| 00:18.31 | *** join/#ubuntu-utah Zelut (n=christer@ubuntu/member/zelut) |
| 01:13.22 | *** join/#ubuntu-utah linuxalien (i=UNKNOWN@sp1.cotse.net) |
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| 05:25.05 | tristanbob_ | I GOT IN!!! (ubuntu membership has been approved) |
| 05:25.08 | tristanbob_ | ping atoponce |
| 05:37.20 | Zelut | trcongrats. |
| 05:41.21 | Zelut | tristanbob_: I've got atoponce sitting next to me. I let him know |
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| 06:42.53 | maquis | tristanbob_: congrats |
| 07:20.07 | sontek | tristanbob_: gratz |
| 12:38.08 | tristanbob_ | maquis: can open source help fix your back? |
| 14:17.09 | *** join/#ubuntu-utah bvm (n=bvm@c-67-180-84-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 14:17.22 | bvm | anybody awake? |
| 14:44.03 | *** join/#ubuntu-utah bvm (n=bvm@c-67-180-84-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 15:02.28 | bvm | Is Zelut a homonym for Zealot? |
| 15:03.42 | bvm | If you're Christer Edwards of the Ubuntu blog I wanted to run an idea past you |
| 15:40.52 | maquis | bvm: hi |
| 15:43.46 | bvm | hi |
| 15:43.59 | bvm | are you in contact with CE |
| 15:44.26 | maquis | not atm, but usually, yeah |
| 15:44.34 | maquis | (assuming CE == Christer Edwards) |
| 15:44.52 | bvm | Right, I just had a reaction to his post on the Linspire CNR issue, |
| 15:45.04 | maquis | did you add a comment to his blog? |
| 15:45.08 | bvm | I think a lot of people are missing the point, it is subtle but significant |
| 15:45.14 | bvm | I did |
| 15:45.21 | maquis | cool |
| 15:45.41 | bvm | Good, |
| 15:46.01 | bvm | I think something important is being missed in general, not only in his analysis |
| 15:46.28 | bvm | The more technical tend to focus on the technical aspect, rather than the peculiar legal advantages the deal will bring |
| 15:47.02 | maquis | ?? |
| 15:47.03 | UtahBot | ??[x]: Usage: ?? <word> [> nick] |
| 15:47.08 | maquis | UtahBot: shut up |
| 15:47.17 | maquis | bvm: what are you pointing at? |
| 15:47.24 | bvm | it will not result in more proprietary anything, quite the opposite, I dont even think it is intended to be used |
| 15:47.48 | bvm | What I mean is that Shuttleworth et al are under a kind of obligation not to speak freely, |
| 15:48.01 | maquis | yeah... |
| 15:48.09 | bvm | but having worked on a couple of patent cases I have a good idea what they are after |
| 15:48.10 | maquis | and that goes against everything that linux stands for |
| 15:48.19 | bvm | It is like grape jelly during prohibition, |
| 15:48.28 | bvm | It is not really that people suddenly liked jelly, |
| 15:48.36 | bvm | but that they could make wine out of it |
| 15:49.14 | maquis | sorry... i lost you on the analogy... what's the grape jelly? |
| 15:49.24 | bvm | What will happen is that the existence of a legal version of the codecs will give cover for the overseas versions, which will remain the standard |
| 15:50.29 | bvm | Grape jelly was sold during prohibition to be mixed with water, |
| 15:50.35 | bvm | and fermented at home |
| 15:50.44 | tristanbob | bvm - I think read your comment about that |
| 15:51.02 | bvm | The Linspire codecs will actually allow a greater diffusion of free versions of the same |
| 15:51.04 | tristanbob | yeah, zelut is christer |
| 15:51.22 | bvm | I just think an important aspect is being missed - |
| 15:51.29 | maquis | bvm: i just read your comment on it, but i really don't agree with it... |
| 15:51.44 | tristanbob | bvm, did you read world domination 201? |
| 15:51.48 | bvm | people tend to focus on CNR vs APT, or whether we should be paying for codecs |
| 15:51.53 | bvm | eric raymond? |
| 15:51.57 | tristanbob | and ESR comments about Linspire and codecs? |
| 15:52.06 | bvm | I have |
| 15:52.29 | tristanbob | I am going to blog about the linspire/ubuntu deal very soon |
| 15:52.37 | tristanbob | http://useopensource.blogspot.com |
| 15:52.38 | bvm | I look forward to it |
| 15:52.55 | tristanbob | bvm: have you blogged about this? |
| 15:53.14 | maquis | i haven't really followed any of this issue, but i think that philosophically, i disagree with linspire on a number of levels |
| 15:53.19 | bvm | I just think that the issue of what the likely consequences will be, rather than the technical details, which are almost a distraction |
| 15:53.24 | bvm | that is the point, |
| 15:53.32 | bvm | Linspire's philosophy is irrelevant |
| 15:53.40 | bvm | they are like a figleaf |
| 15:54.01 | tristanbob | I understand your point, and it is possible |
| 15:54.42 | tristanbob | my reaction of the deal is entirely positive, it that it will help speed the adoption of open source |
| 15:54.55 | tristanbob | finding software is easier |
| 15:55.02 | bvm | all true |
| 15:55.16 | tristanbob | if you are a software company, distributing software for linux is now easier |
| 15:55.40 | bvm | yes, but even so I think that is tangential to the point of the deal from Canonical's perspective |
| 15:56.37 | tristanbob | let me see if I understand you fully |
| 15:56.37 | bvm | It is like this: only 2% of ipod music is downloaded from the legal channel, but all of it is legitimized by proxy |
| 15:56.45 | maquis | bvm: uh... |
| 15:56.59 | maquis | explain that statement a bit better? |
| 15:57.01 | tristanbob | you think ubuntu is using this deal with Linspire so that Linux will have the appearance of being legal? |
| 15:57.08 | bvm | exactly |
| 15:57.27 | maquis | ummm... i don't follow that reasoning at *all* |
| 15:57.39 | maquis | and the ipod example made me more distinctly against your reasoning |
| 15:57.48 | bvm | or more specifically, standard multimedia on Linux will become much more normalized |
| 15:57.54 | bvm | how so? |
| 15:58.10 | maquis | bvm: if you go into a store and purchase something |
| 15:58.16 | maquis | and then i go into the store and steal the same item |
| 15:58.34 | bvm | Think about how aware Shuttleworth must have been about the bad taste this would leave in a lot of people's mouths |
| 15:58.37 | maquis | the fact that you paid for your item does not legitimize my stealing it |
| 15:58.59 | bvm | It isnt theft, though, codecs are more like equations than copyrightable property |
| 15:59.04 | bvm | you cant own an equation |
| 15:59.24 | bvm | in fact that is exactly why the patents are not respected anywhere but the US |
| 15:59.29 | maquis | bvm: i'm referring to your ipod example |
| 15:59.43 | bvm | my example was probably not ideal |
| 15:59.47 | maquis | i'm as much against patents as the next person, but IP and copyright *are* important |
| 16:00.24 | bvm | The question of the patentability of algorithms is still a live issue in IP law, not settled at all |
| 16:00.35 | maquis | and i don't think that one person obeying *any* law "legitimizes" another person breaking it |
| 16:01.08 | maquis | i don't think that the existence of a legal codec makes the use of an illegal codec better |
| 16:01.45 | maquis | rather than focusing on creating a proprietary legal codec, we should be working on getting the open ones legitimized through legal means |
| 16:02.08 | bvm | I agree, I dont use any of them |
| 16:02.21 | maquis | so, what's the advantage here? |
| 16:02.52 | bvm | Once there are legal codecs all codecs will be legal |
| 16:02.59 | bvm | or pretty much legal |
| 16:03.00 | maquis | bvm: why? |
| 16:03.11 | bvm | because there will be no earthly way to tell the difference |
| 16:03.40 | bvm | whereas now just watching a DVD on a linux laptop puts you in a legal gray area |
| 16:03.43 | maquis | bvm: so, you can't tell the difference between an mp3 bought legally and an mp3 pirated |
| 16:03.48 | bvm | right |
| 16:03.49 | maquis | that doesn't mean that the pirated mp3 is legal |
| 16:03.52 | bvm | no, |
| 16:04.05 | bvm | but copyright is not the same as patenting math |
| 16:04.16 | bvm | and in any case this is not a discussion of my preferences |
| 16:04.29 | bvm | I am just trying to explain what I think are the motives of Canonical |
| 16:04.41 | maquis | if that's what their motives are, then i completely disagree with them |
| 16:04.44 | bvm | They are going to put all these codecs in their repositories starting with Feisty |
| 16:05.03 | bvm | No, because this is a US-specific issue |
| 16:05.21 | bvm | they shouldnt screw everyone in the world because the US has bad IP law |
| 16:05.26 | maquis | i don't care if this is US-specific... i still disagree with them if they're using the logic that you've presented... |
| 16:05.36 | bvm | the codecs are %100 legal everywhere but here |
| 16:05.51 | maquis | and the codecs are available to anyone regardles of where they are |
| 16:06.00 | bvm | right, |
| 16:06.07 | bvm | but they dont want to be sued in the us |
| 16:06.14 | maquis | yeah |
| 16:06.19 | bvm | so they tell the US lawyers, no we sell them in the us |
| 16:06.26 | bvm | through this company linspire |
| 16:06.34 | bvm | which has well-documented rights to sell them |
| 16:06.50 | maquis | i don't have as big of a problem with them choosing to sell them... i have a problem with the reasoning that you're claiming they're using to make that decision |
| 16:07.09 | bvm | because it encourages illegality? |
| 16:07.22 | bvm | I think of it more like civil disobedience |
| 16:07.36 | maquis | no... because you've said on multiple occasions that the existence of a legal version causes the other versions to become legal |
| 16:07.41 | maquis | which is blatantly false |
| 16:08.06 | bvm | they dont become legal at all |
| 16:08.12 | maquis | i have no problem with the illegal versions, as long as people recognize that they *are* illegal and that technically, it's a legal gray area |
| 16:08.15 | bvm | they just give great cover for the illegal ones |
| 16:08.23 | bvm | right |
| 16:08.31 | maquis | bvm: see... that totally destroys your point about civil disobedience, thne |
| 16:08.36 | bvm | it becomes a gray area, thanks to this |
| 16:08.42 | bvm | before it was black and white against us |
| 16:08.57 | maquis | your entire point about civil disobedience goes down the drain if it's "under cover" |
| 16:09.04 | bvm | not really, |
| 16:09.21 | bvm | it is a strategy to undermine an unjust law |
| 16:09.32 | maquis | that's silly |
| 16:09.48 | maquis | civil-disobedience, in order to work, has to be visible |
| 16:09.59 | maquis | period |
| 16:10.00 | bvm | Everybody is noticing this |
| 16:10.09 | maquis | anyway... i've really got to work on some stuff... |
| 16:10.17 | maquis | so, i'll agree to disagree... :) |
| 16:10.35 | bvm | Okay, but evaluate their motives in light of what I'm saying |
| 16:10.47 | maquis | i'd prefer to evaluate their motives in other ways... |
| 16:11.18 | maquis | because if i do it in light of what you're saying, i disagree more than if i look at it in other ways |
| 16:11.26 | bvm | If microsoft wins a patent case against some key element of the kernel, |
| 16:11.31 | bvm | will you stop using linux? |
| 16:11.45 | bvm | dont let me get in the way of your work, |
| 16:11.53 | bvm | thanks for the thoughts |
| 16:12.00 | maquis | no... but i also don't have a problem with using libdvdcss on occasion... :) |
| 16:12.11 | bvm | ;) my kind of guy |
| 16:12.14 | maquis | i just don't think that someone else paying for it will legitimize it in any way |
| 16:12.24 | maquis | anyway... take care |
| 16:12.29 | bvm | you too |
| 16:12.32 | maquis | and keep spreading the good word of ubuntu :) |
| 16:30.10 | *** join/#ubuntu-utah jbot_ (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt) |
| 16:30.11 | *** topic/#ubuntu-utah is Ubuntu Utah LoCo Team | http://ubuntu-utah.org | http://ubuntu-utah.ubuntuforums.org | Feb meeting canceled | Meeting with CO LoCo Feb 12: see mailing list for details | Help with the constitution: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UtahTeam/Constitution |
| 16:44.17 | tristanbob | bvm: you should have said, your kind of girl |
| 16:44.52 | sontek | so hows everyone doing? |
| 16:46.32 | bvm | now I know |
| 16:50.36 | tristanbob | sontek: fine thank you |
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| 19:19.09 | [phoenyx] | http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html |
| 19:19.38 | [phoenyx] | atoponce: more for your "why I hate windows" series |
| 19:26.19 | [phoenyx] | !geek |
| 19:26.21 | UtahBot | You might be a geek if someone mentions the Q Continuum, and you know what that means. |
| 19:37.07 | [phoenyx] | !geek |
| 19:37.07 | UtahBot | You might be a geek if your computer chair has the permanent and stiff indentation of your butt in it. |
| 19:59.57 | maquis | UtahBot: i'd have to get out to check... |
| 20:12.10 | sontek | I like vista |
| 20:12.25 | sontek | it has a few bugs in it still but for the most part its an improvement over xp |
| 20:14.00 | sontek | you don't have to hate something to like an alternative =) |
| 20:19.38 | [phoenyx] | what if it makes hardware more expensive and less efficient for everyone, even if they aren't using it? |
| 21:12.08 | maquis | AAAIIIGGGHHH!!!! |