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| 15:16.19 | landley | dalias: the new uCLibc release doesn't build on mips with current kernels. |
| 15:16.21 | landley | Wheee. |
| 15:16.36 | landley | There's a commit in the tree for it already, but apparently nobody noticed. |
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| 15:18.21 | landley | Also, the version name is "0.9.33.2-git". In the 0.9.33.1 release tarball. |
| 15:18.40 | landley | At least that's what the shared libraries it built all say... |
| 15:19.38 | landley | Another fun one is where it copies stuff by piping tar into tar, and does so with "-f -" on the receiving end. |
| 15:19.44 | landley | Isn't that the default behavior of tar? |
| 15:20.37 | dalias | not for traditional tar |
| 15:20.51 | dalias | traditional tar's default behavior is to read or write the tape device :) |
| 15:21.11 | dalias | back when i used slackware that actually was the behavior... |
| 15:21.25 | dalias | if i forgot -f -, it would give errors about being unable to open /dev/whatever |
| 15:21.41 | dalias | this was like slack 2.0 or 3.0 or something :) |
| 15:27.33 | landley | dalias: behavior that predates linux 0.0.1 isn't interesting. |
| 15:28.23 | landley | It's sad that susv4 decided that "pax" was a command to standardize, but "tar" wasn't. |
| 15:28.46 | landley | Just checked: none of my systems actually have pax installed. It's not in the default set anywhere. |
| 15:28.54 | dalias | i think the issue is that tar varies too much between systems |
| 15:29.00 | landley | dalias: that version of slackware was broken. |
| 15:29.11 | landley | dalias: then why did they choose to use it to copy files? |
| 15:29.13 | dalias | and you'd have the committee stuck in bikeshed arguments for years if you tried to standardize it... |
| 15:29.18 | landley | It hasn't even got -p specified... |
| 15:29.26 | dalias | no, i mean for posix |
| 15:29.52 | landley | dalias: there are times when a single leader authorized to kneecap people with a sledgehammer really speeds up committee meetings. |
| 15:30.12 | dalias | yes and it works well until that leader ends up being somebody like ulrich drepper... |
| 15:30.19 | landley | To be honest, I'm perfectly happy with standards like michael kerrisk's man pages. |
| 15:30.25 | landley | Just document what _is_. |
| 15:30.36 | landley | dalias: then everybody abandons that committee and moves on to another one. |
| 15:30.50 | dalias | specification by man pages does not work well... |
| 15:31.04 | landley | Ulrich was from cygnus, which REd Hat bought, and while Red Hat had >50% desktop market share his word was law. |
| 15:31.15 | landley | He never quite recovered from the loss of market dominance. |
| 15:31.42 | landley | dalias: I'm pretty happy with it. I just want to know what the supposedly correct behavior _is_. |
| 15:31.49 | dalias | from experience implementing, i can say it's much easier implementing stuff specified clearly by ISO C (the best) or POSIX (mostly good) than nonstandard stuff specified by man page |
| 15:32.06 | dalias | for example glibc has a nonstandard exp10() function i want to implement |
| 15:32.07 | landley | shrugs. |
| 15:32.15 | dalias | and there's NO DOCUMENTATION of how it needs to behave |
| 15:32.29 | dalias | it just says it returns the value of 10 raised to the power of the argument |
| 15:32.57 | dalias | but does it need to be exact for integer arguments, when the exact value would fit in double? |
| 15:32.57 | landley | Apparently exp(3) and math_error(7) give the details. |
| 15:35.01 | dalias | perhaps i just need to go see if IEEE 754 specifies it |
| 15:35.29 | landley | Apparently the notes section of math_error(7) could be summarized "glibc and floating point do not combine well". |
| 15:36.20 | landley | "rather than deal with our error handling garbage, we advise you to check your arguments manually before calling any of our functions". |
| 15:36.31 | landley | (No really: they give an _example_.) |
| 15:36.44 | dalias | yes i saw |
| 15:37.05 | dalias | imo the correct approach is to always have math_errhandling be exception-only |
| 15:37.26 | dalias | using errno prohibits efficient implementations |
| 15:37.53 | dalias | even tho setting errno is relatively cheap, *checking* the exception flags and using them to set errno is moderately expensive |
| 15:38.21 | dalias | and in efficient math function implementations you won't be special-casing the cases that overflow, etc. unless you have to. you'll be letting the fpu handle the exception. |
| 15:38.57 | dalias | however i find it's usually useless to test the success/failure of individual math functions |
| 15:39.08 | dalias | usually, just checking for INF/NAN at the end of your whole calculation is sufficient |
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| 16:40.54 | khem | dalias: there has been some inclination towards "if input is not valid then its ok to segfault glibc" approach in past few years |
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| 16:42.30 | dalias | khem, that's unrelated to math |
| 16:42.43 | dalias | for math functions all inputs are valid and have well-defined output |
| 16:44.12 | khem | dalias: w.r.t there are discussions on it |
| 16:44.19 | khem | may be it will get reimplemented |
| 16:44.28 | khem | libm particulatly |
| 16:45.01 | dalias | libm is mostly correct because it's based on the same code all os's use -- in the C |
| 16:45.08 | dalias | the problem is glibc's abundance of broken math asm |
| 16:46.50 | khem | but you said problem in exp10() thats libm |
| 16:47.14 | dalias | ah |
| 16:47.21 | dalias | that's just a documentation problem |
| 16:47.39 | dalias | i need to know how exp10 is supposed to behave in more detail |
| 16:48.20 | khem | its a gnu extention so whatever is in man pages or more so implemented in glibc has the final say |
| 16:48.30 | dalias | for instance, if exp10(15) needs to take care to return an exact result |
| 16:49.07 | dalias | it would also be nice to know if, for small negative exponents, its supposed to be correctly rounded |
| 16:49.29 | dalias | i.e. should exp10(-2) give exactly the same thing as a literal 0.01 ? |
| 16:49.43 | dalias | or is it ok if there's a potential error up to 1ulp? |
| 16:50.25 | dalias | personally i think i'll just go with the more accurate version anyway for integers because it's damn fast |
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| 16:50.55 | dalias | make an array of 30 doubles 0.0001, 0.001, 0.011, 0.1, 1, 10, 100, 1000, ... |
| 16:51.05 | dalias | and for small integer exponents, return a value from the array |
| 16:51.16 | dalias | then you know it's exact and damn fast |
| 16:51.35 | dalias | and otherwise, return either pow(10,x) or exp2(log2_10*x) |
| 16:51.52 | dalias | just using pow() is probably safe anyway.. |
| 16:52.03 | dalias | but pow is the slowest, most bloated exponential function in the math lib |
| 16:52.11 | dalias | because it has so many requirements on its output |
| 16:52.32 | dalias | so it would be nice if we could get away without pulling in pow |
| 16:52.46 | dalias | especially since exp2 is just a few bytes of asm |
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| 17:53.36 | shevy | hey blindvt come to #emn ! |
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| 18:46.04 | nenolod | ...k |
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| 22:41.53 | cygnus | Hi. I'm attempting to build GCC for my target platform and it fails with 'libintl.h' not being found in the include path. Does this ring a bell for anyone? |
| 22:42.42 | cygnus | This is on GCC version 4.6.2, buildroot-2012.02, uClibc-0.9.33 |
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| 23:30.52 | cygnus | I have a potentially related question, which is: how hard should I try to get the UCLIBC_HAS_GETTEXT_AWARENESS config flag to work? With that enabled, I get lots of scary (and sometimes fatal) compilation warnings/errors, but I'm pretty sure I need libintl.h (which won't be installed without that feature enabled). |
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