| 00:02:48 | Hiraghm | waves near everybody |
| 00:03:06 | | Hiraghm: huh? |
| 00:03:06 | Hiraghm | Ibot, I need some advice |
| 00:03:14 | | i don't know, hiraghm |
| 00:03:14 | Hiraghm | ibot info? |
| 00:04:50 | Hiraghm | hm. |
| 00:04:56 | Hiraghm | sighs, clearly disappointed |
| 00:06:45 | Hiraghm | waves again |
| 00:26:49 | scanline | is away: food... sorta |
| 00:26:59 | bhima | good evening. |
| 01:52:55 | | fontenot: wish i knew |
| 01:52:55 | fontenot | ibot: huh? |
| 01:53:52 | scanline | is back (gone 01:27:02) |
| 02:20:36 | fontenot | anyone know if buildroot is fixed yet? |
| 02:20:52 | fontenot | my dsl has been down so I might have missed any discussion of the matter |
| 02:31:36 | file | it was broken? |
| 02:34:51 | Tech | Hey guys.. |
| 02:34:57 | | somebody said a TuxScreen was http://TuxScreen.net/ order at http://tuxscreen.net/wiki/view/Users/TimRiker and http://tuxscreen.net/scrapbook/images.html or #TuxScreen |
| 02:34:57 | Tech | What is a TuxScreen? |
| 02:35:12 | Tech | hah - I should have asked earlier! |
| 03:10:26 | bhima | tuxscreens are very nifty. |
| 03:37:46 | Tech | bhima: ? |
| 03:38:10 | bhima | tech: I mean, they're great gadgets that everybody should get :) |
| 03:38:40 | Tech | Yeah.. |
| 03:38:45 | Tech | What can I do with it? |
| 03:38:54 | captain_parser | hack it to bits :) |
| 03:38:59 | Tech | heh. |
| 03:39:07 | Tech | Do they have network interfaces? |
| 03:39:15 | bhima | dual PCMCIA slots. |
| 03:39:18 | Tech | oooo |
| 03:39:21 | bhima | 3.3v only, but easilyh hacked to 5v. |
| 03:39:44 | Tech | So, a Linux based PBX w/ video-phone would be.. easy. |
| 03:39:46 | captain_parser | also if what i'm going to do soon succeeds you'll also be able to do ethernet over USB |
| 03:40:00 | bhima | captain: how are you doing to do that? |
| 03:40:23 | captain_parser | the SA1100 has a slave-USB interface on the chip |
| 03:40:52 | bhima | ahh. so not ethernet. virtual connection? |
| 03:41:00 | captain_parser | so i'll wire up the port, then start working on the rough drivers that have been written for sa1100 USB |
| 03:41:01 | bhima | usbnet like wince toys do? |
| 03:41:08 | GPSFan | captain_parser: the slave USB interface on the rev AA chips that are in the TuxScreen doesn't work. |
| 03:41:29 | captain_parser | these are AA? shoot |
| 03:41:56 | captain_parser | why'd they put broken processors in them? =( |
| 03:42:07 | GPSFan | captain_parser: unfortunately they are. you could swap out SA1100's it you are brave. ;>) |
| 03:42:10 | bhima | ick. that sucks. |
| 03:42:22 | Tech | How good is Linux supported on them? |
| 03:42:39 | captain_parser | i haven't recieved mine just yet (should be soon) - is the chip in a socket? |
| 03:42:48 | Tech | I wish I could order a good lot of them, but I can't afford more than two. |
| 03:43:14 | bhima | capt: it's not BGA. standard SMT, I forget the term. not socketed. |
| 03:43:25 | Tech | Especially when I make like 6.50 hr, part time, and just bought an expensive bike. |
| 03:43:37 | captain_parser | so i'd need to go in with a soldering iron and a sucker... |
| 03:43:47 | captain_parser | i don't suppose the bus supports the 1110? |
| 03:43:57 | GPSFan | Tech: 2 is a good number to have Linux 2.4.16 works well. |
| 03:44:06 | bhima | capt: I think that the newer ones are BGA only. |
| 03:44:20 | captain_parser | yuck |
| 03:44:25 | captain_parser | wants a USB host controller |
| 03:44:37 | bhima | ethernet. just use ethernet :) |
| 03:44:46 | Tech | Oo, this is too good to be true. |
| 03:45:09 | Tech | What kind of storage? |
| 03:45:35 | captain_parser | bhima: but USB is fun :) |
| 03:45:40 | bhima | tech: built in flash, plus whatever you hook up. |
| 03:45:46 | bhima | (CF, NFS via netowrk, etc) |
| 03:45:48 | Tech | USB would be nifty, like for webcam for the video phone. |
| 03:45:50 | bhima | (CF==compactflash) |
| 03:45:59 | bhima | tech: USB device, not host. |
| 03:46:09 | captain_parser | yeah...but the SA1100 only supports device - thats why i want a 1110 |
| 03:46:20 | bhima | it would be exceptionally non-trivial to add USB host support. |
| 03:46:23 | Tech | bhima: Ah, I see. |
| 03:46:32 | Tech | What would be the purpose of it being a USB device? |
| 03:46:42 | bhima | tech: basically, Intel threw USB device support into the strongarm for things like handheld computers. |
| 03:46:43 | captain_parser | Tech: network over USB is one example |
| 03:46:49 | bhima | good way to dock them to a desktop. |
| 03:46:58 | bhima | The Empeg/Rio Car does the same thing. |
| 03:47:00 | vosque | to the tux, right? |
| 03:48:24 | captain_parser | hrm... |
| 03:48:42 | captain_parser | thinks about hacking his desktop kernel to provide a USB relay through to the tux |
| 03:49:29 | captain_parser | bandwidth is an issue though |
| 03:50:02 | bhima | capt: already done for the ipaq stuff... |
| 03:55:55 | vosque | was pretty sure they made CF USB adaptors somewhere... |
| 03:57:25 | bhima | yes. but I think that they're weird things that are vaguely like a USB->serial adaptor, and a CF serial interface in one unit. |
| 03:57:48 | bhima | they're USB device only, for sure. |
| 03:59:15 | vosque | yikes |
| 03:59:16 | vosque | okay |
| 03:59:43 | bhima | AFAIK, USB host adaptors are CardBus only. |
| 04:03:22 | vosque | that's odd. |
| 04:04:07 | bhima | not really. USB is fairly high speed and complex. |
| 04:04:15 | bhima | not many people make USB host adaptors. |
| 04:04:25 | bhima | they're all very similiar and almost all PCI. |
| 04:04:54 | fontenot | hi again |
| 04:05:59 | fontenot | have i mentioned how much i hate pacbell? |
| 04:07:04 | bhima | they're a bell. I think it's presumed :) |
| 04:08:05 | fontenot | good point |
| 04:08:17 | bhima | what have they done to annoy you? |
| 04:08:51 | fontenot | they killed off all their competitors using anticompetitive practices in my area |
| 04:08:59 | fontenot | so now they are my only choice for dsl |
| 04:09:07 | fontenot | and their dsl sucks extremely hard |
| 04:09:16 | fontenot | and their support ppl suck |
| 04:11:30 | bhima | sighs. |
| 04:11:47 | bhima | they're a bell. |
| 04:11:52 | fontenot | yep |
| 04:11:54 | bhima | all of that seems the course for them. |
| 04:12:01 | fontenot | i guess that's all that needs said |
| 04:12:01 | bhima | gets DSL through his university. |
| 04:12:23 | bhima | multiple real world routed IPs. |
| 04:13:05 | Keyser | anyone care to comment on the difficulty of a debian/gnu linux install (on a PC, not a tux :))? |
| 04:13:43 | bhima | install openbsd! |
| 04:14:56 | Keyser | openbsd does not use a linux kernel, right? |
| 04:15:27 | bhima | That is correct. It uses a real UNIX kernel :) |
| 04:15:34 | captain_parser | lol |
| 04:15:35 | bhima | not one of those silly UNIX clone things. |
| 04:15:45 | captain_parser | BSD is technically a UNIX clone :) |
| 04:15:57 | Keyser | bhima: LOL. but open source, right? |
| 04:15:59 | vosque | and where is unix? :) |
| 04:16:02 | captain_parser | its just a lot closer to unix than linux |
| 04:16:05 | vosque | IN NETWARE! YAY! |
| 04:16:33 | bhima | vosque: SCO is UNIX(tm), yup. really! they bought the trademark, so it must be. |
| 04:17:13 | vosque | oh. |
| 04:17:19 | vosque | That makes me feel *so* much better. |
| 04:17:24 | vosque | is an obsd fan, as well. |
| 04:17:37 | bhima | admits to having a freebsd box. |
| 04:17:46 | bhima | hides in the corner. |
| 04:17:55 | vosque | hahaha |
| 04:18:00 | Keyser | what GUI does openbsd support? KDE? GNOME? neither? |
| 04:18:08 | captain_parser | X |
| 04:18:12 | vosque | I do embedded work occasioanlly, and FreeBSD is sometimes the better choice in that. |
| 04:18:25 | vosque | Keyser: I usually use KDE on it. |
| 04:18:34 | vosque | admits to using Linux on his workstations. |
| 04:18:35 | bhima | vosque: I'm working with too much wacky hardware, so I'm ending up with too much linux stuff. |
| 04:18:42 | vosque | exactly. |
| 04:18:49 | bhima | has linux on his ARM stuff right now. |
| 04:18:54 | bhima | FreeBSD on x86 mainly. |
| 04:19:00 | captain_parser | linux is good for wacky hardware |
| 04:19:13 | bhima | NetBSD on SPARC and one OpenBSD x86 box. |
| 04:19:19 | bhima | oh, and NetBSD on MIPS. |
| 04:19:32 | bhima | but I will be doing some more OpenBSD stuff when I get a chance. |
| 04:20:07 | Keyser | i think i'm gonna stick with linux. i was happy with my mandrake install (which is probably looked down upon by serious linux people :) ), but then my hard drive gave up the ghost. |
| 04:20:26 | captain_parser | linux is a good start |
| 04:21:20 | bhima | yeah. it depends on whether you're insane and want to understand in intricate detail precisely how stuff works. |
| 04:21:48 | vosque | I'm using mandrake on my laptop. If I use linux, everything on my laptop is functional. Not so on any other *nix.. so I stick with it. |
| 04:22:14 | bhima | if you have a masochistic desire to know what everys ingle file on your system does, you should start with OpenBSD. IMHO :) |
| 04:22:43 | bhima | plus, you don't have to worry about the default install having security holes like, say, *cough* redhat *cough* |
| 04:22:52 | vosque | hahaha |
| 04:22:55 | Keyser | and here i was thinking regular old linux required a masochistic desire to know what every single file on my system does! |
| 04:22:59 | bhima | (record time to cracking, 15 minutes after default install on a random IP) |
| 04:23:32 | bhima | the honeypot project rocks :) |
| 04:23:40 | vosque | Linux can be like that. |
| 04:24:00 | vosque | OpenBSD is practically psychotic about such things. |
| 04:24:25 | bhima | but the good thing is, you _will_ understand it, and it won't do weird crap behind your back. |
| 04:24:49 | vosque | I won't go that far. |
| 04:24:57 | vosque | The install is practically a test of worthiness. |
| 04:24:59 | vosque | :) |
| 04:25:25 | bhima | vosque: well, I'm just thinking that it doesn't have as many weird scripty things that hack your config files around without you knowing about it. |
| 04:25:33 | vosque | that's true. |
| 04:25:44 | bhima | "UNIX is user friendly. It's just picky about who its friends are." |
| 04:25:55 | bhima | OpenBSD is a great example of that philosophy. |
| 04:26:38 | Keyser | i wonder why that is widely considered a good thing... |
| 04:27:01 | bhima | keyser: oh, I don't consider it a good thing, actually. |
| 04:27:21 | bhima | keyser: the problem is, I like directg manipulation. |
| 04:28:09 | bhima | SOme systems are quite bad - they have complex, detailed config stuff. |
| 04:28:16 | bhima | and to make it simpler, they just let you adjust less of it. |
| 04:29:12 | bhima | but if you need to go down deeper, you must completely adandon the nifty tools and use another set of tools. |
| 04:29:52 | Keyser | hey, does anyone know what it means when (after a lock up and reboot), i have to repeatedly run fsck, to get it to report a "clean" state? |
| 04:30:14 | vosque | Do you have multiple partitions? |
| 04:30:34 | Keyser | just 1 big one, and swap. |
| 04:30:39 | Keyser | so 2 total |
| 04:30:51 | vosque | eek |
| 04:30:56 | vosque | that's usually not a good thing. |
| 04:31:00 | Keyser | after i get fsck to be happy, X still won' |
| 04:31:05 | Keyser | tt start without lockign up |
| 04:31:18 | captain_parser | my dad just sent me a link to a really cool internet draft |
| 04:31:39 | captain_parser | http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bala-mplamps-03.txt |
| 04:32:23 | Keyser | i figured it was probably a bad hard drive. so i ordered a new one, and that's why I'm considering a different linux distro |
| 04:34:45 | Keyser | i wish i could send files from my (partly dead) linux box to a windows pc, but when i try to tar up a directory so i can FTP, tar crashes and locks the box (requiring a reboot, which usually wants me to run fsck...) |
| 04:35:24 | Keyser | at one point, it looked as if fsck removed my whole "/home/user" directory, but then i magically reapeared on the next reboot... |
| 04:35:34 | vosque | that interesting.. |
| 04:35:45 | vosque | captain_parser: I actually do work with 'power over ethernet' sometimes. |
| 04:36:13 | Keyser | maybe it's just a coincidence that my first ever hard drive crash happened on linux, and not windows? that, or linux *hates* me. |
| 04:36:23 | captain_parser | vosque: as far as i can tell he's ripping on the IETF for forming the new 'sub-ip working group' |
| 04:36:44 | bhima | what standards does the sub-ip working group deal with? |
| 04:37:05 | captain_parser | nothing the IETF should be involved with :) |
| 04:37:27 | captain_parser | my dad and many others from the ITU descended on them to make sure they did it right and didn't come up with conflicting protocols |
| 04:38:03 | bhima | but protocols are only fun if they conflict! |
| 04:38:07 | captain_parser | lol |
| 04:38:18 | captain_parser | not when you're talking major telephone/data distribution systems |
| 04:39:54 | Keyser | what's everyone's favorite file system, BTW? |
| 04:40:05 | bhima | dislikes file systems. |
| 04:40:08 | captain_parser | xfs :) |
| 04:40:16 | Keyser | bhima: me too! |
| 04:40:22 | bhima | persistent object stores are a much nicer paradigm. |
| 04:40:36 | captain_parser | bhima: true but harder to implement |
| 04:40:46 | Keyser | bhima: but non-volatile RAM is too expensive in the 100GB+ size range... |
| 04:41:00 | Keyser | so i'm stuck with a file system on a disk |
| 04:41:10 | bhima | keyser: err, yes, that's why you use an object store on a disk. |
| 04:41:16 | captain_parser | i'd say either go reiser, ext3, or xfs |
| 04:41:28 | bhima | points to his newton, using an object store on ATA devies. |
| 04:42:01 | Keyser | i've never heard of xfs. i was trying to decide between reiserfs and ext3. my last one was ext2 |
| 04:42:26 | captain_parser | xfs is the SGI filesystem |
| 04:42:37 | captain_parser | journalling, high performance extensions, ACLs, etc |
| 04:42:39 | captain_parser | its very nice |
| 04:42:47 | vosque | I tried ext3.. |
| 04:42:48 | captain_parser | completely optimized for maximum bandwidth |
| 04:42:53 | vosque | went to reiserfs |
| 04:43:38 | vosque | especially since I'm on a laptop. |
| 04:43:43 | vosque | power goes out sometimes. |
| 04:43:51 | vosque | waiting for a 48G drive to fsck is not trivial. |
| 04:44:08 | Keyser | so, what happens with a journaling file system when not umounted before power loss? |
| 04:44:15 | Keyser | don't need to fsck at all? |
| 04:44:20 | captain_parser | nope |
| 04:44:28 | captain_parser | i use ext3 right now |
| 04:45:02 | vosque | well |
| 04:45:05 | vosque | it replays a log file. |
| 04:45:09 | vosque | which takes a few seconds. |
| 04:45:17 | captain_parser | i've never noticed any delay |
| 04:45:42 | vosque | I've got a bunch of partitions. |
| 04:46:01 | Keyser | doh! i spent 4 hours futzzing with my linux box last night, never getting into X. it booted right up just now, with only a two minute fsck!! |
| 04:46:03 | captain_parser | ahh - just 4 here |
| 04:46:33 | Keyser | how is that possible? |
| 04:46:42 | captain_parser | how is what possible? |
| 04:47:30 | Keyser | that it didn't boot yesterday, and it ran fsck for hours, and it lost my /home directories temporarily, and now it boots? |
| 04:47:41 | Keyser | regenerative hard drives? |
| 04:47:47 | Keyser | it healed over night |
| 04:47:50 | captain_parser | once you fsck it can boot cleanly |
| 04:49:06 | bhima | hmm. it seems that the empeg/Rio Car uses a special Philips or National Semicondcutor USB chip. |
| 04:49:17 | captain_parser | USB host? |
| 04:49:29 | bhima | If you wanna hook USB up to your tuxscreen, check out the Natsemi 9602 or Philips PDIUSBD12. |
| 04:49:30 | bhima | device. |
| 04:49:31 | bhima | not host. |
| 04:49:33 | bhima | sorry. |
| 04:49:34 | Keyser | no, it did not last night. fsck would exit with errors, and i'd run it again, a dozen times in a row, and it'd finally exit "clean" |
| 04:50:09 | Keyser | and then it'd boot, but not into X. and then i'd try to tar a directory to ftp it over to another box, and tar would crash and lock the whole box. |
| 04:50:19 | captain_parser | bhima: can that just be hooked up along the SPI bus? |
| 04:50:46 | bhima | captain: dunno. havne't looked. just got that from the kernel source. |
| 04:51:33 | captain_parser | i'll look into it |
| 04:51:43 | captain_parser | i may just have to throw a new chip in it |
| 04:52:57 | captain_parser | do you know if there's a converter between BGA and whatever the tux uses? |
| 04:54:30 | bhima | it would be chaper to buy another ARM-based device than to approach it that way, IMHO. |
| 04:54:36 | bhima | BGA is unpleaseant |
| 04:55:04 | captain_parser | good point |
| 04:55:22 | captain_parser | i guess i'll just solder in a later-rev 1100 |
| 04:55:30 | captain_parser | USB device is good enough |
| 05:00:57 | captain_parser | i like the intel web site: sockets cause problems with SA processors. solder it |
| 05:03:30 | GPSFan | bhima: it looks like the National 9602 "MIGHT" be able to be hooked to the J602 parallel interface. It would require drivers, and there would be no DRQ/DACK support. |
| 05:04:40 | bhima | gps: hmm. interesting. Is it possible to use the devices with a very simjple (PIC-level) processor? |
| 05:05:18 | sjm | Maybe using the SPI bus? |
| 05:06:03 | captain_parser | why wouldn't you get DACK? |
| 05:06:07 | GPSFan | bhima: the 9602 has a 8 bit interface or microwire. the CPU might be overwhelmed with data at full speed, but one of the newer high speed PICs might be ok. |
| 05:06:28 | GPSFan | captain_parser: there is no DRQ/DACK on the SA1100 |
| 05:06:31 | bhima | gps: well, pretending that I know not to send it too much stuff :) |
| 05:07:04 | captain_parser | if you're running it off a parallel couldn't you just write that into the driver? |
| 05:07:56 | captain_parser | oh nevermind i'm insane |
| 05:07:59 | captain_parser | wanders off |
| 05:08:23 | GPSFan | captain_parser: I think the dma mode was intended for an ISA like interface, since the 8085 like multiplexed interface is also supported. |
| 05:09:46 | GPSFan | unfortunately the 9602 isn't recomended for new designs as of april 2000. ;>( |
| 05:10:54 | GPSFan | it aslo appears to be a slave interface only ;>((( |
| 05:14:02 | bhima | yeah, I think that it's hopeless to hope for a host controller for random other CPUs. just too complex at so many levels. |
| 05:14:19 | bhima | just get a newer strongarm design with their companion chips and PCI :) |
| 05:17:23 | GPSFan | there is a newer version 9603/9604 which is available. samples too. but 28pin SOIC. |
| 05:17:33 | bhima | SOIC is workable. |
| 05:17:47 | GPSFan | for StrongArm the SA1110/1111 is the way to go. |
| 05:18:01 | bhima | somebody I know requested samples of a chip. they weren't asked or told the packaging. they were sent BGA versions. |
| 05:21:46 | bhima | wonders why they were sending out versions like that. 's not like people use BGAs for single unit prototypes normally. |
| 05:27:51 | GPSFan | bhima: you might want to look ath this chip from Phillips, here is an ap note on how to connect ti to a SA1110, as a host.http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/acrobat/applicationnotes/INTFG_1161_TO_STRONGARM-03.pdf |
| 05:28:23 | GPSFan | http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/acrobat/applicationnotes/INTFG_1161_TO_STRONGARM-03.pdf |
| 05:28:33 | bhima | interesting. looking, thanks. |
| 05:29:38 | GPSFan | It would not work off the TuxScreen's J602 since it uses a 16 bit interface. |
| 05:32:38 | bhima | wavels. |
| 05:32:40 | bhima | bbl. |
| 05:32:42 | bhima | thanks :) |
| 05:32:50 | GPSFan | nightall... |
| 05:34:31 | Keyser | <singsong>nightall will help you get your z's!</singsong> |
| 06:29:15 | fontenot | anyone used cvs buildroot lately? |
| 06:29:25 | fontenot | WHOO |
| 06:29:34 | fontenot | working xfree ts with 2.4.16 kernel!! |
| 06:29:53 | fontenot | (those 2 statements are not related BTW) |
| 06:31:35 | fontenot | now i just need to calibrate it |
| 11:22:13 | fontenot_ | bah |
| 12:28:18 | scanline | is away: shower |
| 12:38:48 | Morn | is away: working... |
| 12:59:51 | scanline | is back (gone 00:31:33) |
| 14:41:33 | scanline | is away: food... sorta |
| 14:50:21 | scanline | is back (gone 00:08:48) |
| 15:45:28 | prpplague | morning CosmicPenguin |
| 15:45:41 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: feeling any better today? |
| 15:48:26 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: much better, thank you |
| 15:48:53 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: You disappear for a few days, and then you come back and discover that AOL wants to buy RedHat.... |
| 15:50:36 | CosmicPenguin | I guess that means I'll have to move to debian..... |
| 15:50:46 | CosmicPenguin | prepares to eat alot of crow |
| 15:50:50 | prpplague | lol |
| 15:51:15 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ya i wonder if we will start using caldera... |
| 15:52:12 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: Don |
| 15:52:19 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: Don't get too hasty.... |
| 15:52:52 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: AOL-Time-Warner-Redhat might be scary, but using something sold by a guy named Ransom Love? |
| 15:53:02 | gregm | wants everyone to watch spongebob on nickelodeon starting a 2:00 EST |
| 15:53:11 | gregm | 2:00 PM |
| 15:54:00 | prpplague | ya well we still use a lot of SCO |
| 15:54:40 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: Most of our business comes from SCO... |
| 15:55:18 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: Luckly, Caldera is only about a 20 minute drive away on I-15, so if things get *too* bad, we can pay 'em a little visit.... |
| 15:55:37 | CosmicPenguin | <godfather>We'll make em an offer they can't refuse</godfather> |
| 15:55:45 | prpplague | lol |
| 15:56:03 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: well we have a hell of a time getting anything fixed on Openserver 5 |
| 15:56:52 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: I'll bet... I've heard stories about the infamous Caldera support.... |
| 15:58:38 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: we use Openserver 5 very heavly and have found tons of bugs, but they never get fixed |
| 16:57:55 | scanline | is away: zzzzz |
| 18:19:21 | Tech | is away.. TV/Work. ..(log+page) |
| 19:26:40 | EGg0 | is away: Unloading the kiln |
| 19:35:47 | EGg0 | is back (gone 00:09:08) |
| 19:57:55 | EGg0 | is away: beating head against wall |
| 21:07:22 | EGg0 | is away: I'm a slave to the kiln... |
| 21:18:59 | EGg0 | is back (gone 00:11:36) |