| 00:06.02 | A1win | this straight line laser beam ic much nicer |
| 00:16.58 | A1win | is even |
| 00:18.05 | A1win | also firefly missiles that actually look like fireflies ftw :> |
| 00:32.56 | *** part/#sc2mapster G0A (~hookah604@91.83.194.152.pool.invitel.hu) |
| 00:33.05 | A1win | http://a1win.pp.fi/ss/sc2/ph/a94/SC2%202013-11-24%2002-32-21-02.jpg pew |
| 00:33.39 | A1win | all 5 weapons are pretty nice now |
| 00:33.46 | A1win | just need some more abilities |
| 00:36.44 | *** join/#sc2mapster FireryRage (~FireryRag@192-0-203-176.cpe.teksavvy.com) |
| 00:42.36 | A1win | anyone know how to make a dialog item use another dialog item as its tooltip? |
| 00:43.03 | A1win | do I need to edit UI XML? |
| 00:43.10 | *** join/#sc2mapster hobbidude (60338f8c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.51.143.140) |
| 00:51.14 | hobbidude | anyone here? |
| 01:39.49 | *** join/#sc2mapster Dogmai (~Dogmai@106-68-157-242.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 01:44.02 | A1win | haha, didn't think I could be so happy about something so small as that triangle character as separator in death messages: http://a1win.pp.fi/ss/sc2/ph/a94/SC2%202013-11-24%2003-42-56-41.jpg |
| 01:44.36 | A1win | now I can set the cause of death always white, and instead just color the triangle closer to the player who "owns" the cause of death |
| 01:44.48 | A1win | like in that message, red player's laser killed purple player |
| 01:45.34 | A1win | if purple player was tagged by red player and killed himself with EMP, it'd say Red Player (white triangle) EMP (purple triangle) Purple Player |
| 01:46.04 | A1win | it's not an important mechanic, just gives more information about what happened ;p |
| 01:46.27 | A1win | the player who's at the left of the death message always gets the kill, and if there is no player there, the dead player loses a kill |
| 01:47.15 | A1win | http://a1win.pp.fi/ss/sc2/ph/a94/SC2%202013-11-24%2003-46-47-17.jpg |
| 02:08.32 | A1win | bah, this energy display feels weird, doesn't fit to the UI |
| 02:08.56 | A1win | probably because it's round |
| 02:11.31 | Stewox | can anyone help me make my UI buttons ? |
| 02:12.10 | Stewox | because it's hard for me when I never did it before |
| 02:14.59 | *** join/#sc2mapster JademusSreg (~jademus.s@c-76-123-235-103.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) |
| 02:15.21 | JademusSreg | Slorg. |
| 02:15.47 | A1win | JademusSreg, any ideas how to make that energy "bar" fit the UI better :E http://a1win.pp.fi/ss/sc2/ph/a94/SC2%202013-11-24%2003-42-56-41.jpg |
| 02:16.46 | A1win | it also only is relevant to those pink bordered buttons |
| 02:16.53 | JademusSreg | Tough call. Need to play it to see how it feels now. Care to test in about 20 minutes? |
| 02:17.00 | A1win | sure |
| 02:17.08 | JademusSreg | kk |
| 02:17.09 | JademusSreg | brb |
| 02:24.21 | Stewox | anyone help me make UI please |
| 02:24.27 | Stewox | a1win maybe you ? |
| 02:24.46 | Stewox | i have a few pre-game options |
| 02:25.04 | Stewox | but i just need to get started i can't find motivation for my self, looking at the tutorial it's just all weird to me |
| 02:25.32 | JademusSreg | How can I assist, Stew? |
| 02:25.50 | Stewox | well |
| 02:26.05 | Stewox | I just have to get through the wall of ice to even know how making UI buttons work |
| 02:26.14 | Stewox | i would probably took hours looking at tutorials |
| 02:26.20 | Stewox | i don't know which method is the best one |
| 02:26.28 | Stewox | http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/resources/tutorials/33449-dialog-custom-dialog-technique/ |
| 02:26.40 | Stewox | this is the one i found to be latest, but i don't know if it's for Buttons |
| 02:27.03 | Stewox | there is 4 players selecting side |
| 02:27.15 | *** join/#sc2mapster Doubleclick123 (3190051e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.49.144.5.30) |
| 02:27.21 | Stewox | when the game begins, 8 players will select Faction |
| 02:27.26 | Stewox | 4 on each side |
| 02:27.41 | Stewox | so the button must go grey when 4 is reached |
| 02:27.57 | Stewox | or let's say, it automatically selects the other side for the player |
| 02:29.58 | JademusSreg | Let's start over. Choose which best applies to your situation: Do you want to learn about UI layouts so you can do it yourself (by learning the fundamentals and how they work)? Or do you want instruction on how to solve a specific problem (that of making the UI layouts you need)? |
| 02:31.24 | Stewox | let's go for specific, if i know that one, i'll know the rest, since my map will not require any advanced stuff, If I want to i will already get a hang of it and evolve my skills later |
| 02:31.41 | Doubleclick123 | *cough* |
| 02:32.46 | JademusSreg | So lets unpack the specific goal into individual, smaller goals. Is this based on UI layouts or is it dialog controls? |
| 02:32.56 | *** join/#sc2mapster Bounty (45f8f26f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.248.242.111) |
| 02:33.38 | JademusSreg | Sheesh, Doub, cover your chat input when you cough. |
| 02:33.56 | Bounty | pew |
| 02:34.02 | Stewox | I have no idea jademussreg .... |
| 02:34.02 | JademusSreg | Hi thar Bounty. |
| 02:34.13 | Bounty | Hello JademusSreg |
| 02:34.14 | Stewox | I just need clickable buttons, i don't know any terms of any kind or any difference |
| 02:34.17 | Bounty | How bout dat image? |
| 02:34.18 | Bounty | :) |
| 02:34.33 | Stewox | the button also needs to have A text at the top, and a custom image inside |
| 02:34.47 | JademusSreg | Stew, it sounds like dialog controls. And that's pretty easy, once you get the hang of making custom actions/functions. |
| 02:35.07 | JademusSreg | Bounty, I'll work on it once I test A1's latest iteration. =D |
| 02:35.14 | Bounty | kk |
| 02:35.33 | Bounty | Do u think the color scheme I suggested would go well with the Galaxy image? |
| 02:36.00 | Bounty | I did not get approval from the boss to make it the main menu yet but just for future reference |
| 02:36.42 | JademusSreg | My favorite blue with the electrical shit? Yeah, though it needs a third color to offset the strong blue of the other two. |
| 02:37.12 | Bounty | would it blend with this though? https://www.dropbox.com/s/cem1jtllpqev783/Galaxy.jpg |
| 02:37.37 | Stewox | also jademussreg i need it across the screen, not on the control panel, and can I have a custom background image instead of the terrain ? |
| 02:37.38 | Bounty | I would plan on making all of the UI in those blue colors |
| 02:40.48 | JademusSreg | Stew, first thing one needs to know when working with dialogs is that dialog controls almost always need a supporting dialog (or panel, more on that in a bit) which, like a container, it holds all the other shit. What most people don't consider is that one rarely ever needs more than one dialog, and it provides far more control. Dialogs and dialog controls (remember, dialog controls are |
| 02:40.48 | JademusSreg | just the shit inside dialogs) have many properties, but they differ on how much control they offer. --- |
| 02:41.30 | A1win | I always say I should use panels and then I never do :| |
| 02:41.45 | JademusSreg | Bounty, it can work, but will need an orangish color somewhere in the composition to offset the total blue value from the electric stuff and purple. |
| 02:42.16 | Bounty | Don't think an entire UI of various blue tints would work with it? |
| 02:42.21 | Bounty | around the galaxy |
| 02:42.25 | Bounty | as to not blend in with it |
| 02:43.20 | JademusSreg | --- Now don't be alarmed that I'm pasting script; I use it for a quick reference and you can be certain all the functionality is available in GUI, usually with the same or quite similar name. https://pastee.org/sncc2 |
| 02:43.33 | Doubleclick123 | Is there a secret trend revolving around blue UI going on? |
| 02:44.36 | A1win | my UI is... white... and holy crap I've managed to mix a lot of colors into this |
| 02:45.34 | Doubleclick123 | lol |
| 02:46.55 | A1win | anyone else up for a test in a bit? |
| 02:47.46 | A1win | there will be lazors |
| 02:47.48 | JademusSreg | --- Find the DialogSetTitle function, and notice the functions in that block. Rather small selection, and not symmetrical, so some properties (such as Modal) can only be set from DialogCreate, and worse, very few have a playergroup/player argument for the property setter/getter functions. Now you're probably thinking, "what the fuck is the point of all this". Scroll down to DialogControlS |
| 02:47.48 | JademusSreg | etPropertyAsText function, and look those over. |
| 02:47.49 | A1win | and explosions |
| 02:48.30 | JademusSreg | launches the Battlesteam-err-.net client. |
| 02:49.17 | A1win | map is on EU |
| 02:49.43 | JademusSreg | Notice how the property getter/setter functions for dialog controls all have player/playergroup parameters? |
| 02:51.22 | JademusSreg | This shows the most important difference between dialogs and dialog controls; dialog properties are almost entirely shared, but dialog control properties are all player instanced. |
| 02:54.47 | Stewox | sry back now |
| 02:57.22 | Stewox | that's all for me since the pastee link jademussreg ? |
| 02:58.12 | Stewox | or you were talking to others |
| 02:59.50 | *** join/#sc2mapster ElectricPrism (~Loren@unaffiliated/electricprism) |
| 02:59.53 | Bounty | I think I'm just going to propose that they give me complete control for a week or two JademusSreg |
| 03:00.17 | Bounty | I think we can both agree that I would produce the best results if you just set me free like a wild animal lol |
| 03:01.00 | JademusSreg | On the telephonitron. afk for a bit |
| 03:01.10 | Bounty | np >.< |
| 03:02.04 | Doubleclick123 | Did someone mention lazorz and explosions? |
| 03:02.21 | *** join/#sc2mapster ArcanePariah (~ArcanePar@99-8-167-11.lightspeed.futnca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 03:02.39 | A1win | hmm for some reason the leaderboard is bugging with negative score if there are 2 players |
| 03:03.50 | A1win | works fine with 6 players x_x |
| 03:05.04 | A1win | also bugs with 3 |
| 03:07.05 | A1win | oh... it sorts even inactive players into the leaderboard |
| 03:07.49 | Doubleclick123 | lol |
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| 03:08.31 | *** join/#sc2mapster MoonEater917 (~Thunderbi@108-88-97-1.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 03:10.05 | A1win | fixed that :x |
| 03:10.20 | A1win | think I'll sleep now though and fix the loadout selection tomorrow ;p |
| 03:10.31 | Doubleclick123 | night |
| 03:10.37 | A1win | nn |
| 03:25.06 | JademusSreg | Back. |
| 03:25.58 | JademusSreg | Alright, so, energy bar. What is the lowest possible cost of an energy using power-magitechno-gizmo? |
| 03:26.30 | Bounty | JademusSreg |
| 03:26.36 | Bounty | I require your wisdom |
| 03:26.58 | JademusSreg | Gotta cover my feedback for A1 first, but feel free to spraken. |
| 03:27.05 | Bounty | I'll wait |
| 03:27.12 | Bounty | Let me know when I may speak :) |
| 03:30.37 | A1win | lowest will be 1, though not entirely sure if it needs 10 |
| 03:31.19 | A1win | will make some missiles and stuff that cost enrgy (as abilities) |
| 03:31.30 | A1win | mines too |
| 03:32.26 | A1win | 5 might be enough as max energy |
| 03:35.15 | JademusSreg | The energy bar should communicate several states to the player. It already communicates the most obvious: Available energy out of total possible energy. And it effectively communicate both regenerating and regenerated states, especially when it pops from desaturated to color. What it doesn't communicate concisely is ability uses; if the energy bar "steps" were relative to the least expensive |
| 03:35.15 | JademusSreg | power, segmented in some fashion according to the lowest energy cost of the current loadout, it would make assessment of power usage readily readable from the interface. Do I use 1-energy Blazblorp or the 3-energy Gigaflerp? Additional representations of option costs is desirable, but so long as the energy bar conveys the cost of choice, it helps. |
| 03:38.24 | A1win | just need to figure oiut how to make it look nice when it only has five steps |
| 03:38.35 | A1win | -i |
| 03:41.24 | JademusSreg | Or to approach it from the opposite position, if you have 1000 magespunk, and your only choice costs 1000 magespunk, the magespunk resource is superfluous and better represented by time-based usage. If you have 1000 magespunk, optionA costs 500 and optionB costs 100, the scale of the resource is needlessly inflated, which corresponds to the quantitative representation of options. And that's |
| 03:41.24 | JademusSreg | what you'd want to aim for, the meaningful representation of the cost of the extra power options. |
| 03:43.06 | A1win | yeah I'm aware of that, only increased the count from 5 to 10 when it looked weird with 5 :P |
| 03:43.48 | A1win | but it isn't good enough even so |
| 03:45.14 | JademusSreg | Ah, I'm thinking a similar color scheme and texture, only as a semi opaque bar with highlights and undershadow. The segmentation can be done easily by simply applying some crisp little texture over bar image, as needed. |
| 03:47.17 | ArcanePariah | Sorry to interject, are we attempting to customize the energy bar on units? |
| 03:47.37 | A1win | nah, on my ui |
| 03:47.44 | ArcanePariah | Ahh |
| 03:47.52 | JademusSreg | And the segment can render with Multiply, perhaps, so that it doesn't seem out of place when the bar is depleted. |
| 03:48.12 | ArcanePariah | Hmm... can you not simply use a seperate instance of the existing unit energy bar? |
| 03:48.53 | JademusSreg | Arc, A1 certainly could, but I'd not push him down that dark alley when he's so close to complete (maybe)., |
| 03:49.03 | JademusSreg | *completion |
| 03:49.04 | JademusSreg | Haha |
| 03:49.09 | ArcanePariah | Ahh I see, he is near completion already |
| 03:49.21 | JademusSreg | Alright. brb in n minutes |
| 03:49.33 | ArcanePariah | And let n = 1.... |
| 03:49.37 | ArcanePariah | :P |
| 03:50.02 | A1win | http://a1win.pp.fi/ss/sc2/ph/a94/SC2%202013-11-24%2003-42-56-41.jpg |
| 03:50.27 | A1win | those orbs are the current bar |
| 03:51.46 | A1win | don't want it too different from the rest of the ui either |
| 03:52.13 | A1win | (which it currently is) |
| 03:53.17 | ArcanePariah | Well.... and I may be revisiting the same thing JademusSreg was with his wall of texts, but do you need the energy to be represented as a discrete value or as a smooth continuum? |
| 03:54.45 | A1win | as discrete as possible, but regen is smooth (which is where the segmented bar comes in) |
| 03:54.54 | ArcanePariah | That would affect how I would present the dialog, but in either case, if you are using dialogs/triggers to display it, I would highly sugguest you look at what Blizzard did to display the Hero vitality bars in the Heart of the Swarm campaign |
| 03:55.06 | ArcanePariah | Because it seems that is what you are aiming for |
| 03:56.01 | A1win | I'm not too worried about implementation, more about how it should look like |
| 03:58.12 | ArcanePariah | Well... since regen is smooth, but the energy works in discrete quantites, I would have each segment that is full be displayed at full opacity, but unfilled segments be dimmed to like 50% opacity |
| 03:58.37 | ArcanePariah | So you can tell quickly how much energy you have, and time exactly when you have the energy you need |
| 03:59.27 | A1win | currently unfilled orbs fade to full opacity but are greyscale until full |
| 04:00.09 | ArcanePariah | Ok, well, keep that concept, but turn it into a bar. If needed, each segment is a part of an array and thus you can quickly calculate which segment needs to be colored |
| 04:00.34 | A1win | just not sure how a bar would look like on top of that ui |
| 04:01.39 | ArcanePariah | Hmm.... good point. Perhaps place the energy bar on the bottom along with shields and life, and place ability bar above? Would make it more consistent (IMO) |
| 04:02.25 | A1win | that would look silly |
| 04:02.41 | JademusSreg | Back. |
| 04:02.59 | A1win | for one, rhe two bars atm are mirrored |
| 04:03.09 | A1win | *the |
| 04:03.25 | ArcanePariah | *Shrug* I'm not a UI/UX person, so just saying what I think. |
| 04:03.36 | ArcanePariah | Yeah, you would have to make them all left to right |
| 04:03.41 | ArcanePariah | which you probably don't want to do |
| 04:04.07 | A1win | mm |
| 04:04.14 | ArcanePariah | I'm assuming the ability buttons are simply highly customized commmand card? |
| 04:04.19 | ArcanePariah | Or are those dialogs? |
| 04:04.30 | JademusSreg | Oh snap, Browder jumped on RPS's grenade. |
| 04:04.39 | ArcanePariah | ??? |
| 04:05.59 | JademusSreg | An article appeared in the Battle.net client, Browder's response to the RPS feature. Two-part article, a twoparticle. http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/11/22/blizzard-on-heroes-of-the-storm-female-designs-in-mobas/ |
| 04:06.11 | A1win | another thing about the ui is that the 3 leftmost buttons are weapons of which 1 is selected at a time, while the other 3 are abilities that are simply used by pressing a hotkey |
| 04:06.22 | JademusSreg | The third part would be on battle.net site/client. |
| 04:06.38 | A1win | and the energy is only used by the abilities |
| 04:07.25 | A1win | and yeah they are dialogs, editing xml is horrible on in comparison :P |
| 04:07.34 | ArcanePariah | lol |
| 04:08.19 | A1win | but if needed, I could use it too |
| 04:08.58 | JademusSreg | Templating and hookups are preferable from a design/development/maintenance perspective, as it helps separate content data from the program logic. |
| 04:10.19 | JademusSreg | And its great for initializing properties; forget about forgetting to enable or set the image or whatever. =D |
| 04:10.23 | JademusSreg | *it's |
| 04:11.00 | ArcanePariah | Hmm.... since we are on the topic, can you better explain how that works? |
| 04:11.41 | JademusSreg | Which what? |
| 04:11.44 | ArcanePariah | Does using hookups to defined UI elements in the UI editor force you to pass stuff such that it has an image, label, etc.? |
| 04:11.59 | JademusSreg | Er, clarify? |
| 04:12.32 | A1win | sleep now, night |
| 04:12.46 | ArcanePariah | What advantage does creating a UI element in XML, then hooking it up, and assigning it a label, image, etc. have over doing it entirely in triggers with dialogs? |
| 04:14.51 | ArcanePariah | Is it similar in nature to defining objects in User Types and then using/referencing it in triggers (separating data from logic)? |
| 04:15.38 | JademusSreg | Well, I mean to say that one should define all default|non-variable properties and subframes of a dialog control with custom frames for templates/hookups where supported by the elements. |
| 04:15.38 | ArcanePariah | So that I can skip making a variable for each dialog item contained within a dialog and change it manually, I can instead just do a set label for a dialog? |
| 04:17.30 | ArcanePariah | Ok, to use an example from my map, I create a dialog that has a close button, and I have to create that part in triggers, then assign a variable for a trigger to check if that button is clicked. I could in theory, create my own template in XML, thereby skipping a fair amount of trigger code (Just create a dialog from template, assing it and be done) |
| 04:17.42 | ArcanePariah | assign* |
| 04:17.59 | JademusSreg | (Personally, I feel the approach used for HotS campaign hero panels was just dreadful. It works, but could have been implemented more elegantly, less reliance on code.) |
| 04:18.19 | ArcanePariah | Same, I found it weird how much trigger code was used for it |
| 04:19.29 | JademusSreg | And yeah, in that example, I'd say use templates if it's not logically limited to a single instance, otherwise use a hookup. |
| 04:20.13 | JademusSreg | *single/arbitrary-number of instances |
| 04:20.49 | ArcanePariah | What is the difference between templates and hook ups? Is templates just used as reference to create a dialog and the engine handles it and hook ups are for actually defined objects in the UI and linking them to trigger code? |
| 04:21.22 | ArcanePariah | Since you can create UI XML, but if it is not placed/instances under the GameUI file, it won't actually appear/be created |
| 04:21.28 | ArcanePariah | Afaik |
| 04:21.42 | JademusSreg | A template is, well, a template; its data is used to initialize a new instance of a dialog control. |
| 04:21.55 | ArcanePariah | At least that is the impression I got from examing the UI tree using the ingame UI editor |
| 04:22.13 | ArcanePariah | It has a root element, and all other elements are contained within |
| 04:22.31 | JademusSreg | A hookup sort of the reverse, in that it literally becomes the frame into which it hooks, thereby exposing it to the dialog control aPI. |
| 04:22.36 | JademusSreg | *API |
| 04:23.26 | ArcanePariah | So... I could hookup, say, the UI element that contains the Unit Wireframe image, and swap it out to use a different image/model? |
| 04:23.33 | ArcanePariah | With Dialog Set Model, etc. |
| 04:24.03 | ArcanePariah | So hook ups are to exposed the existing UI elements to trigger code for run time modification |
| 04:24.17 | JademusSreg | Probably, yeah. |
| 04:24.25 | JademusSreg | And yes. |
| 04:24.31 | JademusSreg | There is a catcfh. |
| 04:24.36 | JademusSreg | *catch haha |
| 04:24.41 | ArcanePariah | Which has caveats, many dialogs are unalterable/can not be hooked up |
| 04:24.48 | JademusSreg | Frame types. |
| 04:24.58 | ArcanePariah | Yeah |
| 04:25.05 | ArcanePariah | Certain frames are locked |
| 04:25.14 | ArcanePariah | I'm assuming they use hardcoded references in the game engine |
| 04:25.24 | ArcanePariah | to certain numbers/values/variables |
| 04:25.51 | ArcanePariah | All the UI fields with value = internal |
| 04:25.57 | JademusSreg | If the frame types are not compatible*, it throws an error. |
| 04:27.35 | JademusSreg | However, Ahli found that, by using the root Frame frame type as the frame type for a template of an inaccessible frame type, it can be made accessible. So there are workarounds. |
| 04:28.12 | JademusSreg | And also this relates to the frame element support list I compiled a while back. |
| 04:29.01 | ArcanePariah | Hmm... I wonder if the frame type is used as the reference point for the engine code and by using the generic Frame type, it no longer interferes and thus the "locked" frames are no longer locked |
| 04:29.17 | ArcanePariah | Just my random theory on why that workaround works |
| 04:29.22 | JademusSreg | When I started researching how dialog controls and layouts interact, the first question was "how much control does the dialog control API provide for frames?" |
| 04:30.54 | JademusSreg | Frame type are often updated from the engine, typically via their frame paths, in way that has the names of many, many standard frames hardcoded into the client. |
| 04:31.54 | JademusSreg | CFrame is the root class for all frames, they all inherit from it and all its elements are valid for the child classes. |
| 04:31.54 | JademusSreg | http://www.sc2mapster.com/paste/7445/ |
| 04:32.52 | JademusSreg | My loosely organized frame element support list detailing, of particular import in our discussion, the inheritence tree. |
| 04:33.54 | ArcanePariah | Ultimately, if you create new UI frames of your own design, and instantiate them, you still need to hook them up and use the existing Dialog API/events to interact with them? |
| 04:33.55 | ArcanePariah | I |
| 04:34.00 | ArcanePariah | IE, like the command card buttons, |
| 04:34.11 | JademusSreg | Though I did condense it significantly, it doesn't suffer any loss. Just figured it would be more readable to group all the children and minor extensions with their significant parents. |
| 04:35.05 | JademusSreg | Not always, and it's not always easy to tell which require engine updates and which update automatically from the game state. |
| 04:36.27 | ArcanePariah | That leads me to another question, all the various dialog actions, like Set Dialog Item Alpha, Set Dialog Item Model... etc. are basically just writing to the frame XML. So if the frame doesn't have a model element defined, the set Model action will do nothing, correct? |
| 04:37.36 | JademusSreg | I was amused/satisfied to discover there is, in fact, a Control frame type (CControl) from which all the interactive frame types inherit. |
| 04:37.37 | JademusSreg | Naw, like catalog and user data and such, it makes no changes to the XML. |
| 04:39.07 | ArcanePariah | Well... I worded that badly, it doesn't write to the XML, but if the element in question is not defined for that UI element, setting it will do nothing. So if I create a UI element in XML with no label element, hooking it up later and doing Set Dialog Lable will do nothing, since no label has been defined |
| 04:40.17 | ArcanePariah | Also, I find it curious that there is an option to have UI elements appear to allies/enemies/owner.... but many of these XML settings can also be controlled by Actors in data as well.... |
| 04:40.27 | ArcanePariah | Which makes me wonder... where do actors end and UI elements begin.... |
| 04:40.31 | ArcanePariah | Seems the 2 systems are somewhat intermixed/linked |
| 04:40.35 | JademusSreg | It's a lot more like patching, in that they all work by retaining the original data state loaded to memory, with the changes applied like patches of a quilt, basically they always use non-destructive methods of data management. |
| 04:40.36 | JademusSreg | Er, Dialog Set Label wouldn't be valid, since Dialogs don't benefit from templates or hookups in the least. =D |
| 04:41.35 | ArcanePariah | Ahh, like the rest of the data editor, it applies the base values and simply works its way down the inheritence change to arrive at a final value (with none of the intermediary values being altered) |
| 04:42.20 | JademusSreg | I did look into that a while back, and while they can both respond asynchronously, they are separate. Frame instances/dialog controls can refer to actors, and not the other way around. |
| 04:42.26 | ArcanePariah | chain* |
| 04:42.34 | ArcanePariah | Dialog Item* :P |
| 04:42.45 | *** join/#sc2mapster Lepton (~Lepton@unaffiliated/lepton) |
| 04:43.28 | JademusSreg | Actor data can in a crude way. |
| 04:43.57 | ArcanePariah | I inquire in all of this since it does seem it would spare me a fair bit of trigger code to simply template the custom UI elements I have in my game and thus make the creation of them much much easier |
| 04:44.09 | ArcanePariah | Since right now I have fairly complicated custom diallogs, and I stored much of the reference data (offsets, etc) in User Types |
| 04:44.18 | ArcanePariah | And many of these dialogs are fairly static |
| 04:44.56 | ArcanePariah | IE, their appearance/creation is not determined at runtime |
| 04:44.57 | JademusSreg | (Though it's limited to a few kinds of state data it can push to custom frames they declare.) |
| 04:44.58 | JademusSreg | Yeah, definitely wanna use custom frames and/or hookups and/or templates. |
| 04:45.51 | JademusSreg | For those, definitely custom frames. |
| 04:46.18 | ArcanePariah | And even those that are somewhat dynamic, hookups means I can include custom frames into the base UI, and alter the few parts necessary at runtime |
| 04:46.24 | ArcanePariah | Ok |
| 04:46.26 | ArcanePariah | That's what I gathered |
| 04:46.33 | ArcanePariah | Custom Frames, added to the base UI, and use hookups where needed for dyanmic elements |
| 04:47.14 | JademusSreg | If they are complete static, custom frame with its own instance defined in the GameUI structure (since that is the desc file responsible for instancing frame definitions). |
| 04:47.15 | JademusSreg | *sole desc file =D |
| 04:47.17 | JademusSreg | Hookups for dynamic-state, templates for dynamic-instance. |
| 04:47.51 | ArcanePariah | Ultimately, that is/has been my primary task with NotD, abstracting the data from the code, and reducing the code to simple logic |
| 04:48.38 | JademusSreg | Feel like I've missed a ton of questions in the fevered race we seem to be entertaining, haha. |
| 04:48.38 | JademusSreg | Are there any I missed? |
| 04:48.45 | ArcanePariah | Yes, some I will include in the GameUI, since all of these are on a per player basis |
| 04:49.01 | ArcanePariah | No, the answers have been helpful. |
| 04:49.31 | JademusSreg | Er. |
| 04:49.31 | JademusSreg | You forget that all dialog control properties are player-instanced. |
| 04:49.35 | ArcanePariah | And yes, it does seem like we were both racing at warp speed and stumbling over each other :P |
| 04:50.05 | ArcanePariah | Explain? |
| 04:50.25 | JademusSreg | There's no reason to instance a dialog control per player, since all of their properties can be set per player. |
| 04:50.26 | JademusSreg | https://pastee.org/sncc2 |
| 04:51.00 | *** join/#sc2mapster Delphinium (~Delphiniu@60.166.99.172) |
| 04:51.02 | JademusSreg | Scroll down to DialogControlCreate. |
| 04:51.02 | JademusSreg | And just browse the property getters/setters, |
| 04:51.14 | JademusSreg | Then you'll likely wanna scroll up to skim the property types, haha. |
| 04:52.21 | ArcanePariah | Now, for my edification, Dialog Controls = Dialog Items in the GUI, correct? |
| 04:52.36 | JademusSreg | Yep. |
| 04:53.42 | JademusSreg | Neither term is especially apt, since dialog controls can be types whose frames are not child-types of Control, but whatever. |
| 04:53.50 | *** join/#sc2mapster miushock (3288f43c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.136.244.60) |
| 04:53.51 | ArcanePariah | In which case, that is a fairly nice upside to using custom frames, since right now, I create an array of Dialogs (1 per player) and for each element within, I have an array, in order to determine which element is used and which player it is for |
| 04:54.18 | JademusSreg | Yeah, never do that again. ♥ |
| 04:54.19 | ArcanePariah | Well, maybe not, I probably will still have to use said arrays, is there an alternative? |
| 04:54.23 | miushock | hi guys |
| 04:54.34 | JademusSreg | Make 1 global dialog. |
| 04:54.41 | JademusSreg | Treat it as a constant. |
| 04:55.07 | miushock | does anyone know what's exactly controlling the orientation of a missile? |
| 04:55.39 | ArcanePariah | miushock, in the mover, you can control the orientation of the missle at launch and also how fast its orientation can change |
| 04:55.44 | JademusSreg | Dialog Set Fullscreen = ofcourse; Dialog Set Image Visible = hellfuckingno |
| 04:56.10 | miushock | i've tried each of those field :/ |
| 04:56.27 | JademusSreg | And optinally, for good measure, Dialog Set Image = somecompletelyalphadouttexture.dds |
| 04:56.35 | JademusSreg | *optionally |
| 04:56.44 | ArcanePariah | Did you look at Blizzard's Mover ytutorial miushock ? |
| 04:56.46 | JademusSreg | Damn, I need a snack, haha. |
| 04:56.56 | ArcanePariah | It is very very informative and descriptive |
| 04:57.04 | JademusSreg | For beginners: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/maps-and-mods/tutorials/missile-movers/ |
| 04:57.31 | JademusSreg | Once that's understood: http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/resources/tutorials/4855-data-customized-movers-advanced-difficulty/ |
| 04:57.58 | miushock | yeah |
| 04:58.37 | miushock | well blizzard tutorial is really description of each field |
| 04:59.04 | miushock | and Muze tutorial is plain useless to me |
| 04:59.20 | miushock | that tutorial didn't even touch any field that interest me |
| 04:59.39 | miushock | mostly examples of making unusual path |
| 05:00.54 | JademusSreg | Anyway, back to dialogs, they are just dreadful, the worst, the smell of garbage in the summer, they're an inadvertedly imbibed mouthful of month old urine from a year old bottle of juice. |
| 05:00.56 | miushock | the dekata xml from jade last time helped me alot |
| 05:01.09 | miushock | but i'm yet to find any examples can help me on this matter |
| 05:01.18 | JademusSreg | But they are often necessary, so make one, and use panels from then on. |
| 05:01.24 | JademusSreg | miu, hi thar. |
| 05:01.48 | ArcanePariah | Jade, help miu for now, I need to address something with my animals |
| 05:01.50 | JademusSreg | The orientation relative to -what-? |
| 05:01.52 | ArcanePariah | ill brb |
| 05:02.05 | miushock | the caster |
| 05:02.15 | miushock | i'd like the caster move 'backwards' |
| 05:02.21 | JademusSreg | Ah, yes. |
| 05:02.29 | JademusSreg | I'll actually just straight up make this. |
| 05:02.35 | JademusSreg | launches the editor. |
| 05:03.46 | JademusSreg | I'll make the example, then paste the XML and provide a link to the map. |
| 05:04.29 | JademusSreg | To reiterate, I think I remember the design but wanna be certain, it's an instant cast, untargeted ability that moves the caster backward. All that correct? |
| 05:05.19 | miushock | yes |
| 05:05.26 | miushock | i've got that part working right now |
| 05:05.35 | miushock | missile orietation during flight is the only problme |
| 05:05.42 | JademusSreg | Ah. |
| 05:05.49 | JademusSreg | Well, that's easy. =D |
| 05:05.54 | JademusSreg | Look at the YoinkMover. |
| 05:06.48 | JademusSreg | I assume it is still called that. It's the mover for the Zerg dragonflysnake's unit-pull ability. |
| 05:06.58 | miushock | oh |
| 05:07.12 | miushock | god i think i really need to play through the heart of swarm |
| 05:07.13 | JademusSreg | And coincidentally, Dehaka's spawn have an similar ability. |
| 05:07.20 | JademusSreg | *a |
| 05:07.26 | JademusSreg | Anyway, it' |
| 05:07.36 | JademusSreg | it's a single flag on the mover. |
| 05:08.29 | miushock | sec plz, the viper pull in wont change unit orientation right? |
| 05:09.04 | JademusSreg | Right. You may remember that a viper pulling a colossus maintains the upright position. =D |
| 05:09.54 | ArcanePariah | JademusSreg back |
| 05:10.11 | JademusSreg | Hallo Arc. |
| 05:10.36 | ArcanePariah | My question is, why not use arrays of dialogs, 1 per player? It makes it relatively easy to hide/show data on a per player basis, especially if multiple Dialog Items/Controls are player specific? |
| 05:10.50 | miushock | k i think i'll download heart of the swarm now and take a look at it |
| 05:10.51 | miushock | thx :) |
| 05:11.19 | JademusSreg | Arc, the most obvious reasons are two-fold. |
| 05:11.23 | JademusSreg | No problem miu |
| 05:11.28 | ArcanePariah | I see Dialogs as container objects, and they do seem to serve the purpose well |
| 05:11.38 | JademusSreg | Yes, but so are Panels. |
| 05:11.58 | ArcanePariah | And what exactly are panels /me glimpses at editor |
| 05:12.06 | ArcanePariah | glimpses at editor |
| 05:12.17 | JademusSreg | And panels, being dialog controls themselves, also have player-instanced properties. |
| 05:12.29 | JademusSreg | Look back at the paste. |
| 05:12.35 | JademusSreg | Find DialogControlCreate. |
| 05:12.40 | JademusSreg | Now look below it. |
| 05:13.43 | ArcanePariah | I see it, the question being, what panel? You have to pass which panel the dialog item will be created in |
| 05:13.44 | JademusSreg | DialogContorlCreateInPanel DialogControlCreateFromTemplate DialogControlCreateInPanelFromTemplate DialogControlHookup DialogControlHookupStandard DialogControlHookupUnitStatus |
| 05:13.50 | JademusSreg | Yep. |
| 05:14.19 | JademusSreg | A dialog control inside a dialog control, and all their properties are player-instanced and inheritable. |
| 05:14.34 | ArcanePariah | Ok.... So we have existing UI elements that can be hooked up as Dialogs. We have dialog items which can be created in dialogs. We have Dialog items that can be created in panels.... so what are panels? |
| 05:14.52 | ArcanePariah | So.... Panels are player specific dialogs? |
| 05:15.03 | JademusSreg | Scroll up to const int c_triggerControlTypeInvalid |
| 05:15.26 | JademusSreg | And scroll down until you notice a certain type. =D |
| 05:16.25 | ArcanePariah | Ok, I see panel.... So a panel is a dialog item that is a container, so you can create sub containers within a Dialog. Ultimately a Panel is a just a container object, and by creating other controls within it, you can control their visability by hiding the Panel? |
| 05:16.47 | ArcanePariah | (Among other properties) |
| 05:17.11 | JademusSreg | They are a dialog control, which can contain other dialog controls. In effect they are entirely visually and mechanically featureless, support nesting (panels in panels, panels in panels in panels in panels...), and again have player-instanced properties. |
| 05:17.31 | ArcanePariah | Yes, but how does player instance properties help me? |
| 05:17.32 | JademusSreg | In UI terms, the Panel dialog control type more or less instances a Frame. |
| 05:18.23 | ArcanePariah | All I can see is that certain dialog items I can hide in bulk, but I was already doing that by hiding entire dialogs... |
| 05:18.45 | JademusSreg | If all the properties (not the dialog controls themselves, their properties) are instanced per player, any value set is only for the players in the parameter's playergroup, and any value one gets is for the parameter's player. |
| 05:19.22 | JademusSreg | There's no reason to have separate dialog controls per player because every dialog control can display (and retains its values) separately for each player. |
| 05:20.09 | JademusSreg | I can use 1 dialog control image to display 15 different things, to 15 different players. |
| 05:20.22 | miushock | jade, one more question about the movers |
| 05:20.35 | JademusSreg | 1 thing per player, for only a single single control. |
| 05:21.02 | JademusSreg | =D |
| 05:21.12 | miushock | under the orientation section, what's the unit of yaw/pitch/roll? (i thought it was in degrees with max of 360) |
| 05:21.37 | JademusSreg | Usually, that only applies to Throw movers, so delete it or ignore it, makes no difference. |
| 05:22.22 | ArcanePariah | And by single control, you mean...??? |
| 05:23.16 | ArcanePariah | Oh... I think I get what you are saying now |
| 05:23.27 | JademusSreg | I very much hope so, hahaha. |
| 05:23.40 | JademusSreg | I figured you more than anyone here would understand it. |
| 05:24.38 | ArcanePariah | I'm looking at my Ammo Counter dialog, and it is the Set Dialog Item Text, and it has the last parameter being a player group, so I can set the same dialog item to have different values display for diffeernt people |
| 05:25.16 | ArcanePariah | However, I still up needing arrays of dialog items, because the value is per player, but can be viewed by anyone |
| 05:25.44 | ArcanePariah | So I need player 1 ammo, and player 2 ammo... to be displayed to any player |
| 05:25.54 | *** join/#sc2mapster Delphinium (~Delphiniu@60.166.99.172) |
| 05:26.46 | JademusSreg | Yessssssssssss. Anyway, huge net benefits to performance, less complex code and less repreated code patterns, simpler abstraction, better organization with nested compositions, more control, more freedom. Better in every possible way. |
| 05:27.11 | ArcanePariah | So I don't need a given piece of info to be displayed differently to multiple players, I need a single piece of info (per player info) displayed the same to all other players |
| 05:27.25 | ArcanePariah | Hence 8 dialog items |
| 05:27.26 | JademusSreg | Yeah, in that case, sure you'd have some labels, or a list box, or some such. |
| 05:28.16 | ArcanePariah | For any dialog item that is not dynamic (appears the same to all players) we do create multiples by being in multiple dialogs, I assume your approach is meant to avoid this? |
| 05:28.34 | ArcanePariah | So I would create a single image and display it to all |
| 05:28.36 | JademusSreg | I recall you said there were multiple dialogs too, but no matter. But yeah, of course you'd have n labels, or 1 label with n lines via linebreaks, or listbox with n items, et cetera. |
| 05:29.12 | JademusSreg | I'm not certain how to parse that question, haha. |
| 05:29.22 | *** part/#sc2mapster Kueken (~Kueken@brsg-d9bee5e6.pool.mediaWays.net) |
| 05:31.00 | JademusSreg | But that last part is certainly true. There's no good reason to have multiple dialogs when panels perform the same duties, can be nested arbitrarily, and (among other properties) can be -moved- per player (dialogs absolutely cannot, haha). |
| 05:31.03 | ArcanePariah | Let me rephrase, your approach elimnates the creation of redundant controls/dialog items (be it images, frames, w/e) by making a single dialog, and making 8 Panels, placing anything that needs to be changes as the game goes on in those, and altering them as needed on a per player basis, and all other elements simply place in the main dialog, since they will appear the same to everyone anyhow? |
| 05:31.43 | ArcanePariah | Well, none of my dialogs "move" perse, we just hide/show |
| 05:33.03 | ArcanePariah | The only real advantage i see for me is the reduction to conditions for my dialog triggers, making them check for less dialogs that have been clicked (instead of Dialog[1] through [8], just Dialog, and sort out which frame was interacted with in the actions) |
| 05:33.47 | ArcanePariah | However, even then, it does not reduce the number of trigger instances, since the current setup only permits 1 of a set of 4 dialogs to even be viewed at once, I hide all others |
| 05:33.58 | ArcanePariah | And when hidden, dialogs will not trigger |
| 05:34.13 | ArcanePariah | Well... they still will |
| 05:34.26 | ArcanePariah | Mostly because of the GUI in the editor forcing me to use Any Dialog |
| 05:35.57 | JademusSreg | Any number of panels, depends entirely on the design of the interface in question. I personally use them as liberally as the UI layouts use Frames, haha. If one uses the dialog API for anything other than a hookup, one should make one global fuillscreen no-image dialog and use dialog controls for everything therein. There is no conceivable exception. Custom frames for static interface, |
| 05:35.57 | JademusSreg | hookups for dynamic-state, templates for (patterned) dynamic-instances, dialog controls all the way down. =D |
| 05:36.25 | ArcanePariah | Let me reiterate, I see the value of your approach and it certainly can be applied I believe, however, too many things in my map are player specific info that is vewed the same by all players, so I often need arrays |
| 05:36.40 | ArcanePariah | As to show player 2 data to player 4 |
| 05:36.45 | ArcanePariah | and hide other player data |
| 05:37.06 | ArcanePariah | But yes, I see that I probably can avoid arrays of dialogs (not dialog items) by using custom frames |
| 05:37.12 | *** join/#sc2mapster DeadZergling (322e8dd1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.46.141.209) |
| 05:38.24 | JademusSreg | Come on, that's obviously an overly narrow interpretation. I certainly couldn't argue against using multiple items for displaying separate values to the same player, hahaha. |
| 05:38.54 | ArcanePariah | Yes, but that is the reason my code has massive number of arrays and my triggers have to search through them often |
| 05:39.24 | ArcanePariah | Though I almost certainly should redo many of those arrrays into arrays of records |
| 05:39.34 | ArcanePariah | Since many of them are for similar purposes |
| 05:39.55 | ArcanePariah | I have already elimianted many redundant controls |
| 05:40.21 | ArcanePariah | By creating a 4th dialog (soon to be a custom frame) that had common elements in 3 other dialogs |
| 05:40.38 | JademusSreg | Most people don't even know panels exist, yet I can't imagine structuring a webpage without nested containers. |
| 05:40.54 | ArcanePariah | Well yeah, panels = html divs basically? |
| 05:41.12 | JademusSreg | Fair analogue, yeah. |
| 05:41.20 | ArcanePariah | A conveneint container abstraction in both cases, used for reference only? |
| 05:42.03 | ArcanePariah | Welp... to the UI editor I go.... *groan* Unless stuff has massively changed, I do remember that thing crashing on me quite often... |
| 05:42.18 | ArcanePariah | Always felt the UI editor was the most unstable module in the editor overall |
| 05:42.46 | JademusSreg | Sure, but more importantly, I don't think more than one (dialog) body is needed. =D |
| 05:43.07 | ArcanePariah | Trigger module always felt clean, like they spent the most time on it. Data editor.... I think they spent tons of time on it, but it was so vast, some instability was bound to crop up |
| 05:43.27 | miushock | ok i got it working, thanks so much Jade and AP |
| 05:43.34 | ArcanePariah | Not a problem |
| 05:43.35 | ArcanePariah | :D |
| 05:43.38 | JademusSreg | Pathing optimizations applies very much to devleopment tools, haha. |
| 05:43.42 | ArcanePariah | Let the good times roll |
| 05:43.42 | JademusSreg | No problem. |
| 05:44.19 | JademusSreg | hrb |
| 05:44.22 | miushock | in case you're curious, the key thing is the 'rotation ignored by unit' field |
| 05:44.34 | ArcanePariah | Yes, arguably it is more important to develop tools that are effieicen then anything else, and in this area, Microsoft is king, from all accounts, VS is still the best IDE to work with |
| 05:44.37 | miushock | need to enable that, it's disabled by default |
| 05:44.51 | ArcanePariah | Interesting, thank you |
| 05:44.56 | miushock | nooo ap noooo |
| 05:45.06 | miushock | vim is the best ide to work with XD |
| 05:45.26 | ArcanePariah | Oh boy.... is this where I say Emacs is best, and let the flamewar commence? |
| 05:45.30 | ArcanePariah | XD |
| 05:45.45 | miushock | well i tried to use vi plug-in with vs |
| 05:45.59 | miushock | didnt feel very well about it |
| 05:46.26 | miushock | i have a feeling that ide like vs make programmers forget the most basic point of programming |
| 05:46.51 | ArcanePariah | Hmm... wouldn't suprise me, but from what i hear, things are changing over at MS, and the development tools team is pushing for more stuff (more plugins for more languages and using standards for them, like python and php) |
| 05:47.10 | miushock | making the work process more like add code -> run test -> debug cycle |
| 05:47.14 | JademusSreg | (and node.js) |
| 05:47.33 | ArcanePariah | Well... it depends on how you view programming, a means to an end or an end to itself? |
| 05:47.51 | ArcanePariah | More people are falling into the former catagory |
| 05:47.55 | ArcanePariah | category* |
| 05:48.10 | miushock | programming language as a tool can influence how ppl think alot |
| 05:48.37 | miushock | it's probably a bit unfair to compare c# and scripting languages |
| 05:49.17 | miushock | but when c# was struggling to deploy features like linq, ruby make those looked so much natural and easy to use |
| 05:49.37 | ArcanePariah | Maybe, but from my point of view, each language is making the same choice, because there is really a simple tradeoff to be made: What is more valuable, development resources (time/money/expertise) or execution resources (memory/runtime/diskspace)? |
| 05:49.54 | miushock | and i'm yet to see a 'ruby ide', everyone just use light weight text editors |
| 05:49.59 | miushock | for those scripting languages |
| 05:50.52 | miushock | the ideal goal is to match the right model with work |
| 05:51.05 | ArcanePariah | Welll for those scripting languages, I see the choice that developer time is more expensive and valued, so less emphasis on the resources of the code, whereas with C/C++, etc, runtime is more valued, so more time is spent on tools to favor that goal (like VS) |
| 05:51.16 | miushock | c and memory management would be a good example pair of right tool for right work |
| 05:52.04 | ArcanePariah | Agreed, also the scale of the program matters, scripting programs TEND (not always) to be smaller |
| 05:52.28 | miushock | scripting language for now is really good for oo modeling work |
| 05:53.03 | miushock | like.. if you get some OO model right, scripting language can give you the most precise implementation |
| 05:53.27 | miushock | modern programming has no place for c++ i'd say |
| 05:53.35 | miushock | it's kinda mixing different level of works |
| 05:54.20 | miushock | a better way is to pilot with scripting languages and write c extension based on profiling result |
| 05:55.22 | miushock | so if you value the develop time, scripting languages are better choices since you can forget about computer architecture details |
| 05:55.55 | miushock | and if you value run time more, c is the right language |
| 05:56.39 | miushock | either way, one language for everything solution (C++/Java/C#) kinda a step behind the edge |
| 05:57.05 | miushock | so is the IDE driven programming model associated with them |
| 06:00.09 | JademusSreg | Programming languages and their iterations are tools developed to manage the complexity of solving domain specific problems. Arguing any value other than the objective qualities of their technical implementations, utility, or usage is silly. It thing to subjectively appreciate |
| 06:00.25 | JademusSreg | It's one thing to subjectively appreciate their aesthetic quality. |
| 06:01.08 | JademusSreg | Or share horror stories with a particularly unpleasant language, as a matter of personal taste. |
| 06:01.51 | miushock | i'd agree with most of it |
| 06:02.34 | miushock | however there's difference on how well a language approach certain 'domain' tho |
| 06:02.35 | JademusSreg | I mean, C# is sexy, and it's a shame I don't get to work with it more, given the less than stellar cross-platform deployments of .NET/CLR. |
| 06:04.01 | miushock | well it would be quite a burden to me to use any static typing languages for now |
| 06:04.05 | JademusSreg | But it would be silly to assert C# is objectively sexy, and that C++ is dead and just doesn't know it. =D |
| 06:04.13 | miushock | especially when it's oo related |
| 06:05.12 | miushock | well to my personal understanding, when the oo concept firstly brought out, small talk was the closet implementation of that concept |
| 06:06.03 | miushock | but there're other realistic reasons that c++ got popular |
| 06:06.41 | miushock | not reasons of language itself, but reception and background of general programmers |
| 06:07.08 | miushock | linus had bashed c++ as a language once |
| 06:07.17 | miushock | let me find the link for you |
| 06:09.02 | ArcanePariah | JademusSreg is there any reference for the UI XML, I'm looking at various elements, but can not see where to actually assign an image to a Image frame |
| 06:09.20 | miushock | http://lwn.net/Articles/249460/ |
| 06:09.30 | miushock | well i dont find the original post |
| 06:09.33 | ArcanePariah | Since many of the images in game are generated from the engine based on game state |
| 06:09.45 | miushock | there was a guy questioning him why not use c++ instead of c for git i think |
| 06:10.12 | ArcanePariah | The placeholder frames are here, but many (once you reach the bottom of references) end with <DescFlags val ="Internal"> which I take to be a reference to a hardcoded engine value |
| 06:10.28 | miushock | basically what i want to say is that c++ was the right language only for that special era |
| 06:10.54 | miushock | when people start to appreciate concept of oo but still cant rid of old habit just yet |
| 06:11.59 | miushock | it's really not like c, the sole purpose of c is just to play with memory or memory mapped addresses |
| 06:15.11 | JademusSreg | Sometimes you want a pick. Sometimes you want an axe. Sometimes you want an axepick. Languages (and their ecosystems) that evolve to address demand endure, however bloated and inscrutable it may become. Otherwise, they are supplanted by languages that better satisfies those demands. C++ isn't doomed because it is an abomination that allows people to produce some truly unintelligible, spiteful |
| 06:15.11 | JademusSreg | code and compile it to a devourer of resources; quite the opposite, C++ has endured precisely because it is an abomination. =D |
| 06:16.13 | miushock | haha |
| 06:16.42 | miushock | well some times it's hard for people to understand the 'domain' |
| 06:17.58 | miushock | one probably cant be very wrong if he got the right understanding of the 'domain' he's working with, even with c++ |
| 06:18.17 | JademusSreg | I'm always joking, and am always sincere. Yes, C++ is a monster, but it's the monster that gave people what they wanted, and so it continues to be popular. |
| 06:18.48 | ArcanePariah | I agree with Jade. An example of what happens when don't have C++ is Javascript, and serverside languages, 2 seperate domains, 2 seperate langauges, but often a headache to make them work together. The existance of Node.js is a sign of how Javascript becoming like C++ |
| 06:18.56 | miushock | to my personal experience i haven't seen many significant new project started with c++ in recent years |
| 06:19.43 | miushock | javascript is another problem tho... |
| 06:20.18 | miushock | the syntax design of js is horrible, yet it's true oo |
| 06:20.38 | ArcanePariah | Well, hardware has become both more expansive and constrained. For projects where hardware is of no object, you just use a higher level language then C++ (java, et al) and where hardware is a constriant, you use a small fast language (C), leavning little middle ground. I could see a project staring as C, and evolving to C++ if the design needs the OO paradigm |
| 06:20.43 | miushock | there're effort of fixing the syntax of js, like coffee script |
| 06:20.59 | miushock | still it's kinda hard to touch the front end |
| 06:21.41 | miushock | yeah that's totally the 'evil path' happened to so many projects |
| 06:22.06 | JademusSreg | I only bother to articulate all that above because it's always preferable to understand a thing than to assert it cannot be understood, as it's always preferable to discern the value of a thing than to project one's own values on it. =D |
| 06:22.12 | miushock | and the guy brought in 'c++' to original c project usually get raised in past 5-10 yrs, XD |
| 06:23.02 | ArcanePariah | JS... is weird, because it has elements of 00 with classes, it is procedual in nature, but it also included functional design such as the following: var fun = function() { echo "Test");}; foo(var); |
| 06:23.07 | JademusSreg | (That, and I just don't much care for feelings.) |
| 06:23.30 | miushock | well it's not weird if you're ok with functional programming |
| 06:23.42 | miushock | yet js is not fully functional programming either tho |
| 06:24.04 | ArcanePariah | Well, its the fact it mixes imperative/functional/OO paradigms in the same language, very few coders work in multiple paradigms to begin with |
| 06:24.24 | JademusSreg | Arc, the way you describe it, JS is following C++ survival strategy, haha. |
| 06:24.25 | ArcanePariah | And most langauges stick to one paradigm |
| 06:24.33 | ArcanePariah | Jade, yes, yes it is |
| 06:25.04 | ArcanePariah | Many hate on JS, but when asked for a viable replacement, they can not provide one |
| 06:25.25 | miushock | imperative way matches the human intuition with Turing machine the most |
| 06:25.50 | ArcanePariah | The point is that it fufills a niche, providing client interactivity over a network, with architechture neutral implementation |
| 06:25.57 | miushock | like.. you actually 'instruct' the machine what to do |
| 06:26.01 | JademusSreg | More accurately, web dev and its once universally reviled "designer" language have risen with the internet's advent to become the defacto dominant platform. |
| 06:26.03 | ArcanePariah | Yes |
| 06:26.11 | ArcanePariah | and Yes |
| 06:26.42 | miushock | there're also backward compatibility concerns of js too |
| 06:26.47 | miushock | so not much we can complain abut js |
| 06:26.49 | ArcanePariah | Of course, that has led to the exact same secruity issues that occur when data (markup/layout) is mixed with logic (JS Code, serverside scripts) |
| 06:26.50 | miushock | just need to accept it |
| 06:27.28 | ArcanePariah | Many of such problems (Sql injection comes to mind) have been solved, but people still fail to utlize them |
| 06:27.36 | ArcanePariah | them = the solutions |
| 06:27.41 | JademusSreg | Anyway, this discussion reminds me of all the serialization method classes I've been busily not-coding. =D |
| 06:27.44 | JademusSreg | brb |
| 06:28.06 | ArcanePariah | Only a programmer would make it sound like not doing something is an activity :D |
| 06:28.15 | JademusSreg | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:29.24 | miushock | it's exactly the way human learn tho, you want to be able to do something when you're still learning the problem, or trying to understand the problem domain |
| 06:29.30 | JademusSreg | (Keyboard flipped the fuck out. Thank goodness I hadn't yet launched eclipse, haha.) |
| 06:29.39 | JademusSreg | brb++ |
| 06:29.45 | miushock | and after you have better understanding about the problem you wished you wasn't able to do specific wrong things |
| 06:30.22 | miushock | but the first out (usually flawed) solution gain popularity and become hard to get rid of |
| 06:31.22 | miushock | anyways, going back to my 'disengage ability' |
| 06:31.56 | miushock | i wish i can finish making this by tmr, yet i know i need to work on it for at least 3 month XD |
| 06:32.34 | JademusSreg | (That's Blizzard Time™) |
| 06:42.44 | ArcanePariah | JademusSreg back to an earlier question I had, is there a reference for the UI XML? I can not seem to find a way to assign an image to an image frame, and I would rather skip hooking it up and setting it at run time if at all possible |
| 06:43.10 | ArcanePariah | (Although that may be what is needed...) |
| 06:43.21 | JademusSreg | (Remember that thing I linked earlier?) |
| 06:44.11 | JademusSreg | (Just in case: http://www.sc2mapster.com/paste/7445/ ) |
| 06:46.33 | JademusSreg | (The tokens are apparently undocumented, but I'm familiar with them. # is for a constant reference, ## is for a racial-suffix constant reference, @ is an externalized asset path reference, and @@ is a racial-suffix externalized asset reference.) |
| 06:48.06 | ArcanePariah | Ok |
| 06:48.08 | ArcanePariah | Thanks |
| 06:52.39 | JademusSreg | (Oh, also, to use the element support list, find the frame type or class, then check if it has a given element, then notice the constant reference describing the value type, or if any of its parent class frames contain a given element. It's dense, but navigable. =D ) |
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| 07:25.42 | ArcanePariah | Ok JademusSreg, from the references provided, you can not assign a constant image to a frame in the UI, it must be assigned at run time |
| 07:26.09 | ArcanePariah | Which is kind of lame, it makes using frames with images useless as templates, might as well use dialog items |
| 07:26.15 | JademusSreg | Haha |
| 07:26.32 | JademusSreg | Let's backup. What does your XML look like? |
| 07:26.48 | JademusSreg | Paste me, paste me so hard. =D |
| 07:27.21 | ArcanePariah | https://pastee.org/75bdn |
| 07:27.30 | ArcanePariah | Also, it did not recognize the image element in the frame |
| 07:27.33 | ArcanePariah | so might as well ignore that |
| 07:28.28 | JademusSreg | Alright. There are some issues here, and I'll illustrate what. Please hold. |
| 07:28.40 | ArcanePariah | My goal is to create a UI Frame, it will have 2 images in it (hardcoded, they appears the same to all players) and 2 label frames, which will be dynamic and hooked up |
| 07:29.31 | ArcanePariah | For now thought, I need to be able to create an image frame and assign it the image, without using triggers |
| 07:29.34 | ArcanePariah | though* |
| 07:30.22 | JademusSreg | First, Image supports the Texture element, not Image element. =D |
| 07:30.33 | ArcanePariah | I figured that much :P |
| 07:30.51 | ArcanePariah | I could not find an element in your reference that indicate that a image could be assigned |
| 07:31.10 | ArcanePariah | So it appears (to me) that all images are assigned to UI frames at runtime |
| 07:31.21 | JademusSreg | Second, iirc, raw paths don't use the @ (externalized asset path) token. |
| 07:31.42 | ArcanePariah | Ok, so what does the @ translate to then? |
| 07:31.56 | ArcanePariah | Externalized asset path = ??? |
| 07:34.29 | JademusSreg | Yeah, it points to an asset. For example, if you have the editor open, open Console, browse, search filter HelpPanelListBoxItemButtonNormal |
| 07:34.55 | JademusSreg | <setup/> |
| 07:35.03 | ArcanePariah | I get nothing... |
| 07:35.43 | JademusSreg | Correct. Because it's a key, in a text file, that contains the path to the asset. |
| 07:36.03 | ArcanePariah | Ok |
| 07:36.12 | ArcanePariah | So its like text in the data editor |
| 07:36.13 | JademusSreg | Which is why I went with the oddly verbose "externalized asset path". =D |
| 07:36.16 | JademusSreg | Exactly. |
| 07:36.46 | ArcanePariah | Ok, now that that's out of the way... how do you assign an image to the frame? |
| 07:36.47 | JademusSreg | Now input Assets or .txt |
| 07:37.05 | JademusSreg | One of those should bring up something, haha. |
| 07:37.39 | ArcanePariah | well yeah,. it brings up the entire assets folder worth of stuff, which is to say, damm near everything |
| 07:38.07 | JademusSreg | Ah, yeah, pardon, that's hilarious and entirely my fault. |
| 07:38.37 | JademusSreg | Anyway, like GameStrings.txt and such one finds in a map, there should be a text file containing the key-path pairs. |
| 07:38.53 | ArcanePariah | but yes, I now see a file called UI.txt and it has a long long list of mappings |
| 07:39.17 | JademusSreg | And the directory? |
| 07:39.41 | ArcanePariah | Hmm, EditorData\TextureReduction |
| 07:39.44 | ArcanePariah | \UI.txt |
| 07:39.51 | JademusSreg | Er. |
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| 07:41.00 | JademusSreg | Alright. I'll take the direct approach. |
| 07:41.37 | JademusSreg | Search filter Assets.txt |
| 07:42.06 | ArcanePariah | Ok, i'm looking at it, very short list in it |
| 07:42.22 | ArcanePariah | just a list of cinematic sounds/videos |
| 07:43.51 | JademusSreg | Erm. |
| 07:44.03 | JademusSreg | Oh, right. |
| 07:45.03 | JademusSreg | Silly me, the browse module has one crippling flaw; it only displays the furthest file versions in the dependency system. |
| 07:45.53 | JademusSreg | My apologies. Point is that Assets.txt is the commonly used text file for containing asset key-path pairs. |
| 07:46.17 | ArcanePariah | Ok, makes sense |
| 07:46.54 | ArcanePariah | Now on to the main question at hand, can one hardcode the image of a frame in the UI editor, or must it be hooked up and set during run time? |
| 07:47.22 | JademusSreg | And while I've not tested adding asset key-path pairs to the other similar files, pretty certain that if you have an Assets.txt file in your document mpq's root path, it will be loaded along with the others. |
| 07:47.38 | ArcanePariah | Also, when one hooks up an existing frame, how do you then manipulate it? Does it count as a new frame created and you can reference it with Last Dialog Item created? |
| 07:48.08 | JademusSreg | Scripters allocate them to variables directly, but yeah, last created is reliable. |
| 07:49.09 | JademusSreg | And hooking into an existing frame, well, one manipulates it as one would a dialog item of said type. May need to clarify that part. |
| 07:50.53 | ArcanePariah | Ok, so I can hook up a dialog item once and change it, and it will change it for all players? |
| 07:51.21 | JademusSreg | But yes, you can define the Texture element value however you like: constant token, racial constant token, externalized asset path token, racial externalized asset path token, or even an infernal raw path string. =D |
| 07:52.09 | JademusSreg | Oh, and it may be necessary to preload the asset by declaring it in the preload list (Map > Preload shit). |
| 07:52.27 | ArcanePariah | So Texture = Image |
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| 07:52.54 | ArcanePariah | So I need to assign the texture value for the image frame |
| 07:53.02 | JademusSreg | If you change a property for PlayerGroupAll(), then yes, it would certainly change for all players, but I thing that's perhaps not what you meant. |
| 07:53.45 | JademusSreg | You can. Otherwise it will be instanced with the default "null" texture, that light blue fallback. |
| 07:57.28 | JademusSreg | I suspect I've got an incomplete perspective on the problem. =D |
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| 08:02.46 | ArcanePariah | Ok, next problem, how does one instantiate a custom frame? |
| 08:04.26 | ArcanePariah | From my understanding, the only Frame the game creates is the GameUI one, and everything that is contained within it |
| 08:04.55 | ArcanePariah | So it compiles all the templates that define frames, and basically nests everything together to create the GameUI we see |
| 08:05.44 | JademusSreg | This is going to sound dreadfully ugly. A new layout in the UI module, usual meta and containing Desc tag, and then the ugly. Where ever in the GameUI structure one wants to instantiate it, one includes the full path in the frame's name attribute. I'll provide an example (I should have one on hand). |
| 08:05.46 | ArcanePariah | So if one wants a custom frame to appear, one must include it the GameUI SC2 Layout file or in one of frames present somewhere in the GameUI one |
| 08:05.59 | ArcanePariah | Oh ok |
| 08:06.01 | ArcanePariah | I've done that |
| 08:07.05 | JademusSreg | opens an 8-month old map. |
| 08:08.06 | ArcanePariah | Let me show you what I ahve and you can point to what I need to fix |
| 08:08.19 | JademusSreg | Damn, didn't have the example, but did have some fun old UI shit. |
| 08:09.06 | ArcanePariah | https://pastee.org/6w933 |
| 08:09.33 | JademusSreg | From my custom template demo: https://pastee.org/jjfev |
| 08:10.02 | JademusSreg | Hrm. |
| 08:10.36 | ArcanePariah | The top part is where I wish to instatiate it, bottom part is the actual custom frame I've defined |
| 08:10.58 | JademusSreg | Looks mostly correct, except perhaps one part, gotta double check. |
| 08:12.10 | JademusSreg | Alright. No obvious issue I see. |
| 08:12.14 | JademusSreg | =D |
| 08:15.20 | JademusSreg | Strange use of anchors, but shouldn't break shit. Maybe. |
| 08:28.25 | ArcanePariah | Ok, so it isn't working, it is giving errors like it can not find my custom frame definition |
| 08:28.33 | JademusSreg | =D |
| 08:29.13 | JademusSreg | Alright, let's try again, but this time, paste the layout files individually, with file name, too. =D |
| 08:29.22 | ArcanePariah | Ok |
| 08:30.08 | ArcanePariah | This is the AmmoUI File |
| 08:30.09 | ArcanePariah | https://pastee.org/qwdu5 |
| 08:31.02 | ArcanePariah | This is where I'm trying to use it, in my override file of GameUI |
| 08:31.03 | ArcanePariah | https://pastee.org/6qfkg |
| 08:32.20 | JademusSreg | And the error message is simply that it can't find the template? |
| 08:33.19 | ArcanePariah | <PROTECTED> |
| 08:34.31 | JademusSreg | Alright. Do you see the DescIndex.SC2Layout file? |
| 08:35.22 | ArcanePariah | https://pastee.org/3c2br |
| 08:36.02 | JademusSreg | Move AmmoUI above GameUI Override if it allows. |
| 08:37.06 | ArcanePariah | Can one rearrange that file if using an MPQ editor? |
| 08:37.12 | ArcanePariah | Or will it screw up the map? |
| 08:37.51 | ArcanePariah | Guess I'm about to find out |
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| 08:38.24 | JademusSreg | Shouldn't screw it up. And GameUI should be at the bottom of it anyway, since it depends on that shit. |
| 08:39.23 | JademusSreg | Oh, and you don't need to redefine the template attribute on existing frames, iirc. |
| 08:40.02 | ArcanePariah | Yes, I think I just forogt that one element |
| 08:45.31 | ArcanePariah | Ok, it worked, yay!, Now the texture/image didn't autoresize to the smaller area, so will need to play with that |
| 08:46.45 | kingTD | infested arena 3 have proper skill tree (best example for me be like from Path of Exile) |
| 08:46.50 | JademusSreg | Yup. iirc, I included a number of terms for fields which only accept preset values. |
| 08:48.08 | JademusSreg | Hm, forgot to add the Image tile slice presets. Hm. |
| 08:48.38 | ArcanePariah | Ok, for the sizing, how does the Hidth/Width values interact with the anchors? |
| 08:49.25 | JademusSreg | Er, as one would logically expect them to behave. Anchor wouldn't be much use if it moved. =D |
| 08:50.00 | JademusSreg | Oh, wait, haha, wrong context. |
| 08:50.14 | ArcanePariah | Well say I have a Frame with size 100x100, and in it I have a image frame that has anchor left set to the parent left, and anchor right set to parent right, but width is only 50 |
| 08:50.21 | ArcanePariah | Where would the image frame end up?? |
| 08:51.13 | JademusSreg | Well, hopefully pos="Mid" |
| 08:52.32 | JademusSreg | It gets a bit silly, I suppose, and maybe not all that intuitive. |
| 08:52.58 | ArcanePariah | So the anchors are just reference points |
| 08:53.20 | ArcanePariah | And using all valid ones + height/width, it determines the position |
| 08:54.56 | JademusSreg | The side defines a relationship, the pos is the position on the declaring frame to which the frame positions relative to the relative's side. The offset, then, and adjustment made in relation to this position. It has the net effect of, for most cases, multiple possible inputs to the Anchor element resulting in the same apparent end state. |
| 08:55.32 | JademusSreg | *The offset, then, is an adjustment |
| 08:57.24 | JademusSreg | For pos="Mid" the dimensions aren't all that important. But Min and Max pos values, that influences the result. |
| 08:58.55 | JademusSreg | Often, one sees Min and Max used for opposing sides, or said sides both set to Mid, perfectly routine, simple behavior. |
| 09:00.22 | ArcanePariah | MMhmm |
| 09:00.40 | ArcanePariah | On dialog item hookups, what path do you specify? |
| 09:00.49 | ArcanePariah | Does it need to be a full path to the UI element? |
| 09:01.39 | JademusSreg | But other combinations are possible; on could, for example, chain together frames and force them to avoid overlap with side-to-side relative anchoring (rather like observer production tabs). |
| 09:01.54 | JademusSreg | One moment. |
| 09:02.51 | ArcanePariah | Indeed, that is what is used for the inventory buttons, the Min is set to adjacent button's Right anchor |
| 09:03.10 | JademusSreg | Layout path. |
| 09:03.32 | JademusSreg | Er, layout path for templates, and... |
| 09:03.35 | ArcanePariah | So, full path, as in... GameUI/ConsoleContainer... |
| 09:03.38 | JademusSreg | checks a different file. |
| 09:04.43 | ArcanePariah | Oh its full path |
| 09:04.45 | JademusSreg | Template use desc layout/frame path. |
| 09:04.53 | ArcanePariah | Just looked at the Blizzard tutorial lol |
| 09:04.57 | JademusSreg | And hookup uses the instance frame path. |
| 09:05.06 | ArcanePariah | Should have looked there first :D |
| 09:05.11 | JademusSreg | Damn, need some better defined terms, haha. |
| 09:05.14 | JademusSreg | But yeah. |
| 09:06.40 | ArcanePariah | Ironically, said guide from Blizzard was over a year ago, and the one part they mention they would add, they ofc haven't (being able to select the UI frame from a tree instead of typing in a string) |
| 09:07.26 | JademusSreg | Hah, there's actually some data in the editor XML for that, and the devs confirmed last time I asked that the feature is NYI. |
| 09:08.00 | ArcanePariah | NYI = Not Yet Implemented? |
| 09:08.04 | JademusSreg | Yup. |
| 09:08.26 | ArcanePariah | Sometimes I wonder if they truly need more staff, seems like the editor is constantly a WIP |
| 09:08.44 | JademusSreg | Even forced the editor to assign hotkeys to enable the view mode to which you refer, but the code simply isn't there to handle it. |
| 09:09.51 | ArcanePariah | The thing is... they can't be short on applicants, given where they are, I'm going to the school they proabably get most the recruits from lol |
| 09:10.00 | ArcanePariah | They are literally 10 minutes from UCI |
| 09:10.40 | ArcanePariah | How many people do they have working on the editor? The impression I've gotten is like only 4-5 |
| 09:11.05 | ArcanePariah | Like, theres Dele, Tyr, and like 1 other I've seen post |
| 09:15.32 | JademusSreg | Any quality articulated about and received by a social system is an argument in the feedback-driven process of its self-identity. Which is to say, Blizzard turns away scores of applicants because they receive scores of applicants, they receive them because they are exclusive and prestigious and a bit cabalistic, and must behave as such to enjoy the benefits of being labeled as such, not |
| 09:15.32 | JademusSreg | least of which is having so many applicants from which to choose. |
| 09:16.08 | JademusSreg | =D |
| 09:16.42 | JademusSreg | If that were written phonetically, it would have a finnegan's wake vibe there, haha. |
| 09:16.44 | JademusSreg | brb |
| 09:16.57 | ArcanePariah | TL;DR, they are elitist :P |
| 09:18.25 | JademusSreg | Yes, but my version was more entertaining. |
| 09:19.50 | JademusSreg | My thesis-first |
| 09:20.13 | JademusSreg | manner of speaking seems an ill fit for IRC, but yet it works. |
| 09:20.24 | JademusSreg | brb |
| 09:28.30 | ArcanePariah | Hmm... is there a way to hook up and manipulate an entire frame? |
| 09:28.40 | JademusSreg | Elaborate? |
| 09:28.42 | ArcanePariah | Like, it lets me hook up images, buttons, etc. |
| 09:28.47 | ArcanePariah | But I want to hook up the parent frame |
| 09:28.55 | ArcanePariah | And hide it, thus hiding everything within |
| 09:29.06 | ArcanePariah | Would I choose Type of panel? |
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| 09:32.33 | ArcanePariah | Ok, yeah |
| 09:32.39 | ArcanePariah | Type Panel is for entire frames |
| 09:32.44 | ArcanePariah | Excellent |
| 09:34.17 | JademusSreg | Ah, yes, as mentioned, Panel is basically just type Frame. |
| 09:43.24 | JademusSreg | And Ahli, as mentioned previously, determined how to access usually-inaccessible frame types. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10262437059 |
| 09:45.33 | kingTD | Zolden until you havent made when enemy team dies to continue playing there is just plain borring. Since making such progress and building shit... Score screen is just isnt rewarding at all |
| 09:46.34 | JademusSreg | Twod, you played my demo last night? I forget if you were at NA map night. |
| 09:47.36 | kingTD | you really did lost me in that group. I was |
| 09:48.40 | Zolden | kingTD i'll make it so ppl with higher elo have access to shiny ass builders |
| 09:48.52 | kingTD | pfff |
| 09:48.54 | kingTD | boring\ |
| 09:49.03 | kingTD | i want resource explotation |
| 09:49.06 | Zolden | so, you want to keep playing after winning? |
| 09:49.45 | Zolden | also, shiny ass builders won't be boring |
| 09:49.48 | kingTD | yes |
| 09:50.01 | JademusSreg | It was a large group. I remember Zolden, and you said funny things about Zolden, and a Noobinator or something, and a "Bratzo" whatever that is, and Ahli who actually defeated the it, dealing more than 4 billion damage total throughout 40 minutes of grinding. |
| 09:50.09 | kingTD | i want to see how far i can go with those players that stays playing |
| 09:50.18 | Zolden | i don't see how is this fun, but i have this point in my list and will give it further consideraation |
| 09:50.23 | JademusSreg | "the it", haha. The boss. |
| 09:50.54 | Zolden | the it sounds scary |
| 09:51.01 | JademusSreg | A special King Twod mode that only triggers if twod is in game. |
| 09:51.04 | kingTD | plus then add a voting. like when game ends, Win game or Continue playing with timer (10-15 secs) and if player doesnt press anything just end the game in victory for him |
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| 09:51.50 | Zolden | JademusSreg wasn't it forbidden, i remember there was something about special king twod modes in the agreement |
| 09:52.25 | Zolden | kingTD alright, it has a chance to be implemented, but not that big |
| 09:52.38 | kingTD | thats sad then |
| 09:52.51 | kingTD | if you dont have any priority for that being implemented :( |
| 09:53.00 | kingTD | you lost one player already |
| 09:53.28 | Zolden | not less sad then the fact that we won't benefit from the immortality that will be researched most probably after we die, or will be too expensive |
| 09:53.33 | Zolden | *not more sad |
| 09:54.44 | Zolden | kingTD I never used "keep playing" after winning option in caesar III, you know |
| 09:54.57 | JademusSreg | Right right, the Geneva Convention's mild suggestion not to torture people, you're right Zol. |
| 09:54.57 | kingTD | yeah |
| 09:54.57 | Zolden | nothing personal, just don't get the fun |
| 09:55.48 | kingTD | but here is the problem that enemy side of players isnt really interracticing with you as a player so you still playing for those resource |
| 09:56.01 | Zolden | Bibendus are you satisfied now? will you keep working on the map or switch to something else? |
| 09:56.32 | Zolden | kingTD there will be more interaction with enemies via sends and maybe even towers that attack mines |
| 09:56.47 | kingTD | hmmm |
| 09:56.58 | JademusSreg | Oh yes, congrats, Bib. Look forward to the interview. |
| 09:57.00 | kingTD | seems like game going to be worse :/ |
| 09:57.48 | Zolden | kingTD it will be better, because there's feedback countour involved |
| 09:58.56 | DeadZergling | Hi Zolden, please make Subdolak have sends, or delete it |
| 10:00.19 | DeadZergling | also, enemy sends are going to players who are no longer in game if they leave |
| 10:02.00 | Zolden | ty will fix |
| 10:02.06 | Zolden | and will add subdolak sends |
| 10:02.35 | Zolden | now send system is nothing but a placeholder, it will be reworked and gain some sense |
| 10:02.54 | DeadZergling | yea, I had the worst game ever tonight |
| 10:03.09 | DeadZergling | I got like 1 metal and 5 subdolak mines |
| 10:03.16 | DeadZergling | had to fight for a couple farms just to do sends |
| 10:05.15 | DeadZergling | had 0 magic the entire game |
| 10:06.32 | kingTD | cool story bro |
| 10:06.51 | DeadZergling | let me tell you another |
| 10:06.53 | DeadZergling | fuck you kingTD |
| 10:07.01 | Zolden | lol |
| 10:07.04 | kingTD | :DDDDD |
| 10:11.07 | JademusSreg | Zuple. |
| 10:15.27 | DeadZergling | out of curiosity Zolden, how many HPs do the food based upgrade heroes have? |
| 10:15.42 | Bommes | Hello. |
| 10:18.18 | ArcanePariah | JademusSreg, by any chance, is there a convoluted or crazy way to make a label in an exiting frame selfupdate, ie I tie the label text value to a trigger varaible and it refreshes itself without further intervention? |
| 10:18.52 | DeadZergling | I don't really see a way around needing tank type units with your current setup, especially in the later rounds, hoping you left other routes to that other than hoping you get oil mechs |
| 10:19.28 | Zolden | DeadZergling they have more than others, also they have some nice abils, like shield aura of angel, or hurting attackers response of the rexxar |
| 10:20.23 | Zolden | DeadZergling oil mech are nerfed, also marauder nerfed. Balancing researchable units is something that should be done during these tests |
| 10:20.50 | DeadZergling | not uploaded yet I take it? |
| 10:21.09 | JademusSreg | Arc, no, but if it has a data reference tag, and you use UserType, that works. |
| 10:21.13 | Zolden | not yet, just need to add more fixes, will upload in 1/2 hours |
| 10:22.50 | DeadZergling | the marauders really aren't that strong, if the enemies can get to them they are pretty much screwed |
| 10:22.54 | DeadZergling | same with all your ranged, really |
| 10:23.59 | Zolden | marauders were nerfed by a tiny amount of damage |
| 10:24.05 | JademusSreg | Arc, and if it's a "singleton" or per-player instance, there's basically no performance impact. |
| 10:24.22 | ArcanePariah | Ok |
| 10:25.08 | DeadZergling | well that's good, my other main complaint would be the + resource counts lying to me |
| 10:25.09 | JademusSreg | Oh, and unit status, that's useful. |
| 10:25.39 | DeadZergling | like let's say I have 10 metals, I can't quite upgrade that marine to marauder |
| 10:25.59 | DeadZergling | but wanting to make use of it all, and the board telling me +9 next round |
| 10:26.09 | DeadZergling | I go ahead ahead and boost mining at the cost of 7 minerals |
| 10:26.12 | ArcanePariah | Ok, next weird question, I create a dialog item from template, now how do I access the elements within? So in my case I created a template dialog item that has 2 labels and 2 images in it, how can I hookup that dialog item labels and change them? |
| 10:26.28 | DeadZergling | 3 metals left, round comes around, and tada, I now have 11 metals |
| 10:26.38 | DeadZergling | nice trolling, Mines N' Magic! |
| 10:27.29 | JademusSreg | In the paste, there's UnitStatusAmmo frame. One could use that with DialogControlHookupUnitStatus. |
| 10:28.01 | ArcanePariah | Well, not quite going to work, my ammo system is trigger based, so.... |
| 10:28.23 | Zolden | lol |
| 10:28.28 | Zolden | DeadZergling ok, i'll check it |
| 10:28.53 | ArcanePariah | Basically, I have my template, I want to create the dialog items from the template, but now how do I access the frames within it? |
| 10:30.04 | JademusSreg | Well, subframe referencing is a tricky issue, so far as I am aware. There's very little support for that sort of thing, but since the subframes inherit the property state of the parent frame, you shouldn't need to access them if designed so that there's no conflict. |
| 10:30.19 | DeadZergling | aye, most games it wouldn't matter as much |
| 10:30.30 | DeadZergling | but is a huge part of the strategy for your particular game |
| 10:31.10 | ArcanePariah | Hmm... well that would be an issue since I have 2 labels within my template that are based on different values |
| 10:31.44 | JademusSreg | By setting the texture property of the parent frame via dialog control set blahblah, the Panel will be visibly unaffected, but a subframe with the texture property will use the value. |
| 10:31.51 | JademusSreg | How so? |
| 10:32.27 | ArcanePariah | Well if I set the parent frame Text to say "Blah", both labels within would become "Blah" correct? |
| 10:32.35 | JademusSreg | Yep. |
| 10:32.45 | ArcanePariah | Yeah.... well, that won't work then :/ |
| 10:32.51 | JademusSreg | Not so fast. |
| 10:32.58 | ArcanePariah | Need them to be differing values |
| 10:33.11 | JademusSreg | Sure. Describe the design. |
| 10:34.43 | ArcanePariah | A image (purely for show) and next to it, a label with the text set to the value of the unit hero current rounds of ammo, with another image after it (also for show) followed by a label with text set to the value of the unit hero current magazines of ammo |
| 10:35.05 | ArcanePariah | Currently is trigger based, but at some point in the future will convert to using charges to track ammo |
| 10:35.20 | JademusSreg | Easy to do with a single label. |
| 10:36.14 | ArcanePariah | Uggh.... I knew yo uwere going to say that, make a single label, SUPER wide, with the value = Rounds Magazines |
| 10:36.21 | ArcanePariah | as the text |
| 10:36.27 | Torhal | http://cdn-5.lifehack.org/wp-content/files/2013/11/fake-remote.jpg |
| 10:36.33 | JademusSreg | Not quite what I was going to say. |
| 10:36.54 | ArcanePariah | Ok, so single label, but need to include 2 values in to it |
| 10:37.38 | ArcanePariah | What did you have in mind? |
| 10:38.01 | JademusSreg | <img val="pissyIcon"/><d ref="pissyData.piss"/><br/><br/><img val="shittyIcon"/><d ref="shittyData.shit"/> |
| 10:38.20 | JademusSreg | Set once, update the data reference via trigger. |
| 10:38.49 | ArcanePariah | Hmm.... what? The text val can accpet data references? |
| 10:38.50 | JademusSreg | Saves th trouble of recompiling strings -and- text repeatedly ad infinitum. |
| 10:38.54 | JademusSreg | Haha |
| 10:39.00 | JademusSreg | Yes. |
| 10:39.04 | ArcanePariah | Learn something new everyday... |
| 10:39.06 | ArcanePariah | :P |
| 10:39.18 | JademusSreg | Immediately, open Text module. |
| 10:39.54 | ArcanePariah | Ok |
| 10:39.55 | JademusSreg | Add a new text or modify a worthless one, and tinker with the insert pulldown. |
| 10:40.10 | kingTD | Zolden killing with turrent doesnt give income from kill? |
| 10:40.22 | Zolden | kingTD yes, but it may change |
| 10:40.31 | ArcanePariah | Ok, I just didn't know that such values were accepted in the UI editor |
| 10:40.32 | JademusSreg | Format tags, color tags, data references, image tags. |
| 10:41.02 | JademusSreg | You're better off using the externalized asset path token. |
| 10:41.45 | JademusSreg | Or use the character codes in the text literal value, if you must. |
| 10:41.46 | ArcanePariah | Well... this makes my future life easier, I can just set this to data reference for the charges later on, and presto, selfupdating with no trigger code |
| 10:41.54 | JademusSreg | Yup. |
| 10:42.34 | ArcanePariah | Welp, I'm going to get some sleep, this has been very enlighterning |
| 10:42.37 | ArcanePariah | XD |
| 10:42.46 | JademusSreg | All those previous times I mentioned "data reference" in text, that's what I meant. |
| 10:42.47 | DeadZergling | the kills are sort of weird at the moment, they give income based on where they die right Zolden ? |
| 10:42.47 | JademusSreg | Haha |
| 10:42.54 | JademusSreg | Later Arc. |
| 10:43.02 | Zolden | DeadZergling yea, like 4-2-1 |
| 10:43.16 | Zolden | or rather 1-1/2-1/4 |
| 10:43.35 | JademusSreg | Oh, and the img tag support height and width attributes. |
| 10:43.38 | Zolden | but if main cost is 2, it's 2-1-1 |
| 10:44.19 | Zolden | JademusSreg yea, it was one of the usefulliest late explorations for me |
| 10:45.11 | Zolden | the only sad things is that there's a visual space between images that hasn't spaces between them in text |
| 10:45.53 | Zolden | otherwise, it would be a good way to visualise things |
| 10:46.01 | DeadZergling | by the way, is there any use to clicking those resources at the top right Z? |
| 10:46.26 | Zolden | clicking resources? |
| 10:46.31 | DeadZergling | your 7 displays |
| 10:46.44 | Zolden | why clicking them? |
| 10:46.46 | DeadZergling | do you plan to have clicking them do anything? |
| 10:46.55 | Zolden | do liike what? |
| 10:47.17 | DeadZergling | anything, was just curious, since it'd be nice if they could be unclickable if there is no use to clicking them |
| 10:47.36 | DeadZergling | every few lasers into rocks I do, damned resources in my way |
| 10:47.49 | Zolden | will they become unclickable if i remove tooltips? |
| 10:48.05 | DeadZergling | no, think there is another option you need to use |
| 10:48.19 | Zolden | i'd like to |
| 10:48.39 | Zolden | tooltips still can be used, while clicking is useless |
| 10:48.42 | DeadZergling | second, let me switch to a mode where I can view triggers |
| 10:49.25 | JademusSreg | Some day, my apostles will go forward and share the collected insight gathered in this dark age, cultivate the seeds of hope they plant in spreading my message: "Everyone is an idiot; don't worry about shit, laugh about and learn from it." <ironicpiety/> |
| 10:51.57 | DeadZergling | hrrrrmmm, not finding it, I'm almost positive there is a way to disable clicking though |
| 10:52.10 | JademusSreg | Wait, wats goin on? |
| 10:52.46 | DeadZergling | oh, Zolden uses buttons for his resource displays |
| 10:52.48 | Zolden | JademusSreg unclickabble dialog items, so they'd pass clicks through |
| 10:52.49 | DeadZergling | in order to get tooltips |
| 10:52.53 | JademusSreg | Easy. |
| 10:52.55 | Zolden | labels |
| 10:53.25 | JademusSreg | DialogControlPropertySetAsBoolean(blahblah Accepts Mouse false) |
| 10:53.42 | Zolden | ty |
| 10:56.04 | DeadZergling | yea that's the one, gui refers to it as Set Dialog Item Accept Mouse |
| 10:56.12 | DeadZergling | if you prefer that, forget if you do galaxy or not |
| 10:56.22 | JademusSreg | Haha. |
| 10:56.25 | JademusSreg | Yeah. |
| 10:57.33 | Zolden | i use both, depending on what's faster |
| 10:58.30 | kingTD | Zolden Oil resource model could be more visible like having the black splat |
| 10:58.50 | Zolden | kingTD true, will remake |
| 10:59.32 | DeadZergling | still say your first construction field having innate +1 magic would be more forgiving to those who aren't so lucky on that type |
| 10:59.52 | DeadZergling | or just innate +1 period, either/or |
| 11:00.06 | Zolden | yea, this is self-suggesting, will add |
| 11:02.28 | DeadZergling | cool thanks, your bg crowd (mostly me...) appreciates it. half my games tonight I got 0 magic |
| 11:03.02 | JademusSreg | Wats magic? |
| 11:03.13 | DeadZergling | the purple glowy resource JademusSreg |
| 11:03.24 | Zolden | the force from star wars |
| 11:03.32 | JademusSreg | Oh, I called that something else in my test with Zol. |
| 11:04.16 | JademusSreg | I just refered to it by what the icon looked vaguely like, since I didn't say any tooltips or labels or anything. |
| 11:04.45 | Zolden | clitoris |
| 11:05.00 | DeadZergling | i referred to metal as white crystals |
| 11:05.03 | DeadZergling | for a very long time |
| 11:05.16 | Zolden | white crystals is meth |
| 11:05.51 | JademusSreg | There was greybrownsomething, and meatshank, and some pills, and a green thing, and the conspicuous anatomical feature. |
| 11:05.53 | kingTD | quartz monster imba |
| 11:05.56 | kingTD | playing solo |
| 11:06.11 | DeadZergling | you just forgot to get tanks |
| 11:06.22 | DeadZergling | they not so bad with tanks guarding your ranged |
| 11:06.25 | kingTD | not really forgot |
| 11:06.31 | JademusSreg | Oh, and mud. |
| 11:06.49 | kingTD | im played melee with researchs of ranged |
| 11:07.04 | kingTD | marauders colossus |
| 11:07.18 | DeadZergling | Tanks > Melee for taking hits |
| 11:07.19 | Zolden | kingTD rapy, isnt it? |
| 11:07.29 | kingTD | yeah |
| 11:07.29 | DeadZergling | the galaxy destroyers are much worse |
| 11:07.51 | DeadZergling | from what I can tell, Galaxy Destroyers are supposed to be game enders, lol |
| 11:08.18 | Zolden | DeadZergling yea, but game dynamics required more waves |
| 11:08.19 | kingTD | so they come next after there quartz pps? |
| 11:08.20 | Zolden | will be 40 |
| 11:08.29 | Zolden | will use Triceron's units prosbbaly |
| 11:08.54 | Zolden | quartz, diamonsters, thor meiai, and finally space destroyers |
| 11:09.24 | DeadZergling | if you can get past quartz though, the diamonsters and thor are a joke |
| 11:10.27 | Zolden | ok, will up |
| 11:10.44 | JademusSreg | deploys Brilliance Aura. |
| 11:11.20 | Zolden | scared |
| 11:12.06 | JademusSreg | Thought of a badass mechanic. Wonder what I could do with it. =D |
| 11:12.16 | G0A | feels disturbance in his stupidity |
| 11:12.30 | DeadZergling | thx for the comment btw G0A |
| 11:12.41 | G0A | what comment? |
| 11:12.42 | DeadZergling | I did a lower rating than i would have so the terminator would visit me |
| 11:13.19 | Zolden | get a basin of melted metal |
| 11:13.57 | DeadZergling | please tell me this next upload will result in subdolak not being the red headed step child of resources |
| 11:15.25 | Zolden | he's the king of them |
| 11:15.41 | Zolden | i'll put it on loading screen |
| 11:15.48 | DeadZergling | at the moment he most certainly is not |
| 11:16.08 | DeadZergling | I know he can be used for last ditch defender upgrades, but if units are getting there post stage 20, you have already lost |
| 11:17.29 | DeadZergling | cool, so if subdolak was a milk shake, it would now bring all the boys to the yard? |
| 11:18.20 | DeadZergling | saw the music video for that once, her milkshakes need a few upgrades to be singing such a song I think |
| 11:19.32 | JademusSreg | Oh man, archaic reference, haha.\ |
| 11:20.52 | DeadZergling | pretty much aye |
| 11:21.05 | DeadZergling | I still feel the urge to quote MC hammer at times too |
| 11:22.15 | JademusSreg | Sounds painful. |
| 11:23.05 | DeadZergling | eh not so much really, just thankful to know nothing of current pop stars |
| 11:26.09 | *** join/#sc2mapster duckies (4d26cd7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.38.205.122) |
| 11:26.20 | DeadZergling | hide your female ducks |
| 11:26.28 | DeadZergling | that dangerous drake is on again! |
| 11:27.02 | duckies | gives DZ an intimidating look |
| 11:27.32 | DeadZergling | no please, not the barbed duck wang! |
| 11:29.07 | duckies | puts deadergling into deadoverlord and buries it under some deadcreep |
| 11:29.52 | DeadZergling | very merciful of you sir to only do that, and not perform duck rape magic on me |
| 11:32.24 | G0A | Zolden you need to make Reapers less imba |
| 11:32.49 | Zolden | merges both into DeadDuckling and releases the monster on a playground |
| 11:33.07 | Zolden | G0A yes, and also i need to remake the whole send system |
| 11:34.12 | duckies | and dont forget the blasted black cut in intro screen, tilt the flippin camera laready! |
| 11:34.49 | duckies | or I swear I'll get more apathetic about it every time I play! |
| 11:35.52 | Zolden | ok |
| 11:37.29 | duckies | quite compliant arent we, and add a 5th duck race while you're at it! :D |
| 11:38.40 | DeadZergling | I have a better idea |
| 11:38.46 | DeadZergling | change the sheeps into ducks for the food farms |
| 11:40.37 | JademusSreg | Quick question, anyone know what happens to units in a cargo if the containing unit enters a cargo> |
| 11:40.41 | JademusSreg | ? |
| 11:44.50 | JademusSreg | Hm. |
| 11:45.19 | kingTD | i think i saw something like it on sc2 mapster posted of a utube video |
| 11:46.07 | JademusSreg | I could imagine it going either way, working fine or fucking up entirely. Curious if anyone tested it. |
| 11:49.09 | kingTD | ok will be stuck in the HS for some time with such bad cards and tactics |
| 11:49.26 | JademusSreg | The HS? Homestuck? |
| 11:58.29 | DeadZergling | probably means the card game for those who can't mod |
| 12:00.34 | Zolden | hs means hitler stache |
| 12:01.00 | JademusSreg | Haha |
| 12:01.13 | JademusSreg | Oh yeah, that reminds me, I need to put my beta key to good use soon. |
| 12:02.42 | G0A | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZQonENcXlI |
| 12:05.26 | JademusSreg | Yeah, that was gorgeous. |
| 12:05.28 | JademusSreg | Haha |
| 12:07.22 | kingTD | Zolden when you update urself? |
| 12:10.40 | G0A | kingTD firmware update of Zolden's brain? |
| 12:10.51 | kingTD | yeah that one too |
| 12:11.50 | DeadZergling | bah, why can't scarlett play like that when I watch |
| 12:12.15 | DeadZergling | rather amusing for someone named Bomber to lose to that tactic twice in a row though |
| 12:26.16 | Zolden | kingTD what update do you mean? growing hitler's moustache? |
| 12:26.30 | kingTD | that one too |
| 12:36.36 | Zolden | kingTD updating |
| 12:36.56 | Zolden | some balance changes and lots of little things |
| 12:37.47 | JademusSreg | It's no wonder people don't know where to start with galaxy script; the old mapster wiki is full of incomplete, outdated, and willfully ignorant misinformation. =D |
| 12:39.01 | *** join/#sc2mapster Raziel (~Raziel@2a01:388:201:4190:c0ba:4243:8e99:245) |
| 12:39.15 | G0A | the whole sc2mapster wiki is very outdated |
| 12:41.01 | JademusSreg | Yep. |
| 12:41.23 | JademusSreg | prepares to use GUI macros for templated galaxy feature tests. |
| 12:41.37 | Zolden | someone went out for a date with it to outdate it? |
| 12:42.30 | Zolden | kingTD go test it on na |
| 12:43.10 | duckies | what did you change zol? |
| 12:44.16 | JademusSreg | Yep, it dated so far out it came back around through the interior of a cosmic Klein surface and anihilated on contact with its oppositely charged self. |
| 12:44.45 | *** join/#sc2mapster sc2println (~flo@2a02:810d:1680:60a:f66d:4ff:fe93:2e29) |
| 12:45.47 | JademusSreg | drops the mic dramatically. |
| 12:46.27 | JademusSreg | brb |
| 12:49.58 | Zolden | duckies some balance mostly |
| 13:07.53 | JademusSreg | Brak. |
| 13:20.01 | *** join/#sc2mapster Kueken (~Kueken@brsg-4dbb0118.pool.mediaWays.net) |
| 13:20.40 | Kueken | grrr |
| 13:20.50 | JademusSreg | ? |
| 13:21.00 | Kueken | newest flash player update installed some antivirus software |
| 13:21.23 | Kueken | without even asking or any sort of checkbox I was able to find |
| 13:21.36 | JademusSreg | You've installed Sysinternals ProcessExplorer or a comparable administration tool? |
| 13:21.51 | Kueken | no idea what that is :D |
| 13:22.20 | JademusSreg | Here's the whole shebang. |
| 13:22.25 | JademusSreg | See ProcessExplorer. |
| 13:23.25 | Kueken | I just hate programs that do the whole "do you want to install this toolbar, use that as main search engine and set this as your default homepage, maybe install this program as well"? with all the options already checked |
| 13:23.48 | Kueken | and usually I just uncheck everything I see |
| 13:24.04 | Kueken | but Flashplayer didn't even give me the option |
| 13:24.08 | JademusSreg | Flash player and a number of other shitbundles perform their silent installs following the main installation. With a utility like ProcessExplorer, you can just wait until it finishes, then kill the process, and laugh and laugh and laugh. |
| 13:24.39 | JademusSreg | (Run in admin mode, of course.) |
| 13:25.09 | Kueken | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_Explorer |
| 13:25.11 | Kueken | that? |
| 13:25.25 | JademusSreg | Google chrome maintains its own flash player, so Adobe can eat a bag of genitals. |
| 13:25.27 | JademusSreg | And yes. |
| 13:29.39 | JademusSreg | Autoruns is nice, too. =D |
| 13:29.40 | *** join/#sc2mapster Moorhsum (~scraft@dsl-kpobrasgw1-54fac5-136.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 13:48.18 | *** join/#sc2mapster Serashin (4ff35825@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.243.88.37) |
| 14:05.46 | *** join/#sc2mapster Tolkfan (~Thunderbi@host-89-230-244-167.nowydwor.mm.pl) |
| 14:27.06 | *** join/#sc2mapster Tomura (~Tomura@HSI-KBW-149-172-117-81.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de) |
| 14:29.13 | duckies | hey g0a |
| 14:29.14 | duckies | re |
| 15:15.42 | DeadZergling | out for today, those queen sends at the start are way too much btw Zolden, lol |
| 15:16.36 | *** join/#sc2mapster Delphinium (jifengxian@60.166.99.172) |
| 15:25.39 | A1win | bloorg |
| 15:37.26 | Zolden | oink |
| 15:38.01 | G0A | Zolden what about making win condition trigger when wave end, so there could be tie if both team destroyed under the same wave? |
| 15:38.47 | JademusSreg | Another sexy dress shirt repaired. There's just something soothing about handstitching. =D |
| 15:39.15 | Zolden | G0A what benefits will it bring? |
| 15:40.00 | kingTD | Zolden update both on EU and NA? |
| 15:40.09 | G0A | interesting tie games and no more wins base on the luck that whose wave reaches center first |
| 15:40.41 | Zolden | JademusSreg i'd say there's a biochemical rewarding system exists in human brain for each successful attempt on entropy reducing |
| 15:41.02 | JademusSreg | I suspect you are entirely correct, Zol. |
| 15:41.08 | Zolden | G0A do you know any examples of where it works? |
| 15:42.27 | Zolden | in chess there are drwas, but still you mated king - you win even if next move mates yours |
| 15:43.57 | kingTD | 12312 |
| 15:43.58 | kingTD | 31231 |
| 15:43.59 | kingTD | 31321 |
| 15:43.59 | kingTD | 312 |
| 15:44.22 | JademusSreg | Don't have many suggestions for ZolTD. No shortage of ideas, but since TDs categorically elicit my disdain, wouldn't feel right for me to suggest sweeping changes to push it away from the TD archetype; instead I suggest modifications to what's there, notice faults, suggest solutions. |
| 15:45.01 | Zolden | also, "who dies first" in mutual trouble is an exciting part |
| 15:45.12 | JademusSreg | doesn't much care for the active/passive oscillation. |
| 15:45.59 | *** part/#sc2mapster G0A (~hookah604@91.83.182.24.pool.invitel.hu) |
| 15:46.31 | *** join/#sc2mapster G0A (~hookah604@91.83.182.24.pool.invitel.hu) |
| 15:47.03 | Zolden | JademusSreg you've done your part and mirrored what others rarely notice |
| 15:47.32 | JademusSreg | Glad to help. |
| 15:47.38 | Zolden | kingTD nice numbers, where di you get them? |
| 15:47.48 | kingTD | stole from your map |
| 15:48.06 | Zolden | hope it won't fall in ruins now |
| 15:48.59 | kingTD | zolden give range of the construct yard |
| 15:49.04 | kingTD | where it may buil |
| 15:51.45 | Zolden | it has one, but when many selected, it's not shown |
| 15:52.14 | Zolden | probably there's a way to show them, what if I ask Q |
| 15:52.56 | *** join/#sc2mapster ousnius (5fd0fa79@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.208.250.121) |
| 15:53.29 | Zolden | Kueken I have a range actor that is created at abil.cursor adn attached to a building. But if I have many oh this buildings selected, the range actor isnt' shown. Can I have it appear on all instances of the building? |
| 15:53.32 | JademusSreg | Do want it always visible or only on selection? |
| 15:53.44 | JademusSreg | Visible to the owner only, I expect. |
| 15:53.50 | Zolden | abil.cursor requires selection |
| 15:54.05 | Zolden | dunno, guess range actor has it in defaults |
| 15:54.26 | Kueken | so if you select one building it shows up, but if you select multiples, it doesn't show at all? |
| 15:54.28 | Kueken | or only 1 |
| 15:54.32 | Zolden | yes |
| 15:54.34 | JademusSreg | brb |
| 15:54.48 | Zolden | lemme check if it shown for one |
| 15:55.35 | ousnius | I might finally start to get better with music https://soundcloud.com/gryphace/dubstep_15_2-private-wip/s-Y4GqH |
| 15:55.54 | A1win | changed color coding on action bar, weapons now cyan instead of white: http://a1win.pp.fi/ss/sc2/ph/a96/SC2%202013-11-24%2017-54-43-53.jpg |
| 15:56.01 | kingTD | zolden fix reaper attack animation |
| 15:56.02 | Zolden | Kueken If I have many selected, none is shown |
| 15:56.10 | Kueken | interesting |
| 15:56.25 | Kueken | could be hardcoded |
| 15:56.38 | Kueken | in which case you might hav ea problem |
| 15:56.59 | A1win | so now I can do this: http://a1win.pp.fi/ss/sc2/ph/a96/SC2%202013-11-24%2017-56-26-13.jpg |
| 15:57.02 | A1win | http://a1win.pp.fi/ss/sc2/ph/a96/SC2%202013-11-24%2017-56-28-97.jpg |
| 15:58.19 | Zolden | Kueken can it be that some terms/host adjustments may make it show for all? |
| 15:58.25 | A1win | also moved the loadout box higher so it's not so easy to accidentally hover over another button since you're moving mouse more vertically |
| 15:59.00 | Zolden | A1win is it like putting abils in a stack? |
| 15:59.08 | A1win | hmm? |
| 15:59.09 | Zolden | kingTD ok |
| 15:59.19 | Zolden | A1win not sure waht is shown on these images |
| 15:59.23 | A1win | Zolden, that's loadout selection |
| 15:59.33 | A1win | while you're dead, you can change your gear |
| 15:59.48 | Zolden | i sese |
| 16:00.01 | Kueken | Zolden: possible... not sure though |
| 16:00.05 | A1win | http://a1win.pp.fi/ss/sc2/ph/a96/SC2%202013-11-24%2017-59-45-77.jpg |
| 16:00.29 | Kueken | there are limiting terms |
| 16:01.01 | Kueken | for example a cap term, that only allows 1 instance at a time |
| 16:01.04 | Zolden | would be perfect if it was showed for the closest one from the selection |
| 16:01.07 | Zolden | but all is also ok |
| 16:03.20 | *** join/#sc2mapster mille25 (54872a60@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.135.42.96) |
| 16:03.30 | mille25 | hi |
| 16:03.40 | ousnius | hi |
| 16:04.34 | Zolden | wiath cap = 1 term it jsut doesn't work |
| 16:05.18 | JademusSreg | wonders if it might have something to do with range actors creating themselves in a scope that exposes them to one another's messages, and if it might be solved by having the unit's create them (which ought to limit their scope and message conflicts. |
| 16:05.20 | JademusSreg | brb++ |
| 16:07.09 | ousnius | ; |
| 16:12.59 | A1win | :O now that I have two weapon modes, I can make pipebomb/stickybomb launcher from TFC/TF2 |
| 16:13.29 | A1win | one of the most enjoyable weapons I've used in FPS games |
| 16:20.16 | *** join/#sc2mapster Stewox (~chatzilla@cpe-86-58-34-166.static.triera.net) |
| 16:22.15 | Zolden | not sure if i've done it correctly, but making building create range instead of range create itself didn't work |
| 16:23.16 | JademusSreg | Er, to clarify, I didn't mean just a direct ActorCreate ShittyRange. |
| 16:23.44 | JademusSreg | What event did you use? |
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| 16:31.07 | kingTD | Zolden u havent fixed the resource spawning to close to cliff edge, i see |
| 16:36.15 | kingTD | Zolden some woman complain that there "still no patch notes" |
| 16:39.14 | kingTD | zolden why magicians need so much mana at the start? |
| 16:40.13 | *** join/#sc2mapster Moorhsum^ (moorhsum@dsl-kpobrasgw1-54fac5-136.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 16:40.29 | kingTD | almost every player sends that queen fucks up everyone |
| 16:41.35 | Zolden | kingTD I'll do it now |
| 16:41.47 | Zolden | patch notes will follow too |
| 16:41.54 | Zolden | but i forgot what changed |
| 16:42.12 | kingTD | say that you gave everyone a candy |
| 16:42.18 | kingTD | the end of the notes |
| 16:42.36 | kingTD | ffs need 1g |
| 16:51.33 | ousnius | I'm kinda happy with how the b.net arcade systems work now |
| 16:51.51 | ousnius | no matter what WIP map I host, it's always filled within 10 minutes on EU |
| 16:52.39 | kingTD | cool story bro |
| 16:53.06 | ousnius | it's true though :P |
| 17:07.34 | duckies | you should make some 14 player maps :3 |
| 17:08.05 | kingTD | nice with elfs 4 iron mines at the start |
| 17:14.48 | kingTD | those melee ogre fucks are so slow at killing takes forever to wait for them to die and kill fucks |
| 17:19.07 | Stewox | i think i found out why im bored, not actually, but partly ... .because i need to find the correct people to talk to, and those correct people happen to be conspiracy theorists, im serious this is a weird pscyhological issue, going for 6 months, i can't talk to stupid sheeple anymore, it bores me, and makes me crazy as they are, kind of a hypnotization ... |
| 17:19.33 | Stewox | the other guys from before would understand, when i was talking about UI and dialogs |
| 17:19.40 | JademusSreg | Random stuff for galaxy script extracted from the applications: https://pastee.org/5sv9h |
| 17:19.46 | A1win | video of all 5 weapons and their fire modes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afe2bjgo_jM |
| 17:20.32 | Stewox | I just think I can't stand gamers any more ... i feel like talking to children :/ |
| 17:20.54 | JademusSreg | Wazor beemz. |
| 17:20.59 | A1win | EMP secondary is a bit odd |
| 17:21.06 | ousnius | probably because 30% of gamers are under 20 |
| 17:21.08 | A1win | since it's basically just primary with no self dmg penalty :P |
| 17:21.13 | A1win | (and no range) |
| 17:21.42 | JademusSreg | Yeah, EMP was difficult to use. |
| 17:21.49 | Stewox | these guys in here are all over 25 or 30 and they felt stupid as hell many times :p |
| 17:22.00 | A1win | JademusSreg, it's fine when you get used to it |
| 17:22.08 | A1win | but the secondary mode is meh |
| 17:22.15 | A1win | that just creates an explosion around you |
| 17:22.21 | Stewox | half of the guys in here have families |
| 17:22.34 | Stewox | but they think they're smarter because of that |
| 17:22.40 | kingTD | zolden melee build vs drone is imba since melee warriors prioritizes to attack released drones and not the big boss drone |
| 17:22.43 | JademusSreg | Yeah, could be the way I playtest, where I'm analyzing more than reacting, haha. |
| 17:22.57 | A1win | :P |
| 17:23.06 | A1win | in our test games, I've found myself using mostly the EMP |
| 17:23.56 | Deaod | Jade, do you happen to know what the keywords default, code, and breakpoint are used for? |
| 17:23.57 | JademusSreg | Enjoy the pewpewz. |
| 17:24.10 | JademusSreg | I know what breakpoint does. |
| 17:24.22 | Deaod | is the name descriptive? |
| 17:24.40 | JademusSreg | It behaves exactly like a breakpoint insertion, but can be defined statically in script. |
| 17:24.48 | Deaod | oh, wait, you need default for switches |
| 17:24.50 | JademusSreg | And toggled from the debugger. |
| 17:24.54 | Deaod | that leaves ... code |
| 17:25.22 | JademusSreg | The enduring mystery. |
| 17:25.31 | Deaod | hm |
| 17:25.52 | Deaod | they still havent added color to the keywords the editor knows about |
| 17:26.59 | JademusSreg | On a related note, working out a script macro design I can use to test shit. |
| 17:27.36 | Deaod | macros? |
| 17:27.38 | JademusSreg | Perhaps code is a modifier applied to type. |
| 17:27.52 | mille25 | JademusSreg: cant wait for the 2.1 data mining :D |
| 17:28.48 | kingTD | Zolden why does sell button enabled when tower is in battle mode? |
| 17:28.52 | JademusSreg | Macro tokens are used by GUI to generate script, used in their script code fields, rather like templating the code. |
| 17:28.57 | Deaod | also, the editor apparently doesnt know about arrayref |
| 17:28.57 | JademusSreg | mille, yes, I concur. |
| 17:29.53 | A1win | hmm, maybe the EMP secondary could be just a differenr colored projectile that does a lot less damage, has larger aoe, and jams thrusters for a couple of seconds (not completely though) |
| 17:30.00 | A1win | *different |
| 17:32.14 | JademusSreg | brb |
| 17:37.18 | kingTD | Zolden what a disappointment and flaw... Ghost to Reaper and reaper sucks balllllls |
| 17:37.22 | kingTD | no damange increase |
| 17:37.33 | kingTD | damage from 200 to 20 |
| 17:37.44 | kingTD | attack speed. 2.7 to 2.2 |
| 17:38.54 | kingTD | or it just displays incorrect weapon |
| 17:41.27 | kingTD | Zolden when enemy attacks my towers they flee |
| 17:41.42 | kingTD | while they are stationary where before waitting for wave |
| 17:47.10 | JademusSreg | Stimulating article: http://shoryuken.com/2012/08/21/thinking-about-design-options-as-the-greatest-resource/ |
| 17:47.19 | kingTD | game is so imbalanced because of those random resource placement. Since every builder have other speciality is just imba imba imba\ |
| 17:49.05 | Zolden | kingTD does it matter when you wnat to sell your dude? sell it in battle, who cares |
| 17:49.27 | kingTD | imagine the misclick! |
| 17:49.32 | Zolden | kingTD reaper > ghost because it has like 20 attacks |
| 17:50.29 | Zolden | kingTD i'll think about random resources after all other sutff is implemented... but good players somehow win no matter what they have at start |
| 17:50.58 | kingTD | well it depends of what they pick |
| 17:51.15 | kingTD | and when you have one teammate doing shit in progress wise.. |
| 17:51.21 | kingTD | still |
| 17:51.23 | Zolden | i suspect that builder doesn't matter too |
| 17:51.36 | kingTD | no real tank units for ranged detected |
| 17:51.50 | Zolden | mech are op tanks |
| 17:51.58 | Zolden | gonna nerf em |
| 17:52.20 | Zolden | Serashin look like a strong guy, play with him in one team |
| 17:52.48 | kingTD | i had no oil for those fuckers |
| 17:52.55 | kingTD | 4 iron mines |
| 17:53.03 | Bommes | Jade, did you follow the discussion that went on a couple of weeks ago about the unit control behavior of units (flying units in particular) in SC2 vs. BW? |
| 17:53.05 | Serashin | i dont play in teams never ever Zolden ^^ |
| 17:53.25 | kingTD | and when started after 10-15 waves to expand had only 3 basic res, iron food mana |
| 17:54.15 | Bommes | that was basically the same discussion imo about how much easier it was to control flying units in BW and get more use out of them without them stumbling all over the place, which in return gave a lot more options and just felt better to control compared to sc2 |
| 17:54.45 | JademusSreg | Twod, could make a stronger argument by modeling the possibility space. If you can show that it's possible to begin in an unwinnable configuration, a change would need to be made. =D |
| 17:55.13 | JademusSreg | Bom, I remember the silly person's post on reddit. |
| 17:55.50 | JademusSreg | (I didn't watch the video, though.) |
| 17:55.51 | Bommes | ^^ |
| 17:56.09 | *** join/#sc2mapster Bounty (45f8f26f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.248.242.111) |
| 17:56.26 | JademusSreg | But the highest comment on that reddit topic was spectacularly uninformed, haha. |
| 17:57.15 | Bommes | I also saw an interview with Mike Morhaime a while ago where he said how they went into the whole SC:BW design from the perspective of just giving the players a ton of options and the game will eventually balance itself more or less |
| 17:58.09 | Bommes | dunno if it's true or not, but they definitely went into the SC2 game design with a bit more scared attitude and didn't want to mess it up which gives the whole game less depth than BW from a design perspective imo |
| 17:58.13 | Bommes | maybe it's just perception |
| 17:58.43 | Stewox | oh the perception deception |
| 17:59.48 | Bounty | pew |
| 18:01.07 | JademusSreg | Hm, I don't think that's a complete description. Blizzard design is characterized by balancing to promote the viability of compositional variation, which is to say ensure that the metagame isn't static, that players have options that are not logically precluded by the game state, which in turn depends on the qualitative diversity of unit options. =D |
| 18:02.06 | Stewox | Every time I look at your nickname Bommes, I think about this: http://tinyurl.com/oppfd3r |
| 18:02.58 | Bommes | In SC2 I would agree to that statement, I don't think that approach is necessarily true for how they approached balance in SC:BW |
| 18:02.58 | Stewox | the way I see it |
| 18:03.02 | JademusSreg | In other words, Blizz intends for there to never be a useless unit (constrast with C&C designs, haha), and that contributes to balancing against metagame stasis. |
| 18:03.30 | JademusSreg | Hi thar Bounty. |
| 18:03.37 | Bounty | Howdy |
| 18:03.38 | Bommes | I mean they kind of balanced everything to promote different compositional variations but in the end the community more or less balanced the game by using different maps and there was just a ton of stuff to discover in terms of strategy |
| 18:03.39 | JademusSreg | surreptitiously launches photoshop. |
| 18:04.16 | Stewox | I think they're sometimes manipulating the balance into a design decision |
| 18:04.34 | Stewox | because, if they want to buff DTs they could have did it a long time ago |
| 18:04.38 | Stewox | and nerf something else |
| 18:05.00 | Stewox | but they just seem to have a preconditioned status of DTs having no upgrades |
| 18:05.01 | Bommes | of course they also balanced it to a degree that there is not one clearly overpowered unit without disadvantages, so the statement is true in some way |
| 18:05.17 | Stewox | or that, some buffs are there already |
| 18:05.59 | Stewox | I don't think there's too much clutter in this game to be worried about the amount of upgrades, just feels like the Dark Shrine is a useless structure |
| 18:06.26 | Stewox | but who's got the image in mind what the game should be |
| 18:06.33 | Stewox | where's the goal |
| 18:06.58 | Stewox | that's the point, there is no goal, the balancing thing can swing the game into whatever the balance manipulates it into |
| 18:07.22 | Bommes | Jade, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEs-aA0eZ2Q that's the interview I was talking about |
| 18:07.48 | Stewox | there seem to be a few written in stone points around which they're balancing, like the core units and their abilities and power , now they're ballancing the new ones around them |
| 18:07.51 | Bommes | interestingly enough he also mentions that they realized that you could balance by giving a variety of options through magic, just like the shoryuken article takes that as the hook :D |
| 18:09.15 | Stewox | i think it will need another expansion and 2 years of balance before it reaches BW quality |
| 18:09.28 | Stewox | amI right ? |
| 18:09.55 | Bommes | depends on which direction they go, it might never reach bw quality |
| 18:10.04 | Bommes | or maybe for some ppl it supercedes bw quality since that is pretty subjective |
| 18:11.12 | Bommes | in the end it's an entertainment product and the only purpose is to create enjoyment, I think BW > SC2 as a statement is controversial enough to not take it for granted right now. |
| 18:12.31 | Bommes | and it's hard to measure. |
| 18:14.10 | kingTD | youtube have fixed the comment section that some major channels i see enabled it |
| 18:14.12 | kingTD | ?!?!?! |
| 18:15.07 | kingTD | anyone tried RPG on NA server featured by blizz? |
| 18:17.22 | duckies | corruption rpg? |
| 18:17.47 | duckies | tried it ~2 years ago when it was first published, felt a bit meh :/ |
| 18:18.21 | duckies | tho some terrain parts are definitely nice |
| 18:19.58 | Ahli | Zolden, I think I just send a queen 24 mana instead of 35 |
| 18:21.47 | JademusSreg | Thanks Bom, I'll take a look. |
| 18:31.47 | Bommes | my original statement was kind of false in terms of that the game balances itself, that was bad phrasing |
| 18:36.08 | JademusSreg | Quite alright, Bom. I've observed that you tend to bring the conversation around, toward a compromise between positions and undermine your initial thesis, ending with a polite acknowledgement of the value of other positions without having gone anywhere. It demonstrates, among other traits, consideration. =D |
| 18:36.29 | Serashin | Ahli , if that was possible . Im sure one of your allys left while the pick screen was active |
| 18:36.34 | Serashin | Had that already too |
| 18:36.44 | Serashin | its like his ressources are invisible split into players banks |
| 18:38.37 | JademusSreg | It also demonstrates you "think aloud", conversationally, and that you can carry an entire conversation by yourself. |
| 18:38.40 | JademusSreg | brb |
| 18:43.38 | *** join/#sc2mapster ArcanePariah (~ArcanePar@99-8-167-11.lightspeed.futnca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 18:45.59 | Ahli | zolden, what happens after the levels? my game just finished it |
| 18:49.21 | JademusSreg | Oh, Ahli, in case you missed it, you dealt over 4 billion damage over a 40 minute timeframe. |
| 18:49.47 | Ahli | I know I'm awesome |
| 18:49.52 | JademusSreg | =D |
| 18:50.24 | Kueken | why not divide all numbers by 10 million or something? xD |
| 18:50.54 | Kueken | way easier to deal with 3-4 digits |
| 18:51.17 | JademusSreg | Haha, since the wizard's warp bolt dealt splash, even the small amount per hit added up to an enormous value. |
| 18:51.40 | Kueken | yeah, didn't quite get the context |
| 18:51.42 | Ahli | in the end it put like 10 turrets that didn't do anything around the center structure |
| 18:51.48 | Kueken | but 40 billion sounds much |
| 18:51.49 | Ahli | in multiple patches |
| 18:51.53 | JademusSreg | Yeah, WIP. =D |
| 18:52.06 | JademusSreg | 4 billion. |
| 18:52.08 | Ahli | and the enemies repairing that thing didn't see like it was doing something ^^ |
| 18:52.37 | JademusSreg | Yeah, that phase is very much incomplete. |
| 18:52.50 | JademusSreg | But the first phase, woo, so much death. |
| 18:54.09 | Bommes | Jade, I don't think of what I say as positions, I'm always happy to change my mind on something if another position makes sense. Usually I just struggle to choose the right words for what I actually want to express in the time that I'm willing to spend chatting here, which of course leaves me vulnerable to counterpositions if they jump on the exact words I said. |
| 18:54.15 | kingTD | wtf that retard... placed like 4 cont yard that cost 200g then upgraded for 100g and then all of the team could get the boss invadors to kill. Zolden |
| 18:54.31 | JademusSreg | Haha |
| 18:56.12 | Bommes | but I don't mind it that much, because I'm not really fixed on my position. |
| 18:56.47 | JademusSreg | =D |
| 18:56.48 | Bommes | and it's always a pleasure to get you to talk, which is why I like to keep the conversation running :D |
| 18:57.39 | JademusSreg | Ah. Understandable. |
| 18:59.21 | JademusSreg | And I appreciate such a mental flexability. I guess it's rhetorical play, playerA makes an assertion, playerB attempts to subvert it. |
| 19:01.24 | *** join/#sc2mapster G0A (~hookah604@91.83.182.24.pool.invitel.hu) |
| 19:05.09 | JademusSreg | This could only mean Bom is Rodrigo in disguise, and he tricks us into playing Debates. =D |
| 19:07.04 | ArcanePariah | *Yawwwnn* Good morning/afternoon/evening |
| 19:07.22 | JademusSreg | Hallo Arc. |
| 19:07.59 | Bommes | obviously I'm just preparing everyone here for the inevitability of seeing a presidential candidate rise out of this channel |
| 19:08.25 | ArcanePariah | I'm going to do that label thingy you spoke of, but I going to do ammo later since I'm not up for that massive of a rework :P, going to stick with other gui elements first |
| 19:08.33 | Bommes | dunno who rodrigo is though |
| 19:08.38 | JademusSreg | Haha |
| 19:09.01 | ArcanePariah | Since charges and linking them together can be... interesting, from my past experience |
| 19:09.03 | JademusSreg | Hmmmmmm. |
| 19:09.19 | JademusSreg | I need to retest the frame element support list. |
| 19:09.28 | JademusSreg | Or better yet, I need to get someone else to do it. |
| 19:09.33 | A1win | I still need a name for my map .____. |
| 19:09.36 | ArcanePariah | Not it :D |
| 19:10.03 | JademusSreg | I've not updated it in a few patches (not many content patches since then, fortunately). |
| 19:10.15 | JademusSreg | A1, a name with what flavor? |
| 19:10.18 | A1win | Complete Disregard of Launching Hazardous Payloads into Space |
| 19:10.21 | ArcanePariah | Also, if you want to better understand what I'm trying to do/work with, simply play NotD, and understand the gui elements |
| 19:10.35 | A1win | I don't know D: |
| 19:10.39 | ArcanePariah | If you want, we can hop on b.net so I can show you, works best in multiplayer |
| 19:11.09 | A1win | like... Laserstorm, or Pew! or Spaaace! but better :X |
| 19:11.29 | ArcanePariah | To be clear, I am not designing anything, I am simply attempting to re implement existing design more efficiently |
| 19:11.42 | A1win | Megapew |
| 19:12.15 | JademusSreg | Hm, my time is limited atm. Or more accurately, the time I'm available is undefined. So I'm currently focused on my own stuff. =D |
| 19:12.25 | JademusSreg | But tomorrow should be more available. |
| 19:12.40 | ArcanePariah | Ya know... how about... Asteroids: The next generation :P |
| 19:12.47 | ArcanePariah | (Cheesy as all hell i know) |
| 19:12.50 | A1win | ;> |
| 19:12.52 | JademusSreg | Asstroids. |
| 19:13.08 | A1win | massteroids |
| 19:13.20 | JademusSreg | asslesschapstroids. |
| 19:14.00 | Bommes | Asstroids exist already, also known as Hemorrhoids |
| 19:14.01 | ArcanePariah | A1win, your map reminds me a ton of the game Escape Velocity (on the Mac, pre OS X), it was a space RPG of sorts, and the systems were laid out like your map and had similar combat |
| 19:14.23 | A1win | hmm haven't heard of that one |
| 19:14.36 | A1win | coincidentally was also considering Escape Velocity at some point :P |
| 19:14.42 | ArcanePariah | It was relatively niche, since it was on pre OS X macs |
| 19:14.50 | ArcanePariah | made by Ambrosia software |
| 19:15.35 | ArcanePariah | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_Velocity_%28video_game%29 |
| 19:15.39 | ArcanePariah | It had trading as well |
| 19:15.46 | A1win | looking at some video |
| 19:16.05 | A1win | oh god these sound effects |
| 19:16.43 | A1win | mm doesn't look very special ;p |
| 19:16.56 | ArcanePariah | I mainly played the 2nd game, Escape Velocity: Override |
| 19:17.16 | ArcanePariah | Well... considering it was released 15 years ago :P |
| 19:17.39 | A1win | hehe |
| 19:18.06 | A1win | this is where most of my influence comes from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7WUvPCg-ic |
| 19:18.43 | A1win | that one's from 1999 |
| 19:20.20 | ArcanePariah | Interesting |
| 19:21.41 | A1win | there's also a sequel but not really successful, hadn't evolved enough to meet modern standards |
| 19:21.55 | A1win | http://www.wings2.net/ |
| 19:22.23 | A1win | basically just has better graphics and online play |
| 19:23.20 | JademusSreg | wonders what the @ token might be used for in galaxy. |
| 19:23.52 | JademusSreg | Oh, nevermind. |
| 19:24.33 | A1win | there were a lot of finnish cave flyer games in the late 90s, that one's the best of them |
| 19:25.10 | JademusSreg | The only mystery operator looks to be a structure dereference operator, which may have been enabled for pointer shit. |
| 19:40.31 | mille25 | there is a @ token? :D |
| 19:40.52 | JademusSreg | Hm, I don't think so. I misread one of my earlier pastes. |
| 19:41.15 | JademusSreg | There's -> operator, though. |
| 19:41.50 | mille25 | whats that used for? |
| 19:42.26 | JademusSreg | Well, it's a structure dereference operator. |
| 19:42.46 | mille25 | wtf |
| 19:42.56 | Dustin | This pathing display crap has been a nightmare lol |
| 19:42.57 | JademusSreg | Or it is in C/C++, but not applicable in script, since structs can't be pointers. |
| 19:43.00 | Dustin | But I think I got it figured out |
| 19:43.30 | mille25 | isnt a structref technically a pointer? |
| 19:44.06 | JademusSreg | structs and structrefs both use the same field access operator token, though. |
| 19:44.22 | Deaod | a reference is not a pointer |
| 19:44.34 | mille25 | well, internally it is nothing else than a pointer. |
| 19:44.38 | mille25 | its just syntax. |
| 19:45.16 | JademusSreg | Can't perform pointer arithmetic, it's immutable in pretty much every implementation of which I am away. |
| 19:45.19 | JademusSreg | *aware |
| 19:45.21 | Deaod | references in C++ are also guaranteed to not be null i think. |
| 19:45.33 | mille25 | correct |
| 19:45.45 | mille25 | thats why const refs are often used as parameters to avoid the null check. |
| 19:46.07 | mille25 | also syntax is easier because you can use . instead of -> |
| 19:46.15 | Deaod | sure, its probably a pointer internally, but what matters is how you use it. |
| 19:46.36 | mille25 | thats why i said "technically" :D |
| 19:47.04 | JademusSreg | Or to put it differently, a pointer -points- to something and modifying it modifies to what it points. A reference -refers- to something, necessarily something specific. |
| 19:47.15 | mille25 | but still it doesnt really explain the -> operator in galaxy |
| 19:47.44 | mille25 | anyways, need to get some food really quickly. |
| 19:48.54 | JademusSreg | Right, could be legacy. Throws a specific error during syntax checking, so if it can be misused, it could (but not neccessarily will) have a use. |
| 19:50.24 | Dustin | High speed units completely rape the pathing engine |
| 19:50.32 | JademusSreg | Yep. |
| 19:50.44 | Dustin | Makes my idea so fucking ahrd |
| 19:50.59 | Dustin | Causem y units have to be slow enough to follow the pathing, but be fast enough to not take forever to rebuild the path |
| 19:52.16 | JademusSreg | Er, wat units? =D |
| 19:52.43 | Dustin | Have to use units for Pathing Display |
| 19:52.52 | Dustin | so i have to make nodes of units linked together |
| 19:53.03 | Dustin | That run the path and stop at specific lengths |
| 19:53.15 | Dustin | Then the pathing displays are chained together for each unit |
| 19:53.41 | Dustin | But with a high speed on the unit to run the path, it completely bybasses walls and shit and fucked up the pathing display |
| 19:53.53 | JademusSreg | Er, shouldn't paths display for units which are unable to move but retain order queue? |
| 19:54.26 | Dustin | I have to get the units in a line throughout the path |
| 19:54.36 | Dustin | So I have to make it actually move then check it's Pathing Cost |
| 19:54.41 | JademusSreg | Same way that waypoints tend to be for some stun/snaes. |
| 19:54.42 | Dustin | and order it to stop |
| 19:54.44 | JademusSreg | *snares |
| 19:55.44 | Bounty | grrr |
| 19:55.49 | JademusSreg | Ya know, they don't actually need to move to display the path, since it displays for other orders. |
| 19:55.54 | Bounty | how the heck can I divide this damn circle up JademusSreg |
| 19:55.59 | Bounty | you said something about alpha mask? |
| 19:56.06 | JademusSreg | Yep. |
| 19:56.07 | Dustin | Jade, you'ren ot understanding what im saying :P |
| 19:56.18 | Dustin | You said something about move orders yesterday |
| 19:56.22 | Dustin | That has nothing to do with it |
| 19:56.27 | Bounty | What is that Jade? I am not familiar with that. |
| 19:56.36 | JademusSreg | Limited information, haha. |
| 19:56.43 | Bounty | I take it that it allows me to alter the shape of the button? |
| 19:57.02 | JademusSreg | Alpha mask dialog control property. |
| 19:57.19 | Dustin | I think this speed will work |
| 19:57.27 | Dustin | best it's gonna get I think |
| 19:57.49 | Bounty | Ok, so how would I use this to get my goal |
| 19:57.50 | Bounty | lol |
| 19:57.52 | Bounty | ;) |
| 19:58.02 | ArcanePariah | Uggh... Jade, why must the UI XML be so inflexible? :P |
| 19:58.50 | ArcanePariah | More to my point, why is that (barring storing them in variables) there is no real way to access the elements within a given frame? |
| 19:59.25 | JademusSreg | Dialog control model/portrait + alpha mask image that cuts it into a wedge. Or however you'd like to do it, masked button, or masked model, masked unit, but it lets you visually slice it how you want. |
| 19:59.43 | JademusSreg | Asynchronous. =D |
| 19:59.46 | Bounty | So I can slice a button? |
| 19:59.56 | JademusSreg | Mask it, yeah. |
| 20:00.13 | Bounty | ugh |
| 20:00.17 | Bounty | I get it, but I don't |
| 20:00.19 | Bounty | haha |
| 20:01.00 | JademusSreg | Arc, since interface shit can respond locally to a user, its state is asynchronous. |
| 20:01.46 | ArcanePariah | So, in short, without variable references, the game has no real way to determine valid or invalid ui elements |
| 20:01.53 | ArcanePariah | Or where they are |
| 20:03.03 | kingTD | Zolden still eating? |
| 20:03.09 | ArcanePariah | Swell.... It's just that I can define many things in the UI XML and then use those as templates but if I use the parent frame as a template, I lose granularity and if I use the children frames as templates.... not much different then just straight using dialog controls |
| 20:04.24 | ArcanePariah | For example, I want to create an image, another image on top of it, and a button underneath them all, with the button tooltip. The button part works fine, but since the 2nd image is determined at runtime, I can't use the Dialog Item Set Image since it will set the image for both image elements |
| 20:04.38 | ArcanePariah | See my issue? |
| 20:04.42 | JademusSreg | Er, the properties of a dialog control born from a frame cannot return the value because asynchronous can't just output to synchronous; the galaxy vm and shit is synchronous, so until the property is set from a synchronous source, it returns an empty value. |
| 20:05.25 | Bounty | JademusSreg, I set an alpha mask on a button and it slices it but you can still interact with the covered spots |
| 20:05.36 | JademusSreg | Bounty, unfortunate. |
| 20:05.55 | Bounty | aka screwed? |
| 20:06.14 | JademusSreg | Custom models =D |
| 20:06.29 | Bounty | can you change the shape of a button at all? |
| 20:06.37 | JademusSreg | Arc, you could just perform multiple hookups. |
| 20:06.44 | JademusSreg | Oh template. |
| 20:07.46 | JademusSreg | Arc, why an image on top and underneath a button? |
| 20:07.55 | ArcanePariah | Yeah, I guess even using templates of the child element, I still gain on execution time, since the Create Dialog (Image) is simply a function call that is handling stuff behind the scenes |
| 20:08.42 | ArcanePariah | Well, I have a button that can be interacted with, it will be transparent, and then an image on top to serve as a border and then a player specific image on top of that (an icon representing their class) |
| 20:09.01 | ArcanePariah | So Button -> Image -> Image |
| 20:09.03 | Zolden | Ahli i haven't finished the levels, there will be 5 more |
| 20:09.05 | JademusSreg | Er, did you look at the elements supported by Button? |
| 20:09.19 | ArcanePariah | No, not really |
| 20:09.22 | JademusSreg | Haha. |
| 20:09.30 | Zolden | just need triceron to show up to wangle models |
| 20:09.45 | JademusSreg | http://www.sc2mapster.com/paste/7445/ line 466 |
| 20:10.00 | Zolden | kingTD just finished, coming |
| 20:10.06 | kingTD | too late |
| 20:10.14 | Zolden | ;/ |
| 20:10.18 | kingTD | already playing with no farms and a lot of subdocks |
| 20:10.21 | Zolden | two late |
| 20:10.31 | Zolden | yea, go go subdolak! |
| 20:10.44 | ArcanePariah | Ok, so a button can have an image set |
| 20:10.54 | JademusSreg | And hover image. |
| 20:11.02 | ArcanePariah | I don't want hover |
| 20:11.08 | JademusSreg | And those images are formatted based on the number of states. |
| 20:11.17 | ArcanePariah | So I want 1 state and set normal image |
| 20:11.28 | Bounty | wow you can't even fucking rotate a button? |
| 20:11.29 | Bounty | lol |
| 20:11.35 | JademusSreg | You'll need to set hover and normal to the same. |
| 20:11.52 | JademusSreg | Also, notice it supports Text, which means that can be used to display an image, easy. |
| 20:12.13 | mille25 | Bounty: as far as i know just images can be rotated. |
| 20:12.18 | JademusSreg | Yup. |
| 20:12.52 | Bounty | Can you make an image make it so it covers a portion of a button making that section unclickable? |
| 20:13.11 | JademusSreg | Bounty, define the HitTestFrame. |
| 20:13.15 | mille25 | https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1401938_566614743409861_1549434393_o.jpg |
| 20:13.21 | mille25 | finally started to make use of right click. |
| 20:13.37 | JademusSreg | Make it a frame with lots of frames, perhaps it will let you define shapes like that. |
| 20:13.51 | Bounty | meh |
| 20:13.58 | Bounty | I think I'm better off just using dummy units as buttons |
| 20:14.08 | Bounty | balls |
| 20:14.13 | JademusSreg | Yeah, enough frames should support shapes to arbitrary precision, cool. |
| 20:15.15 | JademusSreg | Gonna depart in a bit; any other questions? =D |
| 20:15.25 | mille25 | Bounty: did you try to set accepted mouse buttons on the image? maybe that will block the click to go through the image, but cant tell. |
| 20:15.28 | Bounty | Wheres my 5 bucks? |
| 20:15.53 | Bounty | Did not try that mille, I think I'm just better off making dummy units act as UI |
| 20:16.06 | Bounty | Lots of options for shapes in that way |
| 20:17.19 | JademusSreg | Units incur waaaaay more overhead. |
| 20:17.44 | JademusSreg | But you'll use them anyway because that's just how you are, no use arguing, haha. |
| 20:18.19 | mille25 | how do you even create ui using units? can they act as images from the top? |
| 20:18.53 | JademusSreg | As Dorothy Parker said, "You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think." |
| 20:19.01 | JademusSreg | bbl |
| 20:19.53 | Kueken | you cannot? o_0 |
| 20:20.04 | Kueken | I was living a lie my whole life |
| 20:20.13 | Bounty | You just make them highlightable and clickable |
| 20:20.28 | Bounty | and instead of the event being dialog you make it when they are clicked |
| 20:20.32 | Bounty | You can do some cool stuff with it. |
| 20:20.43 | mille25 | but how do they act as UI? |
| 20:20.57 | mille25 | do their actors act as dialogs? or is there a dialog above them? |
| 20:21.05 | Bounty | No, they're just units |
| 20:21.33 | Bounty | Like you just make an actual object the button instead of making a button that does something to the object |
| 20:21.37 | Bounty | make sense? |
| 20:22.03 | mille25 | so you are not talking about simulating actual UI with units, but just replacing the UI with ingame selection? |
| 20:22.21 | Bounty | Yeah, but you can use certain models to make it look like 3D UI |
| 20:22.31 | Bounty | Depends on what you're doing really |
| 20:24.42 | A1win | an obvious minimap improvement http://a1win.pp.fi/ss/sc2/ph/a97/SC2%202013-11-24%2022-23-44-37.jpg |
| 20:26.40 | Dustin | Well this works, kinda janky, but at least the pathing display doesnt end abrubtly |
| 20:33.36 | mille25 | looks like a very interresting project, A1win |
| 20:35.25 | A1win | it is :x almost ready for release too, just need new models and a few missing features |
| 20:36.40 | A1win | and a name ;( |
| 20:40.37 | A1win | still need a better way to display those pink energy balls/bar/whatever, they are only related to the pink bordered action bar buttons so could be nice to tie them to those |
| 20:43.02 | A1win | though then the other half of the action bar would look unbalanced |
| 20:44.54 | A1win | one possibility is to put shields and hull on top of each other inside the same frame, and put energy bar where hull bar is now |
| 20:45.21 | A1win | but then the shield/hull bar frame can't react to the status as nicely as it does now D: |
| 20:52.54 | A1win | mmh writing down missing features, still quite a long list ;p |
| 20:56.47 | mille25 | i know that problem :P |
| 21:57.39 | kingTD | Zolden the remakerer |
| 21:58.23 | G0A | yay I have the top played map on SEA :) |
| 21:59.35 | A1win | do all top played maps use some kind of an achievement/leveling system as their hook? |
| 22:00.05 | G0A | nope |
| 22:00.17 | G0A | crappy tug of war maps mostly dont have |
| 22:00.21 | A1win | :x |
| 22:01.26 | Ahli | g0a, did you play it yourself, twice? :D |
| 22:01.35 | G0A | though I guess the "leveling system" in that crappy lottery map is the main reason why its top played... |
| 22:02.07 | G0A | Ahli nope and its my most complex map:) it even has 6 rating and 3 reviews:D |
| 22:02.20 | Ahli | :o |
| 22:03.06 | kingTD | there are like 5 maps on those otehr servers |
| 22:08.18 | G0A | it must be very family like environment. |
| 22:10.51 | Ahli | http://www.twitch.tv/redbullesports finals starting soon |
| 22:11.58 | kingTD | bed time starts now |
| 22:31.38 | G0A | ehh finals are pvp |
| 22:38.03 | G0A | omg cannon rush |
| 22:39.06 | JademusSreg | Hah. |
| 22:40.41 | A1win | that frame on lava timer is huuuuge |
| 22:41.32 | JademusSreg | Barbaric. |
| 22:42.29 | Ahli | artosis pylon :D |
| 22:42.31 | Serashin | ye the map is so lackluster why make it so little |
| 22:42.37 | G0A | yeah |
| 22:42.41 | G0A | artosis pylons |
| 22:42.50 | Serashin | sc2 can shine so much with lots of different features added by maps |
| 22:42.58 | Serashin | but blizzard stubburn ;; |
| 22:43.00 | Kueken | dual artosis pylon :D |
| 22:43.04 | Kueken | nice one |
| 22:43.28 | Kueken | wut |
| 22:43.30 | Kueken | lava? |
| 22:43.42 | Kueken | is that an official melee map? |
| 22:43.49 | A1win | nah |
| 22:44.13 | Serashin | sadly not |
| 22:44.47 | Ahli | it has triggers.... it can't be :D |
| 22:45.00 | Serashin | problably when command and conuqer generals 2 steps up with creativity for multiplayer . sc2 will have dust grass flying arround |
| 22:45.02 | G0A | hmm |
| 22:45.12 | JademusSreg | Hm, nope. |
| 22:45.13 | G0A | how is lava actually done? |
| 22:45.21 | JademusSreg | Lava is a water tile, usually. |
| 22:45.23 | Kueken | I thought they canceled the next C&C game? |
| 22:45.28 | G0A | ahh water |
| 22:45.34 | JademusSreg | Though it can be done thorugh other means. =D |
| 22:45.40 | Serashin | nah its closed beta already ^^ |
| 22:45.44 | JademusSreg | *through |
| 22:45.50 | Serashin | sec i give link |
| 22:45.51 | Ahli | lava is water... the trigger stuff and the map is actually posted on sc2mapster as I helped the author fixing his triggers |
| 22:46.29 | Serashin | http://www.commandandconquer.com/en/beta-registration |
| 22:46.50 | Serashin | all i know from C&c alpha videos that all massed infantery |
| 22:46.52 | Serashin | cause op |
| 22:46.52 | Serashin | :P |
| 22:46.55 | JademusSreg | C&C games have historically had shit gameplay, small mod communities. Doubt that's about to change under EA's direction. |
| 22:47.09 | Ahli | the new c&c is frozen afaIk? |
| 22:47.20 | Serashin | ye my hopes are split on that . but better then sc2 were u dont have anything neutral like outposts . or something conquerable |
| 22:47.24 | Kueken | maybe it wasn't generals... |
| 22:47.26 | Serashin | they took a example on sc2 terrain |
| 22:47.40 | Serashin | generals 2 = release next year |
| 22:47.52 | Serashin | biggest issue even on generals 1 |
| 22:47.55 | Serashin | wich was most popular |
| 22:47.58 | Kueken | afaik the next C&C tiberium saga game was canceled |
| 22:47.58 | Serashin | was always terrain |
| 22:48.04 | Serashin | ye ofc |
| 22:48.05 | Serashin | lol |
| 22:48.06 | Kueken | generals is a different thing |
| 22:48.08 | Serashin | that tiberum twilight |
| 22:48.11 | Serashin | was biggest fail ever |
| 22:48.14 | Serashin | no base building |
| 22:48.21 | Ahli | the game that they called "command & concquer" |
| 22:48.27 | Ahli | but it's the game that was linked |
| 22:48.34 | Ahli | just check the news post |
| 22:48.36 | Ahli | on it |
| 22:49.03 | JademusSreg | C&C+Moba = twilight |
| 22:49.28 | Serashin | i was playing alpha of twlight |
| 22:49.31 | Serashin | never touched again |
| 22:49.42 | Serashin | for me red alert 2 + generals = awesome |
| 22:49.44 | G0A | I dont even know what is that |
| 22:49.45 | Serashin | thats why split hopes |
| 22:50.29 | G0A | for me Cossacks 1.35 > rest of rts games |
| 22:51.32 | Serashin | played cossacks too . but not to much played it like 5 years to late :D |
| 22:51.40 | Serashin | so no players ;; |
| 22:52.40 | G0A | I think its still played by like 1k people |
| 22:52.54 | G0A | but yeah it never had many players |
| 22:52.59 | Serashin | dno i played it with friends . never got into it |
| 22:53.25 | G0A | I was close being pro.) |
| 22:53.37 | G0A | or at least in millions setup |
| 22:54.06 | Serashin | all i know from other rts that AOS and BW still has tournaments |
| 22:54.10 | Serashin | never heard of cossack ones |
| 22:54.26 | G0A | it has nice beauty to control 2000 unit vs 2000 unit battles. |
| 22:54.58 | Serashin | dno the masses not so important the flexibillity for me more . and multiple cost effitient flowing stuff |
| 22:55.05 | Serashin | sc2 is jsut sit base |
| 22:56.14 | G0A | voidray powa |
| 22:58.18 | *** part/#sc2mapster G0A (~hookah604@91.83.182.24.pool.invitel.hu) |
| 23:02.00 | A1win | haha, steal gas -> steal minerals -> steal more gas |
| 23:14.46 | A1win | awkward close-up screams from the crowd |
| 23:52.14 | *** join/#sc2mapster Tolkfan (~Thunderbi@host-89-230-244-167.nowydwor.mm.pl) |
