| 00:01.29 | Bounty | I would think it stops evolving somewhere around 30 Zolden |
| 00:01.49 | Bounty | My most drastic changes occurred in my mid twenties if I recall correctly. |
| 00:51.32 | Bounty | Is there a limit for individual files on bnet anymore? |
| 01:55.38 | DeadZergling | still was one last I looked, Bounty |
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| 12:11.50 | anarch | good morning |
| 12:15.14 | Zolden | poop mornign |
| 12:28.36 | Zolden | Goa_ it's hard to fight entropy |
| 12:29.23 | Zolden | bitches pick the simpliest strategy that allows to create kids, and stop to evolve |
| 12:29.41 | Zolden | realy hard conditions should be created to force them evolve |
| 12:30.49 | Zolden | but in the same time, we have to support weak novelties, that aren't good enough to provide alot of fitness bonus |
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| 12:49.17 | *** join/#sc2mapster anarch (anarch@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-ubaxfwxijkpzvazy) |
| 12:49.30 | anarch | damnit |
| 12:49.49 | anarch | what does the AI do exactly? like what is the objective? what is the difference from a good AI and a bad one? |
| 12:52.14 | Zolden | anarch are you asking sc2 related question or it's related to what I said? |
| 12:54.10 | anarch | asking about your setup |
| 12:54.18 | anarch | about what you said |
| 12:56.31 | Zolden | anarch in the first experiment little circles have to avoid collisions with moving obstacles |
| 12:57.05 | Zolden | some % of population, who survives longer, will reproduce |
| 12:57.08 | anarch | so you said they stop evolving. is this because they are dodging all of the circles anyway so they become good enough? or are they failing to figure out how to dodge them? |
| 12:58.00 | Zolden | they avoid collisions by moving in opposite direction (obstacles move top -> down) |
| 12:58.20 | Zolden | they just sense an obstacle and move down |
| 12:58.32 | Zolden | but there's a border, and they can die touching the border |
| 12:58.50 | Zolden | so, they simple move not that fast, to prolong their life and reproduce |
| 12:59.33 | Zolden | in the same time, they could move left or right, to not be pushed sooer or later, and theoretically survive as long as they avoid those aobstacles |
| 12:59.44 | Zolden | but it's enough to simply move down slowly |
| 13:00.40 | anarch | because they still manage to reproduce |
| 13:00.46 | Zolden | anarch http://i.imgur.com/8m5QPwW.png |
| 13:00.54 | Zolden | lines are obstacles, circles are organisms |
| 13:01.01 | Zolden | lines slowly move down |
| 13:01.38 | anarch | do any of them move side to side or do they all just learn to dodge downward? |
| 13:02.01 | Zolden | they try many things, some move to sides |
| 13:02.32 | Zolden | but they need to develop a feedback circuit, to move side just a little, and stop when they reach the wall |
| 13:03.05 | Zolden | so, the ones who develop side move die too early, and don't have much chance to reproduce |
| 13:03.35 | Zolden | though, I've changed the model, also, reconfigured mutations, and now start another experiemtn |
| 13:03.49 | Zolden | on stronger coputer, with bigger population |
| 13:04.09 | Zolden | those raycasts I use as sense organs are cpu-heavy |
| 13:04.16 | anarch | maybe instead of making the side boarders kill them, just make it halt movement... so maybe they will start figuring out that they need to mix up their side to side movement once in a while |
| 13:04.25 | Zolden | so, max population size was about 400 organisms |
| 13:04.37 | Zolden | 10 seconds per population |
| 13:04.57 | Zolden | so, only 360 generations per hour |
| 13:05.07 | Zolden | not much |
| 13:05.46 | Zolden | later I will try more friendly environment |
| 13:06.27 | Zolden | but now I want to find a configuration, that will provide some constant progress in this experiemtn |
| 13:06.49 | anarch | i have an idea |
| 13:06.56 | Zolden | yea? |
| 13:07.06 | anarch | maybe some variation of somehting like this: |
| 13:07.53 | anarch | after each time they make a decision and move, they can reasses their current safety level based on how close or far they are from an obstacle or boarder. i.e. if they end up moving close to an obstacle, it is a negative value, if they move farther it is a positive value |
| 13:08.01 | anarch | then use this value to adjust the weigt of that decision for next time |
| 13:08.36 | anarch | so they can actively tune their behavior by knowing when their move is bringing them safer or just delaying the inevitable or actually bringing them to more danger |
| 13:09.02 | anarch | and also if they see a border and their move is moving them towards that border, it naturally provides negative reinforcement for that behavior |
| 13:09.20 | anarch | as their safety level goes DOWN by closing in on the border |
| 13:09.30 | anarch | so it prompts them to fix this |
| 13:10.38 | anarch | so a sort of "back-propagation" to analyse how strong or weak the organisms move was, and adjust future behavior accordingly |
| 13:10.53 | anarch | and that would work along side the genetic reproduction |
| 13:11.08 | anarch | anyways, that was just an idea, not sure if its ideal or the direction you want to go with it |
| 13:11.15 | anarch | ill brb in a few minutes, coffee_time(); |
| 13:11.39 | Zolden | this all supposed to happen automatically |
| 13:11.55 | Zolden | network jsut evolves, and creates dependencies like this |
| 13:12.01 | anarch | hm |
| 13:12.15 | Zolden | if it doesn't, I have to edit evolution or mutation rules |
| 13:12.26 | Zolden | or interpretation of genetic information |
| 13:12.28 | anarch | would i be correct in assuming each organism has several raycasts to detect their environment? maybe at least 4? |
| 13:12.42 | Zolden | 6 |
| 13:12.55 | anarch | alright, and each of the 6 i assume has it's own input node in your brain-web-thingy? |
| 13:12.59 | Zolden | 0, 60, 90, 120, 180 and 270 degrees |
| 13:13.11 | Zolden | yes, each has input node |
| 13:13.44 | anarch | so if there is an obstacle falling on a creature, in the middle, it should be a different starting state than an obstacle falling on a creature near the border, because he knows the border is there, yes? |
| 13:15.02 | Zolden | yes, it's different state of input |
| 13:15.44 | Zolden | so, they theoretically may develop some curcuits to handle this situation differently |
| 13:15.54 | anarch | alright, that is what i was wondering |
| 13:18.03 | anarch | maybe if you let it run long enough, eventually 1 will develop the correct mechanism and use it to survive a long time |
| 13:18.14 | Zolden | yes, maybe |
| 13:18.21 | Zolden | today will leave it working at night |
| 13:18.21 | anarch | hm |
| 13:19.44 | anarch | i think if you added the back-propagation it would speed up their evolution. but you want to stick specifically to the genetic evolution? |
| 13:20.03 | Zolden | yes, I can only use genetical methods |
| 13:20.24 | anarch | alright |
| 13:20.36 | anarch | is there some kind of delay from when they are born to when they are able ot reproduce? |
| 13:21.41 | Zolden | experiment ends eaither after 30 seconds or if 80% of population dies |
| 13:22.07 | Zolden | then the best x% reproduce |
| 13:22.20 | Zolden | with slightly higher chance to reproduce from the best ones |
| 13:22.34 | anarch | and then it repeats from the begining? |
| 13:22.42 | Zolden | yeah |
| 13:22.45 | anarch | ah i see |
| 13:22.51 | anarch | so the ones that move downward |
| 13:22.54 | anarch | instead of to the sides |
| 13:22.59 | anarch | are actually surviving entirely |
| 13:23.06 | anarch | through the reset |
| 13:23.15 | anarch | so they arent actually ever being killed off for this strategy? |
| 13:23.22 | anarch | its basically a winning strategy? |
| 13:23.39 | Zolden | it's a reproducing strategy |
| 13:23.50 | Zolden | but experiment allows better strategies |
| 13:24.31 | Zolden | I changed mutation rules. Now adding genes happens slightly more frequently than removing |
| 13:24.40 | Zolden | so, they may slightly grow in genome size |
| 13:25.20 | Zolden | it was equal, and I'm afraid, tey all had small genomes, and it was not much space to develop complex behaving |
| 13:26.04 | anarch | at the end of each round, do all surviving creatures move to the next round? and does it re-initialize their positions or do they start in the same spot? |
| 13:26.04 | Zolden | anarch actually I can build exe file, you can run it on your computer if you curious |
| 13:26.18 | anarch | sure |
| 13:26.43 | Zolden | it randomize their positions, and the parents mutate after they reproduce. |
| 13:27.10 | anarch | maybe you could do something like, the higher the creature is on the y axis (higher on the screen) the better odds they have of making babies. so creatures who survive without having to "retreat" from the obstacles are encouraged |
| 13:27.15 | Zolden | waht cpu do you have? so i adjust population number |
| 13:27.35 | anarch | at home its an i7, 2.6ghz 12GB ram |
| 13:27.38 | anarch | him at work atm |
| 13:27.43 | Zolden | anarch yea, good idea, I'll try it |
| 13:27.48 | anarch | cool ^_^ |
| 13:28.15 | anarch | ill brb |
| 13:28.18 | anarch | coffeetime for real now |
| 13:28.21 | Zolden | ok |
| 13:32.35 | Zolden | anarch pm me your mail |
| 13:38.59 | Rommper | did you try the map Zolden? |
| 13:39.37 | Zolden | I was too busy with my project, will try today |
| 13:40.39 | Zolden | Rommper why do you want me to play it? |
| 13:41.36 | Rommper | just asked |
| 13:42.21 | Zolden | i don't ask, why you asked, I ask, why do you wnat me to play it |
| 13:54.41 | anarch | Zolden: another idea i thought of |
| 13:55.53 | anarch | perhaps turning up the pressure, more time per round, maybe up to 60 - 240 seconds. and lower the population threathhold, perhaps down from 80% to 20% |
| 13:56.14 | anarch | so it will really test the endurance of the strategies the creatures develop |
| 13:59.05 | Zolden | anarch they don't reach the time cap, cause 80% die at first 10 sec |
| 13:59.18 | anarch | ah i see |
| 13:59.40 | Zolden | and now i use 40% best to reproduce |
| 14:00.21 | Zolden | also, i'll send the build to you a bit later, becasue this one juse cause array index out of range error |
| 14:00.25 | Zolden | need to debug a bit |
| 14:01.46 | Zolden | Rommper best way to get feedback is to play it alot 1-2 evenings, inviting much players, just to push the map to that auto-feature list, so it show up on main page, that would bring more players, and push the map to the page 2, there peole will play it even more, and then the map either go down, or go to page 1. |
| 14:02.08 | Zolden | If it goes down, you must think about gameplay mechanics, and make the map funnier. But reviews are rarely provide the ideas that would make the map funnier. Though, they help to debug |
| 14:04.44 | anarch | Zolden: np, im at work atm so limited in what i can do anyways |
| 14:18.24 | Merc | Zolden: still without HOTS beta key? |
| 14:22.11 | Zolden | Merc i have it for a few months, but don't want to play |
| 14:22.19 | Merc | alright |
| 14:22.56 | Zolden | that game's for kids |
| 14:23.27 | Merc | most games are |
| 14:24.00 | Zolden | because most people have kid's intellect |
| 14:33.26 | Merc | not sure if most people play games to feel like they're intelligent superbeings |
| 14:44.45 | Zolden | games are problems to solve, people like to solve problems, cause it brings fun, playing games is intelligence utilization |
| 14:45.21 | Zolden | each problem can be solved and give some fun, or can be failed, and bring some suffer |
| 14:45.42 | Zolden | the more complex is solved, the more fun is gained |
| 14:46.11 | Zolden | the main aim for people is to maximize fun |
| 14:46.46 | Zolden | so, there may be different strategies: play simple games and have little fun, or play complex games, and either have alot of fun, or alot of suffer from failing |
| 14:47.02 | Zolden | the smarter a person is, the more chance, that second strategy bring more fun |
| 14:47.19 | Zolden | therefore, the smarter people overall, the more complex games are being played |
| 14:48.51 | Zolden | btw, making games itself is a game too, just smarter |
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| 15:29.55 | Merc | physical dexterity has a lot to do with it as well |
| 15:31.16 | Zolden | well, I hoped we aren't talking about spinal brain games |
| 15:32.02 | Zolden | oh, it's called neuraxis, not even brain |
| 15:46.45 | anarch | ive been working on a little 2d sprite game |
| 15:46.50 | anarch | as part of my unity learning adventure |
| 15:46.58 | anarch | fun times :F |
| 15:46.59 | anarch | :D |
| 16:22.29 | Zolden | http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/development/terrain/76956-weekly-terraining-exercise-199-crossover |
| 16:23.15 | Zolden | anarch yea, one has to build a few small simple games to learn a HUGETON of useful stuff about unity and good coding practices |
| 16:26.49 | anarch | yep :D |
| 16:27.02 | anarch | luckily ive been in to programming as a hobby for many many years |
| 16:27.22 | anarch | but working in a game dev environment was definitely a change in perspective |
| 16:27.36 | anarch | i wish i had unity like 15 yrs ago to be honest |
| 16:27.44 | anarch | i guess we all do :P |
| 16:28.33 | Zolden | yea |
| 16:28.46 | Zolden | especially this C# + .net thing |
| 16:36.17 | anarch | yea |
| 16:48.57 | Goa_ | Ohh Zolden while sorting some of my bookmarks today I found this: http://ds9a.nl/amazing-dna/ |
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| 16:51.08 | Zolden | Goa_ is this article the whole thing, or it's a preview of a bigger thing? |
| 16:52.38 | Goa_ | I dont remember:D |
| 16:54.52 | Goa_ | I remember that smart people linked it to me |
| 16:55.36 | Zolden | ok, i'll read it |
| 16:55.48 | Zolden | i like what smart people link |
| 16:56.04 | Zolden | and i think we would share our opinion about if a person smart or not |
| 16:57.10 | Goa_ | for all the game of thrones funs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF9ML4dKphE |
| 17:03.46 | Goa_ | Zolden got to love your country.D http://vpk-news.ru/articles/24405 |
| 17:06.37 | Zolden | fuck those clowns |
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| 18:28.48 | Zolden | Goa_ his attempts to image dna as code are annoying |
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| 19:11.10 | Goa_ | Zolden will read the page later:D |
| 19:16.26 | Zolden | yea, yea, one more year later |
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| 19:44.48 | draktok | So should I launch my map that has had 0 testing done since the 2.1.9 patch launched live? :D |
| 19:45.07 | draktok | Ie i haven't looked at it / tested it since about a week before ptr went down a month ish or so ago |
| 19:45.19 | DeadZergling | sure, get a few 1-2 star ratings, ensure it gets no plays ever again! |
| 19:45.33 | draktok | well |
| 19:46.00 | draktok | i had said at the beginning i don't care if anyone plays it TBH - i made the game is it was a lan party favorite for some friends and I back in high school - so really as long as we can play it i'm happy ;D |
| 19:46.15 | draktok | (its a wc3 remake) |
| 19:47.23 | draktok | i just wonder - if the wc3 mod i was dependent on (renee's mod) has really broke my game or not |
| 19:48.54 | anarch | i would test it first... xD |
| 19:49.15 | draktok | wait |
| 19:49.19 | draktok | i just try to upload however |
| 19:49.22 | draktok | and i get error |
| 19:49.30 | draktok | "variant definitions could not be validated" |
| 19:49.33 | draktok | what does it mean? |
| 19:49.34 | Zolden | DeadZergling recognize? http://i.imgur.com/Tt0Ydu9.jpg |
| 19:49.59 | DeadZergling | focused on Dune again Zolden ? |
| 19:50.34 | Zolden | i never focused on it, and is not now, jsut a terrain for mozared's wte |
| 19:52.22 | draktok | look like |
| 19:52.23 | DeadZergling | with a few adjustments, the spice would look like a world map |
| 19:52.25 | draktok | dune 2000 |
| 19:58.20 | Zolden | DeadZergling yea, after ww3 |
| 20:01.02 | draktok | well |
| 20:01.05 | draktok | i can't figure out error publishing |
| 20:01.14 | draktok | so its official i will delete my 2 months of work on the map and play a new game :D |
| 20:03.01 | DeadZergling | if that is what you wanna do draktok , seems kind of wasteful though |
| 20:03.14 | draktok | thats how i feel |
| 20:03.16 | draktok | after i eat a nice steak |
| 20:03.18 | draktok | and then i poop it out |
| 20:03.21 | draktok | so i quit eating nice steaks |
| 20:03.29 | draktok | but no seriously i can't figure out error |
| 20:03.29 | draktok | meh |
| 20:55.32 | DeadZergling | what error are you getting, draktok ? |
| 20:55.43 | draktok | "variant definitions could not be validated" |
| 20:56.19 | DeadZergling | so is an issue with just variants? could you try deleting that and starting over? |
| 21:08.56 | draktok | what do you mean? |
| 21:09.02 | draktok | What variants do I delete? |
| 21:31.15 | Zolden | anarch 1200 generation passed, still shitty strategy |
| 21:31.31 | Zolden | looks like there's no window of opportunity |
| 21:31.47 | Zolden | cause I interpret output from genome as acceleration |
| 21:32.11 | Zolden | so, small numbers doesn't let to avoid obstacles, and bigger numbers just kill organism on the wall |
| 21:32.35 | Zolden | so, next time I'll try to interpret output not as force, but as velocity |
| 21:37.45 | draktok | DeadZergling idk what change |
| 21:37.50 | draktok | I uninstall sc2 and reinstall and it work |
| 21:37.51 | draktok | lol |
