| 00:14.24 | *** join/#riftuidev Noshei (~quassel@c-24-9-171-99.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 00:44.11 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar1 (~Adium@ppp-93-104-176-32.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 02:04.38 | *** join/#riftuidev purl (ibot@rikers.org) |
| 02:04.38 | *** topic/#riftuidev is http://pastebin.com for code snippets || PIL: http://www.lua.org/pil || Rift AddOn Policy: http://t.co/7xXd4LL || AddOn Wiki: wiki.riftui.com/ || this channel is logged, via purl || Happy Pi day! |
| 03:11.48 | *** join/#riftuidev seebs (~seebs@home.seebs.net) |
| 03:11.49 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+o seebs] by ChanServ |
| 04:05.35 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar2 (~Adium@ppp-93-104-177-126.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 04:05.46 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar_ (~Imhothar@ppp-93-104-177-126.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 04:38.00 | *** join/#riftuidev seebs_ (~seebs@home.seebs.net) |
| 04:38.00 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+o seebs_] by ChanServ |
| 06:07.59 | *** join/#riftuidev borbra (~quassel@grm-128-39-147-128.studby.uia.no) |
| 06:56.42 | Ivnedar_ | wow, this valve skyrim mod store is copping some flak |
| 06:57.10 | Imhothar2 | prices are all over the place |
| 06:57.24 | Ivnedar_ | 25% to dev, 30% to valve, 45% to bethesda |
| 06:57.37 | Imhothar2 | is that official now? |
| 06:57.52 | Imhothar2 | and yeah, it is ridiculous |
| 06:57.56 | Ivnedar_ | yeah, the valve/bethesda split was uncertain but been confirmed |
| 06:58.21 | Imhothar2 | valve taking 30% is normal procedure, but 45% to bethesda? that's nuts |
| 06:58.49 | Ivnedar_ | all the fun of copied mods too |
| 06:58.55 | Imhothar2 | yeah |
| 06:58.56 | Ivnedar_ | people listing mods they copied off other mods |
| 06:59.06 | Imhothar2 | and suddenly all the nexus mods made it to steam⦠|
| 06:59.08 | Ivnedar_ | and the $100 horse genetalia mod |
| 06:59.11 | ZorbaTHut | yeah it's kind of ridiculous given that bethesda already *has* a cut - namely, the people who wouldn't have bought the game without the mods |
| 06:59.24 | Imhothar2 | the horse thing is an obvious hommage to the horse armor dlc |
| 06:59.30 | Ivnedar_ | yup :) |
| 06:59.39 | ZorbaTHut | I generally think that paid mods is an interesting and reasonable idea, but those prices, man. what were they thinking. |
| 06:59.42 | Ivnedar_ | http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/33uplp/mods_and_steam/cqol9re |
| 06:59.50 | Ivnedar_ | gabe's being downvoted like crazy :) |
| 06:59.58 | Ivnedar_ | -2105 so far |
| 07:00.11 | Imhothar2 | some of the mods cost as much as an official DLC |
| 07:00.23 | Imhothar2 | with far less work put in it |
| 07:00.23 | ZorbaTHut | imhothar, in fairness, some mods are more extensive than official DLC |
| 07:00.30 | Ivnedar_ | On Thursday I was flying back from LA. When I landed, I had 3,500 new messages. Hmmm. Looks like we did something to piss off the Internet. |
| 07:00.45 | ZorbaTHut | and mods are intrinsically going to have a much smaller userbase. that means higher costs per user. |
| 07:00.51 | Ivnedar_ | yeah, for sure, complete retexture of the whole game vs some banding for a horse |
| 07:01.54 | Imhothar2 | well that all can mean only one thing: HL 3 confirmed |
| 07:02.04 | ZorbaTHut | so, yeah. interesting idea, but I'm kind of pissed off at valve for botching the launch this badly |
| 07:02.05 | Imhothar2 | obviously |
| 07:02.06 | Ivnedar_ | I wonder if there are legal issues for bethesda in future too. Now they're effectively endorsing all mods |
| 07:02.14 | Ivnedar_ | They'd have to support them to some degree |
| 07:02.18 | Ivnedar_ | and they can't use any content in them |
| 07:02.21 | ZorbaTHut | it'd be as if Neal Stephenson's Clang were the first big Kickstarter game >_< |
| 07:02.41 | Imhothar2 | it's weird. they could in theory change the TOS and require all mods to go through steam only |
| 07:03.01 | ZorbaTHut | yeah that'd result in blowback like you've never seen :V |
| 07:03.06 | Ivnedar_ | skyrim isn't steam only though is it? |
| 07:03.22 | ZorbaTHut | plus it's unenforcable |
| 07:03.26 | Ivnedar_ | oh, it may be, wow, didn't realise it |
| 07:03.31 | ZorbaTHut | you need some way for people to develop their own mods |
| 07:03.40 | ZorbaTHut | whatever that system is, people could use the same system to distribute mods outside steam |
| 07:03.56 | Imhothar2 | they don't *need* to |
| 07:03.57 | Ivnedar_ | yeah, issue dev certs, then the certs get bundled with the mods |
| 07:04.22 | ZorbaTHut | doesn't work - people just start distributing unbundled mods as well |
| 07:04.38 | Ivnedar_ | yeah |
| 07:04.40 | Imhothar2 | force all mods to get signed through an online service when bundled and make the client reject unsigned ones. it's all possible and doable if they really wanted to |
| 07:04.44 | ZorbaTHut | and if you try to charge a dev fee you're just throwing gas on the fire |
| 07:04.58 | ZorbaTHut | imhothar, there has to be a path for self-signed or unsigned mods, otherwise people can't write mods |
| 07:05.10 | ZorbaTHut | it's like how Apple can't prevent people from distributing iOS apps in sourcecode form |
| 07:05.34 | Imhothar2 | there doesn't *have* to be if the mod dev editor can do the signing |
| 07:05.44 | Ivnedar_ | have the online signing system look for plagiarised mods |
| 07:05.52 | ZorbaTHut | they kind of manage it via the dev fee, but if you think *this* blowup is bad, just imagine the blowup if they tried to impose a mandatory dev fee after release |
| 07:05.59 | Ivnedar_ | then have another service that pads the code with trash to bypass it |
| 07:06.06 | Imhothar2 | using an online service, so the private key isn't known |
| 07:06.27 | Ivnedar_ | I could send you the source and you could get it signed yourself |
| 07:06.43 | Imhothar2 | very end-user friendly |
| 07:06.45 | ZorbaTHut | I will also point out that the success rate of single-player offline-capable DRM is approximately zero. it'd be a matter of days before all that signing stuff was bypassed. |
| 07:07.03 | ZorbaTHut | and that acts as a *real* nice gateway for people to just start pirating stuff. bad idea on many levels :V |
| 07:07.08 | Imhothar2 | not if people still wanted to use it with steam for whatever reason |
| 07:07.27 | Ivnedar_ | heh, have the steam drm code enforce which addons your account can load |
| 07:07.42 | Ivnedar_ | turn the mods into dlc |
| 07:07.47 | Ivnedar_ | no idea how you'd develope them |
| 07:07.59 | Imhothar2 | anyway, we shall see. modders have to sort out their fucking prices first, that's for sure. Well, after Bethesda stops being a greedy bastard |
| 07:08.08 | Ivnedar_ | sandpit version of the game for development maybe |
| 07:08.24 | ZorbaTHut | I'm also pissed off because if they'd just waited a year, UE4 would have gotten people used to it |
| 07:08.31 | ZorbaTHut | but no, bethesda has to go poison the well :( |
| 07:08.45 | Imhothar2 | it's really strange that Bethesda is jumping on this. People were writing mods for decades without paying them and now they want 45% wtf |
| 07:08.52 | Ivnedar_ | I wonder which direction the push is, from valve or bethesda |
| 07:09.06 | ZorbaTHut | imhothar, well, keep in mind there also was no way to get paid for mods |
| 07:09.16 | ZorbaTHut | the theory is that this might develop a large ecosystem of professionally-developed mods |
| 07:09.32 | Imhothar2 | sure, but they took it form one extreme to the other |
| 07:09.45 | Ivnedar_ | It'd also help bethesda, they can release half finished games and let the modders fix it! :D |
| 07:10.09 | Imhothar2 | I though that's what they're already doing |
| 07:10.13 | ZorbaTHut | don't worry, bethesda's way ahead of you on that. they've been practicing for a decade :V |
| 07:10.29 | Ivnedar_ | I had my tongue firmly in cheek when I pressed enter :D |
| 07:11.15 | Imhothar2 | I just see this spiraling out of control very quickly with people releasing mini mods with just a weapon model for a buck or two |
| 07:11.18 | Ivnedar_ | next release will just have a title and a games engine, up to the players to build the storyline and art assets |
| 07:11.24 | Imhothar2 | and then a hundred variations of said weapon |
| 07:11.43 | Ivnedar_ | "But my sword has a ruby in the hilt, not an emerald, it's totally different!" |
| 07:11.47 | ZorbaTHut | I think there'll be a ton of flailing in pricing models |
| 07:11.56 | ZorbaTHut | it'll be like how the early iOS market was full of a bunch of weirdness |
| 07:12.11 | ZorbaTHut | it will eventually stabilize into something sensible |
| 07:12.44 | ZorbaTHut | it might also cause some really bizarre side effects in existing f2p markets - people might object to paying $10 for a lol skin when they can get a skyrim character model for 25c or whatever. we'll see. |
| 07:12.47 | Imhothar2 | it won't because there is far less control and the higher the prices the happier Bethesda |
| 07:13.08 | Ivnedar_ | Still no word on who's going to do the store curation |
| 07:13.14 | Ivnedar_ | at the moment it appears to be anything goes |
| 07:13.16 | Imhothar2 | "curation"? |
| 07:13.21 | Imhothar2 | We're talking Valve |
| 07:13.37 | Imhothar2 | Who had to get YouTubers to do their curation |
| 07:15.11 | Imhothar2 | it's weird |
| 07:15.16 | Ivnedar_ | ooh, offer a service that takes existing mods and bundles them into a "completely new" mod and uploads it |
| 07:15.20 | Ivnedar_ | takes 2% |
| 07:15.34 | Imhothar2 | I can see mod subscriptions drop like bricks now with people not being sure about things |
| 07:18.21 | Imhothar2 | The way this went it wouldn't surprise me if people wouldn't buy paid mods at all. There are still places in the world where people only download free apps |
| 07:19.05 | Imhothar2 | All those 79 cent apps sell *really* badly in Europe |
| 07:22.50 | Imhothar2 | I really think Bethesda have to lower their cut. I really don't see how anyone there thought that couldn't backlash |
| 07:23.54 | Imhothar2 | I wouldn't be surprised if some companies now would participate but actually not take a cut at all as a PR thing |
| 07:33.52 | Ivnedar_ | take 5% and you'll get an income stream that didn't exist before and get good PR for it, may help sales of next game |
| 07:34.51 | Imhothar2 | game development industry is slowly becoming a synonym for greed |
| 07:51.17 | ZorbaTHut | every business has people in it who are in it to make money. gamedev is a bit unique in that it has a lot of people in it who are just in it for art |
| 07:51.37 | ZorbaTHut | find the games you love and buy 'em. life continues. |
| 07:52.15 | Ivnedar_ | but but, broken age act 2 doesn't come out til later this week :( |
| 07:52.34 | ZorbaTHut | is that actually coming out? nice |
| 07:53.02 | Ivnedar_ | no word of it being pushed back again yet, so I'm hoping the april 28/29 turns out to be true :) |
| 07:53.03 | ZorbaTHut | guess I'll play it once I get to Br* in my Steam library |
| 07:53.20 | ZorbaTHut | which will be a little slow because Bioshock 2 and 3 are before it, but hey |
| 07:53.29 | Ivnedar_ | How far through AaAaAA!!! are you? |
| 07:53.30 | Ivnedar_ | :) |
| 07:54.13 | Ivnedar_ | I'm playing through Remember Me on the ps3. I'm up to the last chapter and am finally getting a hang of the controls ... |
| 07:54.17 | ZorbaTHut | I played it a bunch, but ended up dropping it after a while. I've found I'm really not into games that involve optimizing a score |
| 07:54.49 | ZorbaTHut | hah, reminds me of Ni no Kuni. I finally figured out how to make the battle system fun . . . in the final boss battle |
| 07:54.50 | ZorbaTHut | wellllp |
| 07:54.59 | Ivnedar_ | One fight scene I was stuck on for 3-4 months |
| 07:55.13 | Ivnedar_ | 30-60s and dead, reloads midfight, repeat |
| 07:55.15 | Imhothar2 | KSP is getting released next week |
| 07:55.26 | Ivnedar_ | I should finish Ni no Kuni |
| 07:55.35 | Ivnedar_ | I think I'm around 80% through or something, maybe more |
| 07:55.44 | ZorbaTHut | I don't regret the time I spent on it, but it was overall not what I was hoping for |
| 07:56.06 | Ivnedar_ | I also need to finish tales of xillia 2, lightning returns |
| 07:56.14 | Ivnedar_ | I have a habit of getting to 80-90% through the game |
| 07:56.28 | Ivnedar_ | and wanting to get 100% of stuff done before stepping over the "you can't return from this point" line |
| 07:56.36 | Ivnedar_ | which usually results in me moving onto another game |
| 07:57.21 | ZorbaTHut | that's one reason I love new game+ |
| 07:57.25 | ZorbaTHut | lets me finish the game, then get stuff |
| 07:57.34 | ZorbaTHut | although TWEWY had an incredibly elegant system for that |
| 07:57.44 | ZorbaTHut | man seriously I wish the game industry would learn from TWEWY |
| 07:58.34 | Ivnedar_ | I think I have 3 days left on lightning returns, done most open world stuff, except for the few boss fights that are impossible on first play through |
| 07:58.47 | Ivnedar_ | a few multi-day missions left to complete |
| 07:59.28 | Ivnedar_ | so many missions failed due to not realising I needed to do something by some time/day |
| 08:02.29 | Ivnedar_ | My love/hate relationship with final fantasy games. I love discovering stuff on my own, but I also hate discovering that I've missed something :) |
| 08:02.47 | ZorbaTHut | and they've gotten really bad about that, too |
| 08:02.57 | ZorbaTHut | I think it was FF12 where getting one ultimate weapon essentially required you to consult a walkthrough |
| 08:03.29 | ZorbaTHut | and that's *before* finishing the game, otherwise you'd put the game into a state where it was permanently unavailable (except for a 1/10k drop chance in one place) |
| 08:07.23 | Ivnedar_ | was that the one that you needed to avoid looting some crate near the start of the game? |
| 08:07.35 | Ivnedar_ | so that it'd be there at the end of the game when you're back there |
| 08:08.04 | Ivnedar_ | loot it at the start and there's some gil and a potion in it |
| 08:08.13 | Ivnedar_ | loot it at the end of the game and it's some ultimate weapon |
| 08:08.39 | ZorbaTHut | no, worse than that - there were *four* crates you needed to avoid looting |
| 08:08.44 | ZorbaTHut | and each one of them was just in the middle of the pathway |
| 08:08.49 | Ivnedar_ | *nod* |
| 08:08.53 | ZorbaTHut | and then there was a 4x4 array of crates in one place, and you had to loot specific ones |
| 08:09.00 | ZorbaTHut | and then one of them would just magically have the ultimate weapon in it |
| 08:09.06 | ZorbaTHut | there was literally no ingame hint whatseoever |
| 08:12.12 | Ivnedar_ | one fight in remember me, I'd been stuck on for weeks. turns out I was an idiot. |
| 08:12.49 | Ivnedar_ | lots of invisible mobs that beat on me, can't hit them while they're invisible. just enough visible mobs to beat up to get enough resources to stun/reveal the invisible ones. they're stunned long enough to kill half of them |
| 08:13.00 | Ivnedar_ | then a 3 minute cooldown until you can stun them again |
| 08:13.21 | Ivnedar_ | I kept getting down to 1 left with no way to generate more resources to stun it to finish it off |
| 08:13.50 | Ivnedar_ | loading screen hints had been telling me to make sure I hit the spotlight to reveal mobs. I kept thinking "that'd be nice if there was one around here" |
| 08:13.58 | Ivnedar_ | turns out there was one right in front of me the whole time ... |
| 08:14.06 | ZorbaTHut | oops |
| 08:14.55 | Ivnedar_ | big orange/white flashing button saying spotlight |
| 08:15.11 | Ivnedar_ | I'd been so focussed on how I was doing the fight that I'd ignored everything outside of that :) |
| 08:23.29 | *** join/#riftuidev Naifu (515c640d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.81.92.100.13) |
| 12:00.41 | *** join/#riftuidev Teht (~Teht@168.244.29.204) |
| 15:02.47 | Repo | nkadvisorsearch: naifu * r54 (5 files in 2 directories): added earring to slot selection |
| 15:08.00 | Repo | nkadvisorsearch: naifu V2.2.0 * r55 : Tagging as V2.2.0 |
| 15:36.25 | *** join/#riftuidev Noshei (~quassel@c-24-9-171-99.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 21:03.59 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar (~Imhothar@ppp-93-104-177-126.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 23:26.41 | Ivnedar_ | hee hee, reading about someone who has an employee with the surname of Null |