| 00:00.35 | seebs | DDO is a very, very, different thing from most other MMOs. I actually quite like it, but in a completely different way. |
| 00:00.49 | seebs | But I *adore* the "you don't get XP from killing mobs" design choice. |
| 00:01.36 | seebs | I don't think every game should be that way, but I am glad a game is that way. |
| 00:03.59 | seebs | I feel vindicated. |
| 00:04.20 | seebs | Back around launch, someone told me that it was not a bug that a lot of low-level items in TSW stopped being disassembleable. It has since been fixed. |
| 01:07.03 | Imhothar | DDO? |
| 01:22.24 | ZorbaTHut | I've been pondering (not related to trion in any way, just on my own time) an approach to MMOs that is kind of what seebs is describing |
| 01:22.51 | ZorbaTHut | make it a voluntary-help deal, make all "competition" be mostly in the form of racing to accomplish things and accomplishing things really well, not direct interference |
| 01:23.55 | ZorbaTHut | unfortunately it's now effectively defunct, but there was a crafting MMO called A Tale In The Desert that did a good job of this - there were certain goals that were semi-competitive, in the sense that only the best player got the reward each week, but there was no way to straight-up destroy someone's work |
| 01:24.01 | Imhothar | I don't like the trend with XP and levels in general |
| 01:24.09 | ZorbaTHut | sadly all the crafting MMOs I know now take the Eve Online model |
| 01:24.31 | ZorbaTHut | (which is a fun model, don't get me wrong, I like Eve Online a lot, but sometimes I'm not in the mood to get my hard work blown up) |
| 01:25.07 | Imhothar | how did it work in the other game? |
| 01:25.38 | ZorbaTHut | which, A Tale In The Desert? |
| 01:25.41 | Imhothar | aye |
| 01:25.46 | ZorbaTHut | there was literally no way to destroy anything that anyone else had done, ever |
| 01:26.00 | Imhothar | hmm |
| 01:26.10 | ZorbaTHut | (well, without their permission, and barring a few cleanup cases like "if someone hasn't logged in for a month, their building can be removed and all the materials will be mailed to them") |
| 01:26.15 | Imhothar | well I guess the fact that everything can be destroyed in Eve keels the economy busy |
| 01:26.25 | Imhothar | *keeps |
| 01:26.26 | ZorbaTHut | Eve is fundamentally a PvP MMO, the goal is to conquer territory |
| 01:26.43 | Imhothar | yeah |
| 01:26.47 | ZorbaTHut | ATITD was a cooperative crafting MMO - the goal was to advance the world's technology, discover how to solve puzzles, and build things that you wanted to build |
| 01:27.11 | ZorbaTHut | after a while, all technology was discovered, and then a month later the game would be reset with a new set of puzzles and mechanics, plus some cosmetics for people who were involved in the last telling |
| 01:27.38 | ZorbaTHut | a lot of people just treated it as a social hangout where you could build neat stuff, which I thought was cool. |
| 01:28.02 | ZorbaTHut | they also had the best guild system on the planet - you could belong to any number of guilds simultaneously |
| 01:33.20 | Imhothar | hmm looking at some videos |
| 01:33.35 | Imhothar | it doesn't *look* impressive |
| 01:34.59 | Imhothar | not sure I would pay 14/mo for it |
| 01:45.58 | LeadGuitar | a tale in the desert was awesome |
| 01:47.09 | LeadGuitar | And i thought minecraft would be a failure |
| 01:47.18 | Imhothar | "was"? |
| 01:47.25 | Imhothar | as far as I can see it's still running |
| 01:51.17 | LeadGuitar | I left when it became a large circle jerk among the "elite" |
| 01:51.31 | LeadGuitar | a community based game lives or dies on community quality |
| 01:52.13 | Imhothar | you'll always have people who think themselves above other |
| 01:52.16 | Imhothar | s |
| 01:52.54 | LeadGuitar | Which is great until it's the people in power so to speak |
| 01:53.11 | Imhothar | it's always them |
| 01:55.24 | seebs | DDO => D&D Online. It's a pretty wildly different approach. |
| 01:55.44 | seebs | Was thinking a bit about the multiboxing threads, and a thing has occurred to me, which I sort of noticed before but didn't think about the implications of. |
| 01:56.05 | seebs | There were often people arguing that multiboxing should be banned because of the huge advantages it gave, and the fact that there was no way for other players to beat a multiboxer. |
| 01:56.37 | seebs | There were also people arguing that it should be banned because it made five characters on a team ineffectual, and your team was doomed to lose if five of your slots were taken up by a multiboxer. |
| 01:56.44 | seebs | And these people *never argued with each other*. |
| 01:57.01 | seebs | I think that is compelling evidence that it's the social thing, not the game mechanics thing, which is at issue. |
| 01:57.27 | seebs | I can even think of an easy way to test this, only it would require ridiculously huge resources and be a very expensive experiment. |
| 01:57.50 | seebs | Which would be to gather a bunch of the people who think multiboxers are too powerful, and have them test out various alleged changes. |
| 01:58.25 | seebs | In fact, the real change being made would be that, in the test environment, multiboxers did half-or-less damage, enough that it would be trivially obvious that they were not in practice overpowered. |
| 01:58.46 | Imhothar | hm people are already talking about Rift 3.0 and I haven't even played 2 |
| 01:59.07 | seebs | My guess is this would produce no change in complaints over time, but that continued exposure to un-nerfed multiboxers in the presence of skilled players would result in ceasing to freak out, just because people get used to stuff and then it stops freaking them out by being weird. |
| 02:16.50 | *** join/#riftuidev Cairenn (~Owner@MMOI/Administratrix/Cairenn) |
| 02:16.50 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+o Cairenn] by ChanServ |
| 02:22.05 | ZorbaTHut | imhothar, it wasn't a visually impressive game at all, and if I were to do it today there's no way I'd make it subscription-based |
| 02:22.16 | ZorbaTHut | as I said, it's pretty much dead today - the developers have left and it's mostly running on inertia |
| 02:26.06 | Imhothar | hmm |
| 02:49.26 | seebs | I do like the "be in multiple guilds" thing. |
| 02:49.38 | seebs | Guild coalitions were another way of solving that some. |
| 03:22.23 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar_ (miranda@ppp-93-104-172-27.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 04:12.47 | Solsis00 | is away: I'm busy |
| 04:16.47 | Solsis00 | is back (gone 00:04:01) |
| 04:17.24 | *** join/#riftuidev Solsis00 (~Solsis00@ip98-186-89-123.fv.ks.cox.net) |
| 04:18.50 | *** join/#riftuidev Solsis00 (~Solsis00@ip98-186-89-123.fv.ks.cox.net) |
| 04:20.02 | Solsis00 | is away: I'm busy |
| 04:38.57 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar (miranda@ppp-188-174-143-175.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 05:17.44 | Solsis00 | is back (gone 00:57:42) |
| 05:18.01 | Solsis00 | is away: I'm busy |
| 07:46.01 | Solsis00 | is back (gone 02:27:59) |
| 07:46.15 | Solsis00 | is away: I'm busy |
| 07:47.45 | seebs | That is not the most helpful behavior I have ever seen in an IRC client. |
| 07:48.14 | Imhothar | a bit verbose |
| 08:12.27 | Thorarin | In most busy channels, such notifications are against channel rules :P |
| 08:13.02 | Thorarin | Same for changing nick to Nick|AFK or smt |
| 08:20.21 | seebs | I don't mind things like changing a nick from -afk to not-afk once in the morning when getting to work, and once in the evening when leaving, that's actually sorta handy. |
| 08:24.27 | Thorarin | I don't really mind either personally |
| 08:26.36 | Thorarin | You could just use /away, but nobody actually checks that :P |
| 08:27.20 | Solsis00 | is back (gone 00:41:05) |
| 08:28.26 | Solsis00 | yea.. Just playing with settings.. Hexchat is pretty robust for such a simple application and 64bit |
| 08:28.55 | Thorarin | Why would you need a 64 bit chat application actually? :) |
| 08:29.03 | Solsis00 | you don't really... :P |
| 08:29.23 | Imhothar | for the gargantuan walls of text it has to display? |
| 08:29.55 | Imhothar | Gigabytes of chat history... |
| 08:30.08 | Thorarin | in memory, of course :) |
| 08:30.19 | Imhothar | always |
| 08:31.46 | Imhothar | centuries of chat history |
| 08:31.48 | Ivnedar | curse you "external ip has changed" error! |
| 08:32.31 | Solsis00 | lol |
| 08:33.25 | Solsis00 | is away: AFK |
| 08:33.45 | Solsis00 | ... |
| 08:33.59 | Solsis00 | hmmm... how do you unaway? lol |
| 08:34.09 | Thorarin | Hexchat decided you wasted enough time on chat :P |
| 08:34.26 | Imhothar | you don't? |
| 08:34.39 | Solsis00 | is away: AFK |
| 08:34.44 | Solsis00 | ah.. ok |
| 08:35.05 | Solsis00 | it auto unaway'd me like it was supposed to.. all good. :) |
| 08:35.35 | Thorarin | Nope |
| 08:35.45 | Thorarin | You are now AFK twice :) |
| 08:35.57 | Solsis00 | like Thorarin said.. not that anyone looks at it.. but i like marking when i'm actually not here. |
| 08:36.06 | Solsis00 | Already marked away: AFK |
| 08:36.06 | Solsis00 | <PROTECTED> |
| 08:36.10 | Solsis00 | can't twice |
| 08:36.17 | Solsis00 | not without coming back first |
| 08:36.21 | Imhothar | his keyboard went out the widow |
| 08:36.26 | Imhothar | window |
| 08:36.43 | Thorarin | Oh, but it never said you were back in the channel |
| 08:36.51 | Thorarin | Just said you were AFK twice |
| 08:37.06 | Imhothar | do the afk again I want to see if you somehow change in the member list |
| 08:37.35 | Thorarin | You don't, AFAIK |
| 08:37.43 | Imhothar | then it's rather useless |
| 08:37.50 | Thorarin | There is no notification to the client for it |
| 08:38.09 | Imhothar | the client might be smart |
| 08:38.13 | Imhothar | and parse the text |
| 08:38.20 | Thorarin | There is no text |
| 08:38.39 | Imhothar | [10:34]Solsis00 is away: AFK |
| 08:38.47 | Imhothar | that looks like text to me. either it's plaintext or a command |
| 08:38.49 | Thorarin | That's just the client spamming crap |
| 08:39.03 | Imhothar | it came in color, so who knows |
| 08:39.07 | Thorarin | I was talking about the command on the IRC server |
| 08:39.17 | Thorarin | It's an emote :) |
| 08:39.22 | Thorarin | blah :P |
| 08:39.31 | Imhothar | meh |
| 08:39.44 | Imhothar | useless nonsense |
| 08:42.11 | Solsis00 | doing an /away now.. i think it puts like an icon or something |
| 08:42.14 | Solsis00 | is away: AFK |
| 08:42.22 | Imhothar | nope |
| 08:42.33 | Thorarin | Not on our side |
| 08:42.36 | Imhothar | it's really just an emote |
| 08:42.37 | Solsis00 | like faded me out a different color.. at least on my client it did |
| 08:42.53 | Imhothar | because your client knows you types /away |
| 08:42.57 | Imhothar | typed |
| 08:43.06 | Imhothar | my typing sucks today |
| 08:43.10 | Solsis00 | lol |
| 08:43.15 | Thorarin | Do a /whois Thorarin |
| 08:43.30 | Thorarin | That is the only effect I know of for the /away command on the server |
| 08:43.45 | Imhothar | ya the away info |
| 08:43.56 | Imhothar | but I don't feel like querying people with whois all the time |
| 08:44.06 | Thorarin | Exactly |
| 08:44.31 | Thorarin | Would have been nice if someone made a pseudo-standard notification to clients for it :P |
| 08:44.32 | Solsis00 | did it that time.. unchecked the "announce" option |
| 08:44.59 | Imhothar | "Hiding"? |
| 08:45.01 | Thorarin | Make their names show up differently somehow etc |
| 08:45.17 | Solsis00 | just piddling with it |
| 08:45.37 | Solsis00 | so Hexchat checks the whois I guess |
| 08:45.45 | Solsis00 | I show Thorarin greyed like mine currently |
| 08:46.01 | Solsis00 | same with zz_Cidan |
| 08:46.15 | Solsis00 | So hexchat "monitors" the whois for /away apparently |
| 08:46.59 | Solsis00 | Still not sure how to clear the away though. It has an option to do it automatically but surely there is a manual way as well. Would have to be. |
| 08:47.03 | Thorarin | Could be |
| 08:47.19 | Solsis00 | Well somehow it knows you are away |
| 08:47.21 | Thorarin | But that's a rather heavy weight way of doing it |
| 08:47.42 | Thorarin | The server sending some notification would be better :) |
| 08:47.49 | Solsis00 | agreed |
| 08:47.49 | Thorarin | And it would update faster :P |
| 08:47.55 | Solsis00 | instead of my pc having to look :P |
| 08:48.10 | Imhothar | tried /away with no args? |
| 08:48.10 | Solsis00 | and querying the server etc. |
| 08:48.21 | Thorarin | It's without args to unset |
| 08:48.28 | Imhothar | guess that's what you need a 64bit chat client for |
| 08:48.37 | Solsis00 | was waiting for that |
| 08:48.38 | Solsis00 | lol |
| 08:48.53 | Solsis00 | i tried just /away with no args it said i'm already away |
| 08:49.10 | Imhothar | 64 bit failure |
| 08:49.28 | Solsis00 | hexchat is probably intercepting it and sending it with the arg for what to show me afk with |
| 08:49.29 | Solsis00 | lol |
| 08:50.54 | Solsis00 | So all i had to do was turn off the announce so it doesn't annoy anyone |
| 08:51.11 | Solsis00 | anywhos... so what's everyone up to tonight? |
| 08:51.29 | Thorarin | Waking up :) |
| 08:51.48 | Imhothar | thinking about what to have for lunch |
| 08:52.03 | Thorarin | Haven't had breakfast yet :S |
| 08:52.15 | Imhothar | me neither |
| 08:52.47 | Imhothar | would be breakunch or whatever people call it |
| 08:53.09 | Imhothar | brealunch? breakslow? breaklate? |
| 08:53.51 | Solsis00 | lol |
| 08:54.09 | Imhothar | "the thing experts say you shouldn't be doing"? |
| 08:54.32 | Thorarin | Hmm, Stylists seem to be bugged... |
| 08:54.47 | Thorarin | brunch :) |
| 08:55.56 | Imhothar | isn't brunch between the two? |
| 08:56.15 | Thorarin | More or less, substituting for both |
| 08:56.40 | Imhothar | well, I was looking for the "no breakfast but lunch" thing |
| 08:56.59 | Thorarin | We still call that brunch here :P |
| 08:57.10 | Solsis00 | here as well |
| 09:13.35 | *** join/#riftuidev seebs (~seebs@home.seebs.net) |
| 09:13.35 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+o seebs] by ChanServ |
| 10:02.21 | Baanano | seebs, i'll have a look at it |
| 10:39.15 | ZorbaTHut | my client actually shows "is away" people greyed-out, but I'm guessing it's just parsing channel text |
| 10:43.20 | Imhothar | reading C++ standardese is so much fun... |
| 10:48.33 | Thorarin | Or doing whois in the background as well zorba :) |
| 10:50.24 | Imhothar | hah, just found the option in Miranda and it's polling the server |
| 10:50.59 | Imhothar | with interval setting and stuff |
| 10:52.01 | Thorarin | I don't think mIRC has it |
| 10:52.11 | Thorarin | You could probably program it, but I cba :) |
| 10:54.50 | Imhothar | Now I can more effectively focus my spamming efforts on people who aren't afk |
| 10:54.52 | Imhothar | splendid |
| 10:56.34 | seebs | Huh. Someone on the forums claims in passing that Daglar had apparently expressed personal dislike for multiboxing in the past, which would explain the decision to handle things the way he did. |
| 10:57.46 | ZorbaTHut | thorarin, maybe. hard to test from here :) |
| 10:58.59 | Imhothar | making sure your formatted output operator << works the same as the std operators is fun |
| 10:59.29 | Imhothar | ever heard of [string.io], 27.7.3.6.1 or 22.4.2.2.2? |
| 10:59.50 | Imhothar | it's actually 21.4.8.9 |
| 11:00.55 | Imhothar | it's like finding permit A38 |
| 11:01.22 | seebs | <-- used to be on a standards committee. |
| 11:01.24 | Thorarin | wonder which language Imhothar switched to |
| 11:01.35 | Imhothar | Thorarin: Standardese |
| 11:01.54 | seebs | Anyway, gonna go get some sleep. |
| 11:01.57 | Thorarin | English, motherfucker! Do you speak it? :P |
| 11:02.08 | ZorbaTHut | I tried writing a C++ wrapper once. couldn't get past macro expansion |
| 11:02.14 | Imhothar | they say it's the same |
| 11:02.15 | ZorbaTHut | that language has some crazy edge cases |
| 11:02.29 | seebs | I think templates are now their own turing-complete language. |
| 11:02.31 | Imhothar | I just avoid macros in general |
| 11:02.40 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, they have been for a while |
| 11:02.43 | ZorbaTHut | very useful sometimes |
| 11:02.48 | ZorbaTHut | but so nasty |
| 11:02.52 | Imhothar | seebs: yes they are and it was found out by accident |
| 11:03.04 | seebs | Heh. |
| 11:03.04 | ZorbaTHut | I've kinda liked the various approaches that come down to "mark up functions, then run them through a preprocessor" |
| 11:03.13 | ZorbaTHut | the stuff QT does, and the stuff DynASM does |
| 11:03.32 | Imhothar | they weren't designed to be Turing complete, but nobody told the templates |
| 11:04.56 | Imhothar | variadic template made stuff a lot easier |
| 11:05.57 | Imhothar | I like templates, they keep your head spinning |
| 12:11.39 | Thorarin | Yes, templates are turing complete :) |
| 15:44.26 | *** join/#riftuidev purl (~purl@rikers.org) |
| 15:44.26 | *** topic/#riftuidev is http://pastebin.com for code snippets || PIL: http://www.lua.org/pil || Rift AddOn Policy: http://t.co/7xXd4LL || AddOn Wiki: wiki.riftui.com/ || RiftUI.com || rift.curse.com || this channel is logged, via purl || Rift goes F2P, June 12th, http://www.riftgame.com/free |
| 15:47.31 | *** join/#riftuidev LeadGuitar (LeadGuitar@c50-27-122-240.sweecmtk01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net) |
| 19:52.22 | seebs | ... Apparently /follow is enabled in warfronts right now. No official comment. Perhaps the "test" and "temporary implementation" involves toggling it back and forth to see whether people even notice. :) |
| 20:28.22 | Thorarin | Noshei mentioned something like that a day or two ago |
| 20:28.31 | Thorarin | That is was working at the time |
| 20:40.55 | seebs | It seems to come and go, no explanation obvious. |
| 20:41.10 | seebs | Someone just freaked out and chewed me out for organizing lots of people to spam their inbox with hate mail. |
| 20:41.27 | seebs | Which is disturbing, at least in part, because it's a pretty good indication that SOMEONE did this, and that's bothersome. |
| 20:41.55 | seebs | It's also hilarious that someone would think I'd be the one to do it. |
| 21:26.27 | LeadGuitar | It's obviously you and your rift botnet! |
| 21:33.23 | *** join/#riftuidev Noshei (~quassel@c-24-9-171-99.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 21:39.42 | seebs | The funny thing being, I have posted on the Rift forums with a sock account. |
| 21:39.46 | seebs | It's named "seebs obvious sock". |
| 21:50.08 | Noshei | morban scavanger hunt quest sucks! |
| 22:55.50 | Ivnedar | part 1 or 2? |
| 22:56.49 | Ivnedar | I really need to finish part 1 :( |
| 22:58.19 | seebs | Heh. At this point, even if I do come back, I'm probably gonna miss most of summerfest this year. Oh, well. |
| 22:59.46 | seebs | I am finding the ongoing discussions fascinating, especially the fairly large lag from /follow being reenabled to people noticing it. |
| 23:01.07 | Noshei | part 2 Ivnedar |
| 23:36.00 | Ivnedar | ok, haven't looked at that, so I'll be no help :) |