| 01:16.36 | seebs | BTW, whoever was wondering whether Gingers was still visiting that art assets thread, she just posted there. |
| 01:23.32 | Noshei | ugg, ahov posting trash in our forums |
| 01:25.34 | seebs | Wow, what a helpful and topical post. |
| 01:25.45 | Noshei | yeah I reported it and asked it to be removed |
| 01:25.52 | seebs | Did you see the announcement about forum policy changes? Most significant: If you piss off the forum mods, your *game* account can suffer. |
| 01:25.58 | Noshei | useless troll posts need to be removed |
| 01:26.00 | seebs | And yes, they are totally aware that this is your fifth forum account. |
| 01:26.21 | seebs | I am fine with the SomethingAwful solution, which is "USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST" visible on an occasional post. |
| 02:09.56 | *** join/#riftuidev seebs (~seebs@home.seebs.net) |
| 02:09.58 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+o seebs] by ChanServ |
| 02:31.58 | Ivnedar | Fixed a bug that would prevent players from properly passing lockout barriers while play cross-shard. |
| 02:32.03 | Ivnedar | Is that the volan zone event? |
| 02:32.53 | ZorbaTHut | probably, I think that's the only case where a lockout barrier is relevant cross-shard |
| 02:35.17 | Ivnedar | that was kinda amusing, when you could go to another shard and bypass the wall even when the event wasn't running |
| 02:35.27 | Ivnedar | and gather all the high repop resources behind the wall |
| 02:49.50 | seebs | You know, I haven't seen that weird URL Rejected thing from the Trion forums in months. |
| 02:50.34 | Ivnedar | http://forums.riftgame.com/general-discussions/general-discussion/417742-trion-youre-getting-closer-p2win-line.html#post4719794 |
| 02:50.37 | Ivnedar | That made me laugh :) |
| 02:52.44 | Ivnedar | wow, works out to be $350 for a full set of T1 armor |
| 02:53.11 | seebs | I just think it's funny that people are claiming that the existence of a bundle for the set is somehow P2W, but the original availability of the items wasn't. |
| 02:54.26 | Ivnedar | What I did was buy the cosmetic only desolate gear and enter a raid with +hit runes. I wasn't gear checked because the lead assumed I was in full desolate. |
| 02:54.29 | Ivnedar | ahahahahaha |
| 02:54.31 | Ivnedar | classic |
| 02:57.04 | Ivnedar | The rented gear idea sounds interesting |
| 03:05.38 | seebs | It sort of does, although I personally slightly dislike it. But that may just be because Laeris posted it. :P |
| 03:16.09 | Ivnedar | :D |
| 03:28.05 | Ivnedar | It could be tweaked a bit though, only the previous tier available for rent, costs maybe 10% of the credit purchase price and lasts a week |
| 03:28.54 | Ivnedar | possibly also giving you a T1 rental token for that week, trade in 10 tokens for one perma pieces |
| 03:29.12 | Ivnedar | so you can rent the previous tier til you either replace that item with a current tier drop, or you've paid it off |
| 04:18.27 | Noshei | Thorarin: kalert use Command.Message.Send or Broadcast with type tell? |
| 04:19.54 | Noshei | specifically for sharing |
| 04:21.44 | Ivnedar | .Send is still broken I assume? |
| 04:22.45 | Noshei | yeah |
| 06:12.17 | Alisu | morning |
| 06:13.16 | Alisu | well, from my point of view anyway, +2 GMT |
| 06:23.46 | *** join/#riftuidev Kaelten (Kaelten@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/WoWIFA/CurseStaff/kaelten) |
| 06:23.46 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+o Kaelten] by ChanServ |
| 06:27.29 | Thorarin | Noshei: for sharing it uses Send |
| 06:27.50 | Noshei | figured as much |
| 06:28.00 | Noshei | that would explain why sharing doesn't work |
| 06:28.18 | Noshei | since send is broken |
| 06:28.19 | Thorarin | I figured it would be fixed quickly :S |
| 06:28.34 | Alisu | how does the message system even work |
| 06:28.46 | Alisu | could it be it suffers of the same instability as the chat system recently? |
| 06:28.58 | Ivnedar | .Send hasn't worked since the chat system was replaced |
| 06:29.10 | Ivnedar | .Broadcast works but hits chat throttle |
| 06:29.19 | Ivnedar | from my testing |
| 06:29.25 | Noshei | broadcast with type tell doesn't work |
| 06:29.27 | Alisu | so yes, it is tied to the shat system |
| 06:29.35 | Ivnedar | yeah, it's part of chat system |
| 06:29.37 | Noshei | yeah it is Alisu |
| 06:29.40 | Ivnedar | if the chat system crashes, none of it works |
| 06:30.10 | Noshei | well I'm off to bed, night all |
| 06:30.15 | Ivnedar | nite :) |
| 06:30.47 | Thorarin | If broadcast with type tell doesn't work either, why does it matter what I use? :P |
| 06:30.53 | Alisu | hmm.. should I guess you reside few timezones over :o |
| 06:31.08 | Ivnedar | directed messages don't work |
| 06:31.55 | Thorarin | Well, it seems like an awful hack to send it to everyone and let the receiver decide if they want to act upon it :S |
| 06:32.14 | Ivnedar | I think his question was more of a "Are you using either of these methods, which are broken, or something else?" |
| 06:33.04 | Ivnedar | Yeah, probably easier to tell anyone who asks that it's not really something you can fix. It's something Trion broke and will hopefully look at some time |
| 06:33.04 | Thorarin | Well, that is the only thing I can think of, which means I'd have to change the format of the messages themselves |
| 06:33.12 | Thorarin | And then support it for eternity |
| 06:33.25 | Thorarin | Trion getting off its ass seems like a better option to me :P |
| 06:33.44 | Ivnedar | :D |
| 06:34.32 | Ivnedar | Other option is to broadcast it with the intended recipient at the start of the message and have recipients throw it away if it's not for them |
| 06:34.40 | Ivnedar | but that means everyone needs to upgrade |
| 06:34.47 | Ivnedar | and yeah, supporting it forever :( |
| 06:35.23 | Thorarin | Yeah that's what I meant with recipient deciding whether to act upon it |
| 06:35.28 | Ivnedar | ah, ok |
| 06:35.44 | Ivnedar | I was picturing everyone in raid getting it and having to close it if they didn't wanti t :D |
| 06:35.47 | Ivnedar | that'd be horrible |
| 06:35.55 | Alisu | that would be interesting :P |
| 06:36.17 | Thorarin | But it would also mean that I have to keep track of whether that person is in your guild |
| 06:36.39 | Ivnedar | spam it down every channel :D |
| 06:36.43 | Thorarin | Or basically through which channel he was discovered :P |
| 06:37.00 | Thorarin | Yeah, I bet that's going to improve things with the chat system :< |
| 06:37.07 | Thorarin | Let's all do that! :P |
| 06:37.27 | Ivnedar | Or, implement TCP over addon message! |
| 06:37.41 | Ivnedar | so we can ensure someone gets it and retransmit til they do |
| 06:38.01 | Thorarin | heh |
| 06:38.06 | Alisu | :) |
| 06:38.27 | Thorarin | Should also implement TLS then, to prevent man-in-the-middle attacks |
| 06:38.32 | Ivnedar | this is true |
| 06:38.48 | Ivnedar | I'm picturing ZorbaTHut rocking back and forth in his chair trying to make the bad images go away |
| 06:39.07 | Alisu | .. wonder the feasibility of man in the middle attack, at least for such content as karuul alert setting :o |
| 06:39.50 | Thorarin | We were talking about communication in general, or so I thought ;) |
| 06:40.02 | Alisu | I know :P |
| 06:40.20 | Alisu | anyway,what time zone is Zorba in? America? |
| 06:40.54 | Thorarin | Yes, but he seems to have pretty odd work times |
| 06:41.20 | Alisu | who hasn't.. |
| 06:41.51 | Thorarin | I dont :P |
| 06:42.20 | Thorarin | Okay... except for last Friday.. and last Monday... I see your point :< |
| 06:42.26 | Alisu | hmm.. neither do I, actually.. though my work is also strictly non computer.. |
| 06:43.35 | Ivnedar | ZorbaTHut isn't active in here while he's at work either |
| 06:43.43 | Thorarin | I wasn't actually required to work, but I got so annoyed by a colleague still not finishing something after 2 sprints that I ended up making a 13+ hour work day :/ |
| 06:44.18 | Ivnedar | I tend to be working whether I'm at work or home lately |
| 06:44.29 | Ivnedar | working at home just means fewer meetings :P |
| 06:45.31 | Thorarin | Yeah I tend to go home after 9 hours or so for change of scenery |
| 06:45.51 | Alisu | I get enough scenery during workday.. |
| 06:46.45 | Thorarin | Unfortunately not, unless you consider meeting rooms scenery :/ |
| 06:48.29 | Alisu | I'm postwoman :> |
| 06:48.57 | Thorarin | Well, plenty of outdoors at least :P |
| 06:49.13 | Alisu | yeah, in all funny Finnish weathers |
| 06:49.25 | Alisu | though recently I think America has got the worst of the winter |
| 06:49.26 | Thorarin | eep :) |
| 06:49.45 | Thorarin | Hasn't been much of a winter here in NL |
| 06:49.58 | Alisu | argh.. now the Thai spammer is hitting tech suppor forum |
| 06:50.01 | Thorarin | Mostly rain, gets annoying :P |
| 06:51.21 | Alisu | hey, you are the karuul alert guy, just now remembered what it was I was meaning to ask |
| 06:51.32 | Alisu | can we get rotateable textures any time soon? |
| 06:51.49 | Ivnedar | isn't that what canvas is for? |
| 06:51.53 | Alisu | yeah |
| 06:52.04 | Ivnedar | oh, in kalert, right |
| 06:52.11 | Alisu | ther transformation matrix makes it possible |
| 06:52.23 | Alisu | ivnedar, yeah.. I could edit it in myself I guess but.. |
| 06:52.34 | Alisu | someone else might like the feature as well |
| 06:52.37 | Thorarin | Never personally ever considered wanting to rotate them, but I suppose it's possible |
| 06:53.00 | Alisu | for various single direction textures, like arrows it kind of makes sense |
| 06:53.04 | Alisu | or at least, mirroring |
| 06:53.12 | Thorarin | Dunno if canvas performance makes it desirable tho |
| 06:53.15 | Alisu | that's also possible with canvas matrix |
| 06:53.50 | Alisu | I was asking about it earlier, zorba said it's as heavy as setbackground color for example |
| 06:54.09 | Alisu | I think it performs just well except at times you want to recreate the shape |
| 06:55.31 | Alisu | that is, I got the understanding the transformations are not count every time the frame is shown, just once when it's edited |
| 06:55.48 | Thorarin | I'll put it on the TODO list, but haven't been able to find any time lately :/ |
| 06:56.30 | Alisu | :> |
| 06:57.19 | Alisu | I guess actually the rotate is not so big thing, but the mirroring is |
| 06:57.42 | Alisu | because one basic block of gui graphics is the arch type |
| 06:58.43 | Alisu | the Utility.Matrix.Create doesn't create mirroring matrix but it's easy enough to write by hand |
| 06:59.14 | Alisu | for x axis mirroring it's {-1, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0} I think |
| 06:59.26 | Alisu | and for y, {1, 0, 0, 0, -1, 0} |
| 07:01.29 | Alisu | hmm, actually, yeah |
| 07:01.41 | Alisu | have to ask if we could also get Utility.Matrix.Multiply |
| 07:02.15 | Ivnedar | I think that utility was there as a starting point, until someone wrote a more detailed library for it |
| 07:03.03 | Alisu | well, the .Create already created readymade transformation matrix for certain type of transformations |
| 07:03.18 | Alisu | and yes, writing up function to make your own matrix multiplication is simple enough |
| 07:03.56 | Alisu | but if just that would be ready given, the need for complex library lessens a lot |
| 07:05.07 | Alisu | because, if the karuul would work with canvases, also the texture scaling has to be done "manually" |
| 07:06.06 | Alisu | If I had any idea how to do libraries I might be interested to do transformation library for canvas |
| 08:40.31 | Ivnedar | http://pastebin.com/jYcQinuS |
| 08:40.39 | Ivnedar | that was my one from a while ago |
| 08:42.50 | Alisu | mm, have to look it when I'm not mobile |
| 08:43.34 | Ivnedar | I then do stuff like m = Transform2:new(); m:Translate(x, y); m:Rotate(angle) |
| 08:43.34 | Ivnedar | etc |
| 08:47.45 | Alisu | add mirror :) |
| 08:47.53 | Ivnedar | Go for it :) |
| 08:48.08 | Ivnedar | It's not published anywhere, just used it on a gimmick addon I was playing with |
| 08:49.11 | Alisu | hmm, actually, for list of fairly simple linear trnsformations, I think it would be scale, translate, rotate, mirror and skew |
| 08:54.03 | Alisu | actually don't much see use for skew but might as well toss it in |
| 08:54.24 | Alisu | and if we could get colorblendig it would be happiness |
| 08:55.47 | Alisu | but anyway, implementing something like karuul alerts with canvas would give way more options to graphics placing |
| 09:15.51 | Alisu | by the way, maybe a stupid lua question. is foo.1 same as foo[1] or foo.["1"] |
| 09:16.05 | Ivnedar | foo.["1"] |
| 09:16.15 | Alisu | thought so.. |
| 09:16.27 | Alisu | so when using integer indexes, have to use the brackets |
| 09:42.08 | Ivnedar | oh yay, patron artifact vials track unstables now |
| 09:42.26 | Ivnedar | Riding around Ashora and the unstable icon popped up in ReDAR :D |
| 09:42.50 | Alisu | what are the artifact related patron bonuses? |
| 09:43.23 | Ivnedar | there's an artifact tracking vial in the daily patron charge thingo |
| 09:43.29 | Ivnedar | 30 mins of tracking artifacts |
| 09:43.49 | Alisu | is it tied to the extra exp? |
| 09:43.57 | Ivnedar | extra exp? |
| 09:44.08 | Ivnedar | It's part of Patron Abilities |
| 09:44.38 | Alisu | well, I'm silly person who likes to get forward in order.. and any extra exp knocks me out of yellow quests |
| 09:45.02 | Ivnedar | There's a 40% xp for 2 hours vial each day |
| 09:45.02 | Alisu | so while it's counter intuitive for most, I hate any extra exp |
| 09:45.06 | Ivnedar | you don't have to use them |
| 09:45.36 | Alisu | I can stash them for when I'm 60 and can hoard planar exp with them :) |
| 09:45.48 | Alisu | or are they saveable? |
| 09:45.54 | Ivnedar | they stack to 7 |
| 09:45.56 | Ivnedar | 1 per day |
| 09:46.04 | Alisu | but they don't perish? |
| 09:46.15 | Ivnedar | They're an ability with charges |
| 09:46.23 | Alisu | oh.. |
| 09:47.02 | Ivnedar | if your patron status lapses, they go away |
| 09:47.12 | Ivnedar | if you have 7 and daily reset happens, it stays at 7 |
| 09:47.31 | Alisu | ok |
| 09:49.33 | Alisu | and, unrelated, yay, my first and only published rift addon hit 30 downloads |
| 09:49.41 | Ivnedar | grats! :D |
| 09:49.43 | Alisu | yes, I know it's kind of modest but.. |
| 09:49.53 | Ivnedar | advertised it on the forums? |
| 09:50.16 | Alisu | I mentioned it in the thread of the guy who asked such functionality |
| 09:50.23 | Alisu | but didn't make separate post |
| 09:50.31 | Alisu | quest watch assistant |
| 09:50.52 | Alisu | should add couple more things to it though |
| 09:51.12 | Alisu | currently the only auto feature it has is autowatching zonequests |
| 09:51.31 | Alisu | I have planned at least autohide complete quests |
| 09:51.57 | Alisu | (those that are complete to be returned, obviously they disappear when actually returned |
| 09:52.15 | Alisu | and then autowatch quest advance |
| 09:52.37 | Alisu | so if someone wants to keep only few quests showing, it would always switch to relevant ones |
| 09:53.31 | Alisu | I'm not even wanting to do my own questlog, the nk guy has done quite nice for that |
| 09:53.54 | Alisu | but, to remove some hassle of having to pick what the default one shows |
| 11:27.12 | Alisu | .. arrays are pointers.. *headdesk* |
| 11:28.10 | Alisu | I have been wondering how to pass data between functions... but if I edit the contents of array passed as a parameter, the value will be edited everywhere I refer to that same array |
| 11:28.13 | Ivnedar | hrrm? |
| 11:28.17 | Alisu | got that right? |
| 11:28.27 | Ivnedar | yup |
| 11:28.34 | Ivnedar | passing in a reference |
| 11:28.51 | Alisu | sigh.. I'm making this harder for myself that it'd have to be |
| 11:29.25 | Alisu | then again, coding in my head during the post round is not the most optimal environment for test runs :P |
| 11:30.06 | Ivnedar | wonder if th servers will stay up when the event starts |
| 11:34.44 | Ivnedar | Awesome, Proteus stunned at 5 harpoons ... |
| 11:55.02 | Repo | dimension-tools: kikimora_ * r16 (7 files in 3 directories): - Rewrote Central point calculations. |
| 11:55.02 | Repo | - Made some small changes in Tribal Magic, to improve performance |
| 11:57.26 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar (~Imhothar@ppp-188-174-21-247.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 12:16.19 | Alisu | because all addons run on tribal magic? :o |
| 12:20.06 | Alisu | I assume that Mr repo is some kind of repository bot? |
| 12:21.43 | Ivnedar | yup yup :) |
| 12:22.37 | Alisu | I've yet to wrap my head around the concept of repositories.. even if I know on basic level what they are |
| 12:22.54 | Alisu | I use dropbox to swap my code from my desktop to my ipad |
| 12:23.17 | Alisu | um, yes, I'm a bad bad mac user :o |
| 12:23.41 | Alisu | then again, I'm more like, "everything goes" or "gotta catch them all" user |
| 12:24.01 | Alisu | luckily I don't have funds to have a good collection of different computers |
| 12:26.16 | Ivnedar | curseforge has a pretty good writeup of all things repository |
| 12:26.54 | Alisu | curseforge is kind of complicated :o |
| 12:27.19 | Alisu | I thought I had posted my addon to curse.com but somehow it's in planning state or something |
| 12:27.36 | Alisu | at least in riftui I know how to publish things.. |
| 12:28.20 | Ivnedar | you can use curseforge the same way, upload zip files |
| 12:28.32 | Alisu | that's what I did |
| 12:28.53 | Alisu | but it decided "based on the uploaded files" that my "project" was in "planning state" |
| 12:29.20 | Ivnedar | you'll need to pick the file you uploaded and change it to release |
| 12:29.40 | Alisu | hmmmm... |
| 12:30.00 | Alisu | have to look at that.. I suspect many potential users just look at curse, not at riftui |
| 13:48.30 | Imhothar | you normally don't need to manually "publish" anything on curse. the front page you write on curseforge is also shown on curse and as soon as you make a release package it gets updated on curse.com |
| 14:08.34 | *** join/#riftuidev Kaelten (Kaelten@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedb:9160) |
| 14:11.34 | *** join/#riftuidev Kaelten (Kaelten@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/WoWIFA/CurseStaff/kaelten) |
| 14:11.34 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+o Kaelten] by ChanServ |
| 14:20.37 | Alisu | I got my project out of planning state so now it shows in the main site |
| 14:21.15 | Alisu | however, turns out I also hadn't updated the most recent file version there, now itns in state of "needs approval" |
| 14:21.23 | Alisu | how long does it usually take? |
| 14:33.09 | Ivnedar | anywhere from 5 mins to a day |
| 14:33.12 | Ivnedar | I think it's a manual thing |
| 14:33.43 | Ivnedar | that's one big advantage of learning the repository stuff, you get to control your own releases without someone approving it |
| 14:54.12 | Alisu | oh, from repository it would go instantly? |
| 14:55.06 | Alisu | it's just that, it sounds big and scary and professional :o |
| 15:00.32 | Ivnedar | There's a packager that builds up the package and publishes it for you, usually a few seconds after you commit |
| 15:00.55 | Ivnedar | depending on the name of the tag, it treats it as alpha/beta/release |
| 15:01.08 | Alisu | another scarily professional word :o, 'commit' |
| 15:01.56 | Imhothar | addon development is serious business |
| 15:02.07 | Imhothar | with commits'n'stuff |
| 15:02.14 | ZorbaTHut | alisu, technically I'm in PST (as is all of Trion), but I have a sleep disorder that makes that bit of information a lot less useful than it would normally be |
| 15:02.23 | ZorbaTHut | for example it's 7am here and I'm probably going to bed at 10am or 11am |
| 15:03.11 | ZorbaTHut | seebs, managed to fix that bizarre ki rin bug :V thanks for the repro steps! |
| 15:03.40 | Ivnedar | ooh, with the glow changing depending on where you are? |
| 15:03.56 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, and I'm hoping this fixes one or two other similar bugs |
| 15:03.59 | Ivnedar | or the store display |
| 15:04.09 | ZorbaTHut | though, weirdly, not all bugs, but I can't justify the time on 'em right now :/ |
| 15:04.25 | ZorbaTHut | (probably couldn't technically justify the time on this one either, but I had a repro case and wanted to squash it) |
| 15:04.47 | Ivnedar | do you know if the engineers working on the chat system know that directed addon messages are still broken? |
| 15:05.11 | Ivnedar | or is that something you'd have to fix when you get the time? |
| 15:05.15 | ZorbaTHut | I do not know; unfortunately I'm at the part in my sleep cycle where I don't really see the other engineers |
| 15:05.26 | ZorbaTHut | I've pinged QA to do some tests and figure out what's actually broken |
| 15:05.40 | ZorbaTHut | I'll be referring it on to the chat dude once I figure out what the problem is, but it may end up on my plate |
| 15:06.31 | ZorbaTHut | along with apparently everything else under the sun :V |
| 15:06.32 | Ivnedar | messages sent to more than one person, eg. raid, guild, etc seem to work find (assuming you haven't hit throttle limit), but any directed to single player don't get through |
| 15:06.47 | ZorbaTHut | huh, weird. Well, nice that the group messages still work, at least |
| 15:14.26 | ZorbaTHut | oh, and I forget who it was who was asking about that vault issue, but I think I found a fix for that also - probably next week's patch assuming QA doesn't fail the fix |
| 15:15.53 | Alisu | and you fixed the low reso graphics as well :) |
| 15:16.03 | ZorbaTHut | oh, did I? nice, I didn't know that would do anything |
| 15:16.13 | Alisu | wonder if the flickering foliage I had was related to that |
| 15:16.14 | ZorbaTHut | let me guess, you've got about 4gb of RAM? |
| 15:16.19 | ZorbaTHut | shouldn't be, that'd be something else |
| 15:16.38 | Alisu | naah, I didn't have low reso problem, read the thread in forum though |
| 15:17.40 | Alisu | what I did have, the ground foliage, kept redrawing itself on oddperiods |
| 15:17.51 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, the only change is that the cutoff is now slightly lower - there may still be people grumbling about low resolution. and I'm gonna have to keep an eye on things and see if it has to be raised again :/ |
| 15:18.04 | *** join/#riftuidev Noshei (~quassel@c-24-9-171-99.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 15:18.12 | ZorbaTHut | ah, that's a weird one. I think I know what bug you're talking about - burned a day on it with no progress at all. it's mothballed until I can get back to it, if I ever do |
| 15:18.17 | Ivnedar | the redrawing ground clutter was one of the most jarring things I'd seen in a long time |
| 15:18.22 | Ivnedar | another reason why I have it off |
| 15:18.22 | ZorbaTHut | one of those bizarre heisenbugs that stops happening when you inspect it >_< |
| 15:18.35 | Alisu | yeah, wasn't too big issue, just something I noticed |
| 15:18.40 | Ivnedar | well, respawning more than redrawing |
| 15:18.50 | Alisu | with knowing there is host of problems with recent changes I just let it be |
| 15:18.54 | Ivnedar | since it disappears, then restarts at tiny and grows up to normal |
| 15:19.05 | ZorbaTHut | huh, odd, that's a variant I haven't seen before |
| 15:19.19 | Ivnedar | Riding around I'd have that happen every 10-20s |
| 15:19.25 | Alisu | another thing I actually send a bug report about is, the new shiny colored resource node minimap icons seem to be pinned from their topleft corner |
| 15:19.32 | Alisu | instead of their center |
| 15:19.45 | Alisu | makes the node seem to be some ways off.. |
| 15:20.14 | Alisu | makes things fun near ledges, also got some fish spots on dry land, if I believed the minimap :P |
| 15:20.23 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, I could believe that too - it's a recurring issue on the map |
| 15:20.52 | Ivnedar | hrrm, hadn't noticed the nodes not lining up for me |
| 15:21.16 | Alisu | I noticed it at least in ironspine, if that matters |
| 15:21.35 | Ivnedar | Try resource radar and see if that's out of alignment too? |
| 15:21.52 | Alisu | but since it seemed to fit nicely to the invisible topleft of supposedly rectangular grapphic, I assumed it's what it was |
| 15:22.10 | Alisu | I don't have resource radar, have to test it later |
| 15:22.39 | Ivnedar | It just takes the resource minimap icon info and display the type icon around the middle of the screen instead |
| 15:24.03 | Alisu | yeah I know about it, but wasn't something I desire so I didn't grab it |
| 15:24.12 | Ivnedar | ah, no worries then |
| 15:24.58 | Alisu | oh, and about the messages I was talking about yesterday, mentioned this earlier or, uhm, last night |
| 15:25.13 | Alisu | they seem to know very well where money comes from, or where it goes |
| 15:25.31 | Alisu | "you returned (quest name) for (money amount) |
| 15:25.50 | Alisu | "you sold (item name) for (vendor name) for (money amount) |
| 15:25.56 | Alisu | etc |
| 15:26.18 | Alisu | I also know they define when you have paid for making an auction, though don't remember the wording |
| 15:26.29 | Alisu | they are exactly the data I'd like to catch |
| 15:26.34 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, that's the purchased log - that'll be exposed in some manner along with the chat API |
| 15:26.42 | Alisu | yay :) |
| 15:27.52 | Alisu | and the graphics guy turned out to be graphics girl *blush* |
| 15:27.59 | Alisu | she answered to my forum post :) |
| 15:28.11 | Ivnedar | Gingers? |
| 15:28.17 | Alisu | yeah |
| 15:28.23 | Ivnedar | Ah good, you got a response |
| 15:28.48 | ZorbaTHut | yeah gingers is pretty cool |
| 15:28.58 | Alisu | yeah, said she's busy with other stuff but is looking for some spare time to give us graphics :) |
| 15:29.58 | Alisu | then again, I had to do the same "I'm actually she" correction earlier |
| 15:30.39 | Alisu | still can't understand why languages have to make the difference.. Finnish does not so it's hard time for me to even remember to pick witch term to use |
| 15:31.18 | Alisu | I end up using incorrect he/she even if I know full well who i talk about :o |
| 15:31.30 | Imhothar | and then there's languages where stuff (and people) are neutrums |
| 15:31.42 | Alisu | neutrum? |
| 15:31.52 | Imhothar | male, female, neutral |
| 15:32.09 | Alisu | well, finnish does't separate at all.. |
| 15:32.49 | Alisu | and our we have only one word for third persona, which can mean both he or she |
| 15:33.36 | Imhothar | in Czech the difference is only made in past tense |
| 15:33.59 | Imhothar | for verbs, that is. not for substantives |
| 15:34.34 | Imhothar | it always puzzled me why some lifeless things are female and others male and yet others neither |
| 15:36.11 | Imhothar | in German the sun is female, in Czech neutral and in Spanish male |
| 15:36.20 | Imhothar | the hell?! |
| 15:36.27 | Imhothar | it's a giant ball of fire |
| 15:36.40 | Ivnedar | definitely female then! |
| 15:40.15 | Alisu | hehe |
| 15:43.19 | Imhothar | I wonder who was the smartass in proto-mesopotamia who tought "hey let's designate random genders to lifeless stuff" was a great idea |
| 15:44.27 | Alisu | oh, about my quibs about professionalism, I kow addons are serious stuff and like it that way |
| 15:44.44 | Alisu | but the longer explanation is more complicated and maybe a bit silly |
| 15:45.02 | Alisu | I used to study computer science at university some ten years ago |
| 15:45.17 | Alisu | and lot of things I learned back then have come handy last weeks |
| 15:45.35 | Alisu | it helps that I used to try to learn a bit of everything |
| 15:45.40 | Imhothar | inside knowledge definitely helps |
| 15:45.58 | Alisu | but then stuff happened and I had to stop studyin and I became postman |
| 15:46.50 | Alisu | now getting a hand of a thread to a programming world, it's nice, fun, I've been way brighter mood when turning around code in my head.. |
| 15:46.58 | Alisu | makes me feel oddly nostalgic |
| 15:47.17 | Alisu | but also at the same time all of it serves as a reminder of what could have been |
| 15:47.34 | Alisu | so my feeling againgts it are kinda divided |
| 15:48.20 | Alisu | somewhat silly I guess but I'll use the woman card here :P |
| 15:48.41 | Imhothar | that's your one use per day used up |
| 15:49.20 | Alisu | theehe |
| 15:50.02 | Alisu | I like this league of gentlemen :) |
| 15:50.26 | Imhothar | just you wait |
| 15:51.00 | Imhothar | you've been here for only 2 days |
| 15:54.45 | Alisu | and? |
| 15:54.59 | Alisu | it can't get worse, only better |
| 15:55.06 | Imhothar | and my fail attempt at being funny, apparently |
| 16:02.43 | Alisu | sorre, me no understand funny :o |
| 16:02.53 | ZorbaTHut | keep in mind that coding is surprisingly easy to jump into professionally once you've got experience - there's a lot of people out there trying to get a job with college credentials and no experience |
| 16:03.03 | ZorbaTHut | but experience-and-no-college-credentials is often a much better hire |
| 16:03.25 | ZorbaTHut | so hey, if you don't enjoy being a postman, code a bunch of stuff and try to become a coder instead :) |
| 16:04.34 | Alisu | it's not as simple |
| 16:05.04 | Alisu | and to be honest, it seems my true skills would be in customer support anyway |
| 16:05.11 | ZorbaTHut | It's definitely not simple, but, well, such is life |
| 16:05.49 | Alisu | problem is the step to leave a permanent job behind for maybe funnier job is big one |
| 16:06.26 | ZorbaTHut | oh yeah definitely |
| 16:06.30 | Alisu | if I owned a house or apartment or something maybe I could consider, but having to pay rent.. I'd have to be sure of the new work befoe I would change |
| 16:06.53 | ZorbaTHut | if you've got spare time, and you want to do it, I'd recommend coding in your spare time. That said, it'll be a lot of hours. |
| 16:07.14 | Alisu | I have done infodesk stuff in local overblown lanparties though.. like Assembly if someone's heard of it |
| 16:07.46 | ZorbaTHut | ah yeah, that's one of the enormous ones, isn't it? |
| 16:07.56 | Alisu | yeah :) |
| 16:08.09 | Alisu | I kinda meant that "overblown" part |
| 16:08.15 | ZorbaTHut | if I wasn't on the wrong side of both oceans I'd want to attend someday :) |
| 16:08.29 | Alisu | it's separated to two different parties for some years now |
| 16:08.56 | Alisu | where summer is more for demos and graphics and atuff, and winter is for gamers and game tournaments |
| 16:09.04 | ZorbaTHut | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Assembly2004-areena01.jpg gotta laugh at all the CRTs. ah, 2004 |
| 16:10.01 | Alisu | if I wasn't wrong side of the ocean I would have attended that huge game fair already, E3 or what was it |
| 16:10.11 | Alisu | sadly still just a dream :( |
| 16:10.19 | ZorbaTHut | E3's honestly not great - it's more of a marketing event than anything else. PAX, on the other hand, is pretty dang sweet |
| 16:10.33 | Imhothar | you got GamesCon in Colone |
| 16:10.39 | ZorbaTHut | and GDC is great if you're a developer, but extremely pricey (and I think there's a GDC Europe if you're interested) |
| 16:10.42 | Imhothar | that;s a big closer |
| 16:10.52 | Alisu | well, e3 is the only one I've heard about :P |
| 16:10.57 | ZorbaTHut | it wouldn't surprise me if there's a PAX Europe at some point, I know they've been talking about it |
| 16:11.23 | Alisu | and since I'd take part more as a gamer than developer anyway.. gues the marketing would hit a spot |
| 16:12.19 | Alisu | then again, it would be even better to get working to E3 :o |
| 16:12.36 | Imhothar | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamescom |
| 16:12.42 | Imhothar | a bit closer to finland than e3 |
| 16:12.54 | Alisu | though they might be so big they have actully paid workers |
| 16:13.03 | Alisu | in Assembly it's all volunteer staff |
| 16:13.18 | ZorbaTHut | well, that's the problem with E3 - it's marketing aimed at magazines, journalists, publishers, etc. it's not really aimed towards gamers. it's a whole ton of games but you can't play most of them |
| 16:13.24 | Alisu | we get food and handfull of free tickets out of it :) |
| 16:13.43 | ZorbaTHut | whereas PAX has a *lot* of stuff playable, including hundreds of free-play machines. So I'd personally recommend PAX ;) but I think there are Europe alternatives to PAX |
| 16:14.15 | Imhothar | fine, just ignore me |
| 16:14.16 | Alisu | maybe in some distant future when I don't have to save for my own home |
| 16:14.20 | ZorbaTHut | PAX definitely does have paid workers, but also a lot of volunteers - I volunteered for maybe 8-10 events. Fun stuff. Got my job at Trion partially thanks to that, actually. |
| 16:14.45 | Alisu | imhothar, I noticed you.. |
| 16:15.50 | Alisu | just that can't copypaste anything from this ssh thing |
| 16:16.51 | Alisu | hmm.. maybe I should get a grip of myself and try to get a job from rovio |
| 16:19.01 | Noshei | went to pax in 2012, was tons of fun |
| 16:19.28 | Alisu | .. oh my, I want to get an infodesk post in that gamescom :o |
| 16:21.30 | ZorbaTHut | considered trying to get a community management job in the games industry? might be your thing :) |
| 16:21.33 | Ivnedar | nite all, must sleep now |
| 16:21.39 | ZorbaTHut | g'night ivnedar |
| 16:21.59 | ZorbaTHut | noshei, I think that was my second-to-last PAX, actually - haven't been able to make it |
| 16:22.04 | ZorbaTHut | and I've been prioritizing burning man over pax |
| 16:31.17 | Alisu | community management? |
| 16:31.54 | Alisu | it's just, first I'd have to find the gaming industry |
| 16:33.12 | Alisu | but for now.. I guess I'll try to finish the too big bite I bit with the ring menu |
| 16:34.04 | Alisu | I already have working proof of concept but to be of any real use for normal users, they have to be able to edit the contents of the ring |
| 16:35.16 | Alisu | for my own use I can just hardcode it :) |
| 16:36.04 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, that's one downside to Finland - there isn't a lot of game industry there :/ |
| 16:36.14 | ZorbaTHut | one of the reasons I'm kinda stuck in California, honestly |
| 16:37.37 | Alisu | there is nowadays but it's things like rovio and supercell, namely, app stuff |
| 16:38.04 | Alisu | and regardless, to get into it I'd have to know people |
| 16:41.08 | ZorbaTHut | Although keep in mind there's actually a pretty big indie scene in Scandinavia. I'm actually putting together a museum exhibit about indie games right now - out of 27 games, six of them come from Scandinavia |
| 16:41.32 | Alisu | good for them :P |
| 16:41.36 | ZorbaTHut | now admittedly five of those are Sweden for some reason, but the last is, indeed, Finland. there's a lot of opportunity for dedicated people to just sit down and makes games now. |
| 16:41.43 | ZorbaTHut | of course you have to be crazy to try because it's a ton of time |
| 16:41.46 | ZorbaTHut | but :D |
| 16:42.29 | Alisu | I.. think I'll settle with addond.. for now at least :) |
| 16:42.34 | ZorbaTHut | fair ^^ |
| 16:43.13 | Alisu | I get to code in fairly professional environment with no real pressure for getting paid for that stuff |
| 16:43.44 | ZorbaTHut | *nod* yeah, if you want low-pressure, indie games are definitely the wrong place to look |
| 16:44.48 | Alisu | though if I accidentally manage to make something popular, is it ok to hint people to look at my character's rift store wish list? |
| 16:45.19 | ZorbaTHut | yeah I'm pretty sure that's fine :D |
| 16:45.31 | Alisu | :) |
| 16:45.58 | Alisu | even if I have patron passes on my wish list :o |
| 16:46.17 | Alisu | that would actually be awesome.. to code myself some patron time |
| 16:48.06 | Noshei | Alisu: one thing to keep in mind though is this line in the ToS: |
| 16:48.06 | Noshei | Addons may not include advertisements of any kind, including in-game requests for donations, unless expressly permitted by Trion. |
| 16:48.41 | ZorbaTHut | I suspect we'd be okay with pointing people at a wishlist, as long as it's not a big "HEY BUY ME STUFF FROM MY WISHLIST" popup every time you run it |
| 16:48.53 | ZorbaTHut | it's mostly intended for real-world money donations |
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| 16:51.25 | Alisu | I didn't mean the addon to do so |
| 16:52.48 | Alisu | but as something I can mention for example in forum or private talk |
| 16:53.30 | Alisu | I would hate advertasing addon anyay so I wouldn't do such myself, even if it wasn't against tos |
| 16:53.37 | ZorbaTHut | yeah that should be totally fine |
| 16:53.42 | Noshei | Alisu: both curse and riftui have it setup for easy donations |
| 16:54.06 | Alisu | noshei, they would require me to set up some monetary donation stuff |
| 16:54.20 | Noshei | not really |
| 16:54.23 | *** join/#riftuidev seebs (~seebs@home.seebs.net) |
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| 16:54.26 | Alisu | and I'm not _that_ into benefiting from my addons |
| 16:54.31 | Noshei | just have to have a paypal account I believe |
| 16:54.57 | Alisu | that is monetary donation stuff yu know? |
| 16:55.18 | Noshei | I'm not sure what you mean |
| 16:55.19 | Alisu | that is, some separate system to move money between people in net |
| 16:55.39 | Alisu | I don't have paypal account, it's not like one needs it in everyday life |
| 16:56.16 | Noshei | guess it just depends on hwat you do. I use my paypal account all the time |
| 16:56.31 | Alisu | true, anyway, I'd have to setup it first |
| 16:56.53 | Alisu | while with rift gifting, I can just say "hey, artifact vial would be nice" |
| 16:57.00 | Noshei | oh curse also has a nice dev rewards system |
| 16:58.06 | Alisu | that is, I don't feel comfortable to have actual money involved.. it might also interest tax office, I really don't know |
| 16:59.21 | Alisu | but because cash store items are of course related with cash, I wanted to ask if it's ok even to mention that I might like some of them if people want to gift me some way |
| 17:00.43 | seebs | Hinting is fine, so far as I can tell. The question is whether you're trying to *make* people pay, I think. |
| 17:01.05 | Alisu | wouldn't do that :o |
| 17:01.55 | seebs | There was some hilarity early on with this guy talking about his plans to do stuff that violated addon rules and his explanations of how Trion couldn't stop him. It was funny. |
| 17:02.18 | Alisu | didn't go too well I assume? |
| 17:02.41 | ZorbaTHut | I think he never ended up doing any of it |
| 17:02.59 | Alisu | what, in particular, was he meaning to do |
| 17:03.19 | Alisu | as far as I have noticed, the addon interface itself is more than limiting anyway :P |
| 17:26.04 | Alisu | ah, remembered it now, my question about frames. I read somewhere they just hang around once greated, even if the addon stops referencing to them |
| 17:26.19 | Imhothar | aye |
| 17:26.39 | Alisu | is it acceptable to ask the user to refresh ui if he makes changes to his button setup |
| 17:26.56 | Alisu | or should I try to keep close rains on frames and reuse them when possible |
| 17:27.20 | Imhothar | you need some kind of dynamic aching system |
| 17:27.22 | Alisu | hmm.. now that I think of it, I read it from imhobags sourcecode :) |
| 17:27.47 | Alisu | .. aching? |
| 17:27.52 | seebs | caching |
| 17:27.58 | Imhothar | s/aching/caching/ |
| 17:28.06 | seebs | Up to you. Gadgets pops up a reloadui button. |
| 17:28.15 | Alisu | ah |
| 17:28.31 | Imhothar | guess it depends on what kind of change that is. switching to the simple item buttons requires a reloadui too |
| 17:28.38 | Imhothar | in IB |
| 17:28.48 | Alisu | that's what I mean, since the drastic change should happen only when editing the button content of the ring... |
| 17:29.00 | Imhothar | but you certainly don't want to recreate a new item button frame for every new item you are displaying |
| 17:29.08 | Alisu | it's not like the content and amount should be constantly changing |
| 17:29.30 | Alisu | yes, in the scope of the bag thing it makes sense |
| 17:30.00 | Imhothar | though I would it find weird if I had to reload the ui everytime I rearranged what my pie menu shows |
| 17:30.44 | Alisu | 8'm doing something like Opie in wow was |
| 17:30.52 | Imhothar | I imagine |
| 17:31.08 | Alisu | so yes, editing the rings is something you shouldn't be doing often |
| 17:31.14 | Imhothar | you can't delete frames in WoW either |
| 17:31.15 | Alisu | much like editing your gadget setup |
| 17:31.37 | Alisu | I was wondering if it's acceptable to ask the user to reloadui |
| 17:31.50 | Imhothar | it really depends |
| 17:32.10 | Imhothar | in BI it's only required for something that completely changes how the entire addon looks |
| 17:32.14 | Imhothar | *IB |
| 17:32.37 | Alisu | if I end up the caching way.. I just say clear all points, setvisible false and switxh the parent to some buttonbin thing? |
| 17:32.45 | Imhothar | yes |
| 17:33.06 | Alisu | hmm.. parent's visibility affects to the child |
| 17:33.31 | Imhothar | some frames have limitations and I even managed to crash the game when implementing frame reuse in LibWiki but that went to the extremes |
| 17:33.34 | Alisu | but if child is separately set unvisible, will it still get visible when parent is set visible? |
| 17:33.53 | Imhothar | no |
| 17:34.20 | Alisu | if it's after that set back visible, will it still get unvisible when the parent does? |
| 17:34.21 | Imhothar | if any frame in the ancestry chain all the way to the context is invisible it stays invisible |
| 17:34.44 | Alisu | ok, so only invisibility inherits |
| 17:35.35 | Alisu | darn, I already used my daily woman card |
| 17:35.41 | Alisu | would have had some neeed for it |
| 17:40.40 | Alisu | if I have parent and child texture frames, which is drawn on top? |
| 17:41.40 | Alisu | hmm.. actually setlayer documentation said something about that I think |
| 17:43.35 | Imhothar | layers control in which order children are drawn |
| 17:43.44 | Imhothar | children are always on top of parents |
| 17:44.08 | Imhothar | (except for a hilarious bug involving textures and text) |
| 17:48.32 | Alisu | child text goes below texture? |
| 17:48.51 | Imhothar | if you change a texture's file after adding its children, yes |
| 17:48.59 | Imhothar | it's a bug we have to live with |
| 17:49.19 | Imhothar | solution is to make them siblings instead |
| 17:49.21 | Imhothar | and adjust layer |
| 17:49.28 | Alisu | or go around it by making the texture another child |
| 17:49.31 | Alisu | yes |
| 17:49.57 | Alisu | but that's only the case with text? |
| 17:50.06 | Imhothar | maybe |
| 17:50.30 | Imhothar | I think the bug is the texture, not the text |
| 17:50.32 | Alisu | will see I guess.. if my button icon is parent and button border is child |
| 17:50.41 | Alisu | changing the icon should bring the bug out |
| 18:46.08 | seebs | Sometimes people in MMOs say "when you pay my $15/month, you can tell me how to play". |
| 18:46.16 | seebs | I feel I should point out: In nearly all cases, that is not actually an offer. |
| 18:51.23 | Alisu | .. the problem with the chat tab background color picking is actually stupidier than I thought |
| 18:51.44 | Alisu | it's not that the color picker doesn't offer black, but the black is in the rightmost column of the color picker graphics |
| 18:52.00 | Alisu | however, the right edge of the color picker is cut of due it not fitting the frame |
| 18:52.09 | Alisu | also some hues of red are unaccessibler |
| 18:53.50 | Alisu | so in theory the black is an option, but due some oversight from whoever laid out the chat tab settings part of the colorpicker won't fit the frame showing it |
| 18:57.55 | seebs | Oh, interesting. |
| 18:58.09 | seebs | I just ignored it because the transparent texture means that no color actually works. |
| 18:58.28 | Alisu | send a bug report |
| 18:58.43 | Alisu | it actually seems to be the case with every color picker button in the chat settings |
| 18:58.52 | Alisu | also those used to pick the various message colors |
| 18:59.22 | Alisu | and the chat background color setting actually works nicely |
| 18:59.40 | Alisu | just that I'd want darker colors for it, now it makes the background colors too bright |
| 19:00.11 | Alisu | Anyway, I just hadn't noticed it before with the other buttons since I hardly want to set the text black in any of them |
| 19:00.35 | Alisu | but was surfing through textures and found the color picker texture.. and noticed it has a biiit more into it than I remembered seeing |
| 19:00.53 | Alisu | so went to see and yes, it cuts clean of in the edge of the inner scrollwidget thing :> |
| 19:04.37 | seebs | I was just talking about the thing where, if the top of the chat window is flat black, the bottom is about 50% transparent black. |
| 19:07.32 | ZorbaTHut | argh API naming is so hard :( |
| 19:07.51 | Imhothar | our Lord is doing addon work? |
| 19:08.55 | ZorbaTHut | nah, toying with my latest reimplementation of the UI layer |
| 19:08.58 | ZorbaTHut | I think this is #9 or so |
| 19:09.11 | ZorbaTHut | first time I've aimed for a user-facing C++ API |
| 19:09.40 | ZorbaTHut | which introduces all sorts of fun problems with naming static types that I never had to deal with before :P |
| 19:11.22 | seebs | So it turns out I might actually be paying someone's $15/month. |
| 19:11.47 | seebs | The idea is she'll do a stream of playing an MMO according to instructions from the person paying her $15/month, because that would be funny and might actually attract viewers. :P |
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| 19:50.47 | ZorbaTHut | current api step: figure out exactly what I want to expose as part of the public api, hide everything else |
| 19:51.18 | Imhothar | build a facade around it |
| 19:52.39 | Imhothar | move private parts to a detail namespace |
| 19:53.20 | Imhothar | oh that's actually not the issue |
| 19:53.22 | Imhothar | nevermind |
| 19:54.03 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, actually, I'm moving a ton of stuff into a detail namespace |
| 19:54.04 | Imhothar | i somehow read a "how" somewhere |
| 19:54.19 | ZorbaTHut | but that means figuring out what needs to be moved and what doesn't, and cleaning up APIs that are messier than they need to be |
| 19:54.35 | ZorbaTHut | I think I've halved the size of my doxygen output so far :P |
| 19:54.57 | Noshei | ZorbaTHut: is this all part of that frames project you have been working on or for rift? |
| 19:56.31 | ZorbaTHut | the project I've been working on |
| 19:56.33 | Imhothar | in my experience it's only worth hiding stuff that is really considered an implementation detail, like something that is "private" to your namespace |
| 19:56.47 | ZorbaTHut | I'm basically going with the private-unless-explicitly-public semantics |
| 19:56.50 | ZorbaTHut | you can always expose more stuff |
| 19:56.57 | ZorbaTHut | you can't unexpose stuff, at least without a lot of pain |
| 19:57.00 | Imhothar | and therefore never appears anywhere either ass return type or argument |
| 19:57.40 | ZorbaTHut | yep |
| 19:57.54 | ZorbaTHut | the good news is that I designed this API with that in mind, so there's no colossal rewrites needed |
| 19:58.03 | ZorbaTHut | but a lot of cleanup |
| 19:58.28 | Imhothar | so I usually only hide template stuff for metaprogramming, or base classes that are plugged with type traits and stuff |
| 19:59.13 | Imhothar | and since I use templates a lot my detail namespaces are really populated |
| 20:00.08 | ZorbaTHut | whereas in this case I've got a bunch of managers and internal package communication that I really don't want people mucking with |
| 20:00.34 | Imhothar | what you don't *want* is one thing... |
| 20:00.46 | ZorbaTHut | the frames system has ended up very tightly interconnected, which is A-OK for me, but doesn't work great with C++ privacy semantics unfortunately |
| 20:01.00 | Imhothar | friends everywhere? |
| 20:01.00 | ZorbaTHut | (I wish C++ had a "package" keyword, as impossible as that is for lots of reasons) |
| 20:01.08 | ZorbaTHut | (and oh man I love Rust's package protection semantics) |
| 20:01.13 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, that's what it will end up being |
| 20:01.14 | Imhothar | they're aiming for modules though |
| 20:01.34 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, that's pretty much what I prefer. I think module-level privacy makes a whole lot more sense. |
| 20:01.39 | Imhothar | it's what SG2 is doing |
| 20:01.50 | ZorbaTHut | sg2? |
| 20:02.00 | Imhothar | Study Group 2 of the standard |
| 20:02.32 | Imhothar | basically a way to get rid of headers |
| 20:03.05 | Imhothar | the latest design I remember is to have just a cpp file and mark parts of the file as public and private |
| 20:03.20 | ZorbaTHut | interesting |
| 20:03.37 | Imhothar | instead of #include use import which is not a preprocesor thing that pulls the file in |
| 20:03.50 | ZorbaTHut | I will admit that I'm getting real intriuged by Rust. I thought C++ was going to be dominant forever just because nobody was bothering to make a new systems language, but Rust is trying that |
| 20:04.02 | ZorbaTHut | and C++ has a truly horrendous amount of legacy cruft |
| 20:04.20 | Imhothar | the compiler runs on that file separately and creates a preprocessed file from where the compiler reads all the stuff you can use |
| 20:05.12 | Thorarin | So basically they're going Java/C# approach with that :P |
| 20:05.18 | ZorbaTHut | because if there's one thing we need, it's even more complicated build paths for C++ |
| 20:05.19 | ZorbaTHut | sigh :P |
| 20:05.42 | Imhothar | it's supposed to be simpler |
| 20:06.00 | Imhothar | no meddling with header files and taking from the current clang branch much shorter compile times |
| 20:06.26 | Imhothar | significantly shorter |
| 20:06.38 | Imhothar | linear instead of exponential as it is with headers |
| 20:07.22 | Imhothar | there are still some unsolved problems though |
| 20:07.35 | Imhothar | they filly implemented it for Objective-C and it shipped with Xcode 5 |
| 20:07.49 | Imhothar | s/filly/fully/ |
| 20:08.47 | Imhothar | so withnew Objective-C code you can use the import directive instead of #import macro |
| 20:09.23 | ZorbaTHut | well, it'll be faster, but that doesn't sound simpler |
| 20:09.30 | ZorbaTHut | it'll add a second type of intermediate build file |
| 20:09.48 | Imhothar | a build file that is not maintained by you |
| 20:09.51 | ZorbaTHut | first you have to preprocess all the headers for export directives; then you build all the .cpp files for object files; then you link all that stuff |
| 20:10.16 | Imhothar | you still provide the cpp file |
| 20:10.20 | ZorbaTHut | as someone who semi-regularly fights with build systems I'll admit that part isn't exciting me :V |
| 20:10.27 | Imhothar | with whatever content necessary |
| 20:10.45 | Imhothar | the preprocessing is done by the compiler as it uses the file |
| 20:10.47 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, I understand, it's generated by the compiler, but it's still even more intermediate steps |
| 20:10.58 | Imhothar | uhm.. no |
| 20:11.45 | Imhothar | instead of parsing a header, it reads the preprocessed file, and creates it if doesn't exist yet |
| 20:11.58 | Thorarin | Can they fully parse a .cpp without knowing the "headers"? |
| 20:12.12 | Imhothar | the preprocessed files are part of the copmilers intermediate files, it's nothing you put in source control or whatever |
| 20:12.36 | Imhothar | it parses the referenced cpp in isolation |
| 20:13.13 | Imhothar | headers are of course still a thing for old code, and nobody is going to replace that |
| 20:14.37 | Imhothar | though headers aren't any way special, so you could still use the import directive instead of #import to reference them and alread reduces compilation times |
| 20:15.06 | Imhothar | http://clang.llvm.org/docs/Modules.html |
| 20:16.17 | Imhothar | it's really about changing O(m*n) to O(m+n) or even O(n) if code is structured appropriately |
| 20:17.17 | ZorbaTHut | yes, I understand how that works. but object files still have to be dealt with on the build-system level, and these precompiled cpp exports are also going to be deal with on the build-system level. |
| 20:17.49 | ZorbaTHut | I really don't trust that the "module cache" is going to be 100% transparent and magic. That *never* works out properly. |
| 20:17.56 | Imhothar | they shouldn't |
| 20:18.24 | Imhothar | one can at least hope for it. the problem with object files is that they are produced by one program and fed to another |
| 20:18.42 | Imhothar | this cache is both produced and consumed by the same application |
| 20:18.46 | ZorbaTHut | I'll hope for it, but I admit to being skeptical right now :V |
| 20:19.23 | Imhothar | nothing wrong wiht being skeptical |
| 20:19.30 | ZorbaTHut | and honestly gcc/ld or cl/link are so close to being the same application that the distinction is kind of irrelevant, IMHO |
| 20:19.51 | Imhothar | the distinction is how you treat the outputs |
| 20:20.16 | Imhothar | in the typical build system you have to capture the list of gcc outputs and manually stuff them into ld in your build system |
| 20:20.40 | Imhothar | it's a step in your build system |
| 20:20.44 | Imhothar | the ache is not |
| 20:21.08 | Alisu | .. confuse the cat :o |
| 20:21.15 | Alisu | at least this cat is properly confused |
| 20:21.34 | Imhothar | it says on the page, the compiler forks itself in a new thread to process the imported modules |
| 20:21.45 | Imhothar | no work required by the build driver |
| 20:22.32 | ZorbaTHut | well, again, I'm not at all convinced that'll work out anywhere near as well as proposed, but I'll hope. |
| 20:22.34 | Imhothar | the location of the cache is a thing of course, and the preprocessed files are implementation-defined so you won't be downloading them |
| 20:22.55 | ZorbaTHut | that said I also gotta get some sleep :V |
| 20:23.18 | Imhothar | sweet dreams about detail namespaces and import directives |
| 20:23.57 | Alisu | on the risk of sounding very news, which I am of course, what's a detail namespace? |
| 20:24.08 | Alisu | s/news/newb |
| 20:24.11 | Imhothar | nothing related to Rift |
| 20:24.19 | Imhothar | C++ stuff |
| 20:24.23 | Alisu | I know that much.. |
| 20:25.04 | ZorbaTHut | alisu, short answer: often when you're writing a big library you have "the stuff that the user is meant to see" and "the stuff that the user isn't meant to know about" |
| 20:25.37 | Alisu | something like java private and public things? |
| 20:25.38 | ZorbaTHut | C++ has a mechanism called "namespaces" that lets you put things in areas for the sake of organization. it's pretty common to put "the stuff tha the user isn't meant to know about" in a namespace named "detail" |
| 20:25.52 | ZorbaTHut | pretty similar - as I recall, java also has "package", doesn't it? |
| 20:25.56 | ZorbaTHut | (or maybe that's C#) |
| 20:26.02 | Alisu | ok, so it's naming convention |
| 20:26.17 | ZorbaTHut | anyway, the detail namespace is used as kind of a hacky way of saying "this has to be accessed by a lot of other classes, but if you don't know what you're doing, stay away, there be dragons here" |
| 20:26.30 | Alisu | yeah, java has something like package, though the details of it never were clear to me |
| 20:26.53 | Alisu | as I said earlier, at some point in my life I actually studied this stuff and got an approach to learn a bit of everything |
| 20:27.03 | Alisu | nothing very well, mind, but.. |
| 20:27.05 | ZorbaTHut | note that there's no official meaning to "detail", it's just really common. I don't know where it started - I know Boost uses it, though, and that's about half a step away from being official, so it's kinda spread everywhere |
| 20:27.22 | Imhothar | it's more than naming convention, namespaces separate and organize stuff so it doesn't get mixed up with other people's code |
| 20:27.47 | Alisu | I guess I mean, to call it "detail" is a naming convention |
| 20:27.55 | Imhothar | C# has "internal" whcih makes it only visible to the same assembly |
| 20:28.11 | ZorbaTHut | ah, yep, pretty much :) |
| 20:28.15 | ZorbaTHut | and now I really am off to bed, cya all! |
| 20:28.47 | Imhothar | and you can specify that internals are visible to a certain other assembly, one that runs unit tests for example |
| 20:28.57 | Alisu | something I've been wondering lately, which I guess goes by this, when aiming to do something like classes in my addon, should I let methods use the fields, or strictly use Get functions |
| 20:29.30 | Alisu | because the good part in the latter at least is, if I reorganise the data structure, I only have to rewrite the proper Get function |
| 20:29.40 | Alisu | but I wonder if it creates a needless overhead |
| 20:30.01 | Alisu | by calling the value true possibly couple nested Get functions |
| 20:30.44 | Imhothar | I usually only use get functions if the get has to compute something |
| 20:30.55 | Imhothar | otherwise just use plain fields since the code is internal anyway |
| 20:31.22 | seebs | The reason for accessors is to allow for the possibility that you later want to change the internals and leave the interface alone. |
| 20:31.36 | Alisu | which is pretty much what I meant.. I think |
| 20:31.54 | seebs | Whether this is worth it or not depends a lot. For addons, my plan is pretty much to just say "if I need to change the interface enough that I care, I'm going to change the addon name so old things can keep using the old one". |
| 20:32.20 | Imhothar | if its a public function in a library that is meant to be used by others, then of course use get methods always |
| 20:32.44 | Alisu | hmm.. have to think of that |
| 20:32.55 | Alisu | and yes, the ones that count something are somewhat obvious |
| 20:33.19 | Imhothar | most of ImhoBags is private, there are only some public events, so there is often direct acces to fields |
| 20:33.41 | Alisu | I'm half eager to put the code as I have it now public somewhere to ask if you could take a glance to see if I'm at least going to right way.. but I wonder if it would be too much trouble |
| 20:33.54 | seebs | So I'm talking with someone about arranging a thing wherein I pay her $15/month (or patron pass or whatever), and tell her how to play. So she can stream it. Because "You can tell me how to play when you pay my $15/month" "Challenge accepted" is funny. |
| 20:34.02 | seebs | Now I'm trying to figure out whether this breaks any of Rift's rules. |
| 20:34.14 | Imhothar | Alisu by "private" I mean not used by other addons |
| 20:34.34 | Alisu | Imho, figured so, since there is no real private in lua |
| 20:34.46 | Imhothar | all the source code is publicly readable by people as required by the TOS anyway |
| 20:35.19 | Alisu | yeah, and the fields of some class which is actually a list anyway are readable for everything that has the list |
| 20:35.58 | Alisu | I guess the closest things to classes I know of is java so my mindset and terminology goes by that |
| 20:36.11 | Alisu | even if I know lua differs from it quite a lot |
| 20:36.21 | Alisu | then again, I also made classes with scheme back in time :> |
| 20:37.40 | Alisu | Seebs, if it'll be ok, how are you going to make her play? |
| 20:40.35 | Noshei | gah, it is so tempting |
| 20:46.54 | seebs | I don't know yet. Still trying to think of things that will be funny but not annoying. |
| 22:55.35 | Noshei | so I just got on the pts |
| 22:55.49 | Noshei | and I had forgotten that I had all the video settings maxed on here |
| 22:56.03 | Noshei | this game looks so different with fullscreen fx and full shadows |
| 22:57.21 | seebs | Except for the quantum sight thing, I really like it in general. |
| 22:59.59 | Noshei | I dont |
| 23:00.09 | Noshei | the blur and distort kinda kill it for me |
| 23:00.22 | Ivnedar | the "make everything so bright and washed out" kills it for me |
| 23:00.27 | Ivnedar | can't stand fullscreen fx :( |
| 23:00.33 | Ivnedar | just wish it was more granular |
| 23:01.11 | Imhothar | computer graphics advancement in the past 5 years was "more blurring and shining" |
| 23:01.44 | seebs | Real is brown. |
| 23:01.50 | Ivnedar | yeah, virtual vaseline on the lens |
| 23:02.23 | seebs | It is sort of hilarious watching people try to explain how they cannot possibly understand how namecalling is insulting. |
| 23:02.34 | Imhothar | and if your name is battlefield just make everything grey and you're good |
| 23:34.04 | Ivnedar | lol, had an all staff meeting, it was mentioned that we're moving to a "swipe2print" model where you need to swipe your building access card at the printer to release a job |
| 23:34.12 | Ivnedar | they wanted a show of hands to see who had signed up for it so far |
| 23:34.23 | Ivnedar | all the admin staff raise their hands, the technical staff all looking around going "wtf is printing?" |
| 23:42.58 | *** join/#riftuidev seebs_ (~seebs@home.seebs.net) |
| 23:42.58 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+o seebs_] by ChanServ |
