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| 00:20.11 | seebs | gah |
| 00:20.13 | seebs | Okay, so. |
| 00:20.23 | seebs | Notes are specific to state. Also someone can't be in both states, it appears. |
| 00:20.43 | seebs | So if you friend someone, and add a note, then ignore them, the friend status is cleared *and* the note is removed. Refriending them doesn't bring it back. |
| 00:22.43 | Ivnedar | if you add an ignore note to someone on your friends list, does it switch them to ignored? |
| 00:22.56 | seebs | You can't add an ignore note, I don't think, except if they're ignored. |
| 00:23.31 | Ivnedar | so it's essentially 3 states for players, neutral, friend, ignore, and a note for why they're not neutral |
| 00:23.32 | seebs | Yeah, it's a command error to call Ignore.Note on an unignored player. |
| 00:23.40 | seebs | Yeah, seems to be. |
| 00:53.20 | Noshei | oh and the game will also auto add to the notes for firends, when their name changes, telling you what their old name was |
| 00:54.10 | Noshei | just adds to the end of the current note though, not sure what happens if it hits the character limit though |
| 01:15.11 | seebs | I wonder whether there's any easy way to detect that. |
| 01:15.26 | seebs | Or what the limit is, etc. |
| 01:15.52 | Noshei | character limit should be easy to figure out |
| 01:15.56 | seebs | Yeah. |
| 01:16.15 | seebs | And in theory I suppose I'd detect name changes at least sometimes, if there were a specific note, and so on. Hmm. |
| 01:40.22 | seebs | Okay, so, conceptual design. At any given point, I probably want a list of entities known to me, with the states I want them to be in. |
| 01:41.38 | seebs | When you log in on a new character, I should add any friends/ignore entries that are not previously known, but not overwrite that master list, then forcibly synchronize the friends/ignore lists to the Master State. Oh, and add notes for any characters who have notes on this list but not on others, and mention that. |
| 01:42.07 | seebs | I think that's about 80% of what I'm likely to want. |
| 02:43.11 | seebs | Huh. |
| 02:43.22 | seebs | If someone's in your friends list, '/friend name' removes them without a message. |
| 02:43.34 | seebs | But '/friend name@thisshard' doesn't. |
| 02:43.43 | seebs | But add/remove work correctly for @thisshard regardless. |
| 02:43.50 | seebs | I mean, command.social.friend.add/remove. |
| 03:22.54 | seebs | huh. Apparently you *CAN* get someone on both lists. |
| 03:33.11 | seebs | oh-hoh. |
| 03:33.23 | seebs | It appears there may be a non-zero lag from addon.startup.end to the availability of friends lists. |
| 03:42.33 | Amadeus- | Idle wonderings....I wonder why even the smallest Rift patches requires almost 50 megs of download |
| 03:44.28 | seebs | gah |
| 03:44.49 | seebs | So it turns out you can have people on your friends list, but you can't friend them using those names anymore, but there's no error or anything for trying to do so, it just has no effect. |
| 04:53.09 | seebs | and zoning can apparently create situations where you can't tell that you already have someone as a friend. gah. |
| 05:27.10 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar (~Imhothar@ppp-93-104-165-161.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 05:46.47 | Noshei | whats a good program to view .dds files |
| 05:46.56 | Noshei | can't remember the one I had on my old computer |
| 05:47.37 | Ivnedar | ooh, worked out how to pull them from the asset files? |
| 05:47.50 | Ivnedar | or are you looking at the icon files? |
| 05:47.56 | Noshei | icons |
| 05:48.16 | Noshei | IrfanView, thats what it was |
| 06:06.13 | ZorbaBeta | amadeus, the executable and error handler together end up being most of that |
| 06:13.12 | seebs | Wow, Faeblight is just amazing tonight. |
| 06:13.25 | seebs | I think we had at one point ten different people trying to harass and troll Ibby. |
| 06:13.30 | seebs | ... Admittedly, not hard to accomplish. |
| 06:14.27 | Noshei | Ivnedar: does mechanic spy work for stuff on a boss? |
| 06:14.52 | Noshei | say I want to use mechanic spy to show when a boss gets a debuff and how long is left on it |
| 06:31.31 | Amadeus- | ZorbaBeta, that makes sense ...btw, any ideas on why the servers are unaccessible for an hour after the weekly reset? I wonder every week if it's something that requires a manual action. |
| 06:31.58 | Amadeus- | it's amazing how many people log on to get their weekly Dendrome done at that time ...affects more folks than I think a lot of people realize ..lol. |
| 06:51.52 | ZorbaBeta | amadeus, the manual action is "log on and make sure everything is actually running" |
| 06:52.10 | ZorbaBeta | one final sanity test done by QA |
| 07:02.28 | seebs | Makes sense. |
| 07:03.11 | seebs | It is amazing the number of people who suddenly become really dogmatic about calling a woman "he" and insisting she's not *really* a woman, if and only if they're mad at her. |
| 07:06.08 | seebs | Huh, this is odd. |
| 07:06.40 | seebs | Zoning seems to fairly reliably create a state in which looking at the friend/ignore lists produces Obviously Wrong data. |
| 07:06.43 | seebs | But not *empty* data. |
| 07:06.58 | seebs | So I get, say, a friends list of *exactly one* entry, causing me to try to add all the others. |
| 07:07.19 | seebs | And if I then zone again, the resulting conclusion is that obviously these must be invalid or I wouldn't have to keep trying to add them. |
| 07:09.54 | seebs | ... And interestingly, it seems to always be the *same* user who's in the table-of-one. Hmm. |
| 07:12.45 | seebs | Okay, I am out of ideas. |
| 07:13.08 | seebs | Anyone have a suggestion for how to tell when the social lists are likely actually loaded, as opposed to maybe partially loaded? |
| 07:15.40 | Noshei | Ivnedar: Here's my latest copy of the Volan encounter, http://pastebin.com/kbXDL6S5 |
| 07:17.05 | Noshei | This should cover everything that is trackable for the entire fight, though timers will certainly be off in Phase 1 if you go overly long (you would end up hitting enrage anyways). |
| 07:17.53 | Noshei | I did just completely rewrite the triggers though, so something may be a bit off, I'll be albe to better test it on sunday. |
| 07:18.39 | seebs | Oh-hoh. |
| 07:18.40 | seebs | I see. |
| 07:18.52 | seebs | I get one event.social.friend per person on the friends list, then another with a complete list. |
| 07:19.01 | seebs | I think I need to do the "and then in one update handle this" thing. |
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| 07:43.21 | Torhal | seebs: Bucket handler. |
| 07:43.55 | seebs | Yeah. Trying to do that. |
| 07:44.04 | seebs | Not quite getting the results I want, and I'm not sure why. |
| 07:49.28 | seebs | ... d'oh. I was suppressing incoming events in some cases. |
| 07:55.09 | seebs | Okay, so, turns out the cruft I invented to try to stop from getting confused by the events that were generated by my processing was Not Helping. |
| 08:01.58 | seebs | ... also I am starting to suspect that, if someone isn't in friends, and I do a Command.Social.Friend.Add() on them, I may get the event for the change before Inspect.Social.Friend.List() will report them. |
| 08:06.29 | seebs | Also, it appears that the ignore list really *CAN* contain user@unknown, even though that's never valid in the friend list. |
| 08:07.40 | seebs | ... I mean, not that it can't occur in the friend list, just that it's never a thing you can add to the friend list. |
| 08:16.32 | seebs | New plan: Just ignore anything with @unknown in it, since they seem to be invalid, mostly. |
| 08:19.03 | seebs | Okay, I'm now down to one minorish mystery, which is sometimes when I log into a new character, it ends up producing events which lead the addon to be quite convinced that I just removed someone from my friends list. |
| 08:20.09 | seebs | Which *appears* to be because, somehow, the event shows up at a time when the friends list data is still not showing the new entry. I think. |
| 08:32.26 | seebs | ... agaghgh. And I log in on a new character, and somehow I still get the thing where it thinks I removed all these people from my friends lists, even though there shouldn't yet have been any events for th.. |
| 08:32.28 | seebs | Wait. |
| 08:32.48 | seebs | Is it possible that I'm getting friend list event changes for names who are on the *previous* character's friend list? |
| 08:34.13 | seebs | *confused* This is very odd. I am processing what *should* be a list of only those events which I have seen. |
| 08:34.24 | seebs | And yet, that processing is hitting a large number of names that I definitely don't see events for. |
| 08:39.54 | seebs | ... It appears that is it. |
| 08:40.29 | seebs | Wait, no. *confused* |
| 08:40.36 | seebs | Something is really, really, weird here and my brain is not handling it. |
| 08:52.44 | seebs | Okay, that *is* it. |
| 08:53.08 | seebs | During login, I get a spurious event.social.friend which has X=true for all X that were in the *previous* character's friends list, it appears. |
| 08:54.04 | seebs | Which makes me think their friend status has changed, so I check the list, find they're not on it, and conclude they were unfriended. |
| 08:54.56 | seebs | ... Hmm. Actually, looks like it's a list of every character that's been on a friends list I've seen yet since the client started. |
| 08:55.06 | Torhal | seebs: So wait for X seconds after login or (I'm not familiar with how Rift operates) register for the following event |
| 08:55.50 | seebs | Yup, that's it. I just logged in on a brand new character on another shard, and got 58 friend events for characters from my previous shard. |
| 08:56.23 | Torhal | So friends are shared between shards? Interesting |
| 08:56.36 | seebs | Not normally. |
| 08:56.43 | seebs | I'm trying to make an addon which shares friend lists. |
| 08:56.49 | Torhal | Aaaaaah |
| 08:56.53 | Torhal | That explains much |
| 08:57.15 | seebs | Problem is, I log in on a new character, and I suddenly get a huge update message telling me that there have been changes in the state of all these friends. |
| 08:57.17 | seebs | Which there haven't. |
| 08:58.04 | seebs | I can probably solve this just by looking for an early message with multiple friends in it, and disregarding that. |
| 08:58.59 | Amadeus- | ( ZorbaBeta ) amadeus, the manual action is "log on and make sure everything is actually running" |
| 08:58.59 | Amadeus- | ( ZorbaBeta ) one final sanity test done by QA |
| 08:59.13 | Amadeus- | ^ no..I'm talking about at the weekly reset, not after the patch. |
| 08:59.25 | Amadeus- | i.e., at 4:00 a.m. |
| 08:59.55 | Amadeus- | the servers give an error message for about an hour when you try to log onto them ....you're fine if you're already in the game. But, switching characters or logging in is almost imposible for quite a while. |
| 09:22.43 | ZorbaBeta | oh, curious. First I know about that one :V |
| 09:27.13 | Amadeus- | really?! |
| 09:28.17 | Amadeus- | ZorbaBeta, people been complaining about it on forums ..there is a thread every week :) I only really notice it on the weekly reset (because that's the only time I'm online at 4:00 a.m. switching characters); however, people say it happens, on a slightly less intensive basis, even on the daily reset. |
| 09:28.35 | Amadeus- | all I know is last week about 4:30 I tried to change to an alt ...and couldn't get back online until around 5:00 |
| 09:28.55 | Amadeus- | I forgot the exact error message but it was something like "The server may be unavailable at this time" (which is a really funny message ..lol) |
| 09:29.12 | Amadeus- | it freezes for a long time ...then you get that message |
| 09:29.15 | seebs | http://www.riftui.com/downloads/info425-Socialize.html <-- yay! |
| 09:29.29 | seebs | Zorba, the client caching behavior there surprised the hell out of me. |
| 09:29.49 | Amadeus- | btw..I thougth of another request: abiltiy to accept queued quests in any order ..lol (i.e., to skip over quests) ....I was going to save up a bunch of pvp quests but now I can't with event ..hehe |
| 09:30.06 | seebs | Log in on brand new character. Get Event.Social.Friend with a table of all the friends the client has previously seen, even on other shards, in this session. |
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| 14:31.51 | Ivnedar | yeah, ~30 minutes after daily reset, no one can log in |
| 14:31.56 | Ivnedar | ~60 minutes after weekly reset |
| 14:32.14 | Ivnedar | which sucks, 'cause daily reset issue is in the middle of our raid time |
| 14:32.28 | Ivnedar | so if someone gets d/c'd, or needs to switch to an alt, they're screwed |
| 14:33.32 | Ivnedar | they said they fixed it in a recent patch, but it feels like it's worse |
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| 18:26.21 | Noshei | Ivnedar: didn't you say you had a copy of readycheck that had the icon's flash when they were close to expiring? |
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| 19:15.32 | seebs | Ivnedar, to be picky, they didn't say they fixed it, they said they were working on it. |
| 19:15.50 | seebs | There may be extra instrumentation or diagnostics that don't change it but might help them find it. |
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| 20:27.10 | seebs | http://forums.riftgame.com/general-discussions/general-discussion/403107-white-ki-rin-8.html#post4630804 <-- Tacitus is once again Best Dev. |
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| 21:38.56 | seebs | Hey, idle question. Anyone aware of any detailed analysis that may have been done on the benefits/costs of doing tank/heal/3dps vs tank/heal/support/2dps? |
| 21:39.17 | seebs | I know a lot of people say 3 DPS is faster, but I have not seen any actual analysis, and I don't know what the damage output difference between a support and a DPS really is. |
| 21:39.44 | Thorarin | Not worth doing detailed analysis... it's pretty obvious :P |
| 21:40.07 | Noshei | yeah |
| 21:40.22 | Noshei | support roles are really designed to benefit larger raids |
| 21:40.25 | seebs | So far as I know, it's pretty much taken for granted that support is worthwhile in 10-player stuff. |
| 21:40.31 | seebs | But I don't know what the cutoff is. 6? 7? |
| 21:40.51 | Noshei | so 10 mans are kinda the dividing line |
| 21:40.54 | Thorarin | Probably around that yeah, but since there is no 7 people raids.. :) |
| 21:40.57 | seebs | I also don't know whether it may be situational. |
| 21:41.17 | seebs | For instance, I had a group in Foul Cascade that was just a little weak, and would have had a hard time, but we had some crowd control and that paid off. |
| 21:41.25 | Noshei | there are a lot of 10 man fights where we only use 1 support, but plenty we use 2 supports |
| 21:41.29 | seebs | So in that case, had we replaced the crowd control with more damage, we wouldn't have been able to clear it. |
| 21:41.49 | Thorarin | Sure, but then the question is not DPS |
| 21:42.38 | seebs | I see occasional threads about people kicking someone from a group for playing support when assigned support by the LFG tool. |
| 21:42.47 | seebs | And I am trying to figure out whether that's remotely sane, or just silly. |
| 21:43.13 | seebs | I mean, even stipulating that an overgeared group may be better off using a third DPS instead of a support, how *much* better off? Enough to make a difference anyone cares about? |
| 21:43.20 | Thorarin | I wouldn't kick someone for it, but I'm a softie :P |
| 21:43.27 | Noshei | honestly it can slow a lvl 60 5 man group, but that depends more on how much dps the 2 dps are doing |
| 21:43.43 | Thorarin | It's pretty silly tho :) |
| 21:43.48 | Noshei | ^agree |
| 21:43.51 | seebs | And while it's true there's no 7-player raid content, say you're doing a zone invasion. At what point would it make sense to have one of your players to convert to support? |
| 21:44.20 | seebs | I'd assume there's a point at which it's probably a good deal, and probably a point at which it's obviously a huge win. |
| 21:44.38 | seebs | ... Of course, from the point of view of a solo player joining a raid, the answer is "support is so rewarding you should always do it if you can". |
| 21:44.44 | seebs | Because support gets credit for EVERYTHING. |
| 21:44.55 | seebs | You hit a thing? I made you hit harder, I get XP. |
| 21:45.51 | seebs | But some of my curiousity is just: Say you have a group that could easily clear an instance whether their 5th player is support, or DPS, or indeed just sitting back at the entrance trolling 1-29. |
| 21:46.00 | seebs | How much difference will it make which way they go? |
| 21:46.17 | seebs | Presumably a pure DPS does more damage, but I don't know if we're talking 1.1x more damage or 10x more damage. |
| 21:46.56 | Noshei | so here is what you have to look at to decide if a support is worth it |
| 21:47.25 | Noshei | is the loss of a full dps (minus the dps they do as support) less than the amount of dps gained by the other dps |
| 21:47.42 | Thorarin | A good bard focussing on DPS can do.... 9k ST or so? |
| 21:47.49 | Noshei | in a 5 man, no it never will be. It is always a DPS loss. |
| 21:48.19 | Thorarin | Aside from specs like Harbarchon, yeah |
| 21:48.21 | Noshei | in a 10 man, 1 support for sure, the second support is dependent on the fight |
| 21:48.40 | Thorarin | Harbarchon is pretty silly in pure melee tbh |
| 21:48.43 | Noshei | yeah harbochon is broken imo |
| 21:48.46 | seebs | Part of it is, I don't know what the numbers are. |
| 21:48.51 | seebs | Harbarchon? Haven't tried that. |
| 21:49.10 | Noshei | seebs: it is 100% dependent on the players |
| 21:49.11 | seebs | So I don't know what's a "good" number for pure DPS. Or what support roles will be doing instead, or how much they improve other people. |
| 21:49.15 | Thorarin | Does DPS like a harbinger, while buffing :) |
| 21:49.25 | Noshei | there is no way to give an absolute definitive. |
| 21:49.38 | seebs | Dom is a support role, nominally. |
| 21:49.50 | seebs | The amount of damage dominators can do is disgusting in zone events. |
| 21:50.37 | seebs | My go-to thing for a mage doing wardstone defense is usually dom/chloro, because dominator's heavily-bursty damage output is well suited to slaughtering an invasion or two, then waiting, then slaughtering an invasion or two... |
| 21:50.39 | Thorarin | One of the few fights we do without a support sometimes is Kyzan |
| 21:50.52 | Thorarin | I think I do 15% less DPS |
| 21:51.01 | seebs | Hmm. |
| 21:51.10 | Thorarin | Rough guess tho |
| 21:51.27 | seebs | Just ballpark: If that's right, then 6 should be break-even, roughly. |
| 21:51.44 | Thorarin | Sometimes you have to run so much your DPS sucks no matter what :) |
| 21:51.46 | seebs | Assume a support does roughly-half the DPS of a good DPS, and produces a 15% increase in the output of the other players. |
| 21:52.09 | seebs | That'd mean that if there's three DPS and a tank, the 15% increase will be roughly equal to the 50% decrease. Give or take. |
| 21:52.18 | Thorarin | Very rough guess, but 6 or 7 sounds about right to me |
| 21:52.43 | Noshei | a bard will never do 50% of the damage they could as dps |
| 21:52.44 | Thorarin | But depends on how many tanks and healers you need, blabla |
| 21:52.49 | Noshei | maybe 30% max |
| 21:52.55 | Thorarin | Nah |
| 21:53.09 | Thorarin | I've seen Bards do decent dps |
| 21:53.33 | seebs | My damage output on archon isn't awful. It's not insanely good, but it doesn't strike me as being <50% of my damage output in DPS specs. |
| 21:53.34 | Thorarin | tac/bard, single target fights |
| 21:53.42 | seebs | Haven't actually parsed it yet, though. |
| 21:54.09 | seebs | I know that, back in WoW, once you overgeared content it really stopped mattering anyway. |
| 21:54.20 | seebs | I would heal dungeons in a balance druid spec. |
| 21:54.30 | Noshei | well I'm also in a fairly decent raid guild, where we expect dps to do pretty good numbers |
| 21:54.44 | Noshei | and bard just doesn't have that much they can do. |
| 21:54.45 | seebs | What's a "pretty good" number at cap for raiders? |
| 21:54.57 | Noshei | that is 100% fight dependent |
| 21:55.11 | seebs | Would five-digit numbers be likely? |
| 21:55.15 | seebs | I have *no* frame of reference. |
| 21:55.31 | Noshei | um some fights we have dps in the 40k range |
| 21:55.40 | Noshei | some they are in the 15-20k range |
| 21:55.43 | seebs | k. |
| 21:56.00 | seebs | Part of my problem is just not even knowing what the baselines are like. |
| 22:00.00 | seebs | I should get a parser and do some science. What's good in parsers these days? |
| 22:23.18 | Thorarin | None of them :P |
| 22:54.51 | seebs | So one of the loyalty rewards was an 80% XP pot, which I arranged to use on 9 carnage quests, a couple of normal quests, 21 crafting dailies/weeklies, and then another 14 crafting dailies. |
| 22:55.12 | seebs | Which ended up going from 58.8 or so to 59.45 or so. Not bad for one potion. |
| 22:55.28 | seebs | At this point, if I just do crafting dailies every day for the weekend I'll have my first 60. |
| 23:04.23 | Noshei | nice |
| 23:04.57 | Noshei | I can't believe it might actually happen, seebs reaching the level cap |
| 23:05.06 | Noshei | and before rift 3.0 |
| 23:12.11 | seebs | heh |
| 23:12.17 | seebs | I am not much of an endgame person normally. |
| 23:12.26 | seebs | I actually raided in wotlk, because I fell in with raiders. |
| 23:13.04 | seebs | I wasn't actually in a raiding guild per se, but some of the raiders I knew would invite friends to fill open slots occasionally. |
| 23:19.07 | Noshei | ah |