| 14:53:54 | han_solo | raid reconstruction runs in the background, right? but it's sure slugging my system |
| 15:18:25 | CosmicPenguin | is away: Uh, oh.. the weasel got out again... |
| 15:18:27 | CosmicPenguin | is back (gone 00:00:02) |
| 16:43:58 | Jayce^ | http://hiro-tan.org/switch/ |
| 16:45:26 | CosmicPenguin | thats funny |
| 16:50:11 | Jayce^ | just sent that out to plug... hilarious |
| 17:08:00 | CosmicPenguin | The sylpheed-claws imap has gotten considerably faster lately |
| 17:10:28 | CosmicPenguin | and just as I say that, sylpheed goes into an infinate loop |
| 18:27:55 | bbeattie | BZFlag: do you know of any settop/embedded (Linux Capable) that has 3 pci slots? |
| 18:40:50 | CosmicPenguin | Thats alot of pci slots for an embedded.... |
| 19:09:11 | bbeattie | yes |
| 19:09:29 | bbeattie | ethernet, video and audio cards. |
| 19:11:01 | levi | Can't use onboard stuff? |
| 19:27:48 | bbeattie | levi: no, special networking/audio/video |
| 19:35:57 | levi | What are you planning? |
| 19:36:04 | CosmicPenguin | Not even the evaluation boards I have have that much PCI on them |
| 19:46:04 | BZFlag | bbeattie: nope. just mini-pc cases. |
| 19:50:22 | CosmicPenguin | The closest I've got is the Dorado, which has 1 Isa and two 5V PCI (so if you want to use a converter, you can only do 1 at a time) |
| 19:52:03 | bbeattie | hm |
| 19:52:55 | bbeattie | what's the fastest boot time that either of you have seen with Linux (with or without the linux bios project?) |
| 19:53:23 | bbeattie | network boot and HD boot. I just need a small box that boots fast and I can add some pci cards into (agp slot maybe) |
| 19:55:31 | levi | Linux BIOS makes for really, really fast boots. |
| 19:57:15 | bbeattie | what I'm looking for is basically a super terminal. video resolution of 1900x1200, gigabit, no possibility of data coruption, and audio (better than normal) |
| 19:58:31 | bbeattie | and no the lowest heat output possible. (running with off a 12/9 volt power transformer (car lighter).. and run Linux) |
| 19:58:45 | bbeattie | s/no// |
| 19:59:13 | bbeattie | wonders how odd these specs sound. :-) |
| 20:05:26 | Jayce^ | wishes he had one. |
| 20:09:59 | BZFlag | bbeattie: under 4 seconds. flash boot. |
| 20:11:05 | CosmicPenguin | Linux boot about 11 seconds, but we could have trimmed that |
| 20:11:09 | CosmicPenguin | sorry, LInuxBIOS boot |
| 20:17:09 | levi | bbeattie: The specs sound cool, but what purpose will it serve? |
| 20:21:45 | Jayce^ | bah.. who needs a purpose if it's cool? |
| 20:27:19 | bbeattie | BZFlag: ever hear of someone using flash in a mini pc like setup to shorten boot time? |
| 20:38:07 | bbeattie | levi: I'd like to see if I can stream hdtv from my PC with a HDTV card to a hdtv across the house. |
| 20:40:04 | CosmicPenguin | you should be able to do HDTV with less than a gigabit |
| 20:40:57 | CosmicPenguin | So what you are thinking is HDTV -> MPEG4 on your PC and then stream the MPEG4? |
| 20:41:04 | bbeattie | CosmicPenguin: a single (highest quality) HDTV signal is 32Mb/s and a bandwidth of 45Mb/s is recommended |
| 20:41:35 | bbeattie | CosmicPenguin: HDTV is mpeg2, not worth the CPU usage and quality loss to de-encode/re-encode. |
| 20:41:53 | CosmicPenguin | true... |
| 20:44:23 | bbeattie | 1920x1080x24 in 183byte packets, and it's doubled. |
| 20:45:21 | BZFlag | bbeattie: DiskOnChip is common for PC like systems. |
| 20:45:55 | BZFlag | bbeattie: but you still need a bios. on a PC the bios uses much more time than the kernel boot. |
| 20:46:41 | bbeattie | BZFlag: so a MB that is supported by the Linux Bios project and diskonchip should make for a fastest boot I'd think. |
| 20:47:07 | BZFlag | bbeattie: hmm. you are planning to not have a HD ? |
| 20:47:10 | CosmicPenguin | bbeattie: the networks stream MPEG2 HDTV at 19.6 MB/s |
| 20:47:16 | bbeattie | Next hurdle, finding a framebuffer that can support 1920x1080 resolution - I'm not sure if that's possible or if I'll have to run some sort of X server. |
| 20:47:23 | bbeattie | BZFlag: no HD, |
| 20:47:56 | BZFlag | well, I'm not a DOC fan, but I don't know of another decent flash solution for a PC. |
| 20:48:04 | bbeattie | CosmicPenguin: 100TX can only support about 11.7 MB/s sustained. |
| 20:48:44 | bbeattie | BZFlag: DOC's were always a pain I remember from my embedded days... |
| 20:48:52 | BZFlag | a pcmcia/cf card would work as well as the DOC I would think, as would a DiskOnModule but all of those have power cycle issues from time to time. |
| 20:49:01 | orbit | Anybody know of any vendors in Utah valley that stock SCSI drives? |
| 20:49:02 | bbeattie | poorly supported and not the easiest to program. |
| 20:49:36 | BZFlag | orbit: compusa used to. don't know if they still do. |
| 20:49:37 | bbeattie | orbit: try *icks* EBCcomputer |
| 20:50:02 | bbeattie | BZFlag: what sort of power cycle problems, I don't remember that issue. |
| 20:50:33 | BZFlag | bbeattie: well, an IDE to CF converter would be easy. if the fs is read only then power cycle issues would be small. |
| 20:50:56 | BZFlag | CF/DOC/DOM etc all have a bit of code in them that does wear leveling. |
| 20:51:06 | bbeattie | BZFlag: how is a power cycle issue resolved, reset the device? |
| 20:51:50 | BZFlag | the wear leveling code is unstable on any device I've heard of testing. so once in a long while if they are cycled during a write, the wear leveling table get's corrupt and you loose everything. |
| 20:51:56 | BZFlag | it's rare, but it does happen. |
| 20:52:28 | BZFlag | jffs2 handles it better than any other device I am aware of. |
| 20:52:53 | bbeattie | BZFlag: maybe a network boot is a better option then. Very little config, if any, is needed on the device. |
| 20:52:56 | BZFlag | but it requires direct access to the flash, and CF/DOC/DOM all hide the flash. |
| 20:53:11 | CosmicPenguin | bbeattie: oops, I meant 19.2 Mb/s |
| 20:53:34 | bbeattie | BZFlag: but if a write is rarly done, (only when updating config) is that problem almost none existant? |
| 20:53:43 | BZFlag | bbeattie: yes. |
| 20:54:04 | BZFlag | the danger is only power cycle during a write. |
| 20:54:13 | bbeattie | CosmicPenguin: what resolution? I don't think it could be a 1920x1080 resolution. |
| 20:55:51 | CosmicPenguin | If its an MPEG 2 stream, sure |
| 20:55:57 | CosmicPenguin | Not uncompressed though |
| 20:56:04 | CosmicPenguin | Uncompressed its something like 2 or 3 Gb/s |
| 21:00:52 | bbeattie | Maybe my math is incorrect :-), 2^20*8*11=98146713 (Max 100TX bandwith in bits) 1920*1080*24*30=1492992000, and mpeg2 encoding is about 10/1 video compression. but 149299200 is still > than 98146713 |
| 21:02:08 | bbeattie | then add 5/6 channels of audio data, and packet headers. |
| 21:05:06 | CosmicPenguin | ) 1920*1080*24*30=1492992000 is uncompressed |
| 21:05:19 | CosmicPenguin | oh, sorry |
| 21:05:37 | CosmicPenguin | didn't read |
| 21:08:51 | CosmicPenguin | I quote: In raw numbers, a compressed HDTV signal needs 19.2 megabits per second (mbps). By contrast, most SD signals currently take up about 3.5 mbps. |
| 21:08:51 | | 1492992000 |
| 21:08:51 | BZFlag | ibot 1920 * 1080 * 24 * 30 |
| 21:09:24 | | 92274688 |
| 21:09:24 | BZFlag | ibot 2 ** 20 * 8 * 11 |
| 21:10:09 | CosmicPenguin | I bet my job that you can run a HDTV stream through a 100 Mb/s pipe |
| 21:11:40 | BZFlag | thinks ibot is right on the 2 ** 20 * 8 * 11 |
| 21:15:07 | | 256 |
| 21:15:07 | CosmicPenguin | ibot: 2 ** 8 |
| 21:15:28 | | 92274688 |
| 21:15:28 | CosmicPenguin | ibot: (2 ** 20) * 88 |
| 21:15:33 | CosmicPenguin | Looks like he is to me |
| 21:49:20 | | 3744 |
| 21:49:20 | bbeattie | ibot 2 * 20 * 8 * 11.7 |
| 21:49:26 | | 98146713.6 |
| 21:49:26 | bbeattie | ibot 2 ** 20 * 8 * 11.7 |
| 21:49:34 | bbeattie | I dropped the .6 |
| 21:49:35 | | hmmm... 42 is the answer |
| 21:49:35 | Jayce^ | ibot: 42? |
| 21:51:30 | | ...but 42 is the answer... |
| 21:51:30 | fugalh | ibot, 42 is the answer to life, the universe, and everything |
| 21:51:30 | bbeattie | CosmicPenguin: for all the reading I have done, most people suggest > 32 MB/s. And that's from 3 sources, now if they all should have used a b instead of a B, then I may be wrong. :-) |
| 21:51:51 | | bbeattie: bugger all, i dunno |
| 21:51:51 | bbeattie | ibot: May I borrow your towel? |
| 21:51:55 | | okay, fugalh. |
| 21:51:55 | fugalh | ibot, 42 is also the answer to life, the universe, and everything |
| 21:51:59 | | 42 is, like, the answer or the answer to life, the universe, and everything |
| 21:51:59 | fugalh | ibot, 42? |
| 21:52:12 | | fugalh: my pleasure |
| 21:52:12 | fugalh | ibot, so long and thanks for all the fish |
| 21:52:19 | fugalh | :) |
| 21:53:23 | bbeattie | CosmicPenguin: If it is 19.2, then many, many of my troubles are over. But I havn't read that, and I don't have a 1920x1080 mpeg'd video stream to test with. :-) |
| 21:56:32 | CosmicPenguin | bbeattie: be careful there - I said that the networks will broadcast at that rate.. |
| 21:56:58 | CosmicPenguin | Not that all 1920x1080 video will stream at 19.2 Mb/s |
| 21:58:16 | levi | bbeattie: Do you get your HDTV through satellite or antenna? |
| 21:58:53 | bbeattie | CosmicPenguin: right. But there is a likely top of where bandwidth will reach, which is what I've been trying to narrow down for "worst case". |
| 21:59:03 | bbeattie | levi: neither yet, but will be antenna. |
| 21:59:49 | CosmicPenguin | bbeattie: well, eventually, you'll have to start converting it to MPEG4 or H.263 |
| 21:59:51 | levi | bbeattie: How much have you researched the antenna thing? Does it require an outdoor antenna or will a regular indoor one? |
| 22:00:41 | bbeattie | CosmicPenguin: It will always be mpeg2, that's what the HDTV standard is. And switching to mpeg4 is not worth the CPU and quality loss. |
| 22:01:52 | bbeattie | levi: HDTV signals are not quite as strong for penetrating buildings. A an antenna in an atic will work fine, but not in a basement. Also, HDTV signal begins to degrade after 15 feet. |
| 22:02:37 | bbeattie | max transmission of any signal for HDTV is 150 feet on "average" coax. |
| 22:03:22 | levi | So it helps to have an outdoor antenna that's close to the TV. |
| 22:03:28 | CosmicPenguin | bbeattie: In the next few years, you will start seeing STBs that do that in hardware |
| 22:03:55 | levi | It'd be lame to buy a receiver and antenna and not be able to pick anything up. :/ |
| 22:04:00 | bbeattie | CosmicPenguin: can you define "do that"? |
| 22:04:44 | bbeattie | levi: At SLLUG this last summer we (for 1 second) picked up a HDTV signal inside Unysis that was probably shielded using a coke can. :-) |
| 22:05:39 | bbeattie | The person doing the demonstration used a coke can just fine at work to pick up HD signal, inside a building when "aimed" properly.. sooo... |
| 22:05:40 | CosmicPenguin | decode HDTV and reencode it as MPEG4 / H.263 |
| 22:05:49 | levi | So you're saying I ought to be able to pick up some channels? |
| 22:06:17 | bbeattie | levi: If you have a HDTV tuner, a coke can could work. |
| 22:06:22 | bbeattie | could though, |
| 22:07:11 | bbeattie | CosmicPenguin: Are you famliar with the problems inherent in de-coding and re-encoding any lossless codec? |
| 22:07:21 | levi | Hmm. Another thing to buy.... |
| 22:08:04 | CosmicPenguin | bbeattie: sure... but in this case you are doing something akin to playing a mp3 on your stereo, rerecording it, and then encoding as an ogg |
| 22:08:12 | bbeattie | levi: and 4 or so feet of regular 75ohm(I think) coax cable.. what you have in your house now. |
| 22:10:59 | BZFlag | got a brain to spare? http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?BZFlag |
| 22:11:40 | bbeattie | CosmicPenguin: Another issue besides loss in quality, is the time to encode. You have to do hardware encoding for a divx stream of that size most likely. decoding isn't quite as bad, but if I want an embedded system (maybe an xscale or something) it can handle mpeg2 a lot easier than mpeg4. These are all tradeoffs, re-encoding could work, but I don't like it's tradeoffs. |
| 22:12:52 | CosmicPenguin | bbeattie: thats why everybody uses a hardware based solution for MPEG anyway |
| 23:12:31 | han_solo | I'm looking at afterstep for the first time. |
| 23:13:28 | han_solo | some slick things that are cooler than windowmaker |
| 23:15:36 | han_solo | namely the pager thing and the sliding dockapps |
| 23:27:24 | CosmicPenguin | pagers rule |
| 23:27:29 | CosmicPenguin | I use FVWM, and thats my favorite feature |
| 23:27:36 | han_solo | i haven't until now seen a pager I like |
| 23:27:53 | han_solo | well, you're right - I like fvwm's pager. just can't stand the wm |
| 23:28:05 | CosmicPenguin | what don't you like about it |
| 23:28:08 | CosmicPenguin | is curious |
| 23:28:57 | han_solo | I don't ask much by the way of style, but fvwm just rubs me the wrong way. I haven't used it extensively but iirc some of my favorite features weren't there |
| 23:30:11 | han_solo | but, in the interest of open-mindedness I'll try it again. what should I look for as positive things? |
| 23:30:14 | han_solo | i.e. what do you love about it (aside from the pager) |
| 23:31:52 | CosmicPenguin | I love that its completely configurable, so with enough blood, sweat and tears, I can get it to do what I want |
| 23:32:14 | CosmicPenguin | It is difficult to configure, but there is a package called fvwm-themes that makes life a little easier |
| 23:32:31 | han_solo | :) I usually like that, but times like now I like a WM that I can configure to do what I want w/o blood sweat and tears. I'm addicted to configuring and don't have the time |
| 23:33:05 | CosmicPenguin | Not only does it provide some preconfigured themes, but it divides the configuration up into sections that makes it much easier to configure - plus there are lots of examples to look at |
| 23:33:49 | CosmicPenguin | The new 2.5 version also introduces fun stuff like transparency, PNG support and other modern WMish stuff |
| 23:36:41 | CosmicPenguin | This is my current screen: http://cosmic.censoft.com/sshot.png |
| 23:38:10 | han_solo | standard questions: quick launch? menu on the root with a click? slot and/or dock? |
| 23:38:57 | CosmicPenguin | menu on the root with a click, definately |
| 23:39:41 | han_solo | i'm sure with fvwm you can do most things with the keyboard, right? how about launch something with a keystroke? (I use meta-t for popping up terminals, which I do at least once every 5 minutes) |
| 23:39:44 | CosmicPenguin | It depends on what you mean by quick launch - you can configure a key stroke to launch an app, but I prefer gkrellm to to launch my stuff |
| 23:39:55 | CosmicPenguin | Yeah, thats definately easy |
| 23:40:03 | han_solo | gkrellm? |
| 23:40:16 | CosmicPenguin | gkrellm is my only "can't live without" app |
| 23:40:19 | han_solo | hmm. I might be able to live with launching via gkrellm |
| 23:40:26 | han_solo | though i've never seen that |
| 23:40:49 | han_solo | I have a small set of things I launch frequently and I do not want to navigate menus or even pop up a menu. one click or I'm frustrated |
| 23:41:09 | CosmicPenguin | In my screen shot, you can see my launch items |
| 23:41:23 | CosmicPenguin | I am the same way, though I have terminal bound to a ctrl-alt-z |
| 23:42:15 | han_solo | how configurable are the title bars? |
| 23:43:36 | CosmicPenguin | Completely... you can change the width of the border, the title size, style, font, everything |
| 23:44:25 | han_solo | buttons? mostly I like the windowmaker style - minimize on left, double-click bar to shade, close on right |
| 23:45:38 | han_solo | no superfluous buttons |
| 23:46:46 | CosmicPenguin | Like I said, it can get intense to configure it, but with a little effort, you can have everything like you want it |
| 23:49:09 | han_solo | I'll look at it, but replacing windowmaker is a high order |
| 23:49:14 | han_solo | :) |
| 23:49:28 | han_solo | it would take all I like about windowmaker and a killer app, or a super-killer app |
| 23:49:42 | CosmicPenguin | its not a decision to enter into lightly |
| 23:50:17 | han_solo | i used to switch wm's almost weekly, but I was younger then. :) |
| 23:51:06 | CosmicPenguin | heh... FVWM can have up to 10 different buttons on the titlebar |
| 23:51:38 | han_solo | are there that many things to do to a titlebar? |
