| 04:24.22 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar_ (~Imhothar@ppp-93-104-190-45.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 04:24.24 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar2 (~Adium@ppp-93-104-190-45.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 06:11.58 | *** join/#riftuidev NuSuey (uid3556@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pmgtqctjrvbgiftf) |
| 06:19.44 | *** join/#riftuidev Cairenn (~Owner@MMOI/Administratrix/Cairenn) |
| 06:19.44 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+o Cairenn] by ChanServ |
| 06:21.02 | Ivnedar | hrrm, interesting, upcoming zone pvp stuff in wow, if you kill someone, you loot the zone specific stuff from their inventory |
| 06:33.05 | *** join/#riftuidev Repo (~repo@76.164.170.2) |
| 07:55.31 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar (~Adium@p4FC55643.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 07:57.55 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar1 (~Adium@p4FC55643.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 10:27.57 | Ivnedar | http://stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks |
| 10:27.59 | Ivnedar | amusing rant :) |
| 11:11.22 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar (~Adium@p4FC55643.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 13:39.35 | *** join/#riftuidev Repo- (~repo@76.164.170.2) |
| 14:31.12 | *** join/#riftuidev Noshei (~quassel@c-24-9-171-99.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 14:59.39 | *** join/#riftuidev seebs (~seebs@home.seebs.net) |
| 14:59.41 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+o seebs] by ChanServ |
| 15:45.55 | ZorbaTHut | https://research.microsoft.com/en-us/people/mickens/thenightwatch.pdf is rather excellent too |
| 16:04.05 | Ivnedar | lol @ HCI code debugging |
| 17:04.40 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar (~Imhothar@ppp-93-104-190-45.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 17:24.33 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar1 (~Adium@ppp-93-104-190-45.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 17:26.36 | Imhothar1 | ZorbaTHut: do I really want to read an article from someone who introduces himself as a "highly trained academic researcher"? |
| 17:31.53 | Imhothar1 | oh I see |
| 17:39.49 | *** join/#riftuidev Thorarin (thorarin@D57DD135.static.ziggozakelijk.nl) |
| 18:38.23 | *** join/#riftuidev Neura (~neura@63-234-16-130.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 19:04.04 | *** join/#riftuidev Torhal (Torhal@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedb:9160) |
| 19:04.40 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar2 (~Adium@ppp-93-104-190-45.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 19:22.58 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+v Torhal] by ChanServ |
| 21:28.29 | Imhothar2 | hmm here's an interesting thought I read which argues that the automated LFG/LFR stuff brought in so much anonymity to WoW that it completely turned its social structure upside down and shifting its target audience. so instead of actively talking to people to get a group together, now everything is automated and anonymous and doesn't promote social interaction in the pug anymore (except stuff goes wrong) |
| 21:31.13 | Noshei | Imhothar2: having played wow when both were introduced, I would say that is completely true |
| 21:32.22 | Imhothar2 | yes it makes a lot of sense. before you had to get quite some dedication (depending on server) to get a group together and you played wiht people on your server, but then with the anonymity in there were no longer any consequences for being a dick |
| 21:33.30 | Imhothar2 | makes one wonder whether social exprience is more/less important than the automated grouping and content rushing |
| 21:35.36 | Noshei | I know for me the social aspect of mmo's is important to me and the automated systems kinda kill a large part of it. |
| 21:36.49 | Imhothar2 | yeah, but considering everyone is now expecting a similar system in every new MMORPG we probably won't get rid of the system anytime soon |
| 21:37.44 | Noshei | yeah |
| 21:39.42 | Imhothar2 | it also has quite an impact on game design. they had to make all the dungones easier so random groups were able to beat them |
| 21:40.10 | Imhothar2 | wiping is utterly unacceptable these days |
| 21:40.20 | Noshei | yeah |
| 22:51.45 | ZorbaTHut | I've been sort of wondering if a better solution is to remove the "random matchup" feature and turn it into basically an advertising board. instead of the game matching people, it adds you to a list that other people can see and invite you from |
| 23:05.37 | Noshei | ZorbaTHut: you mean like poe |
| 23:06.34 | Noshei | I would say that is a slightly better system, but it still removes the social interaction of a LFG chat system. |
| 23:06.40 | ZorbaTHut | I was actually thinking the reverse of that system - instead of "here are some groups you can join", make it "here are some people who want to join groups" |
| 23:18.33 | *** join/#riftuidev seebs (~seebs@home.seebs.net) |
| 23:18.33 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+o seebs] by ChanServ |
| 23:21.31 | Imhothar | if it has an automatic "add to group" button it wouldn't change much |
| 23:22.13 | Imhothar | wow that was some terrible English |
| 23:46.34 | seebs | DDO has a system like that. |
| 23:46.40 | seebs | You can post groups or join groups that have posted. |
| 23:47.01 | seebs | That said, I will say: I *vastly* prefer LFG tools to trying to organize groups. |
| 23:47.33 | seebs | In the entire time I played WoW prior to LFG, I think I successfully did maybe five dungeons ever, and I spent as much as six hours *trying* to get a group for a dungeon. |
| 23:47.37 | Ivnedar | I prefer the process, usually hate the result |
| 23:47.47 | seebs | I wonder. |
| 23:48.23 | seebs | FF14 added a thing where group members can vote on MVP status for the players in their randoms, and that seems to help. |
| 23:48.43 | seebs | I also wonder whether you could reduce the problems of "no one is okay with a wipe" by more clearly communicating that, no, wipes happen. |
| 23:48.47 | seebs | e.g., set a "par" for them. |
| 23:49.54 | Ivnedar | you'll usually end up with a mix of "person who just wants the instance done as quickly as possible and is competent", "person who wants to be carried through the instance as quickly as possible because that's what they pay a subscription for", "person who's first time there and is too scared to speak up, usually because of the former two types" |
| 23:50.11 | Imhothar | does it promote social interaction though? Before LFG people had to talk quite a lot in random groups. yet alone because it took so long to get the group together, so people were more motivated to finish the thing and cooperate more |
| 23:50.41 | Ivnedar | there's usually no talking in groups other than the "you're going to slow!" "you're going too fast!" "you noob" type tank/healer abuse |
| 23:51.11 | Ivnedar | social interaction in groups is seen as counter-productive |
| 23:51.21 | Imhothar | not before LFG |
| 23:51.34 | Ivnedar | Yeah, I was talking about the LFG era |
| 23:51.35 | Imhothar | you couldn't afford to just leave the group and be back in the dungeon 10 minutes later |
| 23:52.03 | Imhothar | so it was in everyone's interest to succeed as a team |
| 23:52.53 | Ivnedar | yeah, and the process of building the group in the first place was inherently social |
| 23:52.56 | Imhothar | I remember discussing tactics and other random stuff in pre-lfg groups, actually talking to people as you usually spent quite a lot time together |
| 23:53.38 | Imhothar | now all of this has completely disappeared in pugs |
| 23:54.20 | Imhothar | the other 4 guys are just means to an end |
| 23:54.44 | Ivnedar | yeah, they're not real people |
| 23:54.54 | seebs | Thing is, "promote social interaction" is a very risky design goal, because it means that players who aren't all that social-skills-oriented can get screwed, and mostly trying to force people into things tends to work poorly. |
| 23:55.11 | Imhothar | they could be AI controlled mooks |
| 23:55.15 | seebs | And... I mean, I know a fair number of people who play MMOs, all of whom tend to view the other players in LFG as Real People. |
| 23:55.30 | seebs | I think the difference here may be that the people who don't view the others as real people *weren't doing the content* before. |
| 23:55.57 | seebs | I have also noticed that if I interact socially with people in an LFG group, they generally run with it and are friendly. |
| 23:56.06 | Imhothar | well, before LFG there was no other choice but to talk to people |
| 23:57.18 | Imhothar | the group building process itself was usually already a team building progress |
| 23:57.22 | seebs | Yeah. But that meant that I couldn't do the content at all except on days when I felt like trying to spend significant time trying to initiate social interactions with people, which is particularly high-stress for me, and in general it wasn't going to result in actually even trying the content. |
| 23:57.31 | Imhothar | and ice breaker |
| 23:57.37 | seebs | It was a >90% effective barrier to play. |
| 23:57.56 | Imhothar | it's all pros and cons |
| 23:59.08 | Imhothar | though I do get your point I also wonder why one would choose an MMO when initiating social interactions is so stressful. the entire genre is based around interacting with others |
| 23:59.35 | seebs | My experience so far has been that LFG is overwhelmingly an improvement in the available game experience. I don't think the other system produced a larger number of positive experiences, I think it just produced fewer experiences overall with some selection pressure against poor experiences. |
| 23:59.45 | seebs | Initiating social interaction and having social interaction aren't the same thing. |
| 23:59.48 | Imhothar | granted WoW has a ton of single player content, even more after Cataclysm |
| 23:59.58 | seebs | I don't mind talking to people. I dislike having to approach people I don't know in the first place. |