| 00:33.22 | IskatuMesk | butter |
| 01:17.50 | *** join/#sc2mapster ArcanePariah (~yaaic@166.170.50.12) |
| 01:18.12 | ArcanePariah | Yoink |
| 01:18.30 | ArcanePariah | Why is there so little time in a day? |
| 01:21.03 | Dustin|Work | Cause we lumped up days too short |
| 01:21.12 | Dustin|Work | Damn our sense of time |
| 01:21.38 | ArcanePariah | Yep :( |
| 01:22.58 | ArcanePariah | Ughh, if there was one drawback to my internship, it was the commute. |
| 01:23.52 | ArcanePariah | So much time wasted. Although I better appreciate the limited free time I have. |
| 01:24.40 | ArcanePariah | Anyhow... how's work Dustin? |
| 01:26.36 | Dustin|Work | Lame, nothing but crappy cases today |
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| 02:10.26 | Dustin|Work | fucking ssl |
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| 08:19.25 | *** topic/#sc2mapster is http://sc2mapster.com | http://wiki.sc2mapster.com | sc2mapster bnet2 channel | WCS Partnership for eSports g0g0! | We want your broken maps! http://bit.ly/aU9AgC | This channel is logged, via purl |
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| 14:19.25 | EntityEnigma | is it possible to attach a turret to a model that isnt a native turret user? |
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| 15:08.02 | Ashamed | AhhhHHhHhHhhH |
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| 16:32.19 | *** join/#sc2mapster turtles1 (~dave3@d27-99-21-105.bla802.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 16:36.14 | turtles1 | A few questions. Thinking about creating my own "unit" data type so that I can have full access and control over things like it's height, speed, acceleration etc and so I can calculate and handle unit collission in ways which are not supported by the game engine |
| 16:37.35 | turtles1 | Is there a way to move models around on the map with interpolation between points so that the movement looks seamless? |
| 16:38.05 | turtles1 | and is there a way to have the models z position (height) be entirely independent of the terrain height? |
| 16:38.59 | A1win | at least units can be set to ignore terrain height, I'd suspect same is true for actors |
| 16:39.13 | A1win | probably an actor message that turns terrain height on/off |
| 16:40.38 | *** join/#sc2mapster Ahli (~asdaaaaa@ip-2-206-120-179.web.vodafone.de) |
| 16:40.59 | Ahli | evening, does anyone know how renee did http://www.sc2mapster.com/media/attachments/21/288/image028.jpg with gax? |
| 16:44.20 | turtles1 | A1win, well yes, there are actor messages for setting (x,y,z) position which sound like they ignore terrain |
| 16:44.44 | A1win | I mean a setting that turns terrain height on/off, like for units |
| 16:44.48 | A1win | "ignore terrain height" in unit flags |
| 16:45.16 | turtles1 | but just updating the position each time will cause the actor to vissually jump between locations |
| 16:45.23 | turtles1 | won't look very good |
| 16:46.38 | turtles1 | ahhh. do I want a mover actor message? |
| 16:46.57 | turtles1 | ever used those? |
| 16:46.59 | A1win | possibly |
| 16:47.05 | A1win | yeah, you can move actors like you can move units |
| 16:47.25 | A1win | though in a bit more complicated way, needs more than one message |
| 16:47.39 | A1win | can't remember everything that's involved |
| 16:47.59 | A1win | and the actor needs a mover in data |
| 16:48.29 | A1win | I think it was like you set it the start position in one message, where to move in another message, and then do "mover move" message after those |
| 16:48.50 | A1win | mmh or maybe not start position |
| 16:49.40 | A1win | I think I made it so that at every script engine tick I teleport the actor to where it's supposed to be and tell it to move to the next position with mover, so that way it stays in sync for sure (though I don't know if that's really necessary) |
| 16:50.01 | A1win | probably not since I think actor positions are synced |
| 16:50.07 | A1win | or are they... |
| 16:55.25 | Ahli | well, can they contain random, unsynced elements? |
| 16:55.56 | turtles1 | What do you mean in that the actor has to have a mover? How would you link them together? looking in the data module movers are linked to units |
| 16:56.15 | A1win | should be able to link it to an actor too |
| 16:56.39 | A1win | somehow... |
| 16:56.46 | A1win | I've done it, just can't remember details :< |
| 16:56.59 | turtles1 | no worries |
| 16:57.41 | turtles1 | I could just use units with no collision and terrain height disabled instead of actors |
| 16:58.01 | A1win | that would probably make your life a lot easier |
| 16:58.06 | turtles1 | but seems a waste using units just so I can move a model around the map |
| 16:58.10 | A1win | but heavier on performance |
| 16:58.53 | A1win | if you disable collisions from units, though, their pathfinding won't cost anything, which is one of the major reasons why units are so performance intensive |
| 16:59.13 | A1win | but not the only reason, so they are still expensive |
| 16:59.17 | turtles1 | oh, cool |
| 16:59.53 | A1win | I use units for projectiles in Mad Space and there are hundreds of them, and it still runs fine |
| 17:00.21 | A1win | but if you need thousands, it might become a problem |
| 17:00.35 | A1win | (or have other expensive stuff in the map) |
| 17:01.14 | turtles1 | unit collision will be turned off on all of them |
| 17:01.30 | turtles1 | the expensive part will be implementing my own unit collision algorithms |
| 17:01.41 | turtles1 | but hopefully I can do that intelligently |
| 17:01.42 | A1win | mm, I did that too :x |
| 17:01.49 | A1win | I have bounces and shit |
| 17:01.58 | turtles1 | :) |
| 17:02.15 | A1win | but only 1-on-1 collisions, so when multiple units are colliding, they become kind of jittery |
| 17:03.35 | turtles1 | yeah, I've thought of a "cheating" way to work with collisions so that it can handle multiple collisions |
| 17:03.47 | turtles1 | hopefully won't be too noticable |
| 17:03.47 | *** join/#sc2mapster sc2println (~flo@2a02:810d:1680:242c:f66d:4ff:fe93:2e29) |
| 17:04.57 | turtles1 | and if it is I'll just dress it up as a feature and tell people "working as intended" :P |
| 17:05.02 | A1win | by 1-on-1 I mean a one-pass collision system, so that if unit A collides with B and C, it first handles A-B, then A-C, and then if that collision between A and C made A collide with B again, that collision isn't handled until the next tick |
| 17:05.52 | A1win | so it isn't really noticable since ticks are rather fast |
| 17:09.23 | turtles1 | Most of the objects will be static with only a few moving so multiple collisions won't happen often |
| 17:10.01 | turtles1 | also means I can split the map up into sections to make collision detection much faster. Did you go down that path? |
| 17:10.10 | A1win | mm just need to make sure it can't be abused by cornering on object and hugging it with others and make it go through walls or whatever |
| 17:10.46 | A1win | no, I use "units in region (circle around unit)" native which is pretty fast way to get units that are close to another unit |
| 17:10.57 | A1win | by fast I mean cheap |
| 17:11.10 | A1win | since it's a native function |
| 17:11.40 | turtles1 | does native mean fast though? |
| 17:11.41 | A1win | though I suppose a grid would be even faster |
| 17:12.03 | A1win | well, faster than script ;p |
| 17:12.13 | A1win | it shouldn't become a bottleneck I mean |
| 17:12.27 | turtles1 | wasn't sure how it was implemented, I always figured "units in region" was equivalent of looking at each unit on the map and figuring out which were in the region |
| 17:13.12 | turtles1 | behind the scenes that is |
| 17:14.05 | A1win | well you can see what takes the most time with the debugger |
| 17:14.11 | A1win | so test it |
| 17:14.41 | turtles1 | true. Anyway thanks for help and experience |
| 17:14.56 | turtles1 | good to know it can be done without looking like a laggy crapfest |
| 17:15.04 | A1win | nps |
| 17:15.07 | Ahli | damned, I don't know how renee did that: http://www.sc2mapster.com/media/attachments/21/288/image028.jpg :< well, I guess I need real units... I don't even know if that will show attachments, too... |
| 17:16.40 | turtles1 | what part am I looking at? the battlecruiser in the bottom left is a mirror of the one on main screen? |
| 17:22.07 | Ahli | http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/resources/project-workplace/27296-gax3-star-craft-ii-editor-enchant-mod-mod-download/ yes |
| 17:24.23 | Ahli | sends renee a PM begging for a demonstration map |
| 17:25.14 | *** join/#sc2mapster Delphinium (jifengxian@60.166.107.96) |
| 17:25.39 | Ahli | also, I like my sketches http://i.snag.gy/Pl3mE.jpg |
| 17:28.31 | Delphinium | http://puu.sh/b0BJV/1b0de243cf.gif |
| 17:28.55 | Delphinium | Nanakey's new showcase on "Dustin" |
| 17:33.12 | Ahli | cool |
| 17:34.38 | Delphinium | Thanks~ |
| 17:35.05 | Delphinium | http://puu.sh/b0CXv/8c1ffddf54.jpg |
| 17:35.13 | Delphinium | She is here 0.0 |
| 17:36.58 | Delphinium | http://puu.sh/b0D6k/11bc3bac95.jpg |
| 17:41.48 | Arcane|Work | Ahli: What are you trying to do again? |
| 17:43.55 | Ahli | I want to create a cool lobby for diablo, so I can add a difficulty slider into it and allow players to form a team with proper hero choices. I would like to display the heroes inside it. So, I tried to recreate what renee did here: http://www.sc2mapster.com/media/attachments/21/288/image028.jpg |
| 17:45.22 | Ahli | more info here, scroll down: http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/resources/project-workplace/27296-gax3-star-craft-ii-editor-enchant-mod-mod-download/?post=5 |
| 17:45.53 | Ahli | but I don't know how to link/duplicate the special portrait element with the unit |
| 17:48.30 | Arcane|Work | Well portraits are just a special UI element... soo... probably accessing the underlying UI thing? Since portrait also has an actor, you are basically telling the portrait to use the same actor as the real game unit actor. |
| 17:49.03 | Ahli | my question is: how to tell it to do that :D |
| 17:50.10 | turtles1 | Why not just have a portrait using the same model? |
| 17:50.55 | Ahli | because I hope that it is possible to use attachments, etc, too |
| 17:51.07 | *** join/#sc2mapster Thenarden (~Miranda@HSI-KBW-078-043-219-250.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de) |
| 17:57.03 | Arcane|Work | Well, reading Renees notes, states that it is a portrait, but with added functionality. So it suggest that the portrait control is altered in some way. What I THINK is happening is there is a portrait, that serves as a container, but within that portrait, a model frame has been placed, which permits any model being used, as well as arbitrary camera control, since the model frame has a field to control the camera position of the frame. |
| 17:57.53 | Arcane|Work | So you can invoke portrait stuff, which gets propagated down to the model frame, but since the model frame has its own camera controls unrelated to the model, permits the freedom of camera action indicated. |
| 17:59.48 | Arcane|Work | Also, I know s/he has not updated it, but much of the stuff in that mod has been incorporated into the main editor, so I think we need to evaluate what GAX3 actually now does. Things like phasing and any ability are all now present in the main editor. |
| 18:00.20 | Ahli | phasing only for doodads, afaIk |
| 18:01.52 | Arcane|Work | Oh, the filter actor messages don't work for unit actors? |
| 18:03.34 | A1win | don't think they do |
| 18:04.15 | Arcane|Work | Interesting |
| 18:07.01 | Arcane|Work | I really appreciate that Renee made that, I think one of the biggest things overlooked my the mod community is the need for tooling. I guess (since it isn't exactly sexy or public facing) no one wanted to take the time to make life easier for themself and other mapmakers. Like, it doesn't appear any good dependencies were made with a lot of default stuff created, or base objects that people could use. |
| 18:08.21 | Arcane|Work | Something I don't get it. From my understanding, the official Sc1 editor sucked really bad, and people wrote their own to compensate. WC3 was improved, but not much better and people still wrote their own trigger tooling. Why no one did the same for SC2? |
| 18:09.15 | Arcane|Work | Like, since the data is entirely XML, I don't see why no one bothered to write a tool to aid in developing units, like something that would write out canned entries necessary to build a generic unit. |
| 18:09.27 | Ahli | publishing? bnet UI demotivation? |
| 18:09.52 | Ahli | we have no way to integrate that into the editor =/ |
| 18:09.56 | Arcane|Work | I guess... what was the original limit on dependencies? |
| 18:10.02 | Arcane|Work | Like 10 files total? |
| 18:10.09 | Ahli | 4 per file |
| 18:10.39 | Arcane|Work | So each map could have up to 4 custom deps, and you were allowed a total of how many published files? 10? |
| 18:11.20 | Ahli | at the beginning 10, now 20 |
| 18:11.33 | Arcane|Work | And yeah, you can't directly integrate it into the editor, but you certainly could make a standalone tool to inject the stuff into the map code. |
| 18:13.11 | Arcane|Work | It's funny and sad, it appears appearances matter more then functionality. Explains a lot. Anyhow, you said yesterday, the arcade will remain separate, and editor will not be out for a while. Any other juicy or not so juicy pieces of info? |
| 18:13.49 | turtles1 | There have been a few attempts at code repositories |
| 18:14.06 | turtles1 | I don't know how long they've lasted or how well known they have been |
| 18:14.46 | turtles1 | people implementing things like trees, containers like queues, searching algorithms etcetc |
| 18:14.49 | Arcane|Work | Yeah... and that's the other strange part, SC2 is very friendly in terms of being able to distribute code, since you have dependencies, and also the capability to save the map in unpacked form. |
| 18:15.13 | Ahli | kaeo milker kind of explained how matchmaking works |
| 18:15.39 | Arcane|Work | Making it usable with standard version control systems, and like any standard shop, you take the build and rebuild into a binary (sc2map) for publishing. |
| 18:15.43 | JademusSreg | =D |
| 18:16.17 | Arcane|Work | And of course, this talk gives JademusSreg a... variety of positive emotions and draws him here. |
| 18:16.21 | Arcane|Work | :D |
| 18:16.35 | Ahli | jade, look at what I wrote half an hour ago and help me ;) |
| 18:17.38 | Arcane|Work | I wonder, how many people in China still do SC2 modding. Obviously Renee and Delph, but they are in their own world so to speak. |
| 18:18.31 | JademusSreg | Used to be quite a lot, last time I checked the chinese SC2 modding forums. |
| 18:19.11 | JademusSreg | Ahli, I don't see anything special about a portrait interface element. |
| 18:19.30 | Ahli | it reflects what a real unit is doing |
| 18:20.00 | Arcane|Work | ^ |
| 18:20.17 | Arcane|Work | I speculated that it is portrait, serving as container for a unitmodel frame |
| 18:20.35 | Arcane|Work | Or some other form of encapsualtion of UI elementes |
| 18:22.24 | JademusSreg | Sounds likely. I've made frames before which similarly displayed the actor, though updating for selection would likely involve code. |
| 18:22.44 | Arcane|Work | Mmhmm |
| 18:23.14 | JademusSreg | Portrait and cutscene frames render another scene entirely, they have their own actor scene context and such. |
| 18:23.46 | Arcane|Work | Correct. Portrait uses the models camera, but a model frame has its own user defined camera. |
| 18:24.11 | JademusSreg | Depending on how much it responded to the state of the given unit in game, we'd know with certainty how it worked. Like if it was fungal'd and it appeared in the window, that would indicate the same actor in both scenes. |
| 18:24.47 | Ahli | since the rocker actor works, I assume it renders the same scope |
| 18:25.16 | JademusSreg | Dialog controls have a frame for this, which displays a given unit, or actor, or model, stuff like that. |
| 18:25.18 | Arcane|Work | Though... wait.. IIRC, the Unit Actor has a field to define the actor used in Portraits, and also a field to define the actor used in the Glossary, so maybe somehow the mod is exploiting that relationship? |
| 18:26.09 | Arcane|Work | Maybe some weird game of setting the main actor of the portrait to the main of the unit actor? |
| 18:26.19 | Arcane|Work | Specifically the ::Main reference? |
| 18:26.33 | JademusSreg | Would be fun to test. =D |
| 18:26.58 | Arcane|Work | References suggest one can do a form of indirection with actors, with several "actors" holding a host reference to the same actor. |
| 18:27.45 | Arcane|Work | If I had to guess REALLY wildly, the portrait actor has been set to be somehow in the scope of the unit actor via some reference. |
| 18:27.59 | JademusSreg | The most efficient solution is that which takes a unit's actor and simply displays it in another frame/scene, so it makes sense that this is what is being done. |
| 18:28.12 | Arcane|Work | And thus would receive all messages from that scope. |
| 18:28.41 | JademusSreg | Which is also to say it wouldn't be worth showing off if it weren't optimal, and were instead a bunch of coded junk. |
| 18:29.19 | Arcane|Work | My best guess, its a single line of code, set the portrait actor to the ::Main reference of the Unit actor. |
| 18:30.44 | Arcane|Work | Meanwhile, been reading up on lambdas in Java, quite a nice trick/feature |
| 18:31.04 | Arcane|Work | I think grim001 studied them a while back as well |
| 18:31.40 | Arcane|Work | Sadly, for my internship, I was stuck with an ancient JVM, so I don't even get generics I think :( |
| 18:32.04 | Ahli | http://hastebin.com/gimuwuduqu.vbs renee's code |
| 18:33.42 | Arcane|Work | Yep |
| 18:33.44 | Arcane|Work | Reference games |
| 18:34.53 | JademusSreg | Erp, brb |
| 18:47.43 | JademusSreg | Haha, that's so funny/ |
| 18:48.19 | JademusSreg | Not optimal, but fine for users. |
| 18:51.05 | Ahli | fine for users is fine for me |
| 18:53.27 | Arcane|Work | My impression is that this is the key bit of code: ActorRefSet(a,"::Host",sp); |
| 18:54.54 | Arcane|Work | Sets the model host actor to the portrait spin actor, which earlier had its scope set to the portrait scope. |
| 18:55.28 | Arcane|Work | IIRC, unless you specify otherwise, messages sent to actors are sent to all actors in the containing scope, yes? |
| 18:55.37 | JademusSreg | Would be more efficient to make a custom UI layout frame which disables the spinny flag. |
| 18:55.41 | JademusSreg | =D |
| 18:55.58 | Arcane|Work | Well yeah, isn't that an option in the UI frame for models? |
| 18:56.03 | Arcane|Work | At least I remember it was |
| 18:56.55 | Arcane|Work | Though this approach is probably better for models with attachments (I too have been actually examing how to solve this, since I'm also attempting something similar as Ahli for NOTD 2) |
| 19:07.03 | *** join/#sc2mapster mille25 (5de6f0b4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.230.240.180) |
| 19:07.35 | Ahli | actor a=GAx3_ActorFromGlossary(PortraitLastCreated()); why doesn't it like me |
| 19:08.11 | mille25 | ? |
| 19:09.37 | Ahli | it does not compile: actor a=GAx3_ActorFromGlossary(0); |
| 19:10.00 | Ahli | actor GAx3_ActorFromGlossary(int p){...} is the function I want to use |
| 19:10.08 | mille25 | which error? |
| 19:10.49 | *** join/#sc2mapster RipperRoo (~RipperRoo@pC19F76D4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:10.51 | Ahli | error parsing function line |
| 19:11.22 | Ahli | possibly invalid variable name/function call or missing } at the end of function. |
| 19:11.45 | mille25 | i need to see the whole context then. |
| 19:13.58 | Ahli | http://hastebin.com/ecakizobid.coffee |
| 19:14.05 | mille25 | afk for 5ish minutes |
| 19:14.07 | mille25 | will check soon |
| 19:14.24 | mille25 | actually i see it already |
| 19:14.32 | mille25 | all variables need to be initialized at the beginning of the function |
| 19:14.42 | mille25 | so create a new actor and then use lv_a in script to reference it. |
| 19:20.54 | mille25 | back |
| 19:21.16 | mille25 | to elaborate a bit more: in galaxy all variables need to be declared at the beginning of a block |
| 19:21.27 | Ahli | yhea, I got it |
| 19:21.28 | mille25 | you cant introduce new variables somewhere |
| 19:21.43 | Ahli | made galaxy code that compiled |
| 19:21.51 | mille25 | is proud! |
| 19:22.00 | JademusSreg | =D |
| 19:22.02 | mille25 | so yeah... galaxy always holds some unpleasant surprises :D |
| 19:22.28 | Ahli | I'm just blindly setting a reference and look what happens |
| 19:22.54 | Ahli | nothing happened... kk |
| 19:23.21 | mille25 | maybe this will make you happier though: a couple days ago i searched an error for 3 hours, but didnt manage to find any mistakes in the code. a model simply didnt show up in multiplayer tests. |
| 19:23.34 | mille25 | well... turned out the new models mod was simply not uploaded, and therefore the model didnt exist. |
| 19:23.42 | *** join/#sc2mapster Dustin|Work (~Dustin_He@nat-216-240-30-23.netapp.com) |
| 19:23.55 | Ahli | ;D |
| 19:24.21 | mille25 | (in that very case, we were not able to see the default shapeSphere model either which gets created by default) |
| 19:24.50 | *** join/#sc2mapster pirate__ (4c0aa8c7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.10.168.199) |
| 19:25.57 | mille25 | hi Grum_ |
| 19:25.58 | mille25 | err |
| 19:26.00 | mille25 | greybeard: |
| 19:26.01 | mille25 | :D |
| 19:26.12 | mille25 | irc owned me. |
| 19:26.47 | greybeard | yar? |
| 19:28.36 | greybeard | whats up everyone |
| 19:29.27 | Ahli | trying to figure out how renee did: http://www.sc2mapster.com/media/attachments/21/288/image028.jpg |
| 19:29.51 | Ahli | portrait thing showing unit and staying synced |
| 19:30.06 | Ahli | http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/resources/project-workplace/27296-gax3-star-craft-ii-editor-enchant-mod-mod-download/ scroll downwards for more info |
| 19:30.39 | Ahli | renee's code for that special portrait thing he created: http://hastebin.com/gimuwuduqu.vbs |
| 19:31.27 | mille25 | considering its renee, its probably some sort of actor black magic. |
| 19:31.30 | Ahli | and for amusement, my sketch skills to plan stuff: http://i.snag.gy/Pl3mE.jpg |
| 19:31.50 | Dustin|Work | helloo |
| 19:31.54 | mille25 | is that the new, refined loading screen? :D |
| 19:32.11 | Ahli | that's a snapshot of a more cleaned up first screen inside the map |
| 19:32.28 | mille25 | looks pretty clean indeed. :P |
| 19:34.26 | Ahli | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4479839/d1lobbysketch.png is the full thing |
| 19:34.57 | mille25 | wow ... and i though my mockups sucked. :D |
| 19:35.30 | A1win | don't you mock up the mockup |
| 19:35.50 | mille25 | hm... might consider that for the future. |
| 19:35.54 | *** join/#sc2mapster EntityEnigma (629696b2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.150.150.178) |
| 19:36.13 | A1win | err, -up |
| 19:36.22 | EntityEnigma | is there anyone who would be able to help me with some actor issues? |
| 19:36.32 | A1win | that was uh.. a mock-up of a joke, pay no attention |
| 19:36.35 | greybeard | I do all my mockups by hand |
| 19:36.36 | A1win | *saved* |
| 19:36.51 | greybeard | **what kind of monster doesn't do mockups with pen and paper |
| 19:37.13 | EntityEnigma | having issues with turrets and dont have enough experience to be able to recognize the sorce of the problem |
| 19:39.59 | EntityEnigma | what allows weapons like the diamond backs rail gun to shoot on the run? |
| 19:40.20 | greybeard | a weapon flag |
| 19:40.43 | Ahli | weapon's data... allowed movement and that it can fire on targets that you don't currently attack |
| 19:41.16 | Ahli | "only fire on attack target" or something like that |
| 19:41.57 | EntityEnigma | ah yeah found it |
| 19:41.58 | EntityEnigma | thx so much |
| 19:42.34 | Ahli | btw, you can always select your weapon and the original weapon that works as you want yours to work, to compare them |
| 19:42.57 | EntityEnigma | yeah thx ill try that now |
| 19:49.02 | turtles1 | the native function "get maker" doesn't seem to be working for me |
| 19:49.21 | mille25 | the fuck is "get maker" :D |
| 19:49.23 | turtles1 | before when I was passing it an invalid parameter it would crash the game |
| 19:49.41 | turtles1 | but now I'm sending it the right parameters and it only returns a blank string |
| 19:50.13 | turtles1 | get maker = function which takes a unit type and tells you what building creates that unit type |
| 19:50.43 | mille25 | im confused. |
| 19:50.49 | turtles1 | suppossedly also works for upgrades and other dependencies |
| 19:51.06 | mille25 | so you are saying the function returns the unit type which can create a unit type? |
| 19:51.26 | turtles1 | input = unit type. output = unit type of building whicgh creates input |
| 19:51.37 | mille25 | that doesnt seem to make any sense to me. |
| 19:51.42 | turtles1 | yes so getMaker(marine) = Barraks |
| 19:51.47 | turtles1 | why not? |
| 19:51.56 | mille25 | what if multiple buildings can create a unit type, for example? |
| 19:52.12 | turtles1 | don't know. It's not an issue in SC2 |
| 19:52.22 | turtles1 | it would be in a custom game I guess |
| 19:52.39 | turtles1 | maybe it just returns the first one it finds *shrug* |
| 19:52.39 | mille25 | i would understand if it takes a unit reference and returns a unit reference |
| 19:52.45 | mille25 | because that would always have a valid answer. |
| 19:52.54 | mille25 | but unit type? thats weird. |
| 19:53.10 | turtles1 | I think it is used a lot for AI scripting |
| 19:53.14 | Arcane|Work | It is pretty much syntax sugar for doing catalog lookups |
| 19:53.14 | turtles1 | for SC2 |
| 19:53.39 | turtles1 | where there is always a valid answer because only one building can create units of any given type |
| 19:53.47 | turtles1 | what Arcane said |
| 19:54.03 | Arcane|Work | Basically its a front to a switch statement that checks the reference type, and then doing a search for that reference among all train/research abilties, and then taking the answers and finding all units that have those abilities |
| 19:54.22 | mille25 | sounds terrible. |
| 19:54.26 | mille25 | :D |
| 19:54.34 | turtles1 | ideally... except it either freezes my computer or returns a NULL string |
| 19:54.45 | Arcane|Work | Sounds awesome, its mega grunt work. |
| 19:54.51 | turtles1 | How does it sound terrible? it sounds AMAZINGLY useful |
| 19:54.58 | Arcane|Work | ^ |
| 19:55.23 | Arcane|Work | Its basically a template/generic function. Does some catalog linking logic for you. |
| 19:55.29 | mille25 | depends on the type of game you create i guess |
| 19:55.36 | mille25 | i cant think of any use |
| 19:56.00 | turtles1 | anyway.... at the moment does not appear to work as advertized. So I might have to do all that grunt work myself. and it's going to be a lot |
| 19:56.14 | Arcane|Work | Simple use, at least for AI. IF you see an unit of type X that is dangerous, store and find the units that produce that unit and destroy them. |
| 19:56.14 | turtles1 | mile25... so narrow focused |
| 19:56.39 | mille25 | cant you get the creator of a unit, and then simply get the unit type from that? :D |
| 19:57.00 | turtles1 | I can't for the life of me figure out why you give a crap about the silly actor display thing from renee |
| 19:57.03 | Arcane|Work | So for example, if the AI sees you have Battlecrusiers, it can use that function to get Starport and add to an AI Filter for an attack order. |
| 19:57.10 | turtles1 | but whatever, each tio their own |
| 19:57.23 | Arcane|Work | mille25: What if the enemy has multiple training faciltieies? |
| 19:57.31 | mille25 | doesnt matter |
| 19:57.34 | mille25 | you can simply get the unit type |
| 19:57.40 | Arcane|Work | Or say, multiple fusion cores to enable battlecruisers? |
| 19:57.41 | mille25 | and attack all units of that type |
| 19:58.22 | turtles1 | mile25 ok you are creating an AI... it sees the enemy has battlecruisers |
| 19:58.27 | mille25 | literally the only usage of it i can imagene is if you wanted to create some sort of copy of the sc2 unit info pages or some shit. :D |
| 19:58.33 | turtles1 | it knows the counter to battle cruisers is void rays |
| 19:58.49 | turtles1 | how does it figure out what buildings to make so it can produce void rays? |
| 19:58.56 | turtles1 | there are no void rays on the map |
| 19:59.08 | mille25 | LOOKUP TABLES! :D |
| 19:59.13 | Arcane|Work | ... fail |
| 19:59.14 | turtles1 | .... |
| 19:59.15 | Arcane|Work | :P |
| 19:59.21 | mille25 | well |
| 19:59.31 | mille25 | essencially the function IS a lookup table :D |
| 19:59.53 | Arcane|Work | To a degree yes, but if we are pendantic, all code is a lookup of assembly instructions :D |
| 20:00.03 | turtles1 | ^ |
| 20:00.07 | Arcane|Work | and memory locations |
| 20:00.27 | Arcane|Work | brb, lunch time |
| 20:00.29 | mille25 | dont you think you go a bit too far there, Arcane|Work ? :D |
| 20:00.32 | turtles1 | ok fine how about my current usage |
| 20:00.43 | Arcane|Work | Hence the word 'pendantic" :D |
| 20:00.44 | mille25 | to get back to the original question |
| 20:00.45 | mille25 | no idea lol |
| 20:00.46 | turtles1 | I want to know if a player is able to create units of type X |
| 20:01.01 | turtles1 | the way to do that is to check if they have any buildings which create x |
| 20:01.41 | turtles1 | keeping in mind that this function also works for other things like upgrades and can be modified to work with custom made dependency trees |
| 20:02.15 | mille25 | well |
| 20:02.25 | mille25 | if you pass a unit type and it returns nonsense its most likely broken |
| 20:02.26 | turtles1 | and yes, I could make a look up table with about 200 different options |
| 20:02.31 | mille25 | i guess there is zero documentation whatsoever? |
| 20:02.44 | turtles1 | and have to update the code whenever something changes |
| 20:02.54 | EntityEnigma | thats odd |
| 20:03.02 | EntityEnigma | it still stops to attack |
| 20:03.03 | EntityEnigma | how gay |
| 20:03.08 | turtles1 | "Returns the ID of the unit type that directly makes the specified object for a player. Same as the script version, except this version cannot be modified to handle custom requirements." |
| 20:03.41 | mille25 | hmmm... |
| 20:03.54 | mille25 | "that directly makes the specified object for a player." |
| 20:03.59 | mille25 | not very clear what that means IMO |
| 20:04.05 | mille25 | for example |
| 20:04.14 | mille25 | does it return null if the player does not have the building? |
| 20:04.30 | mille25 | does the function have a player param? |
| 20:04.42 | EntityEnigma | set |
| 20:05.25 | EntityEnigma | "(Basic) Weapon: Allowed movement" to "Moving" and |
| 20:05.49 | turtles1 | Why would it return null if the player does not have that unit |
| 20:06.02 | turtles1 | that's silly |
| 20:06.35 | mille25 | in theory it should not even be possible because if the player doesnt have the building he shouldnt have the unit either |
| 20:06.38 | mille25 | well actually |
| 20:06.40 | mille25 | it could happen |
| 20:06.45 | turtles1 | what? |
| 20:06.46 | mille25 | through mind control for example. |
| 20:06.47 | mille25 | :D |
| 20:06.51 | mille25 | (infestor) |
| 20:07.13 | turtles1 | just because a player doesn't have a marine does not meen that marine is not a valid item in the data module |
| 20:07.24 | EntityEnigma | "(Basic) Weapon: Options +" to "Can Initiate Attack", "Only Fire While Attacking", and "Require Enabled Attack Ability" and it still stops to shoot |
| 20:07.25 | mille25 | im not talking about the marine |
| 20:07.30 | mille25 | im talking about the barraks, in that case. |
| 20:07.31 | turtles1 | catalog I mean |
| 20:07.38 | mille25 | the documentation says |
| 20:07.45 | mille25 | "that directly makes the specified object for a player." |
| 20:07.45 | turtles1 | baraks will still be in the catalog |
| 20:07.54 | mille25 | i know |
| 20:07.58 | mille25 | the question is how the function works |
| 20:08.01 | mille25 | so again |
| 20:08.15 | mille25 | it may return null if the player did not produce the unit himself |
| 20:08.19 | *** part/#sc2mapster Ahli (~asdaaaaa@ip-2-206-120-179.web.vodafone.de) |
| 20:08.23 | EntityEnigma | why do i bother |
| 20:09.01 | mille25 | the "for a player" bit of the documentation is confusing me |
| 20:09.23 | mille25 | if its a pure melee game catalog read, how does the player matter? |
| 20:10.13 | turtles1 | when you read catalogs you specify a player |
| 20:10.23 | Dustin|Work | Each player haas it's own catalog entry |
| 20:10.24 | turtles1 | it is in there for all catalog related functions |
| 20:10.31 | mille25 | thats true, but it shouldnt matter in this case. |
| 20:10.56 | turtles1 | if each players catalog can be different then it does matter |
| 20:11.19 | turtles1 | or if each players catalog must be the same then it never matters |
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| 20:11.38 | turtles1 | either way it is consistent with all the other catalog functions |
| 20:12.32 | mille25 | first you are saying that in a melee game, there is always a clear answer as to which building creates a unit/upgrade, but then you say the player matters for the lookup. |
| 20:12.48 | mille25 | either way |
| 20:12.51 | mille25 | i dont know really. |
| 20:13.58 | turtles1 | say I wanted to know what a marines damagae is in a melee game. I would still have to do a catalog lookup on a players catalog |
| 20:14.14 | mille25 | sure, thats because of upgrades. |
| 20:14.22 | mille25 | but a barracks will always make marines |
| 20:14.23 | turtles1 | anyway... I wanted to know if others had got it working |
| 20:14.47 | mille25 | hmm |
| 20:14.51 | mille25 | wasnt JademusSreg working on an AI himself? |
| 20:14.56 | mille25 | maybe he knows more about that function. |
| 20:15.02 | turtles1 | evidentely not many people use it here |
| 20:15.27 | mille25 | sadly its entirely possible that some of the rarely used blizzard functions are bugged, too. |
| 20:15.34 | mille25 | even though i doubt it in this case |
| 20:15.42 | EntityEnigma | sigh the wiki was wrong |
| 20:15.45 | mille25 | would guess that blizzard may use it for its own AI. |
| 20:15.48 | turtles1 | yeah, probably PEBKAC |
| 20:16.08 | turtles1 | just don't know why |
| 20:16.22 | mille25 | cant do much more than testing around a bit |
| 20:16.30 | mille25 | if it always returns null its probably broken |
| 20:17.01 | mille25 | also, how exactly do you test the function? |
| 20:17.35 | turtles1 | it takes a string and returns a string |
| 20:17.56 | mille25 | yeah i know |
| 20:17.58 | turtles1 | I was testing it with "get game link(SCV)" |
| 20:18.06 | turtles1 | and it was crashing SC2 |
| 20:18.10 | mille25 | wtf :D |
| 20:19.02 | turtles1 | but then I tried it with a "get catalog value(unit scv name)" which returns an empty string |
| 20:19.05 | mille25 | may want to try http://www.sc2mapster.com/wiki/sc2-api/functions/unit-get-type/ instead. |
| 20:19.22 | mille25 | or just directly inputting the SCV game link |
| 20:21.19 | mille25 | so for example for SCV it should just be |
| 20:21.26 | mille25 | getMaker("SCV"); |
| 20:21.36 | turtles1 | yeah, that crashes SC2 |
| 20:21.58 | mille25 | critical error? |
| 20:22.00 | mille25 | or freeze? |
| 20:22.10 | turtles1 | but getMaker(units/SCV) or something like that returns NULL string |
| 20:22.44 | turtles1 | freeze and eventually a popup offering to send a bug report to Blizzard |
| 20:23.30 | mille25 | sounds pretty fucked up |
| 20:25.19 | turtles1 | oh, it was /unit/name/scv which returns a blank |
| 20:25.49 | turtles1 | "unit/name/scv" being the return value from a catalog querry I made to see if that would work |
| 20:26.30 | mille25 | the documentation mentiones the unit ID |
| 20:26.44 | mille25 | the ID is usually the unit type, which in this case is simply "SCV" |
| 20:27.07 | mille25 | ah sorry |
| 20:27.09 | turtles1 | well SCV freezes the game completely |
| 20:27.12 | mille25 | its the return value |
| 20:27.20 | mille25 | it doesnt mention anything about the format of the input parameter |
| 20:27.34 | Arcane|Work | What does the function want again? |
| 20:27.36 | Arcane|Work | A string? |
| 20:27.43 | turtles1 | a unit type |
| 20:27.50 | turtles1 | so yes, a string |
| 20:27.56 | mille25 | a string, described as |
| 20:28.00 | mille25 | "the specified object" |
| 20:28.01 | mille25 | =D |
| 20:28.02 | Arcane|Work | Yeah, so Unit Type ID |
| 20:28.08 | Arcane|Work | or ID of a valid object |
| 20:28.45 | turtles1 | maybe I will just have to do all the cataloging grunt work myself :( |
| 20:29.37 | turtles1 | but it's a real bitch to start with a unit type and work your way backwards through the catalog |
| 20:30.08 | mille25 | https://www.dropbox.com/s/siwsvy1y8ayhs97/Screenshot%202014-08-20%2022.30.10.png |
| 20:30.11 | Dustin|Work | Blizzard needs to allow us to change unit threat via behavior |
| 20:30.17 | mille25 | didnt know this fucker even existed in SC2 :D |
| 20:31.22 | turtles1 | I wonder if "first missing requirement" function also does not work then |
| 20:31.55 | turtles1 | I was using that too but haven't got around to testing it |
| 20:32.05 | turtles1 | seems like it would work on the same principals |
| 20:33.27 | turtles1 | anyway, I'm done for today. Stupid buggy Blizzard functions! |
| 20:33.34 | turtles1 | night everyone, thanks for your time |
| 20:34.23 | *** part/#sc2mapster turtles1 (~dave3@d27-99-21-105.bla802.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 20:35.22 | Dustin|Work | How goes SCU mille? |
| 20:35.37 | mille25 | tons of work to do |
| 20:35.48 | mille25 | D: |
| 20:38.29 | Dustin|Work | I bet :(! |
| 20:38.44 | Arcane|Work | Always will be |
| 20:38.46 | Dustin|Work | Guys got any tenative release plans? |
| 20:39.03 | mille25 | yes |
| 20:39.17 | mille25 | big release towards end of the year |
| 20:39.19 | mille25 | maybe |
| 20:40.44 | Dustin|Work | sweet |
| 20:40.46 | mille25 | but pretty much everything is based on randomness |
| 20:40.50 | Dustin|Work | Looking forward to areas not in a box :D |
| 20:40.51 | mille25 | so we need at least 8 weeks of testing only |
| 20:41.09 | mille25 | terrain random, missions random |
| 20:41.12 | mille25 | its complex |
| 20:41.19 | Dustin|Work | Ya i can imagine |
| 20:41.28 | Dustin|Work | I like the phaasing system you gusy integrated for the current release |
| 20:42.50 | mille25 | we figured that the only way to make the game replayable is by adding lots of randomness to it |
| 20:42.53 | mille25 | but it comes with many challenges |
| 20:42.56 | Arcane|Work | mille25: I feel your pain, currently slogging through NOTD 2, working on classes + some missions, also spawn systems (got ambient down, need to do bullies, and also mission specific waves). |
| 20:42.59 | mille25 | especially balance and making sure nothing fucks up |
| 20:43.20 | Arcane|Work | Have you guys attempted using the AI stuff combined with the build in difficulty things? |
| 20:43.40 | Dustin|Work | Nah I just code my own AI for everything |
| 20:43.54 | Arcane|Work | Maybe have Ability type items that can be added to bosses, give them variablistic abilties? |
| 20:46.01 | Arcane|Work | One thing I need to badly workaround is the 32 ability limit on units... |
| 20:46.11 | mille25 | uh yeah that sucks |
| 20:46.53 | Dustin|Work | Dont abilities have to be setup before the game too, no dynamic adding or removing right |
| 20:47.03 | mille25 | im glad i dont have do deal with those stupid data limits |
| 20:47.13 | Arcane|Work | Yeah, for NOTD2, each class has a bunch of shared abilities, which flow from a base class, then each has a talent tree of 12 abiltieis. Some are actual abiltiies, but some are upgrades, but still. |
| 20:47.45 | Arcane|Work | Dustin|Work: Yes, but in theory, with some fun gui work and trickery, you can have up to several hundred abilties |
| 20:48.10 | Arcane|Work | But only of type effect-target and effect-instant (and with storm behavior abilities I think) |
| 20:48.25 | Arcane|Work | Since we have ability items |
| 20:48.44 | mille25 | any news about bounties kickstarter btw? |
| 20:49.24 | Arcane|Work | And since each inventory container can have up to 64 slots, that will normally give you anywehre from 3-5*64 extra abilities. |
| 20:49.45 | Arcane|Work | Only problem is hotkeys don't work for them, afaict |
| 20:49.49 | Dustin|Work | ahh |
| 20:50.00 | Arcane|Work | But I have not thoroughly investigated the possibility |
| 20:50.29 | Arcane|Work | Mind you, I'm VERY curious on how Storm handles this, since you can have custom command cards in there. |
| 20:50.42 | Dustin|Work | If I end up making that Evolve map I might run into that problem with my monster's abilities |
| 20:51.14 | Dustin|Work | i'll need 36 abilities |
| 20:51.21 | Dustin|Work | damn |
| 20:51.28 | Dustin|Work | Some are passive though |
| 20:51.31 | Dustin|Work | So that should be fine |
| 20:51.31 | Arcane|Work | Well, one thing, assuming you don't need ALL the capabilties of an effect - instant, is to combine many of them into a single specalize abiltiy |
| 20:51.46 | Dustin|Work | Ya good call |
| 20:51.56 | Arcane|Work | Like, if you don't need target fliters, and channeling and other stuff |
| 20:51.57 | Dustin|Work | Maybe I should just make some 'abilities' modify original abilities |
| 20:52.10 | mille25 | way back in time i decided that its easier to code an entire ability system from scratch than dealing with this data shit... was a pain in the ass but not regretting it now. :D |
| 20:52.21 | Arcane|Work | Well, that would come under one research abilitiy |
| 20:52.34 | Dustin|Work | Ya millie, that would be my way to go too if I had a big proejct to work with |
| 20:52.50 | mille25 | it also comes with disadvantages though |
| 20:52.52 | Arcane|Work | What one could also do as a hack/trick is to have 1 train ability, that creates the items, and creates them at the caster. |
| 20:53.10 | Arcane|Work | Thereby allowing one to add arbitrary ability items |
| 20:53.17 | mille25 | for example, we still didnt find a way to create a lagless target selection splat model using scripted abilties. :/ |
| 20:53.42 | mille25 | cant attach model to mouse... cant use data dummy ability in target selection state |
| 20:53.57 | Arcane|Work | Err... why not? |
| 20:54.07 | mille25 | because you cant issue a unit to execute an ability in that stage |
| 20:54.15 | mille25 | you aready need to specify the target point before executing. |
| 20:54.30 | mille25 | and even if you somehow would manage to do it |
| 20:54.41 | mille25 | there would still be many parameters that wouldnt interact well with SCUs script |
| 20:55.13 | Arcane|Work | Hmm... I was under the impression splats just were created in a certain scope to follow the mouse, nothing more. |
| 20:55.14 | mille25 | for example, the target splat needs to turn red when not in line of sight |
| 20:55.16 | mille25 | shit like that |
| 20:55.29 | Arcane|Work | State monitor? |
| 20:55.43 | Arcane|Work | That's its entire purpose, to make such things possible |
| 20:56.11 | mille25 | ? |
| 20:56.38 | Arcane|Work | State monitor actors are ones that can have states, and using actor terms, can change state, and you can catch state changes and send actor messsages. |
| 20:56.56 | mille25 | im more interrested in creating a splat to follow the mouse natively. |
| 20:57.02 | mille25 | is that somehow possible through script? |
| 20:57.58 | Arcane|Work | Not entirely, but what you can do is set an actor term to use a validator and use a player requirement validator, set some dummy thing for it, and in script, alter that thing (upgrade, whaterver) to control the requirement and by extension the validator, and thus the monitor. |
| 20:58.50 | Arcane|Work | Player Requirements are the key, since they are one of the few things you can define and have script indirectly manipulate anything in data via validators. |
| 20:59.55 | Arcane|Work | State Monitor actors are responsible for the burning effect on terran buildings, they have 4 states, and with validators, check the building hp. When the hp reaches a threshold, it switches states. Based on that state change, and what state it came from, it kills the current fires and replaces them with the approrpriate ones. |
| 21:00.12 | Arcane|Work | You can set the period the monitor is checking (by default 0.5 seconds) |
| 21:01.18 | Dustin|Work | Ya mille I remember the High Templar ground splat for Psionic storm was super laggy for me |
| 21:01.36 | Arcane|Work | But as for the splat following the cursor, my understanding is that it is entirely based on a certain actor scope. I remember reading a tooltip on it, there is a specific "catchall" scope for stuff not created by units or by effects |
| 21:02.02 | Arcane|Work | Gimme a sec to fire up my VM and I'll see if I can find it. |
| 21:02.24 | mille25 | i dont really need anything besides the splat following the mouse natively. the rest works fine the way it is. |
| 21:02.28 | mille25 | actually thinking about it |
| 21:02.34 | mille25 | i probably cant even use that any longer |
| 21:02.45 | mille25 | i made a change recently to emulate the heroes of the storm target point selection |
| 21:02.57 | mille25 | where, even if your mouse goes outside the allowed range, the selection splat stays inside |
| 21:04.02 | Arcane|Work | Interesting |
| 21:04.35 | mille25 | hm yeah save your time Arcane|Work, it wont work for us anyways even if its somehow possible to do. |
| 21:04.57 | Arcane|Work | Perhaps, but you think I'm doing anything productive now at work? :D :D |
| 21:05.05 | mille25 | i hoped so. :D |
| 21:05.26 | Arcane|Work | Ha, no, last 3 days of my internship, doing some wrap up stuff, but basically am done. |
| 21:08.05 | mille25 | 8D |
| 21:16.06 | Dustin|Work | nice! |
| 21:16.11 | Dustin|Work | Working fo freee |
| 21:22.01 | mille25 | im tired |
| 21:22.05 | mille25 | good night everyone |
| 21:27.54 | greybeard | mua ha ha |
| 21:28.26 | greybeard | the individual ability mechanics for my new transistor turn based system are complete |
| 21:29.54 | greybeard | would have been done last week, but I replaced a core shield ability for a bomber-man-like bomb ability that's a lot of fun |
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