| 00:09.33 | jkk | Spline: awake? |
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| 00:38.17 | jkk | what do people recommend for object<->xml binding? |
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| 00:55.58 | jasonb | jkk: object <--> xml binding may be a good idea for some uses, just not for all objects nor uses. |
| 00:56.35 | jkk | jasonb: yeah, i know, i'm just lazy |
| 00:56.46 | jkk | i kind of don't have to want to write xml schemas either |
| 00:57.38 | jkk | i'm beginning to wonder why i'm doing object<->xml |
| 00:57.50 | jkk | i should really just deal directly with xml |
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| 02:57.12 | sobel | why objects? seems heavyweight |
| 03:01.47 | Spline | jasonb: you around? |
| 03:01.59 | Spline | awake now, sort of in and out have company |
| 03:04.05 | Spline | OK company left |
| 03:04.19 | Spline | jkk: i was actually sleeping too, had a nice little nap |
| 03:07.29 | jkk | Spline: hehe |
| 03:07.49 | jkk | Spline: i think i've solved my object<->xml dilemma :) |
| 03:07.59 | Spline | I'm using betwixt, happily |
| 03:08.02 | Spline | you? |
| 03:08.06 | Spline | did you just ditch the objects? |
| 03:08.12 | jkk | Spline: yup :) |
| 03:08.14 | jkk | no more dilemma |
| 03:08.26 | Spline | they just data classes for shipping information around? |
| 03:08.38 | jkk | Spline: yeah, pretty much |
| 03:08.41 | Spline | cool |
| 03:08.45 | Spline | well in that case I'd use a schema |
| 03:08.45 | jkk | Spline: they contain some validation logic |
| 03:08.48 | Spline | yea |
| 03:08.55 | Spline | schematron or relax ng |
| 03:09.21 | Spline | I enjoy the benefits of strong typing :) |
| 03:09.31 | jkk | Spline: so do I eg User user = DocumentFactory.newDocument(User.DocType); user.setName(...); user.setEmail(...); |
| 03:09.49 | Spline | eh? |
| 03:09.56 | Spline | I haven't seen that work before |
| 03:10.02 | Spline | what does the compiler think a User is? |
| 03:10.13 | jkk | Spline: User is a class, hehe |
| 03:10.18 | jkk | extends AbstractDocument |
| 03:10.28 | Spline | oh ok |
| 03:10.31 | Spline | yea that works |
| 03:10.42 | Spline | kinda cool |
| 03:11.43 | jkk | Spline: the only question now is what XML library to use |
| 03:11.53 | jkk | do i go with the tried and true dom4j? |
| 03:12.02 | jkk | or do i try the mean and lean kDom? |
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| 03:13.47 | Spline | go for broke and try xpp :) |
| 03:13.55 | jkk | xpp? |
| 03:13.59 | Spline | xpp3 |
| 03:14.01 | Spline | a pull parser! |
| 03:14.18 | Spline | all the fun of SAX, no events |
| 03:14.34 | jkk | Spline: yes, but i think i want to preserve the entire xml document in memory |
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| 03:15.11 | Spline | OK, DOM it is |
| 03:15.32 | Spline | haven't used dom4j or kDom, so no recommendation there :) |
| 03:15.56 | jkk | i could stick with plain old jaxp |
| 03:17.54 | Spline | how boring! |
| 03:18.00 | Spline | then what would you talk to the grandkids about? |
| 03:18.20 | jkk | hehe |
| 03:18.48 | Spline | "Back in 03, we had MANY different parsers to use. And they all had vastly different APIs!" |
| 03:18.51 | Spline | ooooooooooooooooooooo |
| 03:19.27 | jkk | yeah, it kinda pisses me off having to choose between JDOM, dom4j, kDOM, JAXP, NanoXML, ElectricXML, XmlLite |
| 03:19.40 | Spline | xpp3, sax |
| 03:19.49 | Spline | and other variants of those |
| 03:19.57 | Spline | thats where the real excitement happens :) |
| 03:20.09 | Spline | Oh, don't forget MimML |
| 03:20.11 | Spline | MinML |
| 03:20.20 | jkk | argh |
| 03:20.29 | jkk | i think i might just go with jaxp |
| 03:20.48 | Spline | JDOM was way nicer for me than JAXP |
| 03:20.57 | Spline | I will try dom4j thoughj |
| 03:21.21 | jkk | dom4j is much nicer than jdom |
| 03:21.31 | jkk | faster, more functionality, easier to use |
| 03:21.50 | jkk | i'm surprised jakarta hasn't come out with commons-dom yet, lol |
| 03:21.57 | Spline | watch, it will happen |
| 03:22.09 | Spline | one of these libraries will decide it wants the Apache name, and work its way in there |
| 03:22.16 | Spline | commons is the back door in to apache |
| 03:22.25 | Spline | if you want to avoid the incubator, and have the right friends |
| 03:22.42 | Spline | the XML Commons probably |
| 03:23.09 | MikeM | xerces isn't it I guess? |
| 03:26.32 | jkk | hrm |
| 03:27.13 | jkk | hmmm, i'm beginning to wonder if i should keep checking on all my little frameworks :) |
| 03:27.45 | jkk | i rilly probably shouldn't, hehe |
| 03:29.33 | Spline | "checking on"? |
| 03:29.42 | Spline | Hey, you owe me more conversation about interact |
| 03:39.41 | jkk | Spline: i'm still here |
| 03:39.51 | jkk | Spline: i don't see how you can use betwixt |
| 03:39.55 | jkk | it's just awful :/ |
| 03:43.43 | Spline | no way |
| 03:43.47 | Spline | its easy! |
| 03:43.55 | Spline | whats your gripe? |
| 03:44.17 | jkk | it's just ugly, hehe |
| 03:44.24 | jkk | all those silly config files |
| 03:44.44 | jkk | and it doesn't seem to be able to easily generate business-oriented xml |
| 03:45.32 | Spline | hmm |
| 03:45.36 | Spline | I didn't use a config file |
| 03:45.50 | Spline | I just told it to use a HyphenatedNameMapper and go |
| 03:45.50 | jkk | what kind of object<->xml do you do? |
| 03:45.54 | Spline | java beans |
| 03:46.00 | Spline | I wanted to persist them to an XMLDB |
| 03:46.03 | Spline | worked great |
| 03:46.07 | Spline | roundtrip |
| 03:46.16 | jkk | but are you generating xml docs some sort of standard or is any serialization good? |
| 03:46.35 | Spline | I don't understand |
| 03:46.37 | Spline | standard? |
| 03:46.38 | jkk | see, i have spec, otherwise i'd just throw XmlEncoder at it |
| 03:46.50 | Spline | well no objects are getting serialized |
| 03:46.50 | jkk | i'm exchanging like business documents |
| 03:47.17 | Spline | it uses Bean introspection to figure out how to serialize my classes |
| 03:47.22 | Spline | and the default was good for my simple beans |
| 03:47.33 | Spline | I could hand you the docs it outputs and you could use them in perl |
| 03:47.52 | jkk | yeah i know, but i've got to follow a strictly defined spec |
| 03:55.50 | Spline | yea |
| 03:55.53 | Spline | Castor is good for that, I head |
| 03:55.55 | Spline | hear |
| 04:02.59 | jkk | hmmm |
| 04:05.01 | jkk | brb |
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| 05:39.24 | jkk | Spline: there? |
| 05:40.08 | Spline | yea |
| 05:40.10 | Spline | sup |
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| 06:16.19 | jkk | Spline: hehe, yeah? |
| 06:16.32 | jkk | is there a way to recursively cvs remove entire folder hierarchies? |
| 06:18.16 | Spline | nope |
| 06:18.28 | Spline | you have to cvs remove the files then cvs update the parent folders |
| 06:18.31 | Spline | pita |
| 06:20.25 | jkk | ah |
| 06:22.11 | jkk | Spline: how does cocoon match up requests to a javascript function? |
| 06:28.59 | Spline | <map:flow src="myfile.src"/> |
| 06:29.44 | Spline | <map:call i lied |
| 06:29.49 | Spline | here one sec |
| 06:29.57 | Spline | <map:flow language="javascript"> |
| 06:29.57 | Spline | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:29.57 | Spline | </map:flow> |
| 06:30.10 | Spline | ... |
| 06:30.11 | Spline | <map:match pattern="AddOrganization"> |
| 06:30.12 | Spline | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:30.12 | Spline | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:30.14 | Spline | ... |
| 06:30.58 | jkk | j,, |
| 06:31.03 | jkk | hmm |
| 06:31.04 | jkk | interesting |
| 06:31.09 | jkk | what does that pattern do? |
| 06:31.24 | jkk | does it become /servlet-context-url/AddOrganization? |
| 06:31.32 | Spline | well it would |
| 06:31.49 | Spline | but that sitemap is actually mounted on /myapp |
| 06:31.59 | Spline | so its /context/myapp/AddOrganization |
| 06:32.22 | jkk | ahhh, nice! |
| 06:32.26 | jkk | you get very clean URLs |
| 06:32.30 | Spline | yes |
| 06:32.38 | Spline | tim berners lee would be pround |
| 06:32.44 | Spline | wow I invented a word |
| 06:32.46 | Spline | pround |
| 06:32.52 | jkk | i have a HierarchicalDispatcher in interact that does the same thing |
| 06:33.03 | Spline | but for whatever service? |
| 06:33.13 | jkk | eg /weblog, /weblog/users, /weblog/users/Spline |
| 06:33.18 | jkk | for whatever service? |
| 06:33.23 | Spline | I mean |
| 06:33.34 | Spline | is the dispatcher tied to the web part of it? |
| 06:33.49 | Spline | for instance, there is no URL in an XML-RPC request |
| 06:33.57 | Spline | an entire XML-RPC server runs on one URL |
| 06:34.29 | jkk | public interace Dispatcher { public boolean dispatch(RequestContext reqCtx) throws ServiceException } |
| 06:34.33 | jkk | that's all the dispatcher is |
| 06:34.45 | jkk | the HierarchicalDispatcher is for working RESTful webservices |
| 06:35.11 | jkk | like if you want to do POST /weblog/users (to create a new user) or GET /weblog/users/Spline to get an individual user |
| 06:37.07 | jkk | but anyways i'm kind of curious about cocoon |
| 06:38.02 | jkk | one nice thing, it seems if you put all your top-level request processing in javascript then your services are completely protocol agnostic |
| 06:38.04 | jkk | which is nice |
| 06:39.54 | Spline | i am not sold on REST being so much better than RPC |
| 06:40.06 | Spline | just that message oriented services are useful for different things than RPC |
| 06:40.09 | jkk | well hopefully i can sell you :) |
| 06:40.28 | jkk | REST, IMO, is the best way to do distributed computing |
| 06:40.50 | jkk | better than generic messaging (JMS, SOAP) and much better than RPC |
| 06:41.12 | jkk | it's not just about moving data over the wire. much of the power of REST comes from assigning URIs to your business objects |
| 06:41.33 | Spline | thats fine |
| 06:41.41 | Spline | there is still a place in the world for well defined RPC services |
| 06:41.44 | jkk | eg, something nifty I just did |
| 06:42.00 | Spline | for synchronous calls |
| 06:42.16 | jkk | XSLT(http://example.com/factory/orders?incoming=true, orders2rss.xslt) |
| 06:42.36 | jkk | RPC is fine for small networks, but when you're dealing with the public internet |
| 06:42.45 | jkk | REST is the way to go |
| 06:44.19 | jkk | other neat things, imagine google searching your business data |
| 06:46.02 | Spline | ye I am thinking RPC for stuff like biometric building access systems, point of sale devices, etc |
| 06:47.15 | jkk | yes, that can work |
| 06:47.23 | jkk | i've seen RPC work quite well on a small scale |
| 06:47.29 | jkk | eg, distributed banner advertising |
| 06:47.47 | jkk | but RPC is very dangerous when your scale increases |
| 06:48.12 | jkk | and suddenly, if the RPC contract changes in any way then all of the clients on the net are screwed |
| 06:48.26 | jkk | that's why RPC (and RMI) tends to work internally when you basically control all the clients |
| 06:48.43 | Spline | exactly |
| 06:48.57 | Spline | OK so at least you're intelligent about it |
| 06:49.16 | Spline | had a guy solve every problem using asynchronous messaging and REST |
| 06:49.27 | Spline | at least, on paper :) |
| 06:49.38 | jkk | hehe |
| 06:49.52 | jkk | i solve every problem using REST too :) |
| 06:49.59 | jkk | but i do recognize RPC has its place |
| 06:50.09 | jkk | especially when you have a deadline and need something working right now |
| 06:54.22 | Spline | basically my thinking is say I have a little embedded system that sits in the parking lot for swiping access cards so people can pull in |
| 06:54.33 | Spline | it runs a C program, or MAYBE J2ME |
| 06:55.13 | Spline | most flexible solution in that case is a little XML-RPC stack on the embedded system and an RPC server inside the building |
| 06:55.24 | jkk | yeah that makes sense |
| 06:55.42 | jkk | or even RMI, which might be faster than XML-RPC though you'll be limited to java |
| 06:55.54 | Spline | yea, and thats a toss up |
| 06:55.59 | Spline | depends on your embedded programmer really |
| 06:56.13 | Spline | since the bulk of the work will be the hardware access and ruggedization |
| 06:56.17 | Spline | (is that a word?) |
| 06:58.35 | jkk | (think so) |
| 07:00.31 | jkk | anyways i'm still kind of curious about the setup you've got going |
| 07:00.43 | jkk | it sounds very cool |
| 07:00.46 | jkk | but scary |
| 07:01.53 | jkk | btw you never said which xmldb you were using, exist or xindice? |
| 07:01.58 | Spline | xindice |
| 07:02.25 | Spline | I *think* the lack of transactions is biting me |
| 07:02.33 | jkk | how so? |
| 07:02.44 | Spline | if I insert a document and try to pull it out immediately (something liek 30ms) its like half there |
| 07:02.49 | jkk | xindice isn't transactional? i thought it was a complete XMLDB |
| 07:02.54 | Spline | some child nodes are missing or empty |
| 07:03.00 | jkk | hmmm, wierd |
| 07:03.01 | Spline | yea, no transactions in XMLDB |
| 07:03.09 | jkk | oh really? |
| 07:03.15 | Spline | yea, not even implicit |
| 07:03.22 | jkk | ah yes, that's right. exist has the same problem |
| 07:03.31 | Spline | its on the Xindice to do list |
| 07:03.39 | Spline | and berkeley xmldb has it supposedly |
| 07:03.55 | jkk | though i believe exist has an option that you can turn on to make it do a FileDescriptor.sync() on each insert/update |
| 07:05.02 | Spline | I dont mind shipping you the code if you want |
| 07:05.14 | Spline | of course, you'll have to hold your nose and use maven to build it |
| 07:05.27 | jkk | Spline: what code? your app? |
| 07:05.33 | jkk | i might take a look at it later |
| 07:05.36 | Spline | yea i just threw it together last week |
| 07:05.43 | jkk | i'm curious about the interaction of avalon and your business logic |
| 07:05.50 | Spline | there isnt much |
| 07:05.57 | Spline | avalon is really just a nice way to organize things |
| 07:06.10 | Spline | initialize() happens at a defined time, parameterize() happens before that, etc |
| 07:06.12 | jkk | yes, that's what i think most containers are |
| 07:06.27 | jkk | you are taking advantage of the Avalon lifecycle interfaces? |
| 07:06.29 | Spline | yea |
| 07:06.36 | jkk | how? |
| 07:06.48 | Spline | ...implements Parameterizable |
| 07:06.58 | jkk | i'm considering adding a LifecycleInterceptor to interact but trying to resist the urge |
| 07:06.59 | Spline | public void parameterize(Parameters params) {} |
| 07:07.15 | Spline | thats really all there is to it |
| 07:07.20 | jkk | heh, i mean why do you find yourself using the lifecycle interfaces |
| 07:07.34 | Spline | I had to get an XMLDB URI into the component somehow |
| 07:07.52 | Spline | and I had to create my database connection somewhere |
| 07:08.03 | Spline | parameterize and initialize, in that order |
| 07:08.48 | jkk | ahh, interesting, so it's primarily a configuration thing |
| 07:08.53 | Spline | for me, now |
| 07:09.05 | Spline | the next step is two compoments sharing a xindice connection pool |
| 07:09.11 | Spline | i will then use Serviceable |
| 07:09.23 | jkk | so you can lookup the pool? |
| 07:09.27 | Spline | yea |
| 07:09.42 | jkk | cool |
| 07:09.52 | jkk | i suppose i really will have to investigate cocoon more |
| 07:09.58 | Spline | thats all avalon |
| 07:10.12 | jkk | yeah i know, but they're a package deal |
| 07:10.19 | Spline | yea cocoon comes with ECM |
| 07:10.24 | Spline | which is really a rudimentary container |
| 07:10.27 | jkk | ECM? |
| 07:10.34 | Spline | but they are moving to using a parent component manager |
| 07:10.38 | Spline | Excalibur Component Manager |
| 07:10.46 | jkk | parent component manager? |
| 07:10.52 | Spline | I am either going to use plexus or Loom |
| 07:10.59 | jkk | cocoon seems to have a nice community though it is apache |
| 07:11.06 | Spline | yea, so cocoon itself will be a service inside the container |
| 07:11.12 | jkk | what is plexus, loom? alternative avalon containers? |
| 07:11.15 | Spline | yes |
| 07:11.31 | jkk | wuat are their benefits? |
| 07:11.34 | Spline | loom is the phoenix guys new container |
| 07:12.00 | Spline | well for isntance with loom you declare your component's dependencies (ROLEs you will look up in service()) when you deploy it |
| 07:12.25 | Spline | nicer deployment also |
| 07:12.37 | Spline | only reason I am interested in plexus is that I know the lead developer |
| 07:13.19 | Spline | ECM is really just a component manager, not a full blown container |
| 07:13.47 | jkk | ahh |
| 07:13.47 | Spline | the deployment is really done by cocoon in that case. You declare components and roles in cocoon.xconf and cocoon tells ECM about them |
| 07:13.54 | jkk | does loom fulfill your dependencies for you? |
| 07:14.03 | Spline | i dont think it does now |
| 07:14.13 | Spline | not like maven does at compile time anyway |
| 07:14.22 | Spline | i.e. downloading from a well known repository |
| 07:14.39 | jkk | yeah |
| 07:14.45 | Spline | besides, the sysadmin should be fulfilling dependencies |
| 07:15.00 | jkk | i mean, like will it pass references to the components your component depends on |
| 07:15.03 | Spline | thats the idea behind SoC |
| 07:15.08 | Spline | yea |
| 07:15.26 | jkk | ahh that's interesting |
| 07:15.28 | Spline | your component wants a org.jkk.app.DataManager and thecontainer gives it one |
| 07:15.43 | Spline | you tell the container how to decide what implementation to hand the component |
| 07:15.50 | jkk | i haven't found a solution to the "lookup problem" though |
| 07:15.56 | Spline | in that second sentence, "you" is the sysadmin |
| 07:15.59 | jkk | Spline: what if there's more than one DataManager in the container? |
| 07:16.16 | Spline | thats one of the features of the more heavyweeigt containers |
| 07:16.20 | Spline | and I haven't played with that part yet |
| 07:16.44 | jkk | ahh |
| 07:16.50 | Spline | you can supposedly give it nontrivial rules about how to decide that |
| 07:16.54 | jkk | it's interesting to see so many people trying to solve the same problem |
| 07:17.01 | Spline | thats OSS :) |
| 07:17.04 | jkk | spring, struts, xwork, pico, and now the cocoon people |
| 07:17.14 | Spline | thats all avalon, again :) |
| 07:17.24 | jkk | well it's interesting because personally, i don't think the lookup problem is really solvable |
| 07:17.28 | Spline | cocoon is really a different set of people now |
| 07:17.28 | Spline | started out the same people |
| 07:17.35 | jkk | nor do i believe that it should be solved |
| 07:17.37 | Spline | i need to check out spring |
| 07:17.59 | jkk | spring isn't that interesting. it's a more fulfilled struts but still pretty messy |
| 07:18.02 | jkk | tons of Form classes etc |
| 07:18.04 | Spline | jkk: even if it can't be solved (which I may need some education on what the lookup problem is) it may be made more tratable |
| 07:18.15 | Spline | tractable |
| 07:18.27 | jkk | the lookup problem is satisfying the dependencies of a component at runtime using only metadata |
| 07:18.35 | Spline | ah yes |
| 07:18.50 | jkk | i actually don't believe it's a problem |
| 07:18.57 | Spline | well I think its not a good idea to try and eliminate the role of the sysadmin/deployer |
| 07:19.25 | Spline | one guy might want a XindiceDataManager, another might want a CMP2DataManager |
| 07:19.47 | jkk | i believe a component should actively ask the container for its dependencies. and there are situations (like deserialization) where it's very important that the component have complete control over what other components it references to do its job |
| 07:19.56 | jkk | yes, that's another good point |
| 07:20.38 | Spline | well I went out and bought the Component Oriented Programming book |
| 07:20.43 | Spline | I think I need to read it one of these days :) |
| 07:20.47 | Spline | for the theory |
| 07:20.53 | jkk | what book is that? |
| 07:21.18 | Spline | Szyperski |
| 07:21.32 | Spline | Component Software: Beyond Object Oriented Programming 2nd edition |
| 07:21.35 | Spline | just got it off the shelf |
| 07:22.16 | Spline | Because atm I am totally enchanted with IoC and SoC and can't see a component "taking control" |
| 07:22.19 | jkk | hmm interesting, never heard of it |
| 07:22.28 | Spline | was recommended by the plexus developer |
| 07:22.30 | Spline | jason van zyl |
| 07:22.33 | jkk | yes, lots of people are enchanted by IoC |
| 07:22.35 | jkk | what is SoC? |
| 07:22.41 | Spline | separation of concerns |
| 07:22.48 | Spline | old concept |
| 07:23.04 | Spline | but core to avalon |
| 07:23.06 | jkk | ah yes |
| 07:24.27 | jkk | Spline: so are you using the xml pipeline of cocoon? |
| 07:24.28 | Spline | I definitely wouldn't want my XindiceDataManager telling the parent CM what component it wants *specifically* |
| 07:24.34 | Spline | yea you can't use cocoon without it |
| 07:24.52 | jkk | Spline: why wouldn't you want the XindiceDataManager to do that? |
| 07:25.20 | Spline | because part of the benefit of IoC is that I can swap in XindiceConnectionPool implementations |
| 07:25.26 | Spline | on the deployment side |
| 07:25.57 | jkk | hmmm, so you're worried that the XindinceDataManager wouldn't find the correct connection pool? |
| 07:26.12 | Spline | no, I am worried that it knows too much about what its asking for |
| 07:26.22 | Spline | it should just say "Give me a XindiceConnectionPool" |
| 07:26.27 | Spline | the CM resolves that to a particular component |
| 07:26.44 | jkk | yes that is how it should work |
| 07:26.45 | Spline | explain? |
| 07:27.05 | jkk | public interface DocumentDriven { public void setDocument(Document doc) } |
| 07:27.16 | Spline | thats IoC alright :) |
| 07:27.28 | jkk | Dom4jInterceptor parses the incoming request into a Dom4j Document and passes it to the DocumentDriven at the end of the invocation chain |
| 07:27.44 | Spline | whoa cool |
| 07:28.00 | jkk | yeah, it's nifty |
| 07:28.03 | Spline | so you are the guy implementing REST as a framework instead of a design pattern |
| 07:28.12 | jkk | i'm finding the interceptor pattern very powerful |
| 07:28.24 | jkk | Spline: yup. |
| 07:28.38 | jkk | REST will be central to the webapp module of interact |
| 07:28.38 | Spline | I have to say you are winning me over |
| 07:28.52 | Spline | I will need something to play with to get a real concrete feel |
| 07:29.11 | jkk | that's funny, because i'm much more interested in cocoon after speaking with you |
| 07:29.21 | Spline | your stuff seems like a nice action layer for an MVC app |
| 07:29.36 | Spline | I am thinking of having my flowscript simply delegate to interact |
| 07:29.39 | jkk | Spline: yeah, it can be very abstract. i'm going to implement the wafer:weblog app both as a RESTful webservice and as a traditional webapp |
| 07:31.13 | jkk | Spline: yes that would make a lot of sense |
| 07:32.26 | Spline | the more I play with MVC, the more I see the Controller as 2 controllers, a "flow" controller and an "action" controller |
| 07:32.39 | jkk | Spline: Yes! |
| 07:32.45 | jkk | that is exactly the point! :) |
| 07:32.59 | jkk | i've been trying to convince people of that (particularly the webwork guys) forever |
| 07:33.19 | Spline | the point |
| 07:33.25 | Spline | your point, or REST's point? |
| 07:33.52 | jkk | in fact interact was born precisely because it's impossible to implement a RESTful service with webwork where the action and the flow controller are a single entity. you can't get nice URLs like /weblog/users/Spline for example |
| 07:34.07 | jkk | part of the point of interact |
| 07:34.10 | Spline | ah ok |
| 07:34.33 | jkk | interact explicitly defines two concepts. one is a "flow" which is a sequence of actions that must be executed to achieve something |
| 07:34.44 | Spline | well I want to talk to you more about some future cocoon directions (blocks) but you should get your hands dirty first |
| 07:34.52 | jkk | and the other is a "Dispatcher" that routes requests |
| 07:35.01 | Spline | what about the continuations the flowscript does? |
| 07:35.11 | Spline | how do you indicate that a request/response cycle must happen with the user? |
| 07:35.29 | jkk | how do you mean? |
| 07:35.36 | Spline | well my addUser use case |
| 07:35.53 | Spline | "show the user the input form" "collect responses, forward them to business objects" |
| 07:36.13 | jkk | heh, i'm working on the exact same thing right now in interact |
| 07:36.41 | Spline | continuations are the main reason the cocooners picked javascript for flow |
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| 07:37.23 | Spline | of course I left out the last step "forward user here if successful or there if failed" |
| 07:38.01 | jkk | hmm, well in interact |
| 07:38.23 | jkk | for the REST interface, the user would just POST an xml document to /weblog/users |
| 07:38.39 | jkk | UserInputAction (which is DocumentDriven) takes the xml document turns it into a User document |
| 07:38.52 | jkk | CreateUserAction takes the User object and slaps it in the db |
| 07:39.05 | jkk | and OK 200 is returned by default-like |
| 07:39.55 | Spline | how does the user know what information to POST and in what format it should be POSTed? |
| 07:40.17 | jkk | the cool thing is that 1) both UserInputAction and CreateUserAction are used in other scenarios 2) the 'flow' is defined entirely in service.xml |
| 07:40.32 | jkk | Spline: well the user has the schema essentially |
| 07:40.41 | Spline | yea a webapp solves that step |
| 07:40.45 | Spline | "here, fill this out" |
| 07:40.53 | jkk | Spline: one thing that's interesting, is, are you familiar with XForms? |
| 07:40.55 | Spline | thats missing in REST or RPC |
| 07:41.01 | Spline | yea a little |
| 07:41.09 | Spline | I am going to do my next flow app using JXForms |
| 07:41.24 | jkk | well in XForms, instead of web forms posting {name,value} parameters they post XML documents |
| 07:41.29 | Spline | considering someday trying an app using XSmiles as the client |
| 07:42.19 | jkk | what is XSmiles? |
| 07:42.30 | Spline | just an XForms client |
| 07:42.47 | Spline | open source, very young |
| 07:42.53 | jkk | hmm, interesting |
| 07:42.56 | jkk | an XForms client |
| 07:43.08 | Spline | yea instead of a web browser |
| 07:43.33 | Spline | anyway, I don't have a project to try it on yet |
| 07:43.52 | jkk | it sounds like a perfect fit the RESTful weblog |
| 07:44.15 | Spline | well try it and see |
| 07:44.27 | Spline | Hey, I have to crash, getting up in 5 hours |
| 07:44.34 | Spline | stimulting conversation tonight |
| 07:44.39 | jkk | ok, nice talking to you too |
| 07:44.40 | Spline | when can I see interact? :) |
| 07:44.49 | jkk | well i can zip it over to you |
| 07:44.57 | Spline | how far from a beta are you? |
| 07:44.57 | jkk | hopefully the java.net project will be approved soon |
| 07:45.13 | jkk | you can try https://interact.dev.java.net/ |
| 07:45.23 | jkk | Spline: hmm, i'd say kinda far-ish |
| 07:45.29 | Spline | ok |
| 07:45.30 | jkk | still working out some core design decisions |
| 07:45.42 | Spline | this project in sept/oct could use this stuff I think |
| 07:45.51 | Spline | the G/L interface for OBS |
| 07:45.53 | jkk | but i'm doing example apps so it's pretty complete |
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| 07:46.29 | jkk | interesting |
| 07:46.42 | Spline | that is, if I do it |
| 07:46.45 | Spline | ah, decisions.. |
| 07:46.54 | Spline | OK ciao |
| 07:46.55 | jkk | hehe |
| 07:46.58 | jkk | well get some sleep |
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| 10:58.37 | f1re | is there any way to put a config string value somewhere (web.xml?) that all my jsp pages can see? |
| 11:00.15 | *** join/#tomcat IRCMonkey_ (~chatzilla@pa178.rumia.sdi.tpnet.pl) |
| 11:01.14 | IRCMonkey_ | HI |
| 11:01.40 | IRCMonkey_ | Can any one help me with ResourceBundle in JSP?? |
| 11:10.37 | *** join/#tomcat TimP_ (~chatzilla@pc4-oxfd1-6-cust2.oxfd.cable.ntl.com) |
| 11:46.50 | TimP_ | Hi, I have been playing with Tomcat for the first time, should have played with it ages ago, sorry. |
| 11:47.14 | TimP_ | It is really nice, I love the docs and am very impressed. |
| 11:47.38 | TimP_ | I tried to build from a source distribution but things did not go very well. |
| 11:48.01 | TimP_ | The binary installed and worked out of the box. |
| 11:48.57 | TimP_ | Anyway, what I am trying to do is write JSP that extends a different servlet using the extends keyword, which works fine. |
| 11:50.21 | TimP_ | My problem is that I want the extended servlet to extend org.apache.jasper.runtime.HttpJsBase but that is final; what is teh proper way to do this? |
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| 12:24.38 | TimP_ | anyone in? |
| 12:49.06 | TimP_ | Bohoo where is everyone? |
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| 13:11.57 | D`Artagnan | hello guys |
| 13:12.14 | D`Artagnan | any 1 could tell me how do I deny directory listing ? |
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| 13:57.05 | hellabot | "reefer" pasted "compiler output" at http://www.hellaweb.com/hellabot/1 |
| 13:59.22 | TheSteveMonkey | does anyone know if tomcat treats parameterized pages as new compiles e.g. http://mysite.com/index.jsp?hello is http://mysite.com/index.jsp?goodbye a new compile?? |
| 14:00.21 | MikeM | nope.... |
| 14:00.33 | MikeM | same executable, just different parameters to it... |
| 14:00.51 | TheSteveMonkey | even if the content of the page changes |
| 14:01.26 | TheSteveMonkey | MikeM, just try to get the bottom of why tomcat is chewing memory on a site I am partly responsible for |
| 14:10.31 | TimP_ | Why is the service method of org.apache.jasper.runtime.HttpJspBase final? |
| 14:10.59 | TimP_ | I want to write my own and use the extends attribute |
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| 15:09.58 | Renfield | Hello. |
| 15:17.07 | Renfield | I'm having quite a hard time configuring jk2 with apache and tomcat under W2k. |
| 15:17.54 | Renfield | At this point it complains that "JkWorkersFile" isn't an apache directive. I've loaded the jk module into apache just fine. |
| 15:19.28 | Renfield | Of course I'm running jk 2.0.43, but I've got apache 2.0.47. I couldn't find a jk 2.0.47 version. |
| 15:43.17 | *** join/#tomcat |INNO| (~inno@cig-ktnr1-fw01.cowaninsurancegroup.com) |
| 15:43.28 | |INNO| | Hello all |
| 15:43.51 | |INNO| | Does anyone have a prm spec file for tomcat 4.1.27 ? |
| 15:43.59 | |INNO| | or seen a rpm src for it ? |
| 15:44.33 | |INNO| | I a, running redhat 8 and 9 |
| 15:44.42 | |INNO| | a,=am |
| 15:52.37 | |INNO| | rpm not a prm |
| 15:52.59 | |INNO| | I cant seem to find an rom for 4.1.27.. Has anyone seen one or created one |
| 15:53.10 | |INNO| | All I really need is the spec file |
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| 17:13.19 | *** join/#tomcat |INNO| (~inno@cig-ktnr1-fw01.cowaninsurancegroup.com) |
| 17:15.45 | |INNO| | Anyone have a rpm spec file for tomcat 4.1.27? |
| 17:16.06 | |INNO| | There does not seem to be an rpm for 4.1.27 on the apache site |
| 17:16.11 | |INNO| | has anyone built one |
| 17:20.11 | tang^ | I haven't. I prefer to hand build my system, though |
| 17:20.40 | tang^ | my last attempt using an RPM was odd since the system setup didn't match any documentation |
| 17:22.57 | |INNO| | do you have a script to do it by hand |
| 17:23.11 | *** join/#tomcat duzzer (~duzzer@62.141.79.74) |
| 17:23.28 | |INNO| | is there a step by step guilde to compiling 4.1.27 |
| 17:24.33 | tang^ | ships with the source... but generally 'ant' is all you need |
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| 17:38.53 | *** join/#tomcat |INNO| (~inno@cig-ktnr1-fw01.cowaninsurancegroup.com) |
| 17:42.58 | MikeM | why would you need an RPM? just get a binary..... |
| 17:43.12 | MikeM | its java for crying out loud... |
| 17:43.15 | |INNO| | so i can uninstall as well |
| 17:44.18 | *** join/#tomcat a4akb (akb@as5-162.qualitynet.net) |
| 17:44.27 | MikeM | umm.... rm -rf works fine.... |
| 17:44.49 | kylev | |INNO|: are there SRPMs for older versions? |
| 17:45.07 | kylev | because you should be able to easily adapt the .spec to point to a 4.1.27 tarball... |
| 17:45.21 | a4akb | kylev! |
| 17:45.31 | a4akb | u alive?? yayyyy :))) |
| 17:45.35 | MikeM | everything that tomcat needs is inside its binary distro directory. The only thing that would exist outside is the /etc/init.d script for starting/stopping it.... |
| 17:45.42 | |INNO| | ya |
| 17:45.44 | a4akb | last time i saw u u were idle for some 50hrs |
| 17:45.54 | MikeM | dunno.... |
| 17:45.55 | |INNO| | jusat wondering if there was any major diff between |
| 17:46.03 | |INNO| | 4.1.264 and 4.1.27 |
| 17:46.03 | kylev | I have an always-on IRC client. try not to be amazed. |
| 17:46.16 | kylev | |INNO|: nope. just bugfixes. |
| 17:46.20 | |INNO| | k |
| 17:46.23 | |INNO| | thanks |
| 17:46.31 | kylev | no real re-org of code or anything like that |
| 17:47.34 | a4akb | rotations per min? |
| 17:47.41 | |INNO| | have you looked at 5.x series |
| 17:47.48 | |INNO| | is it a major rework |
| 17:47.53 | |INNO| | of tomcat |
| 17:48.04 | MikeM | INNO, really, you're life would be easier without doing the PRM thing.... |
| 17:48.05 | |INNO| | some people say orionserver is better |
| 17:48.07 | kylev | indeed, hence the major revision number change |
| 17:48.28 | MikeM | kylev, then answer me this: how do you tell RPM you have something installed when you pull it from CVS? |
| 17:48.50 | kylev | MikeM: you release things you pull directly from CVS? |
| 17:49.13 | |INNO| | what is the major difference from 4.x to 5.x |
| 17:49.20 | |INNO| | is it a rewrite |
| 17:49.24 | a4akb | x |
| 17:49.27 | |INNO| | or new features |
| 17:49.30 | a4akb | .x |
| 17:49.34 | kylev | if you sell out to RPM, you gotta package your own stuff in RPMs too |
| 17:49.44 | MikeM | I've often tried installing an RPM only to find a dependency for something I can't find an RPM for. so I install it from a tarball but I still can't tell RPM that the dependency has been solved. |
| 17:50.03 | |INNO| | you can do a force |
| 17:50.11 | |INNO| | MikeM rpm --force |
| 17:50.17 | |INNO| | will force it to install |
| 17:50.18 | kylev | typically, yes --force will work |
| 17:50.19 | |INNO| | :) |
| 17:50.21 | MikeM | kylev, no, I usually end up needing features that are only available via CVS... so I don't release CVS code, I _use_ CVS code. |
| 17:50.48 | kylev | ah, well, you should learn to roll RPMs then |
| 17:50.49 | |INNO| | uninstall is nice with rom |
| 17:50.50 | MikeM | INNO, then what's the use of RPM then if I have to force everything? |
| 17:50.53 | |INNO| | and upgrade |
| 17:51.17 | |INNO| | because you can uninstall and udade and know what files are part of what package |
| 17:51.21 | MikeM | simply alias rpm to 'tar zxf foo.gz; cd foo; configure; make; make install".... |
| 17:51.23 | kylev | if you need foo-package, and there is a foo-package rpm out there, but you need the foo code from CVS, it's usually trivial to roll your own |
| 17:51.34 | |INNO| | when you do a straight install you have no ide |
| 17:51.35 | |INNO| | idea |
| 17:51.48 | |INNO| | correct |
| 17:51.55 | |INNO| | you can always make a patch |
| 17:52.01 | |INNO| | and rebuild the rpm |
| 17:52.02 | |INNO| | :) |
| 17:52.34 | kylev | the benefit I see to RPM is with large server farms |
| 17:52.37 | |INNO| | if you have alot of linux servers |
| 17:52.50 | MikeM | seems like a lot of work just so you can be slightly lazy elsewhere... |
| 17:52.53 | |INNO| | you dont want to always have to recompile everything |
| 17:52.59 | kylev | even 8 machines, it's a pain to set up tomcat on all 8 |
| 17:53.03 | MikeM | I don't |
| 17:53.10 | kylev | at least, and get things consistent |
| 17:53.17 | |INNO| | its more work at first for rpms |
| 17:53.26 | |INNO| | but long term it saves time |
| 17:54.43 | kylev | also, it's just a part of self-documentation in an ops organization |
| 17:55.04 | kylev | "How did we set up Apache/Tomcat/Foo last time?" |
| 17:55.09 | kylev | "Read the RPM script." |
| 17:55.50 | kylev | also, I can have a fully ready Tomcat farm server ready in about 12 minutes thanks to RPM and network installs |
| 17:55.53 | MikeM | I guess I'm not lucky enough to be in an ops environment.... |
| 17:56.04 | kylev | and it works perfectly, just like every other server in the farm |
| 17:56.17 | |INNO| | think he gets the point |
| 17:56.17 | |INNO| | lol |
| 17:56.19 | MikeM | If I were to do that I'd have to make RPM scripts for just about every single package I need. |
| 17:56.46 | MikeM | seriously, I don't think there are RPMs available for anything I'm currently using.... |
| 17:58.05 | |INNO| | so... |
| 17:58.13 | |INNO| | you have to make them to comile it |
| 17:58.19 | |INNO| | compile it |
| 17:58.26 | |INNO| | so why not make an rpm |
| 17:58.59 | MikeM | because I would have to make an RPM for _everything_. Why do that when 'configure;make;make install' works just fine.... |
| 17:59.17 | kylev | well, that's where the choice lies |
| 17:59.38 | kylev | at my company, I do make an RPM for everything. Literally. |
| 17:59.59 | kylev | but, with 3 ops guys, we never have problems with communication or inconsistency |
| 18:00.08 | kylev | even when we had 5 ops guys |
| 18:00.43 | MikeM | in your case I could see where that might help....but I'm in R&D. Its just me. Only me. |
| 18:00.47 | kylev | also, the baseline RPM is little more than configure;make;make install inside a file named .spec |
| 18:01.17 | kylev | well, R&D is a totally different world ;) |
| 18:01.32 | kylev | but you might consider rolling RPMs when you release things into the "real world" |
| 18:01.49 | MikeM | we don't release things.... we give our raw code to the engineers who do that.... |
| 18:02.00 | kylev | you've spent so much time getting something set up/compiled right, it'd be nice to have it work right and be reproducible |
| 18:02.12 | MikeM | we do that to ensure that R&D code doesn't make it into 'the wild' |
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| 19:37.14 | *** topic/#tomcat is Tomcat Servlet Container http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat || Paste your code and configs here://www.hellaweb.com/hellabot/ |
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| 19:59.26 | sobel | is this a bad place to look for work? :) |
| 20:00.15 | sobel | i got laid off right after quadrupling the company's load capacity via apache/tomcat upgrades and setting up mod_jk load balancing |
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| 20:06.50 | abrotman | is there some way to get around what appears to be a glob problem with exec? |
| 20:07.29 | abrotman | Process cp = Runtime.getRuntime().exec("ls /dir/*.ext -t | head -n 5"); |
| 20:07.35 | abrotman | returns zilch |
| 20:08.05 | abrotman | however |
| 20:08.14 | abrotman | Process cp = Runtime.getRuntime().exec("ls /dir/ -t | head -n 5"); |
| 20:08.23 | abrotman | returns like it should |
| 20:21.42 | jasonb | Hmm, well, run that command in a shell. I'm not sure how it runs if you don't specify what shell it should run in.. (plus, it's been quite a while since I tried this stuff, so I could be wrong about that). |
| 20:24.58 | abrotman | how do i specify a shell? |
| 20:26.00 | jasonb | "/bin/sh ls /dir/*.ext -t | head -n 5" |
| 20:26.14 | jasonb | err.. |
| 20:26.19 | jasonb | "/bin/sh 'ls /dir/*.ext -t | head -n 5'" |
| 20:26.42 | abrotman | oh .. that makes me feel dumb .. |
| 20:26.47 | jasonb | You should probably try that second one first, and if it doesn't work you can try the first one.. |
| 20:26.49 | abrotman | i was ready to pass env vars :) |
| 20:27.05 | jasonb | I'm not sure the above will work, but you can try it. |
| 20:27.44 | abrotman | doesnt' seem to work :( |
| 20:28.02 | abrotman | let me rephrase .. it doesn't |
| 20:28.31 | jasonb | heh. |
| 20:28.38 | jasonb | It was worth a shot. |
| 20:28.57 | abrotman | wow .. dont try backticks at the prompt like that |
| 20:34.07 | abrotman | what does the traceInstructions do? |
| 20:34.33 | abrotman | ok .. now where does it go :) |
| 20:41.29 | abrotman | this really shouldn't be this hard |
| 20:52.46 | jasonb | Yeah, running shell commands from Java has always been quite quirky and troublesome. |
| 21:02.19 | jkk | Spline: heya |
| 21:03.07 | Spline | hi |
| 21:03.16 | abrotman | well .. tomorrow is another day |
| 21:03.17 | Spline | my java.net id: rhoegg |
| 21:03.23 | Spline | I need permission to view your project |
| 21:04.57 | jkk | Spline: hmm,i'll see what i can do |
| 21:05.10 | jkk | Spline: the project hasn't been approved yet but perhaps i can explicitly grant you permission |
| 21:07.03 | Spline | ill need the URL again |
| 21:07.07 | Spline | mozilla's history is a pain |
| 21:07.17 | jkk | Spline: it seems i can invite you but that just sends an email |
| 21:07.25 | jkk | https://interact.dev.java.net |
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| 22:28.43 | *** join/#tomcat teddy21 (~haha@dialin-145-254-249-218.arcor-ip.net) |
| 22:28.52 | teddy21 | hallo |
| 22:29.02 | teddy21 | hab probleme mit jk connecto für apache |
| 22:29.07 | teddy21 | wer kann helfen? |
| 22:36.21 | *** join/#tomcat teddy21 (~haha@dialin-145-254-249-218.arcor-ip.net) |
| 22:36.43 | teddy21 | HALLO! |
| 22:37.03 | teddy21 | anybody here? |
| 22:37.23 | teddy21 | i have a problem with apache and tomcat connection |
| 22:37.26 | teddy21 | i use jk |
| 22:37.34 | teddy21 | can anybody help? |
| 22:38.07 | schlumpf | what's your problem? |
| 22:38.11 | teddy21 | tomcat runs under domain:8080/examples but not without 8080 |
| 22:38.18 | schlumpf | is logisch |
| 22:38.26 | teddy21 | warum? |
| 22:38.38 | schlumpf | der verkloppen uns für's deutsch, aber egal |
| 22:38.49 | teddy21 | heh |
| 22:38.50 | teddy21 | e |
| 22:38.50 | schlumpf | wie hast du bisher den tomcat an den apache angebunden? |
| 22:39.02 | teddy21 | ich benutze mod_jk |
| 22:39.10 | schlumpf | was hast du alles eingestellt? |
| 22:39.20 | teddy21 | arbeite unter linux |
| 22:39.25 | schlumpf | welchen apache, 1.4er oder 2er |
| 22:39.45 | teddy21 | 1.3.27 |
| 22:40.10 | schlumpf | ach stimmt ja, den 1.4er gibt's gar net :) |
| 22:40.19 | schlumpf | was hast du alles in der httpd.conf hinzugefügt? |
| 22:40.58 | teddy21 | <IfModule !mod_jk.c> |
| 22:40.58 | teddy21 | LoadModule jk_module lib/apache/mod_jk.so |
| 22:40.58 | teddy21 | </IfModule> |
| 22:41.07 | schlumpf | http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/tomcat-4.1-doc/jk2/jk/quickhowto.html |
| 22:41.12 | teddy21 | AddModule mod_jk.c |
| 22:41.15 | schlumpf | probier mal die anleitung, muss weg, sorry |
| 22:41.33 | teddy21 | hab ich schon |
| 22:45.27 | *** join/#tomcat overhold (~overhold@ns198b.studby.ntnu.no) |
| 22:47.42 | *** join/#tomcat eng{bar4ka} (~bar4ka@200.217.6.2) |