| 00:01.28 | mcgrof | solar: who's 'we' ? Is there something I can rely on? |
| 00:02.10 | mcgrof | Redhatter: yeah I hear you, however, I'm looking to use something like this for non-desktop environment |
| 00:02.13 | mcgrof | its a testbed |
| 00:11.27 | mcgrof | openwrt allows for this using uci |
| 00:11.35 | mcgrof | but wanted to see what was out there |
| 00:25.57 | Redhatter | solar, Yeah... there's the Lemote boxes, but uClibc's ld is broken when the kernel PAGE_SIZE is greater than 4KB. |
| 00:26.41 | Redhatter | It tries to call mmap with a 12KB offset IIRC.... the Lemote boxes need a page size of 16KB, thus mmap fails. |
| 00:27.48 | Redhatter | If you know how to fix it though... toss me your SSH key, you're welcome to have a try. |
| 00:46.26 | *** join/#uclibc wrobbie (n=rob@cm38.kappa85.maxonline.com.sg) |
| 01:14.17 | *** join/#uclibc mnemoc (n=amery@kilo105.server4you.de) |
| 01:14.27 | *** join/#uclibc hiyuh (n=hiyuh@ZQ177022.ppp.dion.ne.jp) |
| 01:27.23 | *** join/#uclibc landley (n=landley@adsl-76-197-33-46.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net) |
| 01:31.32 | *** join/#uclibc sstallion (n=sstallio@unaffiliated/icon) |
| 01:31.42 | sstallion | evening guys |
| 01:32.23 | sstallion | any buildroot warriors about? |
| 01:33.12 | sstallion | apologies, just read the /topic |
| 01:59.46 | *** join/#uclibc blindvt (n=bf@85-127-17-166.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:01.47 | *** join/#uclibc landley (n=landley@cpe-72-177-114-214.austin.res.rr.com) |
| 03:03.24 | *** join/#uclibc blindvt_ (n=bf@85-127-249-237.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at) |
| 05:56.31 | *** join/#uclibc ibot (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt) |
| 05:56.31 | *** topic/#uclibc is discussion of uClibc and Busybox | uClibc 0.9.29 released 6 May 2007 | busybox 1.8.2 released 23 Nov 2007 | for non uClibc/busybox such as buildroot and general setup issues try #elinux or #edev |
| 06:11.37 | landley | NPTL isn't in the daily snapshot. |
| 06:11.49 | landley | Integration of that is being done in a separate branch, for reasons I've never been clear on. |
| 06:12.03 | landley | I guess the main branch is a dead end right now? |
| 06:14.02 | Redhatter-DGO | uClibc is quite a forest lately. |
| 06:15.13 | Dr{Who} | hmm |
| 06:15.22 | Dr{Who} | ya dont see much activity |
| 06:15.31 | Dr{Who} | but the question is i guess what threading model to use? |
| 06:16.05 | Dr{Who} | my last build i have segfaults all over even during init sometimes |
| 06:16.17 | Dr{Who} | so im thinking a problem with pthreads.. |
| 06:16.26 | Dr{Who} | i had chosen old/stable pthreads |
| 06:16.44 | Dr{Who} | i also turned on thread debugging that was probably a bad idea and is why its unstable. |
| 06:17.00 | Dr{Who} | but i just wish i knew what is the "most" stable : c 0 |
| 06:17.25 | Dr{Who} | from reading it seems pthread and oldpthread are both a bit out of wack... |
| 06:17.42 | Dr{Who} | but i dont see any complaints on nptl |
| 06:20.49 | landley | Only the old threads currently work on all platforms. |
| 06:20.59 | landley | There's an arm nptl branch, and a mips one, and they don't really share code. |
| 06:24.03 | Dr{Who} | im i386 how is that for posix threads? |
| 06:28.12 | solar | fine |
| 06:31.14 | Dr{Who} | im going to build with it and see how motion runs under it |
| 06:31.41 | Dr{Who} | also the "make clean" seems to never work for me : ( any suggested ways to cleanup for a new build after changing the main config? |
| 06:32.02 | Dr{Who} | i get bs errors like dropbear.... uninstall ... blaa blaa missing etc |
| 06:32.19 | Dr{Who} | and if i just remove the build folders well then it wont remove anything |
| 06:33.02 | Dr{Who} | this was the same issue i had long ago with buildroot figured i was doign something wrong but best i can tell a make clean should do its job.... |
| 06:49.51 | solar | just testing motion that it builds under uClibc on i386.. Seems to be fine. |
| 06:50.34 | Dr{Who} | using what thread model? |
| 06:51.00 | Dr{Who} | it was an easy package to make.. so i think i have that part ok. |
| 06:51.17 | solar | In a pinch if you need it.. http://tinderbox.dev.gentoo.org/uclibc/i386/motion-3.2.9.tbz2 |
| 06:55.02 | *** join/#uclibc mathewss_ (n=mathewss@71-222-20-66.ptld.qwest.net) |
| 06:58.30 | mathewss_ | didnt see anything after my last type drwho is my ghost if you know a sysadmin kill it : c ) please |
| 06:59.45 | Redhatter-DGO | nickserv will happily kill ghosts |
| 07:00.53 | mathewss_ | ohh ok cool thnks |
| 07:02.19 | Dr{Who} | thanks again.. |
| 07:03.14 | Dr{Who} | that motion.tbz2 did not seem to be a buildroot package.. it didnt have a mk or anythig |
| 07:04.15 | solar | correct. it's a binary pkg thats built using a gentoo. |
| 07:05.09 | Dr{Who} | oh. |
| 07:05.10 | solar | buildroot is more of the intro to uclibc/busybox etc.. gentoo is the only mainstream distro I know of that supports it. |
| 07:05.39 | Dr{Who} | didnt know gentoo used buildroot to build its own packages... |
| 07:05.45 | Redhatter-DGO | it doesn't |
| 07:06.12 | solar | at one time there was an debian-apt repo for some uclibc stuff. But andersee no longer had time to maintain it so he started suggesting ppl swing over to gentoo who needed more than the buildroot basics |
| 07:06.22 | *** join/#uclibc cendres (n=ashes@2001:5c0:8fff:ffff:0:0:0:87) |
| 07:07.20 | Dr{Who} | ok so i was chasing unicorns.. looking for places to find more .mk packages |
| 07:08.00 | solar | what is your end goal? |
| 07:08.22 | solar | uclibc+busybox+motion ? |
| 07:09.25 | Dr{Who} | well i have maintained my own distro for 7 years now. i am now going to try and do all this with busybox/buildroot instead so my goals are to get a good solid build of my distro on 2.6.23 kernel and motion for my via epia boards |
| 07:09.25 | solar | motion on an i386 is probably not really going to cut it btw. that pkg is somewhat of a resource pig afaik. |
| 07:09.55 | Dr{Who} | wasnt too bad i had 3 cams running and the box was fine at 1mhz processor |
| 07:10.25 | solar | 1mhz ??? :) |
| 07:10.51 | Dr{Who} | sorry gig : c 0 |
| 07:11.23 | Dr{Who} | i have most of my stuff working on 500mhz cpu's on my own distro with 2.4.23 kernel |
| 07:11.31 | Redhatter-DGO | 0.001Hz is sooooo fast! :-P |
| 07:11.38 | solar | well good luck. |
| 07:11.40 | Dr{Who} | problem is only place to get good dev work for bt878 chip is 2.6 |
| 07:12.25 | Dr{Who} | besides its an appliance |
| 07:12.30 | Dr{Who} | it just does 1 thing |
| 07:13.42 | Dr{Who} | if necessary i can use mmx patched jpeg lib's |
| 07:14.19 | Dr{Who} | hmm build just died |
| 07:14.23 | Dr{Who} | in motion. |
| 07:14.38 | Dr{Who} | missing pthread_xxxx stuff looks like it may only support pthreads |
| 07:16.09 | Dr{Who} | ugg ya requires pthread support |
| 07:16.21 | Dr{Who} | grr |
| 07:16.26 | Dr{Who} | ok now to make clean again and try again |
| 07:16.36 | Dr{Who} | again if i make clean it will fail any suggestions ? |
| 07:17.12 | solar | yes. I'd say use the Gentoo.. But that does not fit with your goals directly. |
| 07:18.03 | landley | DrWho: I have my own build system for uClibc and BusyBox. http://landley.net/code/firmware |
| 07:18.14 | landley | And there are a few others out there. Some Debian based... |
| 07:18.18 | Dr{Who} | my current distro runs out of about 12megs on a cf disk.. and in 128megs ram so far with build root im about the same with a 2.6 kernel |
| 07:18.18 | solar | can you build motion? |
| 07:19.08 | landley | I believe the openmoko stuff is debian based uClibc, but haven't really tried it. |
| 07:21.06 | Dr{Who} | landly thanks ill wiki that one. looks good though i know the 2.6.21 tree had issues with bt878 video capture i think related to other kernel issues and pci buss / lowlevel crap |
| 07:22.03 | Dr{Who} | my current distro is based upon oxygen redone in a lot of ways but basicly still leaf compliant. |
| 07:23.05 | Dr{Who} | i build my new build process based upon Limey Linux it was a wrapper around buildroot for buiiding a syslinux single init image boot |
| 07:23.33 | Dr{Who} | although i had to strip it down and start over because i have my own leaf based boot process |
| 07:23.43 | Dr{Who} | using my own init script. |
| 07:26.24 | Dr{Who} | never fils |
| 07:26.35 | Dr{Who} | make[1]: *** No rule to make target `uninstall'. Stop. |
| 07:26.35 | Dr{Who} | make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/mathewss/UFO/ufolinux/buildroot/build_i586/dropbear-0.50' |
| 07:26.35 | Dr{Who} | make: *** [dropbear-clean] Error 2 |
| 07:26.51 | Dr{Who} | never fails i get this on every version of buildroot i have ever tried. |
| 07:34.14 | solar | I get the setup you are after in about 4.3 to 5.3M (uclibc busybox dropbear motion) |
| 07:35.22 | Dr{Who} | nice |
| 07:36.36 | Dr{Who} | ya thats about what i have my root img is 4.5meg |
| 07:36.37 | solar | jpeg mjpegtools and deps of motion. |
| 07:36.56 | Dr{Who} | yep. |
| 07:37.05 | Dr{Who} | did you use pthreads old? or new? |
| 07:37.21 | solar | here anyway. So they account for some of that space. Also zlib is pulled in. http://rafb.net/p/a9U7wX75.html |
| 07:37.24 | Dr{Who} | and agian any idea on how to get "make clean" to work better |
| 07:38.39 | Dr{Who} | i still have some swiss army knife stuff in my distro so it will grow. i like all the fun stuff like tcpdump and i have a compact perl build and more but for now on my first converstion to 2.6 i will keep it simple. |
| 07:39.22 | solar | exact config http://tinderbox.dev.gentoo.org/portage/uclibc.config |
| 07:40.45 | Dr{Who} | diffing..... |
| 07:43.01 | Dr{Who} | hmm diff version of buildroot for sure |
| 07:43.08 | Dr{Who} | the pthread options seem different |
| 07:44.48 | solar | uClibc-0.9.28.3 is what that is from. .29 is not really a good release to use. |
| 07:44.56 | Dr{Who} | ahh |
| 07:45.03 | solar | lots of stdio bugs in .29 |
| 07:45.04 | Dr{Who} | ya im on svn |
| 07:45.11 | Dr{Who} | reallly!! |
| 07:45.13 | solar | they still remain ;/ |
| 07:45.15 | Dr{Who} | crap |
| 07:45.27 | Dr{Who} | maybe thats my prob then |
| 07:45.36 | landley | solar: does anyone have a decent list of said stdio bugs and patches for them? |
| 07:45.40 | solar | infact. even uClibc-0.9.28.3 has some of the bugs. uClibc-0.9.28.1 iirc was the last good release |
| 07:45.48 | landley | I may collect patches and put out a #*%(&%# 0.9.29.1 release of vapier doesn't. |
| 07:45.58 | Dr{Who} | and why i get tuns of segfaults in userspace on various apps |
| 07:46.22 | solar | landley: just psm afaik but be careful.. as he has some self introduced bugs also. |
| 07:46.45 | landley | THe problem with psm's tree is he won't let me release it. |
| 07:46.59 | landley | He'd give me a copy, but said nobody except me could see it. |
| 07:47.02 | landley | This is open source? |
| 07:47.06 | landley | What's the _point_ of doing development like that? |
| 07:47.12 | solar | he is just hard headed sometimes |
| 07:47.15 | landley | He's been working on his own fork for 2-3 years now, and no release. |
| 07:47.33 | landley | Duke Nukem Forever may actually exist, it just doesn't _matter_. |
| 07:48.02 | solar | oh yeah.. I think he is probably butt hurt over the way he lost his access to the tre. |
| 07:48.03 | Dr{Who} | land your page shows you use 9.29 |
| 07:48.13 | Dr{Who} | so whats my best bet? |
| 07:48.13 | landley | DrWho: I do. |
| 07:48.20 | landley | And I've patched every bug I've personally hit in it so far. |
| 07:48.21 | solar | Dr{Who}: It still works pretty ok. |
| 07:48.37 | Dr{Who} | for stability? my old distro uses normal libc so this has been a bit painfulll to move to uclibc |
| 07:48.58 | landley | I'd be quite happy to use a public tree psm maintains. |
| 07:49.02 | solar | that happens when you are a distro maintainer |
| 07:49.09 | landley | The problem is, he doesn't maintain a public tree. |
| 07:49.35 | Dr{Who} | ok back to my make clean issue : c ) |
| 07:49.37 | landley | I respect his technical judgement. It's just the release management bits that are missing. |
| 07:49.38 | Dr{Who} | suggestions? |
| 07:49.45 | solar | he is probably one of the main reason we have it working so well on gentoo. |
| 07:49.45 | landley | Which make clean issue? |
| 07:49.54 | Dr{Who} | when i make clean it bails |
| 07:49.57 | landley | How do _you_ get a tree to use? |
| 07:50.02 | landley | When you make clean in uClibc? |
| 07:50.03 | landley | Which version? |
| 07:50.08 | solar | w/o his additions for -lm we would of still been in the stone ages supporting far fewer pkgs |
| 07:50.24 | landley | Cool. |
| 07:50.26 | Dr{Who} | usually on dropbare |
| 07:50.42 | landley | Doing make clean in uClibc gives you an error in dropbear...? |
| 07:50.43 | landley | Huh? |
| 07:50.44 | Dr{Who} | svn tree main branch |
| 07:51.01 | landley | I use the 0.9.29 release with a couple of patches. |
| 07:51.06 | landley | SVN is loopy last I checked. |
| 07:51.27 | landley | Besides, svn won't become 0.9.29. The NPTL branch will. |
| 07:51.29 | Dr{Who} | sorry was the latest snapshot |
| 07:51.32 | landley | Er, 0.9.30. |
| 07:51.37 | Dr{Who} | my bad.. |
| 07:51.42 | Dr{Who} | like 2 days ago |
| 07:51.43 | landley | How does doing "make clean" in the uClibc directory give you a dropbear error? |
| 07:51.57 | landley | Dropbear is not a part of uClibc. |
| 07:52.16 | solar | landley: uggh. You are saying we are going to dump trunk and hope sjhill's branch did not miss anything from trunk? |
| 07:52.19 | Dr{Who} | i get this |
| 07:52.24 | landley | solar: I'm not, no. |
| 07:52.29 | landley | But I think that's what vapier expects to happen. |
| 07:52.31 | Dr{Who} | after it fails to build completely because of some package error |
| 07:52.36 | Dr{Who} | i make clean and get the following |
| 07:52.39 | Dr{Who} | /ufolinux/buildroot/build_i586/dropbear-0.50 uninstall |
| 07:52.39 | Dr{Who} | make[1]: Entering directory `/home/mathewss/UFO/ufolinux/buildroot/build_i586/dropbear-0.50' |
| 07:52.39 | Dr{Who} | make[1]: *** No rule to make target `uninstall'. Stop. |
| 07:52.39 | Dr{Who} | make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/mathewss/UFO/ufolinux/buildroot/build_i586/dropbear-0.50' |
| 07:52.39 | Dr{Who} | make: *** [dropbear-clean] Error 2 |
| 07:52.39 | Dr{Who} | K1:/home/mathewss/UFO/ufolinux/buildroot # |
| 07:52.47 | landley | buildroot != uclibc |
| 07:52.51 | solar | I think we all expect the nptl stuff to be merged into trunk. |
| 07:53.02 | Dr{Who} | dho sorry u r right. |
| 07:53.04 | Dr{Who} | my bad. |
| 07:53.07 | landley | You said "uclibc". I'm happy to try to support that, but I dont' use buildroot. |
| 07:53.09 | landley | It never worked for me. |
| 07:53.18 | landley | solar does gentoo instead of buildroot, I do firmware linux instead of buildroot... |
| 07:53.24 | landley | OpenMoko does debian instead of buildroot... |
| 07:53.25 | Dr{Who} | ahhh |
| 07:53.27 | solar | then after that.. we do a crappy release on the masses. smooth it all out in .31 |
| 07:53.34 | Dr{Who} | hehe |
| 07:53.36 | Dr{Who} | fun |
| 07:53.50 | landley | solar: that's what I talked Erik into doing. |
| 07:54.01 | landley | But vapier never bought into that, and vapier's mostly been a MIA maintainer. |
| 07:54.25 | landley | I've pondered doing a 0.9.29.1 with bug fixes only, if I can get bug reports in need of fixing. |
| 07:54.27 | vapier | sjhill contacted me and said he was going to be working on getting nptl into trunk |
| 07:54.29 | landley | So far, it Works For Me (tm). |
| 07:54.56 | landley | cool. |
| 07:54.56 | landley | I saw his post to the list. |
| 07:54.56 | solar | ya he really is to busy these days and involved in quite a few foss projects to take lead on this one. |
| 07:54.56 | landley | My understanding is he's been working on this, on and off, for... 9 months now? |
| 07:55.06 | vapier | he had other issues to resolve |
| 07:55.10 | vapier | he'd rather not talk about it |
| 07:55.17 | vapier | pretend i didnt mention anything |
| 07:55.21 | landley | Well, I'm happy for any work he does do. |
| 07:55.23 | vapier | i'm thinking of automating the point releases |
| 07:55.27 | landley | Cool. |
| 07:55.33 | landley | I'd be happy to _have_ point releases. |
| 07:55.38 | landley | Right now I dunno the state of svn. |
| 07:55.50 | landley | It has some development in it that's irrelevant to a point release, but nothing to do with the NPTL branch either. |
| 07:56.01 | landley | There's more than one point to the wedge. |
| 07:56.24 | landley | I dunno what to test. |
| 07:56.32 | Dr{Who} | seemed like buildroot has promis in that it allows for custome package's etc but i see little movement on the project |
| 07:56.52 | solar | Dr{Who}: It's not really a moving project. |
| 07:56.59 | Dr{Who} | ya. |
| 07:57.01 | landley | I catalyzed the creation of the buildroot mailing list to get discussion of that _off_ of the uClibc mailing list. |
| 07:57.09 | landley | Because I follow uClibc but not buildroot. |
| 07:57.18 | solar | it mainly gets updated by guys like you whjo are using it.. Then they need newer versions. |
| 07:57.21 | vapier | i'll prob review trunk and cut out bugfixes for the branch this friday |
| 07:57.26 | landley | Cool. |
| 07:57.35 | landley | I'm happy to test any -rc you care to throw at me... |
| 07:57.47 | vapier | oh that was the other thing |
| 07:57.51 | solar | landley: are all the patches you are using in trunk? |
| 07:58.01 | vapier | auto-making weekly snaps and labeling rc |
| 07:58.03 | vapier | useful ? |
| 07:58.31 | solar | eekkk.. I'm afaid of all the bugs.g.o for new release of uclibc.. |
| 07:58.46 | landley | The auto-snaps aren't an improvement over the nightly snapshots if the tree contains non-bugfixes that won't go in .1. |
| 07:59.18 | solar | auto-snaps when it passes all arch tests would be ideal |
| 07:59.21 | landley | To be useful to me, I'd need a .1 release line containing just cherry picked bugfix-only stuff. |
| 07:59.50 | solar | wheres that page of vapier's that does the auto testing |
| 07:59.57 | landley | svn, I mean. |
| 08:00.04 | *** join/#uclibc tiny (n=tiny@unaffiliated/tiny) |
| 08:00.14 | landley | Updating my toolchain wrapper is on the todo list... |
| 08:00.15 | solar | oh heh. http://uclibc.org/~vapier/ |
| 08:00.32 | vapier | that's the old stuff |
| 08:00.42 | vapier | http://uclibc.org:8010/ |
| 08:01.04 | landley | Let's see, I've got a patch to 0.9.29 so softarm works. |
| 08:01.16 | landley | A patch so "make allnoconfig" doesn't require curses. |
| 08:01.51 | landley | And a patch so the uClibc.so wrapper script doesn't have gratuitous absolute paths in it. |
| 08:01.58 | Dr{Who} | the patches you say you used on 9.29 anything critical? |
| 08:02.09 | landley | Those are the three. |
| 08:02.39 | landley | One of them's far bigger than it needs to be (swapping out the old kconfig entirely with an upgraded one from linux-kernel, in a different directory). |
| 08:02.46 | landley | I'd have to check cvs to see what it's got. |
| 08:02.58 | landley | I grumbled at the time about the makefile change that made it stop compiling with my toolchain. |
| 08:03.18 | landley | I've only checked in about once every two weeks since then, and could easily have missed stuff... |
| 08:03.24 | Dr{Who} | im just not wanting any mejor libc issues as long as thats mostly working i am cool with keeping on 29 |
| 08:03.42 | landley | It works for me, but I haven't tried everything. :) |
| 08:03.52 | landley | Still, fixing 0.9.29 strikes me as more interesting than fixing 0.9.28. |
| 08:03.57 | Dr{Who} | ya |
| 08:04.14 | Dr{Who} | ok ill keep on that track and give feedback on bugs i find |
| 08:04.15 | landley | Oh, and it's broken on sparc. |
| 08:04.29 | landley | 0.9.29 won't bring up "init" on sparc, still not sure why. |
| 08:04.33 | Dr{Who} | im i386 so shrug |
| 08:04.35 | landley | Some stdio thing, never did track it down. |
| 08:04.43 | landley | (It's sparc. Caring about it is on my todo list.) |
| 08:04.48 | solar | gcc-4? |
| 08:04.56 | landley | I got it working on mips, arm, powerpc, x86, and x86-64. |
| 08:05.02 | Dr{Who} | man i wonder if i still have an old sparcstation i can dig out of my storage.... |
| 08:05.03 | landley | 4.1 |
| 08:05.11 | landley | 4.1.2 I think... |
| 08:05.16 | Dr{Who} | i got linux on it at one point but that was like 8 years ago |
| 08:05.29 | landley | I'm using qemu for all the targets except arm. |
| 08:05.36 | landley | It is a nice hammer board. |
| 08:05.46 | landley | It has blinky lights. |
| 08:05.59 | landley | They are red. |
| 08:06.31 | solar | Error Lights! |
| 08:07.15 | landley | Fly in Erik Andersen, Denis Vlasenko, Vapier if he's interested... |
| 08:07.29 | Dr{Who} | i have some atmega128 work i have for my home automation project but it wont run linux too small.. only runs NutOS |
| 08:07.56 | Dr{Who} | i want to get some good arm board like that to play with |
| 08:07.58 | landley | "Sponsored by Monsoon and co." |
| 08:08.02 | Dr{Who} | in my spare time : / |
| 08:08.23 | solar | you should focus on the project at hand drwho |
| 08:08.45 | Dr{Who} | ya its a work project the atmel stuff and smaller boards is hobby fun stuff |
| 08:09.40 | landley | vapier: please keep me posted about moves towards 0.9.29.1. |
| 08:09.44 | landley | I'm interested. |
| 08:10.04 | landley | I can send cake. |
| 08:10.10 | landley | (Non-lie cake, even.) |
| 08:11.46 | Dr{Who} | http://www.soc-machines.com/ amber web server is neet stuff built a few things with this. how much does that hammer cost? |
| 08:13.03 | Dr{Who} | and can it be sourced easy.. i have tried to find good embeded boards for work projects but most of the time getting them reliably and consistently is a problem. |
| 08:13.41 | Dr{Who} | this guy at soc machines.. well he is a freek. takes him weeks to ship out a board. |
| 08:15.58 | landley | drwho: dunno, I got mine sent to me free. :) |
| 08:16.04 | Dr{Who} | dho : ) |
| 08:16.46 | landley | The hammer board is basically a tiny little simm board with an arm processor and memory and flash and other stuff on it. |
| 08:16.48 | Dr{Who} | i have been using via boards and labjacks for io works but its not very compact.. |
| 08:17.01 | Dr{Who} | ya i saw looks nice. |
| 08:17.16 | landley | http://www.elinux.org/Hammer_Board |
| 08:17.58 | landley | They're currently working on a "nail" which is basically the above board glued to another board of equal size that's got a USB slave, usb/serial converter chip, jtag control thingy, and maybe some other stuff on it (10baseT ethernet?) |
| 08:18.23 | landley | All in a case, so you plug it into USB and viola: portable arm development system you can take with you and power from your laptop. |
| 08:18.40 | landley | Somewhere between "large thumb drive" and "one of those dongles on a cord" size. |
| 08:18.40 | Redhatter-DGO | Damn that's tiny. |
| 08:18.43 | landley | They're still working out the details. |
| 08:18.51 | Dr{Who} | that would be perfect.. i see this one has the jtag pin header and sais it has 32 bits of gpio / usb irda etc |
| 08:18.53 | landley | First prototype was today. |
| 08:19.05 | landley | Ask prpplague on #edev. |
| 08:19.12 | landley | During the day when he's on, anyway. |
| 08:19.47 | landley | The hard part seems to be that the whole thing would draw more than the 100mA that a laptop on battery can trim USB power down to. |
| 08:20.11 | landley | Probably more in the 200-250mA range with ethernet going. |
| 08:20.32 | landley | Well within the 500mA that USB can do, of course, but still... getting it to run happily when the laptop's on _battery_ takes some study. |
| 08:21.25 | landley | Today's prototype: http://www.elinux.org/Nail_Board |
| 08:21.37 | landley | It's long because the components aren't stacked vertically yet. |
| 08:21.46 | tiny | http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8386088053.html <-- that's tiny :) |
| 08:21.48 | landley | They want to add blinkable LEDs and such, too... |
| 08:22.44 | landley | That is indeed tiny. |
| 08:22.53 | landley | It also appears to be nommu, which is a bit of a pain. |
| 08:22.57 | Dr{Who} | ya seen and considered these a few varients of them exist |
| 08:23.04 | Dr{Who} | but the cost is too high... |
| 08:23.18 | landley | Beyond a certain point you do pay for miniaturization. |
| 08:23.33 | Dr{Who} | ya |
| 08:23.41 | landley | Cheapest embedded system right now is probably still a used linksys. :) |
| 08:23.51 | Dr{Who} | ya that works : c 0 |
| 08:23.52 | landley | You can get those for $35-50. |
| 08:24.31 | Dr{Who} | if you can find the right revision's etc i managed to get a few to keep around but the new linux supported ones from linksys are ok priced too at like 130? |
| 08:24.32 | Dr{Who} | or so. |
| 08:24.50 | landley | Sure, I was just talking "cheapest". :) |
| 08:25.02 | Dr{Who} | ya so you can still find them? |
| 08:25.09 | Dr{Who} | i had bad luck my last try |
| 08:25.21 | landley | You can get Linux on the 2 meg ones if you're willing/able to use a jtag. |
| 08:25.29 | Redhatter-DGO | How much does one of those "hammer" boards cost typically? |
| 08:25.30 | Dr{Who} | ended up getting ripped on the wrong rev a new revision so not going to run linux. |
| 08:25.34 | landley | (One of the things I'm looking forward to in the nail board is the built-in jtag.) |
| 08:25.40 | landley | Usable through the USB connection. |
| 08:25.52 | Mirell | Hmm. |
| 08:25.53 | landley | Plug it in, it presents as 2 serial devices: one's the console, one's the jtag access thingy. |
| 08:25.54 | Redhatter-DGO | Hrmm, answered my own question |
| 08:25.59 | Dr{Who} | neet. |
| 08:26.06 | Dr{Who} | i like that. |
| 08:26.16 | landley | So you can't brick the darn thing. I LIKE that part. |
| 08:26.22 | Dr{Who} | hehe ya |
| 08:26.50 | landley | It's designed to fit on a coat pocket or something, so I'll probably put it through the wash. |
| 08:26.58 | landley | But that's not their fault. |
| 08:26.59 | Dr{Who} | heh ya throw the wrong flag and it wont want to load anymore : c 0 |
| 08:27.20 | landley | hence the built-in jtag. |
| 08:27.51 | Dr{Who} | ill keep my eye on this it seems like this may take a while though |
| 08:28.08 | landley | The hammer board is a sort of generic chip, the nail thingy is just an enclosure for it to make development easy. |
| 08:28.21 | landley | I dunno, they've been moving really fast. |
| 08:29.35 | landley | The other thing they have is a "hammer carrier" board, and something called a "flyswatter" (which is a combination USB/serial converter and USB/jtag converter). |
| 08:29.47 | landley | So they've already worked out all the circuitry for this on previous boards. |
| 08:29.56 | landley | This is pretty much just repackaging. |
| 08:30.09 | landley | I think. |
| 08:30.41 | landley | If the hardware's nice, anyway. |
| 08:31.00 | Dr{Who} | hehe |
| 08:31.21 | landley | (I have a coldfire board and a blackfin board I feel guilt about because I never use either.) |
| 08:31.32 | landley | Getting toolchains and kernels to target them is a huge pain. |
| 08:31.37 | Dr{Who} | still wish i had an idea on final pricing... |
| 08:31.43 | landley | But I've already gotten a toolchain to target armv5, which this is... |
| 08:31.47 | landley | drwho: depends on unit volume. |
| 08:31.53 | landley | Ask prpplague. |
| 08:32.03 | landley | For just a hammer board, or for the USB enclosure thingy? |
| 08:32.47 | Dr{Who} | ya i would be doing sub 10 per order likely.. we dont do high runs of systems they are custom and specialized. not like im building an mp3 player for the masses : c 0 |
| 08:33.26 | landley | http://www.tincantools.com/product.php?productid=16133 |
| 08:33.28 | landley | Price info. |
| 08:33.34 | Mirell | I still need to do an MP3 player, portable thingie, that can just accept a USB HD/Penstick and play MP3s off it. |
| 08:33.35 | Dr{Who} | i sware i love this kb cus its blue led backlight but dam its sticky.. |
| 08:33.43 | landley | $159 individually, $153 10-99, $127 at 100, and dunno from there. |
| 08:33.51 | landley | Excuse, $143 10-99. |
| 08:33.55 | Dr{Who} | so thats not too bad |
| 08:34.09 | Dr{Who} | will go down as they get them moving i am sure |
| 08:34.10 | landley | The price will probably come down after it's been selling for a while, too. |
| 08:34.15 | landley | They're still amortizing the development costs... |
| 08:34.17 | Dr{Who} | ya |
| 08:35.11 | landley | There's still a chance the "nail" thing will wind up with a USB port at the downstream end instead of 10baseT. |
| 08:35.13 | Mirell | Man, my cats are lazy. |
| 08:35.15 | landley | (Or offer it as an option.) |
| 08:35.48 | landley | Mirell: if so you could use a usb thumb drive thingy in that, and have hammer play mp3s off of it. |
| 08:35.53 | landley | Except for lack of audio out. |
| 08:36.02 | Mirell | landley: Heh, exactly. |
| 08:36.05 | landley | (Hmmm, they're still taking hardware suggestions for the second prototype...) |
| 08:36.10 | landley | "Audio out" might interest 'em... |
| 08:36.12 | Mirell | My dad wants that particular feature. |
| 08:36.31 | Mirell | Because he goes to kickball, and has a hard drive enclosure with a bajilion MP3s, |
| 08:36.39 | landley | The hammer has 16 megs built in flash, of which the OS needs maybe 2. |
| 08:36.45 | landley | You could do a _little_ built-in. Not much, though. |
| 08:36.52 | Mirell | And wants something cheaper/safe/more portable than his laptop |
| 08:37.26 | landley | There are enclosures that take four AA batteries, but that would be the next enclosure after the "nail" thing. |
| 08:37.47 | Mirell | landley: It's not the HD enclosure issue, it's the processing MP3s from USB to line out. |
| 08:38.05 | Mirell | There doesn't seem to be a device to do that as such. |
| 08:38.06 | landley | A 200 mhz arm should have plenty of power for that. |
| 08:38.10 | Mirell | Exactly. |
| 08:38.31 | landley | The hammer chip thingy is already good for that, it just needs the right other bits wired up to it in a decent enclosure. |
| 08:38.37 | landley | Which is _so_ not my area. :) |
| 08:38.49 | Dr{Who} | speaking of arm... any word on a port of java to arm? i hear that sun released its build environment but no word on porting to arm yet by anyone. |
| 08:38.50 | Mirell | If it can take CompactFlash, that's still really good. |
| 08:39.05 | Mirell | landley: CompactFlash is awesome, because it's the same pinout as IDE. |
| 08:39.07 | landley | drwho: Android? |
| 08:39.14 | landley | Cool. |
| 08:39.31 | landley | Somebody on #edev already programmed the gpio pins on hammer to act as a cheap plastic PIO ide controller. |
| 08:39.31 | Mirell | Dr{Who}: Yah, Android. |
| 08:39.37 | Dr{Who} | if they add minipci bus it would be a kick ass wireless toy. |
| 08:39.46 | Dr{Who} | hmm ok so is that new? ill go google. |
| 08:39.51 | landley | drwho: suggest it to prpplague tomorrow. |
| 08:39.56 | landley | It's google's new cell phone thing. |
| 08:39.59 | Mirell | Dr{Who}: Heh, it's a Google product. |
| 08:40.00 | Mirell | Yah. |
| 08:40.07 | landley | It's basically a java environment on arm Linux. |
| 08:40.20 | Mirell | They're even using qemu for their development emulator. |
| 08:40.41 | landley | It's... 3 weeks old? |
| 08:40.47 | Mirell | A few months. |
| 08:40.58 | landley | Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like an apple. |
| 08:41.16 | Mirell | Thank you, linguistics 101 joke. |
| 08:41.33 | landley | Nancy lebowitz button catalogue, circa 1985. |
| 08:41.52 | Mirell | Linguistics joke, circa late 1950s, Chomsky. |
| 08:42.53 | Dr{Who} | pepperpads the older style have arm processors and are a good price but lack newer java so have limited use in home automation |
| 08:43.09 | Dr{Who} | if i could get updated jvm's it would be very cool. |
| 08:43.47 | landley | Java is just software. |
| 08:44.06 | landley | A cheap plastic no-JIT java interpeter can't be more than a few thousand lines of code. |
| 08:44.18 | landley | It implements an 8-bit stack based instruction set. |
| 08:44.58 | Dr{Who} | thats why i wonder why no newer jvm for linux/arm exists.... |
| 08:47.51 | Dr{Who} | http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT7558010259.html |
| 08:48.18 | Dr{Who} | neet stuff for home automation. good price on ebay plays audio '''ok''' |
| 08:49.03 | Dr{Who} | only 11b so videa is not very good over the air.. not sure but i presume it uses uclibc |
| 09:08.10 | *** join/#uclibc Khem (n=Khem@63.81.120.158) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:08.10 | *** join/#uclibc bernard__ (n=bernard@mersenne.largestprime.net) |
| 09:25.41 | *** join/#uclibc Khem (n=Khem@63.81.120.158) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 09:25.41 | *** join/#uclibc bernard__ (n=bernard@mersenne.largestprime.net) |
| 09:38.45 | *** join/#uclibc hw (n=hw@p578b3905.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 10:27.24 | *** join/#uclibc wrobbie (n=rob@cm38.kappa85.maxonline.com.sg) |
| 10:46.38 | *** join/#uclibc CIA-4 (n=CIA@208.69.182.149) |
| 10:58.59 | *** join/#uclibc whirm (n=whirm@163.Red-83-58-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) |
| 13:11.12 | *** join/#uclibc sjhill (n=sjhill@real.realitydiluted.com) |
| 13:59.41 | *** join/#uclibc wrobbie (n=rob@cm38.kappa85.maxonline.com.sg) |
| 14:44.33 | *** join/#uclibc Toastie (n=future@213.8.185.214) |
| 14:44.37 | *** part/#uclibc Toastie (n=future@213.8.185.214) |
| 15:38.53 | *** join/#uclibc hiyuh (n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp) |
| 16:31.23 | *** join/#uclibc antab (n=antab@buttbuddies.cannabis.is) |
| 16:44.02 | *** join/#uclibc antab (n=antab@buttbuddies.cannabis.is) |
| 16:55.17 | *** join/#uclibc WildPikachu (n=WildPika@about/linux/staff/wildpikachu) |
| 16:57.28 | *** join/#uclibc antab (n=antab@buttbuddies.cannabis.is) |
| 17:09.56 | *** join/#uclibc Gerrath (n=Gerrath_@unaffiliated/gerrath) |
| 17:11.06 | *** join/#uclibc antab (n=antab@buttbuddies.cannabis.is) |
| 17:25.10 | *** join/#uclibc CIA-4 (n=CIA@208.69.182.149) |
| 18:28.53 | Dr{Who} | if any buildroot dev people are in the house feel free to stand up .. would like to discuss some issues with make clean and other build problems. |
| 20:08.40 | mnemoc | Dr{Who}: read the topic ,-) |
| 21:26.43 | *** join/#uclibc Gerrath (n=Gerrath_@unaffiliated/gerrath) |