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| 14:32.24 | macnewbold | ~rlart |
| 14:32.25 | ibot | hauls eggyknap up by the scruff of the neck and spanks him until he waddles |
| 14:32.32 | macnewbold | ouch |
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| 14:39.20 | cedwards | it's too early for that nonsense |
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| 15:02.45 | ninnypants | morning |
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| 15:18.22 | mgeary | influx: in public..?!! |
| 15:18.28 | mgeary | ~embarrass influx |
| 15:21.29 | influx | hurr |
| 15:21.33 | influx | in the living room |
| 15:21.35 | influx | no one is around |
| 15:21.37 | influx | :D |
| 15:22.02 | mgeary | you let a donkey into your living room? Everyone knows you can't woodle without a donkey |
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| 15:27.48 | mgeary | itimber has a woodling donkey, don't you, itimber? |
| 15:28.04 | carmony | .... thats an odd question to ask. |
| 15:29.01 | itimber | it's true... he won't stop woodling |
| 15:31.12 | itimber | my donkey, not necessarily influx |
| 15:31.15 | carmony | lol |
| 15:31.15 | itimber | :) |
| 15:35.36 | ninnypants | can someone help me with some ssi? |
| 15:49.54 | mgeary | sure |
| 15:50.02 | mgeary | <?php include("foo") ?> |
| 15:50.55 | cycokilr | that's a php include |
| 15:51.06 | mgeary | it's still a serverside include ;) |
| 15:51.32 | cycokilr | SSI != php include (even if it is included on the server side) |
| 15:51.52 | mgeary | ~humor cycokilr |
| 15:51.57 | cycokilr | i didn't know people still used SSI anyway |
| 15:52.06 | mgeary | that was kind of my point |
| 15:52.15 | mgeary | ninnypants: what's the issue? |
| 15:52.25 | cycokilr | well your example was syntactically incorrect anyway sucka |
| 15:52.52 | mgeary | ? |
| 15:52.53 | ninnypants | http://ninnypants.pastebin.com/xKdrTzVi |
| 15:53.02 | cycokilr | ); <-- missing semi |
| 15:53.54 | mgeary | cycokilr: you don't need that if it's the only statement in the php block |
| 15:53.59 | DexterTheDragon | the ?> implies the closing |
| 15:54.01 | ninnypants | I've got that in my .htaccess but my includes still don't work. I got the code from http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.0/howto/ssi.html and spent some time on #httpd but still haven't been able to figure anything out |
| 15:55.03 | cycokilr | oh.. wow i did not know you could leave out the semi-colon.. yet another point subtracted from php's score.. |
| 15:57.10 | cycokilr | DexterTheDragon: i don't think that changes anything about what i said though.. still syntactically incorrect according to whatever loose syntax standards php might have.. |
| 16:00.59 | mgeary | ~karma cycokilr |
| 16:00.59 | ibot | cycokilr has karma of 1 |
| 16:01.10 | mgeary | ;) |
| 16:01.18 | cycokilr | woohoo!! |
| 16:01.27 | mindjuju | ~cycokilr++ |
| 16:01.36 | mindjuju | i know you've helped me out on stuff before |
| 16:02.37 | cycokilr | it wasn't that big.. and it's not a big deal.. i just didn't know it would even work that way.. that why i said anything about it.. |
| 16:02.45 | cycokilr | php just seems kinda funny in a lot of ways.. |
| 16:03.11 | mgeary | "kinda" is gentle |
| 16:03.14 | utahcon | PHP is the crazy kid... will do anything for anyone, if the price is right |
| 16:03.20 | cycokilr | haha.. |
| 16:03.25 | carmony | LOL |
| 16:03.36 | cycokilr | yeah stderr has had some things to say about it in the past.. |
| 16:03.37 | utahcon | s/PHP/utahcon/ |
| 16:04.37 | ninnypants | http://www.abe-caloocan.cjb.net/ |
| 16:05.27 | cycokilr | oh crap, he's going to put us all out of business.. |
| 16:06.36 | ninnypants | yeah I'm worried about my job security |
| 16:06.42 | mindjuju | WOW! $47 a month for a 3 page site? |
| 16:06.50 | mindjuju | that's |
| 16:06.55 | mindjuju | like 3 linode servers |
| 16:07.36 | mgeary | jeeze |
| 16:07.57 | mgeary | seriously |
| 16:08.02 | utahcon | $97/month for 3 pages + updates! |
| 16:08.13 | utahcon | apparently people will pay it :d |
| 16:08.42 | mindjuju | there is even an $80 activation fee |
| 16:08.42 | *** join/#uphpu romanovic (~a61460f8@gateway/web/freenode/x-ehyzclzdrvkyhmcw) |
| 16:08.59 | mindjuju | as if it took $80 click a mouse button to have a site auto populate |
| 16:09.46 | ninnypants | sounds like another Heritage ... I mean HIT |
| 16:09.51 | ninnypants | just not in utah |
| 16:10.02 | mindjuju | HOLY CRAP! |
| 16:10.16 | mindjuju | All packages require web site hosting, which we can assist with setup |
| 16:10.25 | mindjuju | that money DOESN'T include the hosting |
| 16:10.29 | mindjuju | it's the retainer |
| 16:12.09 | utahcon | mindjuju: We are making money, not solutions! |
| 16:12.45 | ninnypants | it's not even a retainer you have to pay $100 to make a page change |
| 16:13.22 | utahcon | ninnypants: you better believe that is $100/change... |
| 16:13.31 | utahcon | misspelled a word 5 times? $500 |
| 16:13.48 | ninnypants | utahcon: what api are you using? |
| 16:15.01 | ninnypants | I like that their rotating banner says never pay a web designer again |
| 16:15.57 | utahcon | ninnypants: They are _not_ web designers... they are crooks! |
| 16:16.02 | utahcon | ninnypants: API is Volusion |
| 16:16.45 | ninnypants | very true. They remind me of HIT down in Provo |
| 16:17.01 | utahcon | one of my coworkers is an ex-HIT |
| 16:17.50 | ninnypants | I almost signed on at HIT but just couldn't bring myself to do it |
| 16:18.28 | mindjuju | you know the funny thing about that website |
| 16:18.34 | mindjuju | i just found it for $10 |
| 16:18.36 | mindjuju | http://www.cgiconnection.com/software |
| 16:18.48 | mindjuju | 2nd on the list |
| 16:19.19 | mindjuju | plus, you get to see the pic of the guy running the co |
| 16:19.34 | utahcon | Actual product name: Automatic Installing Software Titles For Your Website |
| 16:20.11 | mindjuju | there is picutre of the guy here |
| 16:20.12 | mindjuju | http://www.cgiconnection.com/software/1005 |
| 16:20.18 | mindjuju | about 1/5th the way down |
| 16:20.39 | utahcon | ack! |
| 16:20.44 | utahcon | that dude scared me! |
| 16:21.02 | mindjuju | yeah, you see that thing in front of him though |
| 16:21.13 | mindjuju | cgioffice crm, calendars, contacts, files, tasks |
| 16:21.18 | mindjuju | he's taking on google aps! |
| 16:21.25 | carmony | interesting data on iPhone's touchscreen vs others: http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=6352&tag=nl.e589 |
| 16:21.28 | utahcon | he is awesome! |
| 16:22.07 | utahcon | carmony: maybe I like my touchscreen less accurate? |
| 16:22.26 | mindjuju | yeah, there is even that one commercial about it |
| 16:22.28 | utahcon | no G1 or MT3G on the list? fail |
| 16:22.45 | carmony | lol, G1 is old news :P |
| 16:22.46 | carmony | ;) |
| 16:22.56 | utahcon | carmony: They didn't mention that they were drawing circles when the iPhone made straight lines :P |
| 16:23.20 | carmony | haha |
| 16:23.57 | carmony | naw, I'm excited for other phones. I think the iPhone set the standard high, but I think other phones will reach it |
| 16:25.32 | mindjuju | carmony - here is that one commercial about iphone screen senstivity |
| 16:25.35 | mindjuju | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ2ScWMi1dA |
| 16:25.41 | mindjuju | 100% No Rickroll! |
| 16:26.24 | carmony | haah, Abed! |
| 16:28.15 | carmony | do you guys watch Community? |
| 16:28.33 | mindjuju | what is it? |
| 16:29.19 | carmony | Gasp! |
| 16:29.31 | carmony | It is a show on NBC about a community college |
| 16:29.34 | carmony | very very very funny |
| 16:29.37 | carmony | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcD_Y838DXA |
| 16:30.03 | mp_ | confirmed. that show is hilarious. |
| 16:30.31 | mindjuju | that clip was funny |
| 16:30.34 | *** join/#uphpu SunSparc (~sparky@173-8-91-177-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
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| 16:30.43 | carmony | oh man, that show is SOOOO funny |
| 16:30.51 | carmony | they were smart to make it a 30 min show |
| 16:30.58 | carmony | because its jammed packed with funny |
| 16:31.19 | carmony | like if you don't pay attention, you'll miss some hilarious jokes. |
| 16:31.30 | carmony | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8kKbbdJTFA |
| 16:32.21 | mindjuju | :) |
| 16:32.27 | mindjuju | so when does this show play? |
| 16:33.13 | *** join/#uphpu supernovia (~velda@161.28.247.82) |
| 16:35.11 | carmony | um, I don't know.... the DVR does it for me :P |
| 16:35.41 | PoeticIntensity | I love Community. |
| 16:35.42 | carmony | http://www.hulu.com/community hulu has it |
| 16:35.48 | PoeticIntensity | Makes me laugh every time. |
| 16:35.57 | ninnypants | has anyone watched The League? I'm wondering if it's worth it to look for it |
| 16:36.57 | mindjuju | love xbmc |
| 16:37.15 | carmony | PoeticIntensity: you know senior chang? that actor is an actual real life doctor |
| 16:37.26 | PoeticIntensity | Serious? |
| 16:37.31 | PoeticIntensity | He's friggin' hilarious! |
| 16:38.38 | ninnypants | Any ideas on why my SSI isn't being processed? http://ninnypants.pastebin.com/xKdrTzVi |
| 16:40.15 | mindjuju | ^5 |
| 16:42.00 | supernovia | hi PoeticIntensity! long time no see |
| 16:42.52 | PoeticIntensity | Hey supernovia! I know.... I feel bad for not hanging out here much... But I'm working so much on audio stuff, (even during the day), I forget to log in! I need to remember that this place really has nothing to do with PHP... *grin* |
| 16:43.05 | supernovia | hehe |
| 16:43.05 | PoeticIntensity | I heard your brownie and games night was fun... |
| 16:43.14 | PoeticIntensity | I was in Idaho. |
| 16:43.14 | PoeticIntensity | :-( |
| 16:43.17 | supernovia | It really was. I need to do that again sometime soon |
| 16:43.42 | supernovia | what's in Idaho? |
| 16:43.56 | DexterTheDragon | potatoes |
| 16:44.03 | PoeticIntensity | Whole loads of family / cousins / etc... |
| 16:44.13 | supernovia | oh yeah? |
| 16:44.57 | mindjuju | potato yes, potato salad no |
| 16:45.02 | PoeticIntensity | Yeah... We visited a cousin I haven't seen in years.... As a kid, we used to hang out together all the time. |
| 16:45.06 | mindjuju | potato salad = mjBane |
| 16:45.06 | PoeticIntensity | it was really good seeing him and his family. |
| 16:45.12 | mindjuju | like kryptonite even |
| 16:45.53 | supernovia | but my kids both hate it so I never have it unless I'm at a bbq or something |
| 16:46.27 | supernovia | glad you got to see them, PoeticIntensity :) |
| 16:46.33 | mgeary | <3 potato salad |
| 16:46.34 | PoeticIntensity | me too.... |
| 16:46.37 | PoeticIntensity | It was some good times. |
| 16:47.33 | supernovia | mindjuju, do you dislike every kind of potato salad? |
| 16:48.06 | mindjuju | well, funny you should ask |
| 16:48.21 | mindjuju | it's not REALLY potato salad that i'm in mortal death struggle with |
| 16:48.23 | mindjuju | its mayo |
| 16:48.32 | mindjuju | so egg salad = of the devil! |
| 16:48.40 | utahcon | egg salad is the bomb! |
| 16:48.41 | mindjuju | potato salad = evil! |
| 16:48.47 | utahcon | potato salad is the bomb! |
| 16:48.57 | mindjuju | d00d, both of those are sick and wrong |
| 16:49.06 | mindjuju | that's like saying that relish tastes good |
| 16:49.06 | supernovia | the russian kind lacks mayo |
| 16:49.11 | utahcon | garden salad is the nasty-crap! unless there is ranch... then it is the bomb! |
| 16:49.18 | supernovia | hehe |
| 16:49.26 | utahcon | mindjuju: relish tastes good if you like pickles that are finely chopped |
| 16:49.30 | influx | relish does taste good |
| 16:49.34 | mindjuju | garden salad is good, i like greek salads better |
| 16:49.40 | carmony | Hmmm... think I'm going to go eat my leftover hot wings... |
| 16:49.41 | utahcon | influx likes finely chopped pickels |
| 16:49.41 | influx | egg salad is like ambrosia |
| 16:49.42 | mindjuju | relish is evil! |
| 16:50.12 | supernovia | oolahlah |
| 16:50.14 | utahcon | truth ^^ |
| 16:50.55 | utahcon | flex as in adobe? |
| 16:51.00 | utahcon | or flex as in muscles? |
| 16:51.14 | supernovia | yeah, as in this class, but sure, that too |
| 16:52.20 | supernovia | hee hee |
| 16:53.06 | utahcon | supernovia: you better think about bringing some of that up to WVC |
| 16:53.28 | influx | Know what I like that other people probably don't? |
| 16:53.42 | supernovia | hehe, actually I don't have any. I'm a starvin marvin in the adobe lab. No food here. |
| 16:53.43 | utahcon | influx: Germs? |
| 16:53.48 | supernovia | hehe |
| 16:53.52 | influx | Haw haw. |
| 16:53.59 | supernovia | what do you like influx? |
| 16:54.06 | supernovia | I loves me some spinach.. |
| 16:54.16 | influx | Nope. Pickle slices, with a dab of mayo, wrapped in a slice of ham. |
| 16:54.28 | utahcon | but is tastes great! |
| 16:54.42 | utahcon | influx: replace the ham with balogna and I am in! |
| 16:54.52 | supernovia | yeah, doesn't make me look like Olive Oyle either but I suppose that isn't such a bad thing |
| 16:54.56 | utahcon | s/balogna/bologna/ |
| 16:54.59 | influx | I'll try that next time, utahcon. |
| 16:55.09 | supernovia | I like it with cream cheese instead of mayo |
| 16:55.17 | influx | black |
| 16:55.20 | influx | s/black/blue/ |
| 16:55.33 | influx | does it have a sur-name? |
| 16:55.43 | utahcon | EZ Cheez with Bacon is the king! |
| 16:56.12 | utahcon | doh! |
| 16:56.37 | supernovia | heheh |
| 17:03.22 | mindjuju | k, i'm back |
| 17:03.59 | mindjuju | apparently, I've pushed out something live, that I had all the proper documentation to do so, except that, somebody upstream made a mistake and this doc wasn't suppose to be live, it's a different one |
| 17:04.18 | mindjuju | so now its a mad scramble to slap people around find out what the heck is giong on and get the wrong pulled and the right live |
| 17:04.21 | mindjuju | ...sigh... |
| 17:04.31 | supernovia | bah, not such good times |
| 17:05.59 | mindjuju | tiff says when i get angry, i get ice cold and extremely civil |
| 17:06.30 | mindjuju | so maybe not slap people around in the literal since, but get it hammered out and bad mouth them here :) |
| 17:07.05 | influx | mindjuju is a gentleman's gentleman. |
| 17:07.45 | mindjuju | i would imagine a gentlemen's gentlemen somebody who could find peace with potato salad |
| 17:07.53 | mindjuju | so that's a minus that i have |
| 17:08.05 | influx | gentlemen can discriminate. |
| 17:08.23 | PoeticIntensity | LOL |
| 17:08.25 | PoeticIntensity | nice. |
| 17:08.33 | mindjuju | :) |
| 17:08.35 | supernovia | hehe |
| 17:11.06 | ninnypants | mindjuju: gentelmen hit where the sleves can cover |
| 17:12.25 | ninnypants | is anybody here on forrst.com |
| 17:21.48 | PoeticIntensity | So, has their been any juice discussions in here lately on the health care bill? |
| 17:22.35 | supernovia | hehe |
| 17:23.06 | supernovia | are we allowed to talk politics here? |
| 17:24.03 | utahcon | supernovia: only if you are for/against the same things as everyone else |
| 17:24.14 | supernovia | hehe |
| 17:24.39 | supernovia | what are your thoughts, PoeticIntensity ? |
| 17:27.33 | PoeticIntensity | something has to be done to keep greed within the healthcare industry down, but this bill is gonna make taxes go through the roof. |
| 17:28.10 | PoeticIntensity | I'm no expert at all, and I'm largely ignorant of the details within the bill, but from what I've heard and studied, the math doesn't add up. at all. |
| 17:28.33 | supernovia | well, the biggest problem I have with it is that EVERYONE is largely ignorant of its details :-/ |
| 17:28.36 | PoeticIntensity | no way you can increase spending like that without getting the money somewhere. |
| 17:28.56 | PoeticIntensity | or causing the economy to suffer by just "printing more money" |
| 17:29.00 | supernovia | yeah I'm thinking it was not thought through very well at all :-/ |
| 17:29.04 | PoeticIntensity | nope. |
| 17:29.23 | mindjuju | you are allowed to talk politics here, i think mgeary was wanting to rumble a little yesterday, but nobody obliged |
| 17:29.30 | PoeticIntensity | lots of stuff doesn't make sense to me. Why go through the reconciliation process if this healthcare bill has failed for 10 years? |
| 17:29.35 | mindjuju | just no hitting beneath the belt |
| 17:29.43 | ninnypants | my worries is if we are all required to get health insurance what is that going to do to insurance prices |
| 17:29.55 | PoeticIntensity | 10 years of "trying to get something through", to me, means "the American people DON'T WANT IT" |
| 17:30.18 | PoeticIntensity | good luck to ya, mindjuju |
| 17:30.41 | mgeary | PoeticIntensity: that assumes that the unwashed masses actually have a say in the majority of legislation that gets passed |
| 17:30.54 | PoeticIntensity | not sure what that means, mgeary |
| 17:30.55 | supernovia | I am all for small changes. Like some kind of clause that insurance companies can't deny coverage for preexisting conditions |
| 17:30.58 | PoeticIntensity | "unwashed masses"? |
| 17:30.59 | mgeary | PoeticIntensity: how much do you pay YOUR lobbyist in DC? |
| 17:31.08 | PoeticIntensity | honestly, I have no idea. |
| 17:31.32 | mgeary | well, you DO have a lobbyist, right? |
| 17:31.44 | PoeticIntensity | I hope that people are engaged in the political process to some degree, but I understand that many are not. |
| 17:31.57 | mgeary | someone who's spending all kinds of money to advance your interests? |
| 17:31.57 | PoeticIntensity | mgeary, I have no idea what you're talking about, and feel you're being a bit condescending right now. |
| 17:32.00 | mgeary | :D |
| 17:32.26 | PoeticIntensity | ok.... yeah.. that makes sense... |
| 17:32.36 | mgeary | i'm just pointing out that a TON of legislation gets passed because various industries have hordes of lobbyists in DC spending money to GET that legislation passed |
| 17:32.38 | PoeticIntensity | totally agree that the whole "money for votes" thing is a bit crazy. |
| 17:33.04 | PoeticIntensity | right. |
| 17:33.11 | PoeticIntensity | that's horrible on both sides, I would imagine. |
| 17:33.17 | PoeticIntensity | republicans and democrats alike. |
| 17:33.26 | supernovia | amen |
| 17:33.38 | mgeary | and that these same industries take a bit more of that cash and do public "information" campaigns to spread Kool-Aid around to convince everyone that what these business want is also what's good for the common (wo)man |
| 17:33.46 | *** join/#uphpu TuxToaster (~TuxToaste@173-10-25-150-BusName-utah.ut.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 17:33.52 | supernovia | hi TuxToaster :) |
| 17:34.00 | TuxToaster | heya :-) |
| 17:34.05 | PoeticIntensity | my point is - why pass this thing, if it's gonna cost everyone loads more money in taxes / insurance / etc.... |
| 17:34.33 | PoeticIntensity | mgeary, you're right about that, IMO... |
| 17:34.35 | supernovia | so you know how a magician does his tricks? Keeps your focus on the wrong thing, right? I kinda think that's what's happened with the super-polarization of our political system |
| 17:34.49 | TuxToaster | supernovia: misdirection |
| 17:35.01 | mgeary | PoeticIntensity: but your premise here is that it WILL cost everyone more; you need to substantiate that |
| 17:35.16 | supernovia | people don't care what's true and what isn't, they care who says it. and I think we're all getting fairly messed up for it |
| 17:35.24 | PoeticIntensity | I don't, really... It just makes sense to me. |
| 17:35.33 | PoeticIntensity | I was upfront about being largely ignorant about this.... |
| 17:35.55 | PoeticIntensity | I haven't heard anything which makes sense to me, about Obama's claim that this won't increase taxes... |
| 17:36.05 | PoeticIntensity | How in the world can that be true? |
| 17:36.14 | PoeticIntensity | it's simple accounting. |
| 17:36.14 | DexterTheDragon | why would it raise taxes? |
| 17:36.35 | PoeticIntensity | if I increase spending by 900+ billion, it stands to reason that this extra money has to be brought in from somewhere. |
| 17:36.46 | PoeticIntensity | unless I'm missing something. |
| 17:36.51 | PoeticIntensity | ....? |
| 17:36.55 | PoeticIntensity | (which is completely possible) |
| 17:37.21 | TuxToaster | I'd love even 1 billion. :P |
| 17:37.42 | fungus | PoeticIntensity, there are other alternatives to raising taxes, each with their own problems. |
| 17:37.52 | PoeticIntensity | yeah. |
| 17:37.56 | supernovia | yeah really! if you spent a dollar per second it'd take 30 years to use it up (and a little interest would prevent that even) |
| 17:38.07 | PoeticIntensity | I also agree that healthcare is insanely corrupt..... and needs changing. |
| 17:38.23 | supernovia | okay so raising taxes or doing ____ to come up with the money; where does it come from? |
| 17:38.44 | PoeticIntensity | But this bill (seems to me), is gonna take the corruption from healthcare, and hand it over to the corrpution of the gov't. |
| 17:38.51 | supernovia | agreed PoeticIntensity - I'm just worried this bill will make it even more insanely corrupt :-S |
| 17:39.03 | mgeary | PoeticIntensity: so you trust healthcare companies more than you trust the government |
| 17:39.05 | PoeticIntensity | and for me, the public corruption is a bit more containable than gov't corruption. |
| 17:39.15 | PoeticIntensity | oh yes.... |
| 17:39.17 | PoeticIntensity | much, much, much, much more. |
| 17:39.31 | mgeary | PoeticIntensity: so why don't we have for-profit companies do things like Meat inspection, lead-paint inspection, EPA regulation |
| 17:39.43 | fungus | problem is... healthcare industry is not "the public" |
| 17:39.44 | PoeticIntensity | 1 brother, 1 sister, 4 cousins, and one 1 uncle work in healthcare as nurses or doctors... |
| 17:40.10 | PoeticIntensity | all of them say this is the wrong move, and 1 doctor says he'll quit if this bill gets passed. |
| 17:40.10 | mgeary | PoeticIntensity: i don't have a problem with doctors, it's the insurance industry i have a problem with |
| 17:40.35 | supernovia | what are the biggest problems with the insurance companies mgeary? |
| 17:40.37 | mgeary | the insurance industry has created an artificial layer between the consumer and the provider of healthcare services |
| 17:40.46 | PoeticIntensity | mgeary, I don't know why we don't have public for-profit companies running those agencies... |
| 17:40.51 | TuxToaster | personally I hate the current insurance industry, so I'm hopeful that some change will help. |
| 17:40.52 | PoeticIntensity | But I'm not against seeing what would happen. |
| 17:41.10 | supernovia | okay mgeary so now we fix that by adding another layer (government?) |
| 17:41.23 | mgeary | we're not adding another layer, really |
| 17:41.35 | mgeary | but consider this-- |
| 17:41.40 | DexterTheDragon | PoeticIntensity: because then I just pay those people a little money and sell my cheap lead paint for a hefty profit |
| 17:41.50 | supernovia | I think there are major issues with the insurance industry but this bill feels like a stab in the dark |
| 17:41.57 | mgeary | lasik eye surgery -- it's historically not been covered by insurance at all |
| 17:42.00 | TuxToaster | supernovia: supposedly it's not adding another layer as much as adding oversight (or at least that's my understanding of it) |
| 17:42.09 | PoeticIntensity | DexterTheDragon, and then people get sick, and that company goes out of business - while another one pops up claiming to do a better job. |
| 17:42.11 | mgeary | it used to be wicked expensive and possibly risky |
| 17:42.22 | PoeticIntensity | Competition / Capitalism (while being properly managed) is a great thing. |
| 17:42.30 | mgeary | look at lasik now, it's become commonplace and much, much cheaper |
| 17:42.42 | mgeary | and much less risky, as i understand it |
| 17:42.58 | mgeary | now, how many *covered* healthcare procedures have gotten much, much cheaper over time? |
| 17:43.11 | TuxToaster | mgeary: good point |
| 17:43.17 | mgeary | lasik had to go down because it wasn't being insulated by the insurance industry |
| 17:43.36 | mgeary | all these "market solutions" people believe that having insurance companies in there creates a true market solution |
| 17:43.39 | mgeary | i don't buy that |
| 17:43.45 | mgeary | that's not a free market |
| 17:43.59 | PoeticIntensity | mgeary, agreed. |
| 17:44.09 | TuxToaster | I recently had a $300 bill for putting an invisible band-aid on my kid's forehead |
| 17:44.11 | PoeticIntensity | I just think that the gov't is gonna screw it up even more. |
| 17:44.17 | mgeary | PoeticIntensity: how? |
| 17:44.21 | PoeticIntensity | TuxToaster, don't even get me started. |
| 17:44.27 | TuxToaster | they more or less coated the injury with a type of super-glue. |
| 17:44.28 | PoeticIntensity | mgeary, I don't know. I'm not an expert. It's just my opinion. |
| 17:44.28 | mgeary | the government isn't going to *provide* insurance |
| 17:44.35 | supernovia | agreed PoeticIntensity |
| 17:44.46 | mgeary | they're just going to make so insurance companies can't deny at whim |
| 17:45.01 | PoeticIntensity | I look at Social Security and other stuff (which I'm no expert in), and realize there's a chance the gov't could do something similar with healthcare. |
| 17:45.05 | supernovia | okay but then they get to justify even more ridiculous expenses right? |
| 17:45.41 | supernovia | nice :) |
| 17:45.50 | PoeticIntensity | mgeary, whenever the gov't starts something small, in my understanding, those things usually grow and become much, much more controlled than originally intended. |
| 17:46.09 | PoeticIntensity | to me, this is just a small step. |
| 17:46.13 | unum | PoeticIntensity: what do you think was in this bill? |
| 17:46.27 | influx | unum: Hard at work, I see. |
| 17:46.33 | TuxToaster | utahcon: hmm. I don't think I've ever used those. |
| 17:46.35 | supernovia | what was in the bill unum? |
| 17:46.39 | PoeticIntensity | unum, if you read the logs, you'll see that I'm almost entirely ignorant of the details of this bill. |
| 17:46.42 | utahcon | TuxToaster: I hadn't before today! |
| 17:46.45 | unum | influx: actually I've made great progress on the sample program |
| 17:46.46 | utahcon | friggin handy though! |
| 17:46.55 | PoeticIntensity | So..... |
| 17:46.55 | unum | PoeticIntensity: that you shouldn't get worked up over it |
| 17:47.03 | unum | s/that/then |
| 17:47.05 | PoeticIntensity | I'm not worked up, in all honesty. |
| 17:47.17 | PoeticIntensity | I'm just worried about what this will turn into. |
| 17:47.19 | unum | you're telling us it's going to expand to run our lives |
| 17:47.21 | influx | unum: ;D |
| 17:47.23 | PoeticIntensity | yup. |
| 17:47.32 | unum | no point getting worried over it if you don't know what it is |
| 17:47.37 | supernovia | lol |
| 17:47.41 | TuxToaster | utahcon: I'm actually surprised I haven't. I had a ton of classes that had to talk to a store of phone recordings on an FTP server... but then again I ran many of those on the machine itself. |
| 17:47.42 | PoeticIntensity | In my experience, understanding, and opinion, the gov't is much, much harder to control than the private sector is. |
| 17:47.44 | unum | you could say that about any bill |
| 17:48.03 | PoeticIntensity | as soon as they get their claws into something, it usually comes to a point where it's permanent. |
| 17:48.08 | supernovia | can't say that about many things unum |
| 17:48.09 | unum | any bill the government has every passed will expand to run your life!!! |
| 17:48.13 | supernovia | if I have cancer and I don't understand it does that mean I shouldn't worry about it? |
| 17:48.14 | TuxToaster | my kid said he would let my wife read a book while driving if they made it a law. |
| 17:48.28 | PoeticIntensity | hehe..... unum, you can't honestly say this bill is "like every other bill"... can you? |
| 17:48.36 | unum | PoeticIntensity: for all you know |
| 17:48.38 | unum | it is |
| 17:48.39 | TuxToaster | didn't matter whether or not it was a good idea, he just wanted to make sure it wasn't against the law. |
| 17:48.44 | PoeticIntensity | I know a bit more than that. |
| 17:48.52 | unum | doesn't sound like it |
| 17:49.01 | PoeticIntensity | that's fine. You can think what ya want. |
| 17:49.03 | supernovia | unum, what's in the bill? :) |
| 17:49.10 | PoeticIntensity | I was having a good conversation with mgeary |
| 17:49.32 | supernovia | and is the logic here, don't know so we shouldn't care? It's a pretty complicated thing and (unlike the senators) I don't have full time hours to study the thing |
| 17:49.33 | PoeticIntensity | mgeary seems to be both highly biased and highly intelligent, so I care about what he has to say. |
| 17:49.36 | unum | supernovia: reforms to existing goverment health care programs like medicare and medicaid |
| 17:49.45 | supernovia | Ohhhh so that expains it. |
| 17:49.59 | unum | supernovia: the logic is that you should care and you should know about it |
| 17:50.27 | unum | I'm bothered by people telling me I should be afraid, but then not telling me which parts I should be afraid of |
| 17:50.32 | TuxToaster | supernovia: sad thing is, I'm not even convinced that many of the senators spend full time hours on it. |
| 17:50.35 | supernovia | Okay so I have a pretty good stack of papers in my house, all in legalease. They're about .. oh, 100 pages long |
| 17:50.36 | PoeticIntensity | well... looks like unum's attitude has destroyed this conversation for me.... See ya'll later. |
| 17:50.51 | supernovia | and they all involve just four people and a few items |
| 17:51.02 | mgeary | let me tell you this: our company premiums to cover a family with decent insurance are in excess of $900 a month, and our rates keep going up. No one has made any significant (> $1000) claims in years, yet we got a 20% mark-up last year alone |
| 17:51.07 | unum | PoeticIntensity: I just asked you to explain which parts you were scared of |
| 17:51.17 | unum | and you said you didn't know enough about it to answer that question |
| 17:51.49 | supernovia | have you looked at the bill unum? |
| 17:51.50 | unum | mgeary: which parts of this bill do you think will lead to lower premiums? |
| 17:51.55 | unum | supernovia: yes |
| 17:51.59 | supernovia | have you read it all? |
| 17:52.03 | mgeary | i think the best way to get everyone excited about healthcare reform is to make everyone get a personal health insurance policy |
| 17:52.18 | unum | supernovia: of course not, but I've read many summaries by groups that have |
| 17:52.28 | TuxToaster | mgeary: the bad part about that is the word 'make'. |
| 17:52.32 | mgeary | unum: well, first of all, as a small business, it appears that we may qualify for a 50% tax credit on the premiums we pay for our employees |
| 17:52.33 | supernovia | cause even 100 pages of legalese on my own life is enough to make my head spen |
| 17:52.33 | unum | I'm not as paranoid as the rest of you, about the media being out to get me |
| 17:52.38 | supernovia | s/spen/spin/ |
| 17:52.44 | TuxToaster | mgeary: people don't like to be forced into stuff. |
| 17:52.57 | mgeary | TuxToaster: i'm not being serious, but if you've had to deal with a personal insurance policy, you'd know a bit more of the pain i've gone through |
| 17:53.01 | DexterTheDragon | TuxToaster: I'm forced to buy auto insurance |
| 17:53.02 | PoeticIntensity | mgeary, we do have a personal policy. |
| 17:53.08 | supernovia | let along a gigantic bill. and i don't subscribe to the "if you don't understand it, just don't worry about it" method |
| 17:53.24 | mgeary | PoeticIntensity: okay, now have your wife have a heart condition and just sit back and watch what happens |
| 17:53.31 | PoeticIntensity | hehe... I can imagine. |
| 17:53.34 | PoeticIntensity | we're having a baby... |
| 17:53.36 | unum | mgeary: my #1 complaint about the plan is that it pushes people more towards employers plans instead of personal plans |
| 17:53.41 | PoeticIntensity | our policy covers exactly 0% of it. |
| 17:53.43 | TuxToaster | DexterTheDragon: yes, but on a state level, and then only IF you drive. ( I agree, I hate having it) |
| 17:53.44 | mgeary | unum: but it doesn't |
| 17:53.53 | unum | that's what I liked about bennets plan, was it pushed people towards personal policies |
| 17:54.03 | PoeticIntensity | but, we're finding there are ways around the insurance "necessity" |
| 17:54.05 | TuxToaster | DexterTheDragon: but I think people would hate it more if the government forced EVERYONE to buy insurance without any conditions |
| 17:54.09 | mgeary | the whole point of an insurance exchange is to create an environment where you get insurance *independent* of your employer |
| 17:54.12 | unum | mgeary: it give business tax penalities and even punishes them if they don't offer plans |
| 17:54.29 | unum | and you can only get the personal plans if you can't get a group plan |
| 17:54.35 | utahcon | CS5 Content Aware... OMG I want! |
| 17:55.03 | TuxToaster | mgeary: here, we do a "reimbursement" for insurance, but apparently the insurance companies aren't liking that idea either. |
| 17:55.12 | unum | from what I've read you can only use the exchange if you don't have an employer option |
| 17:55.24 | PoeticIntensity | TuxToaster, me too.... |
| 17:55.41 | TuxToaster | unum: I wonder if a reimbursement would count as an employer option |
| 17:55.43 | PoeticIntensity | One of hte questions they asked us when getting signed up for personal insurance is "Is your employer compensating you for this policy?" |
| 17:55.48 | unum | TuxToaster: I hope so |
| 17:55.51 | mgeary | TuxToaster: yeah, you're not supposed to reimburse insurance costs. You can get into trouble for that |
| 17:56.02 | TuxToaster | that's what I've been wondering. |
| 17:56.20 | TuxToaster | one of the other guys tried to get a policy and was told that it wasn't cool. |
| 17:56.37 | TuxToaster | I don't really see why it's a big deal though. |
| 17:56.57 | TuxToaster | if the company doesn't qualify for a group plan, but wants to help out with costs, what else can they do? |
| 17:57.18 | PoeticIntensity | TuxToaster, I think that has everything to do with the corruption within the insurance monolith... |
| 17:57.24 | PoeticIntensity | They like the power / profit they're getting. |
| 17:57.32 | unum | the problem is companies like mine that have a group plan allow the health people to buy private insuarance for cheaper rates |
| 17:57.39 | unum | and just leave us sick people the group plan |
| 17:57.39 | influx | Why do the insurance companies poopoo on employee compensation? |
| 17:57.41 | mgeary | compare all this to homeowner's (fire) insurance. The reason it works is because in a given year, most people's houses DON'T burn down. That paradigm just doesn't really apply to health insurance, because there's such a spectrum of events which fall under the health insurance umbrella |
| 17:58.03 | TuxToaster | agreed |
| 17:58.06 | PoeticIntensity | never thought of it that way, mgeary |
| 17:58.09 | PoeticIntensity | very good point. |
| 17:58.19 | mgeary | and when you factor in that an ins. company can deny someone when they get "too needy", it's just asking for problems |
| 17:58.29 | PoeticIntensity | also - there's a better chance of people getting sick than a house burning down. |
| 17:58.35 | supernovia | how would you ideally handle it mgeary? |
| 17:58.42 | mgeary | i wish i knew |
| 17:58.50 | supernovia | and yeah that definitely IS the problem.. |
| 17:58.54 | TuxToaster | what I really don't like with insurance companies is the ability for them to decide what to pay on a whim. |
| 17:58.55 | unum | I don't think there is a perfect system |
| 17:59.09 | TuxToaster | my wife and I had *identical* policies from different employers. |
| 17:59.17 | TuxToaster | from BCBS |
| 17:59.23 | mgeary | i like the theory of a catastrophic policy that covers the equivalent of your house burning down, and maybe paying out-of-pocket for 'normal' things, just like you pay for a plumber or an electrician |
| 17:59.34 | PoeticIntensity | TuxToaster, according to my healthcare-employed family, that is 100% the case... |
| 17:59.46 | PoeticIntensity | The insurance is completely in control of what the hospitals can charge. |
| 17:59.46 | unum | mgeary: I think there are a lot of advantages to that system |
| 18:00.03 | TuxToaster | I could go to an IHC instacare, pay $20-$30 for a copay, and not have to pay another cent on the visit. Yet my wife would go to the same instacare, pay the copay, and then get a bill saying the insurance only covered -- get this : $2.54 of the costs. |
| 18:00.04 | unum | it's nice that you actually create market systems for routine health care |
| 18:00.13 | PoeticIntensity | mgeary, not a bad solution... |
| 18:00.14 | mgeary | but i do think you still need to provide some fallback for people who can't afford to hire a plumber, as it were. A nation as advanced as ours shouldn't let someone die in the gutter just because they're poor. |
| 18:00.19 | TuxToaster | and this happened on every visit she went to. |
| 18:00.28 | unum | mgeary: agreed as well |
| 18:00.30 | PoeticIntensity | with our personal policy, we're finding that working directly with the hospitals for normal things is very easy... |
| 18:00.50 | PoeticIntensity | We can easily get a 50% discount on most things we go in for... and for us, that ends up being a very reasonable price. |
| 18:01.02 | mgeary | PoeticIntensity: tell you what. You're expecting a baby. Do this, drop your insurance, and then try to get it back before the baby comes due |
| 18:01.15 | TuxToaster | PoeticIntensity: quite seriously, we just refused to pay the bills. They couldn't give us a good reason why they didn't cover it, so I couldn't give them a good reason why I should pay it. |
| 18:01.21 | supernovia | that's what I want to do.. and now I don't think I'll be able to |
| 18:01.21 | supernovia | but it isn't really a market system unum |
| 18:01.37 | unum | supernovia: currently it's not |
| 18:01.51 | unum | but if you only have catastrophic then the basic ones would be |
| 18:02.00 | unum | right now I have no idea what my doctor charges |
| 18:02.03 | unum | I didn't care |
| 18:02.04 | TuxToaster | that'll fix it. |
| 18:02.06 | unum | and istill don't |
| 18:02.40 | TuxToaster | I currently have no insurance. |
| 18:02.41 | PoeticIntensity | mgeary, yeah... Well... I'm not sure if we could get the same insurance, but to me it seems like a moot point because they're not covering ANYTHING of the pregnancy, midwives visits, or birth, or after birth things, either. |
| 18:02.58 | mgeary | PoeticIntensity: ah, THAT's because you have a personal policy |
| 18:03.03 | mgeary | they rarely cover maternity |
| 18:03.08 | PoeticIntensity | but.... what they WILL cover are things that go wrong in the birth... |
| 18:03.15 | mgeary | well... |
| 18:03.16 | influx | <- no insurance. Healthy (and dumb) as an ox. |
| 18:03.20 | PoeticIntensity | like... if any complications occur, the insurance kicks in. |
| 18:03.26 | mgeary | right |
| 18:03.40 | mgeary | hopefully |
| 18:03.56 | mgeary | basically, what they do is have a $5000 deductible for maternity |
| 18:04.03 | PoeticIntensity | Well... They say it does, and it's documented it does, so.... if they say it doesn't, we've got an arsenal of refutation. |
| 18:04.10 | mgeary | so if something goes >$5k wrong, they kick in |
| 18:04.17 | mgeary | but you're on your own for up to that first $5k |
| 18:04.20 | TuxToaster | I still think deductables are messed up |
| 18:04.25 | PoeticIntensity | ee...... not sure about that, because we asked that exact question. |
| 18:04.29 | supernovia | a doctor _has_ to charge a fixed ammount, even on cash pay, if they're going to take medicaid patients |
| 18:04.31 | supernovia | I got insurance for the kids last spring (CHIP) |
| 18:04.31 | PoeticIntensity | we've had 2 personal plans.... |
| 18:04.32 | supernovia | and then found out my kid has epilepsy |
| 18:04.36 | PoeticIntensity | our first one was exactly what you say... |
| 18:04.54 | PoeticIntensity | this one has no deductible, no coverage, nothing for "normal" birth. |
| 18:05.16 | TuxToaster | supernovia: kind of. In my experience ( this may have changed in the last few years ) the doctors could actually charge more, but medicaid would only cover a specific amount. |
| 18:05.23 | TuxToaster | then the doctor just wrote off the rest |
| 18:06.17 | supernovia | Oh they can charge more but they're not allowed to charge less |
| 18:06.18 | PoeticIntensity | yeah... So far, we're getting a 50% discount for midwives..... |
| 18:06.22 | TuxToaster | at least that's how I understood it. I remember seeing bills for what the office charged vs what medicaid covered and the amounts being different |
| 18:06.25 | PoeticIntensity | and we're pretty confident we can get the same from the hospital... |
| 18:06.27 | TuxToaster | supernovia: ah ok |
| 18:06.36 | PoeticIntensity | it'll still be a pretty hefty bill, but... Much more manageable.. |
| 18:06.58 | supernovia | because of the government :) |
| 18:06.58 | supernovia | the bottom price for a doctor's visit is regulated by medicaid so there really isn't the same type of competition that would allow prices to lower (like Lasik's did) |
| 18:07.25 | mgeary | how can someone take advantage of CHIP and then say they don't trust the government to provide healthcare management? |
| 18:07.58 | supernovia | medicaid pricing, as i understand it, also affects the cost of q-tips and bandaids and everything else you have to get from the hospital. don't quote me on that, but that's what I'd understood anyhow. |
| 18:08.25 | supernovia | That's a curious question, mgeary |
| 18:08.30 | PoeticIntensity | mgeary, that was low. |
| 18:08.36 | mgeary | it wasn't intended to be low |
| 18:08.42 | PoeticIntensity | Two totally different things, IMO. |
| 18:08.47 | mgeary | i'm just saying, CHIP is a great example of what the government can do for healthcare |
| 18:08.51 | mgeary | CHIP is a fantastic program |
| 18:09.14 | supernovia | Well, I won't take it as low. If you've dealt with any government health insurance program, you can see why them getting their hands into EVERY program is not the best idea |
| 18:09.15 | mgeary | do you think that some "death panel" will come after your child because s/he is on CHIP? |
| 18:09.25 | mgeary | supernovia: i have |
| 18:09.30 | mgeary | my wife was on the Utah HIP for years |
| 18:09.39 | *** join/#uphpu romanovic (~a61460f8@gateway/web/freenode/x-ofkpsoswfqybbzmp) |
| 18:09.48 | mgeary | and while it was expensive, it was insurance, when we couldn't get it from anyone else, and it was good quality insurance |
| 18:09.58 | mgeary | and it was provided/administered by BlueCross/BlueShield |
| 18:10.06 | mgeary | but it was made available by the government |
| 18:10.11 | mgeary | where's the problem in that? |
| 18:10.18 | PoeticIntensity | my apologies for my remark... If it wasn't intended that way, it was my bad. |
| 18:10.43 | supernovia | well I could have easily taken it that way so thanks PoeticIntensity :) |
| 18:10.49 | supernovia | what's this "death panel" thing though? :-/ |
| 18:10.55 | mgeary | my wife has had open heart surgery twice. You can't *start* to talk about open-heart surgery for less than 120 THOUSAND dollars |
| 18:11.18 | PoeticIntensity | yup. |
| 18:11.32 | PoeticIntensity | healthcare is just a messy deal... |
| 18:11.46 | supernovia | it is an enormously messy deal |
| 18:12.01 | mgeary | supernovia: a lot of vehement opposition to the current healthcare legislation goes around scaremongering that there will be some panel of government androids that will tell you "your child must die, it's not worth it to cover his treatment" |
| 18:12.06 | PoeticIntensity | because it's not inexpensive to create doctors... |
| 18:12.09 | supernovia | and mgeary I am glad your wife had that program available |
| 18:12.31 | supernovia | Hmm, well, mgeary |
| 18:12.42 | influx | Everyone: Unicorn Chaser. |
| 18:13.06 | supernovia | Here's where I sit on this issue. I don't know what the heck to think. My nephew had SCIDS. (bubble boy syndrome.) Extremely sick kid. He won't ever be able to buy private insurance without some reform. |
| 18:13.31 | supernovia | On the other hand, he had a somewhat experimental kind of bone marrow transplant that saved his life |
| 18:14.01 | supernovia | (I should say he WAS an extremely sick kid. He's doing quite well now.) |
| 18:14.44 | supernovia | So if that had happened under the new system, would some robot show up and kill him? that's just silly. |
| 18:15.35 | supernovia | But would some unfeeling bureaucrat make the decision as to whether he gets a transplant or not? While, granted, he could have easily been denied by his health insurance provider at the time... |
| 18:15.41 | supernovia | he wasn't |
| 18:15.50 | mgeary | ah |
| 18:15.57 | mgeary | and i'm glad for that |
| 18:16.01 | supernovia | I'm glad for it too |
| 18:16.12 | TuxToaster | hmm... apparently my coworkers decided to turn on Dr. Horrible... |
| 18:16.17 | supernovia | And again with the yeah, I'm on CHIP thing |
| 18:16.25 | mgeary | but considering that the primary motive of an insurance company is to make profit, do you really want them making decisions like that? |
| 18:16.34 | supernovia | or the kids are anyway.. I would like to get to the point where we don't have to be |
| 18:16.37 | uxp | The government will have no say as to what treatments you can or cannot have, besides treatments that are deemed, in advance, to be cosmetic. |
| 18:17.00 | supernovia | As opposed to the primary motivation of a politician: to stay in power? |
| 18:17.13 | PoeticIntensity | both sides of the coin, for sure. |
| 18:17.32 | mgeary | well, assuming it *was* an elected politician who was making that call, there's a LOT more accountability in the system for him than for an insurance exec. |
| 18:17.37 | DexterTheDragon | the polotician isn't running your healthcare, they are forcing the company to provide it |
| 18:17.48 | mgeary | show me a politician that condemns a child to death and then gets elected |
| 18:18.07 | supernovia | but yeah with CHIP, I was hoping that as soon as I _____ we could go back to either paying out of pocket or get a high deductible health insurance policy |
| 18:18.17 | mgeary | but as DexterTheDragon says, the politicians don't really make these kind of decisions directly |
| 18:18.27 | supernovia | it only matters if anyone finds out, mgeary :( |
| 18:18.34 | supernovia | Well, right, they don;t |
| 18:19.11 | PoeticIntensity | My bottom line (gotta run to lunch)... Healthcare is messy. I like small gov't. Gov't in healthcare will make it bigger. |
| 18:19.15 | supernovia | but who does? the likes of the people at the DMV? |
| 18:19.53 | mgeary | PoeticIntensity: i'm not sure you have any precedent for knowing what small government is like. It certainly hasn't been small in any of our lifetimes... |
| 18:19.58 | PoeticIntensity | maybe get rid of insurance all together, and let people deal directly with the hospitals...? |
| 18:20.04 | mgeary | so you like the *idea* of small government |
| 18:20.09 | PoeticIntensity | mgeary, point taken. |
| 18:20.14 | PoeticIntensity | I *love* the idea of small gov't. |
| 18:20.28 | supernovia | hehe, me too |
| 18:20.40 | PoeticIntensity | thanks for obliging me, mgeary |
| 18:20.42 | supernovia | lol utahcon |
| 18:20.46 | PoeticIntensity | I really do enjoy discussing things with ya. |
| 18:21.11 | mgeary | good to chat, PoeticIntensity, it's been a while |
| 18:21.16 | PoeticIntensity | agreed. |
| 18:23.09 | supernovia | I enjoy thinking out of the box when it comes to political issues |
| 18:23.38 | supernovia | so it's nice to hear a civil debate :) |
| 18:24.27 | mindjuju | so did ya'll finish duking it out? |
| 18:24.35 | mindjuju | what did ya'll figure out? |
| 18:24.48 | TuxToaster | I say just send Captain Hammer to fix it. |
| 18:24.59 | mindjuju | love cap hammer |
| 18:25.01 | supernovia | that PoeticIntensity likes the idea of small government |
| 18:25.09 | mindjuju | ah |
| 18:25.37 | TuxToaster | lol. Such a lengthy discussion to figure that out :P |
| 18:25.43 | supernovia | and that healthcare is complicated :-p |
| 18:25.49 | stderr | dang it. |
| 18:26.24 | supernovia | oh, and that the bill has reforms to existing goverment health care programs like medicare and medicaid :-p |
| 18:26.39 | mindjuju | did you miss all the arguing stderr? |
| 18:26.47 | stderr | Must've. |
| 18:27.11 | mindjuju | i've been dealing with a fiasco here, didn't get to participate either, |
| 18:27.11 | supernovia | I should have brought lunch :-0 |
| 18:27.18 | supernovia | how'd that go mindjuju? |
| 18:27.20 | mindjuju | still going on though, so i'm bogged down with that for a while |
| 18:27.30 | supernovia | ah. |
| 18:27.45 | mindjuju | yeah, i'm beyond words right now |
| 18:27.55 | TuxToaster | supernovia is a starvin marvin <--- I'd have thought you is a starvin supernovia :P |
| 18:28.15 | supernovia | hehe |
| 18:28.29 | supernovia | but the name sticks :) |
| 18:28.36 | TuxToaster | for a long time my kid would get mad if someone said starvin marvin, because he "isn't a marvin" |
| 18:28.49 | TuxToaster | now he says it himself |
| 18:28.54 | mgeary | stderr: missed you |
| 18:28.57 | supernovia | hehe, I love kids |
| 18:29.14 | TuxToaster | ditto |
| 18:30.35 | TuxToaster | I can't wait for our PHP migration here. |
| 18:30.57 | TuxToaster | so tired of messing with this old code. hehe |
| 18:34.28 | supernovia | hehe |
| 18:36.48 | TuxToaster | essentially working towards rewriting our whole app into PHP |
| 18:37.08 | mgeary | TuxToaster: so what you're really saying... |
| 18:37.22 | mgeary | ...is that you've missed a golden opportunity to migrate your app to Django |
| 18:37.28 | TuxToaster | lol. |
| 18:37.40 | TuxToaster | The Python boat sailed already I'm afraid. |
| 18:37.49 | mgeary | 12:36:53:mgeary@ate:~$ uptime |
| 18:37.49 | mgeary | 12:36 up 92 days, 22:15, 9 users, load averages: 0.31 0.24 0.23 |
| 18:38.04 | mgeary | i think it's time to reboot my desktop computer. 92 days up and i think it's tired |
| 18:38.24 | TuxToaster | though we were headed towards using bottle.py, django didn't fit really well. |
| 18:38.25 | DexterTheDragon | pffft |
| 18:38.40 | DexterTheDragon | 92 days is weak |
| 18:38.42 | mgeary | TuxToaster: and PHP fit better? why is that? |
| 18:38.59 | mgeary | DexterTheDragon: 92 days is weak for a server. but how long has *your* desktop machine been up? |
| 18:39.26 | DexterTheDragon | currently 31 days cause we moved. previously around 250 |
| 18:39.33 | TuxToaster | lol |
| 18:40.18 | TuxToaster | I'm only at about 2 1/2 days right now. |
| 18:40.41 | TuxToaster | was at about 60ish before. |
| 18:43.27 | TuxToaster | mgeary: most of the reason that ship sailed is because the developer that was most familiar with Python quit |
| 18:43.30 | TuxToaster | :-) |
| 18:43.33 | mgeary | heh |
| 18:44.00 | TuxToaster | I didn't make the call to move to PHP, but since I'm most familiar with it, and it's WAY better than our current language (Lasso), I'm all for it. |
| 18:44.04 | supernovia | hey TuxToaster - pm? |
| 18:44.08 | TuxToaster | sure |
| 18:44.14 | mgeary | hehehe. i remember looking into Lasso... |
| 18:44.18 | mgeary | ... in 1998 |
| 18:44.31 | TuxToaster | mgeary: LOL. I want to say you've said that before. |
| 18:44.41 | mgeary | probably so |
| 18:44.41 | TuxToaster | I've ranted about it a few times on here or in the python chat. |
| 18:44.56 | mgeary | it looked pretty cool back then |
| 18:45.09 | TuxToaster | it's very capable, but poorly implemented |
| 18:47.43 | TuxToaster | our main issues with it is how inconsistently it handles errors (or fails to) |
| 18:48.04 | TuxToaster | you can have a typo that still runs sometimes and not others, or it will just cause weirdness instead of failing to even run. |
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| 19:45.46 | utahcon | hmmm |
| 19:45.55 | PoeticIntensity | deee dmmmmm |
| 19:46.01 | utahcon | ftp_put returned a false... but the server says it got the file... odd |
| 19:48.36 | ninnypants | utahcon: is the file corrupt? |
| 19:48.48 | utahcon | ninnypants: I sure hope not, the script just created it |
| 19:50.01 | ninnypants | utahcon: I mean is the file that was "put" corrupt from a transfer not finishing? that could be why it returned false |
| 19:50.16 | utahcon | ninnypants: IDK :( |
| 19:50.24 | utahcon | the server I upload to moves it immediately too :( |
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| 21:17.49 | TuxToaster | lol |
| 21:18.05 | TuxToaster | I need to watch that preview. |
| 21:18.10 | TuxToaster | my kid will love it |
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| 21:29.45 | beandog | anyone know a good calendar class |
| 21:36.27 | TuxToaster | gah, I'm pretty sure my history with Lasso has tainted my ability to code in PHP. |
| 21:36.35 | TuxToaster | just spent five minutes trying to figure out why |
| 21:36.48 | TuxToaster | 'sometext' . $var; wasn't printing anything |
| 21:37.03 | TuxToaster | (Lasso doesn't need a print command, it just prints any literal out) |
| 21:37.12 | TuxToaster | beandog: I wrote my own. lol. |
| 21:37.26 | beandog | yah I think I might, I just realized I only need like 3 functions. |
| 21:38.08 | TuxToaster | yeah the one I did wasn't super complex, just wanted to print out a calendar and do some different formatting for a dashboard, so I made up a class for it |
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| 23:21.15 | cedwards | beandog: ping re: gentoo use flags |
| 23:21.25 | beandog | cedwards, ey |
| 23:22.21 | cedwards | beandog: i'm playing with gentoo and use flags. i thought i might get more familiar with what i want, and the flags i want, by kind of pre-compiling a list of packages and their flags. |
| 23:22.38 | beandog | cedwards, whats the purpose of the setup gonna be |
| 23:22.41 | beandog | desktop? server? |
| 23:23.04 | mindjuju | flags like semaphore? |
| 23:23.13 | cedwards | beandog: is emerge -pv $package the best way to see the list (I'm redirecting to a file to edit, learn, etc) and make my edits? |
| 23:23.14 | mindjuju | like signals between ships? |
| 23:23.23 | cedwards | beandog: laptop. |
| 23:24.10 | cedwards | beandog: what I thought I'd try is to treat this machine like a lab for a little while, building and trying things out. |
| 23:24.30 | cedwards | beandog: eventually i'd like to have a pre-defined list for package.use that I can just slug in and build what i've learned. |
| 23:24.45 | beandog | cedwards, well, generally speaking, the more new users mess with default ues flags, the worse off they're gonna find themselves. The defaults are a great start, since they are all set either by the profile or the package. So if you're gonna change anything, I'd recommend adding, but only where you're absolutely sure. It's far easier to go back and change things after you have a working desktop w/defaults rather than try and create the perfect |
| 23:24.46 | beandog | setup from scratch. |
| 23:24.58 | beandog | cedwards, here's my advice though: switch to the desktop profile |
| 23:25.05 | beandog | # eselect profile list |
| 23:25.12 | beandog | # eselect profile set <# of desktop one> |
| 23:25.36 | beandog | That'll pull in KDE and GNOME desktops and all its necessary deps, and generally give you a well-rounded start. |
| 23:26.14 | cedwards | interesting. didn't know about that tool. |
| 23:26.45 | cedwards | when you say that'll pull in KDE and GNOME do you mean it'll build both? that's some serious compile time. |
| 23:26.50 | beandog | cedwards, yah |
| 23:27.05 | beandog | If you don't want one of them, j ust set -kde or -gnome in USE in make.conf |
| 23:27.32 | beandog | Other than that, I strongly recommend the default use flags. They're well selected. |
| 23:27.56 | cedwards | hmm |
| 23:28.12 | beandog | Oh, and to answer your earlier question, no, t hat's not the easiest way |
| 23:28.13 | beandog | sec |
| 23:28.26 | cedwards | so, if I wanted a standard kde desktop I might eselect profile set 2 and add -gnome to USE and be done with it? |
| 23:28.59 | beandog | yah |
| 23:29.24 | beandog | I was trying to find a funky way to display use flags per package using eix, but that's too mind bending about right now |
| 23:29.35 | cedwards | am i still able to select kdebase-meta vs kdemeta, or does the profile just slug in the default. |
| 23:30.16 | cedwards | and I assume I still want to define INPUT_DEVICES, VIDEO_CARDS, etc before I build |
| 23:30.21 | beandog | cedwards, actually you want kde-meta |
| 23:30.31 | beandog | if you want *all* of KDE |
| 23:30.43 | beandog | cedwards, default INPUT_DEVICES should be fine (mouse, keyboard) |
| 23:30.51 | beandog | but yah, set VIDEO_CARDS |
| 23:31.08 | cedwards | beandog: i've been using (evdev synaptics) |
| 23:31.21 | beandog | Here's a few *base* packages I install on every box .. some of them I'd recommend more than others, b ut still, it might give you a jumping off point: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/193999/ |
| 23:31.27 | beandog | cedwards, oh yah, thats good |
| 23:31.59 | cedwards | X via hal is so much simpler than the old xorg.conf nonsense, assuming your hardware is supported well. |
| 23:32.56 | beandog | cedwards, the biggest one I'd recommend is installing eix (# emerge eix; # eix-update; $ eix -S description) to search for packages client side |
| 23:33.21 | beandog | cedwards, or use a packages site to find stuff: http://znurt.org/ That'll display use flags as well. |
| 23:33.39 | cedwards | a co-worker suggested autounmask and gentoolkit |
| 23:33.48 | beandog | those are good. |
| 23:33.52 | beandog | flagedit is extremely helpful too. |
| 23:36.08 | cedwards | well my plans for this machine is likely a kde desktop + a dev environment of lighttpd, php and mysql. |
| 23:36.33 | cedwards | so you think selecting the profile, USE="-gnome" and the defaults for the dev stack should be fine? |
| 23:37.01 | beandog | dev stack? |
| 23:37.08 | cedwards | lighttpd, php and mysql i mean |
| 23:37.33 | beandog | Oh okay |
| 23:37.34 | beandog | yah |
| 23:38.04 | beandog | And I wouldn't play with autounmask just yet |
| 23:38.07 | beandog | Go with stable to start with. |
| 23:38.25 | beandog | The quickest way to frustration is to screw around with things before you're all setup. |
| 23:38.30 | cedwards | i needed it to get chromium |
| 23:38.37 | beandog | Ah, okay |
| 23:38.44 | beandog | Thats not so dangerous. |
| 23:39.09 | cedwards | that's all i used it for. unmask chromium and depends. |
| 23:44.06 | beandog | ok |
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| 23:51.43 | cedwards | beandog: so I guess i'm wondering now about the benefits of USE flags if its best to not touch them. |
| 23:53.02 | beandog | cedwards, well you'll need to touch them for PHP |
| 23:53.22 | beandog | and I'd only say its best to not touch them if you're new to Gentoo. |
| 23:53.56 | beandog | A lot of noobs *assume* flipping stuff on/off is the way to get things "to really work" and that's generally not the case. |
| 23:54.25 | beandog | default use flags are in, most cases, generally sane and reasonable. |
| 23:54.36 | beandog | but the whole reason of having them is flexibility |
| 23:54.45 | beandog | use flags just represent what the package supports. |