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| 01:20.25 | duckies | :0 |
| 01:20.31 | duckies | arcanepariah you here? |
| 01:27.23 | duckies | god damnit, god damnit all to hell. yet another problem solved by unchecking a checkbox. D; |
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| 17:06.41 | Ashamed | Roar? |
| 17:37.39 | Ashamed | RooAOOAOAOAR |
| 17:39.13 | temhawk | ffs, why can't we pass record variables in parameters? |
| 17:42.28 | temhawk | now I'm having to store all the variables in the data table and pass an ID, then recreate the record variable on the other side and set each member separately and I cannot even copy & paste this action group between triggers |
| 17:44.01 | Ashamed | Yeah I have issues converting strings to variables,etc as well... I end up storing most everything in the data table |
| 17:44.04 | temhawk | pasting other "Set Variable" actions in triggers if you declare the local variable first works, but with record variables it doesn't work!!!!!! |
| 17:47.37 | temhawk | whyyyyyyy????? |
| 17:48.35 | temhawk | why can't we pick "- Record" from the type dropdown list? |
| 17:50.21 | temhawk | WHY????? |
| 17:50.45 | temhawk | this limitation doesn't make sense |
| 17:56.43 | Ashamed | http://pastebin.com/kbBdvFQs (May be the best loop I have ever made ha) |
| 17:57.49 | Ashamed | That loops will move any enemy player at any point to another point... It keeps track of where each unit is for each player and moves them to the correct spot next. Each player can have a differnt path setup and it will still work |
| 18:08.59 | temhawk | why don't you use for-loops? |
| 18:17.41 | Ashamed | In that case I still need to keep track of the count local variables for the order and group remove. So doing a count loop works just fine.. For loop would work the same way - I would still have to count the local variables though |
| 18:18.07 | Ashamed | I would replace it with a for loop If I didnt have to count the variables to get rid of the extra code. |
| 18:27.35 | temhawk | the for loop let's you specify a variable to keep track of it |
| 18:27.45 | Ashamed | oh it does |
| 18:27.50 | Ashamed | I did not know this ha |
| 18:28.21 | Ashamed | I will check it out.. Thanks for the input temhawk.. Its funny how there is a million ways to do the same thing with code >< |
| 18:28.43 | temhawk | np :) |
| 18:29.15 | Ashamed | I am guessing codewise - It is just about the same load, perhaps a bit better to go with for loop though |
| 18:29.17 | temhawk | the "Pick Each Integer" loop is the one you were thinking of |
| 18:29.35 | Ashamed | aww and then use picked integer for the count |
| 18:29.38 | Ashamed | yeah that makes sense |
| 18:30.03 | temhawk | yeah, but you can't nest that |
| 18:31.15 | Ashamed | That trigger works a bit too well >< |
| 18:31.49 | Ashamed | I am trying to make everything on map dynamic |
| 18:32.14 | Ashamed | So I can add an editor type system - Let users create their own dynamic game play |
| 18:32.23 | temhawk | that's cool |
| 18:33.23 | Ashamed | So far waves are now dynamic - You can add difficulty (each difficulty not only makes prev units stronger, it adds another aspect into the waves.. ) Easy = all ground organic units Med = add flying units on top of that,etc.... |
| 18:33.54 | Ashamed | The movement is now 100% dynamic as well... So any player can set his path to any number of combos does not matter |
| 18:34.05 | Ashamed | if they want the units to go back and forth from p1 p2 - They can |
| 18:34.20 | temhawk | but isn't that cheating? |
| 18:34.41 | Ashamed | I am going to make it so you can create new difficulties,etc and let others play it |
| 18:35.04 | Ashamed | There will be a standard the game gives you easy/med/hard/extreme or w/e |
| 18:35.27 | Ashamed | but then you can edit it (It will then go to a custom area though ) |
| 18:36.08 | Ashamed | I am going to make it so each game play doesn't necessarily depend on the current game.. You can for instance all do the same thing, but you don't have too. |
| 18:51.41 | ArcanePariah | temhawk: The reasons records can not be passed is Galaxy is pass-by-value |
| 18:52.20 | ArcanePariah | Combined with dynamic memory allocation is not permitted, and finally, the thing you could use to pass records is not supported in GUI |
| 18:52.28 | ArcanePariah | You can do it in raw Galaxy however |
| 18:52.32 | ArcanePariah | Using StructRefs |
| 18:53.09 | ArcanePariah | However, in general, due to the nature of game coding, you rarely will need or want this. |
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| 19:32.58 | temhawk | I didn't understand that |
| 19:36.32 | temhawk | how is passing a variable dynamic memory allocation? the variable already exists, all it would do is pass the variable from one function to another like we can already do with literally every data type. how would that be any more memory or performance straining than me manually creating a new record variable in the receiving function and setting all of its members to values from parameters? |
| 19:37.20 | temhawk | don't know what you mean by "not supported in GUI". the GUI is already all there. it's literally the same as when you choose a record type for a variable |
| 19:38.29 | temhawk | and even if somehow there wasn't support for it in the GUI then........ write UI support for it |
| 19:40.09 | temhawk | and again, I have no idea what you mean by "the nature of game coding". are custom data types not good for game coding??? of course not... |
| 19:42.31 | temhawk | and if it works in custom script |
| 19:42.43 | temhawk | THEN WHY IS THERE NO UI SUPPORT FOR IT?????????? |
| 19:55.34 | temhawk | apparently even Warcraft 3 had classes |
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| 21:42.13 | ArcanePariah | When you pass a variable, you don't pass the memory address, you pass the value. So the game takes the value of the variable, copies it into a new location, and that is what is used by the function. So any changes you make to the parameter have no effect anywhere else (outside of that function). |
| 21:42.13 | ArcanePariah | Galaxy does not allow dynamic memory allocation. This means I can not create an array with unknown size. Everything must be known at game start, in terms of variables. A struct is a container for storing other variables, so in order to pass it, you would need to pass each of its containing variables, or pass the record itself. However, to pass the record, means oyu need its memory location. A large number of bugs in computer pr |
| 21:42.23 | ArcanePariah | And that is simply not allowed in general in galaxy |
| 21:43.16 | ArcanePariah | The GUI was entirely meant to be safe, and only permit things that would not causes subtle bugs |
| 21:43.35 | ArcanePariah | Hence no support for ArrayRefs, StructRefs, and FunctionRefs |
| 21:43.54 | ArcanePariah | Warcraft 3 was more flexible because frankly, it was badly coded |
| 21:44.22 | ArcanePariah | And permitted more stuff. |
| 21:44.50 | temhawk | what exactly is unsafe about structrefs? |
| 21:45.40 | ArcanePariah | What happens if you try to access a variable in one, but the struct refs points to nothing? |
| 21:46.02 | ArcanePariah | It will immediately cause an error, quite possibly a crash |
| 21:46.09 | temhawk | and how unsafe is it? game hacking levels of unsafe, crashing levels of unsafe, or in-game errors/stuff not working levels of unsafe? |
| 21:46.21 | ArcanePariah | crashing and/or hacking |
| 21:46.34 | ArcanePariah | Not sure how galaxy handles null references |
| 21:46.47 | ArcanePariah | Since it systemically prevents people from coding them in the first place |
| 21:47.01 | ArcanePariah | The game may handle it correctly, but no way to tell. |
| 21:47.18 | temhawk | why can't they just sandbox it? |
| 21:47.45 | temhawk | they don't have to be true memory pointers |
| 21:48.36 | ArcanePariah | They do, that's what Unit Groups, Player Groups and a few other data types are |
| 21:48.41 | temhawk | the game could just maintain its own list of valid addresses for script objects |
| 21:49.12 | ArcanePariah | They have provided some sandboxes pointers, but they will not allow arbitrarily defined ones |
| 21:50.50 | ArcanePariah | Also, if you really really want that kind of indirection, you can build it yourself very easily. |
| 21:51.40 | temhawk | I don't get it... create variable of record X, add reference to a list. script asks for thing using reference, check if reference is in list, give it the object, else give an error |
| 21:52.05 | temhawk | how can that be unsafe? |
| 21:52.21 | temhawk | and how can I build that kind of indirection, please? |
| 21:53.10 | ArcanePariah | The issue is that the record variable either A) Is global and thus can be altered from anywhere at anytime or B) It was created in a local thread, and once that thread ends, that variable disappears |
| 21:53.11 | temhawk | I just want to be able to associate variables as one "object" and work with that object |
| 21:54.01 | ArcanePariah | The latter being the bigger issues from a code execution point of view |
| 21:54.31 | temhawk | why does it matter if a variable is global? surely this should be sandboxed as well and not an actual global variable inside SCII engine |
| 21:55.50 | ArcanePariah | Global variables means you have no way to predict what state it will be in. If trigger A runs, and then trigger B runs, and A tries to access the record, but B tries to assign it to another record variable, then things get very interesting, very fast. |
| 21:56.45 | temhawk | so? it should cause nothing more than in-game errors, you know, the red text messages at the top of the screen |
| 21:57.11 | ArcanePariah | No, it won't, what it will lead to is unpredictable execution. If it causes an error, then you are VERY lucky. |
| 21:57.29 | ArcanePariah | Because the aforementioned operations are both legitamate, and neither will causes an error |
| 21:57.42 | ArcanePariah | Its a category of bugs that are the hardest to fix |
| 21:57.57 | ArcanePariah | nothing will crash, or it might, or... you simply don't know |
| 21:59.23 | ArcanePariah | Global variables, in general, are a very bad thing. Video games use them way too much, and it is somewhat unavoidable, but we can, in design, try to avoid using them. |
| 22:01.23 | temhawk | I don't get it. I just want to be able to pack information together into a bundle and pass it around. instead of having to pass each value as a separate parameter and then creating a new local record variable and setting each member (paramA->memberA, paramB->memberB, paramC->memberC, ...) there should be a way to do this easily. if not true structs, it there could at least be some way of automating/hiding that repetitive process. syntactic |
| 22:01.23 | temhawk | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:02.59 | temhawk | it doesn't have to use actual references behind the scenes. it could just convert those steps into the actions that I'm doing now |
| 22:03.17 | temhawk | before generating the script |
| 22:17.47 | temhawk | just to get me from here to there http://i.imgur.com/WPqNz5U.png |
| 22:21.18 | temhawk | oops, fixed that little mistake http://i.imgur.com/xMZkiY9.png |
| 22:25.41 | temhawk | there just needs to be a way to link the parameter and the local variable http://i.imgur.com/S3IEwPk.png |
| 22:26.46 | ArcanePariah | Funny enough, under the hood, the editor already does that |
| 22:27.15 | ArcanePariah | Anytime you pass a parameter, it automatically makes a local and copies the parameter into the local, so you can use the parameter in the GUI |
| 22:27.25 | temhawk | but not in the way I mean... |
| 22:28.05 | temhawk | you can't set parameter values, though |
| 22:28.23 | temhawk | anyway, this would be in addition to what it already does |
| 22:28.46 | temhawk | set up with a new option in the interface |
| 22:34.59 | temhawk | like this: http://i.imgur.com/hlTE3ka.png |
| 22:36.22 | temhawk | and when you hover over "Link with variable" it shows a tooltip explaining what it does, even though it shouldn't matter to most people. they would just find it a useful feature to help keep things organized |
| 22:38.18 | temhawk | obviously the way you link them could be better. for example, you could drag and drop on on top of the other with a nice little animation. then when you select either one of them it could highlight the other just so to make it extra clear that they're linked |
| 22:39.46 | temhawk | and maybe use some other terminology than "link" if that's not clear enough |
| 22:40.22 | temhawk | the details don't matter, just that it reduces the amount of repetetive work |
| 22:41.48 | temhawk | at the moment you can't even paste actions referring to local record variables from other trigger to another properly. the parameters just get set to nothing and you have to go through each one of them and manually set it again |
| 22:43.20 | temhawk | plus, if you add new members to the record you have to go through all of the places where you pasted that and add the actions to set the new members. if you could link them there'd be no chance of errors due to forgetting to do this |
| 22:44.44 | temhawk | or if you change a member's type, etc |
| 22:45.12 | temhawk | the editor would just generate the correct actions before compiling |
| 22:47.05 | temhawk | or, y'know, just make structrefs safe and add a GUI for it |
