| 01:02.45 | Ivnedar | http://forums.riftgame.com/general-discussions/general-discussion/418304-how-check-when-accept-rez-14.html#post4757263 |
| 01:02.48 | Ivnedar | so true :D |
| 01:19.43 | Amadeus- | Ivnedar, did you try it? The Houston64.exe? Anyway, yea, I have an addon somewhere that basically just fixes like 10 bugs from a previous beta ..hehe. |
| 01:19.49 | Amadeus- | including one that is a memory leak |
| 01:20.11 | Ivnedar | nah, I'm at work, will try it when I get home |
| 01:20.18 | Amadeus- | ESO won't last in my opinion ..it's just a sequel to Skyrim with other people |
| 01:20.22 | Ivnedar | public addon or one you wrote? |
| 01:20.36 | Amadeus- | public ...although someone sent it to me because they changed the forum software and all attachments were lost |
| 01:20.50 | Amadeus- | there are like 4-5 really nice addons to have right now |
| 01:20.57 | Ivnedar | Wasn't the appeal of the elder scrolls franchise that you play this super powerful chosen one, unique in the world? |
| 01:20.59 | Amadeus- | one that sells junk any time you open merchant is REALLY nice |
| 01:21.07 | Amadeus- | Ivnedar, EXACTLY |
| 01:21.08 | Ivnedar | and with ESO, you're that person, but so is everyone else running around |
| 01:21.11 | Amadeus- | yea |
| 01:21.21 | Amadeus- | I think once people realize that it's not Skyrim ....it'll die away |
| 01:21.23 | Ivnedar | Yeah, I'm using JunkIt and Radar |
| 01:21.35 | Ivnedar | And CraftingGridDiscoverablesFix |
| 01:21.53 | Amadeus- | The BijiPlates is nice |
| 01:22.03 | Ivnedar | oh yeah, I'm using that too |
| 01:22.23 | Ivnedar | Playing a chua engineer scientist at the moment, loving it |
| 01:22.26 | Amadeus- | and I use another one that someone had to send me called ChatLogEx ...forget why ..I think it was because it made it so the chat window wouldn't completely disappear or something |
| 01:22.42 | Amadeus- | yea, I'm a human ...err ..whatever the thief is |
| 01:22.47 | Amadeus- | forget the names |
| 01:22.56 | Ivnedar | I may not rip through the enemies as quickly as others, but I'm taking on mobs 2-3 levels higher than me ranked strong |
| 01:23.14 | Amadeus- | but, yea, be sure to check out that Houston application ..and do File->Open Carbine Addon ...really cool that the game is so addon friendly |
| 01:23.32 | Amadeus- | yea, I was thinking next beta weekend I'll try some other classes to amek sure I want to paly this one at release |
| 01:23.37 | Amadeus- | I played fighter a little bit once too |
| 01:23.58 | Ivnedar | it's cool that it's addon friendly, but I wonder if it's going to bite them at release |
| 01:24.29 | Ivnedar | imagine if pvp became a game of "who has the lowest ping and best bot addon" |
| 01:25.17 | Ivnedar | get an addon that watches leaderboards or heal meters, picks preferential targets and locks onto them |
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| 04:29.36 | Ivnedar | http://imgur.com/gallery/Rb8Nn |
| 04:29.42 | Ivnedar | May be of interest to particular Trion staff |
| 04:30.08 | Ivnedar | titled "Corgi in every season" |
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| 08:38.16 | Amadeus- | Ivnedar, did you check out Houston...or you not home yet? |
| 09:32.09 | Ivnedar | just got home |
| 09:48.15 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar_ (~Imhothar@ppp-188-174-91-97.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 10:25.21 | Ivnedar | Amadeus-: wow, this is pretty awesome |
| 10:34.56 | Ivnedar | ZorbaTHut: did you see this? |
| 10:38.23 | Ivnedar | Amadeus-: http://wildstarnasa.com/ |
| 10:38.31 | Ivnedar | there's that that looks interesting too |
| 10:44.53 | Ivnedar | I wonder how hard it'd be to repurpose it for Rift :D |
| 10:44.58 | Ivnedar | Houston that is |
| 11:07.03 | Amadeus- | Ivnedar, yea ...I wish NCSoft would release the source to Houston so people could develop it as a stand-alone Lua editor. Whoever designed/wrote is probably a genius based on how clean it is. |
| 11:07.22 | Amadeus- | really shows how important the addon system is to them that someone or a team took the resources/time to create that. |
| 11:12.13 | Ivnedar | they'd have to if the decision was made early on that the UI was to be done in the same environment as player addons |
| 11:12.25 | Ivnedar | the developers would need the toolset |
| 11:13.42 | Amadeus- | I thought I heard someone say once that there would eventually be some sort of registration for addons that would have to be approved before usable in the game. However, either that was a dream/lie, or they're not doing it during beta. |
| 11:14.07 | Amadeus- | BUT, it could be that they only allow some functions to work when they're flagged/registered as 'game' addons ...versus custom player addons |
| 11:14.14 | Amadeus- | which would deal with exploit issues |
| 11:14.38 | Amadeus- | ....or, maybe they're just not doing anything in the in-game addons that shouldn't be allowed with player adons |
| 11:14.40 | Amadeus- | addons |
| 11:15.24 | Amadeus- | which...is how a game should be designed anyway. |
| 11:30.42 | seebs | Maybe. There's a lot of functionality which is orders of magnitude easier to design if you don't have to design it to handle a hostile user. |
| 11:31.00 | seebs | ... Although I think FF14's "running unvalidated SQL queries from users" might have been pushing that envelope *just a little*. |
| 11:31.21 | Ivnedar | pretty cool to see my wife so keen on addon development after looking throught he newbies guide to apollo and houston |
| 11:31.37 | Ivnedar | seebs: lol |
| 11:32.15 | seebs | I have been ignoring wildstar because of my general theory that I never want to invest time, energy, money, or emotion in anything ncsoft has the option of killing. |
| 11:35.30 | Ivnedar | interested in looking at the addon IDE or not worth it? |
| 11:35.50 | Imhothar_ | If I was still interested in Rift, maybe |
| 11:35.54 | Ivnedar | article about, not the IDE itself |
| 11:36.06 | Ivnedar | since it needs the game files to function |
| 11:36.30 | Ivnedar | http://wildstarnasa.com/2014/01/a-complete-newbies-guide-to-apollo-and-houston/ if anyone's interested |
| 11:37.24 | Ivnedar | ignore that it's for wildstar |
| 11:37.43 | Imhothar_ | there's also a WoW Addon Studio somewhere built with the Visual Studio Integrated Shell |
| 11:38.00 | Imhothar_ | think It's (is/was) on codeplex |
| 11:38.25 | Ivnedar | the form editor is what my wife's most keen on I think |
| 11:38.38 | Imhothar_ | the WoW Studio had a graphical UI designer as well |
| 11:39.26 | Imhothar_ | can't describe how much I missed a declarative UI language for Rift |
| 11:39.59 | Imhothar_ | the template mechanic was brilliant |
| 11:40.26 | Imhothar_ | talking about WoW itself now, not the adodn studio |
| 11:41.07 | Imhothar_ | though some may argue XML is not the greatest tool for describing the structure of a UI it made so many things so much easier compared to creating all frames procedurally |
| 11:47.52 | Ivnedar | hrrm, vague memories of that in wow |
| 11:48.01 | Ivnedar | I didn't do much with addons back then |
| 11:51.36 | Imhothar_ | it was quite great. especially the templating. you could mark any UI element in the xml as a template and could then create multiple instances of it. either from XML or code |
| 12:22.01 | seebs | Oh, I didn't know that. |
| 12:22.22 | seebs | I sort of hated the XML stuff for the parts I was mostly dealing with, I much preferred procedural generation. But templates could be neat, yeah. |
| 12:22.51 | seebs | Huh. You know, it would be pretty possible, in Rift, to make a thing which parsed something similar-to-XML and made frames from it. |
| 12:23.10 | Imhothar_ | it would probably get killed by the watchdog pretty soon |
| 12:23.35 | Imhothar_ | if done naively |
| 12:23.58 | Ivnedar | make a Library.XMLParser :D |
| 12:24.07 | Imhothar_ | iirc there's a xml library for Lua but it depends on some native code |
| 12:24.36 | Ivnedar | that turns it into nested tables |
| 12:24.47 | Ivnedar | save it in savevars once parsed and a timestamp |
| 12:26.38 | seebs | Well, thus "similar-to-XML". |
| 12:35.33 | Imhothar_ | I did something similar for LibWiki |
| 12:35.48 | Imhothar_ | I wanted the pages to be created mostly declaratively |
| 12:36.03 | Imhothar_ | don't remember how well that turned out thouhg |
| 12:36.56 | Imhothar_ | LibWiki is what ApiBrowser is built on if you wonder |
| 13:11.46 | ZorbaTHut | yeah at some point I'll maybe end up writing a GUI editor for Frames |
| 13:11.50 | ZorbaTHut | it's certainly something needed |
| 13:12.13 | Imhothar_ | it reduces the amount of save/reloadui/edit cycles |
| 13:13.21 | Ivnedar | having a starting point of "now you have a basic window with all the normal window features and these events attached to it" could mean more addon developers |
| 13:13.39 | Ivnedar | RiftWindow++ type thing |
| 13:14.04 | Ivnedar | with close button, draggable, resizable |
| 13:15.13 | Ivnedar | I guess the hope was that one would be made? |
| 13:15.25 | ZorbaTHut | I really do wish I'd been able to write the rendering code in DX :/ but, welp |
| 13:15.57 | Imhothar_ | instead of scaleform? |
| 13:16.07 | ZorbaTHut | yup |
| 13:16.44 | Imhothar_ | I was wondering why Starcraft switched to Scaleform instead of the WoW framework. Maybe it was the Lua 5.1 freeze |
| 13:17.12 | ZorbaTHut | it does a lot of stuff for you, but . . . it doesn't really do a lot of stuff *nicely* for you |
| 13:17.28 | ZorbaTHut | it's a buggy reimplementation of a buggy API that was never intended for games. hell, that was never intended for hardware renderers. |
| 13:17.40 | ZorbaTHut | so there's a lot of stuff Scaleform does that just flat-out has to be implemented in software |
| 13:19.33 | Imhothar_ | it felt strange learning about SC2 using Scaleform. They only put tons of work into the UI framework for WoW so I expected they would continue/evolve it for SC2 |
| 13:30.21 | ZorbaTHut | I think the problem is that UIs suck to write. Nobody really likes doing it. |
| 13:45.19 | Ivnedar | ZorbaTHut: if I have my achievement pane open when any of the objectives update, the client locks up for 2-3s now |
| 13:45.30 | Ivnedar | not as bad as when I first open it, but annoying when it's in combat |
| 13:45.49 | Ivnedar | curious what it's doing when it's updating |
| 13:46.08 | Ivnedar | even if the thing that updates isn't in a displayed category |
| 13:47.58 | ZorbaTHut | probably rebuilding the entire UI data |
| 13:49.23 | Ivnedar | ah |
| 13:58.48 | Ivnedar | guessing that any change flags that ui as dirty and rebuilds next? |
| 13:59.10 | Ivnedar | and it can't just rebuild the bit that changed |
| 13:59.16 | Imhothar_ | if it was flagging it as dirty it wouldn't have to rebuild what isn't visible |
| 13:59.44 | Ivnedar | it would if that flag was for the whole achievement ui |
| 13:59.59 | Imhothar_ | then it's probably just listening to game events the same way addons are |
| 14:00.12 | Imhothar_ | and doing immediate work in the event handler |
| 14:00.26 | Imhothar_ | without a watchdog breathing down it's neck |
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| 14:00.31 | Ivnedar | and bypassing watchdog |
| 14:00.32 | Ivnedar | yeah :) |
| 14:01.11 | Ivnedar | one of those things that would be more work than was worth it when people were topping out at 5k achievement points |
| 14:01.31 | Ivnedar | but the ui has 5-10x more things in it now |
| 14:02.18 | Imhothar_ | yeah, no idea how the RiftUI does it. The WoW achievments frame alwyas recreated/reused the achievemtn list when you changed the category |
| 14:03.02 | Ivnedar | got that issue with a system at work. external vendor came in and built a system to manage our cisco call manager (voip platform) |
| 14:03.56 | Ivnedar | they didn't see the point in doing any delta import/export work as it was quick enough to do a full import/export when there were 200 phones on it |
| 14:04.09 | Ivnedar | full = 20 mins, delta = 5 mins |
| 14:04.14 | Ivnedar | doing it once every 3 hours |
| 14:04.21 | Ivnedar | we're now up to the full sync taking 2 hours |
| 14:04.25 | Ivnedar | delta still 5 mins |
| 14:04.46 | ZorbaTHut | ivnedar, actually I think it just straight-up rebuilds it, no dirty bit involved |
| 14:05.03 | Ivnedar | I assume it ignores rebuild events while rebuilding |
| 14:05.10 | Ivnedar | I wonder if I could get chain updates going |
| 14:05.17 | Imhothar_ | what's a rebuild event? |
| 14:05.32 | ZorbaTHut | it's entirely possible that if you managed to update two objectives at the same time, it would pause for twice as long |
| 14:05.34 | Ivnedar | any event that triggers a rebuild? |
| 14:05.45 | ZorbaTHut | imhothar, anything changes regarding your achievements --> rebuild entire achievement UI data |
| 14:06.16 | Imhothar_ | ZorbaTHut that's what I thought, the term rebuild was confusing me |
| 14:06.56 | Imhothar_ | it sounded like the game would tell the UI to rebuild the achievements UI, which would be rather weird |
| 14:07.14 | Imhothar_ | instead of having events like addons do |
| 14:07.35 | Ivnedar | if it had an event though, it could update just the change |
| 14:07.44 | ZorbaTHut | the internal UI system is quite different from the addon system - most communication between C++ and Scaleform are actually direct function calls |
| 14:07.46 | Imhothar_ | that's more work to implement |
| 14:08.38 | Ivnedar | so the entry point may just take a complete achievement dataset? |
| 14:09.07 | Ivnedar | anything changes and that object gets passed in the complete data again? |
| 14:09.08 | ZorbaTHut | ivnedar, almost - generally the way it works is a reset function, followed by possibly thousands of function calls to rebuild the entire dataset |
| 14:09.10 | Imhothar_ | whether it's a push or event pull doesn't matter if both rebuild everything |
| 14:09.22 | ZorbaTHut | building a composite datastructure from C++ and sending it to Scaleform is pretty awkward |
| 14:09.41 | ZorbaTHut | it's the kind of thing that performed reasonably well back when we had a small number of achievements and may not be working so well now :V |
| 14:09.47 | Ivnedar | yeah :( |
| 14:10.07 | Imhothar_ | O(2^n) ftw |
| 14:10.11 | Ivnedar | I may end up unbinding achievement pane key and using rattus more |
| 14:10.41 | Ivnedar | hrrm, was I dreaming or was there mention of adding achievement tracking to the quest watcher? |
| 14:11.11 | Ivnedar | 'cause that'd solve my issues, especially if the addon api allowed for managing it like quests currently |
| 14:11.31 | Ivnedar | switch zone = incomplete zone acheivements added to watcher |
| 14:11.35 | ZorbaTHut | oh hey, I bet that's what that confusing feature request was |
| 14:11.45 | ZorbaTHut | Hmm. So . . . maybe! And if so, I'll see if I can rig up the API to deal with it properly |
| 14:11.54 | Ivnedar | pretty sure it was mentioned in a livestream |
| 14:11.56 | Ivnedar | let me look |
| 14:12.04 | Ivnedar | you had a feature request come in? |
| 14:12.25 | Ivnedar | internal I mean, not from players, 'cause they've probably asked over and over :D |
| 14:13.22 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, it was "we've added achievement linking, support it in addon system", which confused me because achievement chat linking has been in for years - I implemented it so I know this very well |
| 14:13.28 | ZorbaTHut | but I bet it's achievement *tracking* |
| 14:13.30 | Ivnedar | yeah |
| 14:13.33 | Ivnedar | that'll be it |
| 14:13.41 | Ivnedar | so many Q&A sessions with daglar lately |
| 14:13.45 | Ivnedar | trying to find the one I remember |
| 14:13.52 | Ivnedar | .64-bit Optimisation .not currently on the roadmap.. |
| 14:13.53 | Ivnedar | hee hee |
| 14:13.54 | ZorbaTHut | anyway, no promises, I'm trying to juggle defiance and rift, but it shouldn't be too hard |
| 14:14.14 | ZorbaTHut | yeah 64-bit support for Rift is pretty pointless |
| 14:14.37 | Ivnedar | many people have it in their heads that moving to 64 bit will solve all problems |
| 14:15.01 | Imhothar_ | well... the ABI certainly can speed things up, even if you don't use more memory |
| 14:15.18 | Ivnedar | ALL problems! |
| 14:15.23 | Imhothar_ | 24 registers to pass your parameters instead of 4 |
| 14:15.43 | ZorbaTHut | imhothar, it can, but I've rarely seen situations where it's a massive improvement |
| 14:15.52 | ZorbaTHut | and we don't have all that many functions that take a ton of parameters anyway |
| 14:16.02 | Imhothar_ | more param registers means less memory access means less stalling |
| 14:16.20 | Ivnedar | aha, the new UI stuff is coming in 2.7 |
| 14:16.31 | Ivnedar | 2.7 is early may |
| 14:16.32 | Imhothar_ | it's not just parameters though, you can keep more stuff in registers during a function execution |
| 14:16.38 | Ivnedar | some of the content is coming in 1.5 weeks though |
| 14:16.50 | Ivnedar | so don't know the timeframe on the achievement tracking in quest tracker |
| 14:16.54 | Imhothar_ | even if you get stuff from the store buffer it's more cycles than reading a register |
| 14:17.49 | Imhothar_ | then, with a virtually limitless virtual memory (hah!) the way a game can handle it's resource files is a revolution |
| 14:20.01 | Ivnedar | http://riftgrate.com/2014/03/28/livestream-summary-28th-march-2014/ for a recap of the livestream |
| 14:20.10 | Ivnedar | under the Achievement Tracking and Searching section |
| 14:20.33 | Ivnedar | tracking dots added next to achievements, clicking on it adds to quest tracker, same as the quest ones do |
| 14:21.06 | Ivnedar | quests up top, achievements down below |
| 14:21.12 | Ivnedar | still the same cap on displayed stickies |
| 14:24.12 | Ivnedar | that'll be interesting, where would you put it? under *.Quest.* or *.Achievement.* |
| 14:24.28 | Ivnedar | 'cause it no longer clearly fits into either |
| 14:25.16 | Ivnedar | Unless you just have Command.Achieveemnt.Watch(achievement,flag) and let the backend bump out existing quests/achievements |
| 14:26.18 | Ivnedar | and a .track and .watch on Inspect.Achievement.Detail() |
| 14:26.35 | Ivnedar | since there's no way to query the contents of the tracker as it is |
| 14:26.52 | ZorbaTHut | yeah I think that's what I'll do. The behavior of bumping out old watches is already left undefined |
| 14:27.22 | ZorbaTHut | if I was writing it today I'd probably make *.Tracker.Watch(), but so it goes |
| 14:28.17 | Ivnedar | could add it in, and make the existing one a convenience routine |
| 14:28.29 | ZorbaTHut | if I end up doing a major refactoring, maybe |
| 14:29.13 | Ivnedar | Command.Quest.Watch(id,flag) could still exist, but point at the same backend? |
| 14:29.26 | Ivnedar | so code wouldn't need to change, though I guess then the api starts getting cluttered |
| 14:29.44 | ZorbaTHut | yep, I'd rather keep the API cleaner for now |
| 14:31.39 | Imhothar_ | backwards compatibility is for sissies anyway |
| 14:39.19 | Ivnedar | I was trying to work out who was talking on voice chat at the moment, realised I'd started the live stream video in the background :D |
| 14:47.55 | Imhothar_ | I hate it when some random blog page starts a video in the middle of the day just because it can |
| 14:48.40 | Ivnedar | nite all |
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