| 00:28.36 | A1win | is there a way to check if an integer value exists in an enum? |
| 00:30.34 | A1win | like if I read an integer from bank, how do I make sure it's a valid Key preset? |
| 00:31.47 | JademusSreg | Valid key? Valid in what sense? |
| 00:31.55 | A1win | within the enum range |
| 00:32.03 | A1win | I mean c_Key or whatever it is |
| 00:32.44 | JademusSreg | Ah. if value >= lowest key and <= highest key. |
| 00:32.58 | A1win | where do I find those? |
| 00:34.19 | JademusSreg | key > c_keyNone && key <= c_keyF12 |
| 00:35.10 | JademusSreg | https://pastee.org/28du5 |
| 00:35.49 | A1win | alright |
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| 00:51.36 | A1win | if I read values from a bank, do I need to do anything to it after opening and retrieving the value? |
| 00:52.58 | ArcanePariah | Nope |
| 00:54.02 | ArcanePariah | JademusSreg I find it amusing in my quest to understand the Unit status bars that Blizzard originally did what my map already uses, dialogs en masse |
| 00:54.47 | ArcanePariah | When they did the Status bars for heroes in HotS, they just made a library of code to do dialog resizin, but later on properly implemented it in the UI editor |
| 00:55.13 | ArcanePariah | I dunno if they patched the campaign code to use the templates in the UI editor or continued to just bruteforce it with triggers |
| 01:06.34 | JademusSreg | Yup. |
| 01:06.54 | JademusSreg | To the former, that is. |
| 01:13.04 | ArcanePariah | Welp, they never got around to it, from appearances, but that's understandable |
| 01:13.50 | ArcanePariah | Also, my next question is... where is the list for determining the externalized paths that are replete in the UI files? |
| 01:14.36 | ArcanePariah | I would like to use it as you sugguested, but right now they mean nothing since without an accurate idea of what they point to, I can not really utlize them effectively |
| 01:19.39 | JademusSreg | checks. |
| 01:21.15 | JademusSreg | GameData/Assets.txt |
| 01:23.13 | ArcanePariah | And this is in the core dependency? |
| 01:23.44 | JademusSreg | There's a version of the file per mod. |
| 01:23.46 | ArcanePariah | Or which depency is this found in (or all of them)? |
| 01:23.49 | ArcanePariah | ok |
| 01:24.12 | A1win | how often should I save the bank? |
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| 01:25.09 | JademusSreg | A1, whenever the hotkeys are modified, and if you save gameplay stats when the player leaves the game. |
| 01:26.23 | Bounty | JademusSreg |
| 01:26.35 | Bounty | There is an exclamation point model in the editor right? |
| 01:26.39 | A1win | whee, I think thi works |
| 01:26.41 | Bounty | Or am I just delusional |
| 01:26.44 | A1win | on first attempt o: |
| 01:26.48 | JademusSreg | checks. |
| 01:27.04 | Bounty | I found the question mark one but I could have sworn there was one that was also an exclamation point |
| 01:27.26 | A1win | jinxed it again, only hotkeys worked, loadout not |
| 01:28.28 | A1win | bleh copy-paste failure |
| 01:32.02 | JademusSreg | PingAlert, PingBaseAttack contain exclamation points. |
| 01:32.15 | Bounty | yeah but not like the tech purchase one :( |
| 01:32.22 | Bounty | damnit |
| 01:32.24 | Bounty | lol |
| 01:32.38 | Bounty | Maybe a question mark is good enough? |
| 01:32.39 | A1win | great, now it set all my hotkeys as Shift |
| 01:34.26 | Bounty | There are so many amazing models in the UI folder |
| 01:34.28 | Bounty | lol |
| 01:34.40 | Bounty | Its a shame I only started looking into it about a month or so ago |
| 01:41.25 | ArcanePariah | So fun fact, UnitStatusBars can only be defined within unit status frames |
| 01:41.48 | ArcanePariah | Since you can't assign a unit to a unit status bar, but only to the unit status frame type |
| 01:43.42 | A1win | yaay now it works |
| 01:46.26 | A1win | now just need those reset/preset controls and loadouts |
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| 02:01.17 | Zoltrov | A1win, voinko yrittää puhua suomeksi noormalista jotuista ja ei olla ärsyttävä? |
| 02:02.05 | A1win | this is an english speaking channel |
| 02:03.26 | Zoltrov | Ei ole, JademusSreg on sanonut että toiset kielet on hyviä täällä |
| 02:03.42 | A1win | I doubt that ;p |
| 02:03.51 | Zoltrov | Voidaan puhua Saksaa tai suomea tai hollantia täällä |
| 02:03.57 | Zoltrov | No, kysy sille |
| 02:04.22 | A1win | JademusSreg, do you have a giant monkey living in your carage? |
| 02:05.10 | A1win | (the question might have slightly changed in translation) |
| 02:05.34 | Zoltrov | Ahaah |
| 02:06.01 | Zoltrov | A1win, mä yritän olla normaali... |
| 02:06.07 | Zoltrov | On vaikea mulle |
| 02:06.32 | Zoltrov | Ja, mä vaan haluan tulla paremmaksi puhuvana suomea |
| 02:06.43 | A1win | "normal" just means you don't do anything other people don't want you to do |
| 02:06.51 | A1win | for example, speaking foreign languages here |
| 02:07.05 | Zoltrov | Niin, mä en tiedä voiko sanoa 'puhuvana suoema' niin |
| 02:07.36 | Zoltrov | Well, it's your native language and it's not like there'ssomeone else here |
| 02:08.55 | A1win | sleep time |
| 02:09.06 | Zoltrov | Hyvää yötä |
| 02:50.20 | Bounty | I just watched the Heroes of the Storm Trailer JademusSreg |
| 02:50.29 | Bounty | Just makes me more excited to make my Super Smash Bros version of it |
| 02:50.41 | Bounty | Such a waste of time with what they're doing with it imo lol |
| 02:52.21 | JademusSreg | Naw, excellent design. Overlapped a great deal with my designs, impressed me by improving aspects of the design which were less than elegant. |
| 02:57.21 | JademusSreg | Ditching cumbersome item systems for talent tree? Excellent. Objective-driven conflict, competing for decisive advantage in taking out fortifications? Brilliant. Variation in aesthetics, layout, and mechanics across different maps? Lovely. |
| 03:07.58 | Bounty | pew |
| 03:09.34 | Bounty | You should work with me when I start development of a Super Smash Bros version of Blizzard Allstars |
| 03:09.36 | Bounty | :) |
| 03:09.36 | JademusSreg | All the more tragic Blizz didn't hire me for the project. =D |
| 03:09.41 | Bounty | for balance |
| 03:10.20 | JademusSreg | Super Smash Bounty. |
| 03:10.44 | Bounty | Meh, that name is a tad.... meh |
| 03:10.57 | Bounty | I think its a good concept though |
| 03:11.09 | Bounty | Not sure why they went with a dota type game honestly... |
| 03:11.44 | JademusSreg | They improved on the design, good enough reason to do it. =D |
| 03:12.11 | ArcanePariah | Going to be interesting to see how things play out with no items or farming. On one hands, allows more complex character setups, but on the other, raises the possiblity of win at character select, with no way to change your gameplay chances |
| 03:12.39 | Bounty | I think games like Smash bros has a much wider appeal than Dota |
| 03:13.12 | ArcanePariah | Unless Blizzard does a superb job of making it the skill combinations a given hero has are diverse enough, there will be a 5 man autowin team within weeks |
| 03:14.01 | ArcanePariah | However, I do see them solving that via the rotating maps |
| 03:14.20 | ArcanePariah | Since they can make maps that favor one style of play, then replace it with another style being favored |
| 03:14.31 | Bounty | I just don't see dota being a genre worth their time at this point |
| 03:14.52 | Bounty | Typical Blizzard IMO |
| 03:14.55 | ArcanePariah | Nah, dota and its clones all have similar flaws that Blizzard is trying to address |
| 03:15.21 | Bounty | an entire genre invented in their engine and they ignore it,. Until a bunch of other companies catch it and make it their own |
| 03:15.36 | ArcanePariah | Bounty, that is typical of all large companies :D |
| 03:15.49 | Bounty | Blizzard had no notice until other companies made it huge |
| 03:15.58 | ArcanePariah | But anyhow, the most interesting thing that Blizzard seems to be tackling is the snowball effect |
| 03:16.07 | Bounty | I think it says a lot about Blizzards development intentions ArcanePariah |
| 03:16.22 | ArcanePariah | By removing items and making alternate paths to victory, game will be far less snowbally |
| 03:16.31 | Bounty | and it even more so confirms that they are all about the money, no risks |
| 03:16.34 | ArcanePariah | Well... did you watch the interview? |
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| 03:16.55 | ArcanePariah | Sure its about money, but for the most part they have been evolving the game over the last 3 years or so |
| 03:17.02 | Bounty | Really? How is that a question? I watched the official cgi trailer lol |
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| 03:17.16 | ArcanePariah | THere was an interview in addition to the trailer |
| 03:18.08 | Bounty | What makes me the most angry is the fact that if valve had not hired the developer for Dota allstars, Blizzard would have just taken the shit and gave him nothing |
| 03:18.12 | Bounty | I think that says a lot |
| 03:19.07 | ArcanePariah | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuIlfjqwBmE |
| 03:20.24 | ArcanePariah | So.... umm.... if Valve didn't hire icefrog, Blizzard would have done the same (btw Ice didn't develop dota, he balanced it and did add some stuff, but dota was devloped by like 4 diff people) |
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| 03:22.09 | Bounty | Yeah sorry ArcanePariah |
| 03:22.12 | Bounty | Watching the vide |
| 03:22.14 | Bounty | o |
| 03:22.17 | Bounty | Don't see what the big deal is |
| 03:22.23 | Bounty | Each Class has a specific task to do... |
| 03:22.24 | JademusSreg | I speculate Blizz wouldn't have hired Icefrog; dota the seconding shows such an action would have produced more of the same. |
| 03:22.46 | Bounty | I don't see how thats more fun than a smash bros type game? |
| 03:22.51 | Bounty | Just admit it |
| 03:22.59 | Bounty | Blizz Smash Bros > Blizz Dota |
| 03:23.07 | Bounty | We have enough effing dotas |
| 03:23.12 | ArcanePariah | Yeah, although dota 2 is starting to be more innovative, the last 2 patches were the first to come to dota 2 before dota 1 |
| 03:23.15 | Bounty | and I don't enjoy any of them loo |
| 03:23.26 | ArcanePariah | He changed some fundamental mechanics |
| 03:23.45 | Bounty | Dota as a genre sucks IMO |
| 03:23.50 | Bounty | Its not fun at all |
| 03:23.55 | ArcanePariah | Oh? |
| 03:24.02 | Bounty | Its good for competitive teams |
| 03:24.05 | Bounty | thats about it... |
| 03:24.08 | JademusSreg | Entirely too much grandfathering of antiquated designs in mooobas, and it's refreshing that Blizz has taken the relatively bold move of tossing out the old shit. |
| 03:24.09 | Bounty | Oh? |
| 03:24.43 | ArcanePariah | Well... MOBAS are popular because they are a triple hybrid, combining action + rpg + rts elements |
| 03:25.02 | Ahli | and you can blame your teammates for loosing |
| 03:25.08 | Bounty | Yeah, I'm sure thats the reason they're popular... |
| 03:25.09 | ArcanePariah | JademusSreg what designs you feel are antiquated that are present in current mobas? |
| 03:25.14 | ArcanePariah | Ahli indeed, that too |
| 03:25.41 | Bounty | I don't understand how people think MOBAs are fun outside of a competitive standpoint |
| 03:25.52 | Bounty | They're more designed for sport than game |
| 03:25.55 | Ahli | shiny colors and verbal abuse |
| 03:26.11 | ArcanePariah | Well Bounty, like an RPG, you grow powerful with powerful skills and items. Like an RTS, you amass resources (Gold/Items/team power), and finally, like an action game, you can dramatically use all the above to kill enemies and QQ over them |
| 03:26.48 | ArcanePariah | And to top all of that off, you get to do it as a team, and winning as team = social and fun for most |
| 03:27.05 | ArcanePariah | Most popular sports people both watch and play are team based |
| 03:27.25 | JademusSreg | The RPG thing concerns pacing; level-based unlocks, themselves an ancient design trope from a time when computational burden was on the D&D dungeon master, players, pencil and paper, serve hero-fighty games as a way of building tension toward a climactic showdown. |
| 03:28.56 | ArcanePariah | Hmm... I can see your point, though (in DotA at least), it serves as a intersting factor that makes gameplay dynamic, as some heroes are powerful early, some mid game, some late, and some a mix of all 3. Also some characters are dependent on getting levels, others on items |
| 03:29.01 | JademusSreg | Levels are popular because they are more easily grasped and read by players than more incremental, diffuse alternatives. |
| 03:30.37 | ArcanePariah | Yes, but that is important, because obscuring basic gameplay mechanics, while mentally stimulating, merely serve to make the game artificially more difficult for newer players, regardless of skill |
| 03:34.14 | JademusSreg | I've got no position, just making observations. The RPG mechanics are superficial, and serve a purpose that's neither progress nor personalization, but rather make the early game less intense by limiting power and options, saving the intense arsenal-depleting battles for late game. |
| 03:36.12 | Bounty | Heres the problem I have with genres that are solely developed for the sake of esports |
| 03:36.35 | Bounty | and I sincerely encourage debate on this as I have yet to come to any other conclusion |
| 03:36.58 | JademusSreg | Thinking so inflexibly as to confine games to genres is bound to cause problems. =D |
| 03:37.38 | Bounty | To me, esports will lead us down the path that professional sports has gone. In that you have a specific genres of games that people compete in and thats that. No Innovation, not fun, only the best of the best can even play them. |
| 03:38.07 | Bounty | I am no fan of traditional sports but I'm sure we could find some flaws in the game |
| 03:38.20 | Bounty | but its accepted as "the sporrt" |
| 03:38.22 | Bounty | so it is |
| 03:38.58 | Bounty | Just to clarify, if someone could correct me on this I would be very grateful lol |
| 03:41.24 | JademusSreg | Wherever one feels there is a problem with a thing, instead reverse the focus and attempt to understand the thing. To summarily dismiss an activity is to project one's personal tastes and biases onto reality; better to understand reality and reflect why one feels any particular way about a thing. =D |
| 03:44.35 | Bounty | da fuck did you just say JademusSreg |
| 03:48.47 | JademusSreg | Have opinions make think less, have less opinions make think more, think more good. |
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| 04:38.13 | Bounty | I think I've come to a conclusion as to where I stand "politically" JademusSreg |
| 04:39.06 | Bounty | I am against Capitalism and I am for Communism in the sense that we work together, nothing more |
| 04:39.08 | Bounty | Make sense? |
| 04:41.20 | Bounty | Not sure what I would be labelled as at that point but there you have it lol |
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| 05:39.29 | cardanis | Hey, quick question, how do I post a download in a forum post? Like, if I have a mod file I want to put in the post? |
| 05:44.53 | Bounty | Swear to god if I get another Paul Walker died post on my Facebook... |
| 05:45.17 | JademusSreg | ? |
| 05:45.30 | Bounty | I take it you have not seen it yet? |
| 05:45.44 | Bounty | The guy from Fast and the Furious died in a car crash (Ironically) |
| 05:45.48 | JademusSreg | No idea to what you refer. |
| 05:46.16 | Bounty | I personally have been bashing people for the last hour or so about posting it over and over lol |
| 05:48.04 | ArcanePariah | cardanis, you will need to upload the file first (Either to SC2 Mapster in your personal assets, or some other free file hosting site), then post the link in your post |
| 05:48.33 | cardanis | kk, thanks. And is there a way to embed youtube videos? |
| 05:49.53 | JademusSreg | http://www.curseforge.com/wiki/knowledge-base/markup-types/ |
| 05:52.04 | cardanis | Thanks! And one last question, to upload a personal asset I just go to Assets, then create new right? |
| 05:52.31 | JademusSreg | Probably. |
| 06:05.20 | JademusSreg | Pop quiz: What is the highest possible number of discrete points that may occupy a single terrain cell? The winner will be awarded Stuff. |
| 06:20.12 | cardanis | I love how stuff was capitalized |
| 06:21.05 | JademusSreg | Yes, brand name Stuff is most prestigious. |
| 06:21.06 | cardanis | (I have to wait for the asset to be approved before I can use the file download link, don't I <(T_T)> |
| 06:21.12 | cardanis | also I have no idea lol |
| 06:21.18 | JademusSreg | Link to the asset> |
| 06:21.19 | cardanis | though I'm curious as to why you need to know |
| 06:21.19 | JademusSreg | ? |
| 06:21.31 | cardanis | trying to upload a file to sc2mapster |
| 06:21.33 | JademusSreg | I already know, thus a quiz. |
| 06:21.49 | cardanis | so I created a project, and uploaded the file to that |
| 06:22.00 | JademusSreg | And if you link to the asset, and it's actually worth being an asset, I can approve it. |
| 06:22.03 | cardanis | but the download link is dead, probably because it's saying the project hasn't been approved |
| 06:22.18 | cardanis | http://www.sc2mapster.com/maps/defendable-walls/files/1-defendable-walls/ |
| 06:22.21 | JademusSreg | Otherwise, you can actually just attach the file to a post. |
| 06:22.25 | cardanis | It's more of a data mod |
| 06:22.34 | cardanis | I can? How do I do that? |
| 06:23.08 | cardanis | I looked through the page you linked earlier, it didn't seem to answer it |
| 06:24.47 | JademusSreg | Yeah, iirc, any attachment added to a post, including perhaps private messages, can be linked. If you've ever noticed the Add Attachment link in the post/reply form, that's it. |
| 06:26.39 | cardanis | Ya, I'm in the Post form and there's no Add Attachment option |
| 06:27.53 | JademusSreg | Ah, yeah, that's always been a problem. Actually have to post first, dunno why they forgot the attachment feature there. |
| 06:28.09 | cardanis | hahaha, kk |
| 06:29.44 | cardanis | Done and done |
| 06:29.46 | cardanis | \http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/resources/data-assets/59847-defendable-walls/#p1 |
| 06:31.28 | JademusSreg | Nicely done, card. |
| 06:32.14 | cardanis | First fully completed project |
| 06:32.22 | cardanis | ~Feels accomplished~ |
| 06:32.35 | JademusSreg | Well earned. |
| 06:33.51 | JademusSreg | I should point out that all your screenshots show that you didn't disable View > Show Hidden Terrain Cells. |
| 06:34.55 | cardanis | herp |
| 06:35.00 | cardanis | I was wondering why it looked like that |
| 06:35.35 | JademusSreg | Also, I advise uploading the mod to bnet (as public/unlocked) so people can add them as proper dependencies, if they want. |
| 06:40.13 | cardanis | Ya, that's the next step |
| 06:40.26 | JademusSreg | =D |
| 06:41.29 | cardanis | Thanks for all the help =D |
| 06:41.42 | JademusSreg | predicts a rise in Starship Trooper maps. |
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| 06:42.51 | cardanis | Haha, I would love to see this used |
| 06:43.11 | cardanis | I actually started it because I was working on another map, found the walls and was like "That'd be cool!" but then they were broken |
| 06:43.18 | cardanis | and then I was no longer working on that map for a long time. |
| 06:43.20 | JademusSreg | Haha. |
| 06:54.46 | cardanis | Anyway, I'm out. Thanks again! |
| 06:58.05 | ArcanePariah | So anyhow, JademusSreg the Unit StatusBars only seem to function within a UnitStatusFrame |
| 06:59.25 | JademusSreg | Yeah. |
| 07:00.08 | ArcanePariah | Also, the UnitStatusBar I think needs to somehow be associated with the correct bar, since it appears there is a barcount and you can index the other values? |
| 07:01.46 | ArcanePariah | Also, I was unable to create any of the Implemented Frames of UnitStatus, when I attempted to use Frame as the basis for the template, it said the Label frame could not be hooked up to it |
| 07:02.40 | JademusSreg | Hm. Odd. |
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| 07:30.27 | Stewox | so G0A did you do anything on pictionary yet ? |
| 07:30.54 | G0A | nope |
| 07:31.13 | G0A | have better things to do |
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| 07:57.17 | miushock | hi guys |
| 07:57.43 | JademusSreg | Zugzug |
| 07:58.30 | miushock | oh hi jade, u're always here <3 |
| 07:59.02 | JademusSreg | ♥ |
| 07:59.36 | miushock | well i guess i can ask some questions since u're here :) |
| 07:59.54 | miushock | not a 'how to' question |
| 08:00.27 | miushock | just wondering, when people make an upgradable ability |
| 08:00.42 | miushock | how it's suppose to be managed? |
| 08:01.19 | miushock | does people always make multiple abilities for different ability level? |
| 08:02.18 | JademusSreg | Often, it's done with ability type Learn in conjunction with the ability types which support multiple levels, such as Effect Instant and Effect Target. |
| 08:06.18 | miushock | i c... but other than granting the ease on fixing hot key i still need to make different 'actual' ability for each level right? |
| 08:06.49 | miushock | say... i have an ability trigger effect A -> B -> C in sequence |
| 08:07.16 | miushock | and A, B remain intact across levels, i just want to change some numbers in C |
| 08:07.22 | miushock | say, duration of stun |
| 08:08.30 | miushock | do i have to make 3 different abilities in a way such as A->B->C1 A->B->C2 and A->B->C3 |
| 08:08.48 | miushock | and associate them with one 'Learn' dummy |
| 08:08.52 | JademusSreg | Er, same ability. Abilities which support multiple levels have arrays for many of their fields, so effects, costs, target filters, range and such can be different for each level. |
| 08:08.59 | JademusSreg | As for your request, entirely doable. |
| 08:10.29 | miushock | but 'behavior' does not have level field, does it? |
| 08:11.26 | JademusSreg | Oh, I've got a demo, iirc. |
| 08:11.51 | JademusSreg | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1049551/Starcraft%202/Kubi%20Heroes.SC2Map |
| 08:12.46 | miushock | ah wonderful |
| 08:12.57 | miushock | i'll dive in your demo instead then |
| 08:13.12 | JademusSreg | Basically, you use a requirement to check the ability level, check the requirement using a validator for effects, or the requirement field for other stuff. |
| 08:14.03 | JademusSreg | That allows one to use the same effect tree, and diverge using switches or other such effects, but yes, what you want is entirely doable. |
| 08:14.04 | miushock | i c... so basically make a multiplexer ability |
| 08:14.13 | JademusSreg | =D |
| 08:15.24 | miushock | so when working with the effect chain, one shall see it as a tree and apply switch whenever needed |
| 08:16.37 | JademusSreg | I refer to it as an effect tree generally, especially apt in this case though. |
| 08:17.32 | miushock | in ur map there're alot of <generic> behaviors |
| 08:17.47 | miushock | how are the duration of those controlled ? |
| 08:17.52 | JademusSreg | =D |
| 08:18.04 | miushock | i see you give .125 to most of them |
| 08:18.17 | miushock | so you apply multiple of those according to ability level? |
| 08:18.32 | JademusSreg | They stack to extend their duration. |
| 08:18.45 | miushock | i c |
| 08:18.54 | JademusSreg | So the same behavior can be used across multiple applications, effectively standardizing a debuff. |
| 08:19.48 | miushock | well i'll save my appreciation craps since i've been asking you on too many stuff |
| 08:20.21 | miushock | i'm going off to study your map now |
| 08:20.25 | miushock | good nite :) |
| 08:20.25 | JademusSreg | kk |
| 08:20.51 | ArcanePariah | Hmm... should have told him about templating, more elegant then switches |
| 08:21.24 | JademusSreg | Pretty sure I've got custom parents in that demo, as well. |
| 08:21.37 | ArcanePariah | Also, that remind me of a bug, the compare ability level validator is basically worthless because you can't check for level 1 abilites with it |
| 08:22.09 | ArcanePariah | Since level 1 = 0 in the validator, which ofc passes all the time, even if the unit doesn't have the ability... or at least last time I tried it was like that |
| 08:22.39 | JademusSreg | Hah. |
| 08:24.23 | JademusSreg | Requirements are more helpful in that capacity. |
| 08:24.57 | ArcanePariah | Yes, but reqs are a kludge to be honest... |
| 08:25.32 | JademusSreg | Since they offer unit-specific checking, it's not so bad. |
| 08:25.45 | ArcanePariah | True |
| 08:26.06 | JademusSreg | Global checking, that would be dreadful, putting everything in the global scope just to check it. |
| 08:27.26 | JademusSreg | Care to take a shot at the earlier pop quiz, Arc? |
| 08:27.41 | ArcanePariah | What was the earlier question? |
| 08:27.46 | JademusSreg | "What is the highest possible number of discrete points that may occupy a single terrain cell?" |
| 08:28.22 | ArcanePariah | Do you want an exact answer or a formula? |
| 08:28.51 | ArcanePariah | I'm going to wild guess and say... 1 |
| 08:29.00 | ArcanePariah | But that is almost certainly wrong |
| 08:29.27 | ArcanePariah | Boils down to, what is the size of a cell? |
| 08:29.32 | JademusSreg | Haha, give it a sincere try, no rush. |
| 08:29.44 | ArcanePariah | Well, do i get to consult the editor? |
| 08:29.52 | JademusSreg | Do whatever you like. |
| 08:31.27 | *** join/#sc2mapster turtles1 (~dave3@d27-99-20-87.bla802.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 08:33.58 | ArcanePariah | Welp, answer would have to 100 |
| 08:34.28 | ArcanePariah | Since points (at least in terrain) work in tenths, and thus 10 possible x and y values for a square of 1 |
| 08:34.53 | ArcanePariah | Then again, the point value is probably a fixed |
| 08:34.58 | JademusSreg | =D |
| 08:35.03 | ArcanePariah | Are we talking 2d points or 3d? |
| 08:35.04 | JademusSreg | Getting warmer. |
| 08:35.08 | JademusSreg | 2d |
| 08:40.01 | ArcanePariah | 10k^2 |
| 08:40.24 | ArcanePariah | Smallest point value the game will accept is .0001 |
| 08:40.28 | ArcanePariah | fixed* |
| 08:40.34 | JademusSreg | Nope. |
| 08:40.42 | JademusSreg | But you are thinking in the right direction. |
| 08:40.55 | ArcanePariah | Well, if input anything smaller, it rounds to 0 |
| 08:40.59 | JademusSreg | Don't trust the interface. |
| 08:41.21 | ArcanePariah | Will the compiler throw an error if given an unacceptable fixed value? |
| 08:41.34 | ArcanePariah | ie .00000000000001 |
| 08:42.29 | JademusSreg | Naw, I refer to the limit of the type itself. It's not a float, afterall. The smallest fractional fixed point value is determined by the 12 bits allocated to it. |
| 08:42.51 | ArcanePariah | Well, I didn't know how many bits reserved for the fractional part |
| 08:42.58 | ArcanePariah | Or even the width of a fixed |
| 08:43.08 | ArcanePariah | Which is what btw? |
| 08:43.18 | ArcanePariah | (Width of a fixed) |
| 08:43.23 | JademusSreg | 32 bits, 1 sign, 19 whole, 12 fractional. |
| 08:43.35 | ArcanePariah | Which make it different from a float.... how? |
| 08:44.51 | ArcanePariah | In any case, since its 12 bits, the answer is 2048^2 |
| 08:45.01 | ArcanePariah | so 2^24 |
| 08:45.16 | ArcanePariah | Which makes sense, 24 bit number |
| 08:45.23 | JademusSreg | 2^12 == 4096 |
| 08:45.39 | JademusSreg | So close, 4096^2 |
| 08:46.53 | ArcanePariah | Duh, I was using calc, and forgot about the 0 bit |
| 08:46.55 | ArcanePariah | and to add 1 |
| 08:46.58 | JademusSreg | Haha |
| 08:47.08 | ArcanePariah | So needed to go to 13th place |
| 08:47.17 | ArcanePariah | Off by 1 strikes again |
| 08:47.22 | ArcanePariah | :/ |
| 08:47.33 | JademusSreg | Classic. =D |
| 08:47.53 | ArcanePariah | In which case, that means the inner radius of a unit and unit radius also can be = 1/4096 |
| 08:48.04 | JademusSreg | Tried that before. |
| 08:48.11 | ArcanePariah | and thus that many units could occupy 1 terrain cell |
| 08:48.19 | JademusSreg | Radius values below 0.125 break. |
| 08:48.29 | ArcanePariah | Odd... |
| 08:48.37 | ArcanePariah | Probably a limit of the pathfidning engine? |
| 08:48.52 | ArcanePariah | Becomes too expensive to calculate pathing with that small of numbers |
| 08:48.56 | JademusSreg | Yeah, quite odd, but probably a good technical reason for the limitation. |
| 08:49.20 | *** join/#sc2mapster kingTD (~Administr@78-60-26-40.static.zebra.lt) |
| 08:49.38 | ArcanePariah | Well pathfinding is a bruteforce problem, since effectively it is the traveling salesman in concept |
| 08:49.48 | ArcanePariah | Sure you can use various algorithims |
| 08:49.56 | ArcanePariah | like Dijeskstras |
| 08:50.04 | ArcanePariah | (Totally misspelled that) |
| 08:50.37 | JademusSreg | I imagine if lower radius values were accepted, it would be too densely packed for units to pathfind through such masses, rather like the difference between fluid and solid. |
| 08:50.52 | ArcanePariah | Also pathfinding in concept is similar to flow equations and those (outside specific parameters) is also unsolved, Navier Stokes are a pita I hear |
| 08:50.57 | ArcanePariah | Yeah |
| 08:50.58 | JademusSreg | =D |
| 08:52.08 | JademusSreg | Probably also explains the very large values defined for dimensions in a map's terrain files. |
| 08:52.40 | ArcanePariah | In fact, Navier Stokes are one of the main open problems of math, million uSD to whoever solves them. As of right now, for a given equation, you can barely prove a solution exist and if it does, if it contains a smoothness (singularity) |
| 08:53.15 | ArcanePariah | One those math things you can throw unlimited computing at :D |
| 08:54.08 | JademusSreg | Sounds more interesting than A^3+B^3=C^3 or P=NP. =D |
| 08:54.25 | ArcanePariah | Well Navier stokes falls under P=NP |
| 08:54.41 | ArcanePariah | Take that back |
| 08:54.52 | ArcanePariah | it is one of the similar problems that is unsolved |
| 08:54.57 | ArcanePariah | P = NP is another one |
| 08:55.11 | ArcanePariah | One of the millenium Prize problems |
| 08:56.00 | JademusSreg | Anyway, figured that would be a fun quiz, potentially useful information for those interested in the engine's limits. |
| 08:56.16 | ArcanePariah | Well yeah, not as much an engine limit then a mathematical one |
| 08:56.52 | ArcanePariah | No game engine will even attempt to do stuff in finer resolution, they not interested in solving navier stokes in real time |
| 08:57.29 | ArcanePariah | As for the Cube thing, that has already been solved (Fermats last Theorem) |
| 08:57.36 | ArcanePariah | back in 96 |
| 08:57.41 | JademusSreg | Perhaps eventually I'll finish IDAing the client. Requires entirely too much mining to extract anything interesting, but may yield some value. |
| 08:58.22 | ArcanePariah | It's ironic, game engines I think are reaching the theoretical limits of what is practible |
| 08:58.55 | ArcanePariah | There is very little to add to actual game engines that does not take a disproportiante amount of resources |
| 08:59.14 | ArcanePariah | Which can safely be assumed to not be poessesed by most of the computing population |
| 09:00.43 | ArcanePariah | Graphics can be changed, but would require enormous resources for minimal gain, and more and more of it has to do with the source textures/models then anything else, which consumes increasing amounts of disk space |
| 09:01.03 | ArcanePariah | SC2 is pretty small relatively |
| 09:01.16 | JademusSreg | Hm, I think not, but I think you may approximate something accurate. Rather, the reverse, in that we develop new technologies which grow into the limits as we discover them. |
| 09:01.30 | turtles1 | What about moves towards raytrace graphics and graphics cards that can do raytracing? |
| 09:01.37 | turtles1 | Or is that no longer in the works? |
| 09:01.51 | ArcanePariah | turtles1 that is indeed happening, but requires a complete overhaul of how gpus work |
| 09:02.04 | ArcanePariah | since it is fundamentally different then rastarizing |
| 09:03.24 | ArcanePariah | And GPU's can do raytracing now, and it looks beautiful, but it comes with a massive performance hit. The last demo I saw about 3 years ago had a simple scene rendered with rastars and then with raytracing, the raytacing one took 100+ times as much gpu power, (its framerate was 1/100th or worse) |
| 09:03.27 | JademusSreg | Not that it doesn't happen, but developing a technology within an unknown problem space bumbles into technological and/or mathematical limitations, whereas developing within a defined problem space allows one to build into limitations. |
| 09:03.53 | ArcanePariah | Well I do agree we are doing more and more of the latter |
| 09:04.11 | ArcanePariah | Since CS has done a fairly good job of exploring problem spaces and determining the limits |
| 09:04.32 | ArcanePariah | Like game AI for instance, it fundamentally is a memory/time tradeoff decision tree, nothing more |
| 09:04.49 | ArcanePariah | All you can do is weight the tree or use more memory to enumerate more possible states |
| 09:05.54 | ArcanePariah | Now we could do non deterministic logic for an AI, allowing it to think more like a human, preemptively removing entries parts of a decision tree, and using more probablistic logic |
| 09:06.02 | turtles1 | But AI is still pretty crap. Take SC2 AI for instance. All that computing power and it still has to use money hacks and map hacks to win |
| 09:06.47 | ArcanePariah | turtles1 agreed, because it is scripted by a human. You can NEVER provide a "good" AI, because a good AI you would play against, beat, it would store all states experienced, repeat a few dozen times and the AI would crush you every game |
| 09:06.59 | turtles1 | For chess the descission tree is narrow enough that a computer can stomp a person into the ground, but using the same techniques in RTS I haven't seen an AI nearly as good |
| 09:07.10 | ArcanePariah | Fundamentally different |
| 09:07.16 | G0A | ArcanePariah Moore's law will always ensure new possibilities for game engines. |
| 09:07.33 | ArcanePariah | Chess is symmetric (except for 1 part) and is perfect information |
| 09:07.38 | ArcanePariah | Both side see everything |
| 09:08.02 | ArcanePariah | RTS by their very natures have assymetry in positon/strength and infomration |
| 09:08.13 | ArcanePariah | RTS reward luck a LOT more |
| 09:08.18 | ArcanePariah | and blind guessing |
| 09:08.45 | turtles1 | I don't see how asymetry makes it any different. You can start a chess game asymetrically and the chess AI will work just as well |
| 09:09.02 | ArcanePariah | Chess is assymetric in only 1 aspect, White going first |
| 09:09.09 | ArcanePariah | Other then that, it is symmetric |
| 09:09.22 | ArcanePariah | RTS are never symmetric in any aspect from the get go |
| 09:09.31 | ArcanePariah | except maybe the map layout |
| 09:09.39 | turtles1 | some chess AI's will let you start at an arbitrary point |
| 09:09.53 | turtles1 | you define the game state and it will go from there |
| 09:10.01 | ArcanePariah | Which ironically makes it easier for the Chess AI to win, since you have simplified its decision tree considerably |
| 09:10.16 | ArcanePariah | By eliminating entire subtrees of possible game states |
| 09:10.42 | turtles1 | so you can have a chess AI play an asymetrical game of chess. You just make it start without a queen or something like that |
| 09:10.44 | ArcanePariah | Ofc you can define a game state that leaves the AI almost no chance to win, in which case the AI will easily recognize that and forfeit |
| 09:10.46 | turtles1 | yes |
| 09:11.25 | ArcanePariah | Also chess is easier to solve since the decision tree is weighted |
| 09:11.37 | ArcanePariah | Moving a queen will always be more powerful a move then moving a pawn |
| 09:11.50 | turtles1 | not nescessarily |
| 09:12.01 | ArcanePariah | True, not always, but most of the time it will be |
| 09:12.44 | turtles1 | One of the rules of "how to play chess 101" states that you should leave the queen alone early in the game |
| 09:13.00 | turtles1 | it is agreed upon that moving your queen early in the game is a bad move |
| 09:13.10 | ArcanePariah | Yes, because the starting board position heavily limits the power of the queen |
| 09:13.23 | ArcanePariah | She scales to the late game, so to speak |
| 09:13.24 | turtles1 | unanimously agreed upon by grandmasters and chess AI's |
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| 09:13.38 | ArcanePariah | Benefits from more pieces being removed from the board |
| 09:13.56 | ArcanePariah | I'm going to wild guess and say moving a queen should occur 10+ moves in |
| 09:14.14 | ArcanePariah | When at least a few pawns and a couple pieces have been taken |
| 09:14.35 | turtles1 | the descission tree is weighed more by your control of the board (ie map control) and control of prime real estate on the board (ie watch towers etcetc) |
| 09:14.49 | ArcanePariah | True, but the pieces themselves affect that |
| 09:14.55 | ArcanePariah | by the various ways they move |
| 09:15.13 | ArcanePariah | Hence why certain pieces are valued more then others |
| 09:15.14 | turtles1 | But I haven't seen an AI that effectively does the same in an RTS |
| 09:15.50 | turtles1 | SC2 AI will scout and counter your units but it still plays a really poor game of SC2 |
| 09:15.55 | ArcanePariah | Well... the first problem with makign a good AI in an RTS is you must cripple it from the get go, since by definition it will have perfect macro/micro if left alone |
| 09:16.07 | ArcanePariah | Yes, the various difficulties have capped APM |
| 09:16.19 | turtles1 | hardest AI has to cheat to win |
| 09:16.25 | ArcanePariah | max possible for an AI in SC2 is 2700, but that is only the insane AI's |
| 09:16.32 | turtles1 | it gets 1.5 x the mining rate as you do |
| 09:16.33 | ArcanePariah | Yes |
| 09:16.47 | ArcanePariah | Oh, the hardest one has maphack |
| 09:16.53 | turtles1 | that too |
| 09:17.25 | turtles1 | but it still plays poorly at SC2 |
| 09:17.40 | ArcanePariah | But even if you remove those 2, the reality is the AI does not employ heuristics of any kind, thus it can not handle variable tactics such as cheese (Oracle proxy, cannon rush, etc.) |
| 09:17.54 | turtles1 | I don't think it uses a descission tree like a chess AI does |
| 09:18.00 | ArcanePariah | It can't |
| 09:18.02 | ArcanePariah | Not exactly |
| 09:18.11 | ArcanePariah | It does use a tree, but a massively prunned one |
| 09:18.32 | ArcanePariah | There is no way for the AI to enumerate all game states, it would take dozens of GB of memory |
| 09:18.45 | ArcanePariah | chess has a relatively tiny amount of game states |
| 09:18.51 | turtles1 | due to it being too computationally intensive to work, I assume? |
| 09:19.06 | JademusSreg | Could just make some learning AIs, run on ridiculous speed, destroy all actors, let those motherfuckers run wild, see what happens. |
| 09:19.13 | ArcanePariah | Yes, the AI in an RTS can not pause the game to compute the optimum solution |
| 09:19.24 | ArcanePariah | so it would have to precompute all possible scenarios |
| 09:19.32 | ArcanePariah | which is impossible (on a techincal level) |
| 09:19.33 | turtles1 | yes, chess descission tree, each move would have maybe 30 branches to investigate |
| 09:19.46 | turtles1 | but RTS would have bazzillions |
| 09:19.53 | ArcanePariah | And with decent algos, many of those can easily be discarded |
| 09:19.53 | JademusSreg | Naw, lrn 2 heuristics and pattern recognition. |
| 09:20.02 | JademusSreg | Don't need to solve it academically, sheesh. |
| 09:20.02 | *** join/#sc2mapster shintah (bebble@h-123-172-90.a336.priv.bahnhof.se) |
| 09:20.22 | ArcanePariah | Comes back to the tech limitation, you would need massive databanks to store the results and then apply them |
| 09:20.55 | ArcanePariah | Since you have maybe 1 second to determine the optimum move for all units |
| 09:21.02 | ArcanePariah | and have to do so every second |
| 09:21.20 | turtles1 | yes, so a "chess like" descission tree for RTS is out of the question computationally for the moment (probably indefinitely) |
| 09:21.27 | ArcanePariah | Yes |
| 09:21.59 | ArcanePariah | Moreover, the decision tree is indeterminaite due to asymmetric information, there are too many unknowns, starting with every single point on the map under the fog of war |
| 09:22.21 | ArcanePariah | Let alone the unit/structures and their placements of each opponent |
| 09:22.31 | ArcanePariah | which are also variable depending on race |
| 09:23.09 | turtles1 | You could factor in all the "possible enemy activity" which would make the state space explode even more exponentially |
| 09:23.39 | ArcanePariah | Now the SC2 AI CAN do some very rudimentary heuristics since their is a trigger function in the AI section that deals with "Last Seen Units" |
| 09:23.59 | ArcanePariah | But yes, the problem space is unbounded |
| 09:24.09 | ArcanePariah | and thus not deterministically solvable |
| 09:24.10 | turtles1 | my point being it would be cool to see an AI be able to play a good game (even if it does need map hacks) so it would be cool if someone found a way to make that happen |
| 09:24.22 | ArcanePariah | You could in theory do so |
| 09:24.33 | ArcanePariah | But it would take a major effort to code up |
| 09:24.57 | turtles1 | how though? we agree that full state space exploration is impossible |
| 09:25.00 | ArcanePariah | Since it would involved a ton of data editor validators tied to tactical AI commands related to moving and target finding |
| 09:25.12 | ArcanePariah | You said "good" not "perfect" |
| 09:25.12 | turtles1 | the only other way seems to be to do it in a "human logic" kind of way |
| 09:25.25 | ArcanePariah | It would be impossible to do a perfect AI |
| 09:25.34 | ArcanePariah | But to do a good one could be done with a fair amount of effort |
| 09:25.48 | JademusSreg | Again, have it make decisions based on the information it possesses, have it seek out information, forget about ever solving, foreals. |
| 09:25.59 | turtles1 | ie. This space is "open", this space is "narrow", three bases are better than two etcetc |
| 09:26.03 | *** join/#sc2mapster Bommes (~Bommes@ipkn-70.koenigsnet.rwth-aachen.de) |
| 09:26.47 | ArcanePariah | Given the AI commands present, you can instruct the AI to scout, expand, etc. So based on scouting infomration and combat information stored in variables arrays (large ones) you could create a fairly comprehensive response plan for the AI |
| 09:27.04 | *** part/#sc2mapster G0A (~hookah604@91.83.10.97.pool.invitel.hu) |
| 09:27.36 | ArcanePariah | The main issue with a "good" AI is that it could be programmed to have perfect micro, which would be problematic since ti would render a fair amount of player ability worthless |
| 09:27.51 | turtles1 | mostly trying to counter to this statement "There is very little to add to actual game engines that does not take a disproportiante amount of resources" |
| 09:28.06 | ArcanePariah | In this case, the resource would be development time |
| 09:28.08 | turtles1 | I'm yet to see an RTS with a feasable AI |
| 09:28.15 | ArcanePariah | It would take months to develope a good one |
| 09:28.26 | turtles1 | ahhhhh, *those* kind of resources |
| 09:28.41 | ArcanePariah | resources = computational or temporal |
| 09:28.42 | turtles1 | I was thinking computational time resources |
| 09:28.47 | *** join/#sc2mapster G0A (~hookah604@91.83.10.97.pool.invitel.hu) |
| 09:28.47 | ArcanePariah | It can be either |
| 09:29.03 | ArcanePariah | Ultimately all software development is a tradeoff of the 3 |
| 09:29.25 | ArcanePariah | Good Fast Cheap, choose 2 |
| 09:30.12 | ArcanePariah | More memory = more correct answer, more CPU power = faster answer, more money = more skilled developer who can write it faster while not burdening 1 or the other |
| 09:30.20 | ArcanePariah | 1 or the other 2 |
| 09:30.45 | ArcanePariah | more time = better developed software that uses less memory or cpu |
| 09:31.05 | ArcanePariah | Which basically sums up my current development, all I do is mostly refine the current code for my map |
| 09:31.22 | ArcanePariah | so 1 year of effort, and heavily reduced CPU and memory usage |
| 09:31.43 | turtles1 | cool. What map, may I ask? |
| 09:31.48 | ArcanePariah | Night of the Dead |
| 09:32.07 | ArcanePariah | Not my map per se, I played it for 2.5 years, then volunteered to help code |
| 09:32.13 | turtles1 | ahh, I've played it. |
| 09:32.15 | ArcanePariah | Been doing that for the last year |
| 09:32.30 | turtles1 | are there a few variations? or is it the one map? |
| 09:32.50 | ArcanePariah | Well, it is one map, but the gameplay is structured to have 3 storylines to pick from |
| 09:33.01 | ArcanePariah | But yes, one map |
| 09:33.23 | ArcanePariah | (Which given what I know now, would have been nice to been made as 5 diff map files...) |
| 09:33.56 | turtles1 | cool! it's awesome that you managed to skim so much computational time from your work |
| 09:34.09 | ArcanePariah | Perfect world for me would have been to place all data assets in one mod, all art assets in another, build each story in its own mapfile and merge the results into a master map file for publishing |
| 09:34.14 | ArcanePariah | Mmhmm |
| 09:34.31 | ArcanePariah | Mostly from code refactoring and rewritting stuff from triggers into data |
| 09:34.56 | ArcanePariah | Since the previous dev was less familar with the concept of the data editor, so they bruteforced more stuff in triggers |
| 09:35.02 | turtles1 | yes, well. knowing then what you know now... |
| 09:35.21 | ArcanePariah | Thankfully, will be able to apply it to the sequel |
| 09:35.21 | turtles1 | most projects start smaller where shortcuts like that don't seem so bad |
| 09:36.00 | ArcanePariah | Yes, the bane of all software, make it work, hacked together and then watch as it groans under the weight of poor design, and becomes a kludgey mess |
| 09:36.48 | ArcanePariah | Which, as much as I despise it, recognize that software is not made in a vaccuum, that it is a tool, a means to an end for most people. Also... JOB SECURITY :D |
| 09:36.54 | G0A | does range actor detects if its linked with a weapon and the weapon has bonus range behavior buff? |
| 09:37.20 | turtles1 | starting out. Hope to get into writting code. Being told that in a class is one thing. Going back and extending your own codebase that you wrote a year ago and seing how horribly you did it is another entirely |
| 09:37.34 | ArcanePariah | G0A excellent question, I do not know if the actor determines the range at compile or at runtime |
| 09:38.34 | ArcanePariah | turtles1 yes indeed, I once read a story to that effect, where a coder was asked to clean up some code, was pissed at how crappy it was, asked a coworker who worte such garbage and having the coworker reply "You did, 6 months ago" |
| 09:39.04 | ArcanePariah | And I do have such moments, often. Some parts of NotD code I have rewritten 2 or even 3 times |
| 09:39.23 | ArcanePariah | But some have argued software, like other creative endeavors, is not something you build, but grow |
| 09:39.38 | JademusSreg | turt, thus the value of learning development methodologies which emphasize readability and similarly readable structure. =D |
| 09:39.45 | ArcanePariah | ^ |
| 09:40.28 | JademusSreg | Which is to say readable, understandable code is maintainable code. |
| 09:40.33 | ArcanePariah | You will learn that the most important aspect for software is the same tenets of modern engineering, that having flexability and sanity (readability) is of the utmost import |
| 09:40.46 | ArcanePariah | What use is a blueprint if no one can understand it? |
| 09:40.56 | ArcanePariah | All software is a blueprint |
| 09:41.05 | turtles1 | Like I said. Sitting in a university class listening to a lecturer say that is one thing. having to rewrite your own code is another entirely more convincing way of learning that. |
| 09:41.33 | ArcanePariah | Yes, and unlike any other engineering disiciple, there are no rules or limitations to stop you from doing something poorly |
| 09:41.33 | G0A | :) |
| 09:41.44 | ArcanePariah | Success G0A ? |
| 09:41.51 | G0A | no, |
| 09:41.52 | JademusSreg | Certainly true of many programming languages. |
| 09:42.03 | G0A | I dont even have editor open |
| 09:42.06 | ArcanePariah | JademusSreg, not many, all languages |
| 09:42.13 | G0A | just playing my map and was thinking about it... |
| 09:42.19 | turtles1 | but I like the perspectives you guys are giving. "All software is a blueprint", "software, like other creative endeavors, is not something you build, but grow" |
| 09:42.26 | ArcanePariah | Since a Von Neumman machine has only 1 fundamental rule |
| 09:42.29 | ArcanePariah | On, or Off |
| 09:42.37 | ArcanePariah | The rest is human imposed rules |
| 09:42.50 | JademusSreg | It's an argument of degree. I remember when python was touted as founded on the principle "there should be only one right, obvious way to do something". =D |
| 09:43.16 | ArcanePariah | turtles1 an EXCELLENT book to read to understand these concepts is THe Mythical Man Month by Frederick Brooks |
| 09:43.26 | ArcanePariah | He explains this stuff far better then I can |
| 09:44.16 | G0A | or just experience it:D |
| 09:44.26 | ArcanePariah | I think those who touted such things didn't read Mythical Man Month.... |
| 09:44.36 | Stewox | hello |
| 09:44.40 | ArcanePariah | Programming is an abstraction of an abstraction |
| 09:44.43 | Stewox | what type of genre is TUG = |
| 09:44.45 | Stewox | ? |
| 09:44.59 | ArcanePariah | We program to be a tool in a model, that usually is a model of a real world system |
| 09:45.18 | ArcanePariah | Thus it will never be done, or completely right |
| 09:45.40 | ArcanePariah | Arguably, we are the biggest suckers, we are in a rat race |
| 09:45.53 | turtles1 | lol. So far the only way I seem to be able to learn things is to learn them acidemically, ignore it, get burned by experience and then actually believe what was previously learned |
| 09:46.06 | ArcanePariah | Ahh, that is to be human :D |
| 09:47.31 | turtles1 | thanks for the suggestion, added to list of books to read |
| 09:48.46 | ArcanePariah | One choice quote from the book that decribes much of software failures "A woman can make a baby in 9 months, but 9 woman can not make a baby 1 month" |
| 09:48.48 | JademusSreg | Freedom entails the capacity to do bad shit, and necessarily responsibility for that freedom. One can abuse operator overloads and silent dependencies and couple all the code units like a damn spiderweb, but don't do that. =D |
| 09:49.05 | ArcanePariah | JademusSreg.... /wrist |
| 09:49.22 | ArcanePariah | A pox on those who I shall inherit code from that does |
| 09:49.25 | ArcanePariah | that* |
| 09:49.46 | JademusSreg | Hahaha |
| 09:49.54 | *** join/#sc2mapster ElectricPrism (~Loren@unaffiliated/electricprism) |
| 09:50.54 | *** join/#sc2mapster MoonEater916 (~Thunderbi@39.sub-70-211-67.myvzw.com) |
| 09:58.10 | *** join/#sc2mapster ElectricPrism (~Loren@unaffiliated/electricprism) |
| 10:06.19 | *** join/#sc2mapster Bommes (~Bommes@ipkn-70.koenigsnet.rwth-aachen.de) |
| 10:19.12 | *** join/#sc2mapster Zolden (Zolden@88.135.4.202) |
| 10:23.34 | Stewox | hey guys |
| 10:23.44 | turtles1 | hi |
| 10:24.06 | Stewox | anyone knows how is the experimental map named in SC2 ? |
| 10:24.42 | Stewox | camapaign |
| 10:24.49 | Stewox | the outpost |
| 10:24.56 | Stewox | when you first see hybrids |
| 10:25.10 | turtles1 | ohhhh... |
| 10:25.13 | Stewox | the station, the bonus hidden map |
| 10:25.15 | turtles1 | WOL or HOTS? |
| 10:25.17 | Stewox | WOL |
| 10:26.14 | Stewox | when you go to korhal you unlock it by destroying some tech station |
| 10:26.29 | Stewox | then you unlock the map |
| 10:26.32 | turtles1 | Do you know what the game level was called? |
| 10:26.35 | Stewox | no |
| 10:26.57 | Stewox | im having editor open |
| 10:27.07 | Stewox | and Im selecting some Cliffs and textures |
| 10:27.08 | turtles1 | If you open the editor and go into File->Open->campaign there are all the campaign maps there |
| 10:27.11 | Stewox | and I like to use that |
| 10:27.16 | Stewox | well that's the point |
| 10:27.25 | Stewox | I have to close the current stuff down to open that |
| 10:27.33 | Stewox | and I don't even know what it's called anyways |
| 10:27.44 | turtles1 | you can see a preview of the map |
| 10:28.04 | turtles1 | if you know what the map looked like you could compare to the preview image |
| 10:28.06 | Stewox | is it Castanar ? |
| 10:30.02 | Stewox | i think it's THorner05S |
| 10:30.05 | Stewox | but |
| 10:30.10 | Stewox | what's the terrain type ... |
| 10:30.15 | Stewox | need to open it up then |
| 10:30.18 | Stewox | no other way to know |
| 10:39.56 | Stewox | it's castanar allright! |
| 10:58.41 | *** join/#sc2mapster Tolkfan (~Thunderbi@host-89-230-244-50.nowydwor.mm.pl) |
| 11:02.33 | *** join/#sc2mapster Bibendus (Bibendus@ip-80-249-36-63.static.adsl.cheapnet.it) |
| 11:04.40 | Stewox | for the guys who are in US, look at what might be flying above your house soon, another type of UAV http://static.prisonplanet.com/p/images/november2013/251113drone.jpg |
| 11:05.39 | Stewox | made by Northrop Grumman |
| 11:06.24 | turtles1 | Hard to tell the scale. How big is it? |
| 11:07.39 | Grum | man |
| 11:09.06 | Stewox | turtles1. it's sitting on a truck trailer, you can see the wheels a bit |
| 11:09.11 | Stewox | it's very small |
| 11:09.52 | Stewox | it's secret btw, it's been leaked |
| 11:10.09 | Stewox | http://www.infowars.com/revealed-northrop-grummans-unmarked-gray-helicopter-drone/ |
| 11:10.22 | turtles1 | oh, didn't realize that was a truck trailer. Just looks like a platform of some kind at first sight |
| 11:11.35 | turtles1 | so... should I expect a knock on the door now? |
| 11:24.21 | *** join/#sc2mapster ElectricPrism1 (~Loren@76-228-77-43.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 11:27.24 | *** join/#sc2mapster ElectricPrism (~Loren@unaffiliated/electricprism) |
| 11:50.21 | *** join/#sc2mapster Bibendus| (Bibendus@ip-80-249-36-63.static.adsl.cheapnet.it) |
| 11:55.30 | kingTD | Zolden http://pasteboard.s3.amazonaws.com/images/1FQV3Lmt.png |
| 11:55.36 | kingTD | blue one didnt build towers |
| 11:55.54 | kingTD | so needed to kill waves twice |
| 11:56.22 | kingTD | and surely only resource i had was farms |
| 11:56.33 | kingTD | thank god some mana was around too |
| 11:58.02 | kingTD | and in other side people where kill the most of the shit that i couldnt |
| 11:59.17 | Stewox | turtles1 well ... the knock on the door would be when they come for your guns and gold, so that's kind of too late by then, you need to prepare for that possibility |
| 11:59.41 | kingTD | Zolden with Mages holding first wave is too hard |
| 12:00.06 | kingTD | one send and you are fucked |
| 12:00.22 | turtles1 | Stewox: noted. Off to booby trap front door. BRB |
| 12:00.46 | kingTD | with other builders you at least can hold off with building more or just have almost enough to survive it |
| 12:04.17 | *** join/#sc2mapster Ahli (~asdaaaaa@dslb-092-073-201-001.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 12:39.25 | Zolden | kingTD now you can snipe acid, and also it doesn't -1 anymore (zealot does instead) |
| 12:39.39 | kingTD | cool |
| 12:39.45 | Zolden | kingTD and maybe i'll up something about sproute |
| 12:39.58 | kingTD | sproute? |
| 12:40.06 | Zolden | mercyless |
| 12:40.18 | Zolden | and your pmg doesn't let me see it |
| 12:40.19 | kingTD | btw on the edge cliff resources still happening |
| 12:40.26 | kingTD | pmh? |
| 12:40.36 | Zolden | yea, i'll fix |
| 12:40.46 | Zolden | HTTP 403 Forbidden |
| 12:40.55 | Zolden | that's what your png do to me |
| 12:41.01 | kingTD | works for me |
| 12:42.24 | kingTD | Zolden http://www.sc2mapster.com/media/attachments/45/443/1FQV3Lmt.png |
| 12:52.31 | *** join/#sc2mapster ElectricPrism1 (~Loren@76-228-77-43.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 12:56.31 | *** join/#sc2mapster ElectricPrism (~Loren@unaffiliated/electricprism) |
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| 13:06.18 | *** join/#sc2mapster ElectricPrism1 (~Loren@76-228-77-43.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 13:23.04 | *** join/#sc2mapster Moorhsum (~scraft@dsl-kpobrasgw1-54fac5-136.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 13:29.30 | *** join/#sc2mapster sc2println (~flo@2a02:810d:1680:60a:f66d:4ff:fe93:2e29) |
| 13:36.36 | kingTD | hmm this one was quite easy with Ranged Builder transition to Queens http://www.sc2mapster.com/media/attachments/45/444/Zoldigen.jpg |
| 13:36.42 | kingTD | Frozen queens |
| 13:39.06 | kingTD | Zolden so when u going to make Gold mines worth talking or upgrading at all? |
| 13:39.39 | kingTD | one noobish player in that match just expanded to get those gold mines upgraded in my territory |
| 13:43.07 | *** join/#sc2mapster Delphinium (jifengxian@60.166.123.114) |
| 13:45.50 | Delphinium | http://www.sc2mapster.com/media/attachments/45/445/1.gif |
| 13:46.43 | Zolden | kingTD 253 gold? |
| 13:46.47 | Delphinium | I made a text model contains all English words and numbers, maybe useful to show in game tips or similar things |
| 13:49.20 | kingTD | Zolden 253 gold? |
| 13:49.41 | kingTD | ohhh |
| 13:49.57 | kingTD | well he just upgrade his mines and sent units it seems |
| 13:50.08 | kingTD | had 6 crack elfs all game |
| 13:50.47 | Zolden | lol |
| 13:50.50 | Zolden | fun |
| 13:50.55 | kingTD | yeah |
| 13:50.56 | kingTD | very |
| 13:54.18 | *** join/#sc2mapster Tomura (~Tomura@HSI-KBW-149-172-117-81.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de) |
| 13:59.40 | kingTD | in 3D :O http://www.moddb.com/games/the-settlers-ii-10th-anniversary/images/screenshot2 |
| 14:05.12 | *** join/#sc2mapster Thenarden (~Miranda@HSI-KBW-078-043-227-063.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de) |
| 14:05.40 | *** part/#sc2mapster turtles1 (~dave3@d27-99-20-87.bla802.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 14:23.26 | G0A | kingTD it has an expansion too |
| 14:24.33 | kingTD | i c |
| 14:32.51 | *** part/#sc2mapster G0A (~hookah604@91.83.10.97.pool.invitel.hu) |
| 14:33.18 | *** join/#sc2mapster G0A (~hookah604@91.83.10.97) |
| 14:46.17 | Zolden | can I use "fuck" as a unit name's part and don't have map banned? |
| 14:53.57 | Stewox | no idea |
| 14:54.13 | Stewox | thank god my map doesn't require those |
| 14:54.22 | Stewox | but it would be mindblowing for many people |
| 14:54.25 | Stewox | will |
| 15:09.17 | kingTD | Zolden well it will be put down for sure |
| 15:15.00 | Zolden | probably ;/ |
| 15:18.53 | *** join/#sc2mapster Ownage (proprietar@86.144.200.192.client.dyn.strong-sf75.as22781.net) |
| 15:22.30 | *** join/#sc2mapster ElectricPrism (~Loren@unaffiliated/electricprism) |
| 15:22.39 | Ahli | just use "fork" instead ;D |
| 15:41.18 | kingTD | Zolden how about adding a little bonus g when clearing the wave? |
| 15:42.09 | Zolden | kingTD isn't it now good enough to clear a wave? |
| 15:42.32 | Zolden | difference in gold between leakers and non-leakers is big, i'd rather reduce it somehow |
| 15:42.35 | kingTD | well to encourage people build towers more than expanding economy |
| 15:42.59 | Zolden | i'll just add cost growing for farms too |
| 15:43.08 | Zolden | maybe faster then for mines |
| 15:43.27 | Zolden | it will a bit reduce effeciency of ecoing |
| 15:43.35 | Zolden | then something else |
| 15:43.40 | Zolden | if won't be enough |
| 15:44.33 | kingTD | wtf somekind of summer strom outside :/ |
| 15:45.55 | kingTD | :( |
| 15:52.17 | Zolden | summer? |
| 15:52.24 | Zolden | what does it do? |
| 15:52.36 | Zolden | lightnings? |
| 15:53.13 | Zolden | here is deep winter, all white |
| 15:56.17 | G0A | fuck shit quark coin is worth 10 times more since 4 days ago when I wanted to buy but I couldnt cause stupid bank |
| 15:56.58 | Zolden | sue it |
| 15:57.13 | G0A | I have a feeling bitcoin wont be the no1 crypto currency by time. |
| 15:57.54 | Zolden | shouldn't n1 stay n1? |
| 16:03.23 | G0A | btw Zolden, people having party at our common neighbor, Kiev. |
| 16:04.45 | Zolden | yes, they party hard |
| 16:04.50 | kingTD | Lightings heavy raining |
| 16:05.32 | Zolden | hope they withdraw the reign of fuckers |
| 16:06.08 | G0A | also, I finished reading Ubik, it seems bit overrated.... |
| 16:06.34 | kingTD | Well that was cool. could make every turn sun idol http://www.sc2mapster.com/media/attachments/45/448/Zoldqqq.jpg |
| 16:06.52 | Tomura | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70741181/Recordings/test_WIP3.mp3 |
| 16:06.52 | Tomura | made some progress on that trailer music thing I made |
| 16:06.54 | Zolden | i can imagine that high expectaion may lower the impression |
| 16:07.28 | G0A | yeah |
| 16:08.03 | G0A | KingTD wait me |
| 16:08.13 | kingTD | waitting |
| 16:08.20 | Zolden | and me |
| 16:08.23 | Zolden | i join too! |
| 16:08.28 | G0A | invite |
| 16:09.21 | kingTD | Zolden still needing to make winning team available to continue playing feature |
| 16:10.39 | G0A | that would spoil the end and would make the game less popular... |
| 16:12.04 | kingTD | Zolden queens dont do much of reduced damage to crystalic like Ranged do so it works best |
| 16:12.26 | kingTD | G0A now cant see how far I can get cause they dying |
| 16:13.09 | kingTD | and if you would be spoiled you always can go play again |
| 16:31.37 | *** join/#sc2mapster ElectricPrism1 (~Loren@76-228-77-43.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 16:33.26 | sc2println | Has anyone tried to make a model with turrent behavior yet? |
| 16:36.28 | *** join/#sc2mapster ElectricPrism (~Loren@unaffiliated/electricprism) |
| 16:46.47 | Ahli | I need to defend all 4 lanes in this game :X |
| 16:47.46 | Zolden | sc2println i have |
| 16:47.48 | Zolden | and it worked |
| 16:48.05 | Zolden | but I FUCKED ALL DAY to compensate all the bugs related to turret behavior |
| 16:48.15 | sc2println | Zolden: oO |
| 16:48.22 | Zolden | i made it work finally, but it's the most bugged part of art tools |
| 16:49.02 | sc2println | It looks like the m3 data structure allows quite a range of options for turrents |
| 16:49.41 | sc2println | It seems that you can define and name a turrent behavior |
| 16:49.55 | sc2println | and then you can add a list of something to it |
| 16:50.09 | sc2println | which seems to define a rotation |
| 16:53.39 | G0A | Zolden http://pbrd.co/1jYb2gn |
| 16:56.52 | Ahli | how can someone send an acidling in first round? |
| 17:18.06 | G0A | join Ahli |
| 17:18.39 | Zolden | Ahli if they are ranged |
| 17:18.45 | Zolden | they have metal at start |
| 17:18.55 | Zolden | but we can snipe acid with a drill |
| 17:19.12 | Zolden | G0A strange |
| 17:19.35 | Zolden | anyone has what G0A linked? |
| 17:22.06 | Ahli | that's a problem with indirect shadows |
| 17:22.26 | Ahli | pink texture => change indirect shadows => pink texture is gone |
| 17:25.04 | A1win | yay now I got duplicate detection in controls configuration, unsets any key that has the same hotkey as the one you just set |
| 17:25.26 | A1win | also shows bright red "Add Hotkey" text if an input has no hotkeys |
| 17:31.36 | G0A | Ahli that works with splats too? |
| 17:37.59 | Ahli | I assume... I had that problem once in my diablo map with rogue's hair. Then gameheart had that problem with the texture of zolden's decal model during redbull battlegrounds... changing indirect shadows fixed it in both cases |
| 17:45.45 | Zolden | during redbull battlegrounds? so millions saw that fail? |
| 17:46.05 | Zolden | Ahli and how to change indirect shadows? |
| 17:46.11 | Zolden | can it be done in cutscene? |
| 17:47.00 | Ahli | player needs to do that in graphic options :S |
| 17:50.39 | G0A | is it graphics->shadows? |
| 18:21.22 | *** join/#sc2mapster Stewox (~chatzilla@cpe-86-58-34-166.static.triera.net) |
| 18:42.44 | *** join/#sc2mapster Zandose (Zandose@24-246-78-228.cable.teksavvy.com) |
| 18:45.14 | Zandose | anything new? |
| 18:52.42 | Stewox | well --- |
| 18:52.45 | Stewox | ... |
| 18:55.06 | Zandose | that much huh |
| 18:57.28 | Stewox | on the sc2 note Taeja won dreamhack, on drudge's note a major hollywood actor from fast and furious died, on mike adams' note a town of 30.000 people in Australia got rid of Flouride from their water supply, on free speech's note Jordan Maxwell has resurfaced http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3uOyhFy4Lo |
| 18:59.09 | Stewox | oh and on the mainstream dinosaur snotnose media's note, a large train derailment in bronx |
| 18:59.36 | Stewox | almost forgot about MSM oh my .... |
| 19:00.08 | Zandose | good to know |
| 19:01.56 | Stewox | isn't it's funny that a government false flag operation has the same name that the movie Fast and Furious has ... |
| 19:04.43 | kingTD | Zolden those evil conjurer ffs |
| 19:05.18 | Zolden | they rape? |
| 19:06.03 | G0A | yeah |
| 19:08.11 | Zolden | ok, nerfed them slightly |
| 19:08.48 | Zolden | by 2% |
| 19:08.54 | Zolden | or 3 |
| 19:29.33 | Zolden | in squad td they increase income for upping main building defences |
| 19:29.38 | Zolden | maybe i should od it too? |
| 19:29.44 | Zolden | because now ppl rarely up anything |
| 19:35.58 | A1win | hmm... only missing score screen now + some abilities and then all I need are name, models, and loading screen |
| 19:36.23 | A1win | huge would-be-nice list though |
| 19:36.51 | Zolden | name it "A" |
| 19:37.13 | A1win | A* |
| 19:37.27 | A1win | (which has nothing to do with the algorithm) |
| 19:37.29 | Zolden | or "- - - - *" |
| 19:38.13 | Zolden | or even "O - - - - *O" |
| 19:38.40 | A1win | here's a random word generator that I made with PHP some years ago: http://nikita.tnnet.fi/~a1win/word/ |
| 19:39.16 | A1win | never generated a useful word, thouogh |
| 19:39.18 | A1win | :P |
| 19:39.27 | Zolden | Homymo |
| 19:39.33 | Zolden | sounds useful |
| 19:40.18 | *** join/#sc2mapster ArcanePariah (~ArcanePar@99-8-167-11.lightspeed.futnca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 19:40.43 | Zolden | Tomura nice music |
| 19:41.04 | Zolden | Tomura is it for your game or just for fun? |
| 19:41.20 | Tomura | just for fun |
| 19:42.03 | Tomura | I don't think I'll do enough progress with my game to use this one for a trailer |
| 19:44.16 | Tomura | there isn't even a complete prototype |
| 19:44.42 | Zolden | you're talking about that 3rd person ghost aiming shit? |
| 19:44.52 | Tomura | no |
| 19:44.55 | Tomura | my UDK stuff |
| 19:45.06 | Tomura | something I'm planning with Xaragoth |
| 19:45.34 | Ahli | twodie must hack :D so much income |
| 19:45.47 | Tomura | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qnhmoQjLek |
| 19:46.05 | Tomura | this in First Person with proper gunplay |
| 19:46.25 | Tomura | and rather crazy weapons |
| 19:48.57 | kingTD | another quite cool game http://www.sc2mapster.com/media/attachments/45/455/zolden2.jpg |
| 19:49.44 | Zolden | Tomura what's Xaragoth's role? |
| 19:49.52 | kingTD | surely no progress in researchs since didnt saw what to get but now thinking that would got some Angels fuckers |
| 19:49.54 | Tomura | gamedesign/art |
| 19:50.00 | kingTD | at least |
| 19:50.26 | Zolden | meiais will also be nerfed a bit |
| 19:51.05 | Tomura | we are stuggling a bit with the art style we want though |
| 19:51.10 | Tomura | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53255048/WIP.png |
| 19:51.42 | kingTD | plus had some great all game with reapers farming towers |
| 19:52.04 | Zolden | and reapers will be nerfed too |
| 19:52.13 | kingTD | nerf ranged fuckers |
| 19:52.17 | kingTD | and give proper income |
| 19:52.19 | Zolden | while meat sends will be buffed a bit with their damage |
| 19:52.34 | Zolden | waht to change in ranged? |
| 19:52.39 | kingTD | dmg |
| 19:52.42 | kingTD | and their hp |
| 19:52.53 | Zolden | less damage? to who? |
| 19:53.13 | kingTD | and u need script that would buff them with hp and dmg with the later stages of the game |
| 19:53.24 | kingTD | ranged units |
| 19:53.33 | JademusSreg | Zlop. |
| 19:53.40 | Zolden | Frolg |
| 19:53.48 | JademusSreg | Zlortz. |
| 19:53.59 | Zolden | kingTD just get mages adn mech to deal damage at later sstages |
| 19:54.09 | kingTD | most of the time ranged kills towers since they attack from behind and have quite a cover if sending in correct wave |
| 19:54.39 | kingTD | Zolden script for Senders to keep up with the waves |
| 19:54.44 | kingTD | dmg dealt and shit |
| 19:55.08 | Zolden | kingTD I'll add one more sender ful of stronger sends |
| 19:55.51 | kingTD | sending melee fuckers they get focused quite fast and almost do shit |
| 19:56.00 | kingTD | so Ranged sends are op in their nature |
| 19:56.34 | Zolden | it's because you're thinking about sends like it's a source of income, while they only supposed to make enemy leak |
| 19:57.09 | kingTD | no its u thinking about them as income |
| 19:57.14 | Zolden | now ranged dmg lowered and meat damage and hp raised, so maybe they will bring koills too |
| 19:57.18 | kingTD | adding features to make more money fro senders |
| 19:57.22 | kingTD | and not defenders |
| 19:57.46 | Zolden | i'll add income to main building upgrading |
| 19:57.48 | kingTD | so dont apply ur ideas on me |
| 19:58.15 | Zolden | i'd prefer to keep applying my ideas on you |
| 19:58.45 | ArcanePariah | JademusSreg, can I assume any frame that is extended from a archtype frame can be implemeted as a template of said frame type? |
| 19:58.53 | kingTD | i will apply debuff on u then |
| 19:59.38 | A1win | http://a1win.pp.fi/ss/sc2/ph/a107/SC2%202013-12-01%2021-22-53-19.jpg |
| 19:59.45 | A1win | can I customize the default menu stuff? |
| 19:59.46 | Zolden | Tomura i think any style that includes boobs can be considered as something good |
| 20:00.02 | Tomura | well that's just progress on a armor |
| 20:00.20 | Tomura | I find them too big, but this one won't make it into the final version anyways |
| 20:00.25 | A1win | Tomura, did it start off as full body armor? |
| 20:00.36 | Tomura | it did start off as a naked female |
| 20:00.40 | A1win | ;p |
| 20:00.55 | A1win | I thought that might be where it's getting at |
| 20:01.02 | Zolden | Tomura xaragoth made it? |
| 20:01.05 | Tomura | yes |
| 20:01.13 | Zolden | pretty decent model |
| 20:01.19 | ArcanePariah | A1win, are you referring to the stuff in the top right? |
| 20:01.21 | Tomura | we never found a character artist |
| 20:01.24 | A1win | ArcanePariah, yeah |
| 20:01.30 | Tomura | so he is teaching himself now |
| 20:01.35 | Zolden | sad i never was able to configure the correct shape of boobs |
| 20:01.41 | ArcanePariah | Yes you can, you can alter all of it except the b.net friends button |
| 20:02.02 | A1win | can't do anything to the friends button? |
| 20:02.27 | ArcanePariah | Correct, it is a reserved frame, can not be hidden at all |
| 20:02.36 | ArcanePariah | Only one that has that restriction |
| 20:02.43 | ArcanePariah | But you can hide everyything else |
| 20:02.44 | Zolden | hide all ui hides friends too |
| 20:02.47 | A1win | well not much point to edit the rest then either I guess |
| 20:02.58 | A1win | I don't want to hide them, just change the texture |
| 20:03.06 | ArcanePariah | Oh, that's easy then |
| 20:03.14 | A1win | I said customize, not hide :P |
| 20:03.18 | Zolden | can you cover it by something? |
| 20:03.24 | ArcanePariah | its the Menubar frame in the GameUI layout |
| 20:03.37 | ArcanePariah | look at the menubar layout file for how it is designed |
| 20:06.22 | A1win | err... it disappeared entirely :P |
| 20:07.12 | A1win | just added the menubar to my custom XML and altered border texture, and the whole bar along with its buttons is gone |
| 20:07.48 | ArcanePariah | Odd |
| 20:08.10 | A1win | if I remove the MenuBarBackgroundImage frame from my XML, it comes back |
| 20:08.19 | A1win | the menubar is created entirely from a template |
| 20:08.24 | A1win | so maybe I messed something up ;p |
| 20:09.08 | *** join/#sc2mapster Tolkfan (~Thunderbi@host-89-230-244-50.nowydwor.mm.pl) |
| 20:09.40 | A1win | err... if I don't set its texture, it works too |
| 20:10.08 | A1win | https://pastee.org/g4wzv <- this doesn't make it disappear |
| 20:10.35 | A1win | https://pastee.org/z2xdn and this does |
| 20:10.49 | A1win | (the texture itself works fine on other frames) |
| 20:11.11 | A1win | oh wait, the frame is still there |
| 20:11.15 | A1win | it's just fully black |
| 20:11.33 | A1win | and smaller than it should be |
| 20:12.05 | A1win | but where did the buttons go D: |
| 20:12.24 | ArcanePariah | For some reason I remember the menubar being a pita, let me look at my UI XML |
| 20:13.06 | Ahli | menubar uses the anchor frame for positioning itself |
| 20:13.09 | JademusSreg | Back. |
| 20:13.50 | *** join/#sc2mapster Ahli (~asdaaaaa@dslb-092-073-201-001.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 20:14.11 | *** join/#sc2mapster Ahli (~asdaaaaa@dslb-092-073-201-001.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 20:14.16 | A1win | hmmh all the stuff in the template is anchored to the background image |
| 20:14.40 | A1win | damn that thing is a huge template jungle |
| 20:14.48 | JademusSreg | Haha. |
| 20:14.54 | ArcanePariah | I don't think you can place the menubar up there, I think it is locked to to the bottom right area |
| 20:15.01 | ArcanePariah | (Stupid I know) |
| 20:15.10 | A1win | huh? |
| 20:15.14 | A1win | it's already positioned there |
| 20:15.20 | ArcanePariah | Yes, does it work up there? |
| 20:15.27 | A1win | yeah |
| 20:15.35 | A1win | it just disappears if I edit the background image frame |
| 20:15.43 | ArcanePariah | Interesting, guess the limitation is on the trigger only |
| 20:15.50 | JademusSreg | =D |
| 20:16.04 | ArcanePariah | Thanks JademusSreg, could have saved me some trouble :P |
| 20:16.07 | A1win | I've just moved the MenuBarConsoleAnchor frame up there |
| 20:18.11 | A1win | meh not important, I'll do it later if I feel like wasting a day |
| 20:18.22 | ArcanePariah | Anyhow, I'm guessing you need to use the correct kind of texture/image such that the buttons are visible, I'm guessing its a special image to make it so all the buttons fit correctly |
| 20:18.43 | ArcanePariah | You could just fire up the ingame UI editor and play around with it |
| 20:18.44 | A1win | hmm yeah |
| 20:18.57 | ArcanePariah | It's pretty useful for experimenting like this |
| 20:20.00 | *** join/#sc2mapster Fate_ (~IceChat77@e179070208.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 20:20.30 | Fate_ | so ist the 1 of dec, anything new about the ptr so far? |
| 20:21.07 | ArcanePariah | Nope.jpg |
| 20:21.23 | ArcanePariah | I'm guessing tomorrow maybe some news, now that thanksgiving weekend/break is over |
| 20:21.53 | Fate_ | ah right itsthanksgiving in us |
| 20:21.58 | A1win | just had a cool idea: a tooltip for the leaderboard that's otherwise exactly like the leaderboard but has more info on it |
| 20:22.01 | Fate_ | we dont have that on EU^^ |
| 20:22.08 | A1win | so if you move mouse over leaderboard, it expands |
| 20:22.24 | ArcanePariah | Also its that fucked time of year where morons zerg rush stores en masse |
| 20:22.27 | Fate_ | sounds usefull |
| 20:23.49 | ArcanePariah | JademusSreg, beyond the normal data abstraction reasons, is there any advantage to using extrernalized paths in the UI editor? |
| 20:23.56 | A1win | wonder what stats I should save for each player... games played and games won I guess |
| 20:24.04 | JademusSreg | Black Friday. Good idea for a melee map. |
| 20:24.14 | ArcanePariah | *Facepalm* |
| 20:24.26 | JademusSreg | Arc, maintanence. |
| 20:24.33 | JademusSreg | And localization. |
| 20:24.42 | ArcanePariah | I can see it now... Every player get 100 zerglings and a walmart sits in the middle... |
| 20:24.49 | A1win | except that games won is not very useful stat in FFA since with 2 players you'll have higher winrate than with 6 |
| 20:24.57 | JademusSreg | And brevity/readability. |
| 20:25.22 | ArcanePariah | Fair point, though it does become cumbersome to do a lookup every time you want to place a texture |
| 20:25.32 | ArcanePariah | And the editor doesn't exactly expose them |
| 20:25.46 | ArcanePariah | Can on construct their own? |
| 20:25.50 | ArcanePariah | And import it |
| 20:25.52 | JademusSreg | Yeah. |
| 20:26.01 | ArcanePariah | Ok, that at least makes things more sane |
| 20:26.26 | ArcanePariah | I'm assuming it is hardcoded that @@ appends _PlayerRace |
| 20:26.33 | ArcanePariah | Same with ## |
| 20:26.48 | kingTD | lol http://youtu.be/iIjsRaBAAfs?t=28m14s |
| 20:26.52 | JademusSreg | So far as I am aware. |
| 20:27.09 | JademusSreg | It may also be used to add a locale token. |
| 20:27.17 | JademusSreg | Not certain, merely suspect. |
| 20:28.00 | JademusSreg | I suspect because UI allows for conditional expressions that check for race and locale. |
| 20:28.43 | JademusSreg | The RequiredDefines element. |
| 20:28.46 | JademusSreg | <RequiredDefines val="Race|Locale|!Swarm"/> |
| 20:28.57 | JademusSreg | Pardon, race, locale and expansion tokens. |
| 20:29.00 | ArcanePariah | Sadly, the way things are setup, adding another race to the game would be a collosal endeavor, since one would have to add the appropriate entries to Assets.txt for each and every element |
| 20:29.20 | ArcanePariah | And such elements are used liberally throughout the UI |
| 20:29.38 | A1win | hmm a "player defeated" stat, which increases by 1 if you win a round for every enemy there was when the round started |
| 20:29.43 | A1win | *players defeated |
| 20:29.50 | JademusSreg | Oh no problem, unhandled race values default to a strange terran like UI. |
| 20:30.05 | ArcanePariah | Oh? Still would look like crap :P |
| 20:30.38 | JademusSreg | Set your player race to neutral sometime, or a custom race. Fun stuff. |
| 20:30.39 | JademusSreg | brb |
| 20:30.45 | ArcanePariah | Actually, you are right, unhandled probably default to the non race version |
| 20:30.52 | ArcanePariah | which for most values = terran variant |
| 20:31.12 | ArcanePariah | probably a holdover of WoL being terran and the first game |
| 20:44.01 | Stewox | hey turtles1 , I get that you take that as a joke, but that aise, here's a calm eyeopener of just the basic underlayer of your daily life, just to let you know those booby traps won't really work http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3uOyhFy4Lo |
| 20:46.14 | Stewox | ah he's not here anymore .... |
| 20:46.25 | Stewox | must have missed it in the disconnect ... |
| 20:49.56 | JademusSreg | Come 2.1, I'll be recompiling the element list. |
| 20:56.19 | ArcanePariah | Also, another question (which I'm about to test, but none thelesss), when ones sets a dialog item text, how does the game know to set the text vs a label frame text within, or does it do it to both? |
| 20:57.50 | JademusSreg | Clarify? Do you mean a label subframe within a frame? |
| 20:58.00 | ArcanePariah | Yes |
| 20:58.05 | ArcanePariah | For instance, button frames |
| 20:58.17 | ArcanePariah | have both a text element and a label element, which can be a label subframe |
| 20:58.22 | ArcanePariah | which also has a text element |
| 20:58.37 | JademusSreg | Ah, well, it should set the text of both. |
| 20:59.18 | ArcanePariah | Which is contradictory since the label frame may not match up to the text element position, thus looking terrible and rendering that command on button frames basically worthless? |
| 20:59.33 | A1win | http://a1win.pp.fi/phscore.txt any ideas what to display on score screen after each round? |
| 21:00.41 | ArcanePariah | Kind of constrains the use of templates if certain frames have certain elements that can not be effectively used with triggers to alter contents at run time |
| 21:01.02 | JademusSreg | Possibly, but since the button has a frame element, nested or not, one can define the specific features of the frame. |
| 21:06.03 | JademusSreg | *Text frame element |
| 21:10.49 | ArcanePariah | Welp it does appear, when altering the element values from text, the game engine somehow does know to do the correct thing |
| 21:11.24 | ArcanePariah | In my case, it is indeed altering the label text and not displaying the button text... which means I can only conclude that the button text is only displayed if a label element is not defined? |
| 21:43.07 | JademusSreg | Back. |
| 21:43.30 | JademusSreg | Sounds likely; that would explain why it has the element. |
| 21:45.36 | G0A | hey Zolden our neighbors going smart on the protest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq2ZtTNp0GQ |
| 21:45.41 | ArcanePariah | Makes sense, allows one to simply define a text, but also have the option to do a positioned text without using styles or to do text writeout, since writeout is a function of a label element, but not of a button element |
| 21:49.02 | JademusSreg | That also explains why various frame types have elements for textures, which when set are not inherited by Image subframes. |
| 21:49.59 | JademusSreg | Informative test, Arc, thanks. |
| 21:51.04 | A1win | interesting, my keyboard has a "None" key |
| 21:51.09 | A1win | that key next to shift |
| 21:51.20 | A1win | produces -1 as "Used key" in key pressed event |
| 21:51.29 | A1win | *next to left shift |
| 21:52.53 | JademusSreg | A1, that is hilarious. |
| 21:52.58 | Zolden | G0A yea, they found that buldoser ignited and ready to work, and used it |
| 21:53.05 | JademusSreg | A1, screenshot? |
| 21:53.21 | A1win | what do you need screenshot for? |
| 21:53.48 | A1win | I mean, how can I even take a screenshot of it :P |
| 21:54.04 | JademusSreg | Oh right. Take a realityshot, then. |
| 21:54.32 | Zolden | or go even deeper and take a surrealityshot |
| 21:54.52 | A1win | it's scandinavian keyboard layout |
| 21:55.35 | A1win | http://www.sweclockers.com/image/red/2011/11/23/Steelseries-6g-v2-red-nordic-version_angle-image-2.jpg?t=original&k=cb6abf13 |
| 21:55.38 | A1win | for example |
| 21:55.43 | A1win | that < > | key |
| 21:56.35 | A1win | https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/21801/Logitech_Wave.jpg |
| 21:56.38 | A1win | haha |
| 21:56.47 | A1win | someone's had problems with it in Guild Wars |
| 21:57.02 | A1win | though that's a different layout |
| 21:57.38 | G0A | you can always rebind it... |
| 21:57.38 | Zolden | that key suck |
| 21:58.01 | JademusSreg | Hm. I'm willing to bet that any key input which isn't defined within the enum will fire None. |
| 21:58.09 | A1win | G0A, I need it for those < > | characters :P |
| 21:58.17 | A1win | JademusSreg, most likely |
| 21:58.42 | A1win | I added a key pressed != none check for my key pressed events |
| 21:59.19 | kingTD | yeah i have that key never used it in my life |
| 21:59.20 | G0A | btw I have í there.D |
| 21:59.40 | A1win | kingTD, you've never written < or > ? |
| 21:59.53 | A1win | or is it some other key for you |
| 21:59.59 | kingTD | |||||\\\\\\ this button |
| 22:00.02 | A1win | ah |
| 22:00.22 | A1win | I use it all the time for these |
| 22:00.24 | Bommes | hmm |
| 22:00.41 | Bommes | scandinavian keyboard layout is really similar to the german layout but there are still some small differences, what the fuck |
| 22:00.58 | Bommes | how confusing can they manage to make keyboard layouts cross countries, why not just stick to something |
| 22:01.04 | Bommes | why does every region has to have their specialties |
| 22:01.28 | Bommes | *have |
| 22:01.52 | A1win | because we need stuff like ä and ö regularly |
| 22:02.01 | Bommes | no that's the same as the german version |
| 22:02.06 | Bommes | the differences is for *, ^ |
| 22:02.08 | Bommes | and stuff like that |
| 22:02.09 | Zolden | ¸ |
| 22:02.17 | A1win | ah |
| 22:02.37 | Bommes | german layout has as many special keys as scandinavian, we have ä ö ü |
| 22:02.44 | G0A | I have í?úóüöéá? do you have them too?.... |
| 22:03.09 | A1win | nope |
| 22:03.38 | A1win | just got a key for the accents that you press before a char and it adds to it |
| 22:03.46 | A1win | éè ü etc |
| 22:03.49 | G0A | btw http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard |
| 22:04.02 | G0A | thought there are even betters than Dvorak |
| 22:04.42 | A1win | some dvorak versions are good for programming since they have { and stuff behind just a single keypress |
| 22:05.26 | A1win | but I'm fine with this layout, nothing too annoying about it ;p |
| 22:05.50 | A1win | (plus I've been using it for like 15 years) |
| 22:06.00 | A1win | ...and even before that occasionally |
| 22:06.50 | Bommes | I'm actually thinking about switching to english layout and learning the ascii numpad codes for the special characters i need semi regularly |
| 22:07.53 | A1win | in Finnish, we use ä and ö about as often as a and o :P |
| 22:07.54 | G0A | hehe I once learned all that numpad codes and now I remember none of them |
| 22:08.06 | A1win | they are just the "front vowel" versions of a and o |
| 22:08.29 | Bommes | well finnish uses every letter multiple times in each word |
| 22:08.37 | A1win | haha |
| 22:08.37 | Bommes | so that's not much of a revelation |
| 22:09.32 | Bommes | english qwerty layout just seems much more convenient for coding in general |
| 22:11.21 | *** part/#sc2mapster G0A (~hookah604@91.83.10.97) |
| 22:11.55 | Bommes | even having to use "Alt Gr" to access specific keys is like the fuckest idea anyone could have come up with |
| 22:12.08 | A1win | hehe |
| 22:12.27 | A1win | yeah that's the worst thing about this |
| 22:12.49 | A1win | hmm I wonder... what if I bind capslock to alt gr |
| 22:14.02 | A1win | nope, razer synapse thinks I'm pressing alt when I press alt gr >_> |
| 22:14.40 | Bommes | I don't think programs coded by americans even know what Alt Gr is. |
| 22:14.48 | A1win | haha |
| 22:14.51 | Bommes | for them it's where it belongs, in the void where no one cares |
| 22:15.22 | A1win | still have no idea what the "gr" stands for |
| 22:15.35 | Bommes | gross |
| 22:15.45 | A1win | AltGr (also Alt Graph, Alt Graphic, Alt Graphics, Alt Grill, Alt Car, Alt Char, or Right Alt) |
| 22:16.13 | Bommes | I like gross better |
| 22:16.37 | A1win | maybe it's the sound that the user makes when he needs to use that key |
| 22:21.55 | *** join/#sc2mapster Lajjla (~nevzets@unaffiliated/nevzets) |
| 22:25.32 | JademusSreg | Alt Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr |
| 22:25.37 | JademusSreg | brb |
| 22:33.27 | *** join/#sc2mapster ScytheBlade1 (~Death@about/pxe/ScytheBlade1) |
| 22:35.00 | *** join/#sc2mapster Lajjla (~nevzets@unaffiliated/nevzets) |
| 22:37.12 | *** join/#sc2mapster Moorhsum^ (moorhsum@dsl-kpobrasgw1-54fac5-136.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 22:52.04 | A1win | are the art tools available for everyone yet or still some closed beta? |
| 22:53.33 | A1win | nvm, found the open beta page |
| 22:58.01 | *** join/#sc2mapster nooblark (nooblark@c-68-46-106-180.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 23:22.35 | Ownage | I have two units with the same command card, when I select both and hit the command card to cast the ability, only the first one does it. what do I need to change? |
| 23:22.53 | *** join/#sc2mapster Kueken (~Kueken@brsg-4dbbef1e.pool.mediaWays.net) |
| 23:23.27 | A1win | uncheck Best Unit in ability flags, I think |
| 23:24.18 | Ownage | yep it works thanks |
| 23:26.07 | *** join/#sc2mapster bobb (46bb4dab@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.187.77.171) |
| 23:26.23 | *** join/#sc2mapster paynis (b8a04703@gateway/web/freenode/ip.184.160.71.3) |
| 23:26.43 | bobb | if i have a dialog item i want to update to reflect a units mana cost.. how can i do that so it doesnt lag the game with 8+ players (is it possible?) |
| 23:27.15 | bobb | as in, wont running a trigger for "units energy amount changes" be pretty resource intensive to run? |
| 23:27.26 | Ownage | yep |
| 23:27.30 | Ownage | so you do it periodic |
| 23:27.48 | A1win | repeat forever { update dialog items; wait 0.0625 } |
| 23:27.58 | Ownage | you should almost never do triggers like what you're talking about, life change etc |
| 23:28.29 | bobb | hmm yea, just designing a custom ui.. and there is an element of course which requires that update.. not sure how else to do it other than periodic like you said |
| 23:28.30 | A1win | repeat forever loops allow you to do A LOT of stuff on every game frame without it lagging the game |
| 23:29.03 | A1win | for example, I'm calculating velocity/gravity/collisions for hundreds of circular objects entirely with triggers |
| 23:29.14 | Ownage | there's no reason to look for an alternative to periodic normally |
| 23:29.15 | bobb | and repeat forever works pretty well? |
| 23:29.56 | A1win | repeat forever with a wait 0.0625 in the end is as lightweight as it gets |
| 23:30.01 | A1win | it doesn't create new threads |
| 23:31.07 | A1win | however, you should only have one of those loops |
| 23:31.11 | A1win | and just put everything inside it |
| 23:31.18 | A1win | instead of have multiple loops running in separate threads |
| 23:31.28 | A1win | (in case you need to do more than just update the dialogs) |
| 23:31.48 | A1win | threads are rather expensive performance-wise |
| 23:32.05 | A1win | or rather, the creation of threads |
| 23:32.15 | bobb | damn, good info |
| 23:33.12 | Ownage | if you need that kind of refresh then definitely that's the way to go |
| 23:33.26 | bobb | yea that makes perfect sense |
| 23:33.28 | A1win | yeah, no better alternative |
| 23:33.37 | Ownage | I never need that kind of speed so I just do periodics of at least 1 second |
| 23:33.50 | Ownage | with stuff in it that is never going to take longer |
| 23:34.04 | A1win | it doesn't matter whether the wait is 0.0625 or 1 seconds |
| 23:34.24 | A1win | if it's going to freeze the game, it will do it with 1 sec delay just as badly as with 0.0625 sec delay (just not as often) |
| 23:34.26 | Ownage | sure it does, if you make a periodic event, it will run it twice |
| 23:34.35 | Ownage | with your method it will only ever run once |
| 23:34.49 | A1win | hmm? |
| 23:35.12 | A1win | I wasn't talking about periodic events, just comparing waits of 0.0625 and 1 |
| 23:35.22 | Ownage | periodic every 1 second do something that takes 1.1 second = :( |
| 23:35.39 | Ownage | but with that repeat forever it can't have that problem since it waits for the end to cycle again |
| 23:35.44 | A1win | repeat forever { do stuff; wait 0.0625 } |
| 23:35.47 | A1win | repeat forever { do stuff; wait 1.0 } |
| 23:36.04 | A1win | it makes no practical difference to performance which one you are using |
| 23:36.27 | bobb | yea, it queues it up rather than creating new instances |
| 23:36.39 | A1win | because if it's going to take too long to execute, you'll notice freeze frames no matter how long the delay is (unless it's longer than the game lasts ;p) |
| 23:37.25 | A1win | the delay is just a delay, it doesn't give the script engine any extra time to execute the script |
| 23:37.40 | A1win | it always executes scripts within the same game frame (which occur every 0.0625 seconds) |
| 23:38.20 | A1win | if you set the wait *less* than 0.0625, it will do stuff more than once each frame, which will have a negative impact on performance |
| 23:38.53 | bobb | yea |
| 23:39.03 | Ownage | does anyone remember hyper triggers? :D |
| 23:39.07 | A1win | 0.03125 is the shortest wait, even if you set it to wait 0.0 it'll wait 0.03125 (i.e. do the loop twice every frame) |
| 23:39.11 | bobb | wth are those |
| 23:39.35 | Ownage | it was a trick back in starcraft 1: http://www.staredit.net/starcraft/Hyper_Triggers |
| 23:39.53 | A1win | I wasn't very advanced in scripting with SC1 |
| 23:40.54 | Ownage | basically you could lag the game and send the game into a frenzy where everything ran in turbo fast mode (trigger side) |
| 23:41.41 | Ownage | 24x speed looks like |
| 23:41.59 | bobb | lol |
| 23:42.00 | Ownage | from once every 2 seconds to 12 times a second |
| 23:42.45 | A1win | sleep time |
| 23:42.50 | Ownage | ciao |
| 23:58.28 | JademusSreg | *tick, not frame |
