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| 00:17.24 | vipaca | exit |
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| 00:35.07 | incorrect | would anyone know why enabling multiviews in apache httpd would cause 403 when accessing' content from tomcat? |
| 00:48.10 | incorrect | oh i need to set JkOptions +ForwardDirectories |
| 00:48.16 | incorrect | but i need the mod_jk2 version |
| 01:11.32 | jasonb | You'll likely be sorry if you use mod_jk2. |
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| 02:38.18 | Tinjaw | anybody using tomcat5 on FC4? |
| 02:39.07 | jasonb | 5.5. I am. A little, anyway. |
| 02:40.29 | Tinjaw | jasonb: I just did a fresh minimal install of FC4 and yummed tomcat5. I get the admin panel, but no manager or welcome page. Is that a seperate package to install? |
| 02:42.12 | jasonb | I believe the admin webapp is a separate RPM. |
| 02:42.28 | jasonb | Try yum install tomcat-admin or something like that. |
| 02:42.35 | Tinjaw | ok thanks |
| 02:42.45 | jasonb | I don't remember exactly what they named their webapp packages. |
| 02:43.02 | jasonb | Also, I think they have an example webapps RPM. |
| 02:43.18 | jasonb | Also, I wouldn't expect any of their Java stuff to work correctly if I were you. |
| 02:44.34 | Tinjaw | why's that? |
| 02:45.18 | jasonb | It's all built on the GNU Java vm code, which implements an incomplete (incompatible) JVM. |
| 02:45.51 | Tinjaw | so what is the best tomcat setup to have? |
| 02:46.06 | jasonb | Even if Tomcat is able to start up on it all, that doesn't mean everything works, and lots of stuff actually breaks. |
| 02:47.13 | jasonb | The best setup that I know of is: FC4 minus *all* of the Java packages, BEA JRockit JVM (installed yourself), and Tomcat 5.5.10 (installed yourself). |
| 02:47.22 | Tinjaw | I am just about to start development of an app. I am going to develop the same app at work and at home. At work I am going to develop on windows and at home on Linux. |
| 02:48.04 | Tinjaw | OK, so prepackaged yum/rpm is what is not that great. |
| 02:48.28 | Tinjaw | what about an IBM JVM? |
| 02:48.36 | lyken | ibm or sun is fine |
| 02:48.52 | jasonb | Well, I personally don't trust the Jpackage.org Tomcat package, but I believe lots of people use it (and have some trouble). |
| 02:49.10 | lyken | i stick with what i know |
| 02:49.14 | Tinjaw | should I use yum to uninstall tomcat and then do a manual install? |
| 02:49.32 | jasonb | I implemented my own Fedora/RedHat Tomcat 5.5 RPM. I use that, and it's great, and solves lots of problems that the Jpackage.org one suffers from. |
| 02:50.09 | jasonb | IBM doesn't have a Java 1.5 JVM yet, last I knew. IBM's 1.4 JVM is very fast, so if you don't need 1.5 then IBM's JVM is great, actually. |
| 02:50.23 | jasonb | JRockit does implement 1.5, and is as fast as IBM's for Tomcat-type applications. |
| 02:50.41 | jasonb | Sun's JVM is all the way up to date (the reference implementation), but isn't as fast as JRockit nor IBM. |
| 02:51.25 | jasonb | Tinjaw: if you want to uninstall just Tomcat itself, that's just "rpm -e tomcat5" I think. |
| 02:51.41 | Tinjaw | I just did a yum remove tomcat \* |
| 02:51.53 | Tinjaw | yum remove tomcat5\* |
| 02:52.10 | jasonb | Tinjaw: The benefit of using a Tomcat RPM (versus tar.gz) is that you can upgrade, downgrade, uninstall, etc in one command. |
| 02:52.29 | Tinjaw | or three, if you typo :) |
| 02:52.43 | jasonb | heh |
| 02:53.08 | Tinjaw | should I remove java as well? |
| 02:53.30 | jasonb | I know I did. Why would I want a broken Java VM hanging around where I could accidentally invoke it? |
| 02:53.40 | jasonb | (and break things..) |
| 02:53.55 | jasonb | When I want to test the OSS VM, I know how to do that. |
| 02:54.54 | Tinjaw | ok java is gone as well. |
| 02:55.16 | jasonb | Just so you know, by default FC4 installs lots and lots of Java packages that may end up getting in the way.. lots of jars and scripts and stuff. |
| 02:55.21 | jasonb | Really sad, actually. |
| 02:56.00 | Tinjaw | wow! /usr/share/java is full of *#& |
| 02:56.05 | jasonb | Yup. |
| 02:56.19 | jasonb | I nuked all that stuff in my FC4 kickstart file. |
| 02:56.29 | Tinjaw | umm. so is /var/lib/tomcat5/server/lib even after I yum removed it. |
| 02:57.13 | jasonb | Do "rpm -qf /var/lib/tomcat5/server/lib" to see what package owns it. |
| 02:57.15 | Tinjaw | yeah, kickstart. # 56 on a list of 1000 things to learn this month. |
| 02:57.21 | jasonb | heh |
| 02:58.47 | Tinjaw | oops my bad. forgot to updatedb. |
| 02:59.30 | Tinjaw | Ahh sleeping pills kicking in. Got about 10 minutes, then off to slumper land. |
| 03:00.55 | Tinjaw | jasonb: so you recommend BEA's JDK 1.5, huh? |
| 03:02.19 | jasonb | Yes. On Linux.. at least on x86, and I think they have an opteron port, so maybe x86_64 as well. |
| 03:02.35 | jasonb | From what I've heard from Windoze users, it's fastest on that OS as well. |
| 03:02.43 | jasonb | (but I've heard less about that) |
| 03:03.13 | jasonb | If IBM had a 1.5, and if I benchmarked it and found it to be about the same speed as JRockit or faster, I'd recommend that. |
| 03:04.46 | Tinjaw | jasonb: thanks, you have been a great help. I am now off to sleep so I can get to work at 5 a.m. sharp on this project. maybe i'll see you here tomorow. g'night. |
| 03:06.32 | jasonb | Yeah, still no IBM 1.5 JDK: http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/java/jdk/index.html |
| 03:06.44 | jasonb | Tinjaw: G'night. |
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| 06:51.32 | charlse | hi all |
| 06:51.52 | charlse | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:52.08 | lyken | no idea what that is.. |
| 06:52.16 | charlse | who can change it to jpg or other formt !? |
| 06:52.27 | charlse | http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/tomcat-5.5-doc/architecture/startup/serverStartup.pdf |
| 06:52.33 | charlse | other format |
| 06:53.26 | jasonb | charlse: Where did you get the link to that doc? |
| 06:53.53 | charlse | http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/tomcat-5.5-doc/architecture/startup.html |
| 06:53.56 | jasonb | charlse: The doc consists of 8 completely blank "pages". :) |
| 06:54.12 | charlse | but why it? |
| 06:54.18 | charlse | why it is blank? |
| 06:54.50 | lyken | cause its probably automatically generated |
| 06:55.02 | lyken | and it broke being automatically generated |
| 06:55.11 | jasonb | exactly! |
| 06:55.19 | charlse | I get an alert of "An unrecoginzed token '/p35.76' was found " |
| 06:55.35 | charlse | ? |
| 06:55.42 | charlse | how to the uml? |
| 06:55.43 | jasonb | That actually means "Adobe sucks". |
| 06:56.04 | charlse | how to get the UML sequence diagram |
| 06:56.26 | jasonb | Hmm.. I'm trying to remember who posted those. I think it was Yoav Shapira. |
| 06:56.30 | jasonb | But, I could be wrong. |
| 06:57.25 | lyken | why dont you just get that off a mirror? |
| 06:57.33 | charlse | I get the uml has some monthes ago,but it is get the same alert too. ;( |
| 06:57.41 | jasonb | It would likely be broken in the same way on some other mirror. |
| 06:57.52 | lyken | not always though.. |
| 06:59.27 | charlse | how to get that? or have another format of the uml? ;) |
| 07:00.09 | jasonb | Mail Yoav S. and ask him. |
| 07:00.20 | charlse | would the developers be in the channel? |
| 07:00.23 | jasonb | Actually, reportedly he's on vacation right now. |
| 07:00.33 | jasonb | They basically never are. |
| 07:00.49 | jasonb | You could ask on the tomcat-user mailing list. |
| 07:00.54 | charlse | ;) |
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| 11:42.02 | Tinjaw | Good Morning |
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| 19:13.37 | Cow_woC | hi |
| 19:13.44 | Cow_woC | Is anyone here familiar with the Tomcat source? |
| 19:14.02 | Cow_woC | I'm seeing it caches resources in WebappClassLoader in a ResourceEntry but I don't see where it ever frees it...? |
| 19:31.32 | jasonb | Hmm, well, I don't remember the answer to that one. |
| 19:32.20 | jasonb | But, let me ask this: why would you think Tomcat should ever de-allocate cached web resources? If it's still serving, shouldn't it stay in the cache if it should be cached in the first place? |
| 19:34.16 | Cow_woC | no |
| 19:34.28 | Cow_woC | because I have a website with a lot of large images |
| 19:34.30 | Cow_woC | and thousands of them |
| 19:34.45 | Cow_woC | now, why would I want Tomcat to keep thousands of images in memory if only 5% of them were actually clicked on recently? |
| 19:35.20 | Cow_woC | Tomcat needs even the most basic sort of resource control, right now it is a disaster :) |
| 19:35.55 | jasonb | So you need better cache control. |
| 19:36.12 | jasonb | Somewhere I think there are controls for that, and yeah, I guess it matters in your case. :) |
| 19:40.00 | jasonb | Hmm: |
| 19:40.01 | jasonb | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:40.01 | jasonb | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:40.01 | jasonb | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:40.01 | jasonb | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:40.23 | jasonb | I wonder if 1) that's configurable, 2) if it really does use that default. |
| 19:41.04 | jasonb | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:41.04 | jasonb | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:41.04 | jasonb | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:41.04 | jasonb | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:41.04 | jasonb | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:41.05 | jasonb | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:43.11 | Cow_woC | jasonb: which file is this in? |
| 19:43.35 | Cow_woC | (thanks btw!) |
| 19:47.34 | Cow_woC | I see this is in the context... not sure that this value is ever used in the WebappClassLoader though |
| 19:48.06 | jasonb | It's in the naming resources package.. |
| 19:48.25 | jasonb | org.apache.catalina.naming.resources.ResourceCache |
| 19:48.42 | jasonb | Also see ProxyDirContext in the same package for how it's used. |
| 19:49.17 | Cow_woC | yes, but I just checked and WebappClassLoader doesn't use it |
| 19:49.21 | jasonb | I'm still not sure it's configurable by just changing the config files. |
| 19:49.31 | Cow_woC | Values are added into resourceEntries but *never* removed |
| 19:49.32 | jasonb | Well, are you sure about that? |
| 19:49.38 | jasonb | I think it ends up being used indirectly. |
| 19:49.47 | Cow_woC | check the file... you'll see what I mean |
| 19:49.53 | Cow_woC | I don't see any indirect uses either |
| 19:50.10 | jasonb | Well, but you're talking about static resources being served right? |
| 19:50.14 | Cow_woC | out of a JAR |
| 19:50.59 | jasonb | Run it in a debugger and set a breakpoint .. then hit your webapp, requesting a resource. That's one way to find out for sure. |
| 19:51.32 | Cow_woC | the reason I found this in the first place was using a memory profiler |
| 19:51.37 | Cow_woC | the resources are never getting released |
| 19:51.42 | Cow_woC | Tomcat has been running for over an hour now |
| 19:52.18 | Cow_woC | and it is clear from the source-code the only time "resourceEntries" is ever cleared is when the ClassLoader is killed |
| 19:58.21 | jasonb | I just found that the cache controls can be configured as attributes of the StandardContext: |
| 19:58.23 | jasonb | cacheMaxSize |
| 19:58.28 | jasonb | (for example) |
| 19:58.36 | jasonb | http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/tomcat-5.5-doc/config/context.html |
| 19:59.37 | jasonb | Also, you can set cachingAllowed="false" if you don't want it to cache. |
| 20:01.03 | jasonb | I agree with you that it doesn't appear to be dynamic enough. Why should it keep a big file in RAM, using up precious cache RAM if it was just accessed once when there happened to be RAM cache space, but then never accessed again? It should age those out of the cache. |
| 20:12.09 | jasonb | You filed bug 36293? I agree except: Remy's going to say that your OutOfMemoryErrors are not caused by the missing feature you're asking for. They're caused in your setup because you haven't configured your max cache size to be smaller, or your JVM isn't configured with enough total RAM, etc. |
| 20:12.41 | jasonb | But, I totally agree that there's a missing feature: the cache should be configurable to time resources out of the cache. |
| 20:18.13 | Cow_woC | sorry back |
| 20:18.23 | Cow_woC | reading ... |
| 20:19.24 | Cow_woC | jasonb: right, except that increasing the max memory isn't an option.. there isn't enough memory in the world for that :) |
| 20:19.41 | Cow_woC | jasonb: the point isn't the max memory limit, the point is that it should never go up that high in the 1st place |
| 20:20.18 | Cow_woC | jasonb: I don't think "cachingAllowed" links to WebappClassLoader, does it? |
| 20:20.32 | jasonb | No, I meant that part of the problem could be alleviated by *decreasing* the cacheMaxSize. |
| 20:20.51 | Cow_woC | jasonb: but cacheMaxSize isn't used by WebappClassLoader at all |
| 20:21.23 | Cow_woC | which is basically what I'm saying the bug is |
| 20:21.27 | Cow_woC | it should.. |
| 20:21.51 | jasonb | Cow_woC: Something you'll come to realize about Tomcat's source is: all over the place things are used indirectly, and in many cases it's nearly impossible to know if one piece of code ever uses another piece of code. The only real way to know for sure is to try it in a debugger. |
| 20:22.11 | jasonb | Too many things are abstracted, or used in suttle ways. |
| 20:23.00 | Cow_woC | jasonb: but ... it is impossible |
| 20:23.02 | jasonb | I've been burned on that too many times now. |
| 20:23.07 | Cow_woC | jasonb: I'm telling you .. look at the code |
| 20:23.17 | Cow_woC | there is no way that anyone ever removes elements from the map |
| 20:23.24 | Cow_woC | jasonb: because it is protected |
| 20:23.30 | Cow_woC | jasonb: and all its subclasses don't reference it |
| 20:23.39 | jasonb | Cow_woC: Okay, well, you might be right. What I'm saying is: I can't make a determination like that just by looking at the code. |
| 20:23.41 | Cow_woC | jasonb: and WebappClassLoader doesn't ever remove from it either |
| 20:23.54 | Cow_woC | jasonb: hmm, well, check out what remm wrote |
| 20:24.01 | Cow_woC | jasonb: he closed it against as won't fix |
| 20:24.06 | Cow_woC | I totally hate dealing with him |
| 20:24.22 | Cow_woC | he didn't even bother reading what I wrote |
| 20:24.25 | jasonb | Above and beyond the code you're looking at, there could be other code that some class higher up the request chain is calling. |
| 20:25.03 | jasonb | Don't be surprised if he just always does that. |
| 20:25.14 | Cow_woC | well, what am I supposed to do? reopen the issue? |
| 20:25.57 | jasonb | When was the last time you saw a bug filed against Tomcat by me? It's been a very, very long time, and the reason isn't because I haven't found bugs that I even know how to fix. It's because I'm mostly sure the bug report will just end up Resolved/Invalid or Closed/WontFix. |
| 20:26.07 | Cow_woC | If I'm wrong that's fine, I'm just asking for Remy to tell me why I am wrong... but closing it for no reason pisses me off |
| 20:26.09 | jasonb | It's been like this for years now. |
| 20:26.21 | jasonb | He does that to everyone. |
| 20:26.30 | Cow_woC | jasonb: well this is unacceptable. Why doesn't someone boot his ass? |
| 20:26.39 | Cow_woC | who put him in charge? |
| 20:27.45 | jasonb | Well, he actually fixes more things than he breaks, which is why people don't try to overpower him. |
| 20:28.11 | jasonb | He's been voted in as PMC Chair of the Tomcat top-level project. |
| 20:28.22 | jasonb | He's got that for one year, then someone else is voted in. |
| 20:29.05 | jasonb | But, he'll probably remain a committer like he is now, so he'll likely still handle bugs anyway. |
| 20:29.17 | jasonb | I don't expect that situation to improve any time soon. |
| 20:29.49 | Cow_woC | this is just silly |
| 20:30.00 | Cow_woC | and the very reason I dislike open source projects |
| 20:30.07 | Cow_woC | people like this bring open-source a bad name |
| 20:30.20 | jasonb | Yes, ultimately. |
| 20:30.20 | Cow_woC | there is always some egomaniac at the top of the chain |
| 20:30.27 | jasonb | heh |
| 20:30.38 | jasonb | It's funny, that's how it is in "real life" as well. |
| 20:30.41 | Cow_woC | not really |
| 20:30.48 | Cow_woC | if you don't bring in money, you get your ass fired |
| 20:30.59 | Cow_woC | if you piss off your customers, you don't make money |
| 20:31.04 | Cow_woC | and get fired |
| 20:31.25 | Cow_woC | we need to apply market economics to open-source somehow... |
| 20:31.39 | jasonb | Well, but because the business still runs doesn't mean that the big boss *isn't* an egomaniac, nor an obsessive compulsive about all the wrong things. :) |
| 20:32.36 | jasonb | Hmm.. well, there's also the line of thought that says that the democratic/socialistic nature of how open source gets organized and written doesn't mix well with capitalistic business.. |
| 20:33.42 | jasonb | There's a reason why the OSS licenses are split down the middle, GPL vs. BSD. |
| 20:35.51 | jasonb | Also, as far as scanning the whole source tree to see what references what, this actually ends up not working due to reflection, which is heavily used in Tomcat due to JMX being mixed in there (and other reasons). |
| 20:36.28 | jasonb | So, in the end you can't be 100% sure a class doesn't indirectly end up using another class just by searching for text strings in the source tree. |
| 20:36.43 | jasonb | (unfortunately) |
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| 20:37.41 | Cow_woC | jasonb: re scanning the tree -> I searched for the text... so reflection would have been picked up |
| 20:38.04 | Cow_woC | I just did a simple text search for referenceEntries across the entire directory tree |
| 20:39.43 | jasonb | "I searched for the text... so reflection would have been picked up" <-- What I'm saying is that this statement (and practice) is not 100% reliable. |
| 20:41.26 | Cow_woC | true |
| 20:41.34 | Cow_woC | Let remy offer the counter argument |
| 20:41.38 | Cow_woC | I did my best |
| 20:42.41 | jasonb | Thanks for trying. I'm positive I'm not the only one who appreciates the effort. |
| 20:43.16 | Cow_woC | :) |
| 20:43.17 | Cow_woC | thanks |
| 20:43.53 | Cow_woC | you know .. that's the thing... they should rate O-S projects based upon user feedback |
| 20:44.06 | Cow_woC | then I wouldn't ever use any software with a poor rating |
| 20:53.51 | jasonb | That's already been proposed, and I'd guess that there are already web sites to do that in the works. |
| 20:54.17 | jasonb | Of course, there's always the sf.net vitality rating system, and I think freshmeat.net has some kind of rating system as well. |
| 20:54.36 | jasonb | sf.net's isn't useful if the project is hosted somewhere else, other than on sf.net though. |
| 20:54.51 | jasonb | And, people don't religiously use freshmeat.net. |
| 20:56.25 | jasonb | Personally, I think tomcat is good code, but that Apache process & bylaws have hurt progress, at times. |
| 20:57.35 | jasonb | But, also I've seen it help at one or more pivotal point in the development. |
| 20:58.14 | jasonb | In all, I think Apache helped by getting Sun's backing for the project, but has hurt the project in at least as many ways. |
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| 21:12.41 | pucko | well well |
| 21:16.22 | pucko | sleepy sunday |
| 21:18.12 | jasonb | Not real sleepy. |
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| 22:02.00 | *** join/#tomcat jsisson (n=john@ppp3-147.lns1.syd7.internode.on.net) |
| 22:38.48 | Cow_woC | jasonb: you there? |
| 22:45.16 | *** join/#tomcat vinse (n=vinse@adsl-64-160-45-85.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) |
| 22:59.40 | JoshH | to use tomcat 5.0.30 with apache2, i understand i should download mod_jk.so... but when i look at the binary releases to download, i only see files like jakarta-tomcat-connectors-jk-1.2.14-linux-sles9-x86_64-worker.so... is that what i need to get? |
| 23:00.27 | JoshH | i dont have an x86_64 processor anyway, is that also for ia32? do i need to get the source and build it? |
| 23:00.55 | vinse | you dont want the 64 bit version of you're not on a 64 bit processor |
| 23:02.48 | JoshH | so is there a linux binary available of mod_jk.so for a 32 bit x86 processor, or do i need to build it from source? |
| 23:03.09 | vinse | i think you dont need mod_jk for apache 2, there's an easier alternative ... i had a note on it somewhere |
| 23:05.01 | vinse | apache 2.1? |
| 23:05.08 | JoshH | 2.0.54 |
| 23:05.22 | vinse | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:05.22 | vinse | and they are up to twice as fast compared with http mostly because |
| 23:05.22 | vinse | of constant connection pool. AJP protocol gives it's share too |
| 23:05.22 | vinse | by transferring less data across the wire. |
| 23:05.22 | vinse | If you are using Apache 2.1+ there is no need to use mod_jk and |
| 23:05.22 | vinse | maintain additional module. |
| 23:05.24 | vinse | Regards, |
| 23:05.26 | vinse | Mladen. |
| 23:05.28 | vinse | woah oops sorry for spam |
| 23:05.32 | vinse | that's from one of the devs though |
| 23:05.51 | vinse | hmm are you married to those versions? |
| 23:06.08 | JoshH | yes, i must use tomcat 5.0.30 and apache 2.0.54 |
| 23:06.17 | vinse | ok then yeah never mind me! |
| 23:06.32 | vinse | you probably have to build it i guess |
| 23:06.39 | JoshH | i dont mind using mod_jk, i just want to know if i was missing the binary somewhere, or if i had to build it. the server is debian sarge, there is a mod_jk package but it only works with apache 1 |
| 23:07.14 | vinse | cant help you on where to find it ... it's totally possible that it doesnt exist |
| 23:07.22 | JoshH | but on all the howto sites im reading they say to just download the binary, so i thought there would be one somewhere, which is why i was confused. *shrug* |
| 23:07.46 | vinse | try #apache maybe |
| 23:08.16 | JoshH | thanks for your help, ill try building it and try #apache if i have trouble |