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| 15:24.39 | Yorokobi | oy. I can't tell which is worse for bloat, Fedora or Ubuntu |
| 15:26.16 | herlo | depends on your definition of bloat |
| 15:26.45 | Yorokobi | Installed packages I have absolutely no need for. |
| 15:27.13 | herlo | Yorokobi: you might say they are bloat while others might find a need for them... |
| 15:27.29 | herlo | it's difficult to prove what's a good mix |
| 15:29.39 | cedwards | Yorokobi: Arch ruins you for bloat doesn't it. |
| 15:30.08 | Yorokobi | IMO, the base system should be the absolute minimum required: file systems, network, Xorg (if for a desktop), and their respective admin tools (if GUI). If I want NTP, NSCD, SELinux, auditd, games, etc. I'll add them later. |
| 15:30.14 | Yorokobi | cedwards, yes, yes it has. |
| 15:30.50 | herlo | Yorokobi: ntp, SELinux and auditd seem essential to me to keep you safe and secure, but then again, you probably don't agree with security |
| 15:31.34 | Yorokobi | I agree with security; but I don't need anything as granular as SELinux or intrusive as auditd. |
| 15:32.54 | cedwards | herlo: I can't speak for Yorokobi, but bloat for me is a11y, bluetooth, office tools, gimp, cheese, ppp, cd tools (i've replaced my cdrom with a battery), etc, etc. |
| 15:33.13 | cedwards | while those are generally considered a sane base set, they don't apply to me and I like to be able to remove them. |
| 15:33.24 | cedwards | ..or in the case of Arch, not install them in the first place. |
| 15:33.50 | herlo | cedwards: yeah, I don't use a few things for sure. I suppose they are in there becasue the people who make the distro decided to put them in there. |
| 15:34.05 | herlo | and that's likely because those are teh most common apps they use overall |
| 15:34.26 | herlo | cedwards: you can always build a custom spin without such extraware |
| 15:35.35 | cedwards | herlo: I would assume that would require some package-building skill, as there are dependency complications with a lot of those things. |
| 15:35.49 | herlo | nope |
| 15:35.50 | Yorokobi | Were I to become enamored of Fedora, that would be a great option. I'm installing it in VBox so I can play with rpm/yum and the RHEL way of doing things. |
| 15:35.51 | cedwards | herlo: for example, bluez is tied into evolution for whatever reason |
| 15:35.54 | herlo | not with Fedora anyway |
| 15:36.02 | herlo | it's just knowing what you want and don't want |
| 15:48.19 | eightyeight | the gnome dependency of bluez is annoying |
| 15:48.25 | eightyeight | not only fedora, but debian as well |
| 15:48.39 | eightyeight | remove bluez, remove the whole gnome desktop environment |
| 15:48.55 | cedwards | stupid |
| 15:48.59 | eightyeight | so, i just chkconfig it off |
| 15:49.24 | eightyeight | i do like debian for that reason though- installing a minimal base, and only picking what i want installed |
| 15:49.39 | eightyeight | but even then, debian thinks they know better than i, and still make critical errors |
| 15:49.55 | eightyeight | like install xserver-xorg-video-all |
| 15:50.17 | cedwards | I understand how that makes sense to ensure it'll work on most hardware |
| 15:50.29 | cedwards | ..and how else are they going to do it without knowing your hardware ahead of time? |
| 15:50.49 | eightyeight | install vesa and vga only |
| 15:51.01 | eightyeight | let the administrator install the appropriate video driver from a base install |
| 15:51.17 | eightyeight | i have yet to see a video card that vesa won't drive |
| 15:51.47 | eightyeight | on x86-compatible hardware, that is |
| 15:52.42 | cedwards | but then it'll look shitty for everyone that doesn't know how or which driver to install |
| 15:53.01 | cedwards | so the tradeoff is make it convenient for those that don't know how, or require those that do to remove the excess. |
| 15:54.24 | eightyeight | here's what i'm suggesting |
| 15:55.09 | eightyeight | in d-i, when you are selected with what to install (desktop, laptop, web server, mail server, base only), if you select desktop or laptop, you'll get the gnome desktop, and the "sane defaults", including xserver-xorg-video-all |
| 15:55.33 | eightyeight | however, if you install only base, then 'apt-get install gnome-destkop', only bring down xserver-xorg-video-vesa |
| 15:55.53 | eightyeight | after all, you can assume at that point the person doing the install is a cut above the rest |
| 15:56.41 | eightyeight | btw- tasksel does the install when selecting desktop, laptop, web, etc, not apt. it pulls down a predefined set, which can include xserver-xorg-video-all |
| 15:57.08 | eightyeight | but force gnome-desktop to only rely on -vesa. keep it simple |
| 16:02.05 | cedwards | which is, again, why I like arch. I install base, then add xorg xf86-video-intel xf86-input-evdev xf86-input-synaptics and I'm done. With only what I need. |
| 16:03.59 | eightyeight | what does it bring down the pipe when you install a desktop environment, like gnome? |
| 16:04.40 | Yorokobi | Arch has meta-packages but let's you pick and choose what you want out of those packages. |
| 16:05.01 | cedwards | http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Gnome#Installation |
| 16:06.31 | eightyeight | so, installing gnome without manually installing xorg first results in no desktop? |
| 16:08.13 | cedwards | I'm sure you understand one depends on the other.. |
| 16:08.51 | eightyeight | right, but the article you linked to implies i must install xorg manually before installing gnome |
| 16:09.10 | eightyeight | telling me that the gnome meta-package in arch doesn't depend on xorg |
| 16:09.13 | eightyeight | or am i missing something? |
| 16:10.10 | cedwards | I guess I've never tried installing in reverse order.. |
| 16:10.43 | Yorokobi | I'd be surprised to discover no dependency on xorg-server somewhere in the base gnome install. |
| 16:10.48 | eightyeight | i'm just curious more-or-less what the gnome meta-package in arch will install |
| 16:10.58 | eightyeight | as that's the base of my complaint with debian |
| 16:11.34 | eightyeight | of course i can manually install xserver-xorg-video-intel before installing gnome, but i still get xserver-xorg-video-all with the gnome install |
| 16:11.41 | eightyeight | what does arch do? |
| 16:12.07 | cedwards | the gnome meta-package in arch should install what is on that list.. and the gnome-extra meta-package installs what is listed beneath that. |
| 16:12.38 | cedwards | I can't say whether it'd assume an xorg dependency, but my guess is no. |
| 16:13.22 | eightyeight | interesting |
| 16:14.56 | cedwards | because it is a build-it-yourself I think they "assume" you know what you're doing to the point that you know X goes first, then the DE, etc. |
| 16:15.38 | eightyeight | can you grab the gnome package, rip it open, and find out? arch packages are simple, right? |
| 16:15.46 | cedwards | Yorokobi: I don't know if this has bugged you, but I just figured out how to change the default background when the screen is locked. |
| 16:15.58 | cedwards | yeah. let me look. |
| 16:17.48 | Yorokobi | /usr/share/pixmaps/backgrounds/something-default.png IIRC |
| 16:19.24 | cedwards | Yorokobi: ..and you knew about it :). |
| 16:19.29 | Yorokobi | Yep |
| 16:19.55 | Yorokobi | And how to change the GDM background image |
| 16:20.11 | cedwards | I'd found that before, just not the screensaver |
| 16:21.45 | cedwards | Yorokobi: what I'm still missing though, is how to set the background color. |
| 16:22.02 | cedwards | Yorokobi: I'm using this: /usr/share/pixmaps/backgrounds/gnome/abstract/Flow.png, which is a transparent background. |
| 16:22.18 | cedwards | Yorokobi: my normal background is blue, but in the screensaver it is green. |
| 16:22.41 | Yorokobi | cedwards, I don't know about that one. |
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| 16:26.38 | cedwards | eightyeight: just did a query on the gnome group, and it only includes what is listed on that wiki page. |
| 16:26.45 | cedwards | eightyeight: no xorg depends/assumptions. |
| 16:45.14 | Technoviking | never knew fdisk can not create partition bigger than 2tb |
| 16:45.32 | Technoviking | Should I use cfdisk or parted |
| 16:49.08 | cedwards | try cfdisk? I guess I've never had a disk that large heh |
| 16:53.05 | Technoviking | building a linux server with 24 1TB disk in a raid 6 (20TB usuable) |
| 16:53.46 | Technoviking | I will probably by 500TB worth of this servers in the next 12 month |
| 16:54.14 | Technoviking | SuperMicros getting 24 TB for less than $5000 |
| 18:27.11 | Gate | begins to drool |
| 18:27.22 | Gate | I am still impressed at my 4TB server :( |
| 18:27.45 | Gate | 3TB of which is completely unused |
| 18:28.16 | cedwards | I'm impressed with my *1TB* external drive. hah! |
| 18:30.47 | redbeard_work | idly mentions his 2tb external drive |
| 19:01.25 | fizz | tierra would win this one-up contest. he has like 8x1.5TB in a RAID5 |
| 19:18.46 | redbeard_work | fizz: an external raid? |
| 19:19.14 | fizz | server. |
| 19:21.18 | Gate | fizz: we are one-upping each other by having *less* space, not more |
| 19:21.38 | Gate | 24TB->4TB->1TB |
| 19:22.36 | synic | OneFS 59T 41T 18T 69% /ifs |
| 19:22.38 | synic | winnar! |
| 19:22.43 | synic | oh, I went the wrong way |
| 19:24.33 | fizz | the difference is tierra's is a home server. |
| 19:24.51 | fizz | synic: your isilon doesnt count :| |
| 19:26.24 | fizz | Gate: also i saw 24>4>1>2 |
| 19:26.28 | fizz | so it was going up again |
| 19:26.47 | fizz | i have a 256MB thumb drive if you want to play that game! |
| 19:27.27 | synic | My fingers don't hold any MB |
| 19:28.15 | fizz | i think i have a 32mb SD card from an old camera somewhere. |
| 19:28.39 | fizz | synic: you not in town for convention? |
| 19:28.50 | synic | I am, I'm at the salt palace right now |
| 19:28.56 | fizz | really? |
| 19:28.59 | fizz | fucker |
| 19:29.06 | fizz | errr. |
| 19:29.07 | fizz | msg |
| 19:29.11 | synic | we are hiding in the corner playing multiplayer minecraft |
| 19:29.19 | fizz | hahaha |
| 19:42.12 | Gate | I have some floppies laying around... |
| 19:42.26 | Gate | Ooooh, I have a motherboard sitting in my living room with 64KB of RAM! |
| 19:54.57 | fizz | nice :) i keep old processors as paperweights, i have an AMD486, and a cyrix 686 |
| 19:55.10 | fizz | best oldie i have though is a macintosh SE/30 |
| 19:59.05 | Gate | I keep trying to convince my father to let me have my old commodore |
| 20:00.50 | fizz | that would be sweeeeet |
| 20:08.10 | Gate | That computer taught me to read |
| 20:08.29 | Gate | The first word I could spell was load |
| 20:08.52 | Gate | Its the size of a freaking suitcase |
| 20:10.55 | fizz | i learned on a commie64 |
| 20:11.07 | fizz | loved the real floppies |
| 20:16.36 | Gate | lol, the good ol days, eh? |
| 20:16.58 | Gate | When men were men and computers could only run one program at a time |
| 20:21.08 | fizz | if that |
| 20:21.53 | Yorokobi | LOAD *,8,1 |
| 20:22.02 | Yorokobi | (IIRC) |