IRC log for #sc2mapster on 20120818

`00:20.26`	`*** join/#sc2mapster nM\|Bibendus (~Bibendus@ip-80-249-36-63.static.adsl.cheapnet.it)`
`00:26.46`	`Iiris_Frost`	`what file types does SC2 support? or is it only dds?`
`00:28.59`	`Exaken`	`yup`
`00:31.08`	`Iiris_Frost`	`damn`
`00:31.25`	`Iiris_Frost`	`meaning i need Photoshop :(`
`00:31.32`	`Iiris_Frost`	`which i can't afford`
`00:33.10`	`Exaken`	`or gimp with the dds plugin`
`00:33.49`	`Exaken`	`or search "Aorta" on mapster, it's a converter`
`00:35.03`	`Iiris_Frost`	`I hate gimp`
`00:35.46`	`Iiris_Frost`	`I already know photoshop from school, i just can't afford $600 for a program`
`00:37.47`	`*** join/#sc2mapster tordy (627449b7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.116.73.183)`
`00:37.48`	`tordy`	`hello`
`00:39.56`	`Exaken`	`hi`
`00:48.20`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Parthon (~cheeeese@godsta.arach.net.au)`
`00:51.59`	`Xapti`	`what don't you like about GIMP? I wasn't a fan of it's default controls, but I think it's customizable`
`00:53.10`	`tordy`	`woOOOOOH`
`00:53.13`	`Iiris_Frost`	`biggest problem with gimp is each panel in a separate window instead of one single program window (like most programs)`
`00:53.15`	`tordy`	`they released it!`
`00:53.17`	`tordy`	`:o`
`00:53.19`	`tordy`	`:]`
`00:53.31`	`Iiris_Frost`	`released what?`
`00:53.43`	`Iiris_Frost`	`cookies?`
`00:55.50`	`tordy`	`zelda publicized his pokemon-like game`
`00:56.00`	`tordy`	`http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/resources/project-workplace/41336-starmon-a-pokemon-style-map/#posts`
`00:56.00`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Taintedwisp (adbc8ba2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.188.139.162)`
`00:56.08`	`Taintedwisp`	`This sucks...`
`00:56.08`	`tordy`	`zelda publicized his pokemon-style game`
`00:56.12`	`tordy`	`hello Taintedwisp`
`00:56.18`	`Taintedwisp`	`hey tardy`
`00:56.19`	`Taintedwisp`	`lol`
`00:56.25`	`Taintedwisp`	`tordy*`
`00:56.25`	`tordy`	`im tryin make a pokemon-style game myself`
`00:56.28`	`Taintedwisp`	`:P`
`00:56.29`	`tordy`	`but it's gonna be much diff`
`00:56.35`	`Iiris_Frost`	`lol`
`00:56.44`	`Taintedwisp`	`Is it going to be more similar to Sc1 pokemon game?`
`00:56.51`	`tordy`	`what's that like?`
`00:56.54`	`tordy`	`i dont even remember`
`00:57.00`	`tordy`	`doubt it tho`
`00:57.02`	`Taintedwisp`	`I forget]`
`00:57.05`	`Taintedwisp`	`lol`
`00:57.26`	`tordy`	`i mean the only main similarities to the original pokemon are the types of stats (HP/atk/def/spd, etc) and creature collection idea`
`00:57.38`	`tordy`	`but the battle system and world encounters will be diff`
`00:58.03`	`tordy`	`i dont want to make it too similar since these guys already making it`
`00:58.11`	`tordy`	`so i might as well go ahead with my idea`
`00:58.37`	`Taintedwisp`	`:D`
`00:58.38`	`Taintedwisp`	`thats good`
`00:59.08`	`tordy`	`ahhh man`
`00:59.13`	`tordy`	`they're using a global PP pool too`
`00:59.18`	`tordy`	`i myself am using that`
`00:59.29`	`tordy`	`in addition to charges which're reserved for super powerful moves`
`00:59.54`	`Taintedwisp`	`It doesnt matter...`
`01:00.03`	`Taintedwisp`	`Cause my Evolution frenzy will beat it...`
`01:00.04`	`Taintedwisp`	`any day`
`01:00.05`	`Taintedwisp`	`lawl`
`01:00.09`	`Taintedwisp`	`just not today`
`01:00.10`	`Taintedwisp`	`lawl`
`01:00.11`	`tordy`	`>:[`
`01:00.13`	`tordy`	`>:]`
`01:00.22`	`tordy`	`anyway i dont evenk now if the battle system can work`
`01:00.27`	`tordy`	`it's a lil experimental`
`01:00.28`	`Taintedwisp`	`actually I currently have an evolution system`
`01:00.32`	`tordy`	`prob gonna be unbalanced as heck`
`01:00.33`	`tordy`	`but whatever`
`01:00.34`	`Taintedwisp`	`that works and is fully tested`
`01:00.35`	`tordy`	`worth a try`
`01:01.37`	`Taintedwisp`	`How many pokemon do you have?`
`01:02.02`	`tordy`	`none`
`01:02.07`	`tordy`	`didnt even think about types of creatures yet`
`01:02.31`	`Taintedwisp`	`My map consist of 30 spawners, 30 units, 12 heroes, 12 Mercs, and around 32 upgrades... oh and 8 base defense buildings..`
`01:02.32`	`Taintedwisp`	`lawl`
`01:02.35`	`Taintedwisp`	`when its inished`
`01:02.38`	`tordy`	`too focused on battle system because that's most important`
`01:02.41`	`tordy`	`and most experimental`
`01:02.53`	`tordy`	`that'll what set it apart from other pokemon-style games`
`01:02.56`	`Taintedwisp`	`my evolution system works :P`
`01:03.00`	`tordy`	`>:(`
`01:03.41`	`Taintedwisp`	`you should also try to think up another pokemon Capture system, maybe actually make the player throw the pokeball like a spell`
`01:03.43`	`Taintedwisp`	`that would be cool`
`01:03.53`	`tordy`	`heh that's exactly what im doing`
`01:03.56`	`Taintedwisp`	`:P`
`01:03.56`	`tordy`	`the trainer is a spell caster`
`01:03.59`	`Taintedwisp`	`nice`
`01:04.05`	`tordy`	`with a bunch of spells he can use to support hsi creatures`
`01:04.08`	`tordy`	`he can also join in the fight`
`01:04.11`	`tordy`	`but he's kinda weak`
`01:04.14`	`tordy`	`and if he dies , it's game over`
`01:04.19`	`tordy`	`so only a last resort would u send him in`
`01:04.48`	`Taintedwisp`	`the question is....`
`01:04.58`	`Taintedwisp`	`will it beat Mini Chop Farms?`
`01:05.04`	`tordy`	`iunno what's mini chop farms`
`01:05.06`	`Taintedwisp`	`I know thats one hell of a target ..`
`01:05.07`	`Taintedwisp`	`lol`
`01:05.13`	`tordy`	`>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>::::::::::)))))))))))))))))))))))))))`
`01:05.15`	`Taintedwisp`	`an unpopular NA map`
`01:05.20`	`tordy`	`what's the gameplay like`
`01:05.23`	`Taintedwisp`	`That one day I should get online and promote`
`01:05.28`	`Taintedwisp`	`one sec tordy`
`01:05.29`	`Taintedwisp`	`its got decent gameplay`
`01:05.58`	`Taintedwisp`	`http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO2SicaEzRg&feature=relmfu`
`01:06.00`	`Taintedwisp`	`h:P`
`01:06.04`	`Taintedwisp`	`Cept Its SC2`
`01:06.04`	`Taintedwisp`	`kawk`
`01:06.23`	`Taintedwisp`	`THouh the music is the same`
`01:06.25`	`Taintedwisp`	`haha`
`01:06.45`	`*** part/#sc2mapster Blizz-Deletarius (d8940048@gateway/web/freenode/ip.216.148.0.72)`
`01:07.00`	`Taintedwisp`	`DELETERIUS!!!! WHYYY!!!!`
`01:07.02`	`Taintedwisp`	`lol`
`01:08.05`	`*** join/#sc2mapster tordy_ (627449b7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.116.73.183)`
`01:08.06`	`tordy_`	`hello`
`01:08.18`	`Taintedwisp`	`NOOO`
`01:08.27`	`Taintedwisp`	`Now there are two of you... WHY LORD WHY!!!!!`
`01:08.59`	`ckSynergy`	`lol`
`01:10.32`	`Taintedwisp`	`oh thank god`
`01:10.36`	`Taintedwisp`	`Now the world may have peace once again`
`01:10.47`	`tordy_`	`:O`
`01:10.49`	`Taintedwisp`	`Damn I thought the Rapture was here`
`01:10.51`	`Taintedwisp`	`:P`
`01:12.01`	`tordy_`	`6 primary stats`
`01:12.04`	`tordy_`	`and 6 secondary stats`
`01:12.16`	`tordy_`	`6 primary stats are the usual : HP, ATK, DEF, SATK, SDEF, SPD`
`01:12.25`	`tordy_`	`those 6 secondary stats are somethin i added`
`01:12.41`	`tordy_`	`and those do not grow with level`
`01:12.49`	`Taintedwisp`	`What about the greatest stat Tordy`
`01:12.53`	`Taintedwisp`	`TWIA`
`01:12.56`	`tordy_`	`use items or passives to increase them`
`01:12.58`	`Taintedwisp`	`:D`
`01:13.01`	`tordy_`	`>:(`
`01:13.12`	`tordy_`	`and the usual`
`01:13.13`	`Taintedwisp`	`TaintedWisp Is Awesome..`
`01:13.15`	`Taintedwisp`	`its a needed stat`
`01:13.16`	`tordy_`	`IVs and EVs i guess`
`01:13.18`	`Taintedwisp`	`lol`
`01:13.22`	`tordy_`	`but i'll rework them so they're a lil less grindy`
`01:13.24`	`Taintedwisp`	`What are IV and EVs?`
`01:13.37`	`tordy_`	`Individual Values and Effort values`
`01:13.45`	`Taintedwisp`	`riiiiiggggghhhhhtttt`
`01:13.46`	`Taintedwisp`	`lol`
`01:13.57`	`tordy_`	`IVs are "genetics", something that can't be changed in a creature`
`01:14.06`	`tordy_`	`EVs are stat bonuses you train the creature`
`01:14.14`	`tordy_`	`so......`
`01:14.22`	`tordy_`	`whatever you get the idea if you played pokemon`
`01:14.34`	`tordy_`	`i only played RB`
`01:14.44`	`tordy_`	`so i use Bulbapedia as a huge reference`
`01:14.51`	`tordy_`	`for any mechanics that look good`
`01:15.36`	`Taintedwisp`	`:P`
`01:17.58`	`tordy_`	`does TheAlmaity goto this irc`
`01:18.03`	`tordy_`	`Taintedwisp:`
`01:18.17`	`Taintedwisp`	`he was here earlier`
`01:18.23`	`Taintedwisp`	`Yeah`
`01:18.24`	`tordy_`	`what's his username`
`01:18.34`	`Taintedwisp`	`TheAlmaity`
`01:18.40`	`tordy_`	`well`
`01:19.20`	`Taintedwisp`	`hes rarely to never on at this time of the night`
`01:26.47`	`tordy_`	`>:[`
`01:40.41`	`ckSynergy`	`hey vailreth you on?`
`01:45.58`	`Vailreth`	`i am`
`01:48.28`	`Vailreth`	`ckSynergy what do you need`
`01:48.45`	`tordy_`	`i forgot`
`01:59.30`	`Bibendus`	`I like how people says "there are some bugs" in reviews without saying what bugs`
`02:00.05`	`Vailreth`	`we hold this bug to be self evident`
`02:00.25`	`Bibendus`	`no`
`02:00.26`	`Bibendus`	`:D`
`02:00.29`	`Bibendus`	`people reads beta`
`02:00.34`	`Bibendus`	`and thinks that everything is a bug`
`02:00.37`	`Bibendus`	`:D`
`02:01.08`	`Bibendus`	`my map is fucking polished`
`02:01.12`	`Bibendus`	`there are no bugs!!!!`
`02:01.18`	`Bibendus`	`stop saying there are bugs ashsufsduifhsduifhsidfhusd`
`02:01.26`	`Bibendus`	`ok now I can go to sleep`
`02:01.43`	`Vailreth`	`night or morning or what ever`
`02:01.47`	`Bibendus`	`xD`
`02:01.49`	`Bibendus`	`bye.`
`02:01.58`	`Bibendus`	`I think morning now :P`
`02:11.20`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Net_Creator (~Net_Creat@adsl-98-93-131-56.owb.bellsouth.net)`
`02:40.39`	`ckSynergy`	`oh snap you responded`
`02:41.04`	`ckSynergy`	`did you have any luck in your missile tests?`
`02:41.13`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Xapti (~quassel@S0106001fbc08a819.wp.shawcable.net)`
`02:44.11`	`Totservis`	`how can i save current camera configuration of the first player to be able to set it for the second one?`
`02:44.47`	`Totservis`	`so the second player can "watch by eyes of the first one"?`
`02:47.36`	`Totservis`	`is there a function which returns current camera from a player? =\`
`02:50.31`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Maish (627daae2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.125.170.226)`
`02:52.44`	`Maish`	`Hey, does anyone have any idea as to why one player's upgrade would enable things for both players?`
`02:53.16`	`ckSynergy`	`Tot: I dont think there is a way. If youre talking about ingame replay cameras, not possible.`
`02:53.23`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Stranger (~whois@184.175.14.185)`
`02:53.54`	`ckSynergy`	`if you want to do it while a game is running, you have to set the camera of player X to the camera of player Y, which is about 10 camera functions`
`02:54.04`	`ckSynergy`	`Maish: no idea`
`02:54.25`	`ckSynergy`	`unless both players are technically the same player`
`02:54.32`	`ckSynergy`	`how is your data/trigger run?`
`02:54.41`	`Maish`	`Basic upgrade from a unit`
`02:54.50`	`tordy_`	`what happeend`
`02:54.57`	`Maish`	`unit construction has a requirement attached`
`02:55.01`	`Maish`	`for having that upgrade`
`02:55.33`	`Maish`	`I dont know how they would be considered the same player`
`02:56.22`	`ckSynergy`	`Maish: Im saying is if both units belong to player X, but player Y and Z have control`
`02:57.44`	`Maish`	`Oh`
`02:57.45`	`Maish`	`wow`
`02:57.50`	`Maish`	`Thank you`
`02:57.57`	`ckSynergy`	`lol is that it?`
`02:57.59`	`Maish`	`the buildings do spawn neutral`
`02:58.06`	`Maish`	`and have to be taken over with an ability`
`02:58.08`	`ckSynergy`	`lemme guess, team shops?`
`02:58.13`	`Maish`	`no`
`02:58.25`	`Maish`	`it's a strategy game`
`02:58.31`	`Maish`	`where players have to control cities`
`02:58.38`	`ckSynergy`	`Do you actually change the owner, or do you just have them gain control?`
`02:58.44`	`Maish`	`just gain control`
`02:58.54`	`ckSynergy`	`ah yea, theres youre problem :P`
`02:58.58`	`Maish`	`it was based off of the mind control ability`
`02:59.09`	`ckSynergy`	`yea uhhhh`
`02:59.14`	`ckSynergy`	`that wont transfer ownership`
`02:59.27`	`Maish`	`So, how would you suggest I fix it?`
`02:59.42`	`ckSynergy`	`Hold on, I actually have a unit that transfers ownership`
`03:00.17`	`ckSynergy`	`I was/am pretty proud of it.`
`03:00.25`	`ckSynergy`	`It's a capturable xel'naga with a timer :P`
`03:01.31`	`Maish`	`cool`
`03:01.32`	`ckSynergy`	`ok, pm me. Ill guide you through a capturable buff`
`03:01.44`	`Maish`	`on sc2mapster?`
`03:02.45`	`ckSynergy`	`here`
`03:09.07`	`tordy_`	`hi`
`03:11.06`	`ckSynergy`	`hi`
`03:38.32`	`JademusSreg`	`Iiris == Frostwind, so yeah, Eiviyn correctly identified the whiner.`
`03:42.22`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Fate (55b34fcc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.179.79.204)`
`03:47.59`	`ckSynergy`	`hes been whining for days lol`
`03:48.14`	`ckSynergy`	`hey Jadmus, you have much experience with missile effects?`
`04:17.46`	`Taintedwisp`	`All you are Whiners... SPECIALLiAly VAILRETH!!!`
`04:17.51`	`Taintedwisp`	`lawl jk`
`04:19.20`	`Taintedwisp`	`its funny cause it beeped him`
`04:19.32`	`Taintedwisp`	`Vailreth, Vailreth, Vailreth`
`04:19.34`	`Taintedwisp`	`llol`
`04:21.48`	`Taintedwisp`	`What time is it in Germany I wonder`
`04:26.40`	`JademusSreg`	`I don't mod SC2 anymore.`
`04:27.03`	`JademusSreg`	`(I'm on freenode server to chat with other dev buddies.)`
`04:36.35`	`Taintedwisp`	`Jademus secretly mods.... but he wants to e a ninja about it... his next project is "Photon Planes" HE TOLD ME HIMSELF`
`04:36.45`	`Taintedwisp`	`Isnt that right JademusSreg`
`04:37.04`	`JademusSreg`	`Internet facts are more true than regular facts.`
`04:37.10`	`Taintedwisp`	`Yup...`
`04:37.13`	`Taintedwisp`	`you heard it here...`
`04:37.17`	`Taintedwisp`	`:P`
`04:37.28`	`Taintedwisp`	`Glad you are coming to atleast talk here agian though Jademus :P`
`04:37.37`	`JademusSreg`	`Yep.`
`04:37.38`	`JademusSreg`	`brb`
`04:38.28`	`Taintedwisp`	`DAMMIT I WANT My TRIGGERER TO COME ONLINE!!!!!!! lol. So that way we can talk a few minutes before I go to bed... He works when I sleep, and goes to sleep when I wake up... its weird`
`04:38.30`	`Taintedwisp`	`lawl`
`04:38.33`	`Taintedwisp`	`He does good work though`
`04:38.35`	`Taintedwisp`	`and quickly`
`04:40.14`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Mexa (~Mexaling@80.78.216.16)`
`04:40.23`	`Mexa`	`woah http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/134672-harvard-cracks-dna-storage-crams-700-terabytes-of-data-into-a-single-gram`
`04:41.28`	`Mexa`	`DNA as potential storage medium, really :o?`
`04:46.27`	`Taintedwisp`	`Mexa... i know I am veiwed as a religious nut of sorts...`
`04:46.32`	`Taintedwisp`	`but DNA... sounds like Revelations..`
`04:46.43`	`Taintedwisp`	`THey are talking about making a tatoo to store data...`
`04:46.50`	`Taintedwisp`	`Doesnt that sound like Hand or forehead type deal..`
`04:46.52`	`Taintedwisp`	`lol`
`04:46.53`	`Taintedwisp`	`Just saying`
`04:47.15`	`Mexa`	`No idea:p`
`04:47.16`	`Taintedwisp`	`Dna storage*`
`04:47.19`	`Taintedwisp`	`Not just DNA..`
`04:47.23`	`Taintedwisp`	`im not that dumb lawl`
`04:47.29`	`Mexa`	`And aösp http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/134682-hackers-backdoor-the-human-brain-successfully-extract-sensitive-data`
`04:47.42`	`Mexa`	`I'm just forwarding links I read today`
`04:48.40`	`Mexa`	`Tainted, I was rather thinking it does sound cool that they are biologically being able to store computer data`
`04:48.59`	`Taintedwisp`	`yeahhhh im good`
`04:48.59`	`Mexa`	`It would work great for backuping large amounts of data too.`
`04:49.13`	`Taintedwisp`	`that really makes me ancy.. I dont want my body being hacked...`
`04:49.25`	`Taintedwisp`	`Or me getting a virus..`
`04:49.31`	`Mexa`	`As long as you don't have that thing on your head :>`
`04:49.32`	`Taintedwisp`	`Im not Re loading this OS`
`04:49.37`	`Mexa`	`haha`
`04:50.01`	`Taintedwisp`	`This is a unique linux.... cant do it... cant reload took 20 years to make`
`04:50.08`	`Taintedwisp`	`expectancy is another 50 years`
`04:50.19`	`Mexa`	`Oh, your brain is a Linux huh?`
`04:50.27`	`Taintedwisp`	`of course, Its open sourc`
`04:50.29`	`Taintedwisp`	`:P`
`04:50.36`	`Taintedwisp`	`Its changed all the time`
`04:50.43`	`Taintedwisp`	`sure as fuck aint windows lawl`
`04:50.57`	`Taintedwisp`	`I dont want the blue screen of death in my head... that would suck`
`04:51.01`	`Taintedwisp`	`:P`
`04:51.11`	`Mexa`	`Could I have your open source repository please, I'd love to check it out, maybe build a branch from it myself`
`04:51.54`	`Mexa`	`Open source means you need to share it as well :>`
`04:53.42`	`Taintedwisp`	`:P`
`04:54.00`	`Taintedwisp`	`It is being shared... just listen and believe the bullshit I spout daily.. you will get a good health dose`
`04:54.20`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Exaken (~AndChat35@a206087.upc-a.chello.nl)`
`04:56.23`	`Mexa`	`oh yeah`
`04:56.33`	`Mexa`	`Maybe your OS isn't that good after all ;)`
`04:56.41`	`Taintedwisp`	`you know i just noticed, and I mean no offense, but I think the Overlay that surrounds your mini Map, CC, and portrait is the ugliest of the Bliz RTS games in sc2...`
`04:57.08`	`Taintedwisp`	`no my OS is amazing, It runs of 8 bit software, and 4byte internet..`
`04:57.10`	`Taintedwisp`	`:D`
`04:57.12`	`Mexa`	`All of the ones?`
`04:57.17`	`Taintedwisp`	`yeah all 3`
`04:57.36`	`Mexa`	`I guess I think they're just fine`
`04:57.37`	`Taintedwisp`	`Think all 3 layouts in Sc2 are uglier then Wc3 and Wc2 and Sc BW`
`04:57.41`	`Taintedwisp`	`I mean they are okay`
`04:57.49`	`Taintedwisp`	`but the other ones were actually great`
`04:58.14`	`Mexa`	`Maybe it's just a bit of nostalgia to say the other ones are better, from your perspective?`
`04:58.44`	`Taintedwisp`	`might be`
`04:58.57`	`Taintedwisp`	`Could be just because I am soo used to the SC2 ones they are starting to bore me a bit`
`05:08.52`	`ckSynergy`	`alright tainted, im hijacking your brain`
`05:09.31`	`ckSynergy`	`apparently 159 IQ isnt enough, so I figure with your 1 IQ itll push me over genius`
`05:09.54`	`Taintedwisp`	`:P`
`05:10.02`	`Taintedwisp`	`but ive been tested at 162...`
`05:10.46`	`Taintedwisp`	`is it bad if I talk to myself, argue with myself, and consult to myself as if there was another person inside me...`
`05:10.52`	`ckSynergy`	`no`
`05:10.55`	`Taintedwisp`	`kk`
`05:11.01`	`ckSynergy`	`cant have genius without insanity`
`05:11.06`	`Taintedwisp`	`k good`
`05:11.07`	`ckSynergy`	`anyway, help me figure this out.`
`05:11.13`	`ckSynergy`	`Same missile problem`
`05:11.52`	`Taintedwisp`	`mmm`
`05:11.56`	`ckSynergy`	`I have a persistant that fires at the target area`
`05:11.58`	`Taintedwisp`	`whats the problem`
`05:12.03`	`Taintedwisp`	`ok`
`05:12.40`	`ckSynergy`	`now, in the target area, I have a persistant that determines 5 random X values from -2 to 2`
`05:12.54`	`ckSynergy`	`that triggers a persistant with a random Y for the same values`
`05:13.17`	`ckSynergy`	`then I launch the missile. Now, how do I make the missile fire in a straight line`
`05:13.51`	`ckSynergy`	`always forward from the direction of the caster/casting point`
`05:14.41`	`ckSynergy`	`and Ill get you a picture in a second`
`05:18.39`	`Taintedwisp`	`just a thought but shouldnt it determine 5 Y values...`
`05:18.43`	`Taintedwisp`	`havent done missles but once`
`05:19.06`	`ckSynergy`	`the X and Y is fine`
`05:19.13`	`ckSynergy`	`its the launch/impact location thats the issue`
`05:19.26`	`ckSynergy`	`one second`
`05:19.29`	`Taintedwisp`	`hmmm`
`05:19.35`	`ckSynergy`	`http://i.imgur.com/hiwmm.jpg`
`05:19.53`	`ckSynergy`	`thats assuming the casting point is north of the caster`
`05:20.10`	`ckSynergy`	`if the casting point was east, the missiles would all be firing east`
`05:20.35`	`Taintedwisp`	`heah i know what you want..`
`05:20.43`	`Taintedwisp`	`Honestly I dont know`
`05:20.45`	`ckSynergy`	`hmm?`
`05:20.47`	`ckSynergy`	`ok`
`05:21.29`	`Taintedwisp`	`Wait till tomorrow when im more awake`
`05:21.32`	`Taintedwisp`	`im about to go to bed`
`05:21.56`	`Taintedwisp`	`well im going ot go to bed,`
`05:21.58`	`Taintedwisp`	`peace everyone`
`05:38.16`	`Khalint`	`oye i need to rebuild my auto attack system`
`05:38.25`	`Khalint`	`getting too many animation errors ><`
`05:48.10`	`ckSynergy`	`heh`
`05:57.15`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Exaken (~AndChat35@a206087.upc-a.chello.nl)`
`05:57.28`	`Khalint`	`i get stuff like if i switch to stealth and then attack when stealth breaks me out the animation switches to firiing a gun for some reason`
`05:57.52`	`Khalint`	`i think its how i layer the animations`
`05:58.05`	`Khalint`	`but if i use a trigger driven auto attack system i think itll be easier`
`06:00.23`	`*** join/#sc2mapster MaskedPoptart (~Daniel@pv135167.reshsg.uci.edu)`
`06:04.43`	`ckSynergy`	`shrugs`
`06:05.30`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Exaken_android (~AndChat64@a206087.upc-a.chello.nl)`
`06:26.57`	`ckSynergy`	`AH HAHAHAHAH FINALLY`
`06:27.15`	`Khalint`	`?`
`06:28.27`	`ckSynergy`	`I finally got my missile figured out`
`06:28.36`	`Khalint`	`nice grats`
`06:28.38`	`ckSynergy`	`... of course, when I added the mover it fired in reverse, but still`
`06:28.49`	`Khalint`	`i just finished most of my new weapons data entry ><`
`06:28.57`	`ckSynergy`	`there we go. not its working perfect`
`06:29.01`	`Khalint`	`nice`
`06:29.05`	`ckSynergy`	`sweet :) grats to u 2`
`06:29.08`	`ckSynergy`	`*now`
`06:29.23`	`Khalint`	`i can now more easily assign icons and models with user data`
`06:29.26`	`Khalint`	`which helps a lot`
`06:29.50`	`Khalint`	`i jsut have to change the triggers to use user data rather than global data table`
`06:30.23`	`Khalint`	`i cant wait till this is more playable`
`06:30.28`	`Khalint`	`i have some fun classes`
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`06:58.28`	`Iiris_Frost`	`hi...:(`
`06:58.33`	`Iiris_Frost`	`:(`
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`08:29.52`	`MGC-Eimtr`	`hey can any1 tell me what prefixes and substrng do you add to Texture Select Id to make it work since 1.5`
`08:37.21`	`MGC-Eimtr`	`can someone tell me, to make Texture select by Id work, in Texture Data do you put anything in the Prefix field and the in the Model>Textures tab> Declarations what di you type in Slot and Trigger on Substring and Prefix to work for 1.5`
`08:43.39`	`ckSynergy`	`hey`
`08:44.06`	`ckSynergy`	`I think they funked up texture selects in 1.5, not sure.`
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`09:21.23`	`tordy`	`you think the concept of cloning is forbidden ?`
`09:23.42`	`equinox1911`	`hihi`
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`11:09.23`	`Totservis`	`no captcha copy-paste today.`
`11:10.34`	`Totservis`	`because of i am sad by saying that what i want to do is impossible (set ingame replay camera as a camera for some player)`
`11:11.49`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Hati1 (~Hati@trir-4d0d99cb.pool.mediaWays.net)`
`11:12.17`	`Totservis`	`<PROTECTED>`
`11:42.01`	`XenoX101`	`how do you view attachment points in this new cutscene editor?`
`11:43.09`	`XenoX101`	`ok I have the attachment points but it doesnt tell me what t ehy are called`
`11:43.10`	`XenoX101`	`they*`
`11:44.28`	`XenoX101`	`oh`
`11:44.30`	`XenoX101`	`window > model data`
`11:44.33`	`XenoX101`	`why is this so tedious now`
`11:49.04`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Fate (55b34fcc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.179.79.204)`
`12:04.40`	`Fate`	`hmmm`
`12:05.06`	`Fate`	`it would be cool to see how many ppl are in the lobby`
`12:05.14`	`Fate`	`before i jion the map`
`12:19.26`	`*** join/#sc2mapster TheSkunk__ (~TheSkunk_@74.37.254.202)`
`12:19.56`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Exaken (~kvirc@a206087.upc-a.chello.nl)`
`12:35.05`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Bibendus (~Bibendus@ip-80-249-36-63.static.adsl.cheapnet.it)`
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`13:37.27`	`MGC-Eimtr`	`[8/18/2012 3:24:18 PM] Warning: Texture set 'StoryMode' has no light entry defined. Minimap may be black! Herp derp... where can I change this Light to be defined?`
`13:50.26`	`*** join/#sc2mapster ducky (53f1057d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.241.5.125)`
`13:50.42`	`*** join/#sc2mapster peq (~media@95-89-120-104-dynip.superkabel.de)`
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`14:00.52`	`MGC-Eimtr`	`in the Cutscene editor how can I see the model details e.g which textures it sues etcf?`
`14:06.49`	`Hobrow`	`select it and hit enter`
`14:06.51`	`Hobrow`	`i think`
`14:10.21`	`MGC-Eimtr`	`yes it's Show model data'`
`14:11.23`	`Hobrow`	`model data is shift-d`
`14:11.58`	`MGC-Eimtr`	`yes found the options thjx`
`14:12.05`	`Hobrow`	`np`
`14:17.06`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Swordman (5d807115@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.128.113.21)`
`14:17.12`	`Swordman`	`good ,morning guys`
`14:18.37`	`Swordman`	`is there a block model in starcraft 2?`
`14:20.17`	`Swordman`	`i saw this minecraft map, and he used blocks. are these imported or included in starcraft 2?`
`14:25.02`	`ducky`	`there are various shape models`
`14:25.07`	`ducky`	`cube included`
`14:26.08`	`Swordman`	`thank you ducky, that's what i was searching for. love your maps btw.`
`14:26.38`	`Fate`	`does duck have more maps than bomberbot?^^`
`14:27.02`	`ducky`	`I don't think so.. Though I'm hosting HeavenBesieged on EU`
`14:28.41`	`Fate`	`well thats to bad^^`
`14:28.57`	`Fate`	`do u work on an other projekt so far?`
`14:29.34`	`ducky`	`I'm slowly working on a co-op hero map`
`14:30.07`	`ducky`	`There were plenty of those in BW, but almost none in WoL :(`
`14:31.12`	`TheSkunk__`	`Thats my plan for my next project =]`
`14:32.01`	`Swordman`	`well, and i'm trying to rebuild minecraft.... i'm sure it is possible, but the shapecube model doesn't look that good :(`
`14:45.24`	`ducky`	`you can try changing it's textures to something more minecrafty to see if it statisfies your need`
`14:48.44`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Sevenix (pheonix@c-83-233-149-105.cust.bredband2.com)`
`14:50.38`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Sevenix (pheonix@c-83-233-149-105.cust.bredband2.com)`
`14:59.19`	`*** join/#sc2mapster MasterReY (~chatzilla@77-21-53-47-dynip.superkabel.de)`
`14:59.25`	`MasterReY`	`hello guys`
`14:59.44`	`TheSkunk__`	`Hi`
`14:59.58`	`MasterReY`	`one quick question: is there a way to check for the state of the watch tower`
`15:00.05`	`MasterReY`	`if its activated right now or not?`
`15:00.48`	`MasterReY`	`i know there is the ability called tower capture but thats only used once right?`
`15:00.52`	`Bibendus`	`hallo guyz`
`15:01.36`	`TheSkunk__`	`Might have to keep periodically checking after the initial cast or something.. =/`
`15:01.53`	`TheSkunk__`	`Not sure exactly how that ability workos`
`15:02.10`	`TheSkunk__`	`Might be possible to set it up to add a dummy behavior which you can use instead`
`15:02.44`	`TheSkunk__`	`ie it adds invible behavior when activated, and the trigger just checks to see it still has the behavior`
`15:02.55`	`MasterReY`	`periodically checking for WHAT is the question :D`
`15:02.58`	`TheSkunk__`	`but I don't know off the bat, no`
`15:03.10`	`TheSkunk__`	`Well, I was just explaining that part :P`
`15:03.15`	`MasterReY`	`behavior sounds great aswell, but WHEN to remove it? :D`
`15:03.27`	`TheSkunk__`	`No, I mean built into the data side`
`15:03.30`	`TheSkunk__`	`not using triggers`
`15:03.39`	`MasterReY`	`hm`
`15:03.40`	`TheSkunk__`	`so it would autoomatically be removed when the spell isn't being cast`
`15:03.44`	`TheSkunk__`	`just an idea`
`15:03.48`	`TheSkunk__`	`Dunno if it'd work`
`15:03.57`	`MasterReY`	`i tried to understand the watchtoer data but i didnt suceed lol`
`15:04.36`	`MasterReY`	`i didnt find where the actors/command/etc are which put the WT back to its unactivated state`
`15:04.51`	`MasterReY`	`tbh i didnt even find the activated tower model t-t`
`15:07.04`	`TheSkunk__`	`uuh, what do you mean?`
`15:07.11`	`TheSkunk__`	`thats under the actor events for the main actor`
`15:07.26`	`TheSkunk__`	`Abil.TowerCapture.SourceStart and SourceStop`
`15:08.03`	`Bibendus`	`hi skunk`
`15:08.12`	`TheSkunk__`	`Hi Bibendus :D`
`15:08.23`	`Bibendus`	`;)`
`15:09.42`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Exaken\|2 (~kvirc@a206087.upc-a.chello.nl)`
`15:10.09`	`TheSkunk__`	`hmm hmm, not sure how you'd be able to do that TBH masterrey`
`15:10.22`	`TheSkunk__`	`but you can always use triggers to check if there is a unit within range of the tower`
`15:10.28`	`TheSkunk__`	`and no enemy units in range with it`
`15:10.32`	`MasterReY`	`ya`
`15:10.37`	`MasterReY`	`thats what im doing`
`15:11.05`	`TheSkunk__`	`But besides that.. there might be another way but I can't help you with it, sorry`
`15:11.08`	`MasterReY`	`but my problem is that the tower GETS activiated in a radius of 3 but it STAYS activated til a range of 3.5 !`
`15:11.15`	`MasterReY`	`so there is this 0.5 wherre my triggers fail`
`15:12.06`	`MasterReY`	`well i can use a bit more triggers to fix it but i thought there is an easier way`
`15:12.09`	`MasterReY`	`but thanks anyways`
`15:13.39`	`*** join/#sc2mapster equinox1911 (~equi@p4FDD70BA.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`15:14.54`	`Swordman`	`hey, ducky, these cube's are glowing. can i delete the glowing?`
`15:17.16`	`Bibendus`	`what cubes`
`15:17.18`	`Bibendus`	`:O`
`15:22.04`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Stewox (~chatzilla@86.58.34.166)`
`15:22.13`	`Tivec`	`hmm, if I have a map I've been working with and added some custom data to it, can I export the data from it somehow to make it a mod?`
`15:22.37`	`Swordman`	`ah fuck, starcraft 2 can't handle 2 million units -.-`
`15:23.32`	`Vailreth`	`there is a way to convert a map to a mod, and no SC2 Cant handle that many`
`15:24.17`	`Tivec`	`Vailreth: it'd be handy with something like "export data" ^^ but I suppose it's a more involved method?`
`15:24.29`	`Vailreth`	`yes.`
`15:25.42`	`Vailreth`	`the easist method i know of is to save the map out as a components folder, edit that to get rid of terrain and trigger data and then rename it as a mod and open the folder again in the editor and saving it as a mod file`
`15:26.04`	`Stewox`	`Special Report: Everyone Listen Closely: This could be a historic event - EA may be sold to private equity firm, if you want the IPs to end up in capable hands vote on this petition now http://www.change.org/petitions/providence-equity-partners-win-ea-aquisition-vs-kkr-fire-it-s-management-give-ip-cntrl-to-zenimax - this is a big opportunity and win for consumers from whole gaming industry!...`
`15:26.05`	`Stewox`	`...The reason I post this here because this is a RTS community and the petition also includes C&C, unrelated to SC2 but still a worth mentioning as many of SC2 players are most probably familiar with the C&C franchise.`
`15:27.23`	`Tivec`	`Vailreth: ok, i'll see if I can do that :) just want to put some of my data separate from the map`
`15:27.24`	`Stewox`	`to clear everyone's mind here, the petition was started by me so thanks for votes guys that know me im a regular in this chat`
`15:28.49`	`Vailreth`	`its a bit more invlovlved than my simple expination but that the basic idea of it`
`15:29.12`	`ckSynergy`	`Yes lol`
`15:29.15`	`Tivec`	`Vailreth: haha, just exported and went "wut" over the amount of stuff in the folder..`
`15:29.21`	`ckSynergy`	`you can convert map<->mod`
`15:29.22`	`Tivec`	`so a bit more involved, indeed.`
`15:29.34`	`Bibendus`	`wuts that`
`15:29.49`	`Bibendus`	`and what s a private equity firm`
`15:30.22`	`Stewox`	`well google it damn it ...`
`15:30.27`	`ckSynergy`	`I dont know lol`
`15:30.33`	`ckSynergy`	`but I doubt that EA may be sold`
`15:31.06`	`Stewox`	`here's the news piece: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/363551/ea-exploring-sale-to-private-equity-firms-claims-report/`
`15:31.30`	`ckSynergy`	`EA will do like its games. Fragment into 10,000 smaller companies and slowly self-destruct piece by piece until theyre finally bankrupt as a whole and theres no salvation.`
`15:31.33`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Lilianna (~Lilianna@71-84-18-236.dhcp.trlk.ca.charter.com)`
`15:31.57`	`Stewox`	`Well, salvation is in Providence Equity Partners`
`15:32.19`	`Stewox`	`EA shareholders will agree to a sale if they know it's going to fail`
`15:33.01`	`ckSynergy`	`Stewox: Is this because you liked the C&C franchise?`
`15:33.10`	`ckSynergy`	`were there any other games by EA you liked?`
`15:33.13`	`Stewox`	`that's part of the story`
`15:33.20`	`Stewox`	`the whole thing is totally objective`
`15:33.31`	`ckSynergy`	`you do realize EA completely bastardized that game right?`
`15:33.45`	`ckSynergy`	`Westwood sold out on us`
`15:33.55`	`Stewox`	`ckSynergy`
`15:34.01`	`Vailreth`	`westwood was tricked`
`15:34.03`	`Stewox`	`you better read the whole petition text`
`15:34.19`	`Stewox`	`i've described all that what your saying now, it's good`
`15:34.42`	`*** join/#sc2mapster MGC-Eimtr (4f7c3a21@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.124.58.33)`
`15:34.45`	`ckSynergy`	`tricked, sold out, doesnt matter. Westwood saw a quick buck and abandoned ship`
`15:35.09`	`Stewox`	`i will provide actual links to stories to back me up on those`
`15:36.12`	`Stewox`	`those links are at the bottom of the petition in the news section`
`15:36.33`	`MGC-Eimtr`	`Does any1 how to set lighting of a model? I see this model dropdown for Lighting but it does nothing. I thought the lighting of the model would change the same way it does if you change the whole Terrain set's ;ighing`
`15:36.40`	`ckSynergy`	`LMFAO OMG holy crap. They seriously pulled a stun like renaming generals 2 and all that crap?`
`15:37.31`	`ckSynergy`	`and whats this free-to-play crap? C&C has always been free to play. I read "free-to-play" and that instantly translates to "if I want to full game expeience I have to shell out more money every month"`
`15:37.33`	`Exaken`	`Generals 2 will also be f2p, which will probably be pay2win`
`15:38.20`	`Stewox`	`exaken, i've mentioned that in the petition as well, i keep good eye on stuff and remember a lot, played C&C since 1997`
`15:38.54`	`MGC-Eimtr`	`And since Lighting of a model doesn't bring the effect you would get if you changed the whoel Terrain Set lighting, is there a way to change the lighting for a region the way you change for the entire map from terrain set?`
`15:38.55`	`Stewox`	`don't remember exact date but i started even sooner, yeah it's 97 when i was 7 years old my dad got first PC and it was all Dune 200`
`15:38.59`	`Stewox`	`Dune 2000*`
`15:39.07`	`Stewox`	`then it just went up`
`15:42.19`	`ckSynergy`	`Stewox, this really isnt the area for discussing signing a petition. You might get a few signatures, but honestly, 100 votes isnt going to make EA do anything, and the older gamers are aware of this (We've tried many times to convince WW/EA to go a different directly but they never listened)`
`15:42.33`	`ckSynergy`	`*direction`
`15:42.41`	`Stewox`	`the votes needed have not been selected by me`
`15:42.58`	`Stewox`	`that seems to be just the first milestone made automatically`
`15:45.22`	`ckSynergy`	`either way, its not going to do anything`
`15:46.32`	`*** join/#sc2mapster RazielZ (~Raziel@92.81.163.239)`
`15:47.00`	`ckSynergy`	`You want them to change, theres only one way to do it. Dont buy their games`
`15:48.10`	`Stewox`	`i don't buy anything ea`
`15:48.30`	`Stewox`	`and thanks for sign`
`15:48.59`	`*** join/#sc2mapster MGC-Eimtr (4f7c3a21@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.124.58.33)`
`15:50.09`	`MGC-Eimtr`	`EY, is there any other way to start a Map OFFLINE except 'Test Map' from the editor? Dragging doesn't work anymore thx to launcher?`
`15:50.22`	`MGC-Eimtr`	`other ways?`
`15:51.03`	`ckSynergy`	`?`
`15:51.43`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Stewox (~chatzilla@86.58.34.166)`
`15:52.37`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Raziel_ (~Raziel@92.81.163.239)`
`15:53.13`	`Fisker`	`Kaelten`
`15:53.18`	`Fisker`	`ban stewox for being a fucktard`
`15:53.26`	`MGC-Eimtr`	`is there any way to load/play a map offline in other ways besides hitting Test Map from the editor?`
`15:53.33`	`MGC-Eimtr`	`since dragging doesnt work`
`15:53.38`	`MGC-Eimtr`	`anymore`
`15:53.44`	`Stewox`	`Fisker`
`15:54.00`	`MGC-Eimtr`	`i just want to know, cause.. I dont like opening the editor every time i wanna start a map offline`
`15:54.13`	`Stewox`	`you're sitting in this chat as 50% of others who never say anything just keep AFKing you may just leave this place`
`15:54.18`	`MGC-Eimtr`	`so is there?`
`15:54.43`	`*** join/#sc2mapster zeldarules28 (4777e1b6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.119.225.182)`
`15:54.45`	`Fisker`	`i don't give a fuck`
`15:54.52`	`Fisker`	`don't spam people in queries`
`15:55.07`	`zeldarules28`	`Sounds like you guys are having fun ^.^`
`15:55.14`	`Exaken`	`haha`
`15:55.35`	`Stewox`	`nobody spams nothing`
`15:55.38`	`Stewox`	`it was just one message`
`15:55.47`	`Fisker`	`yes`
`15:55.48`	`Stewox`	`whining baby`
`15:55.52`	`Fisker`	`unsolicited communication = spam`
`15:55.59`	`Fisker`	`multiple messages = flood`
`15:56.05`	`Fisker`	`learn the difference`
`15:56.29`	`Stewox`	`well what are you doing here, AFKing all day, just as many others`
`15:56.46`	`Stewox`	`i've never saw you say anything and im 2 years here`
`15:56.58`	`UloseTheGame`	`Btw, anyone following the caster decemberscalm?`
`15:57.00`	`Fisker`	`well if i'm afk why did you message me?`
`15:57.13`	`Fisker`	`if i'm afk i can't read your message silly!`
`15:57.29`	`Stewox`	`doesn't matter`
`15:58.00`	`Stewox`	`you're one of the guys who sits in this chat and does noting that's just what i would said anyways,`
`15:58.44`	`Fisker`	`so it's ok for you to spam people because they may miss your "glorious" statement?`
`15:58.55`	`UloseTheGame`	`http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbABlmvVyWU&feature=channel&list=UL`
`15:59.09`	`UloseTheGame`	`THIS is an amazing game`
`15:59.24`	`Stewox`	`man i sent everyone because i know most of them are AFK and will not see the discussion the present guys had`
`15:59.26`	`Stewox`	`thats it`
`15:59.53`	`Stewox`	`if it wasnt the case of 60% of peoole AFKing all day for 2 years then i wouldnt do that`
`16:00.56`	`Fisker`	`is it less ok if 59% of people AFK all day?`
`16:01.02`	`Stewox`	`i know most of these, they were here since the SC2 beta even before SC2 was released`
`16:01.25`	`Stewox`	`well I don't know why on earth would they do that`
`16:01.31`	`Stewox`	`and when somebody says something it's already spam`
`16:01.35`	`Stewox`	`that's ridicolous`
`16:01.39`	`ckSynergy`	`Stewox: No one cares. Im sorry man but give it up and end it at that`
`16:01.42`	`Stewox`	`i don't know what logic is this`
`16:01.55`	`Stewox`	`it doesn't matter what the content is`
`16:02.01`	`Stewox`	`it was one message`
`16:02.22`	`ckSynergy`	`Stewox: Its fine. Dont do it again, and stop flooding the chanell before you do get banned`
`16:02.24`	`Stewox`	`that's just classic american bullcrap`
`16:04.13`	`*** join/#sc2mapster zenx1 (d918696b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.24.105.107)`
`16:04.23`	`ckSynergy`	`So, I have an ability with a target facing of 0. Right now I cant cast my ability even though my unit has a turret. I know there was a post about this on sc2mapster but I cant find it. Does anyone have a link?`
`16:04.52`	`*** join/#sc2mapster TheSkunk__ (~TheSkunk_@74.37.254.85)`
`16:05.54`	`Vailreth`	`i think abilities work on unit facing not turret facing but i could be wrong`
`16:09.04`	`ckSynergy`	`yea, thats an issue when its a structure lol`
`16:09.19`	`TheSkunk__`	`Hmm, I can helpful reviews on my own map`
`16:09.29`	`TheSkunk__`	`helpfuls ones that rate it high`
`16:09.33`	`TheSkunk__`	`Seems a bit fishy`
`16:11.18`	`TheSkunk__`	`Are people supposed to be able to review maps that are published privately? :P`
`16:12.58`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Raziel__ (~Raziel@92.83.163.4)`
`16:15.23`	`TheSkunk__`	`Now (I think) players can see they have reviewed my map on their profile`
`16:15.38`	`TheSkunk__`	`and thus anyone can see my map.. desipute being "private"`
`16:15.47`	`TheSkunk__`	`Will have to look in to it more to know for sure, though`
`16:17.17`	`*** join/#sc2mapster RazielZ (~Raziel@92.83.163.4)`
`16:18.00`	`Bibendus`	`where is sixen`
`16:18.04`	`Bibendus`	`:\|`
`16:18.09`	`Bibendus`	`btw`
`16:18.13`	`Bibendus`	`is there any news from gamescom?`
`16:18.13`	`TheSkunk__`	`He's flying somewhere`
`16:18.19`	`TheSkunk__`	`climbing moutn everest or something`
`16:18.22`	`Bibendus`	`bout sc2`
`16:18.34`	`TheSkunk__`	`only a little, not hardly any though`
`16:19.00`	`Tivec`	`hrm.. is there a tutorial somewhere that teaches you how to make a hero unit from scratch? that is, without copying another and working from there?`
`16:19.13`	`TheSkunk__`	`"Poasting from 30000ft because I'm dedicated, :)." -- Sixen Yesterday`
`16:19.18`	`TheSkunk__`	`I have no idea what that means`
`16:19.51`	`TheSkunk__`	`But evidently, he's flying`
`16:21.50`	`Bibendus`	`lol`
`16:22.00`	`Bibendus`	`he probably went to gamescom`
`16:22.15`	`Bibendus`	`or everest`
`16:22.16`	`Bibendus`	`:D`
`16:23.58`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Net_Creator (~Net_Creat@adsl-98-93-131-56.owb.bellsouth.net)`
`16:40.37`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Taintedwisp (adbd34fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.189.52.252)`
`16:41.50`	`zenx1`	`I baked delicious pizza today`
`16:41.57`	`zenx1`	`:E`
`16:42.36`	`zenx1`	`now I should have enough energy for mapping, but im lacking ideas for spells :/`
`16:46.37`	`Taintedwisp`	`make a spell that kills all players named "zenx1"`
`16:46.42`	`Taintedwisp`	`is fun spelll... really is`
`16:47.43`	`Taintedwisp`	`Why so quiet in here?`
`16:48.12`	`Taintedwisp`	`HAHAHAAHAHAH`
`16:48.15`	`Taintedwisp`	`I WIN AS ALWAYS`
`16:48.16`	`Taintedwisp`	`MWHAHAHA`
`16:49.24`	`zenx1`	`everyone is playing mini chop chop warms, let us concentrate`
`16:50.16`	`Taintedwisp`	`:D`
`16:50.24`	`Taintedwisp`	`chop chop Farms.`
`16:50.26`	`Taintedwisp`	`lol`
`16:50.37`	`Taintedwisp`	`http://finance.yahoo.com/news/japan-s-epic-fast-food-war-inspired-these-crazy-menu-items.html How is it that america is the fattest...`
`16:50.44`	`Taintedwisp`	`damn asians and their 2 stomachs...`
`16:53.24`	`Taintedwisp`	`Is there a way to change 1 field on a bunch of units at once`
`16:54.34`	`TheSkunk__`	`oh, hey Tainted`
`16:54.36`	`TheSkunk__`	`I was watching a replay of people testing my map`
`16:55.20`	`zenx1`	`fastest way is probly just to copy paste the values`
`16:55.22`	`zenx1`	`you can copy some`
`16:55.55`	`zenx1`	`you can also use "copy from unit" but that will most likely fuck up the actors and such`
`16:56.12`	`Taintedwisp`	`:P`
`16:56.17`	`zenx1`	`and it would copy multiple values anyway`
`16:56.23`	`Taintedwisp`	`Nah its just actor model size`
`16:56.31`	`Taintedwisp`	`I can type it just as fast`
`17:02.03`	`Taintedwisp`	`Theres that, That was bugging the hell outta me..`
`17:02.04`	`Taintedwisp`	`lol`
`17:02.28`	`Taintedwisp`	`When I made the spawners, I made them all WAy too big`
`17:02.34`	`Taintedwisp`	`like a 1.35 Leviathen...`
`17:02.35`	`Taintedwisp`	`lol`
`17:02.39`	`Taintedwisp`	`or a 2.5 mutalisk..`
`17:02.40`	`Taintedwisp`	`lawl`
`17:02.47`	`Taintedwisp`	`I thought it would look good.. i was wrong`
`17:02.51`	`Taintedwisp`	`So now they are like 1.3 for muta`
`17:02.55`	`Taintedwisp`	`.5 for leviathen`
`17:02.56`	`Taintedwisp`	`lol`
`17:11.44`	`Repo`	`Updated wiki entry: Galaxy / Map / Game Variants - http://www.sc2mapster.com/wiki/galaxy/map/game-variants/`
`17:14.26`	`zenx1`	`somehow I never found sc2wiki usefull`
`17:14.34`	`zenx1`	`it lacks examples and such :/`
`17:15.58`	`TheSkunk__`	`Its good for looking up obscure things sometimes`
`17:27.10`	`Taintedwisp`	`Hey Vailreth do you have a minute?`
`17:27.18`	`Vailreth`	`yes`
`17:27.47`	`Taintedwisp`	`One of my spawners, I dont really remember which one, Refuses to move, I checked the flags and they are all identical,any idea what could be the problem?`
`17:28.14`	`Vailreth`	`movement speed perhaps?`
`17:28.22`	`Vailreth`	`or acceleration ?`
`17:28.22`	`Taintedwisp`	`well its not just that`
`17:28.28`	`Taintedwisp`	`It wont let me select it either when it comes up`
`17:28.37`	`Taintedwisp`	`i noticed it during an evolution system test`
`17:29.18`	`Vailreth`	`hmm.`
`17:29.27`	`Taintedwisp`	`Thats why I had thought flags`
`17:29.37`	`Taintedwisp`	`the evolution system is done by triggers`
`17:29.43`	`Vailreth`	`is it a custom model?`
`17:29.48`	`Taintedwisp`	`I wonder if it is somehow only getting the actor and not the actual unit`
`17:29.53`	`Taintedwisp`	`no its a standard model`
`17:30.01`	`Taintedwisp`	`Wait it couldnt be just the actor though`
`17:30.10`	`Taintedwisp`	`Because the Behavior to spawn units was still working`
`17:32.20`	`Taintedwisp`	`hmm`
`17:32.22`	`Taintedwisp`	`give me 2 minutes`
`17:32.24`	`Taintedwisp`	`imma runa test`
`17:32.32`	`Taintedwisp`	`Imma place all spawners and make sure its not a trigger problem`
`17:35.13`	`Vailreth`	`ok`
`17:35.29`	`Taintedwisp`	`imma try preplacing all the spawners to see which ones move :P`
`17:36.08`	`*** mode/#sc2mapster [+v Hati] by ChanServ`
`17:36.20`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Stewox (~chatzilla@86.58.34.166)`
`17:36.57`	`Taintedwisp`	`if it is a Spawner problem I really dont know what to do lawl`
`17:38.02`	`Stewox`	`~seen mkmisfit`
`17:38.09`	`purl`	`mkmisfit <4cd015c6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.208.21.198> was last seen on IRC in channel #sc2mapster, 3d 8m 56s ago, saying: '2.6 megabytes?'.`
`17:38.55`	`Vailreth`	`i can take a look at the map if you like`
`17:40.26`	`Taintedwisp`	`Yeah if oyu wouldnt mind`
`17:40.34`	`Taintedwisp`	`I know its evolution 6 - terran`
`17:40.37`	`Vailreth`	`not a problem`
`17:40.51`	`Taintedwisp`	`But there was one more, and there might be one on the other races that I dont know about.`
`17:41.36`	`Taintedwisp`	`Plus I think there was another one on the terran race, but I only had 6 hero portraits.`
`17:41.41`	`Stewox`	`¸lol cannot be logged in bnet while in editor ?`
`17:41.47`	`Stewox`	`can't login both`
`17:41.57`	`Stewox`	`dropped me out of game :(`
`17:42.04`	`TheSkunk__`	`Yep`
`17:42.44`	`Taintedwisp`	`https://www.dropbox.com/s/mhwi5dpnfr4szzx/EvolutionFrenzyNew.SC2Map`
`17:42.45`	`Taintedwisp`	`Try that`
`17:43.11`	`Taintedwisp`	`if that doenst work ill have to copy it to my public folder`
`17:43.52`	`Vailreth`	`ive got it`
`17:43.59`	`Vailreth`	`opening it now`
`17:44.01`	`Taintedwisp`	`kk`
`17:47.31`	`Stewox`	`guys need help`
`17:47.39`	`Stewox`	`im trying to update map description`
`17:47.49`	`Stewox`	`and it wants me to republish with 1.1 version`
`17:47.57`	`Stewox`	`do i really need to do this ?`
`17:48.10`	`Stewox`	`is there a way to test it before messing up the versions`
`17:48.43`	`Stewox`	`because if i didn't do something fine it'll have to to another change until it get past 1.2 and not really anything changed in the actual gameplay`
`17:48.46`	`Taintedwisp`	`just the description`
`17:48.57`	`Stewox`	`yeah`
`17:49.01`	`TheSkunk__`	`Publish under a different name`
`17:49.03`	`TheSkunk__`	`=/`
`17:49.06`	`Stewox`	`map info and that stuff`
`17:49.08`	`Taintedwisp`	`you can hit the test map button to see your changes`
`17:49.19`	`Taintedwisp`	`they should appear on the loading screen`
`17:49.23`	`TheSkunk__`	`Map description you might be able to test a different way though`
`17:49.26`	`Taintedwisp`	`or are you talking about arcade descript`
`17:49.58`	`Taintedwisp`	`Dont worrie, when it hits version 1.9, the next is actually 1.01`
`17:49.59`	`Taintedwisp`	`lol`
`17:50.10`	`Taintedwisp`	`wait`
`17:50.12`	`Taintedwisp`	`i mean 1.10`
`17:50.15`	`Taintedwisp`	`then 1.11`
`17:50.27`	`Taintedwisp`	`means 1 major revision, 11 minor revisions`
`17:53.19`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Totservis (25902d19@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.144.45.25)`
`17:53.22`	`Totservis`	`and ituagran`
`17:53.29`	`Totservis`	`captcha still rocks as usual`
`17:55.38`	`Vailreth`	`how do you evolve?`
`17:55.39`	`Taintedwisp`	`lol`
`17:55.50`	`Taintedwisp`	`through triggers`
`17:56.01`	`Taintedwisp`	`It removes the current fromt he game, and Creates a new one`
`17:56.19`	`Taintedwisp`	`Its something to do with data, I preplaced the spawners and 6 was still unselectable`
`17:57.18`	`Taintedwisp`	`It completely Bypasses my morph abilities that were useless and are now removed`
`17:57.19`	`Taintedwisp`	`lol`
`18:01.15`	`Taintedwisp`	`In my triggerers defence I never tested the spawners like this before lol, so theres no telling how long its been`
`18:05.40`	`Taintedwisp`	`Vailreth, I tested it, and he is moveable, via triggers....`
`18:05.45`	`Taintedwisp`	`how his data is there`
`18:05.53`	`Taintedwisp`	`but I cant select him..`
`18:06.04`	`Vailreth`	`hmm`
`18:06.36`	`Taintedwisp`	`It is really confusing me...`
`18:11.20`	`Stewox`	`okay just so it doesn't jump to 2.0`
`18:11.34`	`Stewox`	`map description is in lobby`
`18:12.10`	`Taintedwisp`	`Hey Vailreth, what is subgorup Alias? I noticed that he is the only one with none in that field`
`18:12.50`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Hobrow^disc (~q@i5E863399.versanet.de)`
`18:12.52`	`Vailreth`	`worth testsing`
`18:13.04`	`Vailreth`	`im doing so now`
`18:13.08`	`Taintedwisp`	`kk`
`18:13.31`	`Vailreth`	`yes thats it`
`18:14.03`	`Taintedwisp`	`wow...`
`18:14.07`	`Taintedwisp`	`I wonder what it does...`
`18:14.20`	`Taintedwisp`	`See thats the kind of things I ment by WE NEED THE REST OF THOSE TOOLTIPS`
`18:14.22`	`Taintedwisp`	`lol`
`18:14.27`	`Taintedwisp`	`30 minutes of time would have been spared`
`18:14.28`	`Taintedwisp`	`lawl`
`18:14.30`	`Taintedwisp`	`thanks vail`
`18:15.36`	`Vailreth`	`by the way did you account for players killing their own units?`
`18:16.15`	`Taintedwisp`	`Yup`
`18:16.18`	`Taintedwisp`	`My triggerer fixed that`
`18:16.19`	`Taintedwisp`	`:D`
`18:16.37`	`Taintedwisp`	`This new guy is doing great, but I only get to talk to him for like 1 hour a day because he maps while I sleep`
`18:16.48`	`Taintedwisp`	`everything is stored in a shared Dropbox folder`
`18:17.26`	`Vailreth`	`i see`
`18:19.29`	`Taintedwisp`	`Thanks for your help Vail`
`18:28.40`	`Totservis`	`i just think in replay mode we can switch between cameras of every player`
`18:28.54`	`Totservis`	`so cameras are being saved during game somewhere`
`18:29.11`	`Totservis`	`that's why i don't need to save them myself`
`18:30.02`	`Totservis`	`i just got to find out where are cameras saved and gain access making it possible to load for one or another player a camera which is currently in use by a third player`
`18:31.04`	`Taintedwisp`	`this for Photon Cycles Tot?`
`18:31.09`	`Totservis`	`yep`
`18:31.17`	`Taintedwisp`	`if so you could Set poin to their unit, and set the camera to the point`
`18:31.19`	`Totservis`	`and for Robostrike too`
`18:31.25`	`Taintedwisp`	`Move point* to their unit`
`18:31.39`	`Taintedwisp`	`If what your trying to do is make a Death cam`
`18:31.46`	`Taintedwisp`	`where you can watch the poeple who are alive from their cameras`
`18:31.51`	`*** join/#sc2mapster zenx1 (d918696b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.24.105.107)`
`18:32.07`	`Totservis`	`camera is rotating by mouse - that's the problem`
`18:32.18`	`Totservis`	`not by a cycle being turned`
`18:32.57`	`Taintedwisp`	`ah`
`18:34.27`	`*** join/#sc2mapster peq (~media@95-90-44-27-dynip.superkabel.de)`
`18:36.13`	`TheSkunk__`	`Argh, things randomly disappearing off of command card and detector behavior not detecting.. sometimes seems like the editor randomly does things to work against you`
`18:48.09`	`Taintedwisp`	`of course skunk... DUHHH`
`18:48.17`	`Taintedwisp`	`It hates your guts... what you expect`
`18:48.35`	`TheSkunk__`	`But why me? :( I've been so kind to it`
`18:49.38`	`TheSkunk__`	`defuq`
`18:49.54`	`TheSkunk__`	`fetal error and closed out when i tried to undo deleting an ability from a unit`
`18:49.58`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Scorp_ (5e91107b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.145.16.123)`
`18:49.59`	`TheSkunk__`	`yeaaa.. just hates me`
`18:50.04`	`TheSkunk__`	`-_-`
`18:50.20`	`Scorp_`	`artestru is here?`
`18:50.37`	`TheSkunk__`	`Nah`
`18:50.45`	`Scorp_`	`:/`
`18:50.50`	`TheSkunk__`	`Think he just left it up on his computer or something o.0`
`18:51.52`	`TheSkunk__`	`editor is evil`
`18:51.56`	`TheSkunk__`	`ragin', ragin'`
`18:52.47`	`Scorp_`	`nah its cool, just buggy`
`18:53.14`	`TheSkunk__`	`Well it has only pure hatred for me`
`18:55.14`	`Taintedwisp`	`:P`
`18:55.25`	`Taintedwisp`	`Artestru and deletarius, have only been on Mon-Fri`
`18:55.46`	`Taintedwisp`	`Bu tthere is no Gauerentee that they will continue so keep that in mind.`
`18:56.09`	`TheSkunk__`	`Awe, man`
`18:56.25`	`TheSkunk__`	`Didn't lose too much of my work, but it undid some notes I wrote in a comment`
`18:56.33`	`TheSkunk__`	`and I forgot them :X`
`18:57.01`	`TheSkunk__`	`=/`
`18:57.11`	`Taintedwisp`	`Im pretty sure... 90% of them`
`18:57.23`	`Taintedwisp`	`Said "Taintedwisp is the most awesome person ever!!!!"`
`18:57.27`	`Taintedwisp`	`Im pretty sure`
`18:57.35`	`TheSkunk__`	`yeah`
`18:57.41`	`TheSkunk__`	`but 10% of them were important`
`18:57.43`	`TheSkunk__`	`:D`
`18:57.45`	`Taintedwisp`	`:P`
`18:58.14`	`TheSkunk__`	`Nah, it isn't really a big deal but I'm getting tired of this`
`18:59.03`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Exaken\|2 (~kvirc@a206087.upc-a.chello.nl)`
`18:59.35`	`Taintedwisp`	`This is what Happens skunk... people screw up.. when I am being Productive`
`18:59.40`	`Taintedwisp`	`and I am being VERY VERY productive today`
`18:59.43`	`Taintedwisp`	`I am getting tons done`
`18:59.44`	`Taintedwisp`	`lalw`
`19:00.22`	`Taintedwisp`	`You know, I think my map could be tested now... :D`
`19:00.32`	`Taintedwisp`	`though Its going to need some major balancing`
`19:00.44`	`Taintedwisp`	`MAJOR BALANCINg`
`19:00.45`	`Taintedwisp`	`lol`
`19:00.52`	`Taintedwisp`	`30 units to balance...`
`19:00.57`	`Taintedwisp`	`3 for each teir`
`19:01.06`	`Taintedwisp`	`Not going to be an easy task`
`19:02.12`	`Taintedwisp`	`hmm also I am thinking about making all the units a Rock Paper Scissors type deal, each will be 1 of the 3 armor and attack types`
`19:09.19`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Exaken (~kvirc@a206087.upc-a.chello.nl)`
`19:18.12`	`Taintedwisp`	`Ahh I love having 2 brothers...`
`19:18.17`	`Taintedwisp`	`Slave labor testors`
`19:18.18`	`Taintedwisp`	`lol`
`19:18.33`	`Taintedwisp`	`And my brothers GF plays sc2... shitty, but plays it, so she helps test too`
`19:18.34`	`Taintedwisp`	`lawl`
`19:18.52`	`Taintedwisp`	`Guess ill get on WoW for a bit`
`19:19.01`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Iiris_Frost (~chatzilla@99-73-217-161.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net)`
`19:20.03`	`Iiris_Frost`	`Could someone link me to the photoshop plugin for dds. its not in the assets section`
`19:20.43`	`JademusSreg`	`Nvidia.`
`19:20.53`	`Iiris_Frost`	`anyone?`
`19:21.13`	`JademusSreg`	`Nvidia's site.`
`19:21.24`	`JademusSreg`	`Also, you are Frostwind. Haha`
`19:21.54`	`Iiris_Frost`	`I'm talking about the dds export plugin for photoshop that is for SC2`
`19:22.23`	`JademusSreg`	`N v i d i a`
`19:22.36`	`Iiris_Frost`	`its fan made`
`19:23.03`	`JademusSreg`	`I wonder where you may have read such a thing.`
`19:23.05`	`Iiris_Frost`	`Blizzard never released one`
`19:23.25`	`Iiris_Frost`	`dds is blizzard new image type after blp`
`19:23.31`	`JademusSreg`	`Hahahahaha`
`19:23.34`	`JademusSreg`	`No.`
`19:23.47`	`JademusSreg`	`Go to the Nvidia site and get the dds plugin.`
`19:25.20`	`Iiris_Frost`	`nvidia won't have it. its a blizzard file type`
`19:25.26`	`JademusSreg`	`It's not.`
`19:25.29`	`Iiris_Frost`	`the plugin is fan made`
`19:25.33`	`JademusSreg`	`It's not.`
`19:25.43`	`Iiris_Frost`	`just like the M# one for 3DS`
`19:25.46`	`JademusSreg`	`Double-wrong combo. -500 points.`
`19:25.51`	`Iiris_Frost`	`M3*`
`19:26.16`	`JademusSreg`	`M3 is proprietary; DDS is not.`
`19:26.27`	`JademusSreg`	`And the photoshop plugin was made by Nvidia.`
`19:27.59`	`Iiris_Frost`	`I clearly saw it on mapster`
`19:28.05`	`Iiris_Frost`	`and it was fan made`
`19:28.13`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Eiviyn (586f97b6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.111.151.182)`
`19:28.19`	`Iiris_Frost`	`never made by nvidia`
`19:29.14`	`JademusSreg`	`If you want to believe the Nvidia photoshop dds plugin is not made by Nvidia, and if you want to believe dds is a Blizzard format, I won't stop you from being wrong. So by all means, keep searching.`
`19:29.32`	`Eiviyn`	`Ignore Iiris, he's pretty stupid`
`19:29.52`	`Eiviyn`	`Don't actually put him on ignore though, the things he says are still worth reading for comedic value`
`19:31.13`	`Iiris_Frost`	`Could someone link me to the photoshop plugin for dds. its not in the assets section`
`19:31.58`	`JademusSreg`	`Haha.`
`19:32.38`	`JademusSreg`	`Iiris used to be known as Frostwind, before everyone became exhausted by its constant whining and sigh emotes.`
`19:33.13`	`Iiris_Frost`	`Who the fuck is frost wind`
`19:33.25`	`Eiviyn`	`He still does that`
`19:33.29`	`Eiviyn`	`Only now it's sad faces`
`19:33.31`	`JademusSreg`	`Hah.`
`19:34.38`	`Eiviyn`	`Why does "lock alliances" sometimes not lock alliances`
`19:34.58`	`Eiviyn`	`Lock Teams even`
`19:35.20`	`Eiviyn`	`Rarely I get a 4v2 match instead of a 3v3`
`19:36.05`	`JademusSreg`	`bbl, shit to do`
`19:36.08`	`zenx1`	`cant you disable that? not sure thou`
`19:36.30`	`Eiviyn`	`Seems not`
`19:36.42`	`Eiviyn`	`I assign teams using "pick each player on team[a]"`
`19:37.04`	`Eiviyn`	`The action that picks out your lobby team`
`19:37.07`	`zenx1`	`pretty weird, I havent had any problems`
`19:38.08`	`Eiviyn`	`Damn sure it's related to people changing teams in the lobby`
`19:38.56`	`zenx1`	`pretty hard to believe it would be a bug, since I havent encountered those bugs in any other game`
`19:38.58`	`zenx1`	`but dunno`
`19:38.59`	`*** join/#sc2mapster tigger0jk (~tigger0jk@c-71-202-39-119.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)`
`19:41.01`	`*** join/#sc2mapster muzzy (muzzy@188.117.16.20)`
`19:44.31`	`*** join/#sc2mapster TheSkunk__ (~TheSkunk_@70-100-200-15.dsl2.nor.ny.frontiernet.net)`
`19:48.56`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Mexa (~Mexaling@80.78.216.16)`
`19:58.29`	`Repo`	`Updated wiki entry: Galaxy / Map / Game Variants - http://www.sc2mapster.com/wiki/galaxy/map/game-variants/`
`19:58.45`	`zenx1`	`wohoo`
`19:58.59`	`zenx1`	`almost`
`19:59.01`	`zenx1`	`ready`
`19:59.05`	`zenx1`	`for publish`
`19:59.52`	`TheSkunk__`	`Thats what I always think, too`
`19:59.56`	`TheSkunk__`	`Always turns out to be one more thing`
`20:00.37`	`zenx1`	`well ofc 1st publish will be a bit buggy`
`20:00.55`	`zenx1`	`but Im almsot ready ^^ (might take 1 week or 1-2 days)`
`20:01.42`	`zenx1`	`once I get it out I will probly just switch to new project`
`20:02.19`	`zenx1`	`mainly cause making RPG is too time consuming :/`
`20:03.01`	`muzzy`	`does anyone here know any details about the "legal issue" that forced Mafia author to remove donor benefits?`
`20:03.20`	`zenx1`	`lol never heard of anything like that`
`20:03.24`	`zenx1`	`any thread about it?`
`20:03.33`	`muzzy`	`http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/4756-Donations`
`20:03.41`	`muzzy`	`happened back in march, it seems`
`20:03.58`	`zenx1`	`wow that really sux imo`
`20:04.08`	`zenx1`	`I think they should allow it...`
`20:04.15`	`muzzy`	`i'm interested in the issue of maps selling in-game rewards for real money, and this case seems to be the only action blizzard has taken. there are no official policies whatsoever (or i cant find any)`
`20:04.41`	`muzzy`	`so, i was wondering if anyone knew any details. i.e. what exactly was the legal issue`
`20:05.25`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Exaken (~kvirc@a205004.upc-a.chello.nl)`
`20:05.47`	`muzzy`	`i mean, they still allowed to keep donor recognition and donors were given points to compensate, so they basically got to keep the donor benefits they had purchased`
`20:06.07`	`zenx1`	`well I would assume it would be mentioned in terms of use...we could ask blizzard staff too if they know anything once they come here again`
`20:06.10`	`muzzy`	`but i cant find any details anywhere regarding this fine line of what's okay and what isn't`
`20:06.23`	`zenx1`	`but if darkreveant says so I would assume its not allowed....`
`20:06.25`	`muzzy`	`oh, blizzard staff visits this channel sometimes?`
`20:06.30`	`zenx1`	`yes`
`20:06.38`	`zenx1`	`but they only know about the editor most likely`
`20:06.48`	`muzzy`	`mmmm`
`20:06.49`	`zenx1`	`no the legal issues`
`20:07.03`	`Fate`	`http://www.abload.de/img/terrain016k9uya.jpg`
`20:07.06`	`muzzy`	`well, this is partially related to GetPlayerHandle() api and its use`
`20:07.31`	`muzzy`	`i dont think i ever saw documentation about why exactly the api was added and what it's supposed to be used for`
`20:08.12`	`muzzy`	`it enables player blacklists and other unequal treatment of players, so i would've expected there to be some kind of policy of what is okay and what isn't`
`20:08.30`	`Eiviyn`	`I don't get the legal junk`
`20:08.36`	`Eiviyn`	`They never cared with WC3`
`20:09.11`	`muzzy`	`well, i never played custom maps in WC3, but i understand they weren't in control of the distribution channel back then`
`20:09.27`	`Eiviyn`	`They were`
`20:09.33`	`Eiviyn`	`WC3 was the distribution channel`
`20:09.47`	`zenx1`	`Still pretty weird why you arent allowed to do such things...`
`20:09.56`	`muzzy`	`right now, if map author adds someone to a blacklist, that person can never play the map again, even private games. was it like this in WC3 too?`
`20:10.04`	`muzzy`	`i thought in wc3 people downloaded the maps themselves :o`
`20:10.06`	`Eiviyn`	`Yes`
`20:10.16`	`muzzy`	`interesting`
`20:10.22`	`Eiviyn`	`They did download them, but they can't play them without wc3`
`20:10.35`	`muzzy`	`yes, obviously, but could they still play older versions of the map?`
`20:10.53`	`Eiviyn`	`Don't see why that's relevent`
`20:11.15`	`Eiviyn`	`Wasn't until Garena was released that Blizzard lost control of WC3 maps`
`20:11.25`	`Eiviyn`	`But even before then`
`20:11.35`	`Eiviyn`	`I can't recall anyone being "contacted for legal reasons"`
`20:11.38`	`muzzy`	`well, let's say version 1 is free for everyone, and version 2 bans player X. Can X still download version 1 and keep playing it or not?`
`20:11.49`	`Eiviyn`	`And there were some pretty offensive maps`
`20:11.52`	`muzzy`	`in sc2, you cant play the older versions, so map author holds incredible power over players`
`20:12.16`	`Eiviyn`	`Yes you could, but again, I don't see how that's relevent`
`20:12.34`	`Eiviyn`	`Banning players from maps is such a minor point that I doubt anyone would care`
`20:13.01`	`muzzy`	`it goes with the in-game rewards ... everyone is forced to play the version of the map that map author chooses to make them play`
`20:13.08`	`Totservis`	`thx to Scorp, now i got an idea how to switch between players' cameras ^^`
`20:13.21`	`muzzy`	`the player base can't stop playing a version they deem unfair`
`20:13.37`	`zenx1`	`well think its also authors right as he has made the map to take it out or update it or whatever`
`20:13.52`	`Eiviyn`	`99% of the time people would host the most recent version anyway`
`20:14.05`	`Eiviyn`	`Besides as a mapper I wouldn't want you playing old versions`
`20:14.19`	`muzzy`	`the banned people would play the older versions where they aren't banned :)`
`20:14.28`	`JademusSreg`	`The most secure ban one can manage is by updating the map so it identifies the player account handle. Would take a player handle spoofer to circumvent, and that would likely get one disconnected or banned from bnet, anyway.`
`20:14.46`	`Eiviyn`	`Is there any other way to ban a player even?`
`20:15.08`	`JademusSreg`	`Not really; bank-based ban systems are so easily circumvented.`
`20:15.21`	`zenx1`	`check name of player :E`
`20:15.30`	`JademusSreg`	`Can't compare text.`
`20:15.39`	`JademusSreg`	`OR rather, can't compare text content.`
`20:15.48`	`muzzy`	`bans are just one side of the coin though, i'm more interested in the issue regarding sale of in-game things... which is kinda connected to this`
`20:15.49`	`JademusSreg`	`Text comparisons compare references.`
`20:15.52`	`Eiviyn`	`Can't convert text to string which is needed to ban by name`
`20:16.03`	`zenx1`	`interesting`
`20:16.26`	`muzzy`	`basically, i dont want to play with people who buy in-game advantages. but do i have a choice? do i have right?`
`20:16.26`	`JademusSreg`	`muz, you can't sell in-map things. Ask DarkRev.`
`20:16.53`	`zenx1`	`didnt you give admin rights to some people on cycles?`
`20:16.57`	`zenx1`	`is it just trough chat code then`
`20:16.59`	`muzzy`	`JademusSreg: that's exactly what i want to know about. people are still selling in-map things`
`20:17.08`	`Eiviyn`	`Like who`
`20:17.24`	`zenx1`	`Wow sc2 actually has a black market xD`
`20:17.30`	`Eiviyn`	`I don't understand the vehemence behind curbstomping people trying to make a profit off their maps`
`20:17.35`	`Eiviyn`	`I mean`
`20:17.39`	`muzzy`	`recently, MineralZ Evolution (EU) started selling level 91 and final archons`
`20:17.39`	`Eiviyn`	`It promotes competition`
`20:17.51`	`Eiviyn`	`Resulting in better maps for players`
`20:17.59`	`muzzy`	`the other US version of MineralZ Evolution apparently sold stuff too before`
`20:18.13`	`Eiviyn`	`And I'm pretty sure Blizzard benefits from having more people play sc2, somehow, probably, maybe`
`20:18.22`	`Eiviyn`	`I mean`
`20:18.24`	`muzzy`	`profit is okay, but treating players differently based on it is not`
`20:18.40`	`Eiviyn`	`Well whatever that's subjective`
`20:18.51`	`Eiviyn`	`Squad TD had an advert on the loading screen and was told to remove it`
`20:19.01`	`muzzy`	`do you know all the free2play MMOs out there? they're designed to be really annoying and painful to play unless you pay a little bit of money`
`20:19.16`	`muzzy`	`i dont want to see something like that in sc2`
`20:19.20`	`Eiviyn`	`Yes that's because MMOs don't make themselves`
`20:19.30`	`muzzy`	`maps that are designed to require hundreds of hours of play until you can match people who paid 5 euros`
`20:19.34`	`Khalint`	`nor do they fund their bandwidth and storage with magic`
`20:19.52`	`zenx1`	`I actually think DLC is best way for marketplace to work`
`20:19.55`	`zenx1`	`if there was a system for that`
`20:20.00`	`XenoX101`	`does anyone here know how I can properly localize my map?`
`20:20.04`	`XenoX101`	`Blizzard's awful system doesn't work`
`20:20.06`	`Eiviyn`	`Don't need to`
`20:20.07`	`Eiviyn`	`It does`
`20:20.10`	`muzzy`	`if blizzard authorizes it, it's a different thing`
`20:20.20`	`XenoX101`	`then why are people complaining about descriptions being missing`
`20:20.27`	`Totservis`	`Jade, i am just curious, who is Hoboleader? :D`
`20:20.29`	`Eiviyn`	`You messed up`
`20:20.30`	`Eiviyn`	`Unmess up`
`20:20.36`	`Eiviyn`	`It localizes by default`
`20:20.41`	`JademusSreg`	`Hoboleader is a troll I punished.`
`20:20.47`	`XenoX101`	`I messed up? how?`
`20:20.56`	`XenoX101`	`what could I possibly have done to mess it up`
`20:20.56`	`JademusSreg`	`That's why his in-game name is Trolled From Above, and he can't chat.`
`20:21.05`	`zenx1`	`eiviyn is just trolling, look forums for a fix`
`20:21.14`	`zenx1`	`there are threads of localization`
`20:21.24`	`XenoX101`	`I'm looking, cant find anything`
`20:21.27`	`zenx1`	`my local went haywire after transferring from beta to 1.5`
`20:21.28`	`XenoX101`	`everything applies to pre-1.5`
`20:21.31`	`Eiviyn`	Press Ctrl + `
`20:21.35`	`muzzy`	`so ... does DarkRevenant visit this place often?`
`20:21.37`	`Eiviyn`	`You altered something in that menu`
`20:22.10`	`XenoX101`	`should I set it to have seperate text or not`
`20:22.16`	`Totservis`	`did he tell you his account handler or you catched him ingame somehow so you received in your bank his handle? =)`
`20:22.18`	`XenoX101`	`pre-1.5 if I set it to not have seperate text`
`20:22.24`	`XenoX101`	`then none of the other locales would have anything`
`20:22.33`	`XenoX101`	`it'd be blank tooltips everywhere`
`20:22.40`	`XenoX101`	`so I have all of them checked now`
`20:22.46`	`Eiviyn`	`Map -> Locale`
`20:22.54`	`XenoX101`	`yes thats what I'm talking about`
`20:23.08`	`Eiviyn`	`Does it just say "English (US)"?`
`20:23.11`	`Eiviyn`	`And only that?`
`20:23.16`	`XenoX101`	`did you read what I just wrote`
`20:23.22`	`Eiviyn`	`No`
`20:23.24`	`Eiviyn`	`Yes/no`
`20:23.26`	`XenoX101`	`obviously`
`20:23.31`	`XenoX101`	`I have them all checked`
`20:23.40`	`Eiviyn`	`heh`
`20:23.41`	`muzzy`	`tot, the account handles can be retrieved from any replay file`
`20:23.42`	`Eiviyn`	`That's why`
`20:23.42`	`ckSynergy`	`anyone know of a way to order a unit, thats been created by an effect, to turn to face the origin target?`
`20:23.47`	`Eiviyn`	`I told you that you messed something up`
`20:23.48`	`XenoX101`	`but pre-1.5`
`20:23.51`	`Eiviyn`	`Untick them all`
`20:23.53`	`XenoX101`	`when they were not checked`
`20:23.59`	`XenoX101`	`there were no tooltips for the other locales`
`20:24.01`	`XenoX101`	`only for US`
`20:24.09`	`Eiviyn`	`And now it's changed`
`20:24.14`	`JademusSreg`	`Tot, you can get a person's account handle from their bnet profile url, for one thing.`
`20:24.15`	`XenoX101`	`so are you sure that's correct?`
`20:24.15`	`Eiviyn`	`Also read the header on that locale selection`
`20:24.19`	`Eiviyn`	`Yes`
`20:24.26`	`JademusSreg`	`So you can ban people you've never seen.`
`20:24.26`	`XenoX101`	`well then`
`20:24.36`	`XenoX101`	`I'll probably be back here in 10 minutes`
`20:24.40`	`XenoX101`	`telling you you're wrong`
`20:24.42`	`XenoX101`	`but okay`
`20:24.43`	`XenoX101`	`we'll see`
`20:24.46`	`JademusSreg`	`Additionally, I have moderators with a command to get handle, and a list of people they report.`
`20:24.50`	`XenoX101`	`thanks`
`20:24.53`	`XenoX101`	`for now`
`20:25.09`	`JademusSreg`	`Well, had, past tense, since I'm not working on that shit anymore, haha.`
`20:25.19`	`Eiviyn`	`There's already spinoffs`
`20:25.27`	`JademusSreg`	`Cool. Glad to hear.`
`20:25.31`	`Eiviyn`	`With just the name changed`
`20:25.43`	`Eiviyn`	`Are you still mapping?`
`20:25.58`	`JademusSreg`	`Nope. Working on my own shit now.`
`20:26.44`	`Eiviyn`	`But back to the sponsor thing`
`20:26.52`	`Eiviyn`	`STD banned for having an advert`
`20:26.58`	`Eiviyn`	`On the loading screen`
`20:26.59`	`Eiviyn`	`Okay`
`20:27.05`	`Eiviyn`	`But those melee maps`
`20:27.12`	`Eiviyn`	`With out-of-game sponsors like Steelseries`
`20:27.20`	`JademusSreg`	`The short version is that Photon Cycles got me into the 1.5 previews and tests, chat with the devs, the devs refered me to the global talent acquisition, and they asked if I was interested in applying for the technical assistant position. Didn't get it, but the experience overall I found motivating.`
`20:27.36`	`Eiviyn`	`Also have Steelseries logos on their screen and even in description`
`20:28.10`	`Eiviyn`	`Who got it?`
`20:28.12`	`Eiviyn`	`Did you find out?`
`20:28.28`	`Eiviyn`	`They seemed to be scouting talent from mappers at least`
`20:28.34`	`JademusSreg`	`Dunno. I'm confident whoever did probably deserved it. And lived closer to California.`
`20:28.35`	`JademusSreg`	`Haha`
`20:29.00`	`Eiviyn`	`Hope it's the guy who made Desert Strike`
`20:29.02`	`Eiviyn`	`What a hero`
`20:29.16`	`*** join/#sc2mapster TheAlmaity (5d8b17d2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.139.23.210)`
`20:29.17`	`Eiviyn`	`Also`
`20:29.23`	`Eiviyn`	`"global talent acquisition"`
`20:29.32`	`Eiviyn`	`"And lived closer to California."`
`20:29.59`	`TheAlmaity`	`Eiviyn is talking about something that at first glance seems like a rant. What did I miss?`
`20:30.13`	`JademusSreg`	`Desert strike is like a macromanagement-oriented dota. Or castle wars.`
`20:30.22`	`Eiviyn`	`Nah it's a card game`
`20:30.26`	`Eiviyn`	`You play your cards`
`20:30.38`	`Eiviyn`	`Your opponent plays their cards`
`20:30.47`	`Eiviyn`	`You throw your arms up in the air and spam lurkers`
`20:30.53`	`JademusSreg`	`And those cards run across the battlefield and kill other cards.`
`20:31.01`	`Eiviyn`	`Yes`
`20:31.05`	`JademusSreg`	`It's basically Alice In Wonderland like that.`
`20:31.08`	`TheAlmaity`	`Eiviyn's description is closer`
`20:31.08`	`Eiviyn`	`If you played better cards, you win`
`20:31.14`	`TheAlmaity`	`Its more Turn Based than Real Time`
`20:31.22`	`JademusSreg`	`Anyway, bbl`
`20:31.42`	`TheAlmaity`	`Shit happens in real time, but players only have a "turn" in which they can do their own actions.`
`20:32.03`	`muzzy`	`sooo ... there's another topic i wanted to discuss: bank file editing :)`
`20:32.33`	`muzzy`	`i hear blizzard has never taken any action whatsoever against people who edit their stats in custom maps, or even against people who encourage doing so?`
`20:32.44`	`Khalint`	`i would imagine so`
`20:32.49`	`Khalint`	`how could you even prove it`
`20:32.52`	`TheAlmaity`	`Don't see how they could`
`20:32.54`	`muzzy`	`it'd be a support nightmare for them, yes`
`20:33.05`	`Khalint`	`they just need server side banks`
`20:33.05`	`Eiviyn`	`They added signatures to bank files`
`20:33.10`	`Eiviyn`	`But signatures are pretty useless`
`20:33.15`	`Eiviyn`	`Already cracked`
`20:33.19`	`muzzy`	`server side banks aren't enough, if the code is still executed on client side`
`20:33.20`	`TheAlmaity`	`they keep out your average idiot`
`20:33.30`	`Khalint`	`and you can simply have x amount of space on your account for it and you can delete them from a menu`
`20:33.35`	`Khalint`	`eh`
`20:33.42`	`Khalint`	`theres only so much you can do`
`20:33.45`	`Eiviyn`	`Well`
`20:33.47`	`Totservis`	`"you can get a person's account handle from their bnet profile url" - Oh, God! Someone could ban me in these two years of SC2 O_O`
`20:33.50`	`Khalint`	`server side banks would help alot`
`20:34.00`	`Eiviyn`	`1 WoW char stores like, hundreds of integers`
`20:34.02`	`muzzy`	`TheAlmaity: yes, indeed ... i was surprised to learn how effective they are against average players, i had completely overestimated what an average player can do`
`20:34.15`	`Eiviyn`	`You can have 50 chars`
`20:34.45`	`Eiviyn`	`And the server upkeep for a WoW player is like, $2.5/month, including averaged tech support staff saleries`
`20:34.46`	`TheAlmaity`	`all banks up to now are under 8 KB big (because the limit was only increased recently). How many banks can you put into half of your bank space?`
`20:35.00`	`Totservis`	`Eiviyn, what spinoffs? O_o`
`20:35.27`	`Eiviyn`	`So for server space it's probably practically 0`
`20:35.35`	`muzzy`	`if the servers also executed all the map scripts to make sure the banks got updated correctly, then we'd have a solution`
`20:35.44`	`Eiviyn`	`I doubt server space is the reason behind not having server side banks`
`20:35.48`	`muzzy`	`but i dont think blizzard is willing to shell out the cpu time required to do that`
`20:36.21`	`Khalint`	`they could create a server client instance for maps`
`20:36.29`	`TheAlmaity`	`Dont servers already execute map script? I always understood that was the reason why the delay affected WASD move`
`20:36.31`	`Khalint`	`where map makers could designate server/client stuff`
`20:36.41`	`Khalint`	`yeah it is authoritative`
`20:36.42`	`muzzy`	`server side banks would be pretty pointless if clients could write to them anyway. it'd just bring on another wave of map cache replacement attacks to make the clients execute different map`
`20:36.54`	`muzzy`	`what?`
`20:37.04`	`TheAlmaity`	`servers are in control of map script`
`20:37.09`	`muzzy`	`since when?`
`20:37.10`	`Khalint`	`the delay in maps from wasd and such is cause there is a server compnent`
`20:37.12`	`Eiviyn`	`Nonsense, my £100 harddrive could store 100,000,000 maxed bank files`
`20:37.15`	`TheAlmaity`	`otherwise WASD move wouldn't seem as laggy as it is`
`20:37.16`	`Khalint`	`since always`
`20:37.38`	`muzzy`	`that's not possible, unless they simply ignored banks ...`
`20:37.43`	`TheAlmaity`	`?`
`20:37.56`	`muzzy`	`before the bank signature was cracked, it was attacked by replacing the map file in cache when starting a game`
`20:37.57`	`Eiviyn`	`It's probably something to do with writing to the server mid-game or something`
`20:38.12`	`Eiviyn`	`That's the standard way of breaking banks`
`20:38.16`	`Eiviyn`	`Crack the map`
`20:38.18`	`Eiviyn`	`Run it`
`20:38.28`	`Eiviyn`	`Create your own bank without even looking at how the code is set up`
`20:38.47`	`Eiviyn`	`Add some basic trigger like "+1000 Mafia points"`
`20:38.57`	`Eiviyn`	`Then have the map save your new bank file for you`
`20:39.03`	`muzzy`	`well, it's a little different now, because cache replacement isn't needed`
`20:39.10`	`Eiviyn`	`Circumventing whatever encryption you use`
`20:39.23`	`muzzy`	`you can download map, run, then recreate just the signature`
`20:39.25`	`TheSkunk__`	`Uhh.. I somehow have two units magically linked`
`20:39.34`	`TheSkunk__`	`Changing the name of one unit changes the name of the other one o.0`
`20:39.40`	`muzzy`	`before, when the signature couldn't be generated, you had to make the client believe it had the correct version of the map when playing on bnet`
`20:39.42`	`TheSkunk__`	`Changing armor stat on one changes it on the other`
`20:39.43`	`Eiviyn`	`There's little point encrypting bank files beyond detering casual hackers`
`20:39.47`	`muzzy`	`and the client would actually run the incorrect one`
`20:39.49`	`TheAlmaity`	`doesn't bank signature take in consideration author and map it came from? I heard it does, but I dont know whether it was true`
`20:39.50`	`TheSkunk__`	`Any idea how?`
`20:40.10`	`TheAlmaity`	`maybe you based one on the other`
`20:40.16`	`muzzy`	`TheAlmaity: yes, it considers author handler, player handle and bank name`
`20:40.18`	`TheAlmaity`	`weird duplication issues or something`
`20:40.37`	`TheAlmaity`	`yea, so if it considers author handle, you cant use the crack-the-map method anymore`
`20:40.41`	`muzzy`	`basically it concatenates all strings from the xml file in addition to those 3 things and takes sha1 hash of it`
`20:40.46`	`TheAlmaity`	`because it wouldn't be the same author, and the key would return invalid`
`20:41.12`	`Eiviyn`	`Of course not TheAlmaity`
`20:41.18`	`muzzy`	`crack-the-map works if the bankfile is proper in all other ways except signature`
`20:41.20`	`Eiviyn`	`Create a map in the editor`
`20:41.30`	`Eiviyn`	`Make some generic bank file trigger`
`20:41.32`	`Eiviyn`	`With signature`
`20:41.33`	`muzzy`	`it took me 2 hours to write the signature generator in javascript today :)`
`20:41.35`	`Eiviyn`	`Save your map`
`20:41.38`	`Eiviyn`	`Rename it`
`20:41.44`	`Eiviyn`	`Put it onto a second PC`
`20:42.02`	`Eiviyn`	`Log onto someone else's editor or whatever you feel like`
`20:42.03`	`Eiviyn`	`Run it`
`20:42.18`	`Eiviyn`	`It only checks player handles afaik`
`20:42.24`	`*** join/#sc2mapster tordy (627449b7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.116.73.183)`
`20:42.27`	`tordy`	`hello friends and good evening`
`20:42.35`	`tordy`	`zeldarules28`
`20:42.36`	`TheAlmaity`	`evenin`
`20:42.39`	`zenx1`	`I wonder if bank safety is really that big of a deal...most maps only use stats recording anyway...`
`20:42.40`	`TheAlmaity`	`he aint here`
`20:42.45`	`TheAlmaity`	`he'll be back soonish`
`20:42.45`	`tordy`	`TheAlmaity`
`20:42.55`	`zenx1`	`I dont even care that much for my RPG, if they want to skip the experience...well then they do`
`20:43.03`	`muzzy`	`zenx1, and that's a good thing. yet many maps give in-game benefits based on bank file contents`
`20:43.11`	`tordy`	`what are ewe talkin bout?`
`20:43.12`	`tordy`	`banks!?`
`20:43.15`	`TheSkunk__`	`Not sure what to do; resetting units to defualts didn't fix anything..`
`20:43.16`	`TheAlmaity`	`zenx1: it would matter in my and Zelda's rule, since... well.. pokemon`
`20:43.36`	`Eiviyn`	`One unit is set as the other's parent`
`20:43.38`	`tordy`	`TheAlmaity i read the topic`
`20:43.39`	`Eiviyn`	`Just delete one unit`
`20:43.42`	`zenx1`	`still...I personally want to actualyl play the game`
`20:43.43`	`tordy`	`was plannin to make my own pokemon-like map as well`
`20:43.44`	`muzzy`	`i suppose i'll link my little toy since i'm a little bit proud of it, even though you might not approve: http://hack.fi/~muzzy/tools/mineralz/`
`20:43.54`	`zenx1`	`I think they mostly miss out themselves if they hack banks`
`20:43.55`	`muzzy`	`full javascript-only bankfile signature generator :)`
`20:43.57`	`Totservis`	`tordy, yeah, we plan a bank robbery`
`20:43.58`	`tordy`	`when jmanv stopped continuing his`
`20:44.07`	`muzzy`	`for a specific map only`
`20:44.30`	`muzzy`	`so, basically, what happened was that the map author started selling the stats for real money`
`20:44.37`	`tordy`	`altho it'll be much different`
`20:44.47`	`tordy`	`since you guys are already making a closer pokemon-like map`
`20:44.54`	`Eiviyn`	`So a guy who spent hundreds of hours making something entertaining for other people`
`20:44.55`	`muzzy`	`i criticized his plan on his forums, he responded by deleting my posts. i continued discussing it in private, and he responded by deleting my whole account`
`20:44.58`	`Eiviyn`	`In his free time`
`20:45.02`	`tordy`	`only shared ideas it'll have is really the types of stats and unit collection`
`20:45.14`	`Eiviyn`	`And you feel morally obligated to stop him from getting a return on his time investment`
`20:45.30`	`muzzy`	`Eiviyn: i'm perfectly OK him asking for donations`
`20:45.32`	`Eiviyn`	`I mean really`
`20:45.37`	`Eiviyn`	`If I mow your lawn`
`20:45.46`	`muzzy`	`however, it takes like hundreds of hours, literally hundreds of hours to earn those things in-game`
`20:45.50`	`tordy`	`what other maps have donator benefits?`
`20:45.51`	`Eiviyn`	`Out of the goodness of my heart, or shear boredom`
`20:45.56`	`muzzy`	`and he sells them for 5 euros`
`20:46.03`	`Eiviyn`	`And repeat that for hundreds of hours worth of mowing`
`20:46.15`	`Eiviyn`	`Then say "Hey, can I have £5 for a beer?"`
`20:46.27`	`Eiviyn`	`Given I spent hundreds of my free time mowing your shit`
`20:46.32`	`TheAlmaity`	`I'd say that's one fucking expensive beer.`
`20:46.33`	`Eiviyn`	`Is that wrong?`
`20:47.00`	`muzzy`	`Eiviyn: that's different. he wasn't just asking for donations, go look: http://mineralzevolution.space-forums.net/`
`20:47.02`	`TheAlmaity`	`I could buy a pizza and 3l of nestea for that money.`
`20:47.09`	`muzzy`	`he made entire subforum called "Buy levels, skins or contents"`
`20:47.13`	`zenx1`	`if someone wants to buy stuff for minerals let them fucking buy it :D`
`20:47.15`	`zenx1`	`gheez`
`20:47.35`	`TheAlmaity`	`genius idea: I'll just sell rare/unobtainable pokemon!`
`20:47.38`	`muzzy`	`the game is severely hostile towards new players with low stats`
`20:47.47`	`TheAlmaity`	`and then everyone will hate me!`
`20:47.48`	`Eiviyn`	`As is everything in life`
`20:47.51`	`muzzy`	`so hostile, that many experienced players immediately quit when they see people with low stats`
`20:48.12`	`Eiviyn`	`Name one thing in life that isn't hostile towards inexperience`
`20:48.18`	`Eiviyn`	`Bar school`
`20:48.31`	`muzzy`	`this isn't about inexperience`
`20:48.38`	`muzzy`	`people with low stats need to use different strategies`
`20:48.39`	`zenx1`	`yes and it just applies to everyone`
`20:48.49`	`zenx1`	`in wc3 you would get kicked since you could actually kick`
`20:48.51`	`muzzy`	`people with high stats have special attacks that can kill 5 bosses in a single shot`
`20:48.54`	`TheAlmaity`	`also, tordy, not ignoring you, just dont really know what to comment :p good luck with your map, if you have questions about ours (Even if they're technical, like "How did you make that attack look that way"), feel free to ask`
`20:48.55`	`zenx1`	`which would be better`
`20:49.04`	`zenx1`	`so you dont have to fucking start the game to see people suck`
`20:49.12`	`tordy`	`beep`
`20:49.21`	`zenx1`	`Im still waiting for my "get bank stats to lobby" feature`
`20:49.32`	`tordy`	`^`
`20:49.34`	`zenx1`	`that would be so goooooood`
`20:49.45`	`TheAlmaity`	`suggest it on the bnet forums`
`20:49.52`	`muzzy`	`anyway, this is why i was asking about the Mafia case`
`20:49.55`	`zenx1`	`they wont read EU forums anyway`
`20:50.01`	`TheAlmaity`	`they do.`
`20:50.08`	`muzzy`	`I'd like to know what exactly is the legal issue that prevented the donor rewards, how would it apply here`
`20:50.12`	`TheAlmaity`	`since... well... around the same time Deletarius andArtestru came here`
`20:50.12`	`tordy`	`altho global and server-side banks will be #1`
`20:50.28`	`zenx1`	`and even more amazing would be then have game variants where only certain level people could join`
`20:50.36`	`Eiviyn`	`nfi what was said to DR`
`20:50.36`	`zenx1`	`that has been my dream for long...`
`20:50.55`	`tordy`	`ELO rating based matchmaking`
`20:50.58`	`muzzy`	`mmmmm`
`20:51.00`	`tordy`	`that would be the bomb`
`20:51.06`	`muzzy`	`zenx, that's interesting too`
`20:51.14`	`Eiviyn`	`Unless your map is in the top 4`
`20:51.15`	`muzzy`	`that'd solve part of the problem certainly`
`20:51.21`	`Eiviyn`	`ELO rated matches wouldn't work`
`20:51.27`	`Eiviyn`	`The wait would be insane`
`20:51.28`	`*** join/#sc2mapster tordy (627449b7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.116.73.183)`
`20:51.38`	`zeldarules28`	`somebody called me :P`
`20:51.44`	`TheAlmaity`	`they would work if people were willing to queue for 10 hours`
`20:52.04`	`TheSkunk__`	`Zelda, 07tordy01 is the guilty party`
`20:52.07`	`tordy`	`:[`
`20:52.21`	`tordy`	`it really only works if your map is really popular`
`20:52.22`	`zeldarules28`	`Not gunna read this entire thing :P What's going on?`
`20:52.23`	`Eiviyn`	`Anyway`
`20:52.26`	`tordy`	`and has a lot of players matchmaking`
`20:52.29`	`Eiviyn`	`I don't care about donations and all that`
`20:52.37`	`Eiviyn`	`What bothers me is the stranglehold over maps`
`20:52.53`	`Eiviyn`	`Nobody cared during WC3`
`20:52.59`	`Eiviyn`	`It's a new feature of SC2`
`20:53.09`	`zeldarules28`	`Mafia was taken down temporarily, not because of the donations though. At least officially.`
`20:53.19`	`tordy`	`what they say`
`20:53.23`	`tordy`	`what DR say`
`20:53.30`	`muzzy`	`the recent jew thing? i dont talk about that, i want to know about the thing back earlier`
`20:53.40`	`Eiviyn`	`Yeah the jew thing was fucking stupid`
`20:53.44`	`zeldarules28`	`The 'die like a jew' and tons of other stuff like that`
`20:53.45`	`Eiviyn`	`Glad it got removed for that`
`20:53.49`	`zeldarules28`	`That was just dumb of him`
`20:53.53`	`zeldarules28`	`It'll be back though`
`20:53.59`	`muzzy`	`zeldarules28: huh?`
`20:54.06`	`zeldarules28`	`Its not permabanned`
`20:54.08`	`tordy`	`isnt it already back on the front page?`
`20:54.24`	`zeldarules28`	`I dont know if it's back yet. Its either back now or will be`
`20:54.26`	`muzzy`	`oh, the map will be back, yea`
`20:54.27`	`muzzy`	`not the jew feature :D`
`20:54.29`	`muzzy`	`anyway ....`
`20:54.32`	`zeldarules28`	`no, yeah, thasts gone`
`20:54.35`	`zenx1`	`lol`
`20:54.37`	`muzzy`	`i want to know about the event that happened back in march`
`20:54.41`	`TheAlmaity`	`be back in a few`
`20:54.44`	`muzzy`	`when blizzard forced DR to remove donor rewards`
`20:54.47`	`tordy`	`shared energy pool, im usin that too :[`
`20:54.48`	`muzzy`	`do you know anything about that?`
`20:54.51`	`zeldarules28`	`Yes`
`20:54.54`	`zenx1`	`I wonder if they would even allow "escape from gay heaven" the most amazing map of wc3`
`20:55.00`	`tordy`	`because having so much PP doesnt seem to work well in multiplayer`
`20:55.07`	`muzzy`	`what exactly was the legal issue there?`
`20:55.13`	`zeldarules28`	`Basically he was taking donations and offering in-game benefits`
`20:55.20`	`zeldarules28`	`Nothing unfair, but custom skins for donors`
`20:55.20`	`tordy`	`so having something to prevent spam of skills and encourage swapping`
`20:55.21`	`tordy`	`is good`
`20:55.28`	`zeldarules28`	`So you just look cooler if you donated`
`20:55.49`	`tordy`	`so donation benefits are allowed?`
`20:55.52`	`muzzy`	`yep, but ... the donation page now says blizzard brought a legal issue to his attention`
`20:55.52`	`zeldarules28`	`Blizzard contacted him and told him that, while they had no issue with donations being accepted, he could not reward donors with stuff in game`
`20:55.55`	`tordy`	`if they dont affect gameplay?`
`20:56.04`	`tordy`	`oh`
`20:56.11`	`tordy`	`so donations are allowed`
`20:56.13`	`muzzy`	`i.e. why he cannot reward donors, and if there is some policy about this`
`20:56.14`	`tordy`	`finally a confirmation!`
`20:56.29`	`*** join/#sc2mapster peq (~media@95-90-44-27-dynip.superkabel.de)`
`20:56.37`	`tordy`	`donations with no benefits, which im all for`
`20:56.43`	`muzzy`	`i mean, there is still some donor recognition in place i believe?`
`20:56.44`	`zenx1`	`its most likely ANY reward wheter it gives benefit or not`
`20:56.47`	`zeldarules28`	`Donations with no effects at ALL`
`20:56.54`	`zeldarules28`	`Even if they are cosmetic, still not okay`
`20:57.00`	`zenx1`	`yes`
`20:57.03`	`zeldarules28`	`Now technically, donations might be entirely illegal`
`20:57.06`	`zenx1`	`stupid, but nothign you can do about it`
`20:57.16`	`muzzy`	`mmmm`
`20:57.16`	`zeldarules28`	`But the lawyer that contacted DR said that they did not have issue with em`
`20:57.22`	`muzzy`	`okay`
`20:57.23`	`tordy`	`probichuuuu`
`20:57.24`	`zeldarules28`	`just the in-game stuff`
`20:57.33`	`zeldarules28`	`Lv 99 Probichus, 50 bucks each`
`20:57.36`	`muzzy`	`so, donations must not be rewarded any way whatsoever. i wish there was a blue post about this`
`20:57.36`	`zeldarules28`	`^.^`
`20:57.47`	`zeldarules28`	`The problem is that tons of stuff is illegal, technically`
`20:58.00`	`zeldarules28`	`For example- the reason nobody has said "Yes, wow models are totally legit"`
`20:58.13`	`zeldarules28`	`Theyre never gunna give you that clear-cut 'thats okay' answer`
`20:58.27`	`zeldarules28`	`Because they, like any company, need bullets in the chamber just in case they go to court about something`
`20:59.12`	`muzzy`	`so, um, who are you btw? like, i want to know how reliable this information is that donations must not have even cosmetic effects :)`
`20:59.26`	`Khalint`	`ffs i keep typing cooper ingots instead of copper ingots ><`
`20:59.26`	`zeldarules28`	`I'm...zeldarules28`
`20:59.41`	`zeldarules28`	`The same zeldarule28 as on mapster`
`21:00.00`	`muzzy`	`unfortunately i'm not really a mapster user, i only came here looking for some answers :D`
`21:00.07`	`zeldarules28`	`:O`
`21:00.12`	`zeldarules28`	`Ah, right`
`21:00.17`	`zeldarules28`	`Well I'm one of the staff members there`
`21:00.27`	`zeldarules28`	`Dont work for blizzard, of course, so nothing I say is "offical"`
`21:00.35`	`muzzy`	`ah, i see, okay`
`21:00.50`	`zeldarules28`	`Im also awesome ^.^`
`21:00.54`	`muzzy`	`that's good enough for me :)`
`21:00.55`	`zeldarules28`	`Just so you know`
`21:01.21`	`muzzy`	`now i just have to think about how to make my next move ... i want to make fredxor stop selling in-game rewards for MineralZ Evolution :/`
`21:01.37`	`zeldarules28`	`lol`
`21:01.53`	`zeldarules28`	`Heres the thing though, It depends on the map, I think`
`21:02.08`	`muzzy`	`in case you missed the story, i already tried to discuss it with him and now he's banned me from his forums, ignored me on battlenet, removed my name from "thanks to" list on his map, etc...`
`21:02.09`	`zeldarules28`	`They cant send lawyers to every single map, so don't go pushing for maps to get banned >.>`
`21:02.19`	`zeldarules28`	`Really :P`
`21:02.27`	`zeldarules28`	`We want to be able to sell cosmetics ^.^`
`21:02.49`	`muzzy`	`so far my latest move has been this: http://hack.fi/~muzzy/tools/mineralz/`
`21:03.09`	`muzzy`	`to give the same archons and stats for everyone that he's selling`
`21:03.18`	`muzzy`	`but that's obviously an asshole move :p`
`21:03.23`	`zeldarules28`	`yeah no kidding >.>`
`21:03.29`	`zeldarules28`	`Thats not the way to go about it :/`
`21:03.37`	`muzzy`	`then again, they aren't worth anything if players can edit the bankfiles themselves`
`21:03.49`	`zeldarules28`	`Regardless, how'd you hack it?`
`21:04.05`	`muzzy`	`uh ... i just regen the signature`
`21:04.21`	`zeldarules28`	`Im building my own security for my map, that's all`
`21:04.32`	`zeldarules28`	`So its useful to know how people get around stuff`
`21:04.37`	`muzzy`	`the signature of bankfile is calculated by concatenating author id, user id, bank name, and then all strings from the bank`
`21:04.37`	`zeldarules28`	`He didn't encrypt it at all? O.o`
`21:04.38`	`zenx1`	`why do you even care? you scared of mineralz getting banned?`
`21:04.48`	`zeldarules28`	`me?`
`21:04.55`	`zenx1`	`no`
`21:04.56`	`muzzy`	`i care because until recently, MineralZ Evolution was the ONLY map i played`
`21:05.04`	`muzzy`	`actually, the only GAME i played at all`
`21:05.31`	`muzzy`	`i quit wow because it was depressing, same for diablo3, and yaddayadda ... i'd just play that map whenever i had free time i had to waste`
`21:05.35`	`zenx1`	`I still think its pretty lost cause to do anything about it. Blizzard will do it if they feel like it`
`21:05.36`	`muzzy`	`and now he's ruining it`
`21:05.46`	`zeldarules28`	`I think its good to see people make money off thier maps`
`21:05.54`	`zeldarules28`	`Legally, of course`
`21:06.02`	`muzzy`	`making money is okay, but treating players equally is not`
`21:06.11`	`zeldarules28`	`"treating players equally is not"`
`21:06.12`	`zeldarules28`	`:P`
`21:06.15`	`zenx1`	`it happends in other games too`
`21:06.19`	`muzzy`	`it takes a really boring coordinated 5+ hour game to get the ultimate archon reward, for example`
`21:06.23`	`muzzy`	`and he's asking 2 euros for it`
`21:06.31`	`zeldarules28`	`So you can get it in-game`
`21:06.31`	`muzzy`	`the 5+h game isn't even fun`
`21:06.40`	`muzzy`	`it requires 4 people to just gather requires and send to the 5th one`
`21:07.05`	`muzzy`	`yea, it can be earned in-game .. i already had it ages ago`
`21:07.15`	`muzzy`	`back when it required an 8 hour game to unlock`
`21:07.21`	`zenx1`	`I dont really like demands when you just play game other people made for free`
`21:07.31`	`zenx1`	`wheter its fair or not`
`21:07.32`	`muzzy`	`mmmm`
`21:07.42`	`TheSkunk__`	`Err...? Lots of actual games using free to play models have things that can be gained in-game but can also be paid for`
`21:07.46`	`zeldarules28`	`This is my perspective, legality aside`
`21:07.53`	`zeldarules28`	`Your getting our games for fre`
`21:07.54`	`zeldarules28`	`free*`
`21:07.57`	`muzzy`	`TheSkunk__: yes, free2play scheme`
`21:08.03`	`muzzy`	`however, i see this more as pay2win scheme`
`21:08.04`	`zeldarules28`	`I have no objection to microtransactions`
`21:08.14`	`zeldarules28`	`Again, its wierd because theyre sc2 mods and not stand alone`
`21:08.16`	`TheSkunk__`	`Play2win? I thought it was cosmetic, sorry`
`21:08.24`	`TheSkunk__`	`like an achievement or something`
`21:08.31`	`TheSkunk__`	`Either way, there are play2win games out there too :P`
`21:08.34`	`zeldarules28`	`Oh`
`21:08.36`	`muzzy`	`this isn't cosmetic, this is like ... -0.2 seconds off from harvest time`
`21:08.50`	`muzzy`	`and a special attack that kills everything in large area`
`21:08.58`	`zeldarules28`	`Im against p2w games but that's a bit hard to define w/o playing the game`
`21:09.20`	`Khalint`	`if frogster makes it its pay2win`
`21:09.25`	`Khalint`	`that much i can assure you`
`21:09.27`	`muzzy`	`anyway, recently there's been a trend that whenever there's someone with level 0 (new player), people just quit the game`
`21:09.40`	`muzzy`	`because no matter how good that 0 stat player is, he cannot perform good`
`21:09.42`	`TheSkunk__`	`Well, thats a scumbag thing to do IMO, but I don't really know if it is\should be illegal or not :P`
`21:09.51`	`zeldarules28`	`Yes`
`21:09.59`	`Khalint`	`people are scumbags`
`21:10.04`	`Khalint`	`such is life`
`21:10.05`	`zeldarules28`	`I hate censorship when it's not absolutely needed`
`21:10.14`	`muzzy`	`it usually takes around 5 games to get the game actually started`
`21:10.23`	`zeldarules28`	`Like I get that it's necessary for some stuff, of course, but too many restrictions is... meh`
`21:10.33`	`zenx1`	`btw I wonder if there is a difference between offering "donate to get stuff earlier than others"`
`21:10.36`	`zenx1`	`like pay2win`
`21:10.43`	`zeldarules28`	`yeah, lol`
`21:10.47`	`zenx1`	`mafia did some exclusive rewards right?`
`21:10.54`	`zeldarules28`	`Skins`
`21:10.54`	`zeldarules28`	`exclusively`
`21:11.04`	`zeldarules28`	`But they changed it to be based on progression now`
`21:11.12`	`zeldarules28`	`but the old donators got bonus 'xp' or whatever`
`21:11.19`	`zeldarules28`	`so they didnt have to unlock anything, they still kepot it`
`21:11.22`	`zeldarules28`	`kept*`
`21:11.28`	`zenx1`	`that could be pretty fair if they allowed donating like that`
`21:11.37`	`muzzy`	`fair?`
`21:11.42`	`zenx1`	`haha ;:D`
`21:11.43`	`zenx1`	`sure`
`21:11.45`	`zeldarules28`	`Its cosmetic`
`21:11.47`	`zeldarules28`	`lol`
`21:11.49`	`zeldarules28`	`It doesnt matter`
`21:11.58`	`muzzy`	`well, cosmetic things dont really annoy me`
`21:12.02`	`zeldarules28`	`Yeah`
`21:12.08`	`zeldarules28`	`LoL built an empire with skins O.o`
`21:12.14`	`zeldarules28`	`Regardless of anything else, there really should be a 'donate' button on the map`
`21:12.18`	`muzzy`	`but if i've invested, say, 20 hours into learning some game, and then i learn i need to pay to perform properly ... oh, or alternatively waste 100 hours`
`21:12.32`	`Khalint`	`then dont play?`
`21:12.37`	`zenx1`	`I cant even believe how peopel still continue to play those same maps...`
`21:12.38`	`Khalint`	`i mean its about value to you`
`21:12.59`	`muzzy`	`Khalint: yes, but i'd want to know about it beforehand when i make a choice to play or not to play`
`21:13.12`	`muzzy`	`if a map i've already played a lot turns into pay2win scam, i'm pissed`
`21:13.29`	`Khalint`	`well if you enjoyed your time`
`21:13.35`	`Khalint`	`did you really lose anything`
`21:13.43`	`Khalint`	`if its that bad make a clone that isnt pay2win`
`21:13.45`	`Khalint`	`:P`
`21:13.53`	`muzzy`	`heh`
`21:13.59`	`muzzy`	`i've actually been thinking of making a clone of it >_<`
`21:14.01`	`zeldarules28`	`brb`
`21:14.04`	`Khalint`	`do eet`
`21:14.15`	`Khalint`	`if it bothers you so much youre willing to go to the lengths youre talking about`
`21:14.20`	`Khalint`	`clone it and make it not pay2win`
`21:14.23`	`Khalint`	`people will like yours more`
`21:14.27`	`Khalint`	`and play yours`
`21:14.50`	`muzzy`	`haven't ever made maps though, but it cant be that hard. i just dont want to make identical clone, if i make one i want something a little bit original, and that's difficult too`
`21:15.11`	`Khalint`	`yeah`
`21:15.17`	`Khalint`	`mapping is pretty easy`
`21:15.20`	`muzzy`	`also, the MineralZ genre suffers heavily from the dynamic pathing issues and there's no way around it`
`21:15.22`	`Khalint`	`just takes time`
`21:15.47`	`muzzy`	`since the destructible rocks are dynamic bockers and a lot of them are needed...`
`21:15.58`	`Khalint`	`my map i may never finish but im having fun with it`
`21:16.17`	`Khalint`	`just finished importing my old item creation triggers into the user data`
`21:16.21`	`Hobrow`	`"cant be that hard" haha good one`
`21:16.42`	`Khalint`	`if you have a mind for coding/scripting mapping is easy`
`21:16.44`	`Khalint`	`just time consuming`
`21:18.12`	`muzzy`	`yea, i'm willing to go quite the lenghts for things i believe in... sigh`
`21:18.14`	`zeldarules28`	`Im terrible at data`
`21:18.29`	`zeldarules28`	`But triggers are so much better for me, they're more logical`
`21:18.40`	`zeldarules28`	`Like, if something is not working, I did something wrong, and I can fix it`
`21:18.46`	`zeldarules28`	`With data, it's just a mess for me ^.^`
`21:19.04`	`zeldarules28`	`Plus they're so similar to other languages`
`21:19.05`	`Hobrow`	`creating a good map is not easy`
`21:19.06`	`muzzy`	`for example, this whole issue of unfairness in maps etc ... i actually wrote a decompiler for galaxy script to analyze some map sources to see wtf they're doing`
`21:19.20`	`zeldarules28`	`>.>`
`21:19.23`	`Hobrow`	`otherwise there wouldnt be so much shit maps on bnet`
`21:19.42`	`zeldarules28`	`And yeah, you're not going to just make a popular map right off the bat with no prior experience`
`21:20.15`	`muzzy`	`complete galaxy-galaxy compiler that first breaks the source into basic blocks and flow graph and then rewrites the entire source, unmangling obfuscated variable names and yaddayadda ... but i didn't get to the juice parts with it`
`21:20.45`	`zeldarules28`	`you're a terrible person :D`
`21:20.56`	`zeldarules28`	`We spend so much time trying to prevent people from doing that to our maps >.>`
`21:21.00`	`zeldarules28`	`lolz`
`21:21.14`	`muzzy`	`i didn't want all the effort go to waste so i published that on some sc2 hacking forums too, but nobody knew how to use it`
`21:21.22`	`zeldarules28`	`How bout you dont do that`
`21:21.31`	`zeldarules28`	`Because it screws over legitimate maps :P`
`21:21.48`	`muzzy`	`well, if it does screw over legitimate maps, the maps are probably doing something they shouldn't :(`
`21:21.54`	`zeldarules28`	`Really`
`21:21.58`	`zeldarules28`	`Allowing people to hack thier bank files`
`21:22.06`	`zeldarules28`	`So using bank files is something bad?`
`21:22.08`	`muzzy`	`relying on bank files for anything important`
`21:22.21`	`zeldarules28`	`There's nothing else to reply on`
`21:22.23`	`zeldarules28`	`reply*`
`21:22.25`	`zeldarules28`	`Thats the problem`
`21:22.30`	`muzzy`	`the bank files aren't secure mechanism, and imo they should only be used for configuration and things that dont affect actual gameplay`
`21:22.37`	`zeldarules28`	`Our only option is use banks and then encrypt the hell out of them`
`21:22.47`	`muzzy`	`yes, it's an arms race`
`21:22.53`	`zeldarules28`	`Right, so how do you make a rpg`
`21:22.57`	`zeldarules28`	`without using banks`
`21:23.06`	`muzzy`	`singleplayer or multiplayer?`
`21:23.09`	`zeldarules28`	`Both`
`21:23.18`	`muzzy`	`singleplayer: doesn't matter, those who cheat will cheat`
`21:23.19`	`zeldarules28`	`It's not possible to do either without bank files`
`21:23.28`	`zeldarules28`	`Yes, that's true for SP`
`21:23.30`	`muzzy`	`multiplayer: it's not possible to do securely with bankfiles no matter what`
`21:23.40`	`zeldarules28`	`Yeah`
`21:23.47`	`zeldarules28`	`The only thing we can do`
`21:23.53`	`zeldarules28`	`is stop the 99% from hacking`
`21:24.05`	`zeldarules28`	`Wheres people likeyourself who actually know what they're doing will always be able to get around`
`21:24.07`	`muzzy`	`mainly, my work is targeted towards maps having secrets`
`21:24.25`	`muzzy`	`for example, the map author might include some functionality in the map that's not supposed to be found by others`
`21:24.33`	`muzzy`	`something they can use themselves to do funny things`
`21:24.38`	`zeldarules28`	`The problem is that you publishing stuff to let others do the same is letting them do it too. And frankly, most people with your "skillset" don't do nice things :P`
`21:24.48`	`zeldarules28`	`What could they possibly do`
`21:24.53`	`zeldarules28`	`Thats bad or harfulk`
`21:25.04`	`zeldarules28`	`other than in-game rewards or something`
`21:25.05`	`muzzy`	`i believe it'll be a learning experience for them either way if they manage to use anything i release`
`21:25.18`	`zeldarules28`	`We dont want them to learn >.>`
`21:25.21`	`muzzy`	`lol`
`21:25.27`	`zeldarules28`	`But really, maps cant do anything illegitimate`
`21:25.31`	`zeldarules28`	`They cant ever harm your cpu`
`21:25.36`	`zeldarules28`	`They cant ever steal your info`
`21:25.41`	`muzzy`	`i dont think of them as "sc2 cheaters", i think of them as people. and everyone deserves to learn`
`21:26.12`	`zeldarules28`	`Thats like saying we should teach people to rob banks for the sake of knowledge >.>`
`21:26.30`	`muzzy`	`why not?`
`21:26.36`	`Hobrow`	`i wonder what would happen if you teach random people on the street how to kill others with 1 hit with your hand`
`21:26.42`	`zeldarules28`	`Because it cant lead to anything good`
`21:26.46`	`zeldarules28`	`ever`
`21:26.55`	`muzzy`	`if would improve security of the banks`
`21:27.10`	`muzzy`	`if banks could be easily robbed by knowing some secret information, it means there's something to be fixed`
`21:27.11`	`Khalint`	`justifying ruining other peoples fun with a lame excuse like "its for the sake of learning" is pretty weak`
`21:27.14`	`zeldarules28`	`They dont need improved security if people cant break in the first place`
`21:27.19`	`Khalint`	`it doesnt help anyone`
`21:27.58`	`Khalint`	`i knew a kid when i was in highschool who did that with peoples important information via an AOL scam`
`21:28.03`	`muzzy`	`zeld, that's where our views differ. many times the security could use improvements even if there aren't likely attacks currently`
`21:28.05`	`Khalint`	`got their CC info etc`
`21:28.09`	`Khalint`	`he ended up in prison`
`21:28.12`	`Khalint`	`so GG`
`21:28.13`	`muzzy`	`especially computer security`
`21:28.22`	`zeldarules28`	`Case and point: The general public is stupid. The general public doesn't know anything about anything. So giving them tools that let them get into places they shouldn't is bad. We teach our navy seals to kill and murder easily- thats fine an dandy, but it wouldn't be if EVERYBODY knew how to kill/murder easily`
`21:28.43`	`zeldarules28`	`Whatever :P`
`21:29.16`	`zeldarules28`	`My current goal is to make my map so frigging difficult to hack that people give up`
`21:29.17`	`muzzy`	`Khalint: mmmm CC info and such are 'secrets' in the sense that they can be changed if they leak, attacking secrets like that is a different deal`
`21:29.31`	`Khalint`	`same principle`
`21:29.35`	`muzzy`	`zeld, want some tips? :P`
`21:29.50`	`zeldarules28`	`Yeah, actually, thats why I started talking to you :D`
`21:29.57`	`zeldarules28`	`It's an RPG, it uses banks`
`21:30.01`	`zeldarules28`	`that wont be changing >.>`
`21:30.08`	`muzzy`	`so, there are several things that i haven't seen in the wild, but which bugged me like hell when writing my code`
`21:30.15`	`zeldarules28`	`I plan on obfuscating the hack out of it`
`21:30.17`	`muzzy`	`triggers can be created with just string of the function name`
`21:30.25`	`muzzy`	`those strings can be generated dynamically`
`21:30.31`	`muzzy`	`hell, the strings could even be stored to bank files`
`21:30.52`	`zeldarules28`	`You cant change trigger/function names on the fly`
`21:30.57`	`Khalint`	`nope`
`21:31.01`	`Khalint`	`i defly tried that`
`21:31.02`	`muzzy`	`and triggers executed based on the strings on bank - not a lookup table type of approach, but execution indirection so that there's NO hint in code about what trigger could get executed`
`21:31.25`	`muzzy`	`if my decompiler sees something like that, it's game over, nothing i can do`
`21:31.34`	`Khalint`	`obfuscation is our only option`
`21:31.37`	`Khalint`	`sadly`
`21:31.38`	`muzzy`	`another thing is using game mechanics to drive the code logic`
`21:31.41`	`zeldarules28`	`^ that`
`21:31.48`	`zeldarules28`	`^ no, above that`
`21:31.52`	`Khalint`	`lawl`
`21:31.54`	`Khalint`	`:)`
`21:31.57`	`muzzy`	`sooo....`
`21:32.06`	`zeldarules28`	`There is no way`
`21:32.06`	`muzzy`	`let's say your code spawns bunch of units and makes them fight`
`21:32.14`	`muzzy`	`and you know the outcome is always that X side wins`
`21:32.20`	`zeldarules28`	`to run functions with specific names`
`21:32.23`	`muzzy`	`however, the attacker reading the code cannot know that`
`21:32.31`	`muzzy`	`zeld, isn't?`
`21:32.35`	`muzzy`	`TriggerCreate`
`21:32.42`	`muzzy`	`it takes string as parameter, no?`
`21:32.51`	`zeldarules28`	`You cant create triggers on-the-fly`
`21:32.56`	`Khalint`	`if you find a functioning way to make it work let me know`
`21:32.59`	`muzzy`	`cant?`
`21:33.02`	`zeldarules28`	`Nor can you say "Run the trigger mathcing this string"`
`21:33.04`	`zeldarules28`	`No, you cant`
`21:33.11`	`Khalint`	`yeah i wanted to do that`
`21:33.12`	`muzzy`	`hmm. so the function call fails?`
`21:33.13`	`Khalint`	`but i couldnt`
`21:33.19`	`zeldarules28`	`There is no "create trigger" function`
`21:33.29`	`muzzy`	`wtf?`
`21:33.41`	`Khalint`	`you can enable/disable triggers but not create them`
`21:33.45`	`zeldarules28`	`You create everything from within the editor, map code is done behind-the-scenes`
`21:33.50`	`zeldarules28`	`You can turn triggers on or off`
`21:33.54`	`zeldarules28`	`but the map is as-is`
`21:34.01`	`zeldarules28`	`And you can not dynamically change ANYTHING`
`21:34.07`	`zeldarules28`	`in your code`
`21:34.08`	`muzzy`	`let me grab the nearest damn galaxy file`
`21:34.15`	`Khalint`	`have at it`
`21:34.20`	`zeldarules28`	`please do, because if you're right, I'd love to hear it`
`21:34.21`	`Khalint`	`if you find a way lemme know ill gladly do that`
`21:34.27`	`zeldarules28`	`yeah seriously ^.^`
`21:34.28`	`Khalint`	`yarp`
`21:34.35`	`muzzy`	`void InitMap ... calls InitTriggers ... calls bunch of stuff like ....`
`21:34.43`	`muzzy`	`gt_PlayerList = TriggerCreate("gt_PlayerList_Func");`
`21:34.48`	`muzzy`	`TriggerAddEventChatMessage(gt_PlayerList, c_playerAny, "-playerlist", true);`
`21:35.00`	`zeldarules28`	`Right, thats done in the galaxy file`
`21:35.01`	`muzzy`	`it creates new trigger, based on a string`
`21:35.11`	`muzzy`	`it assigns to a variable, then it binds it`
`21:35.12`	`zeldarules28`	`Its creating the trigger we already set up`
`21:35.23`	`muzzy`	`hmm`
`21:35.34`	`zeldarules28`	`The editor doesnt let us touch the galaxy file`
`21:35.40`	`zeldarules28`	`Anything done to that is done kind hacky`
`21:35.41`	`muzzy`	`then add an include`
`21:35.49`	`zeldarules28`	`No includes within sc2 >.>`
`21:35.51`	`muzzy`	`and write the code in another galaxy file`
`21:35.54`	`muzzy`	`sure tehre is`
`21:36.00`	`zeldarules28`	`Well, there's dependencies`
`21:36.01`	`muzzy`	`there was library system`
`21:36.04`	`zeldarules28`	`Which is a viable stra`
`21:36.08`	`muzzy`	`that could be used to include .galaxy files`
`21:36.10`	`zeldarules28`	`Yeah, you can split code into multiple libraries`
`21:36.15`	`zeldarules28`	`Because that tricks hackers`
`21:36.24`	`zeldarules28`	`And it's something that we're aware of ^.^`
`21:36.25`	`Khalint`	`i plan on doing that`
`21:36.34`	`muzzy`	`also, iirc the function definitions in map editor were a bit too verbatim too`
`21:36.35`	`zeldarules28`	`Obfuscate EVERYTHING, and then divide the code into a crazy amount of libraries`
`21:36.38`	`muzzy`	`like, if you made a custom script`
`21:36.48`	`Khalint`	`ill have a library for the combat system item crafting`
`21:36.53`	`muzzy`	`and ended it with } ... you could write another raw galaxy function definition`
`21:37.01`	`Khalint`	`each map will have its own spawn thing too`
`21:37.24`	`muzzy`	`anyway, i haven't actually created any maps myself so i haven't actually tested any of this, i'd need to try out stuff i suppose`
`21:37.39`	`zeldarules28`	`You are aware the editor is done via triggers, right?`
`21:37.42`	`muzzy`	`but iirc i saw someone creating triggers based on strings somewhere`
`21:37.44`	`Khalint`	`gogo on veZpene evolution`
`21:37.46`	`zeldarules28`	`Very few people actually code in galaxy`
`21:37.53`	`muzzy`	`yes, i've seen it`
`21:37.57`	`muzzy`	`it's painful`
`21:38.07`	`zeldarules28`	`It's got it's advantages`
`21:38.14`	`zeldarules28`	`And then it's disadvantages >.>`
`21:38.23`	`muzzy`	`well, yes, you can find functions by browsing silly lists`
`21:38.28`	`zeldarules28`	`Of course it's done to keep things simple for newer editrors`
`21:38.30`	`muzzy`	`but there's no way i'm using that if i make a map`
`21:38.37`	`zeldarules28`	`Good luck learning galaxy`
`21:38.39`	`Khalint`	`i find it so much more organized`
`21:38.39`	`zeldarules28`	`theres NO documentation`
`21:38.42`	`zeldarules28`	`at all`
`21:38.43`	`zeldarules28`	`anywhere`
`21:38.44`	`muzzy`	`or if i do, i only do it to reverse engineer :)`
`21:38.45`	`zenx1`	`did you say you cannot run trigger matching string? what you mean`
`21:38.48`	`Khalint`	`plus it auto changes stuff for you`
`21:38.52`	`muzzy`	`well`
`21:38.56`	`muzzy`	`there "kind of" is documentation`
`21:38.57`	`zeldarules28`	`Trust me when I say I'd prefer to right in galaxy`
`21:39.03`	`muzzy`	`the core files have all the .galaxy headers`
`21:39.06`	`zeldarules28`	`No, your just looking at the mapscript files :P`
`21:39.08`	`muzzy`	`the function prototypes are available`
`21:39.10`	`zenx1`	`you typed too much cant read all this stuff`
`21:39.13`	`zeldarules28`	`That doesnt count as documentation`
`21:39.16`	`zeldarules28`	`^.^`
`21:39.20`	`muzzy`	`some of it contains comments`
`21:39.24`	`muzzy`	`describing what the functions do`
`21:39.31`	`zeldarules28`	`>.>`
`21:39.32`	`muzzy`	`not all though`
`21:39.39`	`muzzy`	`and hey, then i have sc2mapster`
`21:39.41`	`muzzy`	`;D`
`21:39.48`	`muzzy`	`i've seen it has plenty of documentation`
`21:39.55`	`zeldarules28`	`Theres like 2 people there who know galaxy, and thus, no galaxy documentation`
`21:39.58`	`muzzy`	`very very useful stuff such as the fixed point integer format etc <3`
`21:40.07`	`muzzy`	`awww`
`21:40.11`	`zeldarules28`	`There are NO PEOPLE who understand galaxy, except I think 1, MAYBE 2 on the site`
`21:40.19`	`Hobrow`	`kuken and? :D`
`21:40.19`	`zeldarules28`	`And afaik there's nobody anywhere else`
`21:40.27`	`muzzy`	`hrmh`
`21:40.27`	`zeldarules28`	`Kueken and galaxy++ guy`
`21:40.32`	`zeldarules28`	`forgot his name`
`21:40.38`	`Hobrow`	`yeah`
`21:40.39`	`muzzy`	`i got a little silly feeling now`
`21:40.41`	`Hobrow`	`me too`
`21:40.53`	`zeldarules28`	`and you :D`
`21:40.54`	`muzzy`	`i mean, i've been reading the MapScript.galaxy sources for dozens of maps and have a somewhat okay grasp of how the language works`
`21:41.01`	`zeldarules28`	`Of course, how could we forgot`
`21:41.10`	`muzzy`	`good enough that i've written a functioning lexer, parser, optimizer etc for it`
`21:41.15`	`zeldarules28`	`Try making a map in galaxy :P`
`21:41.18`	`zeldarules28`	`With no prior experience :P`
`21:41.30`	`muzzy`	`yea, i figure it'll be pretty rough`
`21:41.31`	`zeldarules28`	`The thing is that it's not worth it for most people to learn`
`21:41.58`	`zeldarules28`	`Theres 0 documentation for that, where as theres a very nice, GUI-driven, totally documented trigger editor that does almost all the same stuff`
`21:42.04`	`zeldarules28`	`The biggest disadvantage for me is speed`
`21:42.19`	`zeldarules28`	`Whereas in C# or something I can just pop back and forth and type, you need to deal with a much slower GUI`
`21:42.19`	`Khalint`	`wait`
`21:42.27`	`muzzy`	`heh`
`21:42.28`	`zeldarules28`	`waitin`
`21:42.35`	`zeldarules28`	`also, you're holding me back from my homework`
`21:42.35`	`Khalint`	`a lexer is the thing that lets you create like a string with operators in it right?`
`21:42.38`	`zeldarules28`	`I hope you know that :P`
`21:42.45`	`zeldarules28`	`er...I'm not sure`
`21:42.47`	`muzzy`	`khalint, yeah`
`21:42.51`	`Khalint`	`i need one of those`
`21:42.52`	`Khalint`	`:P`
`21:42.59`	`Khalint`	`i have a crappy parser`
`21:43.03`	`muzzy`	`for galaxy? uhh, i'm not sure you want mine`
`21:43.09`	`muzzy`	`mine is kinda ... kludgy`
`21:43.09`	`Khalint`	`tho i need to make it able to nest`
`21:43.24`	`Khalint`	`heh well maybe ill try making one`
`21:43.29`	`Khalint`	`i dont know how well itll work`
`21:43.43`	`Khalint`	`i need it for my item process and bonus effects`
`21:43.57`	`Khalint`	`like id like to be able to define an items bonus with a kind of miniscript`
`21:44.05`	`Khalint`	`that says bonus is equal to such and such`
`21:44.27`	`zeldarules28`	`Im not great with programming outside sc2 :/ I know a bit of C++ and a bit more of C#, lots of gml (useless) from when I was little`
`21:44.34`	`zeldarules28`	`and then a bit of php`
`21:44.39`	`zeldarules28`	`But nothing too crazy`
`21:44.45`	`Khalint`	`right now ive made a function call in my parser so i can call a function by an id and pass it a value`
`21:44.57`	`Khalint`	`but it seems kind of wasteful`
`21:45.07`	`zeldarules28`	`Im going afk because you're both too interesting for me to do homework ^.^`
`21:45.13`	`Khalint`	`haha`
`21:45.44`	`muzzy`	`oh my, my source tree is a mess. let me upload this one file somewhere so you can see why i dont want you to see it ...`
`21:45.50`	`Hobrow`	`homework on a saturday?`
`21:45.56`	`muzzy`	`http://codepad.org/J1YWbghU`
`21:46.01`	`Khalint`	`"Increases the %C's strength by %F 501 , +%K1/2/3/4/5/%."`
`21:46.10`	`Khalint`	`%f is a function and the value after it is the value`
`21:46.14`	`Khalint`	`to pass`
`21:46.17`	`Khalint`	`its pretty weak`
`21:46.21`	`muzzy`	`so, python code`
`21:46.28`	`Khalint`	`uhm yeah sure`
`21:46.32`	`Khalint`	`i dont know what that is lol`
`21:46.35`	`Khalint`	`i just made that up`
`21:46.42`	`Khalint`	`but if thats what it is then yeah`
`21:46.51`	`Khalint`	`%k converts the rank into one of the foloowing values`
`21:46.54`	`Khalint`	`following*`
`21:46.58`	`muzzy`	`lexer is around lines 483+`
`21:47.14`	`muzzy`	`line 510 is what you want`
`21:47.18`	`muzzy`	`or rather, what you DONT WANT`
`21:47.27`	`muzzy`	`that's my tokenizer as a single horrible regex`
`21:47.50`	`Khalint`	`lol`
`21:47.58`	`muzzy`	`don't bother trying to run it btw`
`21:47.59`	`Khalint`	`well maybe ill look into making my own`
`21:48.13`	`Khalint`	`i really need one`
`21:48.13`	`muzzy`	`the current sc2 data files changed compression format and mpyq cannot extract them`
`21:48.23`	`muzzy`	`and the code NEEDS function prototypes for all used functions`
`21:48.37`	`muzzy`	`so it parses the galaxy headers from sc2 installation too when parsing a script`
`21:48.41`	`Khalint`	`im thinking something like %F{} and everything in {} gets converted to a formula or something`
`21:48.51`	`Khalint`	`youre beyond me on that`
`21:48.56`	`Khalint`	`<- coding dummy`
`21:49.05`	`Khalint`	`i understand the concepts but the details im blind to`
`21:49.19`	`muzzy`	`heh`
`21:49.27`	`Khalint`	`i only just found out what a void was`
`21:49.31`	`Khalint`	`i knew what it did`
`21:49.38`	`Khalint`	`but i knew it as a GUI "action"`
`21:49.52`	`Khalint`	`-_-`
`21:49.57`	`muzzy`	`so yea .. i tried to offer this source to a bunch of sc2 hackers elsewhere, and turned out nobody of them could do shit with it :(`
`21:50.00`	`muzzy`	`heh`
`21:50.04`	`Khalint`	`lol`
`21:50.11`	`Khalint`	`well if you get a better one made lemme know`
`21:50.14`	`Khalint`	`id love to have one`
`21:50.18`	`Khalint`	`for now ill try to make my own`
`21:50.26`	`Khalint`	`i just dont know quite how to go about it`
`21:50.34`	`muzzy`	`well, this one's made for my own needs, of deobfuscating map scripts`
`21:50.35`	`Khalint`	`i also need to make my parser better`
`21:50.43`	`Khalint`	`:P`
`21:51.01`	`muzzy`	`it can deobfuscate constant expressions and all those silly things the better obfuscators are using :)`
`21:51.11`	`muzzy`	`and it also works with bunch of methods that nobody has figured out to use yet`
`21:51.17`	`Khalint`	`again im not even sure what you mean`
`21:51.17`	`Khalint`	`:P`
`21:51.49`	`muzzy`	`if you've looked at obfuscated maps, you'll see all numbers are changed into stuff like 3526+0x236357-036372`
`21:52.06`	`Khalint`	`oic`
`21:52.11`	`Khalint`	`yeah i havent`
`21:52.11`	`muzzy`	`those are constant expressions, expressions that dont depend on any external data`
`21:52.20`	`muzzy`	`and can be evaluated to a constant value`
`21:52.34`	`Khalint`	`my "obfuscation" is really just renaming everything lol`
`21:52.39`	`Khalint`	`since my map isnt close to finished yet`
`21:52.44`	`Khalint`	`i hadnt thought about anything further`
`21:53.12`	`muzzy`	`:)`
`21:53.18`	`Khalint`	`:x`
`21:54.09`	`muzzy`	`so, what'd you need the lexer for? obfuscation purposes? :o`
`21:54.21`	`Khalint`	`no just to insert formulas into item procs etc`
`21:54.24`	`muzzy`	`or wait, i think you said something but i didn't read`
`21:54.25`	`muzzy`	`lol`
`21:54.30`	`muzzy`	`ahhh`
`21:54.30`	`muzzy`	`yes`
`21:54.32`	`Khalint`	`like "Increases the %C's strength by %F 501 , +%K1/2/3/4/5/%."`
`21:54.37`	`muzzy`	`i see`
`21:54.38`	`Khalint`	`%f calls a formula`
`21:54.43`	`Khalint`	`but its a predefined one`
`21:54.51`	`Khalint`	`id like to run the formula within the string so to speak`
`21:54.57`	`muzzy`	`so you'd really want macros of some kind`
`21:55.00`	`Khalint`	`without going to predefined ones`
`21:55.03`	`Khalint`	`yeah basically`
`21:55.28`	`Khalint`	`id like to be able to put liie %f[ str *8 + agi +10 / 10}`
`21:55.31`	`muzzy`	`but hmm`
`21:55.38`	`Khalint`	`things like that`
`21:55.40`	`muzzy`	`wait wait wait, you want to run these on runtime!`
`21:55.46`	`Khalint`	`on read`
`21:55.46`	`muzzy`	`or compiletime?`
`21:55.54`	`Khalint`	`when an items proc happens`
`21:56.00`	`Khalint`	`etc`
`21:56.04`	`Khalint`	`if its even possible`
`21:56.24`	`Khalint`	`im guessing thats runtime?`
`21:56.27`	`muzzy`	`if you want runtime string templates, then it's something completely different from what my code is for :D`
`21:56.34`	`Khalint`	`yeah possibly`
`21:56.36`	`Hobrow`	`slaps Eiviyn around a bit with a large trout`
`21:56.49`	`Khalint`	`like i said i looked up what a lexer was when you mentioned it`
`21:56.58`	`Khalint`	`and its something along the lines of what i need lol`
`21:57.00`	`Khalint`	`XD`
`21:57.04`	`muzzy`	`ahhhh`
`21:57.08`	`muzzy`	`facepalm`
`21:57.21`	`Khalint`	`even if it didnt work it may have been enough to get me on the right track haha`
`21:57.25`	`muzzy`	`sorry, i thought you knew you wanted a galaxyscript lexer. lol`
`21:57.34`	`Khalint`	`oh no no need for that`
`21:57.39`	`Khalint`	`:P`
`21:57.46`	`Khalint`	`but again concept helps`
`21:57.47`	`muzzy`	`well, lexing the string templates isn't a bad idea`
`21:58.01`	`muzzy`	`but i'm not sure i'd do it like that in galaxyscript`
`21:58.01`	`Khalint`	`itd make item creation and traits etc easier`
`21:58.07`	`Khalint`	`plus my tooltips could have interactive values`
`21:58.16`	`muzzy`	`yepyep`
`21:58.29`	`Khalint`	`right now what i have works`
`21:58.41`	`Khalint`	`but i have to define each functions operations in a single trigger`
`21:59.02`	`Khalint`	`like formula 1 is x + b /y = return`
`21:59.10`	`Khalint`	`and call that formula with values to plug in`
`21:59.17`	`Khalint`	`but i have to do that for every formula`
`21:59.23`	`Khalint`	`which ,ales me a sad panda`
`21:59.26`	`Khalint`	`makes*`
`21:59.33`	`Khalint`	`but thats the only thing i know how to do`
`21:59.36`	`Khalint`	`><`
`21:59.52`	`muzzy`	`this sounds like something that would need a closer look`
`22:00.03`	`Khalint`	`well if you feel so inclined lemme know`
`22:00.08`	`Khalint`	`for now im going to improve my parser`
`22:00.10`	`Khalint`	`:x`
`22:00.19`	`muzzy`	`but it's 1am ... i should go sleep at some point too :)`
`22:00.27`	`Khalint`	`oh hell its 5pm here lol`
`22:00.32`	`Khalint`	`middle of the day!`
`22:00.45`	`Khalint`	`and my day off`
`22:00.51`	`Khalint`	`love days off`
`22:01.23`	`*** join/#sc2mapster tordy (627449b7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.116.73.183)`
`22:01.24`	`tordy`	`hello`
`22:04.48`	`muzzy`	`heh`
`22:04.56`	`muzzy`	`damn, this place turned out to be more fun than i expected`
`22:05.02`	`Khalint`	`:P`
`22:05.24`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Iiris_Frost (~chatzilla@99-73-217-161.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net)`
`22:05.24`	`muzzy`	`frankly, i thought i'd get kickbanned for admitting to developing deobfuscators and bank file editors ;D`
`22:05.39`	`Khalint`	`well`
`22:05.44`	`Khalint`	`theres only like 1 op`
`22:05.46`	`Iiris_Frost`	`I wish photoshop had a free edition`
`22:05.47`	`Khalint`	`and theyre afk lol`
`22:05.49`	`muzzy`	`haha`
`22:05.52`	`muzzy`	`i see :)`
`22:06.05`	`Khalint`	`but really those things are going to be created`
`22:06.15`	`Khalint`	`if not you someone else`
`22:06.18`	`muzzy`	`Iiris_Frost: depending on what you need to do, there are free tools that might work for you :)`
`22:06.34`	`tordy`	`i dont like the way people focus so much on visuals so early in a project`
`22:06.38`	`tordy`	`sc2mapster for example`
`22:06.45`	`Khalint`	`heh`
`22:06.49`	`Khalint`	`yeah`
`22:06.52`	`Iiris_Frost`	`Need photoshop for graphic editing and exporting into dds`
`22:07.11`	`tordy`	`lots of comments on like pre-alpha projects say things like "i dont like the way the UI looks" or "i dont like the effects or terrain"`
`22:07.13`	`Khalint`	`in my map i use a lot of wow assets simply caue theyre easy to get into the map and look better`
`22:07.17`	`Khalint`	`but i do plan to make my own`
`22:07.24`	`Iiris_Frost`	`but photoshop is like $600/year`
`22:07.26`	`Khalint`	`yep my map has those!`
`22:07.28`	`muzzy`	`iiris: for example ... http://www.getpaint.net/ ... or gimp (especially the project seashore version), etc ... oh, dds export, hmm`
`22:07.39`	`muzzy`	`i'm pretty sure there are free convertors`
`22:07.40`	`Iiris_Frost`	`i hate gimp`
`22:07.56`	`muzzy`	`and can't you use .tga too?`
`22:07.59`	`tordy`	`most important thing imo is just getting the gameplay system working`
`22:08.00`	`Iiris_Frost`	`plus I already know photoshop`
`22:08.02`	`tordy`	`could focus on visuals later`
`22:08.16`	`Iiris_Frost`	`SC2 only supports dds for images`
`22:08.29`	`tordy`	`if you have to sacrifice visuals to get a much wider range of feedback (like publishing to public) then so be it`
`22:08.53`	`Khalint`	`it supports TGA as well`
`22:08.58`	`Khalint`	`but dds is very nicely compressed`
`22:09.12`	`muzzy`	`i've seen plenty TGA inside map files, it should work at least temporarily :)`
`22:09.39`	`tordy`	`muzzy buzzy fuzzy`
`22:09.47`	`Khalint`	`lol?`
`22:10.34`	`Iiris_Frost`	`I was told by ppl in the channel that the only image type supported by SC2 is dds`
`22:10.58`	`Iiris_Frost`	`but without Photoshop I'm screwed`
`22:11.02`	`muzzy`	`oh man`
`22:11.12`	`muzzy`	`i was about to go turn lights off from the kitchen`
`22:11.23`	`muzzy`	`but somehow i ended up pouring myself a glass of cola`
`22:11.38`	`muzzy`	`i suppose i wont be going to sleep yet afterall`
`22:12.03`	`Khalint`	`haha`
`22:12.35`	`muzzy`	`so, haha, now i'm all "man, i'll make a map!" but i dont want to clone MineralZ and i dont really have any good ideas atm >_<`
`22:12.58`	`Iiris_Frost`	`muzzy, you can just help me instead. (best idea ever)`
`22:13.08`	`muzzy`	`Iiris_Frost: fantastic!`
`22:13.14`	`muzzy`	`so umm ... what'd you need?`
`22:13.26`	`Iiris_Frost`	`Step 1: need photoshop`
`22:13.42`	`Iiris_Frost`	`Step 2: Need dds plugin for photoshop`
`22:13.53`	`muzzy`	`well, i happen to have photoshop, but i don't have a copy for you. no dds plugin tho :O`
`22:14.01`	`Iiris_Frost`	`:(`
`22:14.41`	`Iiris_Frost`	`need to make some graphics`
`22:14.52`	`muzzy`	`but i'm sure there are some commandline dds converters out there :O`
`22:15.00`	`muzzy`	`or, again, use TGA :>`
`22:15.28`	`Iiris_Frost`	`the images are in png`
`22:17.01`	`muzzy`	`http://www.getpaint.net/ ... should support saving to tga`
`22:17.09`	`muzzy`	`waaaait`
`22:17.13`	`muzzy`	`it also supports .dds apparently`
`22:17.38`	`muzzy`	`since 2007`
`22:18.39`	`muzzy`	`so if you only need to convert stuff, you should be fine with that`
`22:19.27`	`tordy`	`ive always been a paint.net kinda guy`
`22:19.28`	`Iiris_Frost`	`I might need to merge some images together`
`22:20.05`	`muzzy`	`i believe paint.net can do all the basic stuff just fine`
`22:20.07`	`tordy`	`altho you might need some plugins to get some common functionality from photoshop`
`22:20.48`	`tordy`	`i'd use photoshop but i just make really basic stuff and dont really need the power of photoshop`
`22:20.57`	`tordy`	`plus it's a lot quicker to load`
`22:21.00`	`tordy`	`ont his comp at least`
`22:21.18`	`muzzy`	`mmyea, photoshop is too huge so it takes longer to load it all from the disk :)`
`22:21.30`	`muzzy`	`i hear with fast SSD disks photoshop loads up in seconds :O`
`22:22.02`	`Eiviyn`	`Nearly every image editor allows .dds`
`22:22.06`	`Eiviyn`	`paint.net`
`22:22.10`	`Eiviyn`	`"OH I HATE IT"`
`22:22.32`	`Eiviyn`	`Well get a job and buy photoshop or suck it up and learn the free software`
`22:22.57`	`muzzy`	`back when i was windows used, i'd use the mspaint really much ... but in win7 they completely destroyed mspaint :(`
`22:23.07`	`muzzy`	`mspaint used to be enough for everything`
`22:24.06`	`tordy`	`i dont have money for an SSD`
`22:24.13`	`tordy`	`even tho they are getting much cheaper these days`
`22:24.20`	`tordy`	`like ive seen some $1 per GB`
`22:24.26`	`tordy`	`when last year it was liek $2`
`22:26.47`	`Iiris_Frost`	`I'd prefer just using software I already know, as in photoshop`
`22:28.11`	`muzzy`	`aaaand that's why software piracy benefits software companies`
`22:28.56`	`Iiris_Frost`	`if only good torrents still exist`
`22:29.11`	`zeldarules28\|AFK`	`just poped back in for a second`
`22:29.16`	`zeldarules28\|AFK`	`saw that message by muzzy`
`22:29.23`	`zeldarules28\|AFK`	`almost had a rage fit, decided to go back afk >.>`
`22:29.29`	`muzzy`	`lol :)`
`22:29.29`	`Khalint`	`lol`
`22:29.45`	`muzzy`	`no, i really had a point: piracy means the competition isn't getting usage or money`
`22:29.54`	`muzzy`	`i'd really love it if nobody pirated photoshop`
`22:30.30`	`muzzy`	`it'd be THAT MANY new users for opensource software, and the speed of its development would surely improve as a result`
`22:30.33`	`tordy`	`not gonna happen`
`22:30.40`	`Iiris_Frost`	`I wish adobe would give a free edition of photoshop`
`22:30.44`	`muzzy`	`but everyone always warez0rs themselves the photoshop`
`22:30.52`	`zeldarules28\|AFK`	`I payed for it legit`
`22:31.02`	`zeldarules28\|AFK`	`overpriced and barely affordable`
`22:31.06`	`zeldarules28\|AFK`	`^.^`
`22:31.09`	`muzzy`	`heh`
`22:31.22`	`zeldarules28\|AFK`	`still cant get my hands on the adobe programs I very much need`
`22:31.36`	`zeldarules28\|AFK`	`because I refuse to pirate them`
`22:31.36`	`tordy`	`like`
`22:31.50`	`zeldarules28\|AFK`	`after effects, really need it for a lot of trailers/intro videos`
`22:31.56`	`zeldarules28\|AFK`	`dreamwaver for my web development`
`22:32.00`	`zeldarules28\|AFK`	`weaver*`
`22:32.05`	`zeldarules28\|AFK`	`Flash for game development`
`22:32.20`	`zeldarules28\|AFK`	`And illustrator for illustration and logo design`
`22:32.49`	`muzzy`	`i stayed off warez a long long time too, until i realized the quality of my life had suffered significantly. so, i got myself photoshop... if i made any money with it i'd buy it for sure, but i can barely afford to buy myself furniture etc`
`22:33.06`	`muzzy`	`and the recent advances in copyright law don't really impress me either`
`22:33.17`	`zeldarules28\|AFK`	`The law is not up to date with technology`
`22:33.25`	`Khalint`	`patents are scary`
`22:33.40`	`zeldarules28\|AFK`	`That said, It would really annoy me if I put my heart and soul into a game and had people steal (or hack 8cough cough*) it`
`22:33.53`	`muzzy`	`disclaimer: i've also lost a criminal copyright infringement case in court ... my crime was: publishing a parody of "save the children"'s internet censorship stupidity`
`22:34.12`	`zeldarules28\|AFK`	`lol`
`22:34.16`	`muzzy`	`i lost the case because of new changes to criminal law that were introduced to punish warez`
`22:34.27`	`zeldarules28\|AFK`	`at least sopa is dead ^.^`
`22:34.33`	`muzzy`	`copyright infringement using the internet without need to financially benefit from it`
`22:34.53`	`muzzy`	`... turns out, twisting "save the children"'s slogan a little counts as copyright infringement`
`22:35.12`	`muzzy`	`and it's not just a civil case because of the new law here`
`22:35.34`	`muzzy`	`it was a criminal case, and i got, uh, wait ... 20kEUR total in legal bills to pay now?`
`22:35.42`	`muzzy`	`yea, something like that`
`22:36.04`	`muzzy`	`not kidding, for real`
`22:36.32`	`muzzy`	`... i'm currently complaining about it to the european court of human rights though, the case has already gone through all courts of finland`
`22:37.22`	`muzzy`	`also ... back when new copyright laws were drafted, i was active in campaigning against DRM provisions of it etc, and discussed the law with the lawmakers`
`22:37.51`	`muzzy`	`and they basically said that even though independent research will be illegal and a crime, it doesn't matter because nobody's coming to your living room to check if you're analyzing a DRM system`
`22:38.11`	`muzzy`	`people who write copyright laws believe that it's okay to break them if you dont get caught`
`22:38.22`	`muzzy`	`i heard this in person from the guy who wrote the goddamn laws`
`22:38.28`	`muzzy`	`and who has been chairman of WIPO etc`
`22:38.33`	`muzzy`	`or hmm, was it chairman?`
`22:38.39`	`muzzy`	`some fscking high position anyway`
`22:39.18`	`Iiris_Frost`	`:(`
`22:39.28`	`muzzy`	`so yea, you can have a rage fit over my opinions about copyright law, but i have zero respect for the law or for the people who write these laws`
`22:39.30`	`*** join/#sc2mapster tigger0jk (~tigger0jk@c-71-202-39-119.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)`
`22:39.42`	`ckSynergy`	`$250 is close enough to free`
`22:40.05`	`muzzy`	`oh? hey then, i got a proposal for you, and it's close enough to free ... would you like to hear it? ;D`
`22:40.37`	`ckSynergy`	`lol, probably moot considering I already own the Master Suite lol`
`22:40.45`	`muzzy`	`pffft`
`22:41.19`	`ckSynergy`	`lol`
`22:41.31`	`Iiris_Frost`	`without photoshop doesn't look like I can do the images myself for my map :(`
`22:41.34`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Hobrow^disc (~q@i5E863399.versanet.de)`
`22:41.55`	`muzzy`	`i dont even have a bed in my apartment, just a mattress on the floor, cant afford to buy furniture i dont absolutely need :)`
`22:42.03`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Lilianna (~Lilianna@71-84-18-236.dhcp.trlk.ca.charter.com)`
`22:42.13`	`ckSynergy`	`lol`
`22:42.43`	`ckSynergy`	`it took me 15 years of saving to buy photoshop. Finally got it and the next version was a major overhaul to the entire core. That ended that dream of "owning" it lol`
`22:42.56`	`muzzy`	`haha`
`22:43.11`	`muzzy`	`yeah...`
`22:43.50`	`ckSynergy`	`Not to mention, I bought it at a student discount of $900. The following year, I found out they had a coupon (at the time I bought it) to bring it down to $250. For the master suite. Not only that but the next release was $800 and to upgrade it was $525`
`22:44.00`	`ckSynergy`	`needless to say, I dont support adobes pricing structure`
`22:44.06`	`Iiris_Frost`	`photoshop is like $500/year`
`22:44.19`	`ckSynergy`	`for the creative cloud, yea`
`22:44.43`	`Iiris_Frost`	`no for the software`
`22:44.51`	`muzzy`	`get photoshop elements, then ;)`
`22:45.00`	`ckSynergy`	`only if you want to keep it at the latest version`
`22:45.07`	`ckSynergy`	`Aye elements is like what? $100?`
`22:45.18`	`muzzy`	`old versions of photoshop are pretty useful too`
`22:45.21`	`ckSynergy`	`If youre a student you get a massive discount`
`22:45.27`	`muzzy`	`i think i'd be happy with photoshop 5.5`
`22:45.30`	`ckSynergy`	`HA!`
`22:45.34`	`ckSynergy`	`I have 5.5`
`22:45.39`	`ckSynergy`	`CS6 was a slap in my face`
`22:45.43`	`muzzy`	`5.5 was awesome version`
`22:45.50`	`ckSynergy`	`it was ok`
`22:45.54`	`ckSynergy`	`not awesome`
`22:46.22`	`muzzy`	`well, i didn't really like that much anything that came after it ...`
`22:46.39`	`Khalint`	`:P`
`22:46.42`	`Khalint`	`i use cs5`
`22:46.55`	`muzzy`	`me too, because it's available on warez sites ;)`
`22:47.01`	`Khalint`	`pretty much`
`22:47.07`	`Khalint`	`i used to have cs3 in school`
`22:47.08`	`Iiris_Frost`	`sad I'm gonna need to find someone to do the images for my map even though i know how since I can't get photoshop`
`22:47.33`	`muzzy`	`Iiris_Frost: awwww... wait, what images? do i get any artistic freedom?`
`22:47.52`	`muzzy`	`goes find photos of bears to add to iiris's images`
`22:48.02`	`Iiris_Frost`	`using WoW images for the time being.`
`22:48.23`	`Iiris_Frost`	`but still need someone to merge various images and what not`
`22:48.25`	`tordy`	`BOOOO`
`22:48.35`	`Iiris_Frost`	`later I'd have custom ones made`
`22:48.43`	`muzzy`	`what kind of images are we talking about?`
`22:48.54`	`muzzy`	`i could draw you some awesome colored stick figures`
`22:49.16`	`Iiris_Frost`	`[-_-]`
`22:50.20`	`Iiris_Frost`	`I could do it all fine myself if i had photoshop`
`22:51.03`	`muzzy`	`ah, yes, but you dont have photoshop ... so how about i draw some bears for your needs`
`22:51.20`	`muzzy`	`:)`
`22:55.11`	`muzzy`	`dont be shy! some custom drawn bears, isn't that great? i dont offer to draw bears to just anyone!`
`23:04.10`	`muzzy`	`hmm, 2am ... yea, i should go sleep soon`
`23:04.34`	`JademusSreg`	`Hold out for two more hours.`
`23:09.02`	`muzzy`	`mmmm, why? :P`
`23:09.24`	`JademusSreg`	`4 am is a good time.`
`23:10.04`	`*** join/#sc2mapster JademusSreg (Owenalacas@c-76-123-235-103.hsd1.tn.comcast.net)`
`23:14.15`	`muzzy`	`bah, i'm off to sleep now ->`
`23:20.59`	`Khalint`	`night`
`23:21.02`	`TheAlmaity`	`nite`
`23:21.28`	`Khalint`	`hmm i wonder if i even can make a lexer in the trigger editor`
`23:50.38`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Zandose (18f64fea@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.246.79.234)`
`23:50.40`	`Zandose`	`hey`
`23:51.14`	`Zandose`	`Does anyone know how to turn off the annoying messages in the trigger editor whenever I change a variable to something else?`
`23:51.30`	`Zandose`	`version 1.5.1`
`23:56.25`	`TheAlmaity`	`not entirely sure what messages you mean`
`23:57.57`	`Zandose`	`iI version 1.5.1. I have a function and within the function I copy, paste, and edit the parameters variable type. Each time i try to change it i get a message.`
`23:58.45`	`TheAlmaity`	`those could be error messages if your functions are already in use somewhere else`
`23:59.02`	`*** join/#sc2mapster Sprocks (~Sprocks@bas1-brampton37-1176134865.dsl.bell.ca)`
`23:59.04`	`TheAlmaity`	`easiest way would be to remove the functions, dont know if theres any other way to prevent error emssages`
`23:59.58`	`Zandose`	`its not a error message. its saying the variable are in use in the code but they arent`

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