| 00:01.13 | Imhothar | Hotline Miami really hurts my brain |
| 00:01.38 | Imhothar | though that one is quite an extreme |
| 00:01.50 | ZorbaTHut | yeah that's the point where they're going for artistic style, not just practicality |
| 00:08.24 | Imhothar | For me a game like Terraria has the lower bound on resolution and texture quality. If it goes lower I'm usually not interested any more |
| 00:25.42 | Imhothar | hmm so it turns out making a game spanning an entire solar system, double's aren't precise enough |
| 00:25.51 | Imhothar | if you want the units in millimeters |
| 00:26.11 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, one way to sort of work around that is to use fixints of some kind |
| 00:26.36 | ZorbaTHut | the problem with doubles is that their precision scales, which is great for "it basically works in all cases" but sometimes not so good for "it definitely works in this precise case" |
| 00:26.39 | Imhothar | goes only to about 60AUs which would be enough for Pluto but not Sedna |
| 00:26.59 | Imhothar | double precision is maps to integers up to 2^53 |
| 00:27.22 | Imhothar | Sedna's aphelion is over 500AU out |
| 00:27.56 | ZorbaTHut | note that most greater-than-planet-sized games I've seen have gone with some kind of nested sphere of influence deal |
| 00:28.05 | Imhothar | aye |
| 00:28.11 | ZorbaTHut | it's not like anyone will ever build a single contiguous structure from the sun to Sedna |
| 00:28.18 | Imhothar | you have to unless you do all computations with int64 |
| 00:28.58 | Imhothar | it gets funny if you do procedural systems |
| 00:29.12 | Imhothar | they recently found a gas giant that orbits its stars at about 400AUs |
| 00:29.20 | Imhothar | that would be hell of a challenge for KSP |
| 00:31.33 | ZorbaTHut | I wish KSP's physics was better - they don't even handle gravity from more than one body at a time :/ |
| 00:31.59 | ZorbaTHut | and the entire physics system seems to be singlethreaded, which I have sympathy for because multithreading sucks, but for a game that is literally all about physics it's kind of unfortunate |
| 00:32.56 | Imhothar | they want to do n-body simulation at some point in the future |
| 00:33.11 | Imhothar | but that would make the game extremely more difficult |
| 00:33.25 | Imhothar | though Lagrange points would make some things very interesting |
| 00:33.33 | Imhothar | Halo orbits ftw |
| 00:33.41 | Imhothar | especially if you play with RemoteTech |
| 00:34.04 | ZorbaTHut | it's sort of funny, they have this back-and-forth thing that keeps happening where they add an awesome new feature, but that feature makes the game a lot harder, so they have to add a new interface to make the feature easier, repeat repeat repeat |
| 00:34.31 | Imhothar | hmm so in theory if one used int64 for all coordinates in mm one could go out all the way out at 0.5ly |
| 00:34.33 | Imhothar | yeah |
| 00:34.37 | ZorbaTHut | I think my favorite example of that is actually an extension - the Deadly Re-entry mod, which makes re-entry incredibly dangerous and then goes and adds heat shields so it's not as dangerous anymore |
| 00:34.52 | Imhothar | it's still extremely dangerous though |
| 00:35.10 | ZorbaTHut | oh, definitely, but it's not the yup-you-lose-always that it would be without the heat shields |
| 00:35.24 | ZorbaTHut | kind of reminds me of an old game called Night Shift - it's about maintaining a gigantic doll-making machine |
| 00:35.57 | ZorbaTHut | every few levels unlocks a new part of the machine, which (1) makes it harder to start the machine properly, (2) makes it harder to keep the damn thing running, but often (3) allows you to do something more clever to get it started again when it breaks |
| 00:36.04 | Imhothar | I think stuff like n-body and orbital decay should be a difficulty setting |
| 00:36.08 | ZorbaTHut | which IMHO is a pretty neat mechanic |
| 00:36.20 | Imhothar | it is |
| 00:36.37 | ZorbaTHut | I'm a bit torn - I like the fact that KSP doesn't have difficulty settings, they just say "hey, you are building spaceships, everyone is building spaceships, enjoy your spaceships, yay spaceships" |
| 00:36.39 | Imhothar | there's enough people who think KSP is too easy |
| 00:36.54 | Imhothar | unstable orbits (especially in the Jool system) would make things much harder |
| 00:36.59 | ZorbaTHut | on the other hand, I really like n-body mechanics, and I totally understand that people don't want to deal with those |
| 00:37.24 | Imhothar | you can't reliably predict the orbit in a n-body system |
| 00:37.32 | Imhothar | then there's perturbation |
| 00:37.40 | Imhothar | perturbation cna screw up your day |
| 00:37.40 | ZorbaTHut | not entirely certain how to reconcile those, unfortunately. while you can get away with adding challenge by avoiding certain parts, you can't really "avoid" n-body mechanics if they're put in. |
| 00:38.22 | Imhothar | unless it's a difficulty setting though. having one orbital engine doing n-body and the other patched cones should be possible |
| 00:38.46 | ZorbaTHut | I think it'd be reasonable to have a very small set of difficulty settings |
| 00:38.56 | Imhothar | real life satellite's a re correcting themselves automatically using supercomputers on earth so... yeah |
| 00:38.58 | ZorbaTHut | not "you can turn these dozen features on and off", but "arcade" and "realistic", maybe. |
| 00:39.14 | ZorbaTHut | and then of course someone will make a mod to provide a dozen features you can turn on and off, but that's totally okay |
| 00:39.51 | Imhothar | I like MechJeb. After doing a gazillion circularization butns and rendevouzs it's a welcome addition |
| 00:40.19 | ZorbaTHut | I still actually need to get the game, I mostly just watch videos of people doing ridiculous things |
| 00:40.40 | ZorbaTHut | sometimes ridiculous in the "you cannot actually have expected that rocket to work" sense, sometimes in the "I cannot believe that rocket actually worked" sense. |
| 00:40.44 | Imhothar | after you did those maneuvers a few times it's always the same just between different bodies |
| 00:41.16 | Imhothar | It's funny people though in the beginning it's just a planar game and you just fly rockets as high as you can |
| 00:41.23 | Imhothar | until some actual astronomers got into orbit |
| 00:41.54 | ZorbaTHut | hah |
| 00:42.14 | Imhothar | one of the first ones to get into orbit was Scott Manley, who is sort of a celebrity in the KSP community |
| 00:42.24 | ZorbaTHut | yeah he's one of the people whose videos I watch |
| 00:42.32 | ZorbaTHut | enjoying his interstellar series right now |
| 00:42.40 | Imhothar | yup |
| 00:44.29 | ZorbaTHut | there was some other guy, whose name I don't remember offhand, who did a multi-planet tour using only SRBs |
| 00:44.38 | ZorbaTHut | including landing |
| 00:45.40 | Imhothar | The n-body physics would certainly allow a few interesting things, especially considering the communication satellites, but one would need some sort of advance warning when the orbit of your space station becomes unstable because a moon 1000000000m away came out of its planet's eclipse |
| 00:46.20 | Imhothar | or have parts that keep an object in preset apo/periapsis using monopropellants like the ISS does it |
| 00:46.37 | ZorbaTHut | I think the research tree might make it work - just allow research unlocks that act as AI stabilizers |
| 00:47.07 | ZorbaTHut | with an added window that gives estimates of when your satellites run out of fuel and fall down (so to speak) |
| 00:47.47 | Imhothar | I think the problem there is predicting when an orbit becomes unstable |
| 00:47.49 | ZorbaTHut | sort of in the same way that SAS just does stuff for you - it's clear the designers aren't totally averse to computer-controlled stabilizers |
| 00:47.59 | Imhothar | you'd have to run the simulation days/weeks/months in advance |
| 00:48.21 | *** join/#riftuidev Amadeus- (~amadeus@66-215-115-177.dhcp.gvrb.ca.charter.com) |
| 00:48.49 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, I don't quite know how that would work. for near satellites it's kind of irrelevant, atmospheric friction will be a far bigger issue than tiny perturbations caused by other bodies |
| 00:49.05 | ZorbaTHut | for geostationary or whatever, it's less clear :/ |
| 00:49.10 | Imhothar | unless you're in a system like Jool with many moons |
| 00:49.48 | Imhothar | but even in our system the orbit of Mercury jiggles around a LOT due to the outer giants |
| 00:50.22 | *** join/#riftuidev Amadeus- (~amadeus@66-215-115-177.dhcp.gvrb.ca.charter.com) |
| 00:50.52 | Imhothar | one could limit the simulation to the local sphere of influence, reducing computational overhead, but that makes sun-planet halo orbits impossible |
| 00:51.19 | ZorbaTHut | I'm curious what the computational cost of doing the fastforward actually would be. let's be honest here, even calculating the forces of fifty objects on each other is just not all that difficult |
| 00:51.21 | Imhothar | or horseshoe orbits |
| 00:51.35 | ZorbaTHut | and no launched object is going to have a measurable effect on any of the KSP major bodies |
| 00:52.04 | Imhothar | yes, I assume artifical objects have negligible mass |
| 00:52.22 | ZorbaTHut | the wiki lists a total of 17 celestial bodies |
| 00:52.40 | ZorbaTHut | depending on simulation resolution, you could probably look ahead *quite* far |
| 00:52.47 | Imhothar | probably |
| 00:53.08 | Imhothar | though you have to remember the entire KSP system fits inside the orbit of Venus but uses the same planet masses as real planets |
| 00:53.23 | Imhothar | so all the 17 bodies will have a *huge* influence on your stuff |
| 00:53.45 | Imhothar | I think the orbital bodies themselves would still need to go on rails otherwise the system would fly apart |
| 00:54.01 | ZorbaTHut | yeah that's probably true |
| 00:54.14 | ZorbaTHut | at that point, though, it really wouldn't be hard to simulate - GPUs are good at this sort of thing |
| 00:54.40 | ZorbaTHut | the effect of 17 bodies on what is practically a point mass is quite easy to calculate |
| 00:54.53 | Imhothar | it is |
| 00:54.54 | ZorbaTHut | especially given that we're giving the finger to relativity :V |
| 00:55.18 | ZorbaTHut | (I would love for KSP to try handling relativity but I think that might be a bit beyond them) |
| 00:55.47 | Imhothar | but given the scale they are working with making orbits stable for your satellites might be really hard |
| 00:56.01 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, that's true. a problem with their tiny compact solar system |
| 00:56.07 | Imhothar | what, you want frame dragging? ;) |
| 00:56.29 | ZorbaTHut | yes! :D |
| 00:56.46 | Imhothar | RemoteTech has a signal delay based on a reduced speed of light |
| 00:57.07 | ZorbaTHut | also relativistic speeds - I should be able to accelerate a spaceship up to 0.999c and have its onboard Kerbals use reduced oxygen compared to the reference frame of Kerbin ;) |
| 00:57.34 | ZorbaTHut | I am curious what their long-term plans are, honestly |
| 00:57.54 | Imhothar | me too |
| 00:58.15 | ZorbaTHut | they're not *that* far away from having relevant present-day-realistic rocket parts and game mechanics - at that point they either need to go into superscience, super-realism, or start inventing a plotline and a real campaign |
| 00:58.38 | Imhothar | I think they are focusing on career mode at the moment |
| 00:58.43 | ZorbaTHut | they're well past the early days when it was clear the next step was "make rockets more awesome". |
| 00:58.57 | Imhothar | the KSP rockets are actually terribly powerful |
| 00:59.59 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, it's a pretty humbling experience to see how difficult it is to get into space, even given limitless resources and limitless sacrificial crew . . . and then realize that you're using superrockets launched from an unrealistically small planet |
| 01:00.18 | Imhothar | yup |
| 01:00.31 | Imhothar | if you want the real thing go Orbiter |
| 01:00.49 | Imhothar | with a prebuilt spacecraft which we know can go into space |
| 01:01.35 | ZorbaTHut | I know there's a few mods aimed towards Earth-sized Kerbin and appropriately scaled solar systems. one problem, though, is if you try to build anything that is actually the size of the Saturn V, the game physics creak to a halt |
| 01:01.38 | Imhothar | but I'm glad they made the planet smaller. Having every single launch-to-orbit take 15 minutes would alienate lots of people |
| 01:01.54 | ZorbaTHut | and of course if you were trying to get to a Pluto-analogue it would be far, far, far worse |
| 01:02.20 | Imhothar | there's the realistic solar system mod |
| 01:02.26 | Imhothar | it even inclines the Mun's orbit |
| 01:02.40 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, that's the name of it - couldn't remember what it was called |
| 01:02.56 | Imhothar | but the game is unable to tilt the rotation axis so that's still missing |
| 01:03.28 | Imhothar | it would add further difficulty if your launch pad wasn't on the equator |
| 01:03.46 | Imhothar | no real life launch is on the equator |
| 01:03.52 | ZorbaTHut | I also saw one rather hilarious mod with bizarre planets, including one planet spinning so fast that the surface at the equator was traveling above escape velocity |
| 01:04.00 | Imhothar | yup |
| 01:04.06 | Imhothar | and Scott Manley landed on its pole |
| 01:04.11 | ZorbaTHut | hah, yep |
| 01:04.37 | ZorbaTHut | out of curiosity, do you know if there's a reason we don't launch from the equator, besides "north america isn't on the equator"? |
| 01:04.52 | Imhothar | political reasons I'd assume |
| 01:05.19 | Imhothar | the ISS was placed in orbit so it can be reached from Kazachstan and Florida |
| 01:05.41 | Imhothar | *easily |
| 01:05.46 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, I'm looking at a map right now and there aren't too many countries super-allied with the US that are significantly more equatorial |
| 01:05.57 | Imhothar | aye |
| 01:06.21 | ZorbaTHut | the best bet would probably be the northern tip of Australia and I doubt anyone is excited at the idea of shipping stuff that far. |
| 01:06.23 | Imhothar | make a floating space center in the atlantic |
| 01:06.54 | Imhothar | unless you make australia the new spacecraft-part-super-industry-country |
| 01:07.57 | ZorbaTHut | reminds me of Copenhagen Suborbitals, the guys who built a submarine for fun, and now are trying to build a manned rocket ship for fun |
| 01:08.20 | Imhothar | you men the Tycho Brahe? |
| 01:08.20 | ZorbaTHut | with their ocean-based launch platform towed by their submarine, 'cause, well, they had it lying around, why not |
| 01:08.26 | Imhothar | *mean |
| 01:08.43 | Imhothar | one-man space rocket |
| 01:08.48 | ZorbaTHut | ah, looks like it, didn't know they'd named the thing |
| 01:09.39 | ZorbaTHut | looks like that was their first version, now decommissioned |
| 01:10.38 | ZorbaTHut | anyway they're totally crazy and I love them :D |
| 01:11.17 | seebs | Uh, Zorba... Inspect.Documentation() already picks up other APIs. |
| 01:11.26 | seebs | In fact, one of the things I frequently forget is *not* to do that. |
| 01:11.38 | seebs | For a while my rift documentation page had a bunch of Banaano's stuff listed. |
| 01:11.42 | ZorbaTHut | seebs, hmm, it does? maybe other people are hooking it |
| 01:11.54 | ZorbaTHut | which is probably a reasonable approach, all things considered |
| 01:11.54 | seebs | Could be. Not sure now. |
| 01:12.19 | seebs | I concluded that I want the ability to synthesize events like Event.Unit.Detail.Zone, because I could then make an addon which faked that up. |
| 01:12.42 | seebs | And handled cases where we can infer that a zone change occurred even though we weren't around to detect it. |
| 01:12.48 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, at some point I want to support that. low priority atm though |
| 01:12.56 | seebs | Yeah. |
| 01:13.18 | seebs | I now have a brilliant demonstration to provide to the GM team, or whoever, of how the moderation stuff is affecting the game. |
| 01:13.36 | seebs | I have a few hours of chat during which Ibby is friendly and helpful, and a few hours during which a couple of trolls keep poking her and she's lashing out at anyone and everyone. |
| 01:14.12 | seebs | This really establishes my claim, I feel, that the problem is not that all these people are bad, but that a very small number of people are actively stoking the fires, and that when they're gone, things are lovely. |
| 01:14.58 | ZorbaTHut | another point is something the LoL team has mentioned - most people aren't trying to be toxic, and just telling them "hey, you're being bad, stop it, here is a mandatory cooldown period" can get them to behave better |
| 01:15.31 | seebs | Yeah. |
| 01:16.06 | seebs | Faeblight right now has Bowserprinceinity (a returning banned user), Vveedin (and his alts, all named Vveedsomething), and Fuhk. |
| 01:16.18 | seebs | And when at least one or two of them are around, chat tends to suck, and when they're gone, it's pretty awesome. |
| 01:16.51 | seebs | Given that I know multiple people Bowser has threatened to rape, I am pretty sure he is in fact trying to be toxic. Oh, also, he has specifically stated that his goal is to be the next hitler, which he will accomplish because he is not limited like normal people are. |
| 01:17.02 | seebs | I'm pretty sure he's sincere, and also that he is in fact 15. |
| 01:17.38 | seebs | Vveed isn't really *toxic*, exactly, it's just that all he cares about is that people agree that pot is wonderful and solves all problems, and not say anything bad about drugs. And that they're noticing him. |
| 01:17.45 | seebs | Fuhk, well. The name says it all. :P |
| 01:17.53 | Imhothar | let him play on some German servers, let's see how long it takes to get him banned with the Hitler wishes |
| 01:17.57 | seebs | I actually sent gm_feedback a concrete suggestion about this. |
| 01:18.15 | seebs | Which is: I think it should be a default corporate policy that Trion staff, when playing Rift, keep 1-29 up and don't use /ignore. |
| 01:18.31 | Imhothar | but that would ruin their game |
| 01:18.38 | seebs | Part of the problem is that the GMs have to go off reports, they can't just monitor chat, so they don't necessarily know all the people involved. |
| 01:18.41 | Imhothar | can't expect that from them poor devs |
| 01:18.58 | seebs | Hey, I stay in 1-29 all the time. And you know what? For most of the last week, it's been *fun*. |
| 01:19.07 | seebs | Like, the game is more fun with it open than it would be without it. |
| 01:19.10 | Imhothar | *fun* |
| 01:19.31 | Imhothar | so those aren't irony stars? |
| 01:19.35 | seebs | Nope. |
| 01:19.37 | Imhothar | oh |
| 01:19.40 | seebs | Genuinely amusing, or just pleasant. |
| 01:19.58 | seebs | Watching people ask for advice and actually get useful advice, or watching people goofing off in ways that aren't rooted in trying to make other people mad. |
| 01:20.25 | seebs | I was teaching people how to do old-school "trolling" where the goal is actually to be funny, and it is mandatory to admit it when called on it. |
| 01:20.37 | seebs | e.g., "I heard you can roleplay in Rift, do I need to get dice?" |
| 01:21.05 | seebs | Thing is, if GMs just have a few lines of chat, and they don't want to spend half an hour reading logs, it's hard to make a judgment call. |
| 01:21.24 | seebs | But if you've been there for four hours and watched someone show up and start picking fights, you know what's happening, and you can identify a likely fix. |
| 01:21.50 | seebs | Now that there *are* times when the trolls are gone, I've discovered that Ibby is actually pretty chill when people aren't harassing her. |
| 01:22.12 | seebs | But yeah, if someone had just popped in and chat-muted maybe three people, 1-29 would have stayed pleasant, I think. |
| 01:23.45 | seebs | And I'd totally advocate a scorched-earth policy for Bowser, because you do *not* want people who regularly threaten to rape people in your game. Fuhk, eh, ban him once, he might come back but will likely keep a lower profile. Vveed... I have no clue. Me, I'd ban him for egging people on, but I am a total control freak. |
| 01:24.02 | seebs | There's other people who occasionally troll but are at least capable of being funny. ... Me among them, of course. :) |
| 01:24.28 | seebs | I generally do try to give real answers to questions, although sometimes first I give a useless answer. |
| 01:24.38 | seebs | e.g., "What do REX go for?" "$10."" |
| 01:24.44 | seebs | s/""/"/ |
| 01:24.44 | Imhothar | you evil person |
| 01:25.23 | seebs | But then I follow up with something like "hovers around 1k plat, you'll see as low as 900 and as high as 1200. Most people will pay about .7p per credit for gifted store items, so 875's a pretty solid lower bound." |
| 01:25.47 | seebs | Also, earlier today: "Where do I spend empyreal sourcestones?" "At your computer. Use the Rift client." |
| 01:32.43 | ZorbaTHut | re: dice, I remember hearing a rather amusing story about someone who discovered the D&D dice crafting recipes in SWG |
| 01:32.54 | ZorbaTHut | and crafted a set of them, then played D&D with a few friends, within SWG |
| 01:33.05 | seebs | Haha. |
| 01:33.27 | seebs | Literally two days before Blizzard convinced me I never wanted to touch their stuff ever again, I was trying to organize a regular D&D game in WoW. :P |
| 01:34.19 | seebs | I've actually been thinking of doing some RP organization stuff, some of which would be addon based. |
| 01:34.32 | seebs | BTW, while I'm mentioning things that would be great addon API features, but probably hard to implement: |
| 01:34.45 | seebs | Storage category: "dimension". |
| 01:35.25 | seebs | Idea is, an addon could be used to store information in a dimension, so that visitors running an addon which reads the data can get things like narration or descriptions of locations. |
| 01:35.29 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, that'd be kind of neat |
| 01:35.31 | ZorbaTHut | tough to do, though :) |
| 01:35.55 | seebs | I don't know how easy/hard, or how much storage would be needed. I'd assume the space limits would be less brutal than they are for players, because I assume fewer dimensions are loaded at once. |
| 01:35.57 | Noshei | and a bit costly |
| 01:36.16 | ZorbaTHut | well, the one very nice thing about dimensions is that we don't load them until they're needed, and overall, very few of them are loaded at a time |
| 01:36.31 | seebs | I was thinking about a guest book feature, but actually that can just be done with the mail API as long as there's a mailbox eventually. |
| 01:36.34 | ZorbaTHut | guilds have to be loaded nearly constantly, and players are of course loaded in huge bulk |
| 01:36.59 | Noshei | ZorbaTHut: is a character loaded when it is logged in or are all characters on an account loaded when the account logd in? |
| 01:37.01 | seebs | But you'd need to have a way to identify a dimension's owner. So if we had Inspect.Dimension.Detail() and Inspect.Storage.*('dimension', ...), that would all work. |
| 01:37.11 | ZorbaTHut | noshei, I believe only the character you actually log in is loaded |
| 01:37.29 | seebs | Observations: Obviously, if account data were really fully available, we'd have account-wide ignore now. |
| 01:37.40 | seebs | Especially since it was at one point advertised to be an intended feature of report-spam. |
| 01:37.45 | seebs | But! |
| 01:37.46 | Noshei | thats good, cuts down on the total number of characters loaded at one time |
| 01:37.54 | seebs | ascend-a-friend linked accounts DO get automatic instant friend additions. |
| 01:37.59 | ZorbaTHut | yeah the memory would be pretty expensive |
| 01:38.14 | seebs | So the moment I log in a new character, I get friend notifications for any friends on linked accounts. |
| 01:38.39 | seebs | Which means that the mechanisms sort-of-exist, it's just that it would be expensive to proc them for everything in your lists every time you log in. |
| 01:38.46 | Noshei | gah, I would love to see how the datacenter is setup. |
| 01:39.05 | seebs | Because I'm pretty sure that an account-wide-friends thing would have to be implemented as "iterate list of known friends looking for other characters on their accounts". |
| 01:39.16 | seebs | Although! One of the recent patches added alts to the mail autocomplete. |
| 01:39.29 | seebs | I hypothesize that someone is doing the groundwork that would be necessary to give us account-wide ignore. |
| 01:39.55 | ZorbaTHut | noshei, would you believe I actually don't know? :V |
| 01:40.09 | Noshei | not at all |
| 01:40.55 | *** join/#riftuidev ZorbaTHut (tocohl@maximilian.pavlovian.net) |
| 01:40.55 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+o ZorbaTHut] by ChanServ |
| 01:41.04 | Noshei | from what I've seen not many programmers really know or understand how a datacenter works. |
| 01:41.07 | seebs | Zorba ragequit when you accused him of lying. :P |
| 01:41.25 | seebs | Although I think you actually answered "would it surprise you that" rather than "would you believe". |
| 01:41.27 | ZorbaTHut | sigh, stupid x-chat |
| 01:41.40 | seebs | Oh, you use xchat? |
| 01:41.47 | Noshei | oh yeah so I did seebs |
| 01:41.54 | ZorbaTHut | from what I understand, hardware-wise, it's a pretty generic bunch of blades - we're not doing anything crazy like CCP's massive infiniband networks |
| 01:42.02 | seebs | So, at work, I use xchat. |
| 01:42.07 | seebs | And we have an IRC network internally. |
| 01:42.19 | seebs | And Because Of Reasons, we have nothing like chanserv. |
| 01:42.28 | seebs | So we can end up with a case where a channel has no ops and we can't create ops. |
| 01:42.42 | seebs | So a few months back, I spent two hours learning xchat enough to make an auto-op script for it. |
| 01:42.57 | Noshei | infiniband is really over kill for most things. I mean really who needs to move data at 40gig/s |
| 01:43.01 | seebs | It's super useful. |
| 01:43.08 | Imhothar | CCP does |
| 01:43.25 | seebs | Basically, as long as someone can remember to op me in a channel before all the other ops get lost, we will always end up with lots of people with ops. |
| 01:43.28 | Imhothar | or it's just bragging rights, who knows |
| 01:43.36 | Imhothar | crazy Icelanders |
| 01:43.50 | ZorbaTHut | in terms of software, http://edition.cnn.com/2011/TECH/gaming.gadgets/04/08/rift.trion.online/index.html is a writeup that is kind of garbled and nonsensical in ways, but the interesting line that I can vouch for - "Trion servers are broken down by function, unlike other games in which servers are devoted to particular locations in the game." |
| 01:43.55 | Noshei | I'd love to see how they are actually using it, cause I doubt that any mmo is moving that much data around to actually need it |
| 01:43.58 | ZorbaTHut | most of the rest of the article should probably just be ignored though :V |
| 01:44.14 | seebs | Yeah, I thought the functional breakdown was a fascinating idea. |
| 01:44.50 | seebs | I still don't know whether it works well, but it's fascinating. |
| 01:44.52 | Noshei | I would say that actually makes more sense, but I guess it really depends on what they consider a functional difference in certain aspects of the game |
| 01:45.14 | Noshei | would you consider a raid zone functionally different than an open world zone, for instance. |
| 01:45.34 | Noshei | techanically, they are the same thing, but the use case is functionally different. |
| 01:45.50 | seebs | I think it wasn't |
| 01:45.53 | seebs | "zones" at all. |
| 01:46.11 | seebs | But rather, something like "a server that does players", "a server that does combat", "a server that does environmental things like nodes". |
| 01:47.02 | Noshei | but then you will end up having a few really large server clusters, which could be good or bad |
| 01:47.20 | seebs | It might be more fussy, and there might be subdivisions. |
| 01:47.22 | Noshei | where as with the other model you would end up with a lot of smaller clusters |
| 01:47.41 | seebs | People have said things which lead me strongly to believe that at least *some* things are now split between old world (Mathosia) and new world (Brevane/Dusken). |
| 01:47.58 | Noshei | you can't really subdivide server clusters in any way that I know of. Unless trion is using their own clustering technology. |
| 01:48.01 | seebs | But for instance, say you had a single "chat" server for the entire shard. That would be way more efficient than having chat stuff for each zone interacting. |
| 01:48.44 | seebs | Well, imagine that you have a system where you have, say, an "items" server and an "NPCs" server, and one does all the item-movement and storage for the world, and one does all the NPCs for the world. |
| 01:48.54 | seebs | You could in principle split at least the NPC one up into zones, too. |
| 01:49.30 | Noshei | yeah but from hardware prespective you're still using the same resources |
| 01:49.32 | seebs | And I suppose some (like, chat) might be easier to scale. |
| 01:49.35 | seebs | Could be. |
| 01:49.49 | Noshei | it seems we are thinking of it at different levels |
| 01:49.50 | seebs | ... BTW, on the list of "man wouldn't it be cool" features: Rift desperately needs linkshells. |
| 01:50.17 | seebs | Because we have these very half-baked channel moderation features that are basically not usable, so private channels can get abused horribly by trolls. |
| 01:50.27 | ZorbaTHut | and now that I've gotten you all talking about server architecture, I'm heading off to bed ;) |
| 01:50.45 | Noshei | night |
| 01:52.14 | Noshei | seebs: I get the impression you are looking at servers from more of a programmer perspective, those things that do what I tell it. Where as I'm looking at it from a hardware perspective, the physical devices I let the program run on. |
| 01:52.42 | seebs | Seeya, Zorba. |
| 01:53.17 | seebs | Well, shards are obviously clusters of machines. |
| 01:53.41 | Noshei | I would guess that everything is running on clusters |
| 01:53.44 | seebs | The traditional solution, I believe, has been to divide the world into parts, and each part is handled by what might be a machine, but is probably actually a cluster of machines running related software. |
| 01:54.14 | seebs | But you'd have the "world server" for a given continent, or whatever, and that "server" (again, I am pretty sure actually several physical machines) runs everything for that continent. |
| 01:54.21 | Noshei | I would be extremely surprised if trion had anything live running on any non clustered devices |
| 01:54.35 | seebs | So one shard => several "servers", each of which was itself a cluster responsible for some region of the world. |
| 01:54.56 | seebs | And if I understand correctly, Trion's design is that one shard => several "servers", each of which is responsible for a specific kind of functionality for the entire world. |
| 02:10.02 | Ivnedar | I'd love dimension storage! |
| 02:10.37 | seebs | It would be super awesome. My idea was to have some kind of setup for triggers so you can have messages when you get to particular places. |
| 02:11.06 | Ivnedar | Hrrm, can you setup dimension permissions to give people the ability to move an item, but not remove it? |
| 02:11.34 | Ivnedar | guessing not |
| 02:13.00 | seebs | I don't know. |
| 02:42.38 | Repo | raidcooldowns: quickgric * r30 RaidCoolDowns.lua: Heat wave fix, new flaring debuff mechanic |
| 03:35.15 | Noshei | Ivnedar: yes you can |
| 03:35.22 | Noshei | for the dimension permissions |
| 03:36.24 | Noshei | there are 3 permission categories (firends, guild, and public) and each can be given (In this order) Move, Place, and Pick Up permissions. |
| 03:36.56 | Noshei | The permissions are additive, so to give them Pick Up you have to give them Move and Place, but you can just give them Move Permission. |
| 03:54.27 | *** join/#riftuidev onsight666 (~onsight66@cpc15-uddi22-2-0-cust106.20-3.cable.virginm.net) |
| 03:56.50 | onsight666 | Hey all, long time no speak :3 |
| 03:58.18 | Ivnedar | nice |
| 03:58.51 | Ivnedar | 'cause I have an addon that animates a dimension, but due to the propagation delay of dimension item moves, it looks terrible to others |
| 03:58.55 | Noshei | yeah dimension permissions are decently well setup |
| 03:59.18 | Ivnedar | if we had dimension storage, I could store a script for the dimension in its storage, give people move access and they can run it when they enter |
| 04:45.50 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar_ (~Imhothar@ppp-188-174-142-51.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 05:01.55 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar__ (~Imhothar@ppp-93-104-182-31.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 05:05.54 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar___ (~Imhothar@ppp-188-174-113-249.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 05:16.08 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar_ (~Imhothar@ppp-188-174-74-220.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 05:39.02 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar__ (~Imhothar@ppp-188-174-128-159.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 07:48.37 | seebs | I've figured out the essential problem with Rift's addon API. |
| 07:48.43 | seebs | Which is that coding addons doesn't give XP. |
| 07:49.40 | Ivnedar | heh heh |
| 07:49.49 | Ivnedar | if you work the donation angle, it may give game time |
| 07:50.01 | Ivnedar | (not that I'm encouraging that, but it's an option) |
| 07:50.32 | Ivnedar | or was that a dig at FFXIV? :P |
| 09:44.47 | Ivnedar | hrrm, 3 day patron passes are gone? |
| 09:46.35 | Ivnedar | or are they disabled on the weekend, hrrm |
| 09:49.00 | Thorarin | Doubt it |
| 09:49.12 | Thorarin | Weekends always had the weekend warrior bundles... |
| 09:49.54 | Thorarin | Hmm, it's missing indeed |
| 09:59.41 | Ivnedar | hrrm, is the weekend warrior one up? |
| 09:59.44 | Ivnedar | can't see it |
| 11:05.34 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar (~Imhothar@ppp-188-174-125-75.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 11:11.57 | Ivnedar | woo, irrigation system setup in vegetable garden |
| 11:23.47 | seebs | One of the trolls is whining about how Trion is picking on him. |
| 11:23.59 | seebs | Because he got a 24-hour ban, and then he went to another account and trolled and OMG TRION IS PICKING ON ME. |
| 11:24.00 | Ivnedar | "Why would they be doing that?" |
| 11:24.17 | seebs | Note that he's not yet figured out the connection between "I tell everyone who I am" and "somehow Trion figures out who I am". |
| 11:24.52 | seebs | Ah, well. zzz. |
| 11:24.56 | Ivnedar | nite :) |
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| 18:46.11 | *** join/#riftuidev ZorbaBeta (tocohl@maximilian.pavlovian.net) |
| 19:39.11 | *** join/#riftuidev Noshei (~quassel@c-24-9-171-99.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 19:57.57 | Repo | raidcooldowns: quickgric * r31 RaidCoolDowns.lua: heat wave fix again |
| 20:00.23 | onsight666 | Hey peeps :) |
| 20:00.40 | onsight666 | quick question XD i've been away from rift for a while has much changed? |
| 20:26.28 | Imhothar | my crystal ball was unable to determine how much "a while" is |
| 20:36.49 | ZorbaBeta | onsight, generally if you have to ask that question, the answer is "a lot" |
| 20:39.21 | onsight666 | lol imhothar, a while is about a year - year and a half |
| 20:39.51 | onsight666 | i guess your right zorba, i might as well re-install and find out for myself huh? XD |
| 21:54.37 | Ivnedar | seebs maintains a "what's changed" type post |
| 21:54.52 | seebs | Yeah, look at the stickies in General Discussions. |
| 21:54.53 | Ivnedar | though, that's more gameplay, I don't think it covered addon stuff |
| 21:55.02 | seebs | "Trion added a new hotkey to report trolls, it's alt+f4." |
| 21:55.20 | Ivnedar | (if that's what the question was about) |
| 21:55.29 | seebs | The addon API changelogs are pretty good anyway. |
| 21:55.34 | Ivnedar | yeah, true! |
| 21:56.02 | seebs | I feel pretty vindicated. |
| 21:56.04 | seebs | Now that a bunch of the trolls are banned, I have been confirmed in my belief: |
| 21:56.15 | seebs | When a troll complains about being banned, the other trolls pretty much just mock them for it. |
| 21:56.24 | seebs | These people do not maintain lookahead. |
| 21:58.05 | Ivnedar | trolling is all in the now |
| 21:58.17 | seebs | See, I just think that's *incompetent* trolling. |
| 21:58.28 | seebs | As long as people are playing fair, I don't mind trolling. |
| 21:58.52 | Ivnedar | the alt-f4 type trolling is borderline for me |
| 21:59.22 | seebs | It's noticably less harmful in Rift, where it gives a logout timer instead of exiting. And it can be unbound. |
| 21:59.25 | Ivnedar | great for getting established players to fall for it |
| 21:59.29 | Ivnedar | not so great for new players |
| 21:59.35 | Ivnedar | oh nice |
| 21:59.38 | Ivnedar | hadn't realised that |
| 21:59.40 | seebs | Yeah, Zorba pointed that out once. |
| 21:59.53 | Ivnedar | but that doesn't happen in town? |
| 21:59.56 | seebs | Apparently some of the devs like countertrolling. |
| 22:00.03 | seebs | Even in town. It pops the logout window, period. |
| 22:00.09 | Ivnedar | weird |
| 22:00.27 | seebs | That may be why exit game gives a timer even when you're in town. |
| 22:00.30 | Ivnedar | 'cause telling people to remember to /camp while in town for the rest xp used to kick people off instantly |
| 22:00.30 | seebs | Log out to character screen has no timer some places, exit game always does. |
| 22:00.53 | seebs | I think "exit game" has a timer anywhere, "log out" doesn't in rest areas. |
| 22:01.12 | seebs | My big rule is: It is *not cool* to not admit to trolling when called on it. |
| 22:01.12 | Ivnedar | and since /camp is a shortcut for logout, it works great :) |
| 22:01.34 | seebs | Because one of the potential harms from trolling is that people who are serious and just don't know something can't distinguish themselves from trolls. |
| 22:01.43 | seebs | The other is, cheap emotional button pushing isn't interesting or funny. |
| 22:01.46 | Ivnedar | oops, bbl, meeting |
| 22:03.40 | seebs | ZorbaBeta, do you happen to remember whether I ever told you about the exploit for getting lowbies into SL content? |
| 22:28.38 | seebs | So, halfway through an onslaught, the planars got bored. |
| 22:28.59 | seebs | Solution: |
| 22:29.20 | seebs | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:31.57 | ZorbaBeta | seebs, yeah, I think so, though I don't remember what it is offhand. I think it's in the "that is tolerable" category |
| 23:32.30 | seebs | It was something like "there's a 3 meter or so area of fatigue buffer that's considered Telara off the coastline and you can be there just long enough to pop a guild banner". |
| 23:32.40 | seebs | I think you'd have to die a fair number of times to find it. |
| 23:33.08 | ZorbaBeta | hah, that is pretty funny. wonder how that happened |
| 23:35.11 | Ivnedar | lol |
| 23:39.20 | seebs | And Bowser's on his third account, crying about how unfair it is that he keeps getting permabanned. |
| 23:39.42 | Ivnedar | has he worked out why he's being banned yet? |
| 23:39.48 | seebs | He doesn't seem to feel that "threatening to repeatedly rape the other players" is a component of this. |
| 23:41.03 | seebs | To be fair, since he was doing it for months before the Great Awakening of the GMs, it's not as though he knew previously that it was an issue. |
| 23:43.13 | Ivnedar | He could be fully in character |
| 23:43.37 | seebs | I don't think he even knows what in-character is. |
| 23:43.57 | Ivnedar | is he threatening to rape their character or them in real life? |
| 23:44.13 | Ivnedar | could be role playing a mentally disturbed telaran |
| 23:44.31 | Ivnedar | akylios may be messing with his head! :O |
| 23:44.40 | Ivnedar | use omen sight on him, quick! |
| 23:45.00 | seebs | Them in real life. |
| 23:45.07 | Ivnedar | ah, I'm out of ideas then |
| 23:45.26 | seebs | I still want to know what the heck actually happened to make all moderation stop for however long that was. |
| 23:45.50 | Ivnedar | someone sued? |
| 23:45.58 | Ivnedar | it'd be the kind of level of thing to stop it surely |
| 23:46.08 | ZorbaBeta | it would be kind of entertaining to roleplay a telaran who is aware that he is just a character in a video game |
| 23:46.25 | Ivnedar | ZorbaBeta: have them add npcs in that are aware :D |
| 23:46.50 | ZorbaBeta | one of the best WoW quests ever was the quest that turns you into a questgiver |
| 23:46.59 | Ivnedar | oh dear, now I'm imagining boss fights where the mechanic is rushing off to google something |
| 23:47.07 | ZorbaBeta | complete with gold exclamation point above head |
| 23:47.13 | Ivnedar | lol, nice :D |
| 23:47.18 | Ivnedar | I don't remember doing that one |
| 23:47.19 | Ivnedar | recent? |
| 23:47.25 | ZorbaBeta | I believe it was in Catacly8sm |
| 23:47.28 | ZorbaBeta | *Cataclysm |
| 23:47.29 | Ivnedar | ah, ok |
| 23:47.39 | Ivnedar | Partly your fault that I didn't see that quest then! |
| 23:47.46 | Ivnedar | (rift came out and I bailed on wow :P) |
| 23:48.18 | ZorbaBeta | http://www.wowhead.com/quest=28096/#comments second comment gives the transscript |
| 23:48.50 | Ivnedar | awwh, horde only |
| 23:48.55 | Ivnedar | another reason why I wouldn't have seen it |
| 23:52.04 | seebs | ZorbaBeta: There is one, that's Poor Tom or whatever his name is. |
| 23:52.34 | seebs | Speaking of which, there's a thing in WoW lore which I suspect is an accident, but would have been one of the coolest things in video game lore if it had been on purpose. |
| 23:52.50 | seebs | There was all this stuff around Uldaman and such talking about the precursors to the current life forms, and the "curse of flesh", and so on. |
| 23:53.22 | seebs | If you consider the game as probably having had a state in which things were wireframe or bare-polygon mockups, with no combat mechanics to result in deaths, it turns out to be factually accurate about the game. |
| 23:57.09 | ZorbaBeta | hah, that would've been clever |
| 23:59.12 | seebs | I would not mind at all if the turnaround time on banning Bowser's accounts were a little shorter, because at this point, I think he's adequately established that he's not going to change his behavior. |
| 23:59.56 | seebs | On the other hand, even this rate of bans seems to have massively improved chat. |