| 00:04.27 | linuxjacques | yeah, happy birthday landley you youngster |
| 00:10.08 | landley | linuxjacques: thanks. |
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| 14:07.35 | sh4rm4 | the busybox Makefile uses the gcc "-r" switch for building some stuff... it seems undocumented, so what does that do ? |
| 14:12.06 | jow_laptop | its passed through to ld where it means "Generate relocatable output" |
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| 14:19.19 | sh4rm4 | jow_laptop, thanks... how does that work ? i get link errors on that specific object file, saying that _start is already defined in crt.o |
| 14:20.25 | sh4rm4 | usually relocatable is used in the meaning of -fPIC, i suppose |
| 14:20.59 | sh4rm4 | the ld manual is rather vague on this switch |
| 14:27.14 | jow_laptop | I don't know the details either, I just inspected my gcc spec file to see how -r is handled, there I've seen its only part of link_command |
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| 15:28.30 | sh4rm4 | hi landley |
| 15:28.44 | landley | sh4rm4: good morning. |
| 15:28.49 | landley | Or at least "morning". |
| 15:29.02 | landley | is not a morning person. |
| 15:29.17 | sh4rm4 | i've trouble building busybox... one file gets compiled using the -r switch |
| 15:29.33 | sh4rm4 | which apparently means -relocatable to the linker |
| 15:29.43 | sh4rm4 | applets/built-in.o: In function `_start': |
| 15:29.44 | sh4rm4 | (.text+0x0): multiple definition of `_start' |
| 15:29.59 | landley | Huh. |
| 15:30.02 | landley | Which version? |
| 15:30.12 | sh4rm4 | any idea what's the purpose of that -r flag ? the manual is quite vague on it |
| 15:30.13 | landley | And which architecture? |
| 15:30.30 | sh4rm4 | i386/bb 1.19.2 |
| 15:30.39 | landley | Well, in theory busybox grew a "build libbb as a shared library" functionality we discussed on the list way back when. |
| 15:30.45 | landley | And shared libraries have to be relocatable. |
| 15:30.52 | landley | There's also the PIC/PIE stuff in the .config. |
| 15:30.56 | landley | General options I think. |
| 15:30.58 | sh4rm4 | musl-gcc -nostdlib -r -o applets/built-in.o applets/applets.o |
| 15:32.07 | sh4rm4 | hmm usually one would use -fPIC instead of -r, no ? |
| 15:33.30 | sh4rm4 | note that musl-gcc is a wrapper which uses -nostdlib itself |
| 15:38.25 | landley | sh4rm4: I've built 1.19.2 for i486 and it worked fine. |
| 15:38.29 | landley | I even put binaries up, I think. |
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| 15:38.56 | landley | Eh last I bothered to post was 1.19.0 it seems: http://busybox.net/downloads/binaries/ |
| 15:39.24 | landley | but aboriginal linux was using 1.19.2 until a few days ago, now 1.19.3. And it has i486, i586, and i686 targets. |
| 15:39.40 | sh4rm4 | oh well, i'm trying to get it to compile as part of sabotage linux |
| 15:39.56 | landley | (I never bothered to do an actual i386 because nobody's made hardware that requires that for about 15 years.) |
| 15:40.19 | landley | Understood. Good luck with it. I'm just saying "it worked for me with uClibc and glibc". |
| 15:40.30 | landley | digs up build logs... |
| 15:40.44 | sh4rm4 | it used to work when i did a standard installation of gcc |
| 15:41.11 | sh4rm4 | now i tried building gcc/binutils/musl with -sysroot and put it in a different path, then symlinked everything into / |
| 15:41.17 | sh4rm4 | i.e all the files |
| 15:41.29 | landley | Alas, the logs were without V=1 so they just say "HOSTCC" and such. |
| 15:41.44 | sh4rm4 | so i must now use the musl-gcc wrapper to use /include and not /toolchain/include |
| 15:41.46 | landley | You changed your toolchain, busybox broke, so you're asking on the busybox list. Got it. |
| 15:42.08 | landley | -sysroot is creepy. |
| 15:42.08 | sh4rm4 | oh well, just trying to figure out stuff. |
| 15:42.21 | landley | Using a wrapper to make sysroot work sounds like par for the course to me, but other people have had better luck with it. |
| 15:42.28 | landley | Me, I use the wrapper and _not_ sysroot... |
| 15:42.47 | landley | The problem is you're not supposed to mix pic and non-pic code in the same binary. |
| 15:43.08 | landley | Is the -r there _before_ the wrapper runs, or after? |
| 15:43.18 | sh4rm4 | mhm, so i wonder why anybody would want to pass -r to that specific file |
| 15:43.22 | sh4rm4 | before |
| 15:44.49 | landley | Odd. |
| 15:45.37 | landley | I note that for i386 specifically busybox grew an insane arch/i386/Makefile that no other target has. |
| 15:45.39 | landley | I have no IDEA why. |
| 15:45.50 | landley | But I don't see a -r in there. |
| 15:46.08 | landley | Uh-huh. |
| 15:46.11 | landley | Top level Makefile: |
| 15:46.28 | landley | # For maximum performance (+ possibly random breakage, uncomment |
| 15:46.28 | landley | # the following) |
| 15:46.36 | landley | MAKEFLAGS += -rR |
| 15:46.46 | landley | And at least in my copy, it's not commented. |
| 15:46.52 | sh4rm4 | LDFLAGS_MODULE = -r |
| 15:46.53 | landley | Line 287. |
| 15:47.10 | landley | Busybox DOES NOT HAVE MODULES. |
| 15:47.20 | landley | Sigh. I have no idea why the katamari rolled up the kbuild infrastructure. |
| 15:47.22 | sh4rm4 | i'd guess MAKEFLAGS doesnt change gcc behaviour |
| 15:47.23 | landley | None at all. |
| 15:47.57 | mnemoc | unless MAKEFLAGS sets CFLAGS... |
| 15:47.59 | landley | Back in 1.2.2 this was one of the things I wanted to rip out, clean up, and simplify. |
| 15:48.02 | landley | Instead they made it bigger. |
| 15:48.04 | landley | Oh well. |
| 15:48.08 | landley | does toybox now... |
| 15:48.32 | landley | Working on getting a release out, but birthday social obligations have been interfering a bit. :) |
| 15:48.54 | sh4rm4 | toybox is not on par with busybox yet, isn't it ? |
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| 16:02.20 | landley | sh4rm4: not remotely. :) |
| 16:02.24 | landley | It's about 1/3 of the way, I'd guess. |
| 16:03.26 | sh4rm4 | hmm. i'd imagine fixing the broken parts of busybox would be a lighter task. |
| 16:03.47 | landley | Back in 2006-2008 I solved the interesting infrastructure problems, and then mothballed the project (except for the patch command) because I didn't think "technically better" was good enough to displace a project with a 10 year headstart. |
| 16:04.17 | landley | I only revived it in November. Added a dozen commands since then, but I need over 100 total. |
| 16:04.55 | landley | Everybody kept linking to Tim's "hey, do we wanna fund this" wiki page, but the _interesting_ one was this one: |
| 16:04.56 | landley | http://www.elinux.org/Busybox_replacement |
| 16:05.15 | landley | That's the one I filled out with the "what do we actually _need_" info, including sources and methodology. |
| 16:05.20 | landley | That's my toybox roadmap, more or less. |
| 16:06.44 | landley | I need to update that to include xargs, now that's in... |
| 16:09.19 | landley | sh4rm4: I tried fixing busybox. It's not easy: http://landley.net/notes-2011.html#08-06-2011 |
| 16:10.26 | landley | I tried pushing the toybox infrastructure upstream, and they just didn't get it: http://landley.net/notes-2010.html#11-03-2010 |
| 16:10.45 | landley | I explained it in person to Denys at CELF 2010, and he merged... about half of it. Badly from my point of view. |
| 16:12.17 | landley | I was still trying to push cleanups in all along: http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2010-April/072320.html |
| 16:12.27 | landley | I just... couldn't keep up with the rate at which busybox got ugly. |
| 16:16.02 | sh4rm4 | oh well. how about "stealing" the missing applets at least partially from busybox ? |
| 16:16.20 | sh4rm4 | i'd guess some of them are reasonably clean |
| 16:16.26 | landley | sh4rm4: well the commands I wrote and which are entirely my code I intend to repurpose. Already grapped sort, for example. |
| 16:16.54 | landley | (I have to triage them to find the last version in source control nobody else touched, but eh.) |
| 16:17.04 | sh4rm4 | heh |
| 16:17.04 | landley | But really, writing new ones isn't that hard. |
| 16:17.15 | landley | I rewrote mount three times before I was happy with it. |
| 16:17.19 | landley | (And then they broke it.) |
| 16:17.41 | landley | I'm a bit disappointed that even after I "left" I kept having to fix things in busybox at a design level, ala http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2008-October/067372.html |
| 16:18.38 | landley | I'd much rather put that work into toybox, it just seemed pointless for a while there until Tim pointed out Android as a target for it, and offered to help get it working there. |
| 16:19.14 | landley | (I still don't have a bionic build enviornment set up, and I just _know_ I'm going to have to write my own regex implementation on there. Last time I did that was under OS/2 in 1997. Hopefully it'll be easier this time. :) |
| 16:19.41 | landley | And I am glad my option parsing infrastructure doesn't use getopt() because I doubt bionic's is particularly feature-complete, assuming it even exists... |
| 16:19.51 | sh4rm4 | hmm i think musl is a viable alternative for bionic |
| 16:20.00 | landley | I thought that for a while too. |
| 16:21.02 | landley | sh4rm4: http://landley.net/notes-2012.html#18-01-2012 |
| 16:21.25 | landley | http://source.android.com/source/licenses.html |
| 16:21.42 | landley | Their "no GPL in userspace" specifically excludes LGPL too. |
| 16:22.24 | landley | So using musl on Android is about as viable as using uClibc or glibc: google's never shipping it, android vendors who follow Google's policies are never shipping it. |
| 16:22.32 | landley | And if there's one thing I learned working on OS/2: preinstalls matter. |
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| 17:16.16 | khem | landley: why dont you use git for your projects. Not that mercurial is bad |
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| 18:08.49 | bkuhn | Hey, does anyone know if Denys is regularly on IRC? |
| 18:08.56 | bkuhn | I've never seen him here, but maybe I just don't know his username? |
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| 18:35.32 | Jacmet | bkuhn: I don't think he uses irc |
| 18:45.12 | bkuhn | Jacmet: Yeah, I didn't think so; I've never seen him here. I think he tried to phone me -- I got a missed call from the Czech Republic (which doesn't happen often) and odds are it was him. I emailed him to let him know I'll call him back if it was him. I figured I'd try to see if he was maybe here. |
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| 19:05.03 | landley | bkuhn: I've never seen denys on irc either. |
| 19:05.14 | landley | khem: I've been meaning to set up a git mirror. |
| 19:05.35 | landley | I prefer mercurial because both git's user interface and internal implementation are a giant pile of unintelligible corner cases. |
| 19:06.50 | landley | Basically OLS 2006 I tracked down both matt mackall and junio hamano and asked them both about their respective thingies, and went with mercurial as the better tool for my purposes. |
| 19:10.10 | landley | khem: http://landley.net/notes-2006.html#23-07-2006 |
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| 22:56.16 | sh4rm4 | landley, i've got an android mobile in my hands recently and it had a page about software licenses... a big part of them were using GPL/LGPL |
| 22:56.31 | sh4rm4 | although no single GPL 3 sighted |
| 22:57.43 | landley | sh4rm4: you're not going to find any for-profit corporation using GPLv3 that I'm aware of. |
| 22:58.06 | landley | Your mobile vendor may have been ok adding GPL or LGPL code to their base system. The ones I've worked with aren't. |
| 22:58.19 | landley | Which page? |
| 22:58.22 | sh4rm4 | it was a samsung galaxy tablet |
| 22:58.37 | sh4rm4 | under settings, it has a page called "open source licenses" |
| 22:59.06 | sh4rm4 | basically just a huge page with concatenated text files |
| 23:00.00 | sh4rm4 | iirc it had about 2/3 apache and BSD licenses, and about one third GPL |
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