| 00:28:44 | bbeattie | Mecworks: Are you around tonight? |
| 00:39:03 | Mecworks | I |
| 00:39:06 | Mecworks | Im here |
| 00:40:07 | bbeattie | cool |
| 00:40:38 | bbeattie | I picked up a zaurus from linuxworld, I was wondering how garmin gps's connect to pda's/laptops, is it via serial? |
| 00:41:00 | bbeattie | garmen? (sp?) |
| 01:04:54 | BZFlag | yeah, serial, but he left. |
| 01:05:04 | BZFlag | Mecworks: no news yet, but I expect it soon. |
| 01:05:46 | BZFlag | the zaurus does not include a serial cable, so interfacing with a serial GPS is tough. |
| 01:06:13 | BZFlag | I have a cable ;-) but they are not sold in the US yet as far as I know. ask on #Zaurus. |
| 01:12:25 | Mecworks | BZFlag: Thanks for checking. |
| 01:12:48 | Mecworks | BZFlag: |
| 01:12:51 | Mecworks | oops... |
| 16:38:55 | han_solo | ponders starting a debate |
| 16:39:39 | Jayce^ | uh-oh |
| 16:39:44 | Jayce^ | what flavor today? |
| 16:40:07 | han_solo | i haven't thought of one yet. but yesterday was so much fun... |
| 16:40:29 | Jayce^ | true |
| 16:40:54 | Jayce^ | well, next month, plug will be discussing MTA's... that should be a fun one.. |
| 16:50:57 | han_solo | he goes to bed at weird times |
| 16:52:41 | Jayce^ | very strange |
| 16:53:48 | levi_ | I used to go to bed at strange hours like that. |
| 16:54:29 | Jayce^ | sleeping during the day can be tough.. |
| 16:54:40 | Jayce^ | especially if you don't have good blinds |
| 16:56:47 | levi_ | If you're tired enough, it's easy. |
| 16:57:05 | levi_ | Just don't sleep for more than a couple of hours at a time. |
| 18:47:06 | han_solo | http://vim.sourceforge.net/script.php?script_id=356 |
| 18:47:14 | han_solo | db_ext.vim : Provides database functionality. Currently MySQL and PostgreSQL are supported. |
| 18:48:53 | Jayce^ | looks |
| 18:49:16 | Jayce^ | oohh.. I need to learn how to use this sucker.. |
| 18:57:47 | Jayce^ | so how can/do you connect if it's an external db, or needs a username/pass? |
| 18:59:28 | han_solo | got me. I haven't tried it, just saw that on vim.sf.net |
| 18:59:49 | brailsmt | han_solo: only 2 d/l's seperate midnight.vim and desert.vim... |
| 18:59:51 | brailsmt | :) |
| 19:00:06 | han_solo | ponders rushing off to d/l desert.vim |
| 19:00:17 | Jayce^ | yeah, it looks great, but it looks like it expects to connect as the current user/current box |
| 19:01:19 | brailsmt | han_solo: but I can't shake a stick at desert.vim's rating... |
| 19:01:59 | han_solo | shakes a stick at midnight.vim |
| 19:02:02 | brailsmt | anyone have some suggestions for getting a good cheap laptop? |
| 19:02:18 | brailsmt | ie, where to go, what brand, etc... |
| 19:02:23 | han_solo | there's a place near novell |
| 19:02:46 | han_solo | don't remember what it's called, but has an 'ul' sound and a 'ix' sound |
| 19:02:48 | brailsmt | what's it called? |
| 19:02:56 | brailsmt | haha... |
| 19:03:03 | brailsmt | ultrix? |
| 19:03:09 | brailsmt | :) |
| 19:03:17 | han_solo | sells used laptops from corporates without os |
| 19:03:23 | han_solo | seems like it had more syllables |
| 19:03:24 | brailsmt | ooh... |
| 19:03:45 | brailsmt | you know the location? not necesarrily the address, but how to get there? |
| 19:03:57 | han_solo | no but I can find out. my dad got one there recently |
| 19:04:08 | brailsmt | yeah, that would be perfect |
| 19:04:25 | brailsmt | I am in the market for a laptop |
| 19:05:13 | brailsmt | what does this db_ext.vim provide? persistent storage for plugins? |
| 19:05:17 | Jayce^ | hrmm. |
| 19:06:18 | brailsmt | hah, you guys see the description for ibmedit.vim? "DarkBlue background. easy on the eyes." |
| 19:06:53 | brailsmt | midnight has... "A colorscheme with a dark blue background, very easy on the eyes..." |
| 19:07:08 | brailsmt | what a copycat... |
| 19:07:28 | han_solo | they all say easy on the eyes somewhere. :) |
| 19:07:38 | Jayce^ | hehe.. |
| 19:08:08 | Jayce^ | ok, I just saw something I want to know how to do.. opened up the db_ext.vim, and it had a thing where it "rolled up" a function.. |
| 19:08:11 | Jayce^ | then I pressed the key and it openeed it up.. |
| 19:08:26 | Jayce^ | I dont' know how to "re-shade" it, but I want to know... I would be using that a *lot* |
| 19:08:32 | brailsmt | folding |
| 19:08:42 | brailsmt | select some text |
| 19:08:47 | brailsmt | then type 'zf' |
| 19:08:50 | brailsmt | in visual mode |
| 19:08:56 | Jayce^ | yeah... gimmie gimmie :D |
| 19:08:59 | brailsmt | 'za' opens and closes the fold |
| 19:09:18 | brailsmt | look at students.cs.byu.edu/~mtb6 |
| 19:09:26 | brailsmt | I have a screenshot with some folded text... |
| 19:09:35 | han_solo | folding is the very coolest thing every |
| 19:09:39 | Jayce^ | oh that's something I've wanted for a looooong time.. |
| 19:09:42 | han_solo | s/every/ever/ |
| 19:09:59 | brailsmt | Jayce^: it has been in vim since 6.0 |
| 19:10:03 | brailsmt | :) |
| 19:10:06 | han_solo | :he fold.txt |
| 19:10:08 | Jayce^ | yeah yeah.... |
| 19:10:10 | brailsmt | I make heavy use of it |
| 19:10:16 | Jayce^ | I use vim like vi most of the time.. |
| 19:10:17 | brailsmt | :he folding |
| 19:10:24 | brailsmt | eewww... |
| 19:10:32 | brailsmt | with "set compatible"? |
| 19:11:04 | Jayce^ | no... just that's all I knew :D |
| 19:11:37 | brailsmt | using vim like vi is like using emacs without the control, shift, and meta keys |
| 19:11:46 | brailsmt | I would imagine... |
| 19:11:55 | brailsmt | is no emacs user |
| 19:12:35 | han_solo | no, plain vi is still quite powerful |
| 19:12:39 | levi_ | Oh, come on. I don't use emacs a whole lot, but it's hardly evil. Just not as good as vi. :) |
| 19:12:43 | brailsmt | Jayce^: also look at uug.clubs.byu.edu, I posted my vimrc, it has some functions to do folding a little differently |
| 19:13:12 | brailsmt | levi_: |
| 19:13:25 | levi_ | brailsmt: ? |
| 19:13:48 | brailsmt | levi_: maybe you are right about emacs not being evil... but you will have a tough time convincing me... :) |
| 19:14:07 | brailsmt | the previous line was an inadvertant typo... |
| 19:14:43 | levi_ | I used to use it a lot. It was great for mud programming, because you could connect with mud.el and have code auto-uploaded into a buffer and then sent back to the MUD for compilation. |
| 19:16:27 | levi_ | Plus, it's extensible via lisp, and lisp is cool. |
| 19:16:42 | levi_ | I just don't like all the modifier keys. I prefer modal editing. |
| 19:16:51 | han_solo | vim is extensible via perl or ruby |
| 19:16:54 | levi_ | Thus my preference for vi. |
| 19:17:17 | Jayce^ | I should schedule you guys for a month a plug... |
| 19:17:17 | Jayce^ | ditto.. |
| 19:17:25 | Jayce^ | ok, how can you do the fold in regular vim (no mouse).. or better, how do you define the selection.. m'a doesn't seem to do it.. |
| 19:17:26 | levi_ | Yeah, but everyone knows perl and ruby. |
| 19:17:36 | Jayce^ | you know, we really need to get uug and plug doing more together.. |
| 19:17:39 | Jayce^ | levi_: ditto |
| 19:17:40 | levi_ | LISP is a cool elite language that CS undergrads love to hate. |
| 19:18:40 | levi_ | I use shift-v and control-v when I'm making selections in vim and don't feel like counting line ranges. |
| 19:18:42 | brailsmt | Jayce^: use visual mode |
| 19:19:02 | brailsmt | shift-v |
| 19:19:14 | brailsmt | and then some movement keys |
| 19:19:27 | Jayce^ | got it.. thanks.. |
| 19:19:29 | brailsmt | while still in visual mode type 'zf' |
| 19:19:47 | han_solo | cs undergrads love to hate lisp because they're thrown into it by 330 |
| 19:19:51 | brailsmt | vim is also extendable in python... |
| 19:19:53 | han_solo | 330 and lisp are both cool |
| 19:20:05 | brailsmt | I liked 330, but I didn't like scheme... |
| 19:20:07 | han_solo | but something about the approach turns people off to both |
| 19:20:29 | han_solo | i say lisp (scheme) is cool, but had 330 been taught in ruby I would have retained a whole lot more. |
| 19:20:47 | brailsmt | han_solo: exactly... |
| 19:20:50 | levi_ | I also happen to like python. I guess I'm in the minority there, too. I can't say I have any particular reason for liking it, though. |
| 19:21:07 | brailsmt | i thought that the language they used in 330 was more a hinderance than a blessing |
| 19:21:08 | han_solo | maybe the whitespace dependancy? :) |
| 19:22:47 | levi_ | I don't care so much about the whitespace. I think it's mainly because it was an alternative to perl that wasn't horribly disfigured by design. I don't think ruby existed at the time, or at least it wasn't known over here. |
| 19:23:07 | Jayce^ | so, anybody oging to that slashdot meetup thingy? |
| 19:23:39 | brailsmt | yeah, ruby has only been here in the US since about 2000 |
| 19:25:25 | levi_ | I mainly like LISP and Scheme because of the coolness of the programs-as-data concept and the functional programming concept. |
| 19:26:42 | levi_ | I think 330 students don't get into it because it requires a paradigm shift in thinking and they don't see it as practical, so it's hard to justify the mental effort. |
| 19:27:54 | han_solo | levi_ exactly, and having to use a parenthesis-laden language that is easy to get lost in makes it more difficult. I struggled with the programs to a degree because the language got in the way. |
| 19:28:04 | han_solo | But I feel like I came out with an understanding and broadened horizons |
| 19:28:16 | han_solo | and now when I see lispness I think oh, cool |
| 19:28:22 | han_solo | because I know its potential. |
| 19:29:11 | Jayce^ | so han_solo and brailsmt.. you guys up for leading the discussion in two months at plug.. on vim ? |
| 19:29:36 | han_solo | sure |
| 19:30:12 | Jayce^ | woohoo... two months planned for :D |
| 19:30:29 | Jayce^ | I'll have to see if I can get new riders to send some copies of the vim book to hand out |
| 19:31:06 | brailsmt | Jayce^: yeah, if I can make it to the meeting... |
| 19:31:44 | Jayce^ | that would be the second wednesday in october.. |
| 19:32:05 | levi_ | The parenthesis-laden nature of lisp isn't so bad if you're using emacs. Editing lisp code is one thing it's really good for. |
| 19:32:09 | brailsmt | time? |
| 19:32:40 | Jayce^ | 7:30 as of next month it's been that same date/time for 6 years :D |
| 19:32:57 | han_solo | it's not so bad with the right vim settings either - it's finding your place in the sea of code and indentation (even with 1-space indentation) |
| 19:33:22 | han_solo | oooh, I would LOVE a copy of the new riders book |
| 19:34:59 | Jayce^ | han_solo: that's one of the nice things about oscon, I got to talke to the lasies that send out the books, and they all encouraged me to talk to them about giveaways and such |
| 19:35:10 | Jayce^ | oh yeah, and new riders gives groups 20% off too.. |
| 19:35:28 | levi_ | new riders? |
| 19:35:44 | Jayce^ | yeah... they have some really good books out now.. |
| 19:36:02 | han_solo | their MySQL (DuBois) one is excellent |
| 19:36:19 | Jayce^ | he did another one, mysql and perl for the web... just as good |
| 19:36:19 | levi_ | So new riders is a publisher? |
| 19:36:23 | Jayce^ | yeah |
| 19:36:48 | levi_ | han_solo: So which book were you referring to? |
| 19:37:09 | Jayce^ | the vim one is under their OPL, and available online.. |
| 19:37:31 | han_solo | the vim one. |
| 19:37:35 | levi_ | Ah, cool. |
| 19:37:35 | han_solo | online books are only so useful |
| 19:37:42 | levi_ | Where's the URL for it? |
| 19:37:44 | Jayce^ | yeah.. |
| 19:37:56 | brailsmt | Programming Ruby is OPL and available free online |
| 19:38:09 | Jayce^ | http://www.newriders.com/books/opl/index.asp |
| 19:38:26 | han_solo | that one is less useful than most online books as a reference (fine to read through) because everything is in page numbers without hyperlinks |
| 19:38:31 | han_solo | :( |
| 19:38:36 | Jayce^ | yeah |
| 19:38:40 | han_solo | (referring to programming ruby) |
| 19:38:55 | Jayce^ | the vim book is very good though.. |
| 19:39:02 | han_solo | http://vimdoc.sourceforge.net/ is a great way to read vim docs |
| 20:18:29 | han_solo | there he goes again. lots of sleep |
| 20:18:46 | Jayce^ | yeah |
| 20:18:53 | Jayce^ | at wierd times too |
| 20:23:39 | shanehathAWAY | is that better? ;-) |
| 20:24:08 | levi_ | ha ha. :) |
| 20:24:40 | Jayce^ | befitting.. |
| 20:24:51 | han_solo | :) |
| 20:25:30 | shanehathAWAY | have you guys seen safari.oreilly.com? |
| 20:25:36 | Jayce^ | oh yeah.. |
| 20:25:43 | shanehathAWAY | I think it's a fabulous resource. |
| 20:25:52 | Jayce^ | for a little while had a trial account that let me access everything.. that was really cool |
| 20:26:40 | shanehathAWAY | people have been talking about for-pay internet content lately. |
| 20:26:50 | shanehathAWAY | I think they were smokin' something |
| 20:26:58 | shanehathAWAY | until I saw a site like this. |
| 20:27:07 | Jayce^ | they did a really good job with it.. |
| 20:27:19 | shanehathAWAY | People will pay for content that isn't already free. |
| 20:28:06 | Jayce^ | or will pay for for whatever can make it better (being able to search is a great tool) |
| 20:28:25 | shanehathAWAY | yes, good point. |
| 20:42:05 | han_solo | someone else called smgl smeagol on uug today |
| 20:42:18 | Jayce^ | hehe |
| 20:42:22 | han_solo | without my influence :) |
| 20:42:42 | Jayce^ | one of these day's I might sign up for uug.. even though I've never been to BYU.. |
| 20:43:13 | han_solo | don't let that stop you :) |
| 20:43:35 | han_solo | uug and plug are a lot alike, and there's quite a bit of cross-posting, but there's some unique discussions on uug |
| 20:43:52 | han_solo | of course, there's also byu-centric discussions |
| 20:44:23 | Jayce^ | yeah, like I was saying, we should rally try and tie them together more.. for things we're both trying to do.. |
| 20:56:09 | HarleyPig | Hey! Use the site Luke! |
| 20:56:11 | HarleyPig | www.plug.org |
| 20:57:28 | han_solo | um, ok |
| 21:02:24 | levi_ | Hmm, outside I hear heavy rain. And a large lawnmower. |
| 21:04:32 | han_solo | sunny here |
| 21:04:38 | han_solo | at least from the nearest window |
| 21:05:26 | Jayce^ | one side of the house is sunny, the other dark and has thunder |
| 21:06:40 | han_solo | oooh, I'll have to look out the other side. I love thunderstorms |
| 21:06:44 | han_solo | rain, etc. love it. |
| 21:08:23 | levi_ | I hope it's clear tomorrow. |
| 21:10:23 | levi_ | Hmm. Weather.com says it will be, but it also says there's 0% chance of precipitation right now. |
| 21:14:07 | han_solo | KPVU 202155Z AUTO 22013KT 10SM CLR 31/10 A2977 RMK AO1 LTG DSNT N |
| 21:16:50 | levi_ | han_solo: Translation, please? |
| 21:17:07 | han_solo | KPVU is provo airport's designation |
| 21:17:32 | han_solo | 202155Z is the zulu time (20:21:55) |
| 21:17:37 | han_solo | AUTO - beats me |
| 21:17:54 | han_solo | 22013KT wind 220 degrees (southwest) at 13 kts |
| 21:18:06 | han_solo | 10SM 10 miles visibility |
| 21:18:15 | han_solo | CLR clear |
| 21:18:28 | han_solo | 31/10 temp/dewpoint (C) |
| 21:18:42 | han_solo | A2977 pressure 29.77 in. Hg |
| 21:18:50 | han_solo | RMK remark |
| 21:18:56 | han_solo | A01 got me |
| 21:19:02 | han_solo | LTG lightning |
| 21:19:07 | han_solo | DSNT distance? |
| 21:19:15 | han_solo | N probably means storm is to the north |
| 21:19:42 | levi_ | Makes sense, since there is a storm to the north as evidenced by the rain pounding on my window. |
| 21:20:52 | levi_ | Hmm, interesting article on Lisp: http://www.paulgraham.com/rootsoflisp.html |
| 22:24:13 | bbeattie | Mecworks: around? |
| 22:26:11 | scott | yeah, it's pretty incredible that such an old language can still be so cool |
| 22:26:27 | scott | it really was way ahead of it's time |
| 22:43:34 | levi_ | This arc language that the guy is working on sounds interesting. |
| 22:44:09 | levi_ | http://www.paulgraham.com/arcll1.html |
| 22:44:17 | scott | goo is going to be cooler I think |
| 22:44:36 | scott | www.googoogaga.org |
| 22:46:10 | levi_ | Heh, interesting observation: Ordinary lowercase letters are less work to type than characters like #&%$. (Dan Giffin recently observed that if you measure Perl programs by the number of keys you have to press, they don't seem so short.) |
| 22:46:23 | scott | heh |
| 22:48:33 | levi_ | Why do you think goo will be cooler? |
| 22:50:22 | scott | because I don't think arc will ever be mature |
| 22:50:28 | scott | goo is moving very fast already |
| 22:52:12 | scott | arc has been in development for a year now almost and what is there? nothing |
| 22:52:22 | scott | they're going to setup some web forum to evaluate (+ 2 2), wow |
| 22:52:43 | scott | goo will be compiling native code before arc's first release |
| 22:54:15 | levi_ | Well, I guess an implemented language is cooler in some respects than one that's not. :) |
| 22:54:42 | scott | well, I haven't read arc's definition completely, but I didn't see anything all that impressive in it |
| 22:54:50 | scott | bascially same old common lisp/dylan stuff |
| 22:54:56 | scott | which goo will have the best of |
| 22:56:25 | scott | plus I think the goo dev team is a little more, well, they have more experience in that area |
| 22:56:38 | scott | afaik paul graham has no experience writing a programming language |
| 22:56:59 | scott | whereas numerous of the goo guys are old harlequin or dylan guys |
| 22:58:31 | scott | but I do think paul graham's spam idea looked interesting |
| 22:58:36 | levi_ | Well, assuming the first-person stuff I read was written by him, and it seemed to be, he does have some experience designing languages. |
| 22:58:49 | scott | I only skimmed it but I think I might implement a version one of these nights |
| 22:59:43 | scott | what languages did he work on? |
| 23:01:11 | levi_ | OK, nevermind, the document I read was someone else recounting language design stuff. |
| 23:04:03 | levi_ | So, I'm not aware of him doing any previous language design either. |
| 23:04:47 | scott | oh well, it will be interesting to see how it turns out |
| 23:05:01 | levi_ | Still, I think an updated Lisp is a good idea. And I haven't read enough about goo to offer any comment on it. |
| 23:05:13 | scott | he talks as if it's a team of people working on it but afai've seen he hasn't listed who else is working on it |
| 23:12:48 | levi_ | Hmm. Not nearly as much readable information about goo's philosophy. But so far, it does look interesting. Going to have to look into it. |
| 23:13:11 | levi_ | Time to head home now though. Seeya later. |
| 23:18:29 | scott | goo is common lisp + scheme + dylan |
| 23:24:40 | scott | home already? |
| 23:24:47 | levi | Yup.\ |
| 23:24:59 | levi | I get home even quicker if the light is timed right. |
| 23:25:23 | levi | Despite the short commute time, it's frustrating to have it doubled by a single light. |
| 23:26:10 | scott | even though it only takes me 10 minutes to get to work I hate that I can see my work from home, but it's across a lake so I have to drive all the way around |
| 23:35:10 | levi | A 10 minute commute would be nice... give my car a chance to warm up. |
| 23:36:09 | levi | Mine's a bit less than a mile. I really should ride my bike. |
| 23:42:29 | brailsmt | would just settle for a job period... |