irclog2html for #utah on 20030306

00:25.23TimRikernope
00:28.04kryptikhan_solo: Brailsmt was looking for you earlier today.
02:45.30*** join/#utah Bradipo_ (bradipo@sicilia.bradipo.org)
03:37.57*** join/#utah jayce (~jayce@65.204.214.20)
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04:08.24*** join/#utah hans (fugalh@209.210.58.42)
04:11.29hanswoohoo
04:11.37Bradipo_Yeehaw.
04:12.02Bradipo_Cool.
04:32.24MecworksHow does one go about regestering their nick?
04:32.53Bradipo_With NickServ
04:32.59Bradipo_Send /msg NickServ HELP
04:33.46Mecworksic
04:33.54Mecworksthx
04:34.43*** join/#utah Bradipo_ (~andyb@piedra.caldera.com)
04:42.07jaycewierd.. says my pwd is wrong for nickserv.. I've been using the same one with 'him' for quire a while..
04:42.24BradipoHeh.
04:47.08Jayce^d'oh... dumb problem..
04:53.18BradipoHeh.
04:53.29BradipoThat will do it.
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13:50.28hansbrailsmt: are you alive?
14:06.07*** join/#utah hans (fugalh@209.210.58.42)
15:01.39Jayce^hans: you ever use the project plugin for vim?
15:01.53hansno
15:02.02hanswhich one is that? one of those ide plugins?
15:04.31Jayce^http://vim.sourceforge.net/scripts/script.php?script_id=69
15:09.21*** join/#utah hans (fugalh@209.210.58.42)
15:10.09Jayce^http://vim.sourceforge.net/scripts/script.php?script_id=69
15:23.44*** join/#utah fugalh (fugalh@andreas.fugal.net)
15:24.06fugalhif a library is compiled with 3.2 do I have to compile with 3.2 to link to it?
15:27.12Jayce^yeah, I'm pretty sure..
15:27.25Jayce^abi changed from 3.1/2.* et al
15:27.48Jayce^ok, that project manager is pretty nifty..
15:36.24fugalhwhat does it do?
15:38.33Jayce^explorer-ish window on the side.. you create project groups, with their path and special flags, as well as links to each file (scp/ftp allowed).. clicking/enter opens the file into the other window..
15:39.01Jayce^allows you to do sub groups also, as well as map extra commands (I need to figure this out still, to map cvs commands)
15:39.43Jayce^hrmm... what's the hot key for jumping between vim windows?
15:47.19*** join/#utah jalance (~jalance@dsl233.sisna.com)
15:47.40fugalhc-w
15:47.52fugalhc-w [hjkl]
15:47.55fugalhwidgets.cpp:1945: choosing `double pow(double, double)' over `float
15:47.55fugalh<PROTECTED>
15:47.55fugalhwidgets.cpp:1945:   because worst conversion for the former is better than
15:47.55fugalh<PROTECTED>
15:48.23fugalhI can't figure out how to fix this
15:49.27Jayce^c-w?
15:49.49Jayce^ahh ctrl..
15:57.48CosmicPenguinfugalh: try ::pow on the appropriate line
16:03.24fugalhCosmicPenguin: I tried that. no change
16:04.40CosmicPenguinfugalh: doh
16:04.49CosmicPenguinfugalh: are you using other STL libraries by chance?
16:04.51fugalhwell, i thought I did.
16:05.13fugalhbut this time (i had undone changes) it got rid of it on one line. Now I'll try it throughout
16:06.14fugalhheh
16:07.29fugalhmust be your cosmic powers
16:07.41CosmicPenguinfugalh: just don't breath on it - it might change again
16:08.55fugalhyeah no kidding. especially considering the source of the code
16:09.32fugalhit's csound code - there was never a more wretched hive of scum and villainry in unix
16:43.07*** join/#utah TimRiker (timr@rikers.org)
16:43.07*** mode/#Utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ
17:04.22MecworksTimRiker: Hey...
17:06.16MecworksTimRiker: I'm seeing 25dB gain using quarter-wave ground plane antennas on both the AP and the client side.  I'll be doing some range testing today or tomarow.
17:38.41BradipoSo, have any of you ever seen ``ping -R'' and ``traceroute'' take different routes?
17:40.57CosmicPenguinSure
17:41.20CosmicPenguinThus the beauty of a routed network... :)
17:50.54BradipoCosmicPenguin: You have seen that?
17:51.06BradipoCan you explain to me why they would differ?
17:51.15BradipoI just had that happen on one of our servers.
17:51.41Bradipotraceroute showed one route (the incorrect route), but ping -R went another (correct route).
17:51.50BradipoAnd we aren't running routed
17:51.53Jayce^Bradipo: is it using rip? or the router at the break point?
17:52.07BradipoNope.
17:52.11BradipoNo RIP.
17:52.57BradipoFrom the same host, packets go in two different directions...
17:53.03CosmicPenguinBradipo: so the traceroute ended up wrong?
17:53.09BradipoYeah.
17:53.25BradipoAs if it uses a different routing table than the rest of the OS.
17:53.58CosmicPenguinWhat happens if you traceroute other addreses on that same subnet?  They all go the same place?
17:54.14BradipoThat's where it gets even more odd.
17:54.39Bradipotraceroute to 192.168.253.73 goes to the correct place, while traceroute to 192.168.253.74 does not.
17:54.43CosmicPenguinBradipo: that is weird - Its one thing for packets to take a different route to the destination, but its another thing for them to go to the wrong place
17:55.09BradipoMeaning that it takes the correct route.
17:55.16CosmicPenguinHmmm...  How about addresses > .74 ?  Are we talking a broken netmask?
17:55.27BradipoThe netmask is 255.255.255.248
17:55.35BradipoWhich covers 72-79
17:56.08BradipoBut that still doesn't explain why ping -R shows one route and traceroute shows another.
17:56.45BradipoIf you want, I can copy and paste the results of the ping and traceroute...
17:57.18BradipoIt's the weirdest thing I've ever seen.
17:57.23BradipoI think it's a bug in linux personally.
18:01.25CosmicPenguinTry this - do a manual traceroute
18:01.41CosmicPenguindo a series of pings, and increate the TLL once every time:
18:01.44CosmicPenguinping foo.com -t 1
18:01.47CosmicPenguinping foo.com -t 2
18:01.49CosmicPenguinping foo.com -t 3
18:01.49BradipoHmm, good call.
18:01.50CosmicPenguinetc...
18:02.15CosmicPenguinSee if that returns the same numbers as the traceroute
18:02.49BradipoHmm, won't work now---we restarted the interface and that cleared up the problem.
18:03.04BradipoHad to get the customer off the phone.
18:03.27MecworksOh great, change too many factors in your experiment... 8^)
18:03.39BradipoWell, that was our last resort.
18:03.46CosmicPenguinMaybe the router was reacting badly to a low TTL
18:03.47BradipoI didn't think it would fix the problem, but it did.
18:03.57BradipoWell, the packets never even hit the router.
18:04.03BradipoNot according to tcpdump.
18:04.11CosmicPenguinThey were going through another linux box then?
18:04.16BradipoSo the linux server must have had something goofed up in the routes.
18:04.20BradipoNo.
18:04.41BradipoI think linux has a bug with respect to routes and cached ICMP redirects or something.
18:05.02BradipoAnd possibly the interface that ping -R uses and what traceroute does.
18:05.42CosmicPenguinping and traceroute should be using the exact same mechanism
18:05.47BradipoThat's what I thought.
18:05.51BradipoBut apparently they don't.
18:06.18CosmicPenguinThats why I wanted you to try a poor man's traceroute with the ping and TTL - it would have told you immediately where the problems lie
18:06.30BradipoI proved this by using tcpdump on the router and on the box that it was routing to incorrectly.
18:06.32CosmicPenguinor at least, if there was a difference in the ping and traceroute implementation
18:06.41BradipoWell, there must be a difference.
18:06.53Bradipotcpdump on the router never revealed anything when doing a ping -R
18:07.24BradipoOr rather, the VPN router...
18:07.38BradipoBut when I did a traceroute, the packets would show up.
18:08.19BradipoIt's really odd, and I don't expect anyone to make sense of it---the only thing that does make sense is a bug in the kernel or something.
18:08.54CosmicPenguinI think it would have been seen before now
18:09.03CosmicPenguinUnless of course, you are using iptables - then all bets are off
18:09.20BradipoHmm.
18:09.26BradipoWell we are using iptables...
18:09.34BradipoBut not for any routing.
18:09.46CosmicPenguinNAt?
18:09.49BradipoNope.
18:10.06BradipoJust restricting access for certain IPs
18:10.10CosmicPenguinHmm... Ok, that kills that theory
18:10.38BradipoBut, restarting the interface cleaned up the problem.
18:11.06CosmicPenguinIf it happens again, see if ping <domain> -t N helps
18:11.16BradipoYeah.
18:11.22CosmicPenguinOr not help, but show where the packets are going
18:11.22BradipoI will do that.
18:11.31CosmicPenguinRouting - isn't it fun?
18:11.35BradipoYeah.
18:12.15BradipoHmm, ping on the server doesn't have a -t.
18:12.25CosmicPenguinEarlier, fugalh was saying that the csound code was the worst in Unixdom.. he was wrong - the worst code in Unixdom is the OSPF code
18:12.34CosmicPenguinwhat type of router is it?
18:12.46BradipoThe server isn't a router.
18:13.42BradipoBut it is linux.
18:14.04BradipoCaldera Server 3.1
18:15.06CosmicPenguinhehe... Caldera != Linux in my book
18:15.11CosmicPenguinNo offense to anyone here in particular
18:15.45BradipoNot offended by incorrect statements.
18:15.57BradipoJustify your statement...
18:16.47BradipoHow is Caldera OpenLinux any less Linux than Mandrake, RedHat, or any other flavor of Linux?
18:16.57CosmicPenguinstatement withdrawn
18:17.02BradipoHehe...
18:17.24CosmicPenguinNot that RedHat plays nice either, if thats what you mean
18:17.36BradipoNot necessarily.
18:17.40BradipoBut that would be a good point too.
18:18.04BradipoWhat I meant is that it has all the same linux tools that most other linux distros have.
18:18.13CosmicPenguinBut anyway, I thought that the LSB specified a -t param for ping, but I guess your version doesn't ahve it
18:18.30BradipoThat would be funny, considering our developers were on LSB.
18:18.54BradipoBut then again, this is an older version.
18:19.14BradipoInstalled almost 2 years ago.
18:20.11CosmicPenguinhmm.. ping isn't even in the LSB
18:20.16CosmicPenguinI guess its time that I shut up
18:32.00Jayce^Stuart is great: "There is no editor but Vim and Bram Moolenaar is its maintainer." on uug...
18:34.08brailsmtlol...  hans asked if i was alive at 6:45 AM...  the answer is a decided *NO*
18:47.15*** join/#utah hans (fugalh@209.210.58.42)
18:47.46Jayce^speak of the devil
18:49.56hanswhat can i do for ya?
18:52.42BradipoHow do you pronounce Ouagadougou?
18:53.00Jayce^just like it's spelled :)
18:53.02BradipoBy the way, this is where .bf is: http://www.iana.org/root-whois/bf.htm
18:53.17BradipoYeah, I tried to pronounce it like it is spelled, it's a phonetic nightmare. :-)
18:55.37brailsmt11:27 < brailsmt> lol...  hans asked if i was alive at 6:45 AM...  the answer is a decided *NO*
18:55.44brailsmt:)
18:56.05BradipoHmm, is there an echo in here? :-)
18:56.06hans:)
18:56.20hansbrailsmt: kryptik tells me you were looking for me yesterday
18:57.15brailsmtoh yeah, i wasn't sure if we could take a page of notes into the 460 test or not...
18:57.33hanswhat's up with michaelangelo on google today?
18:57.41brailsmti was gonna ask you, then i read my notes and it said i could
18:57.50brailsmthans: it was there yesterday too
18:57.50hans:) yes, you could. hope you did
18:58.08brailsmthans: yes, i did, but everything i didn't put on it was on the test...  :(
18:58.30brailsmtthat was one of those tests where everything i didn't study was tested
18:58.48hansouch
18:58.50brailsmtnot really everything, but it sure seemed like it...
19:01.58brailsmtof course it didn't help any that i skipped class a few times
19:02.37hanskind of like my being hungry because I have thus far skipped lunch
19:03.13brailsmthans: i saw you in the testing center though  :)
19:05.31hansi saw someone else from class - her page of notes was crammed FULL - I mean like 3 point fonts
19:05.46hansI couldn't figure out that much stuff to put on my page of notes if I tried.
19:07.07brailsmti kept mine to one page front side only hand written, since that was what was on my notes...
19:07.48brailsmti love shift-k in vim  :)
19:08.40Jayce^or even better, to do a perldoc search
19:12.20hanshers was handwritten, just puny
19:12.28hansI had one sparsely populated front side of a page
19:13.57brailsmthans: my note pages are usually sparse when i understand the material well...
19:14.18brailsmtie, in 345 i wrote like 4 things on the note paper, and then didn't bother taking it with me  :)
19:17.27brailsmtnetworking just befuddles me...
19:32.40*** join/#utah hans (fugalh@andreas.fugal.net)
20:36.32*** join/#utah kryptik (kryptik@208.187.113.100)
20:45.27TimRikerMecworks: 25db!?! awesome.
20:46.06TimRikerthat should double the range and maybe even more.
20:46.22TimRikerdid you have to do some antenna tweaks to get there?
20:46.48Mecworksnope. Just use the right connectors.... 8^)
20:47.48Mecworkswent from -70 or so to abouts -45 after placing antennas on both sides.
20:48.42Mecworksand these are unity gain antennas.  I can easily get up to 12 or even 19 dB gain with a better antenna.
20:50.57Mecworks(that should be "additional gain")...
21:11.56hanscan y'all do me a favor? hit http://www.fugal.net/ and tell me if you have any trouble? (especially dns trouble)
21:12.38Jayce^comes up fine
21:14.26hanshrmm. wonder why my Aunt can't get to it
21:14.34hans"I type in www.fugal.net and it never comes up. Always says can't find the
21:14.34hansserver or whatever that message is when it can't find the page. I've tried
21:14.34hansit at home and work; same result. Tried it again just now.
21:14.34hans"
21:14.42hansfor a couple of weeks now.
21:21.42*** join/#utah Jayce^ (~jayce@65.204.214.20)
21:28.09kryptikHans: you are a ruby coder, am I right?
21:28.13hansI are
21:28.22kryptikDo you do any gui programming?
21:28.30hansbeen meaning to, but not yet
21:28.33kryptikAhh ok.
21:28.55hansguis and I are... not bosom buddies
21:29.24kryptikI am writing a tutorial on ruby/tk.. if you would like, I could send it your way when finished.
21:29.50Jayce^you should try qt
21:30.16kryptikYea yea. FXruby is next.. theres a line :)
21:30.20hansthe qt bindings for ruby aren't really mature though. I think most ruby coders prefer Fox
21:30.57hansbut qt is by far my favorite gui toolkit thus far
21:30.57Jayce^the guy who's making perlQT has been using it's parts for rubyQT
21:31.49hansJayce^: can you say that from a different angle?
21:31.53kryptik# of ruby/qt documentation: 0
21:32.02kryptikHeh.
21:32.06kryptiktk is hard enough
21:33.39Jayce^different angle?
21:36.26kryptikHeh.
21:36.51kryptikin a world where everything is literal!
21:39.37hansi could be dense, but that sentence made no sense
21:40.37kryptikNah, your not dense.. it makes sense to me, but only cause I know what I mean.
21:52.00MecworksI hate the english system.  Why did'nt the USA _actualy_ trasition to the metric system years ago like they had planned...ugh!
21:52.28BradipoI agree.
21:52.36BradipoIt's so lame that we learn the metric system and never use it.
21:52.48BradipoI bought a scale to weigh my child and set it to metric.
21:53.10Mecworksafter living somewhere that they use the metric system, it's hard to rationalize using the english system again.
21:53.15Mecworksvery cool!
21:53.15BradipoI agree.
21:53.34BradipoMetric is clearly better and easier to use once you know it.
21:54.02MecworksI end up giving directions in kms occationaly and always measure for projects in metric when possible.
21:54.12Mecworksagreed.
21:54.23hanskryptik: not your sentence, jayce's
21:54.28BradipoI think I'll set my GPS to use metric when I get home tonight. :-)
21:54.34Mecworks8^)
21:54.53BradipoThe only thing I hate about metric is translating for people that don't have a clue.
21:55.29Mecworksyea.  ugh...how far is a km??? ...<sigh>
21:59.49TimRiker~convert 1km to inches
22:00.03Mecworkssaweet!
22:00.30Mecworks~convert 5280ft to miles
22:00.40Mecworks~convert 5280ft to inches
22:00.51Mecworks~convert 5280ft to centimeters
22:01.01Mecworks~convert 5280ft to milimeters
22:01.07Mecworks~convert 5280ft to millimeters
22:01.17Mecworks~convert 5280ft to deciimeters
22:01.25Mecworkshmmm
22:01.38TimRiker~spell decimeters
22:01.39'decimeters' may be spelled correctly
22:01.46Mecworks~convert 5280ft to pandoras box lengths
22:01.59TimRikerconvert 1 mile to cubits
22:02.05TimRiker~convert 1 mile to cubits
22:02.40TimRikerconvert 1 gallon to cubic cubits
22:02.46TimRiker~convert 1 gallon to cubic cubits
22:02.48Mecworksdoes it handle other units?
22:02.54TimRikerheh.
22:03.01TimRiker~convert 1 gallon to cubits cubed
22:03.03Mecworkswatts?  Amps?
22:03.21TimRikerconvert 1 horsepower to watts
22:03.24TimRiker~convert 1 horsepower to watts
22:03.31Mecworkssaweet!
22:05.45Mecworksis there a manual for the convert funcion?
22:05.58Mecworksor more info somewhere?
22:06.02CosmicPenguin~convert 3 hogsaws to ramrods
22:06.19CosmicPenguinWow - ibot does not have a sense of humor
22:06.28Mecworks8^)
22:06.46kryptik;)
22:16.24MecworksWebster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]
22:16.25MecworksDecimeter \Dec"i*me`ter\, Decimetre \Dec"i*me`tre\, n. [F.
22:16.25Mecworks<PROTECTED>
22:16.25Mecworks<PROTECTED>
22:16.25Mecworks<PROTECTED>
22:16.25Mecworks<PROTECTED>
22:16.27Mecworks<PROTECTED>
22:16.29Mecworksdecimeter
22:16.31Mecworks<PROTECTED>
22:16.33Mecworks<PROTECTED>
22:17.24Mecworks~convert 5280ft to decimeters
22:17.32Mecworkssaweet!
22:17.45Mecworksspelling....hm
22:18.55kryptik~convert 5280ft to millimeters
22:19.04kryptik:)
22:19.22Mecworks~convert 100000000000000 angstroms to barleycorns
22:19.29Mecworks8^)
22:20.01MecworksFYI:  100000000000000 angstroms is about 1181055.863942 barleycorns
22:20.27kryptikWhoa!?
22:20.43kryptikYou have that memorized, or you did you just figure it out?
22:20.58kryptikCause your a nut if you have it memmed.
22:21.03MecworksI found a web site that does conversions... 8^)
22:21.16kryptikAhh.
22:21.40Mecworks~convert 1 mile to light years
22:21.43CosmicPenguinSomeone should stick in approximate spelling
22:22.06Mecworks~convert 1 mm to light years
22:22.33Mecworks~convert 1 meters to light years
22:23.07MecworksSo, my monitor is aproximately 1.05702e-16/2 light years from my eyes
22:23.29kryptikhttp://www.scene.org/redhound/AYB.swf
22:23.46MecworksHm...I wonder how many barleycorns away it is....brb
22:24.42Mecworksmy monitor is aproximately 59.052793 barleycorns from my eyeballs.
22:24.56CosmicPenguinmmm... barley
22:26.35Mecworksand it has a diaganal measurement of 62.99752 barleycorns
22:27.54Mecworks~convert 21 inches to ells
22:28.33CosmicPenguinSo a barleycorn is about 1.69 cm?
22:30.20Mecworksone barleycorn is 0.8467 cm
22:31.10CosmicPenguinOh, yeah
22:31.32CosmicPenguinNo, wait..
22:32.39Mecworksand 1 cm is 1.181056 barleycorns
22:33.10Mecworksof course, this is from http://www.digitaldutch.com/unitconverter/
22:37.00CosmicPenguinThats not right - if 1 m = 59.05 barleycorns
22:38.00MecworksOh, the distance from my monitor to my eyeballs is about .5 meeters.
22:38.04Mecworksmeters.
22:38.10CosmicPenguinOh
22:38.11CosmicPenguinI see
22:38.16Mecworksyes.
22:38.29CosmicPenguinWell then
22:38.33CosmicPenguinI stand corrected
22:38.35CosmicPenguinor something
22:38.42MecworksThe lightyear measurement for the screen to my eyeballs was devided in two.
22:39.01Mecworksbut again, all this talk of barleycorns is making me hungry.
22:39.54CosmicPenguinibot: receipe for barleycorn soup?
22:40.48TimRiker~convert 60 miles/hours to lightyears/megamillennium
22:41.40Mecworksnice!
22:42.01MecworksHere's something interesting:
22:42.02MecworksIn Edward I's reign (1272-1307) the yard (or Ulna) and its sub- and aggregated divisions were defined.
22:42.03Mecworks"It is remembered that the Iron Ulna of our Lord the King contains three feet and no more; and the foot must contain twelve inches, measured by the correct measure of this kind of ulna; that is to say, one thirty-sixth part [of] the said ulna makes one inch, neither more nor less.... It is ordained that three grains of barley, dry and round make an inch, twelve inches make a foot; three feet make an ulna; five and a half ulna makes a perch (rod);
22:42.03Mecworksand forty perches in length and four perches in breadth make an acre."
22:42.03MecworksCartoon: Barleycorns The perch or rod, as it was also known, was a traditional Saxon land measure and survives in twentieth century. It had originally been defined as the total length of the left feet of the first sixteen men to leave church on Sunday morning.
22:43.34MecworksSo, there should be three barleycorns in an inch.
22:44.45Mecworksalmost...aparently there are 2.999882 barleycorns/inch
22:45.01*** join/#utah milo (kryptik@208.187.113.33)
22:45.28Mecworkswhich is _exaclty_ why we should be using the netric system instead of inches, feet and barleycorns!
22:45.46Mecworkss/metric/netric/g
22:46.24CosmicPenguinlike the origins of the metrics system are any less screwy
22:46.45TimRiker~convert yards to barleycorns
22:47.03TimRiker~convert yards to barleycorns
22:47.10TimRikerthere. better?
22:48.18TimRiker~convert yards to barleycorns
22:48.53TimRikerconvert km/hour to barleycorns/second
22:48.59TimRiker~convert km/hour to barleycorns/second
22:49.48Mecworksactualy the metricsystem is based on some fairly sound funamentals.  one gram of water is the mass of one cubic centemeter of water.  One cubic centimeter of water is the ammount of water which will heat up 1 degree celcius when one calorie of heat is applied, etc.
22:50.23Mecworksthe whole metric system is tied together.  Pretty cool if you ask me...
22:51.43MecworksTimRiker: so did ibot not know what a barleycorn was?
22:51.50Mecworksand has since been trained?
22:51.56TimRikeryeah, I just taught him.
22:52.03Mecworkscool!  8^)
22:52.05CosmicPenguinAin't perl great?
22:52.14Mecworksdefinitely
22:52.59Mecworksabout as great as the metric system.
22:53.03Mecworks8^)
22:53.10CosmicPenguinbut a lot more flexable
22:54.44Mecworkswhich?  The metric system or perl?  8^)
23:08.40TimRiker~convert watt to calories/sec
23:18.07Mecworks~convert perl to sparc asm
23:18.16Mecworkshm
23:18.55MecworksTimRiker: I think you need to teach ibot more conversion factors...
23:27.11TimRikerheh.
23:27.30TimRiker~convert Mecworks to a sane individual with realistic goals
23:27.44TimRiker<ibot> Unknown unit `Mecworks'
23:28.54Mecworks8^)

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