | he gave a really good presentation on eXtreme programming a few months ago |
| 16:23.13 | Jayce^ | http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/02/opinion/02SAFI.html?ex=1055131200&en=427ebaa6df56fcbb&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE |
| 16:23.47 | brailsmt | why wait for perl6 when you can have all its features now, with the added bonus of code readability... |
| 16:23.54 | brailsmt | :o |
| 16:26.09 | hans | man, you would be surprised at the lack of sane recipe formats. there's one xml format that nobody uses (probably because of its insane license) |
| 16:26.23 | Jayce^ | because you dont' have all it's features, or readabilty :) |
| 16:26.46 | hans | Jayce^: show me a snippet of perl6 code that is more readable than ruby |
| 16:27.04 | brailsmt | or has a feature ruby doesn't |
| 16:27.52 | tensai | hans: recipes as in making food recipes? |
| 16:27.57 | Jayce^ | http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perl6es/ |
| 16:28.01 | Jayce^ | read that, it'll give you some.. |
| 16:28.09 | hans | tensai: yeah |
| 16:28.28 | neybar | I think readability is an invalid point to base language usage on. Perl can be as readable or unreadable as the author wants it to be. The same point can be made to pretty much any language. Ruby may impose more structure on its user, but I am willing to bet that you can make unreadable code in ruby if you really wanted |
| 16:28.33 | Jayce^ | besides, readability is always a user pref... for me, I can't stand 'end' (too much pascal) |
| 16:28.38 | tensai | hans: watcha trying to do? |
| 16:29.00 | brailsmt | like i am gonna spend money on another book about perl... |
| 16:29.20 | Jayce^ | http://www.reallifecomics.com/ |
| 16:29.32 | Jayce^ | actually, I'll just see if I can review it :) |
| 16:29.34 | hans | Jayce^: that coming from the ^-dude ;-) |
| 16:29.36 | neybar | either that or review it... |
| 16:29.52 | brailsmt | that is the point, you have to try write bad code in ruby, you have try to write readable code in perl |
| 16:30.21 | brailsmt | s/bad/unreadable |
| 16:30.27 | hans | neybar: readability is more than coding style. you can't change some things about a language, and those things can affect readability. |
| 16:30.57 | Jayce^ | but most people say things like, say the sigils are bade, they make code unreadable.. I say the opposite |
| 16:30.59 | hans | tensai: I'm writing recipe/menu software for my wife |
| 16:31.10 | brailsmt | perl's hidden variables are not readable, and neither is <> |
| 16:31.34 | tensai | tensai: I wondered. Me too. :) |
| 16:31.42 | Jayce^ | sure it is.. it's grammar.. although I'm usually explicit |
| 16:31.55 | tensai | s/tensai/hans |
| 16:32.08 | Jayce^ | it's like english.. 'it' or similar words.. |
| 16:32.12 | hans | i'd like it to be interoperable with other such software in the windows world, but there doesn't seem to be any standard out there other than the defacto MasterCook standard (which seems to be glorified text) |
| 16:32.26 | *** join/#utah Mecworks_ (~Marc@novell123456.print.lab.novell.com) |
| 16:32.31 | brailsmt | <> gives you no idea what is happening... |
| 16:32.42 | hans | tensai: really? how far along? |
| 16:32.43 | brailsmt | and it can do different things in different contexts |
| 16:32.57 | Jayce^ | while(<>) -- while you are being fed something.. |
| 16:33.02 | tensai | I never really looked into it. I figured I'd just type in all the recipes she actually uses. |
| 16:33.28 | Jayce^ | chomp; (chomp it) instead of chomp($thisline) |
| 16:33.36 | tensai | not very. I've restarted a number of times and since there's no computer in the kitchen it's not a high priority. |
| 16:33.37 | hans | same here - but looking for the wide applicability |
| 16:34.23 | tensai | my latest decision was to use libsqlite and use an embedded sql database |
| 16:34.41 | hans | planning on sqlite already |
| 16:34.41 | brailsmt | i prefer "File.open { |f| f.each_line { |l| l.chomp } }" that is much more readable |
| 16:35.26 | Jayce^ | while(<>) would only be used on standard in.. grammar.. :) |
| 16:35.30 | hans | actually, using dbi so the backend db doesn't matter. i think sqlite for the default though. |
| 16:35.31 | brailsmt | anyway, ruby is better ;P |
| 16:35.40 | Jayce^ | thbbbt |
| 16:35.47 | hans | lol. you two - do I need to call your mothers? |
| 16:36.01 | Jayce^ | hehe |
| 16:36.05 | tensai | hans: same here |
| 16:36.40 | hans | tensai: language? gui toolkit? any code yet? |
| 16:36.46 | brailsmt | here is my favorite from the "pure OO" python guys "class Foo; def init(self, arg) print arg" :) |
| 16:36.52 | Jayce^ | personally, I think it's all about your style.. ruby is closer to my style than the other options. .but still not as close as perl.. |
| 16:36.59 | Jayce^ | ugh |
| 16:37.44 | levi | The problem with perl 'readability' is that it requires a whole bunch of totally non-intuitive knowledge before it makes any sense. It's easy (like most computer languages) once you've mastered it, but until then, it's awfully hard to understand due to all the non-intuitive stuff. |
| 16:38.08 | brailsmt | you know when i write OO C code, I do something like "struct foo {...}; void init(struct foo self, int arg) {...}" so i guess C is pure OO just like python, right... ;) |
| 16:38.17 | tensai | hans: perl, with a Gtk (maybe Gnome?) front end. my code is all over the place with so many radical fundamental changes. |
| 16:39.10 | tensai | hans: I was thinking maybe a php gui as well, so it could be web enabled |
| 16:39.13 | hans | we (my bro and I) just started code over the weekend. ruby and gui undecided (Fox probably). |
| 16:39.21 | Jayce^ | actually, I find it very intuitive (personal style again)... many times I just write something hoping it actually works.. and it works. |
| 16:39.25 | Jayce^ | perlqt :) |
| 16:39.31 | brailsmt | fxruby |
| 16:40.01 | hans | tensai: that might be nice |
| 16:40.20 | Jayce^ | germain just made a cool plugin for kdevelop (it didn't support them before) for doing perlqt inside of it. |
| 16:40.25 | hans | but not a priority here... i hate web-enabled stuff. too slow |
| 16:40.34 | levi | Jayce^: Just because it works doesn't mean it's readable. |
| 16:41.09 | Jayce^ | I find it to be... but that's the thing, readable is in the eye of the beholder.. I can't stand to look at python . |
| 16:41.37 | levi | Jayce^: I'm not talking about 'aesthetically pleasing', I'm talking about being able to understand the code |
| 16:42.08 | levi | To understand perl code, unless everything is written explicitly, you have to know what all the sigils mean and all about the assumptions the interpreter makes. |
| 16:42.30 | brailsmt | and list and scalar context |
| 16:42.32 | levi | That's a lot of extra stuff you have to know and keep in your mind above what you'd have to know for a more explicit language. |
| 16:42.58 | levi | Which makes the learning curve steeper and 'readability' harder. |
| 16:43.01 | brailsmt | that is the onle that realy confused me... |
| 16:43.08 | brailsmt | s/onle/one |
| 16:43.09 | Jayce^ | and to understand other languages, you have to understand more variable types, and ref vs pointers, and finding where the variable was defined so you know what it is... see other's have their issues.. perl solves them.. |
| 16:43.36 | levi | I'm not saying that perl is evil or anything, or that it's really hard, just that it's not as readable as some other languages. |
| 16:43.55 | levi | That's one of the tradeoffs for its extreme flexibility. |
| 16:44.03 | neybar | perl is not evil! :-) |
| 16:44.05 | brailsmt | ok, i will, perl is evil... :) |
| 16:44.11 | Jayce^ | see, I find it the other way, I find it more readable, unless people are trying to be cryptic.. |
| 16:44.31 | levi | Jayce^: Dude, you're not getting my point. Any language is readable to someone who works with it a lot. |
| 16:44.45 | levi | Jayce^: You like it and find it aesthetically pleasing. That's totally different. |
| 16:44.59 | brailsmt | only perl coders think it is more readable, anyone else disagrees |
| 16:45.01 | Jayce^ | levi: I am getting the point.. I'm saying that's why I went with it.. I found it easier, so i went after it.. |
| 16:45.28 | levi | Jayce^: Did you find it easier to write, or easier to read other people's code? |
| 16:45.33 | Jayce^ | and only python coders thing their whitespace is God's gift to code.. same thign.. |
| 16:45.48 | levi | perl is easy to write. It's easy to get preexisting modules to do what you want. |
| 16:46.31 | Jayce^ | levi: I found both easier.. for me it made more sense in both sides.. clicked with my style better than other languages (I tested the others too) |
| 16:46.52 | brailsmt | i don't think is easy to write, I started with perl due to the suggestion in "The Pragmatic Programmer", I struggled with it for a few months, then found ruby and in a day i had written a few useful scripts... |
| 16:47.22 | brailsmt | i still have my camel book... |
| 16:47.25 | Jayce^ | brailsmt: I had the same kinda start in Perl (it just clicked) |
| 16:48.28 | Jayce^ | now, let's rip on languages we all hate :) |
| 16:48.34 | Jayce^ | any php fans in the room? |
| 16:48.35 | hans | Jayce^ and perl were born for eachother. :) |
| 16:48.45 | hans | i like php for a web language |
| 16:48.49 | brailsmt | i hate php |
| 16:48.52 | hans | i think python is the easiest victim |
| 16:48.54 | Jayce^ | hans: darn straight.. kinda like ruby for brailsmt |
| 16:48.57 | Jayce^ | I hate php.. |
| 16:48.59 | levi | I like python |
| 16:49.07 | hans | hmm. |
| 16:49.08 | Jayce^ | I can't stand embedding logic in your presentation.. |
| 16:49.17 | Jayce^ | I need to have separation |
| 16:49.30 | brailsmt | i use eruby where others use php ;) |
| 16:49.36 | hans | Jayce^: i like separation - that's why xml/xslt is a great approach I think |
| 16:50.11 | hans | brailsmt: eruby is ok. ruby loses a lot of advantages when you start using it like php - along the lines of Jayce's complaint about php |
| 16:50.12 | Jayce^ | yeah.. that has good points.. but php really encourages, and expects the joining of the two.. |
| 16:50.16 | brailsmt | while we are on scripting languages... check out kahakai.sf.net |
| 16:50.27 | levi | I like php because I don't need to do anything heavy-duty and it's incredibly easy to do the simple stuff I wanted to do with it. |
| 16:50.36 | brailsmt | </shameless plug> |
| 16:50.42 | Jayce^ | for web stuff... I like Mod_perl.. the only module besides c itself (praise be it's name :D ) that you can actually really work with apache... |
| 16:50.49 | Jayce^ | not be just a glorified content handler.. |
| 16:53.09 | neybar | so any clue what is going for plug this month? |
| 16:53.14 | hans | i know one we can all bash. vbs |
| 16:53.43 | brailsmt | we can all bash bash |
| 16:53.44 | brailsmt | :) |
| 16:53.53 | hans | i like bash :) |
| 16:53.59 | neybar | yeah, I though of vb too, seemed to easy of a target |
| 16:54.29 | Jayce^ | neybar: I think I'm going to ask a php bigot to talk.. only time I'll let 'em do it, while I'm gone :) |
| 16:54.36 | Jayce^ | unless anybody else wants the podium.. |
| 16:54.37 | neybar | lol |
| 16:54.51 | brailsmt | is vb really a language, or is it Bill Gate's baby and therefore marketed as one... |
| 16:54.58 | Jayce^ | baby |
| 16:55.07 | hans | heh. dave smith is as php-bigot as anyone on the web |
| 16:55.08 | Jayce^ | that's what he started with, and what he wants.. |
| 16:55.24 | Jayce^ | hans: yeah, him or soren, I was thinking of asking.. Robert oldham too |
| 16:55.53 | brailsmt | anything with "basic" in the name is not a serious language... |
| 16:56.01 | hans | heh |
| 16:56.20 | Jayce^ | apple-basic, then gw-basic |
| 16:56.35 | brailsmt | i learned ti-basic, ms-basic, qbasic, and even vb/vba... |
| 16:56.46 | hans | qbasic is an abomination. :) |
| 16:56.53 | brailsmt | s/q// |
| 16:56.54 | brailsmt | :) |
| 16:57.14 | Jayce^ | worked with vb for a while (first programming job).. been repenting ever since.. |
| 16:57.49 | brailsmt | i used vba/excel/word for my first "programming" job... |
| 16:58.01 | tensai | I tried to learn vb but it made me feel dirty |
| 16:58.06 | brailsmt | lol |
| 16:58.23 | hans | i 'learned' vb as I figured out the melissa virus. :) |
| 16:58.32 | Jayce^ | I used 'portuguese' vb on my mission to make some stuff for the office.. |
| 16:58.37 | Jayce^ | that is a joke.. |
| 16:59.01 | brailsmt | MS the company that provides the security holes and the tools to exploit them... |
| 16:59.06 | brailsmt | :) |
| 16:59.16 | Jayce^ | basically, they just replaced a little less than half the syntax with a portuguese word that kinda meant the same thing, and not always in the same conjugation.. |
| 16:59.34 | Jayce^ | perl, the first language with true grammar syntax for alternate languages.. |
| 17:00.10 | brailsmt | eyes even... |
| 17:00.11 | Jayce^ | hey, it's true.. and having used an alternate langue, I can see why that's a good idea... |
| 17:00.18 | Jayce^ | language |
| 17:00.44 | Jayce^ | it's tough for them to understand english -> computer syntax.. |
| 17:10.26 | neybar | yeah |
| 17:10.51 | neybar | how do you play a vcd? mplayer and xine both seem to be choking... |
| 17:12.05 | Jayce^ | really? mplayer works great on them for me.. |
| 17:12.14 | Jayce^ | how are you opening it? |
| 17:12.20 | neybar | mplayer file |
| 17:12.46 | Jayce^ | try gmplayer, then right-click to get the menu, and open vcd |
| 17:12.55 | brailsmt | Jayce^: you mean have gvim forwarded over ssh? or using vim's remote editing? |
| 17:13.02 | Jayce^ | remote editing |
| 17:13.17 | Jayce^ | stupid server only has vim minimal.. ugh |
| 17:13.35 | brailsmt | Jayce^: how do you do that? and is it secure? |
| 17:14.07 | Jayce^ | gvim scp://username@host//path/to/file |
| 17:14.10 | brailsmt | i know about the functionality, but i have never used it... |
| 17:14.24 | Jayce^ | scp's it to a local tmp.. and on saves, scp's it back up |
| 17:14.29 | brailsmt | really... that easy... |
| 17:14.40 | Jayce^ | yeah... I haven't looked back. |
| 17:14.58 | Jayce^ | no more locked vim sessions on the server :) |
| 17:15.01 | brailsmt | i save almsot everytime i exit insert mode, that'd keep the network busy... |
| 17:15.14 | hans | brailsmt: why? |
| 17:16.58 | brailsmt | a habit i picked up 2 years ago while working, I used to save just when i remembered to, but i lost too much work too often and so i started hitting <c-s> in JBuilder all the time... in vim it translates to <esc>:q<cr> and it is quick, and now it is automatic... |
| 17:17.18 | brailsmt | i guess it was 3 years ago... |
| 17:17.34 | brailsmt | it was about the same time that I started switching to vim |
| 17:19.21 | brailsmt | when bram implements to autosave capability in the todo list, I will be a happy camper |
| 17:19.46 | Jayce^ | I write a lot, but it's pretty quick.. |
| 17:19.49 | Bradipo | Any of you have satellite radio? |
| 17:20.16 | brailsmt | and the frequency with which i save was one of the main reasons why i mapped <esc> to the caps lock key... |
| 17:21.00 | Jayce^ | Bradipo: no, my trucks player is XM-ready.. but I'm not bothering to get the part.. |
| 17:21.03 | hans | brailsmt: what's wrong with recovery? how is that different from autosave (i see how autosave differs but the functionality...) |
| 17:21.11 | Bradipo | What part? |
| 17:21.27 | Jayce^ | Bradipo: it requires a receiver.. |
| 17:21.35 | Bradipo | Ahh, which you don't have. |
| 17:21.38 | Bradipo | How much is the receiver? |
| 17:22.08 | Jayce^ | not sure exactly.. |
| 17:22.24 | Jayce^ | but not worth the hassle for me.. mp3 deck.. I'll never run out of my music |
| 17:22.29 | brailsmt | hans: i don't know, I don't pay much attention to recovery since I don't need them since I save so muc... |
| 17:22.33 | Jayce^ | except when I'm too lazy to rip to mp3 also.. |
| 17:23.23 | hans | the only time i've ever lost more than a few minutes of work in vim is when I delete the recovery file prematurely. :) |
| 17:24.09 | brailsmt | <esc>:w<cr> is extremely fast so it doesn't slow me down... |
| 17:24.40 | hans | shrug - 4 keystrokes seems like a lot to me to be pressing every 20 seconds |
| 17:24.45 | brailsmt | and with escape mapped to caps lock my hands don't even move... |
| 17:25.43 | brailsmt | it isn't everytime, but i would say that i save a lot more often than other people... |
| 17:27.02 | brailsmt | ...everytime i leave insert... is what i meant |
| 17:30.03 | levi | I just hit ^[ instead of escape |
| 17:31.21 | levi | If a satellite radio system picked up SomaFM's stations, I'd be all over it. |
| 17:34.17 | brailsmt | here's a neat audio innovation while on the subject of radio... |
| 17:34.40 | brailsmt | 11:22 <@Jayce^> but not worth the hassle for me.. mp3 deck.. I'll never run out of my music |
| 17:34.49 | brailsmt | http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?class=nettune&m=TX-NR900&p=i |
| 17:34.53 | brailsmt | dangit... |
| 17:35.21 | brailsmt | the url is what i meant to paste... |
| 17:35.46 | Jayce^ | lol |
| 17:36.42 | levi | That's cool, but I wouldn't want to pay a bazillion bucks to play a 128kbit (at most) audio stream through a high dollar stereo. |
| 17:37.05 | brailsmt | you get more than just the ability to play streaming music... |
| 17:37.24 | brailsmt | and i would pay a bzillion bucks for that receiver... |
| 17:37.41 | brailsmt | i like onkyo, i have an onkyo receiver and dvd player |
| 17:38.10 | levi | Well, if it's priced competitively with other receivers that don't have that feature, it'd be worth it. |
| 17:38.40 | brailsmt | i am certain it would be at least $800+ |
| 17:39.01 | brailsmt | but it is high end audio, and worth it... |
| 17:39.02 | levi | But if that particular feature adds a huge amount... I'll pass. There are nifty add-on gadgets you could use to get your mp3s and mp3 streams into your stereo. |
| 17:41.56 | brailsmt | http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=TX-SR501&class=receivers&p=i -- that is my current receiver, its their low end but very nice still the same |
| 17:42.20 | levi | High end audio stuff isn't worth the $$s for me. |
| 17:43.46 | brailsmt | :) |
| 17:44.33 | brailsmt | my dad once offered to trade me my receiver for his plus $100 bucks, i refused... :) my mom just rolled her eyes |
| 17:44.43 | TheSeige | yo |
| 17:45.34 | TheSeige | im in provo |
| 17:46.15 | brailsmt | i once went to ultimate electronics and looked at their high end stuff, drooling over the $10,000 carver amps, $5000 a piece polk audio speakers and $25,000 projection system... |
| 17:46.21 | hans | welcome seige |
| 17:46.30 | levi | Oh, I'll drool over the stuff. I just won't buy it. |
| 17:46.31 | brailsmt | knowing i would probably never own a single one of those things... :( |
| 17:46.55 | TheSeige | im happy with my dennon, it does the job |
| 17:47.07 | brailsmt | dennon is a good brand |
| 17:47.25 | TheSeige | i like it |
| 17:47.43 | brailsmt | dennon is a cut above a lot of other brands |
| 17:48.05 | TheSeige | yeah |
| 17:48.19 | brailsmt | i'll take my onkyo instead :) |
| 17:48.20 | levi | I have some refurbished JVC receiver and a cheap set of used surround speakers hooked up to my TV. There's no point in going for expensive stuff in the room it's set up in. |
| 17:48.51 | TheSeige | ive got a nice 5.1 with dennon and a lcd projector, in my bedroom |
| 17:49.06 | brailsmt | i was going to 2000 on a pair of polk audio speakers before i got laid off in 2001... |
| 17:49.24 | brailsmt | that would have been nice... |
| 17:49.26 | levi | I spent my toy money on my car and bicycles. |
| 17:49.42 | TheSeige | suck, ive been thinknin about gettin DVD in my car |
| 17:49.43 | brailsmt | my toy money goes to bikes and stereos :) |
| 17:50.18 | TheSeige | soon as im out of school ill have some money to play with |
| 17:50.32 | levi | I was driving around last night with my top down and passed some dude in a lifted Jeep Cherokee. He caught up to me at a light and guys were leaning out saying, "Dude, do you have nawwwwwsss?" |
| 17:53.07 | brailsmt | my next bit of 'play' money was used up for a deductible when an uninsured driver without a license hit us with a car that had the wrong plates... |
| 17:53.54 | brailsmt | nawwwsss? |
| 17:53.56 | Jayce^ | ouch |
| 17:54.04 | TheSeige | my 4000k plus tax return went to my car |
| 17:54.33 | hans | my <$100 play money went to a dvd player |
| 17:54.35 | brailsmt | mine went to upgrading the rear shock of my bike and getting front disc brakes on my bike :) |
| 17:55.03 | TheSeige | ouch |
| 17:55.05 | brailsmt | OUCH! |
| 17:55.15 | Jayce^ | that's what happens when you don't pay all year :) |
| 17:55.26 | brailsmt | i would rather owe then get a refund... |
| 17:55.28 | Jayce^ | I woulda been fine, except for the self employment tax.. |
| 17:55.31 | brailsmt | but not owe 5k |
| 17:55.32 | levi | Nawwwwsss = how they say nitrous in the Fast and the Furious |
| 17:55.45 | Jayce^ | now i have an llc.. and things are better |
| 17:55.48 | brailsmt | oh, i just saw that on sat |
| 17:56.12 | brailsmt | the action was good, but te story was a little contrived... |
| 17:57.37 | Jayce^ | and now 2fast 2furious is coming out |
| 17:58.27 | TheSeige | they got a lancer in it, and thats what i drive, tons of kids are gunna be ricing it out |
| 17:59.32 | levi | Ricing it, or just buying the Evo. |
| 17:59.49 | levi | I installed a turbo in my Miata. That was fun. |
| 18:00.03 | TheSeige | evo = too expensive |
| 18:00.11 | TheSeige | they will get the lancer im guessin |
| 18:00.18 | brailsmt | i installed new brake pads on my sentra, that was fun too... |
| 18:00.22 | brailsmt | ;) |
| 18:00.24 | Jayce^ | mitsubishi looks like they put a lot of money into this movie.. think they have a lot of spots in it.. |
| 18:00.43 | Jayce^ | they want the mod guys to start using it instead of accords.. |
| 18:00.43 | Jayce^ | etc |
| 18:01.07 | TheSeige | they actually didnt even use a EVO they just modded the oz rally |
| 18:02.14 | levi | Lots of companies are making factory-modded cars now. Neon SRT, WRX STI, and Evo all look like they were 'street tuned'. |
| 18:02.51 | levi | Oh, there's some Nissan Sentra that's got race seats in it, too. |
| 18:03.00 | TheSeige | thats true, the evo tho has been around foreverm this is like the EVO 8 |
| 18:03.42 | levi | The Toyota Corolla S is kinda funny. The only difference from the regular Corolla is the bodykit and wheels. No performance enhancements at all. |
| 18:04.09 | levi | TheSeige: It's the first Evo sold here, though, isn't it? |
| 18:04.22 | TheSeige | yeah it is, its big in australlia |
| 18:05.28 | TheSeige | its a sweet car |
| 18:05.52 | levi | Australia gets a turbo Miata from the dealer, too. |
| 18:06.20 | Jayce^ | wrx.... mmmmm |
| 18:06.21 | levi | I saw an Evo at the recent car show here, but I don't remember if it was a 7 or 8. |
| 18:06.37 | levi | It's certainly got a large intercooler. |
| 18:07.23 | TheSeige | wrx STI says its 300hp and 300 torque, but with AWD its gunna lose alot of toque coming off the chasis |
| 18:07.31 | levi | I need to upgrade my intercooler. Mine's tiny and gets heat soaked too quickly. |
| 18:07.52 | Jayce^ | yeah, but man, those suckers stick to the road so good |
| 18:08.34 | TheSeige | yeah my friend drove me around in his WRX it was nice, the STI has new headlights too, i hated the old ones |
| 18:08.40 | Jayce^ | I had the outback sport, just before they released the wrx.. those things are quite peppy, and with more than twice the HP, that's going to be nice.. |
| 18:09.08 | Jayce^ | I want a baja, but with their new 6cyl engine. |
| 18:09.22 | Jayce^ | the one in the LL bean edition outback |
| 18:10.47 | levi | Mmmm, lunch time. |
| 18:11.12 | TheSeige | yeah same here, plus i need to take a shower, ill bbl |
| 19:01.34 | levi | Geez, I leave and everyone stops talking. |
| 19:20.13 | *** join/#utah levi_ (~levi@dpc6682169066.direcpc.com) |
| 19:20.14 | brailsmt | thats better than being a conversation killer |
| 19:22.53 | levi | I suppose so. |
| 19:32.11 | Jayce^ | so, robert oldham will be presenting on PHP for plug this month |
| 19:37.41 | TheSeige | salad from wendys mmmm good |
| 19:38.46 | Jayce^ | I've heard those new ones are pretty good.. |
| 19:39.59 | TheSeige | mandarin chix is |
| 19:40.27 | Jayce^ | cool.. so TheSeige, do we know who you are really? or you just find us by chance? |
| 19:41.19 | TheSeige | um this was the server for irc help for my archos jukebox, so i came in here also too see whats up |
| 19:41.28 | Jayce^ | cool |
| 19:41.39 | TheSeige | yep |
| 19:41.42 | Jayce^ | you a linux / unix/ oss user? |
| 19:42.28 | TheSeige | ive taken some linux, but my box that i was gunna have linux on isnt finsihed, so im in XP right now |
| 19:42.54 | Jayce^ | you a member of any of the local linux groups? (Plug or UUG) |
| 19:45.26 | TheSeige | nah, i wish, lifes hetic for me, with school and work |
| 19:46.29 | Jayce^ | so, join the list, and life get's easier :) |
| 19:46.41 | Jayce^ | (then I get you to present on something) :D |
| 19:47.45 | TheSeige | screw that ;) |
| 19:47.55 | hans | TheSeige: don't be too quick to turn it down |
| 19:48.04 | hans | sometimes he can line you up with free books in return :) |
| 19:49.05 | TheSeige | no really tho, i did plan on joinin probably after summer |
| 19:49.13 | Jayce^ | how's that vim one been for you hans? |
| 19:49.26 | hans | handy |
| 19:50.13 | TheSeige | ive setup a samba server |
| 19:53.38 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@cyanide.cs.byu.edu) |
| 19:53.45 | emcnabb | hello hax0rs |
| 19:53.51 | Jayce^ | 'bout time hoser |
| 19:53.55 | emcnabb | haha |
| 19:54.04 | hans | look who's come to dinner |
| 19:54.11 | emcnabb | what's for dinner? |
| 19:54.25 | emcnabb | I actually just had some KFC |
| 19:57.16 | *** join/#utah byron (~byron@128.187.168.143) |
| 19:57.28 | hans | wow, is there some party I wasn't aware of? |
| 19:57.45 | byron | we're celebrating your entry in the vim changelog |
| 19:58.50 | Jayce^ | byron too, wow.. |
| 19:59.28 | emcnabb | it's a party whenever byronious is around |
| 20:01.52 | emcnabb | is this where I get free wareZ? isn't that what IRC is all about? |
| 20:02.11 | emcnabb | free as in freedom or beer |
| 20:02.32 | Jayce^ | beer? in #utah? |
| 20:02.52 | hans | ~lart emcnabb and a free lart |
| 20:04.19 | levi | how about free root beer? |
| 20:04.39 | Jayce^ | a whole server system, and a desktop, and a ... |
| 20:05.50 | emcnabb | :-) |
| 20:06.00 | byron | and we'll give you a free copy of the best editor around |
| 20:06.40 | byron | emacs |
| 20:06.47 | hans | ~lart byron |
| 20:07.01 | Jayce^ | time to ddos byron |
| 20:07.02 | hans | ooh, your mojo. sorry, dude. |
| 20:07.19 | Jayce^ | nah, he dont' need that, at least for another month or so :) |
| 20:07.36 | byron | well i guess that wasn't a good *anything* else... ummm... anyone played kolf yet? |
| 20:07.36 | emcnabb | I hear emacs has great ruby support ;-) |
| 20:07.42 | Jayce^ | kolf? kde golf? |
| 20:08.11 | byron | yep, kde mini golf |
| 20:08.15 | Jayce^ | I remember reading about that one.. |
| 20:08.16 | byron | it's pretty fun |
| 20:08.28 | Jayce^ | been having fun this week with enemy territory |
| 20:10.02 | byron | ahhh, is that one of those modern games that require a new-fangled 3d card? |
| 20:11.30 | Jayce^ | oh yeah.. |
| 20:11.48 | Jayce^ | ~lart byu students who don't have 3-d systems |
| 20:11.52 | *** join/#utah TheSeige (~Seige@208.187.113.29) |
| 20:12.11 | Jayce^ | byron: yeah, it wont' run on your hpux turned linux box |
| 20:12.34 | TheSeige | anyone running a htpc? |
| 20:13.37 | Jayce^ | nope |
| 20:13.56 | *** join/#utah brailsmt (~michael@byu176783wks.rn.byu.edu) |
| 20:13.57 | byron | wow, those look pretty cool |
| 20:22.40 | Jayce^ | those? |
| 20:25.24 | byron | the htpc, i just looked it up on google |
| 20:26.35 | Jayce^ | yeah, I've been thinking of making one, but lack the money by a long shot |
| 20:36.12 | emcnabb | byron just said he doesn't like ranch dressing with pizza |
| 20:36.14 | emcnabb | :-( |
| 20:36.23 | emcnabb | can we still be friends? |
| 20:36.27 | Jayce^ | depends on the type of pizza |
| 20:36.32 | emcnabb | any... |
| 20:36.39 | Jayce^ | freak |
| 20:37.04 | Jayce^ | now there is a topic for discussion.. favorite pizza (company, and types) |
| 20:37.14 | byron | good, someone else thinks evan's eating habits are gross |
| 20:37.30 | Jayce^ | papa [johns|murphys], or pizza hut |
| 20:37.44 | byron | i'll go with papa johns |
| 20:38.02 | Jayce^ | meat lovers || |
| 20:39.02 | Jayce^ | ++ that is |
| 20:39.17 | emcnabb | definately papa johns |
| 20:39.21 | emcnabb | um.... |
| 20:39.30 | emcnabb | with that garlic grease |
| 20:39.33 | emcnabb | yum! |
| 20:39.40 | Jayce^ | pizza hut lunch buffet... man that stuff is good.. |
| 20:39.47 | Jayce^ | oh yeah, gotta have the garlic grease |
| 20:39.51 | emcnabb | ok, I'm getting hungry again |
| 20:40.21 | Jayce^ | I'm upset.. the only place that delivers out here right now is dominos, and little ceasers bought the pizza rights for the shopping place they just opened close.. |
| 20:40.30 | Jayce^ | neither of those rank among my preferred places.. |
| 21:29.33 | *** join/#utah bonez39 (~Bonez@206.71.67.22) |
| 21:30.35 | neybar | me neither |
| 21:30.45 | Jayce^ | mmmm.. pizza |
| 21:30.51 | neybar | little sleazers is an amazingly appropriate nickname |
| 21:49.37 | Jayce^ | oh neybar, friends found an indoor place in sandy.. $20 a year fee, like $5 to play.. includes rentals.. paint is pretty inexpensive.. $25 for 500 |
| 21:52.13 | neybar | cool |
| 22:21.11 | *** join/#utah brailsmt (~michael@12-254-250-249.client.attbi.com) |
| 23:05.54 | Jayce^ | wow, chuck took that reply a little personally... |
| 23:06.03 | Jayce^ | guess he won't be sticking around with the list much.. |
| 23:26.03 | *** join/#utah hans (~fugalh@128.187.242.99) |
| 23:26.48 | hans | Creating the world with Emacs: M-x let-there-be-light |
| 23:26.48 | hans | Creating the world with Vim: :make world |
| 23:29.04 | Jayce^ | lol |