| 00:02.41 | Noshei | Imhothar1: I assume the match was all over the place there? |
| 00:03.02 | Imhothar1 | yeah, very hard not to notice |
| 00:03.19 | Noshei | yeah was a pretty stunning match all things considered |
| 00:03.28 | Noshei | not often you have a score that one sided |
| 00:03.31 | Imhothar1 | didn't watch it though |
| 00:03.37 | Noshei | neither did I |
| 00:03.48 | Noshei | I was in a trial all day |
| 00:03.48 | Imhothar1 | + in a WCS semifinal |
| 00:04.04 | Noshei | yeah |
| 00:04.36 | Noshei | I wouldn't be surprised if that was one of the highest goal differentials in a WCS semi |
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| 00:17.24 | Imhothar1 | sunday will be interesting |
| 00:17.44 | Imhothar1 | maybe I'll even convince myself to actually watch it |
| 00:17.58 | Noshei | I will certainly be watching |
| 00:18.22 | Noshei | I'm guessing it will be netherlands that will be the other team in the final |
| 00:19.19 | Imhothar1 | well someone just posted this and it's too fitting not to pass on |
| 00:19.20 | Imhothar1 | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuxghiwjgQc |
| 00:19.29 | Imhothar1 | it's from two very successful German comedians |
| 00:19.59 | Imhothar1 | quite old too. think from WCS 2006 here |
| 00:20.45 | Noshei | oh I thought everyone here would like this: http://ifunny.mobi/i/A35rt6B72 |
| 00:22.05 | Imhothar1 | it's interesting how most people here don't actually care the female team has won more WCS cups than the males |
| 00:23.08 | Noshei | Imhothar1: whos female team? |
| 00:23.10 | Imhothar1 | quite sad the female WCS doesn't get nearly as much attention. even though one would think it's more pleasant to watch |
| 00:23.13 | Imhothar1 | ours |
| 00:24.31 | Noshei | wikipedia says the german womens team has won 2 world cups |
| 00:24.48 | Noshei | the mens team has won 3 |
| 00:24.58 | Imhothar1 | oh huh |
| 00:25.20 | Imhothar1 | weird where did I get that from |
| 00:25.30 | Ivnedar | were you thinking of the usa team? |
| 00:25.39 | Ivnedar | haven't they won a lot more? |
| 00:25.48 | Imhothar1 | also twice |
| 00:26.01 | Noshei | Imhothar1: I think 2 or at least 1 of the mens teams wins was as West Germany |
| 00:26.36 | Noshei | yeah 2 of them were credited as West Germany |
| 00:26.47 | Ivnedar | well, I guess you could argue that they've both lost less often than their male counterparts :) |
| 00:26.53 | Imhothar1 | technically they were all West Germany |
| 00:27.07 | Imhothar1 | last was 1990 |
| 00:27.23 | ZorbaTHut | it is unfortunately hard to overstate the effect of testosterone on athletic performance. most people, as it turns out, want to watch impressive games, and it's pretty much impossible for women's teams to match up in terms of sheer power and speed |
| 00:27.52 | Imhothar1 | maybe not power and speed but certainly technique |
| 00:27.57 | Noshei | Imhothar1: you are correct |
| 00:28.39 | Noshei | ^about all 3 being west germany |
| 00:28.40 | Imhothar1 | well everything else really. teamplay, coordination, creativity etc |
| 00:28.43 | ZorbaTHut | as an example, the Canadian olympic women's ice hockey team is one of the best in the world. At home, they train by competing in a highschool men's league. They tend to lose. Genetics is fuckin' harsh. |
| 00:29.31 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, they definitely have that - don't get me wrong, they're a bunch of super-dedicated athletes - it's just missing that edge |
| 00:30.38 | Imhothar1 | though about power, there's not that much needed in soccer as it's much less body contact than e.g. ice hockey. and I'm pretty sure those girls can kick the ball as far as they men |
| 00:34.14 | Noshei | Imhothar1: I think power in soccer results more in the speed the ball travels rather than the distance |
| 00:34.29 | Imhothar1 | that's the same |
| 00:34.54 | Imhothar1 | won't fly far if you don't kick it hard |
| 00:35.29 | Imhothar1 | bar inclination |
| 00:36.48 | Noshei | well soccer is less about kicking the ball great distances and more about getting it to a specific location at a precise time |
| 00:37.10 | Noshei | so if you can get the ball to the same location faster that is where extra power would come in |
| 00:37.31 | Imhothar1 | again, it's the same. if you can kick a ball very far, it has a higher initial velocity |
| 00:38.09 | Imhothar1 | getting it to the right location is finesse and there is no gender disparity there after appropriate training |
| 00:40.29 | Noshei | I'm fairly sure there is a power discrepancy between the 2 |
| 00:40.47 | Noshei | men and women's soccer that is (at the international level) |
| 00:41.21 | Noshei | I think this can best be scene in set pieces |
| 00:41.23 | Imhothar1 | not at the distances necessary on a soccer field after the training those people had |
| 00:42.02 | Imhothar1 | female goalkeepers get the ball to the other side of the field just as well |
| 00:42.21 | Noshei | I would disagree, I think you will find that men are able to score goals from further distances in general |
| 00:43.39 | Noshei | which is where power would be the most evident |
| 00:47.29 | Imhothar1 | I'm not saying there's not a difference. Just that the distances involved aren't significant enough. Goals are rarely shot from a long distance anyway |
| 00:49.50 | Imhothar1 | but I'm no expert so I better shut up now |
| 00:54.37 | Noshei | OMG firefall is finally going to be released |
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| 04:37.52 | Noshei | hey ZorbaTHut can you pass this along to the right person / people |
| 04:37.53 | Noshei | http://i.imgur.com/F3mP0Es.png |
| 04:38.11 | Noshei | I get that same error when ever I try to sign into the trion support site |
| 04:40.25 | Noshei | I've tested on both IE (11.0.9600.17126) and chrome (35.0.1916.153 m) |
| 04:41.26 | Noshei | well im off to bed, see you all tomorrow. |
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| 06:16.15 | Ivnedar | hrrm, kinda assumed that you'd need to auth again to purchase something in glyph |
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| 12:17.54 | Noshei | hey ZorbaTHut did you see my message i included your name in last night? |
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| 15:10.10 | ZorbaTHut | noshei, yep, sent it off to appropriate people |
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| 15:46.08 | Imhothar1 | ZorbaTHut: what parts of boost did you use for Frames the most? |
| 15:47.37 | ZorbaTHut | I think the big thing I rely on right now is bimap |
| 15:47.58 | ZorbaTHut | yeah in fact I think that might be the only thing I'm using atm |
| 15:48.31 | Imhothar1 | hmm haven't found that many uses for bimap yet, I'm more of a vector person |
| 15:49.04 | ZorbaTHut | they're both useful. in the case of bimap, I need a lookup from key to cached value, then an easy way to tear down the lookup once the cached value's refcount drops to 0 |
| 15:49.45 | Imhothar1 | vector of weak_ptr with a custom deleter |
| 15:50.33 | Imhothar1 | well that's what I'd do |
| 15:50.42 | ZorbaTHut | that makes it a lot harder to insert new cache items in the midde |
| 15:51.07 | Imhothar1 | nope, the vector only stores the weak_ptr objects, not the pointee |
| 15:51.56 | Imhothar1 | there's many ways to do it of course |
| 15:51.58 | ZorbaTHut | no, I mean, you still have to search for the item by key. and in this case the key is a string, not an index, so you'd need to keep it sorted |
| 15:52.05 | ZorbaTHut | which is slow on a vector if you need to insert things in the middle |
| 15:52.13 | Imhothar1 | "slow" is relative |
| 15:52.43 | ZorbaTHut | true. I'm expecting some degenerate cases with a few thousand items that can semi-frequently change, so for me, it's an issue |
| 15:52.43 | Imhothar1 | vector usually dwarfs node based containers in performance due to cache locality |
| 15:53.16 | Imhothar1 | that's why there are things like flat_set and flat_multiset in boost |
| 15:53.45 | ZorbaTHut | honestly if anything I'm probably going to be dumping bimap, game studios often don't like boost |
| 15:54.04 | Imhothar1 | "not invented here"-syndrom? |
| 15:54.41 | ZorbaTHut | binary bloat has been a problem. might not be an issue on the newst console generation, but when your entire address space is 32mb, you don't want 5mb of that taken up with template instantiations |
| 15:55.07 | Imhothar1 | what are you developing for? |
| 15:55.33 | ZorbaTHut | well, *personally*, I'm developing for every-platform eventually. the 32mb thing was back in the PS2 days, though it wouldn't surprise me if it's still a concern on ps3/xbox360 |
| 15:59.35 | Imhothar1 | oh well |
| 16:00.03 | Imhothar1 | I find often people who use Landau notation for discussing whether to use vector or set tend to forget about the constant factor |
| 16:00.13 | Imhothar1 | and when it comes to cache misses that can be huge |
| 16:00.42 | ZorbaTHut | in some ways I think it's an attempt to avoid the worst case. I don't mind if I waste a few microseconds every frame on cache misses; I *do* mind if an operation suddenly takes five seconds |
| 16:01.04 | ZorbaTHut | at least in the game development industry, worst-case can be a much bigger issue than average-case |
| 16:01.09 | Imhothar1 | here's a talk y Herb Sutter going into this topic. There's other stuff too but the "array" section begins at about 23:30 http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2014/2-661 |
| 16:02.12 | Imhothar1 | if you have a (unordered)_(multi)set every node access is most likely a cache miss |
| 16:05.37 | Imhothar1 | but then, the only way to be sure is to try both and measure of course |
| 16:07.39 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, and right now it's not a major concern of mine :) |
| 16:08.12 | Imhothar1 | yeah, just saying. the time it takes to resolve a cache miss may be enough to compare hundreds of keys |
| 16:09.03 | ZorbaTHut | note that the keys are std::string's, so it's not quite that clear |
| 16:09.16 | Imhothar1 | hash them if they're immutable |
| 16:09.31 | ZorbaTHut | plan to someday, but someday is not today |
| 16:10.07 | Imhothar1 | should work even if mutable. and you only pay the indirection when doing the string compare |
| 16:11.09 | Imhothar1 | I certainly got lots of stuff working faster on iPhones and Androids by organising stuff in vectors and paying more attention to memory indirections |
| 16:11.30 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, right now I'm a lot more concerned with getting people using the library than with optimizations like that :) |
| 16:12.52 | Imhothar1 | true |
| 16:19.52 | Imhothar1 | btw talking games, he also gives an example of how it affected a game |
| 16:24.53 | Imhothar1 | and he touches the mid insert/delete argument |
| 16:28.58 | ZorbaTHut | I'll have to watch it later, though right now I gotta head off to work :V |
| 16:29.06 | Imhothar1 | have fun |
| 16:29.12 | Imhothar1 | hopefully not with Defiance |
| 16:29.15 | Imhothar1 | ! |
| 16:29.28 | ZorbaTHut | nope, Rift. Performance stuff, still. |
| 16:29.49 | Imhothar1 | well then you have a link to a work-related video ;) |
| 16:30.36 | ZorbaTHut | sadly it's all GPU-side rendering right now, so data structures are of less value than you'd expect ;) |
| 16:30.56 | Imhothar1 | data layout for shaders is important too! |
| 16:44.49 | Noshei | thanks for sending that off zorbathut, hopefully they can get it figured out. also if they need my email address for my account you can give that to them if you still have it. |
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| 17:12.32 | seebs | Someone recently pointed me at www.shadertoy.com, which is a sort of terrifying demonstration of just how ridiculous shaders can be now. |
| 17:15.54 | Imhothar1 | math ftw |
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| 21:12.29 | Imhothar1 | so its definite, I'll be at GDC Europe and gamescom (wed-fr) in case anyone cares |
| 21:14.23 | Imhothar1 | fun fact: since I'm freelance my name will probably be printed three times on the pass: name, company, title are all the same |
| 22:17.10 | seebs | So anyone reading your business card out loud will summon you? |
| 22:17.25 | Imhothar1 | if I had business cards, maybe |
| 22:17.41 | Imhothar1 | though I wouldn't write my name on it three time |
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| 23:42.19 | Chainik | I have a problem with the Tooltip Event, on some items it doesn't work.. :s (it works: http://picapple.de/images/2014/07/10/3cce20a.png ; doesn't work: http://picapple.de/images/2014/07/10/a80f175f.png) |
| 23:42.35 | Chainik | code: http://pastebin.com/9ih4tsiv |
| 23:55.08 | Noshei | Chainik: one thing to keep in mind about the event system is that events are NOT guarenteed to occur in any specific order |
| 23:55.18 | Imhothar1 | nothing you can do about that |
| 23:55.37 | Imhothar1 | it's two tooltips and the API is broken for that case |
| 23:55.44 | Imhothar1 | same with item comparison tooltips |
| 23:56.10 | Noshei | Imhothar1: I thought it stilled triggered the event though. |
| 23:56.24 | Imhothar1 | and it's spammed with nil targets right afterwards |
| 23:56.31 | Noshei | ah |
| 23:56.54 | Noshei | not the same issue I saw then of the event order being the problem |
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