| 12:55:22 | | Howdy Bub |
| 12:55:22 | han_solo | hello? |
| 12:55:32 | | bugger all, i dunno, han_solo |
| 12:55:32 | han_solo | ibot, are you a perl master? |
| 12:55:56 | | i think i am "the" bot around |
| 12:55:56 | han_solo | ibot, who are you? |
| 12:56:04 | han_solo | i think so too |
| 16:05:12 | Jayce^ | so han_solo, you get rid of all that stuff yet |
| 16:05:21 | han_solo | not quite all |
| 16:05:35 | Jayce^ | so han_solo, you get rid of all that stuff yet |
| 16:05:35 | han_solo | but a lot of it |
| 16:05:53 | han_solo | is hearing double |
| 16:13:32 | han_solo | jayce^? did you fall off the seat? |
| 16:13:47 | Jayce^ | yeah, my connection is freaking out |
| 16:19:24 | han_solo | did you want any of it? |
| 16:19:56 | Jayce^ | maybe.. what's left? |
| 16:20:15 | han_solo | 3 AT cases |
| 16:22:50 | Jayce^ | dang, was hoping more for ram :D my gateway has an open slot |
| 16:36:30 | han_solo | of simms? |
| 16:36:39 | han_solo | wouldn't you need 2 open slots then? |
| 16:40:50 | Jayce^ | oh hust simms.. wasn't thinking.. thinking sdram still :D |
| 17:28:20 | | wish i knew, shane |
| 17:28:20 | shane | ibot: do you speak Python? |
| 17:28:28 | | Python is probably supposed to be easy and powerful... I've never touched it myself or a language |
| 17:28:28 | shane | ibot: what is Python? |
| 17:28:55 | | ...but python is supposed to be easy and powerful... I've never touched it myself or a language... |
| 17:28:55 | shane | ibot: Python is a great language used all over the world |
| 17:29:08 | | ...but python is supposed to be easy and powerful... I've never touched it myself or a language... |
| 17:29:08 | shane | ibot: Python is a great language used all over the world |
| 17:29:24 | | shane: what? |
| 17:29:24 | shane | ibot: you're not getting the point. |
| 17:29:43 | | java is at (Link: http://www.blackdown.org)http://www.blackdown.org or at (Link: http://www.javasoft.com)http://www.javasoft.com or at (Link: http://www.savaje.com)http://www.savaje.com or at (Link: http://www.pocketlinux.com)http://www.pocketlinux.com or at (Link: http://java.sun.com)http://java.sun.com or at http://www.insignia.com |
| 17:29:43 | shane | ibot: what is java? |
| 17:29:51 | | well, c++ is This is an extension of the C programming language that adds object-oriented concepts. |
| 17:29:51 | shane | ibot: what is c++? |
| 17:29:58 | | c is for cookie |
| 17:29:58 | shane | ibot: what is c? |
| 17:30:05 | | basic is (Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code) Thisprogramming language was developed in the mid '60s. The language wasconstructed of simple English-like commands that were run through aninterpreter, line by line, each time the program was "run." This causedBASIC programs to be slow. Now, compilers have been developed to speed upBASIC programs, and recent versions of BASIC can do anything that otherlanguages can. |
| 17:30:05 | shane | ibot: what is basic? |
| 17:30:29 | | i heard basic was (Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code) Thisprogramming language was developed in the mid '60s. The language wasconstructed of simple English-like commands that were run through aninterpreter, line by line, each time the program was "run." This causedBASIC programs to be slow. Now, compilers have been developed to speed upBASIC programs, and recent versions of BASIC can do anything that otherlanguages can. |
| 17:30:29 | shane | ibot: when is basic? |
| 17:30:43 | | well, cobol is (COmmon Business-Oriented Language) This is a programming language developed in the '60s by several computer companies and the US Department of Defense. COBOL is still used today for programming business applications and COBOL programmers are a major source of the Year 2000 headache. In fact, many of them have come out of retirement to fix the mess they've made. |
| 17:30:43 | shane | ibot: what is cobol? |
| 17:30:52 | | linux is ruling the world of Open Source! http://www.linux.org |
| 17:30:52 | shane | ibot: what is linux? |
| 17:30:59 | | utah is the place for fun |
| 17:30:59 | shane | ibot: what is utah? |
| 17:31:04 | | bugger all, i dunno, shane |
| 17:31:04 | shane | ibot: what is magna? |
| 17:31:13 | HarleyPig | magna or mana? |
| 17:31:16 | HarleyPig | manga? |
| 17:31:19 | | OK, shane. |
| 17:31:19 | shane | ibot: Magna is the heart of Utah. |
| 17:31:21 | HarleyPig | mania? |
| 17:31:30 | shane | manic ;-) |
| 17:31:31 | HarleyPig | heart!? I don't think so! |
| 17:31:37 | HarleyPig | :> |
| 17:31:44 | | shane: what? |
| 17:31:44 | shane | ibot says so, it must be true. |
| 17:31:50 | | magna is the heart of Utah. |
| 17:31:50 | shane | ibot: what is magna? |
| 17:32:09 | | magna is nothing but a spam-sucking pile of penguin-molesting bat toenails. |
| 17:32:09 | han_solo | ibot, insult magna |
| 17:32:21 | HarleyPig | penguin molesting? |
| 17:32:24 | | han_solo is nothing but a fawning plate of rank cat hair. |
| 17:32:24 | shane | ibot, insult han_solo |
| 17:32:31 | HarleyPig | has a mental image he wishes to share ... |
| 17:35:23 | Jayce^ | uh-oh |
| 17:36:04 | Mecworks | |
| 17:36:25 | Jayce^ | you don't say.. |
| 17:36:26 | han_solo | |
| 17:36:30 | han_solo | i don't either |
| 17:36:47 | shane | I wish I could figure out ibot's limited vocabulary. |
| 17:36:55 | | han_solo: i don't know |
| 17:36:55 | han_solo | ibot, who is shane? |
| 17:37:01 | | OK, han_solo. |
| 17:37:01 | han_solo | ibot, shane is confused. |
| 17:37:05 | han_solo | who is shane? |
| 17:37:10 | | i heard shane was confused. |
| 17:37:10 | han_solo | ibot who is shane? |
| 17:37:13 | | i heard han_solo was Hans, the brother of Frans |
| 17:37:13 | shane | ibot, who is han_solo? |
| 17:37:26 | | okay, han_solo. |
| 17:37:26 | han_solo | ibot, shane is also enahs spelled backwards. |
| 17:37:30 | | han_solo again. is nothing but a weather-bitten stack of knotty-pated entrails. |
| 17:37:30 | shane | ibot, insult han_solo again. |
| 17:37:31 | | shane is confused. or enahs spelled backwards. |
| 17:37:31 | han_solo | ibot, who is shane? |
| 17:37:56 | | bugger all, i dunno, han_solo |
| 17:37:56 | han_solo | ibot, who is hans? |
| 17:38:00 | | you are probably Hans, the brother of Frans |
| 17:38:00 | han_solo | ibot, who is han_solo? |
| 17:38:08 | | OK, han_solo. |
| 17:38:08 | han_solo | ibot, no I am Hans Fugal |
| 17:38:13 | | i heard han_solo was Hans, the brother of Frans |
| 17:38:13 | han_solo | ibot who am i |
| 17:38:25 | | i already had it that way, han_solo. |
| 17:38:25 | han_solo | ibot, no han_solo is Hans Fugal |
| 17:38:29 | han_solo | right |
| 17:38:32 | | you are probably Hans, the brother of Frans |
| 17:38:32 | han_solo | ibot, who is han_solo? |
| 17:38:35 | | okay, shane. |
| 17:38:35 | shane | ibot, han_solo is also a rebel |
| 17:39:14 | | you are Hans Fugal |
| 17:39:14 | han_solo | ibot, who is han_solo? |
| 17:39:20 | han_solo | buahaha |
| 17:39:25 | | okay, shane. |
| 17:39:25 | shane | ibot, han_solo is also a rebel |
| 17:39:31 | | han_solo is probably Hans Fugal or a rebel |
| 17:39:31 | shane | ibot, who is han_solo |
| 17:39:39 | han_solo | hmm, but not both? :) |
| 17:39:55 | shane | guess not :-) |
| 17:40:07 | han_solo | decides to be a rebel for now |
| 17:40:13 | shane | are all you guys in Utah? |
| 17:40:26 | Jayce^ | I think so.. |
| 17:40:44 | shane | I'm from Utah, living in Virginia, but I'm planning to come back someday. |
| 17:41:23 | han_solo | exiled? |
| 17:41:33 | han_solo | is in provo |
| 17:41:35 | Jayce^ | I'm living in utah.. and planning on leaving someday :D |
| 17:41:36 | shane | If you can call better pay exile :-) |
| 17:41:53 | han_solo | I'm from New Mexico, hoping to go back someday |
| 17:42:40 | shane | nifty. Y'all use Linux? |
| 17:42:53 | han_solo | naturally |
| 17:43:15 | Jayce^ | naturally.. |
| 17:43:26 | shane | Mandrake? ;-) |
| 17:43:33 | | shane: wish i knew |
| 17:43:33 | shane | ibot, what is mandrake? |
| 17:43:44 | | OK, shane. |
| 17:43:44 | shane | ibot, Mandrake is the best linux distro |
| 17:44:09 | | ...but sourcemage is like gentoo in that it's all source, so ibot's "spells" are files with the source location (urls) and configure options and such.... |
| 17:44:09 | Jayce^ | ibot SourceMage is the best linux distro |
| 17:44:23 | | okay, Jayce^. |
| 17:44:23 | Jayce^ | ibot SourceMage is also the best linux distro |
| 17:44:30 | | sourcemage is, like, like gentoo in that it's all source, so my "spells" are files with the source location (urls) and configure options and such. or the best linux distro |
| 17:44:30 | Jayce^ | ibot sourcemage |
| 17:44:38 | shane | but not both ;-) |
| 17:45:03 | Jayce^ | heh |
| 17:45:49 | shane | Actually I don't have much basis for comparison, but I've been using MAndrake for years now and it's very nice. |
| 17:46:21 | shane | And of course Python r00lz ;-) |
| 17:46:30 | | debian is a Linux-Distribution (http://www.debian.org) or very cool or the best thing since sliced macaroni and cheese |
| 17:46:30 | han_solo | ibot, what is debian? |
| 17:46:35 | | ruby is, like, the OO scripting language from Japan or in feed "http://httpd.chello.nl/k.vangelder/ipaq/feed/" or featuring the best from Perl and SmallTalk or in feed "http://handhelds.org/feeds/ruby/" |
| 17:46:35 | han_solo | ibot, what is ruby? |
| 17:46:58 | | ...but python is supposed to be easy and powerful... I've never touched it myself or a language... |
| 17:46:58 | shane | ibot, python is better than ruby |
| 17:47:02 | | okay, shane. |
| 17:47:02 | shane | ibot, python is also better than ruby |
| 17:47:45 | | okay, shane. |
| 17:47:45 | shane | ibot, ruby is also inferior to python. |
| 17:48:01 | | hmmm... ruby is the OO scripting language from Japan or in feed "http://httpd.chello.nl/k.vangelder/ipaq/feed/" or featuring the best from Perl and SmallTalk or in feed "http://handhelds.org/feeds/ruby/" or better than python or inferior to python. |
| 17:48:01 | han_solo | ibot, what is ruby? |
| 17:48:09 | | ...but python is supposed to be easy and powerful... I've never touched it myself or a language or better than ruby... |
| 17:48:09 | han_solo | ibot, python is inferior to ruby |
| 17:48:14 | | okay, han_solo. |
| 17:48:14 | han_solo | ibot, python is also inferior to ruby |
| 17:48:31 | | shane: huh? |
| 17:48:31 | shane | ibot, apparently you're confused. |
| 17:48:36 | | ...but ibot is "the" bot around... |
| 17:48:36 | shane | ibot, you are confused. |
| 17:48:39 | Jayce^ | oh yeah, we got a python bigot, a ruby bigot, and two knowledgeable Perl hackers here :D |
| 17:48:51 | han_solo | lol |
| 17:49:01 | shane | not exactly, we're just poking fun |
| 17:49:31 | han_solo | if brailsmt weren't buried in Fellowship he'd make 2 ruby bigots :) |
| 17:49:49 | | okay, shane. |
| 17:49:50 | shane | ibot, you are also confused. |
| 17:49:54 | | i am probably "the" bot around or confused. |
| 17:49:54 | shane | ibot ibot |
| 17:50:22 | shane | returns to work |
| 17:50:25 | han_solo | or the confused bot around |
| 17:50:34 | shane | thanks for a laugh. |
| 17:52:12 | han_solo | poor ibot. |
| 18:16:51 | brailsmt | haha... |
| 18:16:54 | brailsmt | yeah... |
| 18:16:57 | brailsmt | is a ruby bigot |
| 18:17:35 | brailsmt | funny how perl programmers are hackers, and anyone else a bigot according to Jayce^ |
| 18:17:38 | brailsmt | :) |
| 18:19:35 | brailsmt | too bad hacking is about all perl can aspire to... |
| 18:20:30 | brailsmt | oh, that and line noise |
| 18:20:48 | brailsmt | :) |
| 18:29:21 | han_solo | heh. |
| 18:30:41 | han_solo | real-life situation (this morning) |
| 18:30:45 | han_solo | $target =~ s{ ^ ~ ( [^/]* ) } |
| 18:30:45 | han_solo | { $1 ? (getpwnam($1))[7] |
| 18:30:45 | han_solo | : ( $ENV{HOME} || $ENV{LOGDIR} |
| 18:30:45 | han_solo | || (getpwuid($>))[7] |
| 18:30:45 | han_solo | ) |
| 18:30:45 | han_solo | }ex; |
| 18:30:47 | han_solo | that's perl |
| 18:31:02 | han_solo | target = File.expand_path(target) |
| 18:31:05 | han_solo | that's ruby |
| 18:35:30 | HarleyPig | I love how proponents bring up specific solutions to problems, but never talk about the over all language. |
| 18:35:52 | HarleyPig | And besides ... you could do Use Inline::Ruby |
| 18:35:57 | HarleyPig | :] |
| 18:36:16 | han_solo | well, I didn't have an overall language experience this morning. :) |
| 18:36:17 | HarleyPig | Can you do *that* in Ruby? |
| 18:36:43 | han_solo | can I use ruby inline in ruby? sure. ;) |
| 18:36:55 | HarleyPig | :> Smart ass. |
| 18:37:09 | han_solo | perl is more mature than ruby, no doubt |
| 18:37:39 | HarleyPig | I dunno ... all those people out there beating their drums ... |
| 18:38:28 | han_solo | as much as I like ruby - perl has a lot more users. in open source, a lot more developers using a language = more stable |
| 18:38:32 | han_solo | er, more mature |
| 18:38:33 | HarleyPig | Hows that phrase go? "It ain't the meat, it's the beat!" |
| 18:38:42 | han_solo | for better or worse |
| 18:38:53 | HarleyPig | True. I wonder if Rebol is still around. |
| 18:39:13 | han_solo | is that like cobol? |
| 18:39:45 | HarleyPig | No, it's a scripting language someone came up with a few years ago. |
| 18:39:53 | HarleyPig | Supposed to be really simple. |
| 18:40:37 | han_solo | for me, the biggest advantage to ruby is the oo-ness. |
| 18:40:41 | HarleyPig | Wow ... they integrated it into an IOS. www.rebol.com |
| 18:40:55 | han_solo | and the first-class functions (but doesn't perl have that?) |
| 18:40:59 | HarleyPig | :> That's what I like about perl too. |
| 18:41:12 | han_solo | oo in perl? come now - it's anything but easy |
| 18:41:20 | HarleyPig | ? |
| 18:41:37 | HarleyPig | package modulename; ... functions ... ; 1; |
| 18:41:41 | HarleyPig | use modulename; |
| 18:41:43 | HarleyPig | That easy. |
| 18:41:56 | han_solo | inheritance? |
| 18:42:04 | han_solo | i agree perl is easy to modularize |
| 18:42:05 | HarleyPig | Left most, but otherwise yes. |
| 18:42:20 | HarleyPig | The problem is that it doesn't do all the work for you. |
| 18:42:29 | HarleyPig | It does the minimal amount. |
| 18:42:33 | HarleyPig | That's why I like it. |
| 18:42:38 | han_solo | ic |
| 18:43:00 | HarleyPig | I'm not forced to use some anonymous programmers or companies idea of what oo should be, |
| 18:43:07 | han_solo | what I like about ruby's approach to oo is that things are open |
| 18:43:13 | HarleyPig | especially when it's almost always slightly different for each project. |
| 18:43:32 | HarleyPig | How is that different from perl? |
| 18:43:42 | HarleyPig | (I don't know ruby at all, I'm curious). |
| 18:43:44 | han_solo | you can change method xyz if you don't like what it does. does this class do everything but needs one more method? add it. |
| 18:43:54 | han_solo | don't need to subclass in those cases |
| 18:44:06 | han_solo | I'm not comparing to perl here - not enough experience with perl and oo |
| 18:44:11 | han_solo | but comparing to java, c++ etc |
| 18:44:48 | HarleyPig | So, ruby allows you to subclass without creating a new module? |
| 18:45:20 | HarleyPig | Something like use module ; module::function { new stuff } ; ? |
| 18:45:39 | brailsmt | all ruby classes are open |
| 18:45:42 | brailsmt | ie... |
| 18:45:48 | brailsmt | searches for an example |
| 18:46:13 | HarleyPig | The calling procedure can access the routines in the super class? |
| 18:47:17 | brailsmt | class Array |
| 18:47:18 | brailsmt | def each_group(num) |
| 18:47:18 | brailsmt | 0.step(size-1, num) { |x| yield self[x, num] } |
| 18:47:18 | brailsmt | end |
| 18:47:18 | brailsmt | end |
| 18:47:33 | brailsmt | I just added a method to the ruby builtin Array class |
| 18:47:47 | han_solo | "In Ruby, classes are never closed: you can always add methods to an existing class. This applies to the classes you write as well as the standard, built-in classes. All you have to do is open up a class definition for an existing class, and the new contents you specify will be added to whatever's there." |
| 18:48:26 | HarleyPig | Based on that description, you can do the same in perl. |
| 18:48:28 | brailsmt | HarleyPig: that is inheritance |
| 18:48:43 | brailsmt | perl's OO is a hack |
| 18:49:07 | brailsmt | i used to use perl |
| 18:49:17 | HarleyPig | So? It works. |
| 18:49:21 | brailsmt | then I learned ruby, and it just agreed with me better |
| 18:49:27 | han_solo | I like both perl and ruby, but I generally find that I prefer ruby. |
| 18:49:38 | brailsmt | it comes down to a matter of preference |
| 18:49:48 | HarleyPig | No, you can take and replace existing functions in a super class without creating anew module. |
| 18:49:51 | HarleyPig | in perl. |
| 18:49:52 | brailsmt | ruby's syntax is a lot cleaner and easier to understand than perls |
| 18:50:04 | han_solo | and if it's OO, I choose ruby without question. maybe because it's easy in ruby, not necesarrily because it's not possible in perl |
| 18:50:10 | han_solo | (and I don't know oo in perl) |
| 18:50:51 | HarleyPig | Ok. |
| 18:50:55 | brailsmt | perl is more popular, but then again, so is windows |
| 18:51:37 | han_solo | redhat's more popular than debian. Hmm. maybe I have a complex against using popular stuff. :) |
| 18:52:02 | han_solo | brailsmt, where are you now in fellowship? |
| 18:52:10 | HarleyPig | oooohhh ... them's fightin' words brailsmt! :> |
| 18:52:12 | brailsmt | p. 250-ish... |
| 18:52:33 | HarleyPig | Comparing perl to winblows! |
| 18:52:37 | Jayce^ | sorry, was out.. |
| 18:52:55 | brailsmt | they just met Strider and they are about to meet the wraiths at the hill for the first time after leaving Breeland |
| 18:52:58 | han_solo | yeah, poor harleypig had to defend perl all on his own |
| 18:53:13 | brailsmt | HarleyPig: I wasn't comparing perl to windows... |
| 18:53:39 | han_solo | let's see - pearls vs. glass |
| 18:53:44 | han_solo | I'd take the pearls. ;-) |
| 18:53:56 | brailsmt | I was pointing out that popularity isn't the best criteria |
| 18:54:23 | han_solo | or can be an anti-criteria sometimes. :) |
| 18:57:30 | brailsmt | isn't saying "perl is OO" like saying "C is OO"? Afterall, I *can* do OO programming in C |
| 18:58:02 | brailsmt | it isn't as easy as doing it in C++ or Java, but I can do it... |
| 18:59:55 | brailsmt | most ruby-ists are ex-perl mongers |
| 19:00:02 | Jayce^ | but you don't *have* to do OO... and that's nice.. |
| 19:00:11 | brailsmt | same with Ruby... |
| 19:00:12 | Jayce^ | more any scripters are ex -Perl.. |
| 19:00:22 | brailsmt | I have written several scripts not using OO in Ruby |
| 19:00:28 | HarleyPig | I don't want *easy* I want flexibility. |
| 19:00:55 | HarleyPig | If I want to use a certain oo methodology for one project and a different for another project I can do that with perl. |
| 19:01:01 | HarleyPig | I can't with anything else I've seen. |
| 19:01:01 | brailsmt | but OO in ruby is very clean, should you choose to use it |
| 19:01:11 | han_solo | ruby doesn't require oo. not like java |
| 19:01:19 | han_solo | ruby can be straight procedural if you want |
| 19:01:28 | HarleyPig | But you must follow the oo methodology of ruby's author. |
| 19:01:29 | han_solo | which makes it nice - it doesn't get in your way. like perl |
| 19:01:39 | brailsmt | HarleyPig: no you don't |
| 19:01:40 | HarleyPig | Uh, perl is the same way. |
| 19:01:54 | han_solo | yeah. so it comes down to preference |
| 19:01:58 | HarleyPig | You can change the type of oo you want to use in ruby? |
| 19:02:07 | han_solo | do you do enough oo to benefit from a simple oo design? then use ruby |
| 19:02:12 | HarleyPig | Or how much oo? |
| 19:02:24 | han_solo | I didn't know there were more than one type of oo |
| 19:02:39 | HarleyPig | Can you mix and match oo and procedural in ruby? |
| 19:02:47 | brailsmt | #!/usr/bin/ruby |
| 19:02:48 | brailsmt | results = `cvs status | grep Status` |
| 19:02:48 | brailsmt | results.each_line {|line| |
| 19:02:48 | brailsmt | if /Locally Modified/.match(line) |
| 19:02:48 | brailsmt | print '', line, '' |
| 19:02:48 | brailsmt | elsif /Needs Patch/.match(line) or /Needs Merge/.match(line) |
| 19:02:50 | brailsmt | print '', line, '' |
| 19:02:54 | brailsmt | end |
| 19:02:56 | brailsmt | } |
| 19:02:58 | brailsmt | that is not OO |
| 19:03:22 | HarleyPig | I meant in the same program ... can you have both procedural and oo in one program |
| 19:03:22 | HarleyPig | ? |
| 19:03:27 | brailsmt | yes |
| 19:03:32 | HarleyPig | Cool. |
| 19:03:36 | han_solo | actually, his example is an example of just that |
| 19:03:44 | han_solo | he didn't do any objects stuff, but he used built-in oo |
| 19:03:47 | HarleyPig | Oh, I see it now. |
| 19:03:49 | brailsmt | results is an Array class |
| 19:03:57 | brailsmt | but I didn't define any classes |
| 19:03:58 | HarleyPig | yeah, the . gave it away. |
| 19:05:42 | han_solo | the other cool thing in ruby is yield |
| 19:06:01 | Jayce^ | yield? as in threads yield? |
| 19:06:07 | brailsmt | no |
| 19:06:18 | han_solo | searches for an example |
| 19:06:18 | brailsmt | as in my class Array example |
| 19:06:27 | brailsmt | points up |
| 19:06:27 | HarleyPig | do { print "$_\n" if /(?:Locally Modify)|(?:Needs Patch|Merge)/ } for `cvs status | grep Status`; |
| 19:06:51 | Jayce^ | I love being able to use different language styles.. |
| 19:07:01 | brailsmt | HarleyPig: I could have done that a lot simpler, if that wasn't my first script in ruby |
| 19:07:06 | HarleyPig | :> |
| 19:07:33 | levi_ | Bah, you guys and your scripting languages. Real Programmers use C and hack on kernel code, not text file munging and 'web services'. ;) |
| 19:07:37 | HarleyPig | brailsmt: I'm not picking up what you mean by yield from that code saple. |
| 19:07:51 | han_solo | def fibUpTo(max) |
| 19:07:51 | han_solo | i1, i2 = 1, 1 # parallel assignment |
| 19:07:51 | han_solo | while i1 <= max |
| 19:07:51 | han_solo | yield i1 |
| 19:07:51 | han_solo | i1, i2 = i2, i1+i2 |
| 19:07:52 | han_solo | end |
| 19:07:54 | han_solo | end |
| 19:07:56 | han_solo | fibUpTo(1000) { |f| print f, " " } |
| 19:07:58 | HarleyPig | mutters something about kernel hackers and system developers. |
| 19:08:30 | HarleyPig | fibonaci sequence? |
| 19:08:36 | han_solo | that's what it does, yes. |
| 19:08:46 | HarleyPig | (And perl has parallel assignments too). |
| 19:09:04 | levi_ | Real Programmers write scripting language interpreters for the masses. ;) |
| 19:09:06 | han_solo | right - that came from the web, I didn't trim the comment. :) |
| 19:09:06 | brailsmt | ie, `cvs status | grep Status`.each {|line| print line if line =~ /<regex>/ ) |
| 19:09:16 | HarleyPig | I'm being dense or something. I still can't figure out what the yield is doing. |
| 19:09:27 | han_solo | no, it's a different idea than most are used to |
| 19:09:31 | HarleyPig | brailsmt: Oh, now that's cool. |
| 19:09:46 | han_solo | yield calls the code block given to the function on the last line |
| 19:09:54 | brailsmt | HarleyPig: yield runs the code block passed in |
| 19:10:04 | HarleyPig | Like perl's eval? |
| 19:10:08 | brailsmt | no!!! |
| 19:10:12 | Jayce^ | that's what it sounds like to me.. |
| 19:10:13 | brailsmt | well... |
| 19:10:23 | brailsmt | eval is evil (at least all uses I have seen |
| 19:10:24 | brailsmt | ) |
| 19:10:30 | brailsmt | i don't know perl's eval... |
| 19:10:38 | HarleyPig | :> |
| 19:10:39 | brailsmt | if it like ruby's eval, it is a code smell |
| 19:10:39 | Jayce^ | ??? I love perls eval (s) |
| 19:10:41 | han_solo | how would you do the fibonacci thing with eval? |
| 19:11:07 | brailsmt | eval is generally a code smell |
| 19:11:18 | han_solo | (in a simple manner - i.e. you define the block of code to be called for each fibonacci outside of the function) |
| 19:11:29 | han_solo | s/simple/similar/ |
| 19:11:32 | brailsmt | in my Array class example... |
| 19:11:36 | brailsmt | it is called via... |
| 19:12:31 | brailsmt | td.each_group(5) { |words| |
| 19:12:31 | brailsmt | yield "syn keyword #{$typedef_group} #{words.join(' ')}" |
| 19:12:31 | brailsmt | } |
| 19:12:45 | Jayce^ | looks kinda like doing a map |
| 19:13:01 | brailsmt | which is really neat |
| 19:13:07 | brailsmt | ie... |
| 19:13:42 | HarleyPig | Well, you'd probably want to use recursion on that kind of sequence, not eval. |
| 19:13:57 | brailsmt | irb(main):002:0> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9].each_group(5) {|group| p group } |
| 19:13:57 | brailsmt | [1, 2, 3, 4, 5] |
| 19:13:57 | brailsmt | [6, 7, 8, 9] |
| 19:13:57 | brailsmt | 0 |
| 19:14:16 | brailsmt | irb(main):003:0> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9].each_group(3) {|group| p group } |
| 19:14:16 | brailsmt | [1, 2, 3] |
| 19:14:16 | brailsmt | [4, 5, 6] |
| 19:14:16 | brailsmt | [7, 8, 9] |
| 19:14:25 | Jayce^ | in the threadtut I think they give an example of that with threads.. |
| 19:14:45 | brailsmt | irb(main):004:0> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9].each_group(3) {|group| p group.join " - " } |
| 19:14:45 | brailsmt | "1 - 2 - 3" |
| 19:14:45 | brailsmt | "4 - 5 - 6" |
| 19:14:46 | brailsmt | "7 - 8 - 9" |
| 19:14:55 | brailsmt | lots of cool things to do with yield... |
| 19:14:58 | HarleyPig | Yeah, there are a number of sites citing perl solutions, most so far are using recursive routines. |
| 19:16:54 | brailsmt | yield is a concept that was pulled from smalltalk I think... |
| 19:17:13 | han_solo | it's a closure. straight out of 330 :) You can do that sort of thing in scheme too |
| 19:17:15 | HarleyPig | Uh, the ruby syntax says: Evaluates the block given to the current method with arguments, if no argument is given, nil is used as an argument. The argument assignment to the block prameter is done just like multiple assignment. If the block is not supplied for the current method, the exception is raised. |
| 19:17:18 | han_solo | with a lot more parenthesis |
| 19:17:18 | HarleyPig | Sounds like eval to me. |
| 19:18:08 | han_solo | so translating fib from ruby to perl should be simple then, using a closure approach. |
| 19:18:09 | HarleyPig | The implementation is different, sure ... but it still evaluates code. |
| 19:18:26 | han_solo | care to demonstrate? |
| 19:18:49 | HarleyPig | Uh ... not sure. I tend to avoid evals as much as possible. |
| 19:19:02 | HarleyPig | I could show you some fibonacci stuff I've found on the web though. |
| 19:19:13 | HarleyPig | They're all recurssive, not evaluative though. |
| 19:19:31 | han_solo | does it use eval? |
| 19:19:37 | HarleyPig | Nope. |
| 19:19:53 | brailsmt | http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/talks/introruby/introruby.htm |
| 19:19:55 | han_solo | can you show me a simple eval example, so I can get my footing? (left my Perl in a nutshell at home) |
| 19:20:00 | brailsmt | ^-- is a good intro to ruby |
| 19:20:27 | brailsmt | pulls out his (dusty) camel book |
| 19:20:39 | HarleyPig | Sure: my $code = "print \"Hi there!\\n\"" ; eval $code |
| 19:20:59 | Jayce^ | thats a simple version of course.. |
| 19:21:07 | brailsmt | that is not like yield |
| 19:21:07 | levi_ | looks up stuff on 'yield' on the net and finally groks it. |
| 19:21:30 | HarleyPig | In what way? |
| 19:21:31 | Jayce^ | I use it with db transactions/error handling (since try/catch are in perl6) |
| 19:21:44 | brailsmt | code = "print 'hi there'"; eval code |
| 19:21:46 | brailsmt | that is ruby |
| 19:21:58 | brailsmt | that is different than yield |
| 19:22:17 | Jayce^ | you can use eval in other ways though... |
| 19:22:19 | HarleyPig | ruby doesn't have an eval listed in its syntax page. |
| 19:22:35 | HarleyPig | brailsmt: han_solo asked for a *simple* demonstration. |
| 19:22:53 | brailsmt | yield was taken from Clu/Sather |
| 19:23:00 | levi_ | Can you pass args to an eval? |
| 19:23:10 | HarleyPig | never mind ... found it in the functions page. |
| 19:23:14 | HarleyPig | levi_: Yes. |
| 19:23:25 | HarleyPig | Uh, no. Not the same as in ruby. |
| 19:24:33 | brailsmt | check out that URL I pasted |
| 19:24:36 | HarleyPig | Ok ... so eval and yield are two separate things in the ruby language ... but the descriptions are very similar ... I'm not seeing the differences. |
| 19:24:38 | brailsmt | it is a good intro to ruby |
| 19:25:08 | han_solo | how do you pass arguments to an eval? |
| 19:25:21 | han_solo | thanks for the example. eval is basically first-class functions |
| 19:25:32 | brailsmt | ruby has a lot of things that I have never seen before in any programming language that make it very nice and very easy to use |
| 19:25:36 | Jayce^ | perldoc -f eval |
| 19:25:36 | han_solo | that's a big step up from c/c++ for perl |
| 19:26:17 | HarleyPig | Uh, that url is mainly propaganda ... and no meat. |
| 19:26:20 | brailsmt | ruby auto creates accessor/mutators for a class if you tell it to |
| 19:26:29 | brailsmt | HarleyPig: have you seen it? |
| 19:26:36 | brailsmt | there is plenty of meat |
| 19:26:39 | han_solo | yeah, I like that |
| 19:27:01 | HarleyPig | I'm looking at it now. |
| 19:27:06 | Jayce^ | you can do that in perl to... very common |
| 19:27:08 | brailsmt | class Example; attr_reader :foo, :bar; end; |
| 19:27:12 | brailsmt | e = Example.new |
| 19:27:15 | HarleyPig | I see the example you used ... but it's not helping me understand what yield is or does. |
| 19:27:15 | Jayce^ | especially using autoload |
| 19:27:44 | Jayce^ | HarleyPig: in looking a *little* it seems almost liek a map, but on the inside.. |
| 19:28:12 | brailsmt | 's example blows up in his face |
| 19:28:14 | brailsmt | :) |
| 19:28:16 | HarleyPig | Hmmmm ... |
| 19:28:23 | brailsmt | i can't set e.foo or e.bar |
| 19:28:34 | brailsmt | but I can get their values... :) |
| 19:28:53 | HarleyPig | brailsmt: I really do want to understand the differences and similarities ... I want to know how various languages work. |
| 19:29:58 | levi_ | So, how is yield different from something like passing a lambda function as an argument and calling that in your loop? |
| 19:30:07 | han_solo | basically, yield is a lambda function (closure) |
| 19:30:10 | HarleyPig | I think I agree with Jayce^ on the yield statement ... it does look more and more like a map function, or maybe a combo map/grep. |
| 19:30:19 | brailsmt | HarleyPig: try http://www.rubycentral.com/book/tut_containers.html |
| 19:30:28 | han_solo | and eval is a first-class function |
| 19:30:32 | Jayce^ | which is similar to what's being described by the others.. |
| 19:30:35 | brailsmt | and scroll down to "Implementing Iterators" |
| 19:30:45 | han_solo | I'm not familiar with perl's map, but that might be closer to yield |
| 19:31:04 | brailsmt | yield is a keyword |
| 19:31:08 | brailsmt | not a function |
| 19:31:19 | HarleyPig | Oh! yield is an anonymous subroutine. |
| 19:31:20 | brailsmt | [Programming-language buffs will be pleased to know that the keyword yield was chosen to echo the yield function in Liskov's language CLU, a language that is over 20 years old and yet contains features that still haven't been widely exploited by the CLU-less.] |
| 19:31:29 | han_solo | well, ok - the use of yield is like using lambda |
| 19:31:40 | brailsmt | that is from "Programming Ruby" by Dave Thomas and Andy Hunt |
| 19:31:46 | HarleyPig | brailsmt: :D |
| 19:32:23 | brailsmt | han_solo: no lambda defines a function |
| 19:32:48 | han_solo | i'm not following you |
| 19:32:54 | brailsmt | yeild basically says "run whatever code block was passed to me" |
| 19:33:02 | levi_ | Apparently Python has a yield keyword now, too. |
| 19:33:35 | brailsmt | but yeild != eval |
| 19:33:50 | levi_ | brailsmt: How is that code block different from an anonymous function? Is it? |
| 19:33:50 | Jayce^ | no, it's closer to map... |
| 19:34:57 | han_solo | jayce^, can you expound on map |
| 19:34:58 | han_solo | ? |
| 19:35:00 | brailsmt | I believe that the code block passed in is passed a ruby Proc object |
| 19:35:15 | han_solo | so a ruby Proc object would be a closure, right? |
| 19:35:28 | brailsmt | ["H", "A", "L"].collect { |x| x.succ } ? ["I", "B", "M"] |
| 19:35:30 | brailsmt | lol! |
| 19:35:54 | brailsmt | there is hidden meaning in the movies... |
| 19:35:54 | HarleyPig | brailsmt: No, yield appears to be an anonymous subroutine equivalent. |
| 19:36:11 | brailsmt | han_solo: yes |
| 19:36:36 | han_solo | harleypig, yield maps the closure. the anonymous subroutine is the code block passed in (the closure) |
| 19:37:09 | Jayce^ | map BLOCK LIST |
| 19:37:09 | Jayce^ | map EXPR,LIST |
| 19:37:09 | Jayce^ | Evaluates the BLOCK or EXPR for each element of |
| 19:37:09 | Jayce^ | LIST (locally setting `$_' to each element) and |
| 19:37:09 | Jayce^ | returns the list value composed of the results of |
| 19:37:10 | Jayce^ | each such evaluation. In scalar context, returns |
| 19:37:14 | Jayce^ | the total number of elements so generated. |
| 19:37:16 | Jayce^ | Evaluates BLOCK or EXPR in list context, so each |
| 19:37:18 | Jayce^ | element of LIST may produce zero, one, or more |
| 19:37:20 | Jayce^ | elements in the returned value. |
| 19:37:22 | Jayce^ | @chars = map(chr, @nums); |
| 19:37:25 | Jayce^ | translates a list of numbers to the corresponding |
| 19:37:26 | Jayce^ | characters. And |
| 19:37:28 | Jayce^ | %hash = map { getkey($_) => $_ } @array; |
| 19:37:31 | Jayce^ | is just a funny way to write |
| 19:37:32 | HarleyPig | Yeah ... Ok ... I'm getting a better picture now. Yield is (maybe) roughly an anon sub, map or grep depending. |
| 19:37:32 | Jayce^ | %hash = (); |
| 19:37:34 | Jayce^ | foreach $_ (@array) { |
| 19:37:36 | Jayce^ | $hash{getkey($_)} = $_; |
| 19:37:38 | Jayce^ | } |
| 19:37:40 | Jayce^ | Note that, because `$_' is a reference into the |
| 19:37:44 | Jayce^ | list value, it can be used to modify the elements |
| 19:37:46 | Jayce^ | of the array. While this is useful and supported, |
| 19:37:48 | Jayce^ | it can cause bizarre results if the LIST is not a |
| 19:37:50 | Jayce^ | named array. Using a regular `foreach' loop for |
| 19:37:52 | Jayce^ | this purpose would be clearer in most cases. See |
| 19:37:54 | Jayce^ | also the grep entry elsewhere in this document for |
| 19:37:56 | Jayce^ | an array composed of those items of the original |
| 19:37:57 | brailsmt | argh... |
| 19:37:58 | han_solo | ok, I repent for not doing perldoc -f map :) |
| 19:37:58 | Jayce^ | list for which the BLOCK or EXPR evaluates to |
| 19:38:00 | Jayce^ | true. |
| 19:38:02 | Jayce^ | wow.. longer than I had thought.. |
| 19:38:11 | Jayce^ | hehe |
| 19:38:27 | HarleyPig | What does |f| print f, " " do? |
| 19:38:40 | brailsmt | HarleyPig: huh? |
| 19:38:56 | han_solo | |f| is how you get the parameters to your code block |
| 19:39:02 | HarleyPig | In the example on that last url, it's the block after the fibUpTo call. |
| 19:39:02 | brailsmt | [1,2,3].each {|f| print f, " " } |
| 19:39:26 | HarleyPig | Prints 1 2 3 right? |
| 19:39:30 | han_solo | right |
| 19:39:31 | HarleyPig | What's the |f|? |
| 19:39:33 | levi_ | Here's 'hello world' in CLU, using the yield keyword: http://www2.latech.edu/~acm/helloworld/clu.html |
| 19:39:34 | HarleyPig | Oh! |
| 19:39:44 | HarleyPig | The same as my $f = shift; ? |
| 19:39:47 | brailsmt | the "|f|" names the variable and then "print f, " "" prints the var than a space |
| 19:39:52 | han_solo | right |
| 19:40:29 | han_solo | ok, my 330 is rusty. where do thunks fit into all this? |
| 19:40:40 | levi_ | Iterators basically have a built-in argument that takes an anonymous procecure that you can apply using yield. |
| 19:40:41 | HarleyPig | So yield in the example (the first time through) is 1 { |f|, print f, " " } |
| 19:40:46 | HarleyPig | which prints 1 |
| 19:40:49 | HarleyPig | Right? |
| 19:40:59 | brailsmt | yes |
| 19:41:06 | HarleyPig | Ah. |
| 19:41:15 | brailsmt | the syntax is wrong, but you get the idea |
| 19:42:12 | han_solo | def threeTimes |
| 19:42:12 | han_solo | yield |
| 19:42:12 | han_solo | yield |
| 19:42:12 | han_solo | yield |
| 19:42:12 | han_solo | end |
| 19:42:16 | han_solo | threeTimes { puts "Hello" } |
| 19:42:16 | brailsmt | but you can do anything in the code block, not just print |
| 19:42:16 | han_solo | produces: |
| 19:42:18 | han_solo | Hello |
| 19:42:21 | han_solo | Hello |
| 19:42:22 | han_solo | Hello |
| 19:42:32 | han_solo | there's an example without parameters. you could do that with eval |
| 19:42:44 | levi_ | The question is, in what context does the code block execute? |
| 19:42:59 | han_solo | that's the question - in ruby it's the context of the code block |
| 19:43:11 | han_solo | i.e. your code block gets all local variables etc. where it is defined |
| 19:43:23 | brailsmt | levi_: it's own context |
| 19:43:28 | brailsmt | it is a closure |
| 19:43:35 | han_solo | I haven't been able to figure out whether perl does that or not |
| 19:43:42 | han_solo | right-o, more correct brailsmt. |
| 19:44:06 | levi_ | OK, so a lambda function is a closure, too. Why not just use LISP? :) |
| 19:44:06 | brailsmt | irb(main):013:0> def example |
| 19:44:06 | brailsmt | irb(main):014:1> yield |
| 19:44:06 | brailsmt | irb(main):015:1> yield |
| 19:44:06 | brailsmt | irb(main):016:1> end |
| 19:44:06 | brailsmt | nil |
| 19:44:06 | brailsmt | irb(main):017:0> a = 0 |
| 19:44:10 | brailsmt | 0 |
| 19:44:12 | brailsmt | irb(main):018:0> example { a += 4 } |
| 19:44:14 | brailsmt | 8 |
| 19:44:16 | han_solo | heh. LISP can do the closure stuff yes |
| 19:44:18 | brailsmt | irb(main):019:0> p a |
| 19:44:22 | brailsmt | 8 |
| 19:44:28 | han_solo | but that's a lot of parenthesis, and you don't have the other oo stuff |
| 19:44:28 | brailsmt | sure, you can use lisp... |
| 19:44:33 | brailsmt | feel free |
| 19:44:35 | levi_ | I don't see what's so cool and innovative about this. |
| 19:44:38 | brailsmt | I'll stick with ruby... :) |
| 19:44:47 | han_solo | it's not innovative - lisp and clu have been doing it for years |
| 19:45:01 | han_solo | but it doesn't exist in most other languages |
| 19:45:18 | brailsmt | matz basically included the best of the languages that already existed into one language |
| 19:45:30 | Jayce^ | sounds ike perl.. |
| 19:45:32 | levi_ | It's funny how procedural programmers get these little bits of LISP and think it's the greatest, but won't touch the real thing with a 10-ft pole. |
| 19:45:40 | han_solo | I've touched the real thing |
| 19:45:47 | han_solo | and I like it |
| 19:45:52 | han_solo | esp. this closure stuff |
| 19:45:55 | han_solo | but it's easier in ruby |
| 19:45:56 | brailsmt | so it is the combination of many things that make ruby so good, not just a few, but we where discussing yield to help clarify what it is |
| 19:46:17 | brailsmt | yeah, but ruby also included some of the best things from perl |
| 19:46:28 | brailsmt | and some not so good things from perl, like $_ |
| 19:46:41 | Jayce^ | yeah, and just wait for the rest of perl 6 :D ruby was written after perl 5 |
| 19:46:46 | levi_ | Ew, $_ |
| 19:47:01 | han_solo | heh. but will perl6 be recognizable? |
| 19:47:02 | Jayce^ | hey, default is very useful :D |
| 19:47:03 | HarleyPig | I like $_ |
| 19:47:10 | HarleyPig | and @_ |
| 19:47:13 | HarleyPig | and %_ |
| 19:47:19 | brailsmt | yeah, and you are perl programmer... |
| 19:47:24 | HarleyPig | :] |
| 19:47:28 | Jayce^ | han_solo: of course.. one of the main rfc's... keep perl as perl.. |
| 19:48:08 | brailsmt | ruby is doing rather for a language that has only been in the US since 2000 |
| 19:48:18 | brailsmt | ..rather well... |
| 19:48:20 | brailsmt | that is |
| 19:48:30 | brailsmt | it is catching on quickly |
| 19:49:22 | han_solo | i'm still interested in knowing whether perl has true closures. anyone? |
| 19:49:48 | brailsmt | as far as i know it doesn't |
| 19:49:50 | HarleyPig | Google choked!! Search for perl one-liner fibonacci and I get an entry in a Python cookbook!? |
| 19:49:52 | Jayce^ | yeah... there was an article on perl.com not too long ago about closures.. |
| 19:49:54 | brailsmt | but I am no perl monger |
| 19:50:08 | HarleyPig | brailsmt: I'm not sure. |
| 19:50:21 | HarleyPig | What do you mean by a 'true closure'? |
| 19:50:23 | Jayce^ | HarleyPig: yeah, because everybody knows that no python person can talk without mentioning their opinion of perl.. |
| 19:50:30 | HarleyPig | :> |
| 19:50:57 | Jayce^ | kinda like a postgres guy.. he can't say more than two sentences without puttin mysql down.. :D |
| 19:51:42 | brailsmt | or an fbsd person, can't speak without putting down linux |
| 19:51:50 | Jayce^ | exactly.. |
| 19:51:58 | han_solo | or a java person... |
| 19:52:00 | levi_ | Heres' a paper on the history of CLU, if anyone's interested: http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/pubs/pdf/MIT-LCS-TR-561.pdf |
| 19:52:31 | brailsmt | is it easy to write C code and use it from perl? |
| 19:52:55 | Jayce^ | more than one way to do it :D XS, or Inline both work |
| 19:52:58 | HarleyPig | Uh, yes and no. XS sucks rocks. Through a very small and weak straw. |
| 19:53:03 | HarleyPig | Inline works pretty good. |
| 19:53:14 | Jayce^ | there is another way.. I forget it's name.. |
| 19:53:15 | brailsmt | hrmm |
| 19:53:19 | brailsmt | swig? |
| 19:53:26 | Jayce^ | yeah, that one. |
| 19:54:14 | brailsmt | swig is non languiage specific |
| 19:54:19 | brailsmt | you can use it for ruby too |
| 19:54:30 | brailsmt | btw, perl doens't have closures |
| 19:54:32 | Jayce^ | yeah |
| 19:54:40 | Jayce^ | that's what makes it wasier for some people.. |
| 19:54:47 | Jayce^ | I'd suggest Inline:: though.. |
| 19:54:47 | brailsmt | wasier? |
| 19:54:52 | Jayce^ | umm.. yeah.. |
| 19:54:57 | brailsmt | way easier? |
| 19:55:00 | Jayce^ | s/w/e/; |
| 19:55:18 | Jayce^ | stupid keys are too close while I'm multitasking :D |
| 19:55:49 | brailsmt | seanc: does perl have an equiv of yeild? |
| 19:55:59 | seanc | shakes head, no |
| 19:56:15 | seanc | writing recursive functions that return values is as good as you can get |
| 19:57:11 | han_solo | here's a good example of closure |
| 19:57:15 | Jayce^ | you can map too.. |
| 19:57:24 | han_solo | a=0 |
| 19:57:24 | han_solo | [1,2,3,4,5].each {|i| a+= i; print a, " "} |
| 19:57:44 | brailsmt | han_solo: or... |
| 19:57:45 | han_solo | gives 1 3 6 10 15 |
| 19:58:11 | brailsmt | [1,2,3,4,5].each {|i| a+= i; print a, " "; b = 0; p b += 1} |
| 19:58:18 | brailsmt | p b |
| 19:58:21 | seanc | that's just an iterator... a closure is a scoped block that's attached to an class or instance method |
| 19:58:21 | HarleyPig | map { print a+$_ } 1 .. 5 |
| 19:58:38 | seanc | File.open('foo.txt') { |f| puts f.readline } |
| 19:58:52 | HarleyPig | Ah. |
| 19:58:57 | seanc | that's a closure because at the end of the block, f closes itself |
| 19:59:04 | han_solo | oh, I thought that's how iterators were implemented |
| 19:59:05 | seanc | that should be readlines |
| 19:59:08 | HarleyPig | Yes, perl has closure, but only as a final resort. |
| 19:59:13 | seanc | example? |
| 19:59:20 | seanc | closer = scope in perl |
| 19:59:44 | HarleyPig | if ( open F, "<file" ) { print while <> } |
| 20:00:01 | HarleyPig | will close the F filehandle as the interpreter is shutting down. |
| 20:00:15 | HarleyPig | uh s/<>/<file>/ |
| 20:00:47 | seanc | ! that's scope though, not a true closure |
| 20:00:50 | brailsmt | but when the interpreter is shut down, not when the code block exits |
| 20:00:52 | seanc | try this on for size |
| 20:00:56 | HarleyPig | correct |
| 20:01:08 | HarleyPig | So, like I said, yes but only as a last resort. |
| 20:01:35 | HarleyPig | You have to manually close F when you are done with it if you want it closed during program execution. |
| 20:01:39 | seanc | my $a; if (open F, "<file") { $a = \<>; print while <>; } |
| 20:01:43 | HarleyPig | But there are ways around that as well. |
| 20:01:46 | seanc | print ref($a); |
| 20:01:52 | seanc | $a will still be open |
| 20:02:11 | HarleyPig | When the interpreter shuts down $a will be closed. |
| 20:02:14 | seanc | in Ruby it wouldn't because the closure makes sure it closes it |
| 20:02:17 | HarleyPig | That's what I'm saying. |
| 20:02:27 | seanc | err.. when $a goes out of scope |
| 20:02:38 | seanc | in mod_perl, that could be never. :~) in ruby though, it'll always happen |
| 20:02:40 | han_solo | seanc, isn't it closed because that's the way File.new is implemented? |
| 20:02:47 | HarleyPig | In that example $a wouldn't go out of scope any time soon in ruby either would it? |
| 20:03:01 | han_solo | isn't the definition of closure that it has its own environment? |
| 20:03:02 | seanc | nope, but $a in ruby would point to a closed filehandle instead |
| 20:03:44 | HarleyPig | Hmmm ... that's what I like about perl. Either you've shot yourself in the foot, or you have a good reason for wanting to do your example. |
| 20:03:45 | seanc | this becomes a big issue for database handles and such where the resource is precious |
| 20:03:52 | HarleyPig | If you wanted to do that in ruby, you couldn't. |
| 20:03:52 | seanc | ::smile:: |
| 20:03:58 | seanc | correction... |
| 20:04:03 | seanc | f = File.open('foo.txt') |
| 20:04:10 | seanc | that'll let you shoot yourself in the foot. :~) |
| 20:04:27 | brailsmt | File.open(".vimrc", "r") { |file| a = file; file.readlines } |
| 20:04:29 | brailsmt | p a |
| 20:04:30 | brailsmt | nil |
| 20:04:48 | HarleyPig | if ( open *F, "<file" ) { print while <$F> } will close the filehandle at the end of the block. |
| 20:05:43 | seanc | right, but that's because of scope... save a copy of $F in a variable that's outside of the if scope... because the file handle had its ref count incremented, it'll still be open |
| 20:05:52 | HarleyPig | Uh, no it won't. This will though. |
| 20:06:15 | HarleyPig | Wait ... sorry ... thinking of something else. |
| 20:06:23 | HarleyPig | That will go out of scope and close the filehandle. |
| 20:06:26 | han_solo | perl has closures |
| 20:06:30 | han_solo | http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2002/05/29/closure.html |
| 20:06:46 | han_solo | although I think that's different from what seanc is saying |
| 20:07:05 | Jayce^ | see ;D han_solo++; # for RTFM'ing |
| 20:07:15 | han_solo | feels like he's fighting on the wrong team |
| 20:07:46 | brailsmt | haha |
| 20:07:56 | Jayce^ | no you're just learning the truth.. half of peoples issues with perl are either misconceptions... or from examples from Matt's script archive.. |
| 20:08:00 | brailsmt | han_solo has joined the dark side |
| 20:08:10 | brailsmt | :) |
| 20:08:23 | han_solo | Jayce^: "ruby, perl is your father" |
| 20:08:40 | brailsmt | lol! |
| 20:09:07 | Jayce^ | heheh... that would be wierd.. since perl's oolder :D |
| 20:09:09 | seanc | Jayc^: I'm a long time perl hacker... 6 years actually |
| 20:09:19 | han_solo | "What's a closure? Closure is a computer science term with a precise but hard-to-explain meaning. Closures are implemented in Perl as anonymous subroutines with lasting references to lexical variables outside their own scopes. These lexicals magically refer to the variables that were around when the subroutine was defined (deep binding). " |
| 20:10:04 | han_solo | http://www.planet-source-code.com/vb/scripts/ShowCode.asp?txtCodeId=9&lngWId=6 |
| 20:10:14 | han_solo | so, perl has closures. but ruby's still better. :) |
| 20:10:42 | seanc | problem with anon-subs is that you can't define a resource going into them that should be cleaned up/closed |
| 20:10:42 | HarleyPig | :D |
| 20:10:51 | han_solo | "Note that some languages provide anonymous functions but are not capable of providing proper closures; the Python language, for example. " |
| 20:10:51 | HarleyPig | Why not? |
| 20:10:58 | han_solo | :) |
| 20:11:04 | brailsmt | han_solo++ |
| 20:11:06 | brailsmt | :) |
| 20:11:13 | han_solo | proposes we all bash python. |
| 20:11:20 | brailsmt | lol |
| 20:12:05 | han_solo | seanc, I don't see why you couldn't write a function that would behave like File.open when it's given a closure |
| 20:12:36 | seanc | entertains examples |
| 20:13:16 | han_solo | i'm not quick enough with perl... |
| 20:14:43 | han_solo | but something along the lines of this perl pseudocode |
| 20:14:51 | han_solo | ruby_open { |
| 20:14:55 | han_solo | open file |
| 20:15:02 | han_solo | eval $code file |
| 20:15:03 | han_solo | close file |
| 20:15:04 | han_solo | } |
| 20:15:23 | han_solo | no attempt was made in syntactic correctness. No animals were harmed either |
| 20:15:44 | seanc | toss a die in the middle there before the close() that's outside of the eval() |
| 20:16:04 | seanc | though that's close to what ruby does for you |
| 20:16:27 | brailsmt | and you have to write that yourself, and it only applies to files... |
| 20:16:34 | han_solo | ah, well if ruby had a die thrown into the definition of File.open that would leave the resource allocated too |
| 20:16:44 | han_solo | agreed, it's simpler and built-in in ruby |
| 20:16:53 | han_solo | but I think underneath it still is done the same. |
| 20:17:08 | seanc | actually, it'd still close it. :~) |
| 20:17:16 | brailsmt | well... underneath linux and windows have to deal with the same hardware... |
| 20:17:18 | seanc | unless ruby SEGV'ed. :~) |
| 20:18:21 | han_solo | exactly, brailsmt. I'm saying the general principle of closure is still there, (the hardware) |
| 20:18:36 | han_solo | but in real life what's on top often makes all the difference. :) |
| 20:19:24 | levi_ | Are you guys talking about some definition of 'closure' I'm not aware of? What's it got to do with hardware? |
| 20:20:03 | brailsmt | it was an analogy |
| 20:20:36 | han_solo | yeah, we have redifined closure to mean "when the cover to your computer case is on" |
| 20:20:41 | han_solo | ;) |
| 20:21:51 | levi_ | Hmm. I must have missed something. |
| 20:22:06 | han_solo | the question was whether perl has closures |
| 20:22:11 | han_solo | the answer ended up being yes |
| 20:22:25 | han_solo | with a "but it's easier in ruby" |
| 20:22:50 | levi_ | And where's the hardware analogy? |
| 20:23:23 | han_solo | <brailsmt> well... underneath linux and windows have to deal with the same hardware... |
| 20:23:37 | HarleyPig | I need to focus on this program ... be back sometime soon |
| 20:25:24 | levi_ | OK, I get it now. |
| 20:27:52 | brailsmt | welcome back levi_ |
| 20:27:54 | brailsmt | :) |
| 20:29:01 | brailsmt | you know han_solo the downloads difference between midnight.vim and desert.vim is almos in the single digits... :) |
| 20:30:04 | han_solo | maybe I should make a modification. then people will all go download the new version ;-) |
| 20:30:17 | brailsmt | anyone here gonna get season tickets for BYU football? |
| 20:30:31 | brailsmt | ohh... than I would have to follow suit... |
| 20:30:49 | brailsmt | add one to the hex value for the bg... |
| 20:30:53 | brailsmt | :) |
| 20:31:33 | brailsmt | does uug ever get tickets together? |
| 20:32:57 | brailsmt | is anyone alive anymore? |
| 20:33:01 | Jayce^ | isn't a student.. |
| 20:33:34 | brailsmt | anyone else? this is gonna be a good year |
| 20:33:49 | levi_ | isn't a football fan. |
| 20:34:24 | brailsmt | wow |
| 20:34:32 | brailsmt | blinks |
| 20:34:34 | brailsmt | :) |
| 20:36:18 | HrlyPgAway | isn't a BYU fan. |
| 20:36:27 | han_solo | isn't a football fan. futbol, otoht |
| 20:36:29 | brailsmt | alright, I am batting .000 |
| 20:36:36 | brailsmt | :) |
| 20:36:37 | HrlyPgAway | :D |
| 20:36:47 | han_solo | I might go to the new mexico game though. if it's home. ;) |
| 20:36:49 | Jayce^ | futebol |
| 20:37:13 | brailsmt | HrlyPgAway: UofU? |
| 20:38:15 | brailsmt | han_solo: new mexico has some momentum this year... |
| 20:38:25 | HrlyPgAway | http://web.mit.edu/varf-ball/www/ |
| 20:38:34 | HrlyPgAway | The Beavers |
| 20:39:31 | HrlyPgAway | I'm actually more interested in Pro (NFL), Cowboys and Broncos are my two favorite teams. |
| 20:39:59 | Jayce^ | seahawks.. |
| 20:40:00 | brailsmt | ew... |
| 20:40:05 | brailsmt | Chiefs |
| 20:40:29 | brailsmt | Cowboys are ok, I guess... |
| 20:40:41 | brailsmt | but I'll have to work on looking past the Broncos thing... |
| 20:40:42 | Jayce^ | too bad seahawks and chiefs aren't in the same division anymore.. |
| 20:40:43 | brailsmt | :) |
| 20:41:09 | HrlyPgAway | I like the 'New Applicants' section of the Beavers page: |
| 20:41:10 | brailsmt | Chiefs have had some bad years, but they have a new (good) head coach... |
| 20:41:20 | HrlyPgAway | High school athletes who might be considering MIT should be aware that admittance to MIT is primarily based on high school academic performance as well as an overall personality profile which demonstrates excellence and leadership in extracurricular activities. |
| 20:41:33 | HrlyPgAway | Jocks need not apply. |
| 20:42:48 | HrlyPgAway | I didn't know MIT bent this way: '... an active Greek system ...' |
| 20:43:25 | brailsmt | just what is a "greek system"? |
| 20:43:48 | HrlyPgAway | Well, to keep it clean, it's the soririty/fraternity stuff. |
| 20:43:50 | brailsmt | MIT teaches greek so ppl can learn the alphabet before physics classes... |
| 20:44:01 | brailsmt | is that it? |
| 20:44:18 | HrlyPgAway | But (heh) another 'greek system' involves sexual practises not usually endorsed by most religous systems. |
| 20:44:44 | brailsmt | hrmm... |
| 20:45:14 | HrlyPgAway | Ask a fart brother if he really does greek ... then run. His brothers won't be too happy with you either. |
| 20:45:25 | HrlyPgAway | Uh, that was unintentional. |
| 20:45:29 | HrlyPgAway | s/fart/frat/ |
| 20:45:47 | HrlyPgAway | Especially the RM's. |
| 20:47:07 | brailsmt | haha... |
| 20:47:18 | brailsmt | I was "what is a fart brother"? |
| 20:49:01 | HrlyPgAway | heh ... I wish I'd thought of that when I was poking fun at them. I was much younger and dumber then. |
| 20:49:05 | HrlyPgAway | shut up Jayce^ |
| 20:51:00 | Jayce^ | what? |
| 20:51:40 | HrlyPgAway | That's all right ... you just continue on with what you were doing. |
| 20:51:40 | HrlyPgAway | :> |
| 20:55:50 | Jayce^ | hehe |
| 20:55:50 | Jayce^ | fart-knocker |
| 21:00:38 | HrlyPgAway | :* |
| 21:38:05 | brailsmt | well, time to finish fellowship... |