irclog2html for #tuxscreen on 20021122

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08:15.55*** topic/#tuxscreen is http://TuxScreen.net/ | Linux on your phone! | no more TuxScreens or JTAGs | gcc-final fails in current buildroot "ln -s `pwd`/build/stage/lib/* build/stage/arm-linux/lib/" | tinyx builds again
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08:55.02fontenotaha!!!
08:55.10fontenotsomething wrong with the variance filter
08:55.26fontenotdefinite progress
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15:26.25prpplagueibot: tcsx-1
15:26.26tcsx-1 is probably http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8485254374.html
15:30.26CosmicPenguinprpplague: morning
15:31.45prpplagueCosmicPenguin: morning
15:31.52prpplagueCosmicPenguin: whats the word of pixil
15:32.22prpplagueibot: seen sjhill
15:32.23sjhill <~NOYB@207-191-210-241.cpe.ats.mcleodusa.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #tuxscreen, 23h 57m 32s ago, saying: 'lol'.
15:32.49Mornmorning all
15:32.49sorphinprpplague: i was talkin ot him last night
15:32.56sorphinMorn: morning jules
15:33.25Mornsorphin: So far I've burned 12 of these new DVD's and only 1 bad burn
15:33.32sorphincool
15:34.01sorphinwell, -R/-RW
15:34.08Morngood luck
15:34.08sorphinincase you missed it
15:34.15sorphinheh, for $170
15:34.18sorphinit's worth it ;)
15:34.22Mornnice price
15:34.26sorphinofficemax
15:34.29sorphinnext friday
15:34.41prpplaguesorphin: whats the word on sjhill?
15:35.24sorphinprpplague: nothin really, we were doing some pgp key testing last night, and his fiancee bugged him a lil last night while we were doing so, but other than that, he seems fine
15:35.48sorphinhe should be around today at some point prolly
15:35.55prpplaguesorphin: has he got any plans/job lined up?
15:36.12MornCosmicPenguin: what is the recent news on pixil?
15:36.17sorphinnot sure.. prolly not immediately, it did just happen yesterday
15:36.38prpplagueMorn: its being open sourced
15:36.44Mornwoah!
15:36.49Mornno kidding?
15:36.52prpplagueMorn: thanks CosmicPenguin
15:37.08Morndoes that mean we can do a tuxscreen version?
15:37.19prpplagueMorn: yep, we are hope'n to start a new round of dev for it
15:37.31Mornawesome
15:40.04prpplagueMorn: i want to get it running on the zaurus, and re-work the pim's to use the sqlite backend
15:40.49MornI think pixil and a working method of using the stupid 32MB sodimm I have would be awesome in the phone
15:41.46Mornsorphin: I found out the sun I'm getting is a SS100E (SparcServer 1000E)
15:43.43Mornconfusing reuse of numbering
15:44.10sorphinand docs.sun.com does have that machine ;)
15:44.29sorphinhttp://docs.sun.com/db/coll/897.1?q=1000E
16:01.43Mornwoah... my guess for the bitrate of "The Score" was right on the money
16:02.00sorphincool
16:02.20Mornmost of the other ones are within 200Meg
16:03.16Mornshoot
16:03.19MornI just ruined a dvd
16:03.24MornI forgot to set 16:9
16:03.27Mornand it's burning at 4:3
16:04.06sorphincuz 16:9 ruins the image too much for me, othertimes, it's appropriate
16:04.18leviHow does 16:9 ruin the image?
16:04.23sorphinumm
16:04.46MornI like it
16:04.50sorphinyou take a full screen image, and compare it to one that's smashed down
16:05.01Mornyou see more of what the moive looked like in the theater
16:05.14sorphinMorn: it helps if you have a 16:9 tv tho
16:05.17leviWell, I have a 16:9 TV.
16:05.26sorphinlevi: well, i don't have that kinda $
16:05.27sorphinso...
16:06.16Morndoh!
16:06.22MornI'm an even bigger idiot
16:06.24leviI've got used to it, and even watching on 4:3 TVs I notice the pan&scan stuff
16:06.26MornIt was 4:3
16:06.30MornI just got confused
16:06.33Mornand stopped the write
16:06.37sorphindoh
16:06.38sorphin:P
16:06.39Mornso I have to rewrite
16:06.48sorphinlevi: that's nice
16:08.39leviEh, nevermind.  I guess it's just personal preference.
16:09.49sorphinit usually is
16:16.04CosmicPenguinMorn, prpplague:  The latest pixil is just waiting for me to finish merging it
16:16.12CosmicPenguinOh, and by the way, a new Microwindows has hit the streets
16:16.29scanlinecongrats
16:16.53CosmicPenguinscanline: don't even get me started - I'm gonna change camps.  Need another Picogui developer?
16:17.05scanlinehehe
16:17.12scanlinewe could always use another picogui developer =)
16:17.18CosmicPenguinAt least I got credit for the work I did
16:17.27scanlineI saw that greg mentioned you in the announcement
16:17.29CosmicPenguinWhich is unusual
16:17.36scanlinebut if you don't want me to get you started, I wont :)
16:17.40sorphinscanline: speaking of which
16:17.48sorphinscanline: i saw picogui on /. the other day ;)
16:17.59scanlinesorphin: wow, so did I ;)
16:18.11sorphinscary :P
16:18.12scanlinesorphin: got a good 120000 hits or so on the web server from that
16:18.17sorphinhehe
16:18.19CosmicPenguinscanline: if you need someone to help make a X compatability layer for Picogui, let me know
16:18.21sorphinyou were /.'d
16:18.32CosmicPenguinI've already written one from Microwindows, but it prolly won't get released.. :(
16:18.35sorphinscanline: that should scar you for a while ;)
16:19.05scanlineCosmicPenguin: something similar to the rootless X server for MacOS X would probably be necessary
16:19.17scanlinesorphin: not the first time we've been slashdotted, but it was bigger this time
16:20.39CosmicPenguinscanline: don't you have a rootless X server already?
16:21.01scanlineCosmicPenguin: we have a rootless server that lets you run PicoGUI apps inside X, but I thought you meant X apps inside PicoGUI
16:21.06CosmicPenguinOhh
16:22.21CosmicPenguinscanline: yeah, you will need something that can handle the stupid stuff like Atoms and GCs and whatnot
16:22.42scanlineyeah.. besides the fact that picogui and X have completely different rendering models :)
16:23.07CosmicPenguinThe Nano-X compatabilty layer has hooks for all of the Atom and Property functions, but then they're not passed to the server, because we don't suport them
16:23.16prpplagueCosmicPenguin: great
16:23.30CosmicPenguinprpplague: greag?
16:23.43prpplagueCosmicPenguin: how difficult will it be to get the core of pixil running under tinyx
16:23.53prpplagueCosmicPenguin: pixil ready to be mergered
16:24.29CosmicPenguinprpplague: Well, thats a loaded question
16:25.14CosmicPenguinprpplague: I have been aiming the Pixil build system to be a sort of a buildroot within a buildroot model.
16:25.26CosmicPenguinprpplague: so if you choose. you can either build Pixil for X or pixil for Nano-X.
16:25.45prpplagueCosmicPenguin: awesome
16:26.33CosmicPenguinHowever we then have a problem with the Gobal Find mechanism - basically under pixil, all the applications are managed by a deamon
16:26.58CosmicPenguinBasically a centerallized database of whats actually running (pids, etc..)
16:27.15scanlinecan't just ask the nano-x server for an app list?
16:27.26CosmicPenguinThis is required becaus in order to search a database, we have chosen to spawn the application in question to do the searching
16:27.44CosmicPenguinThat way, we can add a new app without having to change schemas or recompile the gobal search app
16:27.52CosmicPenguinThats the Palm model, by the way
16:28.45CosmicPenguinAnyway, that requires the window manager to pass application handling on to the other deamon.  That easy for us, because our window manager has that built in, but it will be difficult to add that functionality to something like Matchbox
16:32.33CosmicPenguinAnyway, this isn't #pixil, so I'll stop.  
16:32.39sorphinit's not?
16:32.47sorphinfunny, i thought it was :P
16:33.19CosmicPenguinBut I should have that ready to go soon.  They won't let me work on it at work, so I have to do it in my free time, and quite frankly, I have other proejcts that I care about a little bit more
16:33.40CosmicPenguinsorphin: thats bold words coming from the most off topic person of all time
16:33.48sorphinscanline: you mean there are any non loonies that would be in #picogui ?
16:33.52CosmicPenguinscanline: at home?
16:33.57CosmicPenguinor at work?
16:34.01scanlineCosmicPenguin: yes
16:34.05sorphinCosmicPenguin: heh, like anyone really talks about the tux in here anymore :P
16:34.11scanlinesorphin: not that I know of
16:34.13CosmicPenguinsorphin: true, true
16:34.16sorphinCosmicPenguin: besides, i was being sarcastic
16:35.15CosmicPenguinscanline: At home, I am currently working on some perl code for my new website, but I am also kinda sorta hacking on pixil.
16:35.29CosmicPenguinI still mean to get a caller-id app for my tuxphone, but I've been slacking
16:35.56CosmicPenguinAnd at work, I spend all my time getting our S/370 mainframe up and running.  I finally figured out how to compile something the other day, so I hit a breakthrough
16:35.57scanlineI finally got my hands on a null modem cable, so maybe I'll get around to updating the software on my tuxscreen
16:36.16scanlineCosmicPenguin: ooh fun
16:36.22scanlineCosmicPenguin: is the microwindows stuff for work or home?
16:36.38CosmicPenguinscanline: it used to be for work, but now its for home, sadly... :(
16:37.07scanlineso censoft is focusing more on the terminal emulation nowadays?
16:37.16CosmicPenguinprpplague, Morn:  I will do my very best to try to get pixil ready to go by the first part of December.  I might even be able to have a Tuxscreen binary image by Thanksgiving
16:37.20CosmicPenguinscanline: exclusively
16:37.25scanlineah
16:37.36sorphinCosmicPenguin: that sucks
16:37.50scanlineindeed
16:38.11CosmicPenguinsorphin: not so bad really.  Terminal emulation is kinda fun in a wierd sort of way
16:38.28sorphinmaybe if you're dilusional
16:39.02CosmicPenguinI ask you - what other oppertunity would you have to work on 3270 terminal emulation?  Seriously folks.... :)
16:39.05CosmicPenguinscanline: VT102?
16:39.11scanlineCosmicPenguin: yep
16:39.14CosmicPenguinfun stuff
16:39.31sorphinCosmicPenguin: heh, come work here, you'll see some 3270 still in production :P
16:39.34scanlineCosmicPenguin: it's pretty much all implemented, but there are some bugs and unimplemented escape codes that make it useless for most ncurses apps still
16:39.48scanlinewell actually a lot of unimplemented escapes...
16:39.58scanlineit will run links almost correctly :)
16:40.10sorphinthat are *strictly* 3270
16:40.57scanlineCosmicPenguin: I really can't stand VT102.. it's just a big mess of loosely defined standards that just happen to work sometimes
16:41.22sorphinscanline: that's about as smart as using ansi :P
16:41.53scanlineheh.. well, what use is a terminal emulator if you can't run existing apps in it?
16:42.15sorphina dumb terminal ;)
16:42.26scanlinehehe
16:46.06CosmicPenguinsorphin: don't tell me that 3270 is still in production - Thats why I'm bringing up this mainframe emulator - its our number 1 customer request
16:46.26sorphinCosmicPenguin: it's very much still in production
16:46.34sorphinyou can thank "big blue" for that
16:47.00CosmicPenguinIts not a bad protocol if you check it out - it was designed to minimize the number of packets sent to and from the terminal
16:47.05CosmicPenguinBack in the coax days, of course
16:47.15sorphinyeah
16:47.22sorphinthe prob is, finding a good emulator ;)
16:47.29CosmicPenguinIn fact, our mainframe won't acknowlege any terminals that arn't connected when the box boots up
16:47.36CosmicPenguinx3270 works ok
16:48.47sorphinwihtin reason
16:48.52sorphinsorting out the keymaps was fun
16:49.00sorphinas well as getting the window to size properly
16:49.22CosmicPenguinyeah.  Also, its a real PITA that you have be exactly within the fields
16:49.30CosmicPenguinTAB and SHIFT-TAB are your friends
16:49.35sorphinyeah
16:49.57sorphinhere we use escape to "reset" if you go out of field and get that annoying "X"
16:50.20CosmicPenguinThe funniest thing about these mainframes, is the absolute shear quanity of paper that they want to print
16:50.37CosmicPenguinI leave this thing running for a week, and I've got a 10MB "printer" file to deal with
16:51.14sorphinhehe
16:51.15sorphinyup
16:51.19scanlineWhat CPU was the 3270?
16:51.33sorphinbreak out the old "wide" printers
16:51.40sorphingawd i remember those
16:51.46scanline132 column?
16:52.02sorphinindustrial size constant feed printers
16:52.17sorphinw/ the paper w/ the holes on the ends
16:52.20sorphinforget the proper terming
16:53.08sorphinscanline: depends, how old are you? :P
16:53.11scanlineNot sure if I still have any of the wide printers... but I know I did at one time. We must still have about 4 of the continuous-feed dot matrix printers
16:53.21sorphinyup, you are
16:53.30sorphinyou're as old as my ex gf was :P
16:53.42sorphinmost recent ex that is
16:54.10sorphinscanline: don't get sent to prison then ;)
16:54.25sorphinyou'll be big bubba's picobitch
16:58.41scanlineThat slashdotting has caused more than the usual number of clueless-anti-X-zealots to appear in #picogui...
16:59.10scanlineI don't like X, but I also don't like people that dislike X "because it's bloated" or because they can't configure it right
16:59.33sorphinscanline: well, it *is* bloated severely
16:59.41sorphinyou can't deny that
16:59.51scanlineyeah, but most people overinflate X's bloatedness
16:59.58sorphinwell
17:00.24sorphinwhen you have a 100basetx network like we do here, and you NEED it, because of the amount of X displays that get exported
17:00.32scanlineThe things that bug me about X have more to do with the limitations of its protocol and the unmodular hairy codebase
17:00.34sorphinyou can tell me it's not very bloated ;)
17:02.28scanlineSomeday I'll make time and conquer my fears, and actually try to make a library for using X video drivers in other projects
17:02.32sorphinandin: what's next? BusyX? ;)
17:02.33prpplagueandersee: amen
17:02.42sorphingrr
17:02.58sorphinandersee: what's next? BusyX? ;)
17:04.00scanlineIMHO the X protocol is in exactly the wrong spot- it's not low-level enough to be a fast and flexible basis for a modern toolkit, and it's not high-level enough to be directly useful for apps
17:05.38anderseesorphin: not from me...
17:06.00sorphinandin: typical ;)
17:07.10sorphinandersee: typical..
17:07.38sorphinsince people insist on lurking in here forever
17:14.29scanlinehow I wish
17:14.32scanlinehow I wish you were here
17:14.44scanlinewe're just two lost souls swimmin' in a fish bowl, year after year
17:15.07scanlinePink Floyd and coffee shall keep me awake...
17:16.26CosmicPenguinscanline: pop in wizard of Oz and go for the trifecta.. :)
17:17.11scanlineI might have a harder time doing homework then :)
17:32.00prpplagueCosmicPenguin: i got a nice mpeg of
17:32.08prpplagueCosmicPenguin: "dark side of the rainbow"
17:32.19CosmicPenguinprpplague: ?
17:32.44prpplagueCosmicPenguin: "dark side of the moon" played ontop of "wizard of oz"
17:34.24prpplaguedamit, its only 11:30 and i need a beer!
17:34.38CosmicPenguinprpplague: mmmm..... beer
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17:58.01sorphinprpplague: drunkard
18:07.21prpplaguesorphin: thats me
18:22.12CosmicPenguin<PROTECTED>
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18:22.13CosmicPenguin<PROTECTED>
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18:22.15CosmicPenguin<PROTECTED>
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18:22.28CosmicPenguinThats actual code from a Football game I have on my mainframe
18:23.07prpplaguelol
18:23.42sorphinthat's..... sad
18:23.45CosmicPenguinText based football.  Those were the days
18:24.32sorphin/morn DVDXCopy_1.625_Cracked-pimpsRus/ :)
18:24.35sorphingrr
18:24.37sorphinah well
18:24.40sorphinMorn: DVDXCopy_1.625_Cracked-pimpsRus/
18:24.51sorphinthat look like what you want? :P
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20:44.29prpplagueBZFlag: lo
20:44.49prpplagueBZFlag: got your pink slip yet?
20:46.07BZFlagprpplague: not yet. the PR wheels move slowly.
20:46.25prpplagueBZFlag: that they do
21:00.10Russ|werkafternoon
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21:08.10sorphinheh
21:08.20sorphinprpplague: gee.. how nice of you...
21:08.33sorphin"got your pink slip yet?"  bah
21:10.16CosmicPenguinsorphin: not like you to walk the straight and narrow
21:11.01sorphini never said i did, HOWEVER, i don't rub in someone ELSE getting laid off
21:11.37sorphinand i just got a ticket on the way home, so i'm in no mood to deal with you right now :P
21:12.36prpplaguesorphin: ya like BZFlag won't be able to find another job.....
21:13.07sorphinprpplague: that's not the point
21:13.08CosmicPenguinsorphin: now you know how I feel every day
21:13.27prpplaguesorphin: ha i got one last night
21:13.45prpplaguesorphin: i pulled out in front a dps car
21:13.46sorphinCosmicPenguin: umm. i do believe YOU spoke to me 1st, i never said you had to speak to me, /ignore me if you don't want to see what i have to say to other people.
21:13.57sorphinprpplague: this is the 1st time i got snagged by a "stalker"
21:14.00sorphinaka moving radar
21:14.46sorphinall i saw was this car changing lanes behind me, didn't even look like a cop car, i look in my mirror, there are his lights
21:15.00sorphinso... i get to visit a lawyer monday
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21:16.05sorphinprpplague: and in regards to bzflag + job, that wasn't the POINT.. not to mention the fact, *anyone* finding a decent job atm, isn't gonna be that easy, even at tim's level ya know.. everyone's laying off, not hiring
21:17.19prpplaguesorphin: ya ya, i'd expext BZFlag to know i'm kidding around
21:17.39prpplaguesorphin: after all BZFlag could just kick me from the channel :(
21:18.03sorphintrue
21:18.49sorphinmaybe it's just me.. i only joke around about me wanting to get laid off, cuz i don't care, and don't like my job anyways.. i just can't do it about other people tho.. i may be an ass, but i do have limits :)
21:19.38sorphinhe wouldn't kick you anyways, you're part of the life of the channel, if he should kick anyone, it's anyone in here who hasn't said *1* word in here in the last.. oh.. month?
21:25.14prpplagueBZFlag: deal
21:25.19BZFlagheh
21:25.19sorphinhehe
21:25.42sorphini'd even chip in, if you were in the same location as me so i could join :P
21:26.11BZFlagI think with all the TuxScreens selling out, this group is more and more about embedded linux in general. Thoughts?
21:26.39prpplagueBZFlag: agreed
21:26.42BZFlagI've started (just) up a site on eLinux.org and I'd like to get toolchains and general embedded linux info up there.
21:26.59BZFlagthere's also a #eLinux channel that we could migrate to.
21:27.15prpplagueBZFlag: you're welcome to use my notes at http://www.abcsinc.com/small-linux
21:27.36prpplagueBZFlag: i currently have small-linux.com but have never had time to put anything up
21:28.14BZFlagmany of you have been added to the existing elinux sf project, and there wiki is up so docs can be added. I'm planning to bug andersee about putting his toolchains up there for starters
21:29.01sorphinyes
21:29.05prpplagueBZFlag: add me in
21:29.39sorphinprolly have to add chips, but as long as i can find the chips, it's trivial
21:31.06BZFlagprpplague: sf nick?
21:33.14sorphin:)
21:37.49prpplagueBZFlag: ouch, don't remember, try prpplague?
21:38.05prpplagueBZFlag: shows how much i use SF
21:39.18BZFlagprpplague: duh... yeah that worked. updating permissions...
21:39.41prpplagueBZFlag: thankya thankya
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21:45.45andinhi all.
21:46.03sorphinlo
21:46.33andinnow I understand what the US folks call "TGF" :)
21:46.39filehehe
21:46.42sorphinyou mean TGIF ?
21:46.49andinwell, yeah :)
21:46.51CosmicPenguinSo are we moving to #elinux or what?
21:47.16sorphinwould make sense
21:47.36sorphinnot to mention might get the lurkers talking more that don't have tuxes but do embedded linux
21:47.53sorphinand others
21:49.30CosmicPenguinBZFlag: add me in too
21:50.03CosmicPenguinhehe... :)
21:51.10andinhm. uclibc does not seem to compile, bailing out with `invalid_mbs' undeclared... interesting.
21:57.49andinhm. apparently cutting out one of the ifdefs helped.. not sure whether I did the right thing though ;)
22:15.54BZFlagCosmicPenguin: added.
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22:16.55CosmicPenguinBZFlag: much 'preciated
22:33.04Mornre's
22:35.05MonMothahum, would you consider tiny firewall floppy and similar small sized images "embedded" or just "small systems with a specific purpose"? :)
22:35.24CosmicPenguinsame diff
22:36.09MonMothaI know :)
22:36.35MonMothait just seems that some people have an objection to using the term "embedded" on something as "simple" as a single-floppy linux router/firewall
22:38.18CosmicPenguinSince all of this isn't really embedded anyway, I don't think anyone cares
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22:54.33*** topic/#tuxscreen is http://TuxScreen.net/ | Linux on your phone! | no more TuxScreens or JTAGs | gcc-final fails in current buildroot "ln -s `pwd`/build/stage/lib/* build/stage/arm-linux/lib/" | tinyx builds again
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22:59.53*** topic/#tuxscreen by BZFlag -> #eLinux for general Embedded Linux | http://TuxScreen.net/ | Linux on your phone! | no more TuxScreens or JTAGs | gcc-final fails in current buildroot "ln -s `pwd`/build/stage/lib/* build/stage/arm-linux/lib/" | tinyx builds again
23:07.16BZFlagMonMotha: in general embedded linux is any project where linux runs of flash media _or_ any system without a traditional screen/keyboard.
23:07.28BZFlaghow's that for a definition?
23:08.17MonMothaBZFlag: eh, I could go for that...these thigns are designed to be run headless or with serial consoles quite often
23:08.23BZFlagso remove the monitor/keyboard from your firewall and I'd call it embedded.
23:08.39MonMothain this case though the main idea is just to fit all the networking stuff on a floppy
23:09.11BZFlagditto for tivo, other PVR, routers, etc.
23:09.20BZFlagMonMotha: admirable goal.
23:09.23MonMothait is a router :)
23:09.35MonMothabusybox is a lifesaver...uClibc too
23:09.45BZFlagyep, I hear that. ;-)
23:10.44CosmicPenguinI would say, anything project that favors developing the smallest possible boot image
23:11.44MonMothaor working within specific space/hardware requirements?
23:12.19MonMothanot nesecarilly smallest, but rather working with in a fixed (small) amount of storage, or targeting a specific set of hardware
23:12.22MonMothaobvious restrictions apply
23:12.39MonMothathe PC doesn't count as a "specific set of hardware" :)
23:13.20MonMothakinda depends on how far you want to stretch the definition of embedded
23:13.20CosmicPenguinSUre it does
23:13.26CosmicPenguinWhats a PC anyway?  
23:13.28MonMothaI generally say embedded/"small system"
23:14.17CosmicPenguinI've got a X86 based STB on my side desk here - thats techically a PC (most of the components are similar to a PC) - but I would make the case that it is emedded
23:15.52MonMothait's really difficult to define the concept we all know we're talking about
23:18.34BZFlagtry it on a elinux wiki page. ;-)
23:19.38andinguys, am i understanding the topic correctly that I am not supposed to be able to compile gcc during the make in buildroot ?
23:21.07BZFlagandin: some folks had problems, and that command fixed it. ymmv
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23:23.45andinbecause i seemed to have a different prob - a variable got undefined in printf.c un uclibc - but that was purely due to #define's - and now it's going on seemingly ok with compiling the linux kernel by arm-uclibc-gcc...
23:24.28andin(and apologies for stupid questions - it's the first time i'm trying to compile it ;)
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