| 00:15:41 | jacques | yo yo yo |
| 00:18:14 | scanline | is away: food |
| 00:49:46 | scanline | is back (gone 00:31:32) |
| 01:55:02 | scanline | is away: class |
| 02:15:32 | scanline | is back (gone 00:20:29) |
| 02:26:37 | scanline | morning Sammy |
| 02:32:43 | Sammy | hello scanline :) |
| 02:33:06 | scanline | :) |
| 02:42:34 | borg1 | what is at 99 and 500 left ? |
| 02:43:56 | jacques | see tuxscreen.net |
| 04:31:16 | EGg0 | is away: Bedtime for bonzo. |
| 04:54:24 | lfjewett | Jacques you around |
| 05:14:00 | jacques | lfjewett: kinda :-) |
| 05:23:04 | lfjewett | Just wanted to tell you that I did get the serial library to build and work correctly. :-) |
| 05:23:28 | jacques | that's great :-) |
| 05:49:19 | pmisfit | anyone else trying to build latest cvs uclibc for tuxscreen? |
| 05:51:44 | Keyser[zzz] | i built from CMS, a week or so ago. |
| 05:51:48 | Keyser[zzz] | CVS, even. |
| 05:59:18 | pmisfit | the latest uclibc is giving me huge, statically-linked binaries and libs. dunno why. |
| 05:59:43 | Keyser[zzz] | i never checked the size |
| 06:00:12 | Keyser | but the kernel and fs did fit on my tux, in 4mb of flash. |
| 06:00:55 | pmisfit | ya, i'm getting a 2mb ramdisk and a normal-sized (800K or so) kernel. fits fine, but not exactly right. |
| 06:01:23 | Keyser | i'll check mine. |
| 06:01:35 | pmisfit | thx. sanity check much appreciated. |
| 06:01:51 | jacques | hmg I need to try the latest cvs version too |
| 06:02:10 | Keyser | I have a 1013kB ramdisk |
| 06:02:20 | Keyser | , and that was with picoGUI |
| 06:02:34 | Keyser | 863k on the kernel |
| 06:03:17 | pmisfit | that seems right... damb. someone on uclibc list has seen similar problem, but he was on SH not arm. |
| 06:03:57 | Keyser | what toolchain did you use? |
| 06:03:57 | pmisfit | and it just showed up a couple days ago. if you built a week ago you might not have caught it. |
| 06:04:22 | pmisfit | skiff |
| 06:05:32 | Keyser | i got one from Jacques (although i really don't know if that makes a difference) |
| 06:06:10 | pmisfit | hmm. maybe worth a try. does he have it posted? mine is just the skiff precompiled 2.95. |
| 06:06:37 | Keyser | i'll look for the link |
| 06:06:50 | Keyser | http://intimate.handhelds.org/jacques/ |
| 06:07:09 | Keyser | xchain6-i386.tar.bz2, and the README |
| 06:07:12 | pmisfit | thanks. |
| 06:07:39 | jacques | i am trying latest cvs with that toolchain right as we speak |
| 06:07:50 | jacques | downloaing kernel now |
| 06:10:04 | pmisfit | cool. i am downloading xchain too now. |
| 06:10:34 | jacques | doing make dep on kernel |
| 06:23:36 | pmisfit | unzipping/tarring... laaaarge file... |
| 06:25:40 | jacques | damn |
| 06:25:49 | jacques | some problem with current uclibc snapshot |
| 06:25:55 | jacques | kernel built fine BTW |
| 06:26:41 | jacques | make: *** No rule to make target `/home/packages/tuxscreen/buildroot-tux/sources/dl/uClibc-snapshot.tar.gz', needed by `/home/packages/tuxscreen/buildroot-tux/uClibc/Config'. Stop. |
| 06:27:11 | Keyser | did wget not get it? |
| 06:27:13 | pmisfit | that's an odd one. |
| 06:27:36 | Keyser | is it in the download directory (the .tar.gz, that is)? |
| 06:27:57 | Keyser | cause that looks like what happened to me, several times, with several different modules. |
| 06:27:58 | jacques | corect, wget did not get it for some reason |
| 06:28:09 | jacques | I am manually getting it right now |
| 06:28:52 | jacques | ok it's building uclibc now |
| 06:28:56 | pmisfit | hmm. FWIW, i bypassed the snapshot problem, commented the wget out from the Makefile, and use cvs to stay up to date. |
| 06:29:23 | pmisfit | but the snapshot gave me the same static-link problem anyway, shouldn't matter. |
| 06:30:13 | jacques | i have had problem with uclibc cvs in that the patch to the config file sometimes does not apply |
| 06:30:42 | jacques | ARG |
| 06:30:45 | jacques | what a mess |
| 06:30:51 | pmisfit | patch applied fine in my case. |
| 06:30:52 | jacques | atching file Config.h |
| 06:30:52 | jacques | Hunk #8 FAILED at 294. |
| 06:30:52 | jacques | Hunk #9 succeeded at 328 (offset 7 lines). |
| 06:30:52 | jacques | 1 out of 10 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file Config.h.rej |
| 06:30:52 | jacques | make: *** [busybox] Error 1 |
| 06:31:00 | jacques | busybox patch did not apply |
| 06:31:00 | Keyser | did you have to download tinylogin.tar.gz? the server was down, when i tried, and i had to get a copy from scanline. so i don't QUITE have exactly what's in CVS. |
| 06:31:08 | pmisfit | oh. BUSYBOX. don't get me started on that.... ;/ |
| 06:31:40 | jacques | arg |
| 06:31:47 | jacques | sorry guys, I am giving up for now |
| 06:31:54 | jacques | too many issues and I have other things to do |
| 06:32:23 | | BZFlag was last seen on #bzflag 4 hours, 47 minutes and 5 seconds ago, saying: well, gotta run. later. [Wed Jan 16 01:45:18 2002] |
| 06:32:23 | andersee | ibot: seen BZFlag? |
| 06:32:52 | pmisfit | wow. the cavalry arrives? |
| 06:34:51 | jacques | andersee: cvs buildroot busybox patch not applying |
| 06:35:47 | Keyser | is that something retrying 'make' might work on? maybe i'm imagining it, but it sounds awfully familiar. |
| 06:36:26 | jacques | i tried like 3 times and tho it got past that part, it had a problem later which would not go away |
| 06:37:22 | andersee | jacques: Hmm. |
| 06:37:31 | andersee | The patch only touches config options. |
| 06:37:55 | andersee | We really should not use a patch, but a perl/sed/awk script. |
| 06:37:58 | andersee | i.e. |
| 06:38:49 | andersee | s/\/\/#define BB_ADJTIMEX/#define BB_ADJTIMEX/ |
| 06:38:52 | andersee | etc... |
| 06:39:17 | jacques | very true |
| 06:40:31 | jacques | did a make distclean, copied sources back and am tryig one more time |
| 06:44:13 | jacques | whan is the staging_dir supposed to be populated? |
| 06:44:25 | jacques | during build of uclibc right? |
| 06:44:30 | jacques | it's not happening |
| 06:45:05 | jacques | arg |
| 06:45:32 | jacques | make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/packages/tuxscreen/buildroot-tux/uClibc' |
| 06:45:32 | jacques | + make CROSS=/home/packages/tuxscreen/buildroot-tux/staging_dir/usr/bin/arm-uclibc- PREFIX=/home/packages/tuxscreen/buildroot-tux/root -C /home/packages/tuxscreen/buildroot-tux/busybox install |
| 06:45:32 | jacques | /bin/sh: /home/packages/tuxscreen/buildroot-tux/staging_dir/usr/bin/arm-uclibc-gcc: No such file or directory |
| 06:45:35 | jacques | etc etc etc |
| 06:46:23 | andersee | looks like uclibc failed to do a make install |
| 06:46:29 | andersee | Do a 'cvs up'? |
| 06:46:48 | andersee | I checked in a minor fix this evening, that may fix that for you |
| 06:47:09 | jacques | andersee: cvs you pin uclibc dir? |
| 06:47:22 | jacques | why do i always type you instead of up??? |
| 06:47:41 | andersee | your unselfish nature I guess |
| 06:48:09 | andersee | cvs up buildroot-tux Makefile |
| 06:48:30 | andersee | then, rm -rf uClibc sources/dl/uClibc* |
| 06:48:55 | andersee | I just updated the daily snapshot, fixing a uClibc link bug |
| 06:49:02 | jacques | where do I type: cvs up buildroot-tux Makefile ? |
| 06:49:53 | andersee | nonono |
| 06:49:59 | jacques | ok I did a cvs up in buildroot-tux |
| 06:50:05 | andersee | right |
| 06:50:10 | jacques | deleted uclibc source |
| 06:50:13 | andersee | now do a |
| 06:50:20 | andersee | rm -rf uClibc sources/dl/uClibc* |
| 06:50:26 | andersee | then run make |
| 06:50:30 | jacques | ok |
| 06:50:32 | jacques | doing |
| 06:51:03 | andersee | goes to sleep |
| 06:51:06 | andersee | night |
| 06:51:10 | andersee | good luck |
| 06:51:21 | jacques | heh |
| 06:51:24 | jacques | later |
| 06:58:45 | jacques | dammit |
| 06:58:48 | jacques | same exact problem |
| 06:58:57 | jacques | giving you pfor real this time |
| 07:00:45 | pmisfit | sorry for my rudeness. hi-priority interrupt-- daughter woke up coughing, started fussing. |
| 07:01:20 | jacques | pmisfit: you didnt miss much |
| 07:02:58 | pmisfit | the tuxscreen i am configuring is actually hers. http://www.24gt.com:8030/pictures/baby/2002011123000023.jpg |
| 07:03:11 | pmisfit | oops. http://www.246gt.com:8030/pictures/baby/2002011123000023.jpg |
| 07:03:30 | jacques | heh very cool |
| 07:03:47 | Keyser | my god! either that's a giant tux, or a really small person! |
| 07:03:47 | jacques | i have thought a bit about trying to make a tuxscreen into a kid's learning computer |
| 07:04:02 | Keyser | notices the word "kid" |
| 07:04:13 | jacques | Keyser: the giant models are available for $149 |
| 07:04:39 | pmisfit | that is a 14-month-old. <proud daddy grin> |
| 07:05:42 | jacques | i am waiting on the shanip kits to be available tho |
| 07:06:00 | pmisfit | why that? |
| 07:06:23 | jacques | so i can have my tuxscreen make sounds |
| 07:06:32 | jacques | they cant do it without a hardware mod |
| 07:06:41 | Keyser | it does make sounds! mine does at boot, anyway |
| 07:06:50 | pmisfit | HAPPY_SOUND |
| 07:06:54 | jacques | really? what sounds? |
| 07:07:02 | jacques | under linux?? |
| 07:07:45 | Keyser | a 3 tone beep |
| 07:07:50 | pmisfit | tuxphone/tuxphone.c: play_tone(TONE_DEST_SPK, TONE_HAPPY); |
| 07:07:58 | jacques | ah |
| 07:08:06 | jacques | i havent tried the tuxphone stuff |
| 07:08:22 | jacques | but can it play music? |
| 07:08:28 | jacques | out of the speaker? |
| 07:08:46 | pmisfit | well, are DTMF tones music? |
| 07:08:47 | Keyser | it does! 3 beeps, just like i said. music to my ears :) |
| 07:09:30 | pmisfit | ok, the xchain has untarred. here goes. |
| 07:10:04 | jacques | i want to be able to play mp3's etc |
| 07:13:32 | jacques | and run emulators such as snes and gnuboy with sound |
| 07:13:37 | jacques | and xmame |
| 07:13:53 | lfjewett | Somebody mentioned the Shanip kits? Is that the one with an extra serial port? and if so do you know who is doing the boards? |
| 07:14:33 | jacques | i thought gork was making a kit |
| 07:14:38 | | gork was last seen on #tuxscreen 29 days, 5 hours, 16 minutes and 40 seconds ago, saying: hmm it used to be there [Tue Dec 18 01:57:58 2001] |
| 07:14:38 | jacques | ibot: seen gork |
| 07:15:12 | jacques | :-\ |
| 07:15:15 | pmisfit | oh.. i am looking at what andersee just checked in. looks promising. gonna try that first. |
| 07:15:28 | jacques | I know tangent made some for himself |
| 07:18:12 | lfjewett | Cool.. I'll ask in the mailing list soon.. I need the second serial for my robot.. Mwahahaha It's alive! |
| 07:19:23 | pmisfit | jacques: what are the major difference between your toolchain and skiff's? |
| 07:20:03 | pmisfit | other than yours gets installed in a more traditional place ;-) |
| 07:30:38 | pmisfit | damn. same problem still. i'm going to try jacques' toolchain now. |
| 07:30:58 | jacques | pmisfit: I had no better luck that you |
| 07:31:01 | jacques | :-( |
| 07:31:11 | jacques | same exact problem on my xchain |
| 07:31:24 | pmisfit | seriously? huge binaries, huge libs? |
| 07:32:07 | pmisfit | 20868 Jan 14 13:22 ld-uClibc-0.9.8.so* |
| 07:32:07 | pmisfit | 214948 Jan 14 13:22 libcrypt-0.9.8.so |
| 07:32:08 | pmisfit | 213620 Jan 14 13:22 libdl-0.9.8.so |
| 07:32:08 | pmisfit | 229716 Jan 14 13:22 libm-0.9.8.so |
| 07:32:08 | pmisfit | 209200 Jan 14 13:22 libresolv-0.9.8.so |
| 07:32:08 | pmisfit | 213504 Jan 14 13:22 libuClibc-0.9.8.so |
| 07:32:10 | pmisfit | 210772 Jan 14 13:22 libutil-0.9.8.so |
| 07:32:49 | jacques | i mean i had exact same problem I was having a bit earlier - before andersee showed up |
| 07:32:52 | lfjewett | FYI: I tried the buildroot 2 days ago. uClibc failed to compile. Have been useing old copy from a couple months ago with no problems. Had the same problem as you are now. |
| 07:32:57 | jacques | where buildroot will not even build |
| 07:33:18 | jacques | yeah, I have a month+ old copy |
| 07:33:21 | jacques | maybe I should try that |
| 07:36:22 | jacques | pmisfit: did you seen andersee's comment about the fix he just applied? |
| 07:36:31 | jacques | <andersee> I just updated the daily snapshot, fixing a uClibc link bug |
| 07:37:25 | pmisfit | and it *should* have, but... all is not well. i'm going to clean everything out and try again. |
| 07:37:53 | jacques | :-\ |
| 07:38:24 | pmisfit | i noticed my staging_dir has old crap from yesterday, still. and the old ld-uClibc may be the culprit. |
| 07:40:07 | pmisfit | i want find . -name "*.so" to come up clean before i go any further. |
| 07:46:23 | jacques | well the new uclibc is not putting anything into te staging_dir for me |
| 07:46:40 | pmisfit | all clear... massive build from scratch occurring now... |
| 07:48:07 | pmisfit | jacques: hmm. well, mine is running, i'll check to see if staging_dir gets populated after it is done. |
| 07:49:38 | jacques | please do |
| 07:50:56 | pmisfit | it looks from the Makefile like staging_dir is the infamous BUILD_DIR, which is a dependency for almost all of the targets. |
| 07:51:25 | pmisfit | and BUILD_DIR gets built by... uclibc. |
| 07:57:42 | jacques | well it creates the dir for me but puts nothing into it |
| 08:04:18 | jacques | heading home... |
| 08:04:55 | pmisfit | ok it built... but same link problem. grr. |
| 08:05:01 | pmisfit | jacques_gone: 'night. |
| 08:19:02 | julien | hi all |
| 09:13:39 | pmisfit | is away: zzzz... |
| 09:28:05 | raymond | Good morning |
| 09:59:43 | | SpaceCoaster was last seen on #tuxscreen 4 days, 6 hours, 22 minutes and 12 seconds ago, saying: pmisfit: hi, hows it going? [Sat Jan 12 03:37:31 2002] |
| 09:59:43 | pmisfit | ibot: seen SpaceCoaster |
| 10:27:16 | | GoRK was last seen on #tuxscreen 29 days, 8 hours, 29 minutes and 18 seconds ago, saying: hmm it used to be there [Tue Dec 18 01:57:58 2001] |
| 10:27:16 | scanline | ibot: seen GoRK? |
| 13:11:11 | Morn | attempts to awaken. |
| 13:12:07 | raymond | hands Morn a cup of coffee |
| 13:12:19 | Morn | thinks she'll take it. |
| 13:13:40 | raymond | Talking about coffee, gonna make me some. |
| 16:05:37 | prpplague | Morn: hey girl, i've been trying to get a chance to test that drive, but i've been swamped |
| 16:05:49 | prpplague | Morn: scouts honor, i'll get to get this weekend |
| 16:07:58 | Morn | 'k |
| 16:08:00 | Morn | no rush |
| 16:08:03 | Morn | I appreciate it |
| 16:15:36 | prpplague | hmm, my new sandisk cf card came with a warning - "this device should not be used in life support equipment" |
| 16:16:19 | prpplague | i wonder home many ppl are using bargin cf cards in life support equipment |
| 16:17:35 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: The same message is on the UCB1200 manual |
| 16:18:00 | CosmicPenguin | Just in case you need a DSP on your ventilator |
| 16:22:38 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: lol |
| 16:33:06 | Dr_Xenon | In an effort to get the buildroot source tree, I followed the directions on .../wiki/view/Main/buildroot, but when I did "make -k world", make got into an infinite loop trying to fetch uClibc, probably because the filename was wrong in the makefile. I molested the Makefile to say "UCLIBC_SOURCE=uClibc-snapshot.tar.gz", but now make whines "No rule to make target uClibc-snapshot.tar.gz, needed by /opt/buildroot-tux/uClibc/Config. Sto |
| 16:33:13 | prpplague | what does everyone use as a embedded web browser these days? |
| 16:34:04 | Dr_Xenon | "filename was wrong" == the named file did not exist at the remote site |
| 16:39:43 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: I think Konq is the best free option currently (though I should be probably be pushing ViewML, don't tell my boss...) |
| 16:40:33 | CosmicPenguin | I would say Opera, but they have this crazy notion of trying to make money.... whats up with that? |
| 16:40:41 | prpplague | lol |
| 16:45:35 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: got a url on ViewML? |
| 16:47:23 | prpplague | nevermind found it |
| 16:48:17 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: quick warning: It uses C++ and threads |
| 16:48:41 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: thats ok, this is going on an x86 system, the aquapad |
| 16:48:41 | Dr_Xenon | for the record, i resolved my problem with the infinite loop by running "make clean", checking out the latest version of the top-level Makefile, and then doing "make world". |
| 16:49:59 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: so whats the pro/con of Konq |
| 16:51:10 | prpplague | hmm, can't seem to get to fresmeat this morning |
| 16:52:58 | Dr_Xenon | spoke too soon, now "make world" is beating the hell out of tinylogin.lineo.com . sigh. |
| 16:55:15 | prpplague | doh |
| 16:55:46 | prpplague | lol Dr_Xenon creates unintentional DoS |
| 16:57:26 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i like ViewML so far, think i'll play with it and give it a try |
| 16:57:54 | ctr | konqueror rocks |
| 16:58:02 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: is the intenention to keep ViewML GPL? |
| 16:58:27 | prpplague | ctr: what kinda size are talking about on konq |
| 16:59:20 | ctr | dont know |
| 16:59:27 | ctr | but i've seen pics of it running on an ipaq |
| 16:59:33 | prpplague | ohh |
| 16:59:48 | prpplague | when i can get on freshmeat, i'll check it out |
| 16:59:59 | ctr | www.konqueror.org |
| 17:00:10 | prpplague | doh, i should have guess that |
| 17:00:30 | ctr | :) |
| 17:01:35 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: btw, from who/where can i get a copy of montavista's journeyman's package? |
| 17:01:53 | Dr_Xenon | hee. this (idiot-proof) tuxscreen thing has been an incredible time suck. i think i'll take up gambling or drinking; they would be less disruptive to my life. (maybe i'll taunt the tux by threatening to give it a beer baptism. of course, if the mormons are right, that will mean that i' |
| 17:02:06 | Dr_Xenon | ll go to latter day saint hell. sigh. you can't win.) |
| 17:03:11 | prpplague | lol |
| 17:03:47 | prpplague | Dr_Xenon: just make sure you use a quality beer, no A-B swill |
| 17:09:38 | Dr_Xenon | hee. i'm in canada, eh. i'm not even sure you can buy that watered-down beer up here. |
| 17:11:16 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: Wow.... I need to pay more attention |
| 17:12:36 | CosmicPenguin | Lets see.... pro/con of konq.... Pros: It has a good engine, it has been shrunken for embedded use. Cons: It has issues with https, it is still pretty big (QT takes up some room still) |
| 17:13:34 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: Regarding Viewml GPL - I would assume that it will stay GPL. |
| 17:14:33 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: I have no idea where you can get any montavista software.. sorry.... |
| 17:14:49 | CosmicPenguin | Dr_Xenon: We have some pretty good beer here - you would be surprised. Polgamy Porter is very, very good |
| 17:18:00 | Dr_Xenon | hee. i'm more into monogamy malt. any more than 1 gets me into all kinds of trouble. |
| 17:18:49 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ohh i thought you worked for montavista? |
| 17:20:06 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: Nah... I work for Century Embedded Technologies. We used to be partnered with Montavista, but they fired my CEO last year... :) |
| 17:22:35 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ohh |
| 17:26:35 | CosmicPenguin | They're good folks, and the distro formally known as HardHat is pretty good - though now the new preemtive schedulers are freely available, they've lost a bit of their edge |
| 17:30:20 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: we used to use the heck out of tinyterm |
| 17:30:44 | andersee | BZFlag: Got a few minutes today to help me with freeswan? |
| 17:32:16 | BZFlag | perhaps. |
| 17:34:20 | andersee | hows it goin? Havn't seen you for a while. |
| 17:35:08 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: Really? What made you change? |
| 17:36:20 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: we found a GPL telnet app for windows |
| 17:37:12 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: Doh! |
| 17:38:32 | andersee | prpplague: doesn't windows come with a term program? |
| 17:38:41 | scanline | is away: I'm busy |
| 17:38:43 | scanline | is back (gone 00:00:02) |
| 17:39:34 | prpplague | andersee: ya but it doesn't work well with SCOANSI emulation, and is limited on the types of enviroment variables it can pass to the server |
| 17:42:12 | BZFlag | andersee: busy busy. you? |
| 17:42:55 | scanline | is away: class |
| 17:51:34 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: the one thing i still like about tinyterm is the print screen function, i couldn't ever get the hang of the api for windows printing |
| 17:52:33 | andersee | Very busy. I spent the last two days in Wyoming helping a guy I know rework a WAN. 7 cisco router are now down to 6, and the firewall and mail server are running Linux and much faster for it |
| 17:53:35 | andersee | promises to himself he will stop promising stuff to people |
| 17:53:50 | prpplague | lol |
| 17:54:02 | prpplague | good luck, i've been trying for years |
| 17:54:18 | andersee | heh |
| 17:54:30 | CosmicPenguin | The words linux and Wyoming don't often appear in the same sentence |
| 17:55:56 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: seems like a nice match to me, western expansion was about freedom and exploration, a good comparison to linux... |
| 17:56:04 | andersee | This company has a pretty serious WAN going up there, and Linux is doing all the heavy lifting (except for a single SCO box since some vendor won't port things) |
| 17:56:22 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: Ever *been* to Wyoming? |
| 17:56:29 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: lol |
| 17:56:52 | andersee | It is mostly just cold and boring... |
| 17:57:05 | prpplague | andersee: we're trying hard to get away from SCO, but is kinda like herpes, somehow you just can't get rid of it |
| 17:57:15 | andersee | hehe |
| 17:57:30 | andersee | They have just one app left... |
| 17:58:00 | CosmicPenguin | I'm sure you could get it pretty cheap if you wan't to buy it from Ransom Love.... :) |
| 18:00:18 | prpplague | had a strange thought, i wonder if the code for the apollo missions is archived somewhere? |
| 18:01:58 | andersee | prpplague: that would be cool, an Apollo emulator |
| 18:02:54 | prpplague | i wonder what kind of easter eggs you could find? |
| 18:09:14 | pmisfit | andersee: thanks for making the -Bdynamic fix. big difference. |
| 18:10:26 | prpplague | andersee: just sent an email to the director of technology archives at nasa |
| 18:13:34 | andersee | pmisfit: no problem |
| 18:13:50 | andersee | pmisfit: I thought that was soo wierd when i first saw it. |
| 18:14:26 | andersee | pmisfit: I used the tuxscreen buildroot to debug and fix it, since that version of binutils showed the problem. |
| 18:15:00 | andersee | pmisfit: Now to figure out why I'm still getting too much static stuff in C++ apps... |
| 18:15:07 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: Didn't they release pictures of code printouts last year? |
| 18:15:09 | pmisfit | still seeing a couple files with too-large binaries. i.e. the ldd is big... |
| 18:15:20 | pmisfit | andersee: still seeing a couple files with too-large binaries. i.e. the ldd is big... |
| 18:16:50 | pmisfit | andersee: and nanox is humongous too, i.e. 1.9MB viewml. might be c++ |
| 18:19:23 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hmm, i don't know, if they did i missed it |
| 18:19:47 | andersee | viewml is still staticly linking vs glibc |
| 18:20:59 | pmisfit | andersee: ok, yeah, looks like viewml is the same size as in the 0.4 binary. that's not it then. |
| 18:28:49 | pmisfit | andersee: /usr/bin/ldd and /usr/bin/readelf are bigger than in 0.4. other than that, it all looks about the same. |
| 18:29:10 | pmisfit | andersee: i'll chew on this for a while and let you get back to the c++ stuff. |
| 18:29:47 | BZFlag | andersee: iBCS won't work for the sco app? ;-) |
| 18:30:05 | andersee | BZFlag: hmm, dunno.... |
| 18:30:09 | andersee | Worth a try I suppose |
| 18:30:31 | BZFlag | I used to use it alot back in boston for legacy apps. |
| 18:31:07 | BZFlag | before apc released linux versions of the ups software I ran the sco version on many a linux box under iBCS. |
| 18:31:44 | prpplague | BZFlag: the main problem we had switching from SCO to linux was that a lot of the support shell scripts were writen in ksh |
| 18:33:06 | BZFlag | so get ksh for linux. worked for me. bash in ksh mode might even be enough. |
| 18:33:56 | BZFlag | I used bash in ksh mode for some things when it worked and pdksh for the rest. |
| 18:34:15 | BZFlag | there were a few times I had to hack a script but not often. |
| 18:35:32 | andersee | heh. I may just recommend a trial of that |
| 18:36:18 | prpplague | BZFlag: ya we could have done that, but we opted to re-write the scripts to be more portable |
| 18:37:05 | Dr_Xenon | my motherboard bios has 3 (or so) modes that i can put my parallel port into. are they all Jflash-friendly? if not, is there a preferred or mandatory mode? |
| 18:38:08 | BZFlag | prpplague: better if you can move the whole app. but In my case I has non-free sco binaries so I just left them as non-portable. |
| 18:38:32 | BZFlag | Dr_Xenon: jflash wants bi directional. not ecp not epp |
| 18:41:02 | Dr_Xenon | is it possible to alter Jflash such that it doesn't expect bidirectional communication with the tux? (i.e. it just stuffs bits into the tux) |
| 18:42:05 | Dr_Xenon | (more to the point: has anyone already made such a brain-damaged Jflash?) |
| 18:47:29 | sammy_wms | BZFlag: is my toy on the way ? |
| 18:52:31 | BZFlag | sammy_wms: you sent paypal, right? for 4 phones? I forget. |
| 19:11:07 | pmisfit | wow. SpaceCoaster's kernel patch fixed my touchscreen bug. happy happy joy joy. |
| 19:11:33 | pmisfit | who would i approach to add a SpaceCoaster-patched kernel to the binary 0.4 area on tuxscreen.net/downloads? |
| 19:11:53 | pmisfit | it would save other tuxscreen newbies LOTS of time. |
| 20:25:54 | CosmicPenguin | andersee: rm linux/fs/binfmt_elf.c -- Now *thats* funny... :) |
| 20:32:44 | andersee | CosmicPenguin: hehe |
| 20:35:14 | pmisfit | is away: I'm busy |
| 20:42:51 | holden | Just won a pcmcia ethernet card on Yahoo Auctions :) |
| 20:43:19 | prpplague | ok folks, got a GPL questions, modules for the kernel don't have to be GPL, but if it is compiled in it has to be GPL, correct? |
| 20:43:41 | andersee | holden: If you won, does that mean you don't have to pay? ;-) |
| 20:43:44 | holden | prpplague: Only if you redistribute it |
| 20:44:23 | prpplague | holden: so what constitutes redistribution? |
| 20:44:58 | holden | prpplague: giving it to somebody who isn't part of "your organisation" |
| 20:45:33 | andersee | holden is mistaken. If you link a driver into the kernel, your driver is now GPL. Of course, if you do not distribute that kernel to anyone, you don't have to give the source out either |
| 20:46:15 | andersee | Anybody that gets the kernel with your driver in, is entitles to the source |
| 20:46:17 | prpplague | hmm, heres the deal, the aquapad came with a kernel module called ficguage.o , which is the battery monitior, FIC says they aren't releasing the code |
| 20:46:38 | CosmicPenguin | Modules *can* be propriatry |
| 20:46:42 | andersee | If you make a binary only kernel module, you do not need to give out the source |
| 20:46:56 | prpplague | ok thats what i thought |
| 20:47:22 | andersee | but if that driver uses so much as one inline from the kernel headers, it is now GPL... |
| 20:47:52 | prpplague | how would you tell? |
| 20:48:01 | CosmicPenguin | Why the hardware manufaturer would choose to make something like a battery monitor secret is beyond me, though |
| 20:48:20 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: it seemed odd to me as well |
| 20:48:34 | andersee | prpplague: thats where it begins to get a bit difficult |
| 20:48:48 | CosmicPenguin | "Men - we believe that people will pay us to detect their votage, and pay us well....." |
| 20:48:49 | holden | CosmicPenguin: Perhaps to stop people making clone batteries? They make a lot of money from those things... |
| 20:48:55 | CosmicPenguin | s/votage/voltage/ |
| 20:49:06 | prpplague | i can work around it, but just makes things difficult |
| 20:49:29 | CosmicPenguin | holden: They can do whatever they want with the battery, but why scare me a way from reading it? |
| 20:50:13 | holden | CosmicPenguin: You might learn how to make a cloned battery with its built in battery monitoring circuitry |
| 20:53:47 | CosmicPenguin | holden: True I guess..... I must just be old fashioned enough to think that releasing free code for your hardware actually *increases* your chances of sales.... |
| 20:55:24 | holden | CosmicPenguin: Sure it does, but that's not how sales people think- "got to keep everything secret so competitors won't copy our product". Either that or patent everything in sight. |
| 20:56:04 | AlHazWork | but that's meaningless |
| 20:56:19 | AlHazWork | if the competitor wants to copy your product they don't need specs or source code to do it |
| 20:56:31 | AlHazWork | sure, they'd appriciate 'em . . . |
| 20:57:10 | holden | AlHazWork: Preaching to the converted |
| 20:57:11 | AlHazWork | holden: maybe their managers are embarrased at how kludgy it is |
| 20:58:13 | holden | The other possibility is that it includes some NDA'd example code the battery monitor chip manufacturers gave them. |
| 20:58:31 | AlHazWork | sometimes in publically traded companies the legal people advise them against giving away for free anything that could be argued in a court of law to be an asset |
| 20:58:38 | AlHazWork | even if it's 10 minutes worth of code |
| 21:03:54 | AlHazWork | in most companies, there are good engineers and there are really good engineers, and often managers believe that the presence of really good engineers means that they have something special that nobody else has |
| 21:04:13 | AlHazWork | which is a fallacy. Their competitors have really good engineers too. |
| 21:05:02 | AlHazWork | my theory at least is that most failures that appear to be technological probably started out as a failure in managment to give the project the right direction |
| 21:05:32 | AlHazWork | it's not that they couldn't make the better product, it's that, for some reason, someone made a concious decision not to. |
| 21:06:13 | holden | AlHazWork: What kind of reason? |
| 21:07:44 | CosmicPenguin | Money, money, money |
| 21:07:53 | holden | AlHazWork: Perhaps they don't want to make a "perfect" product because there'd be no incentive to upgrade in a couple of years? |
| 21:20:28 | holden | Does anyone know of any efforts to make the gecko rendering engine easier to embed? On top of an arbitrary widget set, not GTK+. A gecko based minimal web browser on Microwindows would be really cool for webphones, webpads, set top boxes, etc. |
| 21:20:33 | CosmicPenguin | AlHazWork: Which is palm's problem |
| 21:21:48 | CosmicPenguin | holden: Not to bring up an old tired point but we should just port GTK |
| 21:22:05 | Russ|werk | andersee: linuxrc is hanging :( |
| 21:22:38 | holden | CosmicPenguin: I know. Hmm, wonder if anyone would be willing to pay me to do it? :) |
| 21:23:07 | CosmicPenguin | holden: I'll go halves with you on that... :) |
| 21:24:50 | holden | CosmicPenguin: Back to Gecko though, I'm sure it can't be all that dependant on GTK+. If it could be distilled down to basic drawing primitives etc. we'd save a _lot_ of space. |
| 21:25:24 | andersee | Russ|werk: Hanging eh? |
| 21:25:36 | andersee | Russ|werk: what changed? |
| 21:25:43 | andersee | Russ|werk: Latest uClibc? |
| 21:27:52 | CosmicPenguin | holden: I dunno... I haven't ever played with Gecko.... |
| 21:28:53 | holden | CosmicPenguin: been trying to use Mozilla as my main web browser for a few weeks on my P166. The rendering engine is nice and snappy, but the rest of the UI is dog slow. |
| 21:30:09 | holden | CosmicPenguin: It's a bit faster on Win32 than X11 |
| 21:30:30 | CosmicPenguin | holden: You tried Galeon? Thats what I use |
| 21:30:58 | Russ|werk | andersee: not sure, I'll try -D "2 weeks ago" on both uClibc and busybox |
| 21:31:09 | holden | CosmicPenguin: Last time I tried it, I couldn't get it to build. Will try again soon. |
| 21:31:51 | CosmicPenguin | holden: I would really like to get konq embedded working with nano-X, but thats a ton of work |
| 21:33:59 | holden | CosmicPenguin: You played with the Nano-X port of Mozilla at all? Perhaps that would be a good starting point for producing an Nano-X port of Gecko? |
| 21:57:41 | holden | CosmicPenguin: It's a lot more than just a rendering engine. The UI is all generated by a (rather slow) scripting language, and as I understand it the mail client, IRC client, web page designer, etc are too. It's supposedly really easy to theme. It's also huge and slow. Hence Galeon. |
| 21:59:12 | holden | CosmicPenguin: We want to support other applications. Tuxia want Mozilla to _be_ the desktop and all the apps. |
| 21:59:43 | scanline | is back (gone 04:16:48) |
| 22:00:11 | CosmicPenguin | holden: This is true. Well, ok.... if we assume for a moment that we can port the renderer, what would we use for an UI? |
| 22:00:49 | holden | CosmicPenguin: We'd have to write one. |
| 22:01:15 | holden | CosmicPenguin: Could we leverage the ViewML stuff? |
| 22:04:24 | holden | CosmicPenguin: I have been thinking of starting a new project to provide a set of easy to use libraries (mainly, a widget set) on top of Nano-X, but it's complete vapourware so far. |
| 22:05:10 | holden | CosmicPenguin: I think I may have mentioned it to you and Greg before. |
| 22:05:47 | holden | CosmicPenguin: It just seems to me that the biggest problem with Microwindows at the moment is the difficulty of writing applications for it. |
| 22:07:09 | holden | CosmicPenguin: TinyWidgets was an interesting start but it has stagnated. |
| 22:21:54 | CosmicPenguin | holden: Nano-X widgets are a dime a dozen these days..... FLNX still remains the king |
| 22:22:16 | CosmicPenguin | Though I prefer to write most of my stuff in raw nano-X.... |
| 22:22:47 | CosmicPenguin | We could rip a good chunk of ViewML apart, if I can prove to myself and others three things: |
| 22:23:01 | CosmicPenguin | 1 - We can easily bring in another engine with little effort |
| 22:23:10 | CosmicPenguin | 2 - We can get rid of threads |
| 22:23:25 | CosmicPenguin | 3 - We can get rid of the W3C library |
| 22:24:18 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hey do you know a greg hair ? |
| 22:24:39 | CosmicPenguin | Haerr? Know him? He writes my checks! |
| 22:24:51 | holden | CosmicPenguin: Don't know about no. 1 but I reckon 2 and 3 can be knocked out with one stone. A simple HTTP engine that supports multiple concurrent downloads using select() |
| 22:25:04 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ohh |
| 22:25:12 | CosmicPenguin | holden: I'm thinking cURL, though Jason thinks that curl won't do the trick |
| 22:25:26 | holden | CosmicPenguin: curl? |
| 22:26:06 | CosmicPenguin | libcurl and libhttp.... I forget the URL, and Freshmeat is down... |
| 22:26:10 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hmm, is he approachable? the guys at acute says he's got a doc on reloading the tc-3000 unit with linux |
| 22:26:53 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: He is very approchable....but that doesn't sound like something he would have.... Just loading linux, or sticking a GUI on it? |
| 22:27:57 | holden | CosmicPenguin: about the libraries, I still think we could do with a really small, simple, easy to use, modular widget set which is written in 100% portable C, not C++. TinyWidgets may still be good as a starting point, I'm planning to take a much closer look at the core of it before deciding whether to start again from scratch or not. |
| 22:28:00 | andersee | CosmicPenguin: threads are simply for non-blocking DNS lookups, right? |
| 22:28:11 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: probably both, i've got our own rootfs, but i was wondering how he got around their bootloader |
| 22:28:21 | andersee | CosmicPenguin: And you forgot eliminating the need for libstdc++ (iostreams and such) |
| 22:30:04 | holden | andersee: Hmm, I thought viewml also used them for concurrent HTTP downloads? |
| 22:31:29 | holden | andersee: Ok, so we also need to write or otherwise locate an async DNS resolver library. |
| 22:33:00 | andersee | Or adjust the current one to use less threading... |
| 22:33:10 | andersee | I do have a minimal libpthread already... |
| 22:33:33 | andersee | That may/may not be sufficient. |
| 22:33:50 | holden | andersee: we want to be portable to other OSes which don't necessarily have any posix thread support |
| 22:34:58 | andersee | select based non-blocking IO... |
| 22:36:11 | CosmicPenguin | andersee: thats right, libstdc++ sucks |
| 22:36:16 | holden | andersee: yes, it's quite doable. I don't know if there are any existing libraries we could use though. I think DJB might have some stuff, but the license on his code is very strange |
| 22:36:59 | vosque | djb is a weird, weird person. |
| 22:37:23 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: well i left a voice mail, maybe i'll hear from him, other time to start hacking |
| 22:37:31 | vosque | I just thought I would interject for no apparent reason. :) |
| 22:37:35 | prpplague | s/other/otherwise |
| 22:37:47 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: I'll have to ask him |
| 22:38:31 | holden | vosque: it's a shame because he writes such great quality code. What was that about genius and madness going hand in hand? |
| 22:38:31 | CosmicPenguin | holden: I would scrap TinyWidgets and go from scratch - I wasn't pleased with it when I started using it.... |
| 22:38:54 | vosque | holden: I blame chicago. |
| 22:39:01 | vosque | Which I can do, because I'm from there. |
| 22:39:08 | vosque | And when he's got a great idea, it's great. |
| 22:39:27 | vosque | And when he has a bad idea, it's like a power trash-heap. |
| 22:39:31 | vosque | maildir good. |
| 22:39:58 | CosmicPenguin | vosque: You know what, I heard that Ted Turner is like that too.... he is notorious for his really, really bad ideas.... |
| 22:40:09 | CosmicPenguin | But the few good ones he's had..... |
| 22:40:14 | vosque | right.. |
| 22:40:26 | holden | CosmicPenguin: Could be right about TinyWidgets. |
| 22:40:57 | CosmicPenguin | holden: I dunno..... I guess its a matter of preference, but I support a GTK+ like structure..... |
| 22:42:02 | holden | CosmicPenguin: Yep, I really prefer container layout rather than absolute positioning, especially if we want our apps to be portable to both 26" TV screens and palmtop displays... |
| 22:43:13 | andersee | absolute positioning is evil when trying to make layout changes.... |
| 22:43:36 | holden | andersee: That's where a GUI development tool like glade is invaluable |
| 22:43:43 | CosmicPenguin | andersee: Yep.... Thats a serious flaw in FLTK |
| 22:45:06 | CosmicPenguin | holden: You know, a good way to start a toolkit would be to write all the widgets needed for a browser, and then go from there... |
| 22:45:26 | CosmicPenguin | button, menu, input window, canvas, drop down box, images..... |
| 22:45:32 | CosmicPenguin | scrollbars |
| 22:46:03 | prpplague | i agree about the FLTK flaw, i've been trying applications on the yopy to webpad to desktop, and its doesn't flow well |
| 22:46:31 | CosmicPenguin | I really wish Greg would warm up to the idea of having a full time Microwindows IRC room.... we could get alot of stuff done... :( |
| 22:46:47 | holden | CosmicPenguin: I don't want to be developing a web browser and a widget set at the same time. I do like the idea of developing it alongside an app though (like how GTK+ was developed alongside the Gimp). |
| 22:47:18 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: Greg not big on irc? |
| 22:47:24 | holden | CosmicPenguin: or get a lot of talking about doing stuff done at least ;) |
| 22:48:14 | CosmicPenguin | holden: GTK+ was developed *for* the gimp.... really, the inital parts of the toolkit would be pretty easy. I'll bet that most of us have written some part of the code at least once.. |
| 22:48:42 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: He doesn't like the idea of people making choices when he's not around. He can avoid the mailing list for a month and still know whats going on |
| 22:48:55 | prpplague | ohh |
| 22:49:24 | andersee | Merely because he ensured that nothing ever happens.... ;-) |
| 22:49:25 | holden | CosmicPenguin: I suppose getting a coherent structure is the hard part, particularly a clean object oriented design in C. |
| 22:50:05 | holden | CosmicPenguin: I suppose he still doesn't let anyone else touch the CVS repository for the same reason? |
| 22:50:24 | andersee | Russ|werk: I've recompiled the latest uClibc on my netwinder. Works just fine.... |
| 22:52:23 | holden | andersee: What distro do you run on your NetWinder? I'm using Titan VI... |
| 22:52:33 | CosmicPenguin | holden: I'm not sure about the CVS repository... I've been thinking lately of having an Alan Cox like branch of it, just for half the crap I've got on my hard drive... |
| 22:52:52 | andersee | holden: Debian woody |
| 22:53:07 | CosmicPenguin | holden: I'm writing a GTK+ style container right now, in fact.... :) |
| 22:53:40 | holden | CosmicPenguin: That would be great, but a CVS repository which all the main developers had access to would be nicer. |
| 22:54:25 | holden | andersee: Must have another try with Debian some time. The past couple of times I've tried it I couldn't seem to get apt working. |
| 22:54:52 | CosmicPenguin | holden: Thats a battle to fight with him |
| 22:55:38 | andersee | holden: I had no trouble. I installed woody onto a friends netwinder recently without too much trouble |
| 22:58:25 | holden | CosmicPenguin: This seperate tree, do you mean providing anonymous access to your own private CVS repository, or making regular development releases? |
| 22:59:51 | holden | CosmicPenguin: The situation wouldn't be as bad if I could write a patch, send it to you, and have a new development release out with it included within a few days (as opposed to a few months, after Greg's spent ages testing it privately). |
| 23:00:41 | andersee | CosmicPenguin: I'd be happy to provide room on busybox.net if you want |
| 23:01:21 | andersee | is away: hunting for food |
| 23:01:33 | vosque | speaking of.. |
| 23:01:43 | vosque | I've heard familiar might be switching over to it? |
| 23:02:42 | holden | vosque: familiar switching over to what? |
| 23:02:49 | vosque | busybox. |
| 23:03:18 | holden | vosque: It doesn't use it already? That's surprising. |
| 23:03:35 | vosque | nah.. it's using gnutools.. and wasting all kinds of space. |
| 23:03:52 | holden | vosque: busybox rox |
| 23:03:55 | CosmicPenguin | holden: I would expect releasing regular "bleeding edge" patches |
| 23:04:14 | vosque | busybox has saved my butt on numerous occasions. |
| 23:04:29 | vosque | "Crap, this util is huge.. where.. oh, busybox has it. Nevermind." |
| 23:04:46 | CosmicPenguin | andersee: It would take me a little bit to get ramped up, and ultimately Greg would have to say if it was ok, but if I do, I'll let you know... :) |
| 23:04:57 | CosmicPenguin | No way? Familiar doesn't use busybox? |
| 23:05:06 | vosque | yeah |
| 23:05:11 | CosmicPenguin | Doh |
| 23:05:24 | vosque | They say they don't save much space by switching to it, but when I do, I save about a meg and a half. |
| 23:05:34 | vosque | which is a lot of space. |
| 23:05:56 | vosque | by doing it, I break ipkg, though, since it doesn't know where anything is anymore. |
| 23:05:56 | holden | vosque: what shell are they using? |
| 23:06:09 | vosque | ash or bash, depending on what you want to install. |
| 23:06:27 | CosmicPenguin | vosque: Bash? Doh! |
| 23:07:18 | vosque | yeah |
| 23:07:27 | vosque | qpe requires it right this second, so :( |
| 23:07:42 | CosmicPenguin | qpe requres bash? |
| 23:07:45 | CosmicPenguin | WTF? |
| 23:08:15 | holden | Are there any commercial products using QPE yet? |
| 23:08:22 | CosmicPenguin | holden: Sharp Zarus |
| 23:08:36 | vosque | yeah.. some weird problem.. |
| 23:08:38 | vosque | it's fixed in 1.5.0 |
| 23:08:41 | vosque | but that isn't stable. |
| 23:08:45 | vosque | so I'm not using it just yet. |
| 23:09:07 | CosmicPenguin | Not to offend any QPE folks out there, but thats just funny...... |
| 23:09:21 | CosmicPenguin | So the Sharp device isn't using Busybox then? |
| 23:09:24 | vosque | is a QPE-folk and thinks that's funny. |
| 23:09:30 | vosque | it *might* be. |
| 23:09:32 | vosque | I don't know. |
| 23:09:47 | vosque | The whole thing doesn't require it. |
| 23:09:50 | vosque | Just the konsole app. |
| 23:10:01 | holden | I think the adoption of QT embedded in the myriad of little bespoke embedded systems will really be hindered by the license fees. |
| 23:10:34 | vosque | That's questionable.. |
| 23:10:41 | vosque | The sharp thing is becoming really popular, for one. |
| 23:11:05 | holden | vosque: it's high enough volume for them to afford the license fees |
| 23:11:33 | holden | vosque: what about some working-from-his garage developer who wants to do a shareware program? |
| 23:11:49 | vosque | shareware bites. |
| 23:11:52 | vosque | :P |
| 23:11:55 | vosque | True that. |
| 23:12:09 | vosque | I rather like the way they have it all worked out, honestly. |
| 23:12:18 | vosque | If you want to make something and release it to the world, use the GPL. |
| 23:12:26 | vosque | If you want to make money, they want a cut of the take. |
| 23:12:31 | vosque | What's so horrid about that? |
| 23:13:26 | holden | vosque: The up front costs to get started. I wouldn't want to pay thousands when I didn't know for sure I could make any money from it |
| 23:13:27 | vosque | I mean, if they could scale the fees a bit.. |
| 23:13:35 | CosmicPenguin | vosque: The GPL is not good for businesses...... |
| 23:13:49 | vosque | CosmicPenguin: It's not, so they don't have to use it. |
| 23:14:10 | vosque | I like the dual-licensing concept, is all. :) |
| 23:14:16 | prpplague | its not good if you base you entire biz on GPL, |
| 23:14:34 | vosque | that's not what they're doing, though. |
| 23:14:44 | holden | prpplague: like helixcode |
| 23:15:15 | prpplague | our accounting system is totally closed source, but everything else is GPL |
| 23:17:41 | CosmicPenguin | vosque: The problem with dual licencing is the enforcement.... |
| 23:17:44 | holden | I suppose QT could do better by offering an entry level per-unit sold license fee rather than a huge fixed per-workstation development fee. |
| 23:18:37 | CosmicPenguin | Though I hear they will be selling a royalty free Zarus SDK for a set price..... |
| 23:19:36 | holden | CosmicPenguin: how much roughly are they talking about charging for that? |
| 23:23:52 | Russ|werk | arghh...bummer |
| 23:24:11 | BZFlag | zaurus is using busybox, but not for everything. ie: no busybox shell. ash and bash at present. |
| 23:24:16 | Russ|werk | I compiled dnrd with static glibc so I could get semaphores, but now it doesn't work with all my login stuff |
| 23:26:28 | CosmicPenguin | holden: I'm not sure the price...... I heard rumors at CES, so take that at face value |
| 23:27:18 | holden | CosmicPenguin: However much it is, we can do it cheaper (ie. free) :) |
| 23:28:08 | holden | CosmicPenguin: Then charge for consultation and porting applications and stuff. |
| 23:29:54 | CosmicPenguin | holden: The best model is a little from column A and a little from column B.... |
| 23:30:39 | CosmicPenguin | Get in with the hardware guys, charge em for inital bringup and a small royalty per unit... then give away the SDK and let the little guys program to their hearts content |
| 23:30:45 | holden | CosmicPenguin: You mean giving away the infrastructure free and charging for the frills like a prepackaged windows development environment? |
| 23:31:28 | andersee | i.e. give away the cake, charge for the frosting |
| 23:31:43 | holden | andersee: exactly what I was thinking |
| 23:31:43 | CosmicPenguin | andersee: sure.... the cake is the important part.... |
| 23:32:16 | holden | andersee: the small developers can make do with the basic tools, the large corporations can afford to pay for us to make life easier for them |
| 23:32:32 | CosmicPenguin | Because as a software developer, the only thing you want is to cover your costs... and the best way to do that is through inital bring up or royalty... |
| 23:32:47 | holden | CosmicPenguin: or both |
| 23:32:49 | CosmicPenguin | But if you give away the SDK, then that could mean more devices sold, which would be more royalties... |
| 23:33:22 | holden | CosmicPenguin: and more market share, which means more people writing applications |
| 23:33:28 | CosmicPenguin | And yeah, at some point somebody might build a better mousetrap, but thats what living in a captialist system is all about |
| 23:34:34 | CosmicPenguin | Either that or be like andersee, do a little consulting on your home, and be scot free..... :) |
| 23:34:43 | CosmicPenguin | s/home/own/ |
| 23:35:11 | andersee | :) |
| 23:35:23 | holden | CosmicPenguin: That's what I'm trying to get into, but I don't know how to get in touch with potential clients :( |
| 23:35:30 | andersee | mostly I'mjust lucky |
| 23:38:59 | CosmicPenguin | andersee: not the mention you're the lord and master of the two most heavily used embedded tools on the planet |
| 23:39:07 | CosmicPenguin | s/the/to/ |
| 23:39:29 | andersee | CosmicPenguin: I found that the harder I work, the luckier I get. :) |
| 23:41:24 | andersee | I was lucky to spot a couple of big holes in the software available, then I've worked hard to fill those holes. |
| 23:42:44 | andersee | http://codepoet.org/uClibc_config_fix.pl |
| 23:42:53 | andersee | Then we need something like |
| 23:42:55 | andersee | @if [ ! -f $(UCLIBC_DIR)/Config ] ; then \ |
| 23:42:55 | andersee | set -x -e; \ |
| 23:42:55 | andersee | $(SOURCE_DIR)/uClibc_config_fix.pl --arch=$(ARCH) --cross=\"$(CROSS)\" \ |
| 23:42:55 | andersee | --cc=$(CROSS)gcc-3.0 --native_cc=$(CROSS)gcc-3.0 --devel_prefix=$(BUILD_DIR) \ |
| 23:42:55 | andersee | --kernel_dir=$(KERNEL_DIR) \ |
| 23:42:56 | andersee | --file=$(UCLIBC_DIR)/extra/Configs/Config.$(ARCH) > $(UCLIBC_DIR)/Config; \ |
| 23:42:58 | andersee | fi; |
| 23:43:05 | andersee | in the Makefile |
| 23:43:31 | andersee | That will avoid any future Config file patch rejects.... |
| 23:43:32 | holden | andersee: And do people just come to you now and say "we love your work on Busybox, do you want to do this job for us"? |
| 23:43:59 | andersee | holden: well, a very few do. |
| 23:45:03 | andersee | holden: One of my current projects is for the government. They noticed some busybox utils did some things they needed, so I'm writing a full app for them (os, libc, app, the works) |
| 23:45:35 | andersee | holden: my other main contract wanted uClibc to do some things. So they are paying me to make that happen. |
| 23:48:27 | holden | andersee: So I'll just keep on with the Open Source stuff for the moment (or until I run out of money) and hope something turns up. |
| 23:49:02 | andersee | Well, you should also start contacting likely prospects... |
| 23:49:34 | andersee | holden: for example, offer to improve some company's software infrastructure. |
| 23:50:04 | andersee | holden: see what they use, then offer to write stuff that doesn't suck for them... |
| 23:50:26 | vosque | heh |
| 23:50:34 | vosque | I should start doing stuff like that. |
| 23:50:39 | vosque | Now my industry is stone dead. |
| 23:51:16 | CosmicPenguin | vosque: which industry is that? |
| 23:52:18 | vosque | wireless internet. |
| 23:52:22 | vosque | +fixed. |
| 23:52:30 | BZFlag | a gameboy advanced emulator should not be too hard to create. ;-) |
| 23:52:45 | BZFlag | eep, wrong channel. |
| 23:52:50 | vosque | hahahaha |
| 23:52:57 | vosque | is it now? |
| 23:53:07 | vosque | a gba emulator on a tuxscreen would be kinda neat, I think. |
| 23:53:10 | BZFlag | well, perhaps. |
| 23:53:16 | andersee | wants one |
| 23:53:23 | prpplague | BZFlag: isn't there linux port being worked on for the GBA? |
| 23:53:29 | BZFlag | a gba emulator on the tux would need the screen doubled. but it would be cool. |
| 23:53:35 | vosque | can see it now: "can't...answer....phone...playing...Klonoa" |
| 23:53:41 | BZFlag | prpplague: have not looked. |
| 23:54:07 | andersee | doesn't the ipaq have an gpa emulator? |
| 23:54:09 | prpplague | BZFlag: GBA would make a nice inventory device with a bar code scanner attached |
| 23:54:11 | BZFlag | it would be better if the cpu emulation could be bypassed as iirc the gba is arm based. |
| 23:54:34 | prpplague | BZFlag: yes its arm based as iirc too |
| 23:55:03 | scanline | is away: food |
| 23:56:18 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: you use viewml much? i can't seem to get it to compile. i'm getting a lot of errors about missing files |
