| 00:00.05 | rtschutter | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:00.05 | rtschutter | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:00.05 | rtschutter | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:00.05 | rtschutter | <PROTECTED> |
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| 00:00.06 | rtschutter | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:00.07 | rtschutter | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:01.16 | ArcanePariah|Sch | For the first message, add a term, set it to At, and set that to scope target |
| 00:02.33 | rtschutter | hmm |
| 00:02.37 | rtschutter | now it does not show up at all |
| 00:02.46 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Interesting |
| 00:04.48 | rtschutter | lol |
| 00:04.49 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Ok, so the OrbitalDropMines persisisten is the 2nd persistent? |
| 00:04.54 | rtschutter | I changed it to source |
| 00:04.57 | ArcanePariah|Sch | persistent |
| 00:04.59 | ArcanePariah|Sch | * |
| 00:05.09 | rtschutter | and now it appears at a different location than the starting point AND the units |
| 00:05.15 | rtschutter | yes |
| 00:05.43 | *** join/#sc2mapster Repo (~repo@76.164.170.2) |
| 00:06.10 | rtschutter | the first persistent is supposed to just find a random location though it appears to find the same location each time |
| 00:06.39 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Are you using periodic offset with random offset? |
| 00:06.52 | rtschutter | I am only using the random offset flag |
| 00:06.57 | rtschutter | I don't know what periodic offset is |
| 00:07.22 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Ahh kk, well, to make it somewhat random you need to use periodic. |
| 00:07.31 | ArcanePariah|Sch | You need to set period count to 1 |
| 00:07.36 | ArcanePariah|Sch | period duration to 0 |
| 00:07.46 | ArcanePariah|Sch | and then your effect in periodic effects. |
| 00:07.56 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Then in periodic offsets, you need to create a list of possible offsets |
| 00:08.08 | rtschutter | what effect in periodic effects? |
| 00:08.18 | ArcanePariah|Sch | By setting the random offset flag, instead of choosing the first periodic offset, it picks an offset at random from the list. |
| 00:08.28 | ArcanePariah|Sch | The effect you want placed randomly |
| 00:08.37 | ArcanePariah|Sch | so the 2nd persistent I think. |
| 00:09.19 | ArcanePariah|Sch | All 3 of the Random flags refer to periodic, by picking a random periodic effect or offset or period, since you can have multiples in each. |
| 00:15.52 | *** join/#sc2mapster Repo (~repo@76.164.170.2) |
| 00:18.20 | *** join/#sc2mapster Repo (~repo@76.164.170.2) |
| 00:20.33 | rtschutter | hmmm |
| 00:21.33 | rtschutter | do you have skype arcane? |
| 00:21.38 | rtschutter | do I already have you on skype? |
| 00:31.01 | rtschutter | I am surprised there isn't a way to just set a range for the random offset...because man |
| 00:31.11 | rtschutter | to get it to feel really random I would have to add hundreds of these offsets |
| 00:36.49 | rtschutter | also for some reason if I call this persistent multiple times in the same set it will find the same random offset every time |
| 00:37.19 | rtschutter | and if I add make the period count 10, it will find the same offset for all 10 periods as well even though I have 30 different offsets in here now |
| 00:44.51 | *** join/#sc2mapster Repo (~repo@76.164.170.2) |
| 00:46.04 | rtschutter | okay nevermind my offsets just need to be larger, I thought the units were naturally spreading apart but it is the random offsets |
| 00:46.33 | rtschutter | I am going to create a map that generates a text file with the random offsets so I do not have to enter them all manually |
| 00:47.06 | *** join/#sc2mapster Repo (~repo@76.164.170.2) |
| 00:51.47 | *** join/#sc2mapster Repo (~repo@76.164.170.2) |
| 00:52.16 | rtschutter | oh shit its all working |
| 00:52.20 | rtschutter | I just need to create more offsets |
| 00:52.25 | rtschutter | thanks for your help man you are awesome |
| 00:55.35 | Kazimir | Anyone know exactly how the larva production system works? I want to make an automated version of the scv based on mules. |
| 00:56.30 | Dustin|Work | Whatcha working on rtschutter? |
| 00:58.57 | rtschutter | I am creating an RTS game like company of heroes, where you have commander abilities in addition to your units |
| 00:59.16 | rtschutter | this particular ability |
| 00:59.23 | rtschutter | calls in an air drop of mines |
| 00:59.27 | rtschutter | to cover an area of the map |
| 01:05.31 | IskatuMesk | mmm dual monitors |
| 01:06.12 | IskatuMesk | still no jademus |
| 01:06.16 | IskatuMesk | how misappointing |
| 01:08.40 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Kazimir, it is done via a spawn behavior |
| 01:09.38 | Kazimir | Figured that much :-P Is there a condition for number of units spawned by that behavior from that unit? |
| 01:10.06 | Kazimir | What I'm actually doing is making a building that produces harvesters, who harvest anything within a certain range of the building. |
| 01:10.34 | Kazimir | I don't want it to have more than X harvesters per building though. |
| 01:10.35 | Dustin|Work | Ahh cools |
| 01:10.44 | ArcanePariah|Sch | You can limit the overall number of units spawned from it, so once that many units are created, it will create no more. Then you can set a limit per index, and each index can run a limit on units |
| 01:11.14 | ArcanePariah|Sch | You can set how many units are created per cycle and the delay per cycle (Count and Delay fields). I think you will want the Limit field |
| 01:11.33 | ArcanePariah|Sch | So that it will cap the number of harvesters produced by the building |
| 01:12.22 | Kazimir | Alright, next question then...Can a unit seek out a specific unit type via behavior? |
| 01:12.31 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Sure |
| 01:12.35 | Kazimir | (I have tree units that are killed for minerals) |
| 01:12.52 | Kazimir | WC3 style lumber harvesting :-D |
| 01:13.11 | ArcanePariah|Sch | If we are using harvest abilties, you can set them to only search for specific resource types |
| 01:14.15 | Kazimir | Nah, using a weapon that can only target the tree unit :-P |
| 01:14.20 | Kazimir | not actual harvesting |
| 01:14.48 | Kazimir | although, there ARE mineral fields (that look like trees with the mineral splat in the roots) |
| 01:14.52 | Kazimir | so that's good to know |
| 01:16.59 | Kazimir | On a completely different note...I'm trying to reduce the slowdown associated with having waves of units path around all over the place. |
| 01:17.26 | IskatuMesk | good luck |
| 01:17.43 | Kazimir | Any ideas? So far I've removed the animations from all doodads, reduced the game speed, and attempted to smooth out the paths so they don't have to work TOO hard. |
| 01:18.01 | IskatuMesk | pretty sure the smart pathing collision detection is responsible for that, my tests yielded such |
| 01:18.31 | IskatuMesk | animations and such won't effect that |
| 01:18.36 | IskatuMesk | it;s pure cpu |
| 01:19.06 | Kazimir | Having 30,000 trees on the map will introduce overhead that makes those calculations harder :-P |
| 01:19.25 | Kazimir | (Note this is AFTER I cut the tree count in half and made them twice as large) |
| 01:19.25 | *** join/#sc2mapster IcE^ (ice@skalman.tech.dreamhack.se) |
| 01:19.33 | IskatuMesk | I am pretty sure it's the act of actively calculating the collision that does it |
| 01:19.48 | IskatuMesk | though, 30k trees is likely to hit the unit limit long before that |
| 01:20.07 | IskatuMesk | sc2 starts to freak out pretty quickly, causing stuff on the minimap to vanish and commands to break |
| 01:22.20 | IskatuMesk | keep in mind, if we talk about the AI, the cpu hit is exponentially higher than a player, too |
| 01:22.50 | IskatuMesk | I am struggling to keep sc2 above 7fps on a map with only 5 players and virtually no doodads |
| 01:23.28 | Kazimir | Just checked. 4.5k preplaced objects, with an indeterminate amount created as needed. During the game it breaks the cap regularly by a really primitive culling trigger. |
| 01:23.50 | IskatuMesk | that is quite a few objects haha |
| 01:23.58 | IskatuMesk | but then my big maps may have as much. And be unplayable |
| 01:23.59 | Kazimir | Most of it is trees. |
| 01:24.12 | Kazimir | Mine is playable until enemy waves pick up. |
| 01:24.18 | IskatuMesk | AI? |
| 01:24.22 | Kazimir | ? |
| 01:24.29 | IskatuMesk | the computer AI may be causing more cpu hit than the pathing in itself |
| 01:24.42 | Kazimir | It's using dumb ai. No actual AI, just commands. |
| 01:24.43 | IskatuMesk | but yeah, units colliding is super cpu hungry in sc2 |
| 01:24.46 | IskatuMesk | ah |
| 01:25.02 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Well collision IS a hard math problem, not much that can get around that sadly |
| 01:25.11 | IskatuMesk | something like what that starbow guy had used... that caused units to sort of seperate when they moved, may help |
| 01:25.21 | IskatuMesk | sc1 performed reasonably well, sans some bugs |
| 01:25.32 | Kazimir | SC2 has its fair share of pathing bugs >.> |
| 01:25.36 | ArcanePariah|Sch | SC1 performed fine because it had shit pathing straight up |
| 01:25.41 | Kazimir | One is inherent to the engine and won't ever be fixed. |
| 01:25.41 | Kazimir | T-T |
| 01:25.55 | IskatuMesk | naw... sc1 was satisfactory save aforementioned bugs |
| 01:25.59 | IskatuMesk | fixing those bugs and it would be fine |
| 01:26.14 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Yeah, it also would be completely incompatible with a modern game... |
| 01:26.16 | Kazimir | Anyway, what did Starbow do? |
| 01:26.20 | IskatuMesk | wc3 on the other hand was horrendous |
| 01:26.25 | IskatuMesk | sc1 is pretty modern |
| 01:26.33 | ArcanePariah|Sch | No its not, its isomorphic |
| 01:26.35 | Kazimir | Also, I'd actually prefer if they had decent AI, but I have no bloody clue how to implement it. |
| 01:26.37 | IskatuMesk | not sure exactly, some behavior or something that caused units to move angularly |
| 01:26.39 | ArcanePariah|Sch | it isn't 3d, thus was easy |
| 01:26.51 | IskatuMesk | sc2 is technically still 2d as far as pathing is concerned |
| 01:26.54 | IskatuMesk | 3d is just for looks |
| 01:27.00 | IskatuMesk | (and is entirely unnecessary) |
| 01:27.07 | greybeard | http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/resources/data-assets/68124-pirated-assets/ |
| 01:27.08 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Ermm... no? |
| 01:27.12 | IskatuMesk | yep. |
| 01:27.12 | greybeard | added my "easy status bars" |
| 01:27.20 | ArcanePariah|Sch | It has tons of 3d pathing, look at any and all movers |
| 01:27.32 | IskatuMesk | only the physics are technically 3d and those are client side |
| 01:27.37 | IskatuMesk | no multi-level bridges for example |
| 01:27.38 | IskatuMesk | all 2d |
| 01:27.48 | IskatuMesk | movers are probably weird |
| 01:28.00 | IskatuMesk | but the pathing map is a planar mesh |
| 01:28.07 | ArcanePariah|Sch | So you want 3d terrain, not 3d movement. |
| 01:28.21 | IskatuMesk | and the AI/units read that mesh afaik |
| 01:28.36 | IskatuMesk | technically, you can 3d movement in sc1 |
| 01:28.39 | IskatuMesk | fake* |
| 01:28.44 | IskatuMesk | same with wc3 |
| 01:29.02 | ArcanePariah|Sch | The mesh is part of it, but it is also about the collision radius of each unit + collision flags + coexistance flags. |
| 01:29.15 | IskatuMesk | but ultimately, the improvements sc2 made to pathing are kind of irrelevant for most gameplay |
| 01:29.33 | IskatuMesk | most of it just dumbs down gameplay if anything |
| 01:29.49 | ArcanePariah|Sch | I would not say dumb down, it does reduce the mechanical floor |
| 01:29.52 | IskatuMesk | I am curious if selectively disabling things like sort priority would improve performance... |
| 01:30.20 | IskatuMesk | mechanics are an integral part of gameplay |
| 01:30.34 | IskatuMesk | well, actual mechanics, not make believe ones like those sc2 added |
| 01:30.43 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Ok, so if I made the game have 3 unit select, that would be an improvement? |
| 01:30.52 | IskatuMesk | that would greatly depend on your game |
| 01:30.52 | ArcanePariah|Sch | I just raised the mechainical requirement to the moon |
| 01:30.56 | IskatuMesk | but yes |
| 01:30.58 | IskatuMesk | it could be |
| 01:31.10 | IskatuMesk | many games come with such decisions |
| 01:31.10 | ArcanePariah|Sch | so why is removing such a restraint a bad thing? |
| 01:31.27 | IskatuMesk | unit selection is vastly different from a game playing itself |
| 01:31.35 | IskatuMesk | which is more or less the direction sc2 went in |
| 01:31.48 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Hmm? |
| 01:31.54 | IskatuMesk | unit selection is a way of abstracting player interaction with the game |
| 01:32.11 | IskatuMesk | if I can word that right anyways |
| 01:32.33 | ArcanePariah|Sch | I'm trying to understand why SC2 is seen as so horrendous from a game design point of view, its been... repeated quite a bit. |
| 01:32.56 | IskatuMesk | since sc2 removed a huge amount of mechanical ceiling from sc1 which were player interactive and real-world impacting elements (like pathing-related goofery), and added arbitrative elements that, while demanding to perform, have no actual real-world impact, it dumbed down the game |
| 01:32.59 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Even accounting for some hyperbole, it was made out to be one of the worst games of the ages. |
| 01:33.07 | IskatuMesk | eh... naw |
| 01:33.10 | IskatuMesk | not the worst, far from it |
| 01:33.13 | IskatuMesk | just very lazy |
| 01:33.26 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Welp... I can solve the lazy part, that's easy |
| 01:33.45 | IskatuMesk | sc2 has the responsibility of living up to many things from sc1 and instead they just cheapened it, focus marketed, and rode their logo to fame |
| 01:33.49 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Jack the price up, and pay for it, not complicated |
| 01:34.19 | IskatuMesk | the core problem I think laid in that no sc2 developer with actual power over the game ever tried to understand sc1 |
| 01:34.29 | ArcanePariah|Sch | *Shrug*, Given how cheap sc2 was, not going to object (and yes, 60 for SC2 was techinically less after inflation then SC1) |
| 01:34.36 | IskatuMesk | they instead tried to create an "esports" title from the start |
| 01:34.47 | IskatuMesk | which is, of course, a really bad design flow |
| 01:34.55 | ArcanePariah|Sch | I would agree, because frankly, most "hit" games are accidents in many ways |
| 01:34.59 | IskatuMesk | yeah |
| 01:35.14 | ArcanePariah|Sch | So I would argue they can NOT be understood, even by their original creators. |
| 01:35.27 | IskatuMesk | they can be understood, but more in post-release terms |
| 01:35.40 | ArcanePariah|Sch | The original team of sc1 were amaterurs by their own admission, they barely could code (most were fresh out of college, and C++ was not.. kind back then_ |
| 01:35.41 | IskatuMesk | the information you can extract can improve your wisdom but rarely be activately employed |
| 01:35.51 | IskatuMesk | yep. sc1 is buggy beyond words |
| 01:36.07 | IskatuMesk | but everything fit together and korea made it succeed |
| 01:36.14 | IskatuMesk | they put real effort into the game |
| 01:36.28 | IskatuMesk | people criticized the hell out of it, they improved it, and it really showed despite its flaws |
| 01:36.34 | Repo | New asset: Dark Protoss Textures - http://www.sc2mapster.com/assets/dark-protoss-textures/ |
| 01:36.41 | ArcanePariah|Sch | It evolved into that yes, the original game was... bleh, and some sc1 patches were hilarious (150 mineral pool... lool) |
| 01:37.01 | IskatuMesk | comparatively speaking, sc1's patches are insignificant compared to even those wc3 threw out |
| 01:37.10 | IskatuMesk | meanwhile sc2, wow, and many other games commonly throw colossal patches out |
| 01:37.12 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Do you feel SC2 has not gone through the same process? |
| 01:37.20 | IskatuMesk | nope |
| 01:37.24 | IskatuMesk | sc2 has hardly changed since its alpha |
| 01:37.39 | IskatuMesk | some things got cycled around, but nothing compared to wc3, diablo 3, or even sc1 |
| 01:38.06 | IskatuMesk | I think they set on something, convinced themselves "omgerd esports" would carry them through |
| 01:38.16 | ArcanePariah|Sch | True, WC3 got changed a bunch because most people didn't care. It was never considered balanced ever. |
| 01:38.17 | IskatuMesk | and made the 3 expansion marketing plan to keep it afloat |
| 01:38.17 | Dustin|Work | I was reading about how they had to workaround the SC1 worker units AI pathing in the final days because of how bad the pathing turned out because they switched to non asymetric tiles for the art |
| 01:38.33 | Dustin|Work | ended up hardcoding some stuff that allowed the workers to bypass eachother if they were in the same cell |
| 01:38.35 | IskatuMesk | wc3 is kind of funny |
| 01:38.48 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Dustin|Work, it was bad, the worst part was the carrier, it was its own code branch onto itself |
| 01:38.55 | Dustin|Work | haha ya |
| 01:39.06 | Dustin|Work | so much stuff was just hardcoded in to 'make it work' |
| 01:39.08 | IskatuMesk | I find the whole thing where dota took over, then icefrog tried to get into blizzard, then made one of their biggest competitors completely lopsided against them, absolutely hilarious (especially when they tried to sue his name from under him) |
| 01:39.26 | ArcanePariah|Sch | At the end, IIRC, no one knew how it worked (carrier movement/pathfinding) |
| 01:39.28 | IskatuMesk | the lurker has hardcodes related to the AI building it... scrouge is hardcoded... map revealer... |
| 01:39.54 | IskatuMesk | technically, sc1 projectiles are units like sc2, but a reaaaallly big mess |
| 01:40.11 | IskatuMesk | I encountered all kinds of wack crap when modding it for so long |
| 01:40.25 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Blizzard is/has/will always been in a weird spot, they are really one of a kind. So stuff is going to work funky with blizzard |
| 01:40.42 | IskatuMesk | I look forward to playing blackthorne and lost vikings |
| 01:40.49 | IskatuMesk | to see what they once were |
| 01:40.52 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Mostly stems from them being the only game studio I know of that works on multiple games at once |
| 01:40.59 | IskatuMesk | it will complete the circle of my understanding of them |
| 01:41.32 | Dustin|Work | Blackthorne and Lost vikings are free to get off the bnet site nowadays |
| 01:41.41 | IskatuMesk | but I am pretty sure it's just the simple equation of greed |
| 01:41.52 | ArcanePariah|Sch | I seriosuly wonder how the hell they make having 5 games worked on at once work at all. |
| 01:42.00 | IskatuMesk | they outsource a fair bit |
| 01:42.02 | Dustin|Work | WoW money |
| 01:42.04 | Dustin|Work | that's the only way :P |
| 01:42.06 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Nah, I doubt it is that simple. |
| 01:42.08 | IskatuMesk | and their staff is titanic |
| 01:42.18 | IskatuMesk | just the amount they laid off a while back was colossal |
| 01:42.40 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Dustin|Work, partly yes, I think that plus they play the long game of sorts, they like to take their time. |
| 01:43.14 | ArcanePariah|Sch | IskatuMesk, I chalk that up to the failure of Titan, I think Blizzard inevitably ran into the realization that big teams =/= good teams, if anything, the overhead its prohibitive. |
| 01:43.15 | IskatuMesk | I hope activision sells them to EA or ubisoft some day |
| 01:43.17 | IskatuMesk | it would be glorious |
| 01:43.22 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Err, why? |
| 01:43.27 | Dustin|Work | Yeah, well I mean Valve and Blizzard are the top developers for fans, and they both take their time on their releases, so obviously it's paying off |
| 01:43.28 | IskatuMesk | entertainment |
| 01:43.40 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Blizzard can't be sold techinically |
| 01:44.00 | IskatuMesk | yeah... it's unfortunate |
| 01:44.02 | ArcanePariah|Sch | It would be weird/complex to do such a transaction, separating them from Activision/Blizzard |
| 01:44.10 | Dustin|Work | I thought blizzard succeeded from activision or became a partner company and not directly owned and operated by activision |
| 01:44.25 | ArcanePariah|Sch | They are partners under a holding company of sorts |
| 01:44.28 | IskatuMesk | kotick just needs to get more sway on their workings |
| 01:44.29 | Dustin|Work | Ah |
| 01:44.36 | IskatuMesk | he's a good lad |
| 01:44.38 | rtschutter | is there any easy way to set the number of decimal places on a real in the editor? |
| 01:45.02 | Dustin|Work | Output yes, internally not by default |
| 01:45.05 | ArcanePariah|Sch | But yes, they are financially independent, something that is relatively new to Blizzard, they were owned by somebody up until like a year or 2 ago |
| 01:45.21 | Dustin|Work | You can write a function that trims extra decimals when setting a var or something though |
| 01:45.52 | IskatuMesk | there are only a few developers I consider respectable at this time... blizzard hasn't been there since d2 classic, hah |
| 01:45.54 | rtschutter | thats what I want to do |
| 01:45.59 | ArcanePariah|Sch | What Dustin|Work said, just a limit of computers and a design choice. |
| 01:46.05 | ArcanePariah|Sch | IskatuMesk, then who is? |
| 01:46.11 | IskatuMesk | platinum games is one |
| 01:46.13 | IskatuMesk | followed by Cave |
| 01:46.20 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Ahh, so basically no one large |
| 01:46.24 | IskatuMesk | indeed |
| 01:46.28 | IskatuMesk | large seems to come with a curse |
| 01:46.36 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Its a tradeoff. |
| 01:46.38 | IskatuMesk | I think valve has potential... I like their style... but not their games |
| 01:46.49 | ArcanePariah|Sch | valve... valve no longer develops any games |
| 01:46.53 | IskatuMesk | aye |
| 01:46.56 | IskatuMesk | I think they should |
| 01:47.00 | IskatuMesk | like, real games |
| 01:47.01 | rtschutter | I see a way to round to zero decimal places, but no way to round to 1 |
| 01:47.02 | IskatuMesk | not puzzlers |
| 01:47.16 | ArcanePariah|Sch | And why would they? Gabe learned well from Bill gates, his former boss |
| 01:47.23 | IskatuMesk | if I could pull an icefrog and dip into their coffers I'd be a happy man |
| 01:47.28 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Better to be the middleman with a lock. |
| 01:47.32 | IskatuMesk | yep |
| 01:47.36 | IskatuMesk | their business sense is quite sharp |
| 01:47.53 | IskatuMesk | the holiday card things? |
| 01:47.58 | IskatuMesk | god, the money they make off of something so stupid |
| 01:48.01 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Yes, sadly... means we basically agree to a Valve monopoly on game distribution |
| 01:48.13 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Since they already more or less have it |
| 01:48.17 | IskatuMesk | yeah |
| 01:48.36 | IskatuMesk | poof |
| 01:48.47 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Sad that good things have to come from the most abusive economic practicies, seems to be quite a trend. |
| 01:49.03 | IskatuMesk | no standards, nothing |
| 01:49.06 | IskatuMesk | may the dirtiest man win |
| 01:49.18 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Guess its karmic balance, we get Steam as penance for Windows :P |
| 01:49.25 | IskatuMesk | but then I would be hard pressed to find an industry with real standards |
| 01:49.37 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Ermm... most outside of tech do |
| 01:49.46 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Most trades do |
| 01:49.47 | *** join/#sc2mapster Deaod (~deaod@deaod.de) |
| 01:49.47 | IskatuMesk | almost nothing media related I can think of |
| 01:49.51 | IskatuMesk | automotive I hear does |
| 01:49.55 | Dustin|Work | rtschutter, |
| 01:49.59 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Anything related to manufacturing does |
| 01:50.15 | IskatuMesk | is that why everyone buys cheap from china |
| 01:50.21 | Dustin|Work | What you can do is convert the Real to a String, then use the substring function to lop off the end decimals and then convert back to Real |
| 01:50.58 | ArcanePariah|Sch | To a degree yes, certain standards make that possible, starting with metric measurements, weights and measures, the size of the shipping containers so they can pack well on a ship, be loaded on train or on a semi |
| 01:51.07 | IskatuMesk | I really find it fascinating how literally nothing I own is not chinese |
| 01:51.16 | IskatuMesk | and they are universally flimsy |
| 01:51.27 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Because you get what you pay for :D |
| 01:51.34 | IskatuMesk | paying expensive still gets me shit... |
| 01:51.40 | IskatuMesk | guess that's canada for you |
| 01:51.44 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Yes, its the 80/20 rule |
| 01:52.12 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Most people realized they don't need awesome, just good enough. Now for somethings that is changing, others not as much. |
| 01:52.52 | ArcanePariah|Sch | And as usual, capitalism is doing its thing. The chinese are now outsourcing due to the growth of thier middle class |
| 01:53.11 | ArcanePariah|Sch | And firms are coming back to the US since now the cost of fuel + rising wages in china makes it no longer cheap |
| 01:53.20 | IskatuMesk | there are so many dicks in so many mouths that the gordian knot will eventually swallow the galaxy |
| 01:54.08 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Mind you, this does not solve the underlying problem. We are simply too good at automation. The US, for all the outsourcing and what not, SITLL is #2 producer of stuff, including real physical goods. |
| 01:54.17 | *** join/#sc2mapster 6A4AAPGJU (jygga@88.198.49.207) |
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| 01:54.17 | *** mode/#sc2mapster [+v Grum] by rajaniemi.freenode.net |
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| 01:54.43 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Only reason a fair number of job have not been automated yet is humans are still cheaper overseas. |
| 01:54.49 | ArcanePariah|Sch | But that will eventually end. |
| 01:55.11 | IskatuMesk | are you saying I can get a robot to deliver my coffee to me |
| 01:55.18 | IskatuMesk | because that would be fantastic |
| 01:55.28 | Dustin|Work | Roomba + Mechanical arm, done |
| 01:55.33 | ArcanePariah|Sch | You already do, you have a coffee machine yes? You don't pay anyone to hand brew it? |
| 01:55.34 | IskatuMesk | yesss |
| 01:55.45 | IskatuMesk | I mean, I don't want to have to get up |
| 01:55.49 | IskatuMesk | I want to embrace the american dream |
| 01:56.02 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Ok, nothing stops you from placing a coffee makers on your desk |
| 01:56.07 | IskatuMesk | space :( |
| 01:56.11 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Pfft |
| 01:56.14 | IskatuMesk | I got one 5 feet to my left... |
| 01:56.15 | IskatuMesk | but too far |
| 01:57.13 | IskatuMesk | also dual monitors |
| 01:57.15 | IskatuMesk | is amazing |
| 01:57.15 | Dustin|Work | This reminds me of the Futurama Episode where Bender gets a robot to get him a beer and pour it and it pours it like 1 foot away from his mouth and he gets all upset and bitches about it being the medieval ages cause he had to slightly move to the right 1 foot to get his beer dumped in his mouth. |
| 01:57.31 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Wait until you get 3 |
| 01:57.46 | IskatuMesk | gonna need to rob some banks for that |
| 01:57.46 | ArcanePariah|Sch | And then you get 3 1440P ones, 144 HZ |
| 01:57.47 | Dustin|Work | Lol my 3 monitor setup takes up so much desk space |
| 01:57.50 | ArcanePariah|Sch | ^ |
| 01:57.52 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Same |
| 01:58.05 | ArcanePariah|Sch | I'm envious of a friend, he has triple 30" setup |
| 01:58.09 | IskatuMesk | I have barely enough space for 3 |
| 01:58.35 | Dustin|Work | I need to get all my monitors the same size and aspect ratio though so I can play some CSgo with that eyefinity setup |
| 01:58.39 | ArcanePariah|Sch | But that is the benefit of living in an apartment and getting paid the big bucks (he works for Raytheon, programmer, so I assume he is doing well) |
| 01:58.40 | IskatuMesk | but I'll only consider it after a new machine + recording setup |
| 01:58.54 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Dustin|Work, Yeah, I want to do the same, but so hard to save up the cash to do it all in one go |
| 01:58.58 | ArcanePariah|Sch | :( |
| 01:59.07 | Dustin|Work | Tried it with my 24inch, 22inch and 20 inch 4:3, uses the lowest resolution monitor for the base res, looks like poop |
| 01:59.24 | IskatuMesk | I have two 24in widescreens |
| 01:59.35 | IskatuMesk | when I work on a project again it will be a great boon |
| 01:59.46 | IskatuMesk | thumbing between programs is annoying when I run so many |
| 01:59.54 | ArcanePariah|Sch | ^ |
| 01:59.58 | Dustin|Work | Its nice working in the editor with Trigger window on the left, Data on the right and terrain mod in the middle |
| 02:00.10 | IskatuMesk | right now I just have vegas with my audiobook in one and this window on the other, still nice |
| 02:00.12 | ArcanePariah|Sch | When I sit down to a single monitor, I feel so cramped |
| 02:00.27 | IskatuMesk | I felt cramped never having used dual before haha |
| 02:00.33 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Dustin|Work, Yeah, or for me, I spread the data editor over all 3 screen so I can view multiple entries at once |
| 02:00.34 | IskatuMesk | especially with sc2 where you can't preview shit in max |
| 02:00.35 | Dustin|Work | Same, I have to have Virtuawin (Multi workstation proggy) if Im on my laptop |
| 02:01.04 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Or data/trigger/browser/skype, so I can code and look at design docs and chat with my designer |
| 02:01.25 | Dustin|Work | I just want a wall of monitors damnit |
| 02:01.30 | Dustin|Work | What is this, the dark ages! |
| 02:01.31 | IskatuMesk | it will also make organizing presentations easier if I ever make design videos again |
| 02:01.46 | IskatuMesk | but no one was ever interested in that... so eh |
| 02:01.51 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Dustin|Work, nah, but if I may make social commentary, we are living in the Gilded Ages 2.0 |
| 02:02.02 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Age* |
| 02:02.41 | Dustin|Work | hehe |
| 02:03.07 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Or if I were in a truly analytical and cynical mood, we are replaying 1938 |
| 02:03.28 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Subsitute ISIS for Germany and Russia for Japan |
| 02:05.50 | ArcanePariah|Sch | In any case, I would like triple monitor, same size/config, as well |
| 02:06.18 | rtschutter | is there a max number of periodic offsets you can have? |
| 02:06.24 | ArcanePariah|Sch | 30 |
| 02:06.31 | rtschutter | well fuck |
| 02:06.35 | ArcanePariah|Sch | But even then, that's a lie of sorts :D |
| 02:06.40 | rtschutter | there must be a better way to do this? |
| 02:07.00 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Because nothing stops you from creating multiple persistents, and placing them in periodic effects of another master persistent and doing random effect |
| 02:07.26 | ArcanePariah|Sch | So you could cascade them (1 persistent with 30 random persistents, and each of those has 30 random offsets) |
| 02:07.32 | rtschutter | but that is a lot more work |
| 02:07.35 | rtschutter | A LOT |
| 02:07.35 | ArcanePariah|Sch | so 900 random spots. |
| 02:07.36 | rtschutter | more work |
| 02:07.41 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Yes it is, the best way is triggers |
| 02:07.46 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Since it can do true randomness |
| 02:08.00 | ArcanePariah|Sch | (relatively true, no tech nazi on PRNG) |
| 02:08.26 | rtschutter | I created a map |
| 02:08.30 | rtschutter | that outputs a debug text file |
| 02:08.38 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Could execute dummy effect, get the effect point as a trigger, then run the 2nd effect at a random point around the target point |
| 02:08.40 | rtschutter | with the xml for hundreds of these offsetarray points |
| 02:08.46 | rtschutter | for nothing |
| 02:09.19 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Well... welcome to programming, rewritten some parts of NOTD 1 3 or 4 times now, wonder why I keep wasting time relearning and redoing stuff :P |
| 02:09.48 | rtschutter | the annoying thing is |
| 02:09.52 | rtschutter | 30 is the number I stopped at |
| 02:09.55 | rtschutter | manually adding them |
| 02:10.01 | rtschutter | and decided to create an automated thing |
| 02:10.05 | rtschutter | if I had just done 1 more |
| 02:10.09 | rtschutter | I would have realized it was capped |
| 02:11.27 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Welp, time to bruteforce around crappy programming, loading D3 into a RAM disk |
| 02:11.33 | ArcanePariah|Sch | so damm thing won't stutter |
| 02:11.38 | Dustin|Work | lol |
| 02:11.40 | IskatuMesk | lol |
| 02:12.26 | ArcanePariah|Sch | I know its the disk streaming, and even though its on a SSD, still stutters as it loads stuff on demand, wish blizzard did some kind of feature detection or gave an option to control how much or how early to load stuff |
| 02:13.05 | ArcanePariah|Sch | And might as well use the RAM i have (32 gig, sadly can't upgrade beyond that..) |
| 02:13.29 | Dustin|Work | Damn, i need to get 32 gigs of ram lol |
| 02:13.37 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Wait for DDR4 |
| 02:13.39 | Dustin|Work | Still sitting on 8, which I think is the max for my current Mobo |
| 02:13.50 | Dustin|Work | But I have a Server Board/Ram |
| 02:14.00 | ArcanePariah|Sch | DDR3 is expensive now, was nice to get it 2 years ago, when it hit rock bottom, got 32 gigs for 150USD |
| 02:14.02 | Dustin|Work | So my ram score is like 7.9 on the windows index |
| 02:14.10 | Dustin|Work | damn thats cheap |
| 02:14.38 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Yeah, it was rock bottom then, market bottomed out and then it started climbing again, and now DDR4 is up and we get to repeat the whole cycle again |
| 02:15.37 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Yeah, its expensive again, 10 bucks a gig now :( |
| 02:15.51 | ArcanePariah|Sch | For most people though, an SSD is a far better upgrade |
| 02:17.56 | Dustin|Work | ya SSd is my next item to get |
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| 03:40.15 | IskatuMesk | sup |
| 05:04.40 | *** join/#sc2mapster Frinck (637dfe58@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.125.254.88) |
| 05:04.42 | Frinck | Hay |
| 05:04.57 | Frinck | Had a question if somebody could help. |
| 05:07.12 | Frinck | nobody? |
| 05:29.05 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Sup? |
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| 05:43.48 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Frinck, still have that question? |
| 05:44.27 | Frinck | Sort of, but I'm working on something else at the time. I suppose though that information would still help. I'm basically wondering how to create an "instanced" character selection screen per player for an RPG. |
| 05:44.46 | Frinck | And example of (well, the only example I have of a real game doing this on SC) is Starcraft universe. |
| 05:45.12 | Frinck | I'd like mine not to be so WoW-reminescant |
| 05:54.30 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Dialog items are per player instanced |
| 05:54.55 | ArcanePariah|Sch | If you examine any of the functions that change dialog items, you will notice all of them have a paramter for the player group |
| 05:55.06 | ArcanePariah|Sch | That player group is the ones who see the change. |
| 05:55.22 | ArcanePariah|Sch | If you want a working example, look at my map, NOTD 2 |
| 05:55.51 | ArcanePariah|Sch | You will need to look at the dependency, it has the code under Class Creation |
| 05:56.07 | ArcanePariah|Sch | (The map and all its dependencies are unlocked btw, feel free to DL and examine them. |
| 05:57.10 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Just be careful, since there is a LOT of dependencies in my map. |
| 05:57.27 | ArcanePariah|Sch | It can get a bit confusing (even for myself :D) |
| 05:58.27 | Frinck | Sure, I'll definitely take a look. Just to clarify though, something like http://goo.gl/wvZ0aA? |
| 05:59.02 | Frinck | I would definitely de-WoW-ify it. But if that's possible with dialogs alone. I'm very happy. :) |
| 06:00.47 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Well, it is, but first you should probably familarize yourself with hookups and templates. Examine my code and also examine my UI XML, and understand how I designed stuff i nthe UI xml and simply utilized it in code. |
| 06:01.17 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Dialog items are simply hardcoded templates, that come from the UI module |
| 06:01.42 | Frinck | You can design your own templates? Does it take up a lot of memory? |
| 06:02.05 | ArcanePariah|Sch | But in the UI module, you can create your own UI designs, and have them either be included in the default UI, or created at run time. The advantages to this is that the code only has to deal with the elements you change or control, and leaves the rest alone. |
| 06:02.45 | ArcanePariah|Sch | OH no, in fact, templates, since you are predefining them, take probably less memory and more importantly, they spare you trigger code, makes your code cleaner. |
| 06:03.00 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Look at my code, I use them a fair bit |
| 06:03.14 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Primarly for my Ammo UI, and for my Class Talent Trees |
| 06:03.51 | ArcanePariah|Sch | You can also look at the Heart of the Swarm Campaign library, they use the same style to create much of their UI (like the upgrade screen for kerrigan, and the egg room) |
| 06:04.54 | Frinck | The Egg Room would probably be the best idea. :) |
| 06:04.59 | Frinck | I'll have to test it. |
| 06:05.07 | IskatuMesk | that ui is so generic... |
| 06:05.19 | IskatuMesk | but yeah... avoiding that is easy |
| 06:05.48 | IskatuMesk | I'm just curious if you can even customize those UI graphics |
| 06:05.54 | IskatuMesk | I haven't seen anyone make new ones yet |
| 06:05.57 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Ermm, yes? |
| 06:06.15 | ArcanePariah|Sch | The entire egg room UI is found inthe XML, you can totally rework it if you wanted |
| 06:06.17 | IskatuMesk | the green/blue boarders and all? |
| 06:06.29 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Yes |
| 06:06.35 | IskatuMesk | will definitely look into that if my shit gets off the ground. not that I'll have a lot of custom ui, but what will be there |
| 06:06.54 | IskatuMesk | I'd also like to create some custom console models... wish there was an example one |
| 06:07.10 | ArcanePariah|Sch | The UI editor has special syntax that can make many things colored with racial specific stuff |
| 06:07.21 | IskatuMesk | I want to replace the textures entirely |
| 06:07.26 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Easily done |
| 06:07.30 | IskatuMesk | excellent |
| 06:07.35 | ArcanePariah|Sch | In my map, I removed them altogether |
| 06:07.36 | IskatuMesk | is the game still using flash for some stuff |
| 06:07.38 | IskatuMesk | or is that b.ent only |
| 06:07.55 | ArcanePariah|Sch | It uses it for very edge case stuff, like the fancy startign countdown thingy |
| 06:08.14 | IskatuMesk | ic |
| 06:08.19 | IskatuMesk | I don't know flash, so that's good |
| 06:08.32 | IskatuMesk | though I'd have to learn it for unreal |
| 06:08.36 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Beyond that... not that I'm aware of. Also, FYI, the model stuff used in the UI can get quite interseting, because you can define/alter the camera viewing of it |
| 06:09.02 | IskatuMesk | yeah... that's the part I am really curious about, because it sounds really difficult to get right without an example to go from |
| 06:09.09 | ArcanePariah|Sch | The default UI is 3 models, with the model camera for that UI element zoomed out and look straight at it. |
| 06:10.00 | ArcanePariah|Sch | rtschutter, since I'm the on the topic, did Blizzard finish the in Game UI editor? My hunch is that they did, since they are seemingly redoing the entire Storm UI every 2-3 weeks |
| 06:10.19 | IskatuMesk | maybe they do it by hand like masochists |
| 06:10.41 | IskatuMesk | I mean the xml is already a confusing sea of pain |
| 06:11.00 | IskatuMesk | I miss d2 excels... as messy as they were :3 |
| 06:11.02 | ArcanePariah|Sch | lol, no, there is a tool in game allowing live editing of the UI. The current SC2 patch has it unfinished but the tool does have a save hotkey. So you could live change stuff and see what it looks like in real time and then save it. |
| 06:11.13 | IskatuMesk | I see |
| 06:11.34 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Right now you can live edit most stuff, can't save, but certainly can trial/error stuff, makign it a LOT faster to edit UI stuff |
| 06:11.51 | ArcanePariah|Sch | NOTD 2 UI is pretty heavily customized because of this, we changed... quite a bit |
| 06:12.08 | ArcanePariah|Sch | It still looks like SC2, but... |
| 06:23.55 | Frinck | Arcane, are you dandy with triggers? |
| 06:24.02 | Frinck | I could use some help wiring this thing together. |
| 06:24.20 | ArcanePariah|Sch | I'm dandy with everything :D |
| 06:24.38 | ArcanePariah|Sch | If you look at all the NOTD code and most of its data and UI... that's all me |
| 06:24.56 | Frinck | Wanna take a look at mine real quick? |
| 06:25.22 | ArcanePariah|Sch | Sure, use this site to post the GUI code for me to view |
| 06:25.35 | ArcanePariah|Sch | http://peeeq.de/gui.php?game=sc2 |
| 06:25.47 | ArcanePariah|Sch | select the GUI code and copy as text |
| 06:28.34 | Frinck | oh nono |
| 06:28.49 | Frinck | im not doing that yet, I just need help hooking these movement triggers together |
| 06:29.00 | Frinck | I'm starting on UI tomorrow. x_x |
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| 07:12.32 | IskatuMesk | dandy with everything? say, I've got some lines for officers/crew I need for Ret... |
| 07:12.48 | IskatuMesk | phreak has to go to worlds so he bailed on me |
| 07:13.18 | IskatuMesk | so, you're u |
| 07:13.19 | IskatuMesk | p |
| 07:24.47 | IskatuMesk | defeatism |
| 07:24.57 | IskatuMesk | pulling your modem out is like pulling my heart out |
| 07:34.21 | *** join/#sc2mapster Stewox (657427a4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.101.116.39.164) |
| 07:34.41 | Stewox | IMPEACH OBAMA... The Jews are responsible for all evil! |
| 07:36.07 | Stewox | It is the Zionist conspiracy that is shackling you! |
| 07:36.10 | Stewox | ALEX JONES IS THE TRUTH! |
| 07:36.15 | Stewox | THE U.S. GOVERNMENT ARE MURDERERS! |
| 07:36.18 | Stewox | JUSTICE FOR 9/11! |
| 07:37.03 | Goa | hy tainted |
| 07:37.28 | Goa | ALL HAIL OUR GLORIOUS ONLY TRUE LEADER PUTIN!:) |
| 07:37.55 | Stewox | PUTIN IS A HERO FOR RECLAIMING THE LOST LANDS OF RUSSIA! |
| 07:38.00 | Stewox | CRIMEA FOR RUSSIA! |
| 07:38.08 | Stewox | UKRAINE IS UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE JEWISH BANKING CARTELS! |
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| 10:20.53 | *** join/#sc2mapster Zolden (~AndChat47@213.87.132.18) |
| 10:22.51 | Zolden | Goa so, have u read anything of philip dick |
| 10:23.53 | Zolden | TwoDie wanna rebrend yourself to TwoDye? |
| 10:24.17 | Goa | I read the book you suggested |
| 10:24.22 | Goa | I dont even remember its name:D |
| 10:25.01 | Goa | philip dick not really for me |
| 10:25.03 | Zolden | ubik? |
| 10:25.07 | Goa | yeah ubik |
| 10:25.25 | Goa | btw you want to make a flappy bird style game? |
| 10:25.55 | Zolden | and I vigorously consuming his whole bibliography |
| 10:26.04 | Zolden | yes, i will |
| 10:26.45 | Zolden | mostly because my 2d art guy has all art done |
| 10:27.15 | Zolden | it will have a fun visual conception |
| 10:29.38 | Zolden | TwoDie what about u? ever read philip dick? |
| 10:30.17 | Goa | I start to really hate monodevelop, specially its crappy autocomplete. |
| 10:30.27 | Zolden | looks like he predicted mmorpg's, and the fact that people will get high to play them with better feeling of reality |
| 10:30.58 | Goa | I am already half way done with programming my flappy bird 3d:) |
| 10:31.05 | Zolden | dude, dont let it do double tabs for u |
| 10:32.02 | Zolden | will it have more than 1d movement freedom? |
| 10:34.16 | Goa | yes |
| 10:34.22 | Goa | already has:D |
| 10:36.35 | Goa | what double tabs btw? |
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| 10:46.13 | Zolden | if u press tab twice for the next level of code, like inside while |
| 10:46.14 | Zolden | i like its autocomplete, but tabs must be single |
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| 11:48.07 | TwoDie | b |
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| 14:09.22 | Ashamed | ahh? |
| 14:26.49 | Goa | bahh? |
| 14:31.54 | TwoDie | braahh? |
| 15:06.37 | Ashamed | Grahhhhh? |
| 15:09.17 | *** join/#sc2mapster Zolden (~AndChat47@213.87.138.7) |
| 15:10.39 | Zolden | TwoDie report! |
| 15:12.04 | TwoDie | no dicks here |
| 15:12.36 | TwoDie | http://progressquest.com/play |
| 15:15.14 | TwoDie | loading times tho :/ |
| 15:16.45 | TwoDie | https://i.imgur.com/lPViUS3.jpg |
| 15:16.55 | TwoDie | getting fat on corn |
| 15:17.31 | TwoDie | ohh cool so its already in progress.. |
| 15:18.19 | TwoDie | feels like any grinding game while having BOT playing for you to get items and shiet |
| 15:23.18 | TwoDie | yay a shitty game inc for grand strategy building shiet http://youtu.be/AodMYFnePNs |
| 15:24.44 | TwoDie | tho that masturabtion game is ftw.. those names, those items, that gold and experience levels... jizzing all the way to the toilet |
| 15:28.03 | TwoDie | http://www.grandages.com/us/screens.php |
| 15:31.14 | *** join/#sc2mapster Zolden (~AndChat47@213.87.138.7) |
| 15:31.59 | Zolden | no twod's link 4me |
| 15:36.11 | TwoDie | http://www.grandages.com/us/screens.php |
| 15:37.14 | TwoDie | Machetes vs bare hands http://i.imgur.com/QZuCMjm.jpg |
| 15:38.42 | Zolden | :/ |
| 15:39.10 | TwoDie | but this scenery tho! http://ppcdn.500px.org/83535839/ae473d37011b4b0d488449e99402b037ccc2fc37/2048.jpg |
| 15:46.13 | Zolden | Goa did u read dick on en or hun? |
| 15:57.52 | Ahli | I've executed a cub scout in that progress quest game :x |
| 15:58.21 | Ahli | and I found a kobold penis |
| 16:01.31 | *** join/#sc2mapster ArcanePariah|Sch (~Eric@99-8-167-11.lightspeed.futnca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 16:03.39 | Rommper | hi |
| 16:04.58 | Zolden | lol |
| 16:05.34 | *** join/#sc2mapster ArcanePariah (~Eric@99-8-167-11.lightspeed.futnca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 16:14.26 | Rommper | hey ArcanePariah |
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| 16:19.27 | TwoDie | no tits for you |
| 16:21.04 | Zolden | Twod u saw tits in my shmup screens? |
| 16:21.40 | TwoDie | no |
| 16:22.33 | Zolden | https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.Zolden.hallo_spaceboy_lite |
| 16:22.46 | Zolden | check screenshot |
| 16:24.13 | *** join/#sc2mapster Earth-Fury (~EarthFury@192-0-136-188.cpe.teksavvy.com) |
| 16:30.45 | TwoDie | right |
| 16:31.37 | ArcanePariah | Good morning |
| 16:35.07 | Zolden | i just transformed a bucket of plum into 5 liters of plum drink |
| 16:37.45 | Merc | pervert |
| 16:38.32 | Zolden | u just envy |
| 16:39.11 | Rommper | did you suceed with load ArcanePariah? :D |
| 16:49.53 | Zolden | Arcane do you know what pathfinding algorythm sc2 uses? |
| 16:52.38 | Dustin|Home | Anyone know how to get rid of the shadows on this terratron sawblade? https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/843426/SawBladesShadow.gif |
| 16:54.16 | TwoDie | zolden boxes collinding shiet.. somewhere saw demo of that in action |
| 16:55.00 | ArcanePariah | Rommper, not yet, was going to work on it today |
| 16:55.14 | ArcanePariah | Zolden, IIRC, they said they use a modified version of A* |
| 16:55.33 | Rommper | okey :) |
| 16:55.36 | Dustin|Home | A* is the best * |
| 16:55.42 | TwoDie | and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigation_mesh |
| 16:56.36 | Dustin|Home | Ugh I cant find out where this damned ugly shadow is coming from |
| 16:57.26 | TwoDie | http://www.ai-blog.net/archives/000152.html |
| 16:57.30 | ArcanePariah | Dustin|Home, it may be part of the model, however I will examine |
| 16:59.24 | Dustin|Home | Ive seen the model used without the shadow though I think |
| 16:59.35 | Dustin|Home | I just cleared out all the actor events, last thing I can think of |
| 16:59.48 | ArcanePariah | Dustin|Home, after examing the model, it appears there is a light that is projected upwards off the face of the disk, giving the inner part a glow, this light may be producing a shadow. |
| 17:00.30 | Dustin|Home | Interesting |
| 17:00.46 | *** join/#sc2mapster Bibendus (Bibendus@ip-80-249-36-63.static.adsl.cheapnet.it) |
| 17:00.47 | *** join/#sc2mapster ArcanePariah (~Eric@99-8-167-11.lightspeed.futnca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 17:00.47 | *** join/#sc2mapster Ahli (~asdaaaaa@ip-109-40-17-96.web.vodafone.de) |
| 17:01.45 | Dustin|Home | wish I could disable models from casting shadows |
| 17:01.46 | ArcanePariah | Welcoem back everyone |
| 17:02.00 | *** join/#sc2mapster Goa (~Goa_@91.83.110.56) |
| 17:02.00 | *** join/#sc2mapster Deaod (~deaod@deaod.de) |
| 17:02.08 | ArcanePariah | You should be able to |
| 17:02.10 | Dustin|Home | It only shows in game, not in the editor too |
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| 17:03.03 | *** join/#sc2mapster ScytheBlade1 (~Death@about/pxe/ScytheBlade1) |
| 17:03.42 | Zolden | all shadows are parts of models, actors cant fix em |
| 17:03.55 | Dustin|Home | That's so fucking stupid |
| 17:04.05 | ArcanePariah | Dustin|Home, possible solution, play the walk animation instead of the global stand animation, so disable "Automate Global Loops" |
| 17:04.40 | Zolden | TwoDie did u try to code it for ur ubity rts? |
| 17:04.51 | ArcanePariah | Interesting zolden, but how does SC2 handle things that do not have shadows as part of their models? I thought shadows was something done dynamically and often quite a performance hit. |
| 17:06.00 | TwoDie | zolden no. i still havent start anything real, or at least much more than baby steps.. |
| 17:06.08 | Zolden | arc each mesh/particle has 2 flags: cast shadows, recieve shadows |
| 17:06.29 | TwoDie | saw some other times some code laying around for unity rts |
| 17:06.39 | ArcanePariah | Ahh, so its like the pathing, where you can set flags on what is allowed and what is not |
| 17:06.40 | Zolden | then dynamical shadow casting happens |
| 17:06.47 | Zolden | based on those flags |
| 17:06.57 | ArcanePariah | Interesting |
| 17:07.37 | TwoDie | not really |
| 17:07.51 | TwoDie | YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED!! |
| 17:08.09 | ArcanePariah | I'm always interested. As the old saying goes "Knowledge is power" |
| 17:08.48 | Zolden | TwoDie code "flappy twod" game |
| 17:09.10 | Zolden | it will help to learn things |
| 17:09.28 | TwoDie | hmm i know only one techno song that uses that phrase.. but a lot of qoutes in that song is from movie or -s |
| 17:10.28 | Dustin|Home | Yeah the normla walk animation has the fucking shadow too |
| 17:10.31 | TwoDie | i will get plan going on what to build, what task i need to learn. to code properly basic features that may be required to develop any game I may have on this fucked mind |
| 17:10.33 | Dustin|Home | how the fuck did bounty get around it |
| 17:10.37 | Dustin|Home | I wonder if he edited the model |
| 17:11.12 | ArcanePariah | Dustin|Home, the only other weird ass solution that would possibly work is to make custom lightinig for the model. By doing so, you may be able to minimize the shadow |
| 17:11.25 | Zolden | i'd just import and export that chainsaw model 4 u, but not home atm |
| 17:11.36 | Zolden | maybe ask twod to do it |
| 17:12.10 | TwoDie | dont ask lazy fuck as me to do that dirty job |
| 17:12.15 | Dustin|Home | lol |
| 17:12.42 | Dustin|Home | Zolden, can you do it for me when you got some time? Its not something I need right away, just would be nice at some point. |
| 17:12.45 | ArcanePariah | lawl, and I thought I was lazy |
| 17:12.47 | Goa | Zolden I read and watch everything on english |
| 17:14.36 | Zolden | Dustin yea, i'll be home at saturday, then will do |
| 17:15.33 | Zolden | Goa naybe u give him one more chance? "Do android dream of electric ship" is pretty cool |
| 17:15.46 | *** join/#sc2mapster Goa_ (~Goa_@91.83.110.56) |
| 17:15.46 | Zolden | sheep |
| 17:16.55 | Dustin|Home | Awesome, thanks man |
| 17:17.10 | Rommper | hmm |
| 17:17.10 | Zolden | very hallucinogenic sometimes |
| 17:17.39 | Rommper | can i give a set effect two search effect? |
| 17:17.45 | ArcanePariah | Yes |
| 17:17.54 | Rommper | hmm then i don't see the problem in my spell |
| 17:18.17 | ArcanePariah | Set effects are simply a way to group effects that you want to run in sequence. |
| 17:18.34 | Goa | Zolden I have ton of books to read, I would rather read the ones I know I will like |
| 17:19.01 | Rommper | i made a spell, it applies a behaviour on the units in an area and damage every summoned unit |
| 17:19.07 | Zolden | u will like this one! |
| 17:19.27 | ArcanePariah | However, do be warned that once the direct effect specified starts running, it will run the next one, so if Set Effect has Effect A and B, and A has Effect C, A will run, then B and C will run somewhat in parallel. |
| 17:19.50 | ArcanePariah | Ok Rommper, why a set of 2 searches? |
| 17:20.06 | Rommper | different targets |
| 17:20.08 | ArcanePariah | Could do 1 search and run a set on each unit found |
| 17:20.43 | ArcanePariah | Still run one search, and if you need to do different things based on the target type, God giveth thee Switch effects :D |
| 17:20.48 | Rommper | i need the apply to every unit |
| 17:20.53 | Rommper | and the damage only to the summoned ones |
| 17:21.28 | ArcanePariah | In which case, have a set of 2 effects, 1 effect runs on every unit, the damage one, placea validator checking if the impact unit is a summoned unit |
| 17:21.43 | Dustin|Home | You can setup a validator on your Damage effect that only applies if the unit is a summon |
| 17:21.50 | Dustin|Home | Would cut down on the amoutn of shit needed |
| 17:21.51 | ArcanePariah | Unit Filter Validator is what you want |
| 17:22.13 | Goa | Zolden I am reading Revalation Space by Alastair Reynolds next |
| 17:22.42 | Goa | I just like too much hardcore space opera |
| 17:22.44 | Ahli | I received a mail from Blizzard asking if I could spread http://youtu.be/d5sSusghhM0 ... >_> I consider it done with this message |
| 17:23.28 | ArcanePariah | I swear to fucking god, regardless of anything else, Blizzard animation/CGI/video guys are gods among men |
| 17:23.38 | Ahli | but more interesting should be this spaceship size comparison image of multiple science fiction stuff: http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/kmjk6wkdvqffr6j104d7.jpg |
| 17:23.39 | ArcanePariah | Have they ever made a bad cinematic? |
| 17:24.01 | ArcanePariah | Usually its a debate of which cinematic tops another one. |
| 17:24.41 | Goa | Ahli did they send it as notice that SC2 can fuck off?:D |
| 17:24.43 | ArcanePariah | Though, for lore reasons, and other stuff, the Wrath of the Lich King trailer is still ridiculously good. |
| 17:24.56 | ArcanePariah | Goa, lol |
| 17:25.01 | Ahli | hots' ones have a bad video quality (huge pixels visible), other than that all are kind of cool that I am aware of... but I don't know any wow stuff... |
| 17:25.11 | Rommper | for me WOD is the best |
| 17:25.26 | ArcanePariah | Yeah, WoD was pretty cool, the nostalgia when Mannaroth died was epic |
| 17:25.34 | ArcanePariah | Love how they did that |
| 17:25.52 | ArcanePariah | Of course, plenty of people watch it and have no idea why that part is awesome |
| 17:25.59 | ArcanePariah | Since they never played Wc3 |
| 17:26.07 | Ahli | wod? wings of derpity? |
| 17:26.27 | ArcanePariah | Warlords of Dreanor |
| 17:26.33 | ArcanePariah | Next WoW xpac |
| 17:26.44 | Rommper | yeah as he stand exactly in the same position and almost die if not for Garrosh was awesomely nostalgic |
| 17:28.46 | Ahli | like solo BC vs a race that has suicide bombing units to destroy BCs or a race that can teleport around units or vs a whole planet with its own army of spaceships... :D WoL doesn't really make sense like that, lol |
| 17:29.58 | *** join/#sc2mapster Frinckles (637dfe58@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.125.254.88) |
| 17:30.17 | Frinckles | Hey, Arcane are you there? |
| 17:30.39 | TwoDie | arcade gaming is daed.. go away |
| 17:31.41 | ArcanePariah | Frinckles, yes, what's up? |
| 17:32.25 | TwoDie | DAED!!!!!!!!!!! |
| 17:32.33 | TwoDie | ARCADE IS DAED!!!!!!!!!! |
| 17:32.48 | ArcanePariah | TwoDie, I care... why? |
| 17:32.51 | Ahli | we are just waiting for heroes funmaps then because of better bnet, maybe... |
| 17:32.53 | TwoDie | WE ARE DAED!!! fucked by blizzard for 3 years!!! jizz |
| 17:33.03 | ArcanePariah | Please define "fucked" |
| 17:33.17 | Frinckles | I finished the WASD system. The problem is, only one of the 3 here choices can use it. I figured it was probably an issue with one of those heroes, but it doesn't appear to be. |
| 17:33.23 | Frinckles | hero* hoices |
| 17:33.27 | Frinckles | choices** ugh |
| 17:34.01 | TwoDie | bend over stand with legs spread and pants down for anyshit that can be easily stuffed into that hole |
| 17:35.03 | ArcanePariah | In which case, if I truly wanted to fuck someone, I would place a grenade in there, so that I do not have to repeat the exercise. |
| 17:35.14 | Frinckles | >_> as for that, I think the next expansion will bring the game back if it's dead after all. |
| 17:35.21 | Frinckles | Either way, I wanna finish my map. |
| 17:35.55 | ArcanePariah | Also, if you truly want to be popular, you need 2 of 3 things: Luck, Money, lack of ethics |
| 17:37.15 | Frinckles | But yeah, I guess it must be an issue with my hero selection dialog but I don't see anything. |
| 17:37.24 | Frinckles | WASD is only working with the first hero. |
| 17:37.46 | Dustin|Home | A movement system shouldnt be dependant on specific units |
| 17:37.49 | ArcanePariah | Frinckles, before I examine that, let me rewrite some stuff for you, so you can see how things can be done in a more... efficient/straightforward/abstract way, that should lead to less bugs. |
| 17:38.36 | ArcanePariah | I will be posting using Peeeq, so you can examine it, without the messiness of trading map files |
| 17:40.50 | ArcanePariah | First, your Picking Race trigger: http://peeeq.de/gui.php?id=3506 |
| 17:48.23 | Frinckles | What kind of variable is the local one? |
| 17:48.30 | Frinckles | I can't find game link |
| 17:50.42 | TwoDie | tits |
| 17:51.30 | *** join/#sc2mapster sc2println (~flo@2a02:810d:1680:242c:f66d:4ff:fe93:2e29) |
| 17:54.07 | ArcanePariah | Game Link is any reference to a data type in data (Actor, Effect, Behavior, etc.) |
| 17:54.19 | ArcanePariah | In this case, we use a Game Link of type Unit |
| 17:54.28 | ArcanePariah | also known as Unit Type |
| 17:54.37 | Rommper | ok i managed to make the apply behaviour work but the summon damage still doesn't work |
| 17:55.31 | ArcanePariah | Ok, paste the effect XML (uses pastee) |
| 18:01.40 | Rommper | https://pastee.org/bn8w5 |
| 18:01.55 | ArcanePariah | Frinckles, if you wish, I can also refine your Race Dialog with User Type and explain how those work and why they are useful |
| 18:02.32 | Frinckles | I wouldn't do that just yet. ^_^ I'm in this horrible area right now where I need to not only lay the ground work out for my game; but also get the most basic screen up and running. |
| 18:02.48 | Frinckles | And by the most basic screen, I mean what we spoke about yesterday. |
| 18:02.51 | ArcanePariah | Rommper, you will want a set for the damage, not place both in the search effect array. |
| 18:03.27 | Frinckles | Some form of screen like this http://mmoatk.com/uploads/Starcraft_Universe_Screenshot_3.jpg where I can display text with a pretty cool background. |
| 18:03.42 | ArcanePariah | Search effects do the following when you specify multiple areas: It searches the first area, and applies the effect specfied. It then runs the 2nd effect but will only look for units NOT found by the previous area. |
| 18:04.02 | Rommper | oh |
| 18:04.05 | ArcanePariah | So in your case, any unit found by the first aoe will not be found by the 2nd |
| 18:04.23 | Rommper | so search->set-> damage and apply |
| 18:04.28 | ArcanePariah | Correct |
| 18:04.51 | Frinckles | The biggest issue I had was figuring out how that specifically is done. Is it one static background that everyone views, but the dialog items a player is clicking are instanced to that player? |
| 18:05.24 | ArcanePariah | Dialog Items are instanced to each player. Let me paste an example of how this works |
| 18:05.42 | ArcanePariah | Well, you already have a working example, where you hide the race dialog |
| 18:05.51 | Frinckles | yeah |
| 18:05.51 | ArcanePariah | You notice you have to specify for which players it is hidden |
| 18:06.02 | ArcanePariah | THe same logic applies to every other dialog item |
| 18:06.17 | Frinckles | I'm just considering how it works with having players render models of 'heroes' |
| 18:06.38 | Frinckles | Can you make unit actors/models dialog features that can be manipulated? (rotated, for example?) |
| 18:07.05 | ArcanePariah | For example, if you were to use Set Dialog item Image, you will notice at the end of it, it also requires you set which players the image will display for |
| 18:07.16 | *** join/#sc2mapster ArcanePariah (~Eric@99-8-167-11.lightspeed.futnca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 18:07.53 | ArcanePariah | Simple. When the player select the dialog item, you determine the player and what they selected, then update all other dialog items (including models/text/whatever) for just that player. |
| 18:08.15 | ArcanePariah | Let us hop on SC2 and I can demonstrate |
| 18:08.20 | Frinckles | okay |
| 18:08.53 | ArcanePariah | I'll be on NA server |
| 18:12.35 | Rommper | thank you Arcane now its work fine |
| 18:14.48 | ArcanePariah | Execellent :D |
| 18:18.55 | *** join/#sc2mapster Bibendus| (Bibendus@ip-80-249-36-63.static.adsl.cheapnet.it) |
| 18:19.55 | TwoDie | he is https://m1.behance.net/rendition/modules/133033627/hd/e790397d2753611b8b40898ad6aa426f.jpg |
| 18:21.59 | TwoDie | aw so cute http://imgur.com/a/EmlTn |
| 18:29.54 | *** join/#sc2mapster IskatuMesk (4645ef99@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.69.239.153) |
| 18:44.50 | TwoDie | that some cool art style with colors staturation https://www.google.lt/search?q=Albion+Online&tbm=isch |
| 18:45.12 | Zolden | :/ |
| 18:46.50 | IskatuMesk | hey look, it's dota 2 |
| 18:47.21 | IskatuMesk | that game seems to be lacking shadows |
| 18:47.30 | Zolden | poopa 3 |
| 18:47.41 | IskatuMesk | I guess for a browser game it's ok... but for an n64 I'd expect more |
| 18:48.41 | IskatuMesk | and finally, a res higher than 640x480. I see shadows, but I also see they forgot to add detail to their textures |
| 18:48.53 | IskatuMesk | those trees... god damn. |
| 18:49.57 | TwoDie | game in action: http://www.twitch.tv/bikeman |
| 18:50.32 | TwoDie | shadows arent very black or dark so isnt notiable of dam existance of shadows |
| 18:50.56 | IskatuMesk | oh god. that really IS ugly as sin |
| 18:51.03 | IskatuMesk | I guess alpha means placeholder assets |
| 18:51.30 | IskatuMesk | black desert, the game he mentioned, looks semi-decent though |
| 18:53.22 | TwoDie | well graphics are real. i doubt that on 3d side anything will changed. |
| 18:53.29 | IskatuMesk | ew. |
| 18:53.33 | IskatuMesk | what a shame |
| 18:53.36 | TwoDie | just guessing in the end |
| 18:53.41 | TwoDie | i just noticed this game |
| 18:54.04 | IskatuMesk | if I wanted to play something from 1999 I'd play something that wasn't a cookie cutter mmo :3 |
| 18:55.05 | TwoDie | alrighty then. so game is really isnt for you then |
| 18:55.07 | Zolden | im thinking about playing a game of civ3 |
| 18:56.18 | Zolden | was delaying this for 3 weeks while workink on my puzzle |
| 18:56.28 | IskatuMesk | will be you be supreme comrade putin |
| 18:56.38 | IskatuMesk | riding bear to victory |
| 19:01.16 | Zolden | bears scary |
| 19:01.32 | Zolden | didnt expect it from a russian? |
| 19:01.51 | IskatuMesk | I thought you tamed them with vodka and hairy chest |
| 19:02.25 | ArcanePariah | Yeah, but russians are too drunk to run :P |
| 19:03.49 | Zolden | the only part of mythological russian reality i'm facing right now is shit freezing cold outside |
| 19:04.08 | Rommper | дайÑе мне пожалÑйÑÑа Ð²Ð¾Ð´ÐºÑ |
| 19:04.11 | IskatuMesk | so jelly |
| 19:04.17 | Rommper | :P |
| 19:04.17 | IskatuMesk | it's still hot and humid here |
| 19:11.21 | TwoDie | i have this week at least full of sunshine with a bit coldness blowing into the faces |
| 19:19.00 | *** join/#sc2mapster Dustin|Work (~Dustin_He@nat-216-240-30-23.netapp.com) |
| 19:33.24 | *** part/#sc2mapster Ahli (~asdaaaaa@ip-109-40-17-96.web.vodafone.de) |
| 19:34.43 | *** join/#sc2mapster Ahli_ (~asdaaaaa@ip-109-40-17-96.web.vodafone.de) |
| 19:42.37 | Ahli_ | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oudJMLpyqjI hots chen+abathur =/ |
| 19:44.04 | ArcanePariah | lawl |
| 19:44.20 | ArcanePariah | Yeah, chen is tanky as hell, need stuns to lock him down |
| 19:44.37 | ArcanePariah | Still prefer Arthas thou, Arthas is borderline unkillable by himself |
| 19:44.38 | Dustin|Work | I haven't played him yet cause he's fucking 15000 coins |
| 19:45.09 | Dustin|Work | Saving my coins for Anubarak |
| 19:45.43 | Ahli_ | 15k gold cost is for 2 weeks for every new hero, after that, the costs are lowered |
| 19:46.11 | Ahli_ | Blizzard applying economy knowledge... |
| 19:51.37 | Rommper | you have access to hots? :O |
| 19:56.53 | Dustin|Work | Yup |
| 19:57.00 | Dustin|Work | Have had since first Alpha waves went out |
| 19:58.01 | Rommper | could you pls open your data with cascview and export out the wizzard minion death model |
| 19:58.10 | Rommper | don't need to convert or anything else |
| 19:58.21 | Rommper | but my version missing his death model |
| 19:58.35 | Rommper | and i use the model as the Conjurer in wc1 |
| 20:22.05 | TwoDie | Q: What are RL parties and how do I get invited to one? A: Play as a healer / tank. Those guys get invited to all the parties. |
| 20:26.16 | TwoDie | stay classy! |
| 20:42.00 | Zolden | :) |
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| 22:21.34 | Kazimir | Hey ArcanePariah, you around? |
| 22:22.32 | Kazimir | I'd like to continue the conversation from yesterday regarding improving pathing calculations. |
| 22:23.27 | Kazimir | It's a pretty huge issue for my map, as I have ~50 enemy units per player on the map at any time, and a huge map to cross. |
| 22:24.01 | Kazimir | the enemy is being given command updates every few seconds, and it's obvious the autopathing is struggling to keep up. |
| 22:45.54 | Dustin|Work | Is it giving the same command each time? |
| 22:46.18 | Dustin|Work | If so, why not store the units last given command, and if it's the same as what you're trying to run, just skip over that operation |
| 22:46.26 | ArcanePariah | Kazimir, one way to aid in this would be to hand draw the pathing mesh of the map |
| 22:49.52 | ArcanePariah | Another somewhat hacky solution would be to increase the radius of every unit, so that far fewer of them an collide at once and they will stay spaced out |
| 22:51.43 | IskatuMesk | I really want to try that starbow behavior sometime |
| 22:52.21 | ArcanePariah | Hmm? |
| 22:59.15 | IskatuMesk | the one that makes units split up in groups by having them move slightly angular |
| 22:59.28 | IskatuMesk | seems like it would help alleviate collision pathing lag |
| 23:02.07 | IskatuMesk | currently that lag is not a big deal in my campaign because the AI lag is so horrendous it supercedes all other performance loss, but in the long-term, it would be an issue |
| 23:07.00 | IskatuMesk | I wonder if Jademus will eventually snap from the AI |
| 23:07.14 | IskatuMesk | I expect a huge bag of spoiled tacos in my mail |
| 23:10.12 | Kazimir | hand draw the mesh, as in marking all cliffs manually? |
| 23:10.27 | ArcanePariah | Yes |
| 23:10.40 | IskatuMesk | doodads, etc |
| 23:10.42 | Kazimir | I was already considering switching from traditional cliffs to faux cliffs using terrain |
| 23:11.08 | Kazimir | Yeah...the doodads part is a problem. The most common barriers on the map are trees. 4.3k of them. |
| 23:11.13 | Kazimir | they are all units. |
| 23:11.38 | IskatuMesk | if sc2 updates all units per tick then yes that would be a problem |
| 23:12.09 | IskatuMesk | might be better to make them collision-less doodads |
| 23:12.12 | IskatuMesk | and then paint their pathing |
| 23:14.00 | Kazimir | They are destructible >.> |
| 23:14.07 | IskatuMesk | oh boy |
| 23:14.10 | Kazimir | cutting down the forests is a major part of the game |
| 23:14.32 | IskatuMesk | I wasn't aware sc2 could handle above 1600 or so units... it seemed to freak out pretty damn fast when we spawned a lot of mustaches |
| 23:14.33 | Kazimir | It's playable (if rough) if you would like to get some perspective on it |
| 23:14.52 | Kazimir | It handles them just fine since I removed the animations from them. |
| 23:15.00 | IskatuMesk | well... I suspect that when the units move it's recalculating everything on the map |
| 23:15.08 | Kazimir | T-T |
| 23:15.12 | IskatuMesk | animations won't cause pathing lag |
| 23:15.20 | Kazimir | It causes clientside lag though |
| 23:15.25 | IskatuMesk | just GPU |
| 23:15.29 | Kazimir | which contributes to overall overhead |
| 23:15.35 | IskatuMesk | it shouldn't be too big of a deal as long as sc2 has culling |
| 23:15.40 | Kazimir | it doesn't... |
| 23:15.43 | IskatuMesk | sc2 can handle some dozens of 110k tri meshes |
| 23:15.44 | IskatuMesk | wat |
| 23:15.56 | IskatuMesk | it doesn't cull off-camera objects? sure it does... that's why beams vanish |
| 23:16.08 | IskatuMesk | ... unless trees have some flag that disables that |
| 23:16.09 | IskatuMesk | oh dear./ |
| 23:16.17 | Kazimir | sc2 doesn't have culling as far as I know. If you put 5000 units on one corner of the map, then turn the camera to face them at first person view, it crashes. |
| 23:16.26 | Kazimir | from across the map |
| 23:16.32 | Kazimir | far past your own visual range |
| 23:16.33 | IskatuMesk | oh. yeah, they're entering the falloff |
| 23:16.49 | IskatuMesk | but it has off-camera culling |
| 23:16.51 | IskatuMesk | that's what I meant |
| 23:16.54 | Kazimir | oh, ok. |
| 23:16.55 | IskatuMesk | is this RTS view or TPS? |
| 23:17.01 | Kazimir | this one is RTS |
| 23:17.15 | Kazimir | I discovered the falloff issue working on a roguelike FPS |
| 23:17.23 | IskatuMesk | they should always be culling off camera then, unless they have some setting to force larger render distance (like the tripod beam) |
| 23:17.35 | Kazimir | Nah, I doubt these have that. |
| 23:17.38 | IskatuMesk | yes... terrain geometry in particular performs horrifically bad in TPS |
| 23:17.50 | Kazimir | anyway, back to the pathing then. |
| 23:18.07 | IskatuMesk | have you tried making a variant of the map without the trees |
| 23:18.13 | IskatuMesk | and seeing if the fps from the pathing is any different |
| 23:18.30 | Kazimir | Not enoug testers. solo doesn't lag except in extreme cases. |
| 23:18.38 | IskatuMesk | hmm |
| 23:18.40 | IskatuMesk | ai placeholders? |
| 23:19.04 | Kazimir | still no good. It's clientside. I don't get FPS lag unless I'm looking directly at it. |
| 23:19.04 | IskatuMesk | sc2 will lag pretty bad just from 100 drones in a pack |
| 23:19.13 | IskatuMesk | ahh... now that' |
| 23:19.15 | IskatuMesk | that is very odd |
| 23:19.24 | IskatuMesk | pathfinding lag will lag regardless of where you look because it's cpu |
| 23:19.27 | Kazimir | the whole thing bogs down in extreme cases, yeah. |
| 23:19.37 | IskatuMesk | custom models? |
| 23:19.53 | Kazimir | just for the buildings so far. |
| 23:19.58 | IskatuMesk | hmm |
| 23:20.11 | IskatuMesk | cloaking shader? |
| 23:20.18 | Kazimir | ? |
| 23:20.24 | IskatuMesk | are they cloaked allied units |
| 23:20.27 | IskatuMesk | or use transparent shadows |
| 23:20.32 | IskatuMesk | or lights of any kind |
| 23:20.39 | IskatuMesk | e.g. the tychus infantry |
| 23:20.42 | IskatuMesk | or mothership |
| 23:20.54 | Kazimir | There is one unit that has opacity turned down to give a cloak-like effect. |
| 23:20.57 | IskatuMesk | sc2 cannot handle lights at all |
| 23:21.01 | Kazimir | but it's just a critter thing. |
| 23:21.02 | IskatuMesk | they perform horribly badly |
| 23:21.06 | Kazimir | no special lights |
| 23:21.09 | IskatuMesk | hmmmm |
| 23:21.16 | IskatuMesk | does it have transparent shadows? |
| 23:21.23 | Kazimir | Not that I know of. I'll check |
| 23:21.23 | IskatuMesk | if you turn down your shader/shadow settings, does the lag go away? |
| 23:21.38 | Kazimir | Oh, no. Not at all. |
| 23:21.45 | IskatuMesk | odd |
| 23:21.54 | Kazimir | this is strictly when large masses of enemy units try to cross the map in a continous stream |
| 23:22.03 | Kazimir | It's friggin huge, and the trees are everywhere. |
| 23:22.07 | IskatuMesk | the thing about pathing is it's always active, regardless if you're watching or not. Units don't just lose calculations, those calculations are necessary for sync |
| 23:22.22 | Kazimir | On that note, it recalculates the pathing of ALL the units every few seconds. |
| 23:22.27 | IskatuMesk | so if you lose fps from looking at them, it's gotta have to do with what you're seeing |
| 23:22.27 | Kazimir | (unstuck loop) |
| 23:22.39 | IskatuMesk | yeah... that will also be crazy performance intensive |
| 23:22.39 | Kazimir | I think those are different issues. |
| 23:22.46 | IskatuMesk | just running bullies every few seconds is performance intensive |
| 23:22.59 | Kazimir | without the loop, the pathing is horrendous T-T |
| 23:23.01 | IskatuMesk | what gets stuck? |
| 23:23.35 | Kazimir | I hit the age-old pathing bug inherent to the engine. Been trying to get around it for 2 years. |
| 23:23.41 | Kazimir | one moment, I'll link my thread on it. |
| 23:24.09 | IskatuMesk | is it the unit limit? |
| 23:24.24 | IskatuMesk | because when you hit the unit limit in sc2 stuff vanishes from the minimap and stops receiving commands |
| 23:24.28 | IskatuMesk | I doubt there's any way past that |
| 23:24.33 | ArcanePariah | I wouldn't call it a bug, more a limitation of the pathfinding algorithm |
| 23:24.41 | Kazimir | http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/development/triggers/54558-persistent-pathing-problem/ |
| 23:24.44 | IskatuMesk | wc3 had that too |
| 23:24.54 | ArcanePariah | Which, pretty much any RTS will have the exact same problem |
| 23:25.05 | ArcanePariah | No one way around it mathematically |
| 23:25.21 | IskatuMesk | have you tried waypoints |
| 23:25.38 | Kazimir | I have indeed. I had a huge waypoint system. |
| 23:25.53 | Kazimir | it helped, but it also massively increased the amount of work needed. |
| 23:26.14 | IskatuMesk | melee works by building waypoints to a region per unit |
| 23:26.18 | IskatuMesk | one reason why it's performance intensive |
| 23:26.26 | Kazimir | my current plan I think will be to remove all sight blocking effects (bushes, cliffs). |
| 23:26.41 | IskatuMesk | can't see your image, can't box select the text... wtf... |
| 23:27.17 | Kazimir | It appears that the image is no longer in my dropbox. |
| 23:27.19 | Kazimir | My apologies. |
| 23:27.34 | IskatuMesk | that might be why haha |
| 23:28.20 | ArcanePariah | Wow, memory lane, Kazmir, your nytemare? I remember us tackling this issue way back when |
| 23:28.37 | IskatuMesk | have you tried using attack waves |
| 23:28.42 | Kazimir | The idea gets across just fine though :-P Any time the entrance to an area is blocked AND the blocker is hidden from view, it is treated as entirely impassible. |
| 23:28.51 | Kazimir | Yeah, I'm Nytemare |
| 23:28.59 | IskatuMesk | ah. yeah, that just make a bit more sense |
| 23:29.03 | IskatuMesk | they probably treat it as an island |
| 23:29.21 | IskatuMesk | that's why the AI drops workers into mineral patches |
| 23:29.49 | Kazimir | I don't understand the attack wave system at all, nor the actual AI |
| 23:29.54 | Kazimir | so no, haven't tried those. |
| 23:30.10 | IskatuMesk | attack wave takes units and assigns them to a mystical group of witchcraft with targettting orders |
| 23:30.12 | Kazimir | I'd prefer them to be SLIGHTLY more intelligent than a stream of enemies TD style >.> |
| 23:30.17 | ArcanePariah | Attack waves, you add unit to them, and then send them. It can get more advanced then that. |
| 23:30.22 | IskatuMesk | for triggers, understanding of the AI is unnecessary, because there is no AI in triggers |
| 23:30.33 | Kazimir | I'm using triggers atm. |
| 23:30.35 | Kazimir | just orders |
| 23:30.38 | ArcanePariah | Well, each attack wave can be given waypoints, rally points and differeing targets |
| 23:30.41 | IskatuMesk | making them more intelligent can be done through tactical AI |
| 23:30.55 | IskatuMesk | but otherwise, yeah, attack waves can be given waypoints and such |
| 23:31.09 | ArcanePariah | IskatuMesk, individually, yes, but in formation, waves are necessary, as are triggers. Plus some of the AI stuff in data has to be enabled to use in triggers |
| 23:31.16 | Kazimir | " Unit - Order Hostile Unit[(Picked player)] to ( Attack targeting (Position of Found Unit[(Picked player)])) (Replace Existing Orders) |
| 23:31.16 | Kazimir | " |
| 23:31.23 | Kazimir | Damnit, should have pastebinned that |
| 23:31.26 | Kazimir | oh well, was just one line |
| 23:31.28 | IskatuMesk | orders are weird |
| 23:31.50 | IskatuMesk | I tried to get orders to work for simple things like spawning units, picking them up in transports, dropping them, then telling them to build stuff |
| 23:31.55 | IskatuMesk | did not work as desired.. |
| 23:32.00 | ArcanePariah | You should (if actually using AI, like a computer player and AI is intialized and all that), and use suggest AI order |
| 23:32.14 | IskatuMesk | anyways |
| 23:32.23 | IskatuMesk | by tactical AI I meant, if you want the units to be smarter than just TD |
| 23:32.37 | IskatuMesk | making a unit smarter is done via tactical AI, which works independently of waves |
| 23:32.55 | IskatuMesk | for something like this I would try attack waves first |
| 23:33.01 | IskatuMesk | and manual orders as a last resort |
| 23:33.03 | ArcanePariah | Yes for the most part, there however is one very important trigger thing that must be done to truly enable some good AI |
| 23:33.28 | ArcanePariah | Namely, you need to configure various effects with AI notify flags, and then in triggers, enable the use of danger maps |
| 23:33.33 | Kazimir | T-T |
| 23:33.37 | IskatuMesk | yeah, that too |
| 23:33.38 | IskatuMesk | that's easy though |
| 23:33.45 | ArcanePariah | Yeah, but so easily overlooked |
| 23:34.00 | IskatuMesk | sometimes they don't work super smart but it's better than nothing |
| 23:34.07 | Kazimir | *whoooosh* |
| 23:34.23 | ArcanePariah | Correct, they evaluate things, like some units will dodge a nuke, but others will run |
| 23:34.30 | ArcanePariah | right through it |
| 23:34.33 | Kazimir | Right now they are being added to a group and being sent to the location of the player's King |
| 23:34.45 | IskatuMesk | I have it for a timed mine... they run from it initially but then back into it and die horribly :D |
| 23:35.06 | IskatuMesk | yeah. I'd definitely try attack waves |
| 23:35.19 | IskatuMesk | but if an area is blocked off with units they treat it as an island |
| 23:35.39 | IskatuMesk | I very commonly observe the AI dropping workers into my big mineral patches and then picking them up after they mine |
| 23:35.45 | Kazimir | That's the biggest problem atm. Walling up your base is a major mechanicc. |
| 23:36.12 | IskatuMesk | time for.. tree transports |
| 23:36.28 | IskatuMesk | if anything is on ground accessible they prioritize that before island units |
| 23:36.29 | IskatuMesk | AFAIK |
| 23:36.38 | IskatuMesk | that seems to be the behavior the melee AI employs, anyways. |
| 23:36.50 | IskatuMesk | so, your wall would get prioritized |
| 23:37.04 | ArcanePariah | Cept the wall is on the higher ground, which they can't see |
| 23:37.05 | IskatuMesk | so, they should still find you |
| 23:37.11 | Kazimir | So removing all forms of sight blocking should take care of it. |
| 23:37.15 | IskatuMesk | well, they'd go to the ramp |
| 23:37.19 | Kazimir | No bushes, no ramps. |
| 23:37.26 | Kazimir | I'll use faux-cliffs |
| 23:37.31 | IskatuMesk | attack waves can definitely find ramps |
| 23:37.44 | Kazimir | Time to rework a metric fuckton of terrain. |
| 23:37.49 | Kazimir | Probably for the best anyway |
| 23:37.52 | IskatuMesk | try attack waves first |
| 23:37.55 | Kazimir | cliff levels are horribly restricting. |
| 23:38.05 | Kazimir | How do I use attack waves? |
| 23:38.11 | ArcanePariah | That would work. The other thing you could do, as a VERY hacky workaround, is to make anything that is a blocker, emit a damage aura, that does 0 damage, which will trigger the attack reveal |
| 23:38.13 | IskatuMesk | sec |
| 23:38.28 | IskatuMesk | are your units just being spawned |
| 23:38.39 | Kazimir | yeah. No build |
| 23:38.41 | Kazimir | just spawns |
| 23:38.58 | ArcanePariah | Gimme a sec |
| 23:39.08 | ArcanePariah | https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1RUGSAC_MCGdi1VWUYzTDVnelE/edit?usp=sharing |
| 23:39.13 | ArcanePariah | An example map |
| 23:39.14 | Kazimir | (although there IS an AI version of the player on the map. I haven't decided if it should actually build anything though) |
| 23:39.20 | ArcanePariah | that shows much of how the AI works |
| 23:39.57 | IskatuMesk | my big ol zerg map has tons of winding anuses and corridors everywhere and both melee and triggered waves could navigate it. The melee takes way longer because it has to waypoint every individual unit, though. |
| 23:40.47 | Kazimir | If I send my map to you, can you look at my triggers? Jademus isn't here to jump down my throat this time, so I feel safe linking it >.> |
| 23:40.53 | IskatuMesk | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:40.56 | Kazimir | Or is that asking too much? |
| 23:41.03 | Dustin|Work | puts on his throat jumping hat |
| 23:41.07 | IskatuMesk | I am actually incredibly incompetent at everything trigger related |
| 23:41.22 | IskatuMesk | I have only messed with attack waves and everything you are showing is way more advanced than what I do haha |
| 23:41.22 | Kazimir | Goddamnit Dustin. |
| 23:41.25 | Dustin|Work | hehe |
| 23:41.32 | IskatuMesk | maybe arc could figure it out though |
| 23:41.52 | ArcanePariah | Dustin|Work, you evil man, get back to work :P |
| 23:41.53 | IskatuMesk | keep in mind though |
| 23:42.00 | Dustin|Work | Paste the code on peeq, Im at work and cant really open the editor without going over a vpn right now |
| 23:42.03 | IskatuMesk | the attack wave triggers only work on specific "difficulties" |
| 23:42.06 | ArcanePariah | Kazimir, first, look at the example map I shared |
| 23:42.11 | Kazimir | looking |
| 23:42.15 | Dustin|Work | Im all caught up on my work, and no phone calls atm :D |
| 23:42.38 | ArcanePariah | Ahh yes |
| 23:43.44 | ArcanePariah | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8QjArjcjbQ |
| 23:43.49 | IskatuMesk | the main reason I don't use attack wave triggers is because of no defending |
| 23:44.10 | Kazimir | No defending needed in this |
| 23:44.11 | ArcanePariah | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRGljemfwUE |
| 23:44.12 | Kazimir | so all good |
| 23:44.20 | ArcanePariah | Those look familiar Dustin|Work ? |
| 23:44.21 | ArcanePariah | :D |
| 23:44.54 | Dustin|Work | Hahah I love the Website is down |
| 23:45.01 | Dustin|Work | "I rebooted it 3 times like you told me" |
| 23:45.18 | ArcanePariah | The sad shit is how fucking real this is |
| 23:45.28 | ArcanePariah | And sadly it never gets old |
| 23:45.32 | ArcanePariah | Some shit never changes |
| 23:45.35 | Dustin|Work | "Are...are your desktop icons setup in the form of a dick?" |
| 23:45.37 | Dustin|Work | Haha ya |
| 23:46.39 | ArcanePariah | Arrange by penis |
| 23:46.46 | ArcanePariah | That shit made me lose it |
| 23:46.55 | ArcanePariah | Zolden would love that |
| 23:48.33 | ArcanePariah | And the part where he deletes the guy email |
| 23:48.44 | Dustin|Work | lmao yesss |
| 23:48.44 | IskatuMesk | this zerg map will be so retarded once the AI is fixed |
| 23:48.45 | Kazimir | ArcanePariah, why do only some of the zerglings target the marine? |
| 23:49.02 | IskatuMesk | soo many infestors and vipers just yanking and aidsing everything |
| 23:49.14 | Kazimir | Is it because they are going to waypoints instead? |
| 23:49.25 | ArcanePariah | Yes |
| 23:49.32 | Kazimir | That's awkward. |
| 23:49.42 | ArcanePariah | If you look at the code, you see I add 4 waypoints |
| 23:49.45 | Kazimir | I see |
| 23:50.00 | ArcanePariah | The idea being, the zergling spread out and thus are immune to aoe fire |
| 23:50.01 | Kazimir | spawn, waypoints, send |
| 23:50.04 | Kazimir | repeat x10 |
| 23:50.08 | ArcanePariah | Waypoints are optional |
| 23:50.19 | IskatuMesk | I usually just make the AI target a player |
| 23:50.21 | IskatuMesk | and they find their own way |
| 23:50.26 | Kazimir | you can do that? |
| 23:50.28 | Kazimir | o.o |
| 23:50.31 | IskatuMesk | yes |
| 23:50.40 | ArcanePariah | Yes, the wave target can be set to MANYthings |
| 23:50.43 | IskatuMesk | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:50.44 | Kazimir | I know you can target "units owned by player" |
| 23:51.00 | ArcanePariah | It can be set to player, player group, unit group, region, point, unit |
| 23:51.57 | Kazimir | What I'm aiming for is for them to be hostile, attack the general direction of the player's base(s), and spread out relatively equal to the amount of units+buildings the player has in each location |
| 23:52.11 | Kazimir | with the overall goal of prioritizing the King |
| 23:52.16 | IskatuMesk | spreading out will be a bit more problematic |
| 23:52.41 | Kazimir | The splitting is lower priority, mostly to prevent exploiting the wave ai |
| 23:52.43 | IskatuMesk | in my case they tend to prioritize whatever is closest, I am not actually sure if sc2 supports randomizing targets like bw does. It probably does, but in a much more annoying way to trigger |
| 23:53.07 | IskatuMesk | if you have multiple triggers, you could have the wave randomize players to target between waves |
| 23:53.10 | IskatuMesk | multiple players* |
| 23:53.21 | Kazimir | I don't want the player able to stick his king in a heavily fortified location, then build a kingdom far away from there. |
| 23:53.30 | IskatuMesk | if the player bases are static, you can randomize waypoints to go to |
| 23:53.46 | Kazimir | Player bases are semi-permanent. |
| 23:53.58 | Kazimir | they tend to stretch a lot, and outposts are common |
| 23:53.58 | IskatuMesk | does the map have transports |
| 23:54.01 | Kazimir | Nope. |
| 23:54.05 | IskatuMesk | because you can do really cheeky shit with AI and transports |
| 23:54.06 | IskatuMesk | aw, too bad |
| 23:54.09 | ArcanePariah | You could find the position of the king and and the position of their base and if they far apart enough, attack one or the other |
| 23:54.31 | Kazimir | I don't want to drop the entire force of an enemy wave on a random outpost though |
| 23:54.38 | Kazimir | that'd be dickish and impossible to balance |
| 23:54.48 | IskatuMesk | once my AI works I will configure them to doom drop the hell out of you at random points. They did that with the triggered variants, and it was really silly |
| 23:54.55 | Kazimir | Wait...I have an idea. |
| 23:55.09 | Kazimir | What if each unit is sent after a random unit/building? |
| 23:55.10 | IskatuMesk | suddenly, like 10 hercules filled with heavy tanks and goliaths just stampeding to your CC |
| 23:55.18 | ArcanePariah | That is also possible |
| 23:55.20 | Kazimir | so they automatically split according to density |
| 23:55.27 | IskatuMesk | sounds performance intensive... not sure if the attack waves have some thread limit or anything |
| 23:55.29 | Kazimir | and just give the king a really high attack priority |
| 23:55.47 | ArcanePariah | What you can do is get the group of building units of player X, and pick one at random as the attack target for a given wave |
| 23:55.56 | Kazimir | shouldn't be any worse than the attack trigger Arcane just sent me |
| 23:56.07 | Kazimir | just changing the target to a random unit instead of a specific one |
| 23:56.45 | IskatuMesk | now, dickish is what we're doing with casters |
| 23:56.46 | IskatuMesk | :D |
| 23:56.57 | IskatuMesk | and the bunker rushes :D:D |
| 23:57.08 | Kazimir | (In case it isn't clear yet, I'm going for a very organic style of enemy attack. Brainless, but not swarming blindly) |
| 23:57.13 | IskatuMesk | the first thing that happens in the campaign is you get an 8-bunker rush in your base |
| 23:57.25 | IskatuMesk | about 2ish minutes in |
| 23:57.34 | Kazimir | That's...evil. |
| 23:57.43 | IskatuMesk | that map is considered a tutorial |
| 23:57.44 | IskatuMesk | :D |
| 23:58.00 | IskatuMesk | I tutor in the art of suffering |
| 23:58.12 | Kazimir | Oh good. I study at the altar of masochism. |
| 23:58.19 | Kazimir | If I'm not losing, I'm usually bored. |
| 23:58.34 | Kazimir | I'm making this game for me more than anything else. |
| 23:59.03 | IskatuMesk | my projects are all private. I have an audience of about two dozen who would be eligable to play |
| 23:59.19 | Kazimir | Oddly enough, I also love building "perfect" defenses. |
| 23:59.23 | IskatuMesk | but yeah, mostly for oneself |
| 23:59.30 | IskatuMesk | brb |
