| 00:04.20 | *** join/#riftuidev Noshei (~quassel@c-24-9-171-99.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 00:06.41 | Ivnedar | https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/324283889/potato-salad |
| 00:06.48 | Ivnedar | oddball kickstarter of the day |
| 00:09.53 | seebs | Art. |
| 00:24.35 | Noshei | so had to report for jury duty today, got selected for the trial |
| 00:26.33 | Ivnedar | how are you on irc then? :) |
| 00:26.39 | Ivnedar | or did it not go ahead? |
| 00:27.17 | seebs | Woah. |
| 00:27.25 | seebs | I've almost never heard of that happening. I think my mom did once. |
| 00:27.35 | seebs | I am virtually guaranteed never to get selected for a trial. |
| 00:27.59 | seebs | Two reasons: First, I'm autistic, and most lawyers HATE people who hear words rather than getting squishy and manipulatable impressions. Second, I know what a jury nullification is. |
| 00:35.00 | Noshei | Ivnedar: its 6:30pm atm for me, latest they will keep us in court is 5pm |
| 00:35.29 | Noshei | oh and this was the first time i've even been selected to report for jury duty even. |
| 00:38.45 | Ivnedar | Oh, I thought jury members got put up in a hotel or something :P |
| 00:40.36 | Noshei | Ivnedar: in this case only if you live over 70 miles one way from the court house |
| 00:40.56 | Noshei | and I think the other case would be if you are involved in a high profile case |
| 00:41.08 | Ivnedar | *nod* |
| 00:41.09 | Noshei | *high profile trial |
| 00:41.51 | Ivnedar | every time I've been summoned I call up the night before to see if I'm needed, get told not today, call tomorrow |
| 00:41.56 | Ivnedar | repeat for a week, duty done |
| 00:42.24 | Noshei | so I was selected for the us district court for colorado |
| 00:42.36 | Noshei | and they have jurors on call for an entire month |
| 00:42.40 | Ivnedar | ouch |
| 00:42.47 | Noshei | so you have to call in once a week for an entire month |
| 00:43.09 | Noshei | and even if you get called and then aren't selected for the jury, you have to continue calling in each week |
| 00:43.40 | ZorbaTHut | jury nullification is one of those fascinating situations where mere knowledge has a permanent and irrevocable effect on your life |
| 00:44.50 | Ivnedar | wow, didn't realise juries could do that |
| 00:45.32 | ZorbaTHut | yeah. it's not entirely clear if this is intentional, but it's a logical consequence of the laws surrounding the US justice system |
| 00:45.35 | Noshei | interestingly nulification wasn't mentioned at all during the jury selection |
| 00:45.38 | ZorbaTHut | (I make no claims about the justice systems in other countries) |
| 00:46.26 | ZorbaTHut | noshei, they'll never mention it by name, because then you might look it up. they'll say something like "do you believe there is any situation where a jury should vote not-guilty when the plaintiff is guilty" |
| 00:46.51 | Noshei | ah true, that was mentioned |
| 00:47.17 | Ivnedar | and if you say yes, you get excused by the prosecutor I guess? |
| 00:47.23 | ZorbaTHut | ivnedar, yep |
| 00:53.51 | seebs | Pretty much, yeah. It's a constitutional right that the courts are trying very hard to ban people from exercising. |
| 00:58.09 | Noshei | im slightly upset that I wont get to watch the world cup semi-finals |
| 01:06.49 | seebs | Huh. Unrelated to that, but. |
| 01:07.14 | seebs | Lua thing. It occurs to me that I fairly often want to iterate a table with non-sequential-integer keys in a consistent order. |
| 01:07.23 | seebs | So I have an idiom or three for that, which look like creating an index table. |
| 01:07.39 | seebs | And it occurs to me that I should at least *think* about whether I can make a proper iterator for it that can be looped on. |
| 01:10.29 | seebs | Yeah, I think I can. |
| 01:19.39 | ZorbaTHut | hey seebs, unrelated to trion, but - I'm putting together an open-source implementation of the basic ideas behind the Rift addon UI layer (though refined yet again because I'm apparently incapable of writing this library the same way twice). Any interest in proofreading the documentation? |
| 01:20.58 | ZorbaTHut | or anyone else who loves documentation, for that matter :V |
| 02:08.39 | seebs | I might in fact be interested in that! |
| 02:08.46 | Noshei | omg Ivnedar that kickstarter is just out of control |
| 02:08.59 | ZorbaTHut | I'll send you a link in a day or two, then, I'm doing a final proofread pass |
| 02:09.14 | Noshei | I saw that yesterday and it was at like $5,000. Not it is almost to 30k, WTF |
| 02:10.42 | seebs | Turns out the iterator is really easy to write. |
| 02:11.32 | seebs | function table_iter(tab, idxtab) |
| 02:11.33 | seebs | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:11.35 | seebs | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:11.37 | seebs | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:11.39 | seebs | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:11.41 | seebs | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:11.43 | seebs | end |
| 02:11.49 | seebs | Assumes you've already made an index table, but I could make one automatically if idxtab is nil. |
| 02:13.33 | Noshei | sometimes people amaze me with their stupidity |
| 02:13.44 | Noshei | http://forums.riftgame.com/technical-discussions/addon-api-development/268435-addon-luapad-addon-tutorials.html |
| 02:14.30 | seebs | heh |
| 03:15.15 | *** join/#riftuidev purl (ibot@rikers.org) |
| 03:15.15 | *** topic/#riftuidev is http://pastebin.com for code snippets || PIL: http://www.lua.org/pil || Rift AddOn Policy: http://t.co/7xXd4LL || AddOn Wiki: wiki.riftui.com/ || this channel is logged, via purl || Happy Pi day! |
| 03:39.32 | ZorbaTHut | well, documentation's up! http://www.framesui.com/docs/v0.2/ all commentary is welcome |
| 03:39.48 | Noshei | omg |
| 03:39.57 | Noshei | the fucking weather right now! |
| 03:40.03 | ZorbaTHut | note that I don't have the pre-built archive set up yet that the documentation talks about, but, soonish |
| 03:43.07 | *** join/#riftuidev Noshei_ (~quassel@c-24-9-171-99.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 03:43.14 | Noshei_ | omg |
| 03:43.39 | Noshei_ | I'm pretty sure there might have been a tornado nearish to me |
| 03:50.19 | Noshei | ZorbaTHut: 3 of the buttons on the top dont toggle when you navigate to that page, Getting Started, Basics, and Reference files |
| 03:52.09 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, I'm still fighting with Doxygen :/ |
| 03:52.18 | ZorbaTHut | it is not particularly polished |
| 03:52.50 | Noshei | ah |
| 03:53.08 | Noshei | gah colorado thunderstorms!!! |
| 03:54.21 | Noshei | in the span of the past 20 minutes it went from, oh look theres a storam WAY over there, to HOLY SHIT IM GONNA DIE, to oh look theres a storm way over there (180 degrees the opposite direction as before). |
| 04:42.30 | Ivnedar | ah the fun of that moment when a big mess of code that "will never need to support unicode strings" suddenly does |
| 04:58.53 | Torhal | Ivnedar: At least there's no such thing as Unicode sounds... |
| 04:58.54 | Torhal | :D |
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| 12:36.52 | Noshei | ok this will be interesting. |
| 12:37.46 | Noshei | going to try and use googles chrome remote desktop app to access my xomputer remotely today. from the court house. |
| 12:38.21 | Imhothar1 | court house? |
| 12:38.40 | Noshei | in fact. im typing this from my phone remoted into my computer. though im still going ovrr my local wifi |
| 12:39.35 | Noshei | imhothar1 im on the jury for a trial |
| 12:39.51 | Imhothar1 | eww |
| 12:40.31 | Imhothar1 | forgot that's a thing |
| 12:40.49 | Noshei | i dont mind, though not getting a full weeks pay kinda sucks |
| 12:41.24 | Imhothar1 | well if you ask me the entire system itself is just stupid |
| 12:41.37 | Ivnedar | you don't get full pay? |
| 12:41.44 | Noshei | I'm only going to be able to work about 20 hours this week rather than the normal 40. |
| 12:42.33 | Noshei | no ivnedar. the court pays $40/day, which is far less than i would normally make. |
| 12:42.55 | Imhothar1 | I don't see the rationale of having a bunch of average people with no background in psyhoclogy, criminology, law or forensics decide over someone's fate |
| 12:43.10 | Ivnedar | ah, my work tells us not to accept court payment and just pays us for a normal day |
| 12:43.55 | Noshei | the idea is that your fate is decided by your piers and not by the government |
| 12:44.08 | Imhothar1 | I get that but it's still stupid |
| 12:44.18 | Noshei | ah youre a lucky one, ivnedar |
| 12:44.28 | Imhothar1 | it may have been valid 200 years ago when the average joe knew as much as a judge about the relevatn sciences |
| 12:45.14 | Noshei | anways time to leave, might be baco later if i can srill connect over 4g |
| 12:50.48 | Imhothar1 | am I the only one who thinks civilian juries are a bad idea? |
| 12:58.22 | seebs | Quite possibly? |
| 12:58.34 | Imhothar1 | oh well |
| 12:58.53 | seebs | It's checks-and-balances. |
| 12:59.13 | seebs | We accept that it does not work perfectly, but it prevents a large class of extremely well-known and much more severe flaws. |
| 12:59.34 | Imhothar1 | like? |
| 13:00.13 | seebs | Highly Abusable. |
| 13:00.40 | seebs | So, for instance, gosh, what a coincidence that the all-landed-gentry juries ALWAYS seem to find that the person who owns land is innocent of all wrongdoing. |
| 13:01.27 | seebs | Having some point at which just any old random person can come in and say "hang on, what the hell is that" makes it much harder to game the system. You can't tell in advance whom you'd have to bribe, you can't be sure they'll take bribes, and so on. |
| 13:01.35 | Imhothar1 | which again doesn't really apply to modren times |
| 13:01.52 | Imhothar1 | at least the gentry thing |
| 13:02.04 | seebs | But analogous things do. It's a really bad idea to have a small pool of people get to make all the legal decisions and everyone else can't. |
| 13:02.14 | seebs | I mean, s/gentry/white/ |
| 13:03.47 | seebs | I've seen plenty of systems try to make a small pool of unaccountable decision-makers work, and it doesn't. |
| 13:04.18 | Imhothar1 | well ok, I probably wasn't clear enough. I'd rather have a group of judges who know what they're doing and it's their job to interpret the law instead of some random people who'd rather be somewhere else |
| 13:04.52 | seebs | In theory I might, but I have no confidence that it would work better, and I think it would likely work very badly. |
| 13:04.57 | seebs | For instance, we'd lose jury nullification. |
| 13:05.18 | seebs | I also note that in practice, judges frequently have absolutely no clue what they're talking about, when a case involves anything other than law, like science. |
| 13:05.29 | seebs | With the random people, you at least have a *chance* that one of them has ever encountered the topic before. |
| 13:06.07 | Imhothar1 | and how much time does that one person have to properly explain/convince the others of facts that aren't intuitive? |
| 13:07.02 | seebs | Potentially quite a while. But they also have the advantage that people will often accept "this is what I do for a living" as persuasive. |
| 13:07.13 | seebs | But they at least get to talk. Whereas if the judge has no clue what an internet is, you just lose. |
| 13:07.53 | Imhothar1 | there's the problem there is never "the" judge, it's always at least three and they hear advisors on the court |
| 13:08.16 | Imhothar1 | I obviously talk about how it works here |
| 13:10.04 | Imhothar1 | well it is one judge sometimes, but for minor offenses, and you always have the ability to elevate to a higher court |
| 13:10.57 | seebs | Yeah, but even three judges, you're still getting people all of whom are preselected for being from a pretty narrow subset of society. |
| 13:11.36 | Imhothar1 | the judge still has to justify his decision by citing the law, so he can't make arbitrary decisions villy-nilly |
| 13:11.39 | seebs | And often, people are very inaccurate at judging people who are not like them. |
| 13:12.28 | Imhothar1 | he is not supposed to judge the person but whether the crime happened as described by the prosecutors or not |
| 13:12.31 | seebs | I would rather be judged by a bunch of people several of whom are disabled than by a single very competent judge who isn't, if disability has any bearing at all on a case. |
| 13:13.00 | seebs | There's usually a fair amount of discretion in laws, though. And there should be, because laws are not complicated enough to model the world. |
| 13:14.11 | Imhothar1 | when deciding on the severity of the sentence, yeah. but if the law cannot apply the case or it's just not clearly defined the judge has to admit that |
| 13:15.31 | seebs | Which often turns out to hinge on whether the judge is evaluating the person accurately or not. |
| 13:15.50 | Imhothar1 | not the person, the evidence |
| 13:15.56 | seebs | The person, too. |
| 13:16.10 | seebs | That's always a part of the case, whether or not it always should be. |
| 13:16.40 | Imhothar1 | that's quite a degree of mistrust |
| 13:16.41 | seebs | Keep in mind that "motive" is a consideration in establishing criminal guilt, often. |
| 13:17.13 | seebs | Keep in mind that I have a psych background and my primary field of interest is the ways in which humans are irrational even when they are trying their best to be rational. |
| 13:17.47 | seebs | Well, lemme give you a nice concrete well-studied case. |
| 13:17.56 | seebs | There's a parole system, where parole decisions are made by judges. |
| 13:18.05 | Imhothar1 | I know, but the judge is not making a decision that applies to himself or people relevant to them, which makes it easier to be impartial |
| 13:18.12 | seebs | The judges are, presumably, reasonably well-educated in the laws and are making decisions as fairly as they can. |
| 13:18.20 | seebs | About 1/3 of parole requests are granted. |
| 13:18.46 | seebs | But, more specifically. About 2/3 of parole requests which are the first in a given block of hearings are granted, and almost none at the end of a block of hearings are granted. |
| 13:18.51 | seebs | Consistently. Across all the judges. |
| 13:19.09 | seebs | Because, in fact, judges aren't even remotely capable of applying a law consistently even when it's nice and trivial. |
| 13:20.06 | Imhothar1 | is just granting the request or releasing the person? |
| 13:21.23 | seebs | It's just granting the parole request. Which would result in them being released, though. |
| 13:21.36 | seebs | People who are tired from working for a while make decisions very differently. |
| 13:22.02 | seebs | People are, in general, incapable of rational evaluation of claims. They can sort of fake it with a lot of effort, but will still get it wrong pretty consistently. |
| 13:23.26 | Imhothar1 | that's what evidence is for, isn't it? |
| 13:23.35 | seebs | Absolutely the opposite. |
| 13:23.42 | seebs | That's what makes evidence mostly-irrelevant in practice. |
| 13:23.57 | seebs | Because your *interpretation* of the evidence is going to be >30% noise. |
| 13:25.02 | seebs | You could probably get "more accurate" rulings if you restricted the decision-making to autistics, but the outcomes wouldn't be very popular. :P |
| 13:28.50 | seebs | This is somewhat related to the major development in economics over the last 50 years or so, which is the realization that humans are not in general rational economic actors, so all the theories based on the assumption that they were, which kept predicting things that didn't happen, were sort of pointless. |
| 13:32.39 | Imhothar1 | well, global economics may have made things a bit too complicated for the human brain |
| 13:33.11 | Imhothar1 | anyway, sort of related, I just found out "judge" in cantonese is "Fat Goon (æ³å®)" |
| 13:43.17 | Imhothar1 | I am well aware that rationality is not our best developed trait. One can only hope that for someone who has to publicly justify their decision and can be accounted for it makes them pay more attention to what they're doing |
| 13:45.12 | Imhothar1 | there's always gonna be idiots who screw up, no matter the profession |
| 13:46.28 | Imhothar1 | well, not necessarily "idiots", you know what I mean |
| 13:48.00 | seebs | Oh, we're not talking about the complication level of global economics. We're talking really simple stuff. |
| 13:48.27 | seebs | Okay, for an example. Imagine a hypothetical game you can play, with rules like "flip a coin; heads you get $25, tails you get $50". |
| 13:48.39 | seebs | You can immediately determine that the "expected value" of one play of that game is $37.50. |
| 13:48.58 | seebs | Now, imagine that you make up a bunch of such games, and you make tokens for them. And you let people trade the tokens. |
| 13:49.21 | seebs | You might think that people would tend to trade towards higher expected value. Well, they *tend* to, but they don't do it consistently. |
| 13:49.36 | seebs | Now say you're allowed to make trades like "your token, plus $1, for my token". |
| 13:50.08 | seebs | You can come up with a pair of games such that, if you have one and someone else has the other, they will generally be willing to pay $1 to switch from the one they have to the one you have. |
| 13:50.18 | seebs | And then they will be willing to pay $1 to switch from the one they have to the one you have. |
| 13:50.29 | seebs | And if you do this a few times they realize that something has gone wrong, but they still think the one you have is better. |
| 13:53.23 | Noshei | looks like 4g is enough for this to work. |
| 13:53.44 | seebs | BTW, that same problem occurs with itemization in video games. |
| 13:54.05 | seebs | You can easily have two weapons such that most players will think that whichever one they don't have is an upgrade from the one they do have. |
| 13:58.24 | ZorbaTHut | hey seebs, got the still-unfinished documentation up - http://www.framesui.com/docs/v0.2/ |
| 14:09.53 | seebs | Cool! I am not sure when I will have free cycles. |
| 14:10.06 | seebs | I've been having sleep schedule issues, and then this week turned Complicated. But I am curious. |
| 14:40.16 | ZorbaTHut | Fair 'nuff. Want me to ping you about it some other time, or get to it once you get to it? |
| 14:41.57 | ZorbaTHut | (and good luck on the Complicated) |
| 14:51.11 | seebs | Ping me if I seem to have forgotten, if you would be so kind. |
| 14:51.45 | seebs | It's nothing bad, it's just that our regular D&D game got rescheduled and then it turned out to be rescheduled onto a friend's birthday and he wants to do a road trip someplace and I wanted to go but that means we have to move his thing to Saturday and he wants to do something else on his birthday and... |
| 14:51.47 | seebs | yeah one of those |
| 14:51.59 | seebs | Nothing involved is bad or dangerous, there's just too much of it. |
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| 20:43.45 | Imhothar1 | wow, really hard to miss the match's progress |
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