| 00:39.10 | Noshei | Dev's just posted a poll for which original (pre-SL, pre-EI) dungeon would the community like updated to a lvl 60 Expert, look for the "Pool: Dungeon Revamp" post by Vladd |
| 00:39.22 | Noshei | http://forums.riftgame.com/game-discussions/dungeons-raids/379189-poll-dungeon-revamp.html#post4435589 |
| 01:14.24 | seebs | oooh |
| 01:46.06 | Noshei | so seebs daglar just killed pvp multi boxing, thoughts? |
| 01:46.31 | seebs | Huh, so they've made a toggle to let the admins enable or disable /follow in conquests and warfronts. It'll be really interesting to see what comes of that -- Daglar's post seems to frame it very much as an experiment. |
| 01:46.58 | seebs | My thoughts: I think that in terms of impact on the actual outcomes of battles, it'll be make things worse for pugs in general. |
| 01:48.05 | seebs | Because multiboxers are premades, and the game prefers to put premades against premades… Take out the multiboxers, and the number of real premades going up against pugs is likely to increase. |
| 01:48.46 | Noshei | yeah I think they will see a slight increase of queue times for everyone. |
| 01:50.15 | seebs | But it may well be that people *feel* better, since anyone badly-coordinated enough to lose to multiboxers is unlikely to notice whether they're losing to a coordinated pug. |
| 02:02.09 | Imhothar | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Str%C4%8D_prst_skrz_krk |
| 02:02.22 | Imhothar | random thing I had to teach some people about one of my native languages today |
| 02:02.32 | Imhothar | makes for a funny moment when they try to pronounce it |
| 02:19.14 | seebs | So now I realize, I shouldn't have been arguing that Rift's community was a problem. I should have been using sock accounts to post on the forums about how the trolls were wrecking warfronts by automatically winning because being a jerk to other players makes them all die. |
| 04:15.09 | *** join/#riftuidev seebs (~seebs@home.seebs.net) |
| 04:15.09 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+o seebs] by ChanServ |
| 04:53.56 | *** join/#riftuidev lua_bot (~lua_bot@li37-84.members.linode.com) |
| 05:05.35 | seebs | If I do Command.Storage.Clear for an identifier, and then Command.Storage.Set, is that reliable, or do I have to wait for the callback? |
| 05:06.55 | seebs | Hmm. Easier to just do the callback, I think. |
| 05:07.36 | seebs | So Command.Storage.Set('player', identifier, …) => Command.Storage.Clear('player', identifier, function() Command.Storage.Set('player', identifier, …) end) |
| 05:34.00 | Noshei | only 20 more days until FFXIV launch (relaunch, w/e) |
| 05:34.19 | Noshei | it is looking better and better with many of these decisions that trion is making. |
| 05:40.33 | Ivnedar | I'm finding myself wishing that rift would fold so I could walk away more and more :( |
| 05:41.36 | Ivnedar | And I really really hate thinking like that |
| 05:45.14 | Noshei | FFXIV is really looking pretty good, beta phase 4 is expected this weekend, looking forward to that |
| 05:45.28 | Ivnedar | People keep telling me they're leaving for wildstar |
| 05:45.32 | Noshei | and multiboxing looks pretty good in it so far |
| 05:45.35 | Ivnedar | but every time I've looked at it, I didn't get the appeal |
| 05:46.17 | Ivnedar | lol, mentioned that there were 42 new dye recipes in this patch, wife's freaked out and is logging in instead of playing sims 3 |
| 05:46.30 | Ivnedar | She's way too excited about that change :P |
| 05:46.37 | Ivnedar | "42 dyes!!" |
| 05:47.17 | Noshei | wonder if they specifically chose 42! |
| 05:47.44 | Ivnedar | ooh, they fixed the relic whetstones! |
| 05:48.08 | Ivnedar | was kinda sad when we first got them, all excited, put them on in raid and saw they gave almost no AP |
| 05:54.47 | Noshei | omg super cool feature |
| 05:55.13 | Noshei | so in FFXIV when you party up it will change how open world mobs are linked |
| 05:55.52 | Noshei | so say your in a party with 5 people, when you target one normal mob little lines will shoot out of it to other nearby mobs to tell you that it is now linked to those other mobs |
| 05:56.07 | Noshei | so when you pull it it will also pull the other mobs that it just linked to |
| 05:56.28 | Noshei | but if you pulled the same mob when you are solo, you would only pull that one mob |
| 05:56.29 | Ivnedar | that's cool |
| 05:57.25 | Ivnedar | woah @ suggestion on how to fix the connectivity problem |
| 05:57.29 | Ivnedar | using an mtu of 900 ... |
| 05:57.46 | Noshei | mtu? |
| 05:57.56 | Ivnedar | maximum transmission unit |
| 05:58.00 | Ivnedar | maximum packet size effectively |
| 05:58.13 | Ivnedar | normally 1472-1500 |
| 05:58.16 | Ivnedar | depending on your network |
| 05:59.50 | Noshei | I'm kinda thinking I may bual box my through FFXIV |
| 06:28.37 | seebs | I am not gonna try more MMOs for a while yet, I don't think. |
| 06:29.52 | seebs | I'll see what happens with this. I am pretty disappointed with the fact that the change was made, but no rationale was given, so we have no way of knowing whether it was for coherent reasons or just because no one bothered to notice that most of the complaints were outright lies. |
| 06:30.06 | seebs | Not happy seeing several of the most helpful and competent players I know in Rift tossed out because liars tell lies. |
| 06:30.29 | Ivnedar | Yeah, until/unless daglar posts reasons for it, can only guess |
| 06:30.39 | Ivnedar | or assume that the qq'ing 'worked' |
| 06:33.44 | Noshei | seebs: check out the last bit my what I just posted |
| 06:34.11 | seebs | Yeah. That's a good point. I mean, I don't PvP, so no direct effect on how I usually play, but… Man does this undermine my confidence in Trion. |
| 06:34.31 | seebs | Prior to today, I could not have pointed you at a single case where I saw Trion apparently cave to pure QQ without substantive arguments at least on the table somewhere. |
| 06:35.42 | Noshei | when was that seebs? |
| 06:36.01 | seebs | There weren't any. Until just now. |
| 06:36.31 | Noshei | oh, misread that |
| 06:39.32 | Noshei | well I'll have to check back on that thread tomorrow |
| 07:01.10 | Ivnedar | roflmao @ stat pa hexes |
| 07:55.37 | *** join/#riftuidev Kheldar (~Kheldar@217.108.40.234) |
| 10:17.05 | Ivnedar | so the limit on buying rex is 1/day? |
| 10:17.32 | Ivnedar | or is it over a longer period, 10 in a week or something |
| 10:18.35 | Ivnedar | wonder if anyone's worked it out |
| 10:29.54 | Ivnedar | ZorbaTHut: I've got the vanishing rocks happening in eastern holdings, but their shadow is still there when they vanish |
| 10:30.09 | Ivnedar | unlike ashora and cape jule where their shadow vanishes with them |
| 10:30.38 | Ivnedar | though, the shadow is occluded by something, I can move the camera around and some of the shadow goes away and some stays |
| 11:00.12 | Ivnedar | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzTi4dUi734 |
| 11:00.20 | Ivnedar | switched ui on near the start if you wanted coords |
| 11:07.32 | *** join/#riftuidev purl (~purl@rikers.org) |
| 11:07.32 | *** topic/#riftuidev is http://pastebin.com for code snippets || PIL: http://www.lua.org/pil || Rift AddOn Policy: http://t.co/7xXd4LL || AddOn Wiki: wiki.riftui.com/ || RiftUI.com || rift.curse.com || this channel is logged, via purl || Rift goes F2P, June 12th, http://www.riftgame.com/free |
| 15:44.13 | *** join/#riftuidev seebs (~seebs@home.seebs.net) |
| 15:44.13 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+o seebs] by ChanServ |
| 15:49.05 | seebs | what |
| 15:49.09 | seebs | ... |
| 15:49.18 | Ivnedar | hrrm? |
| 15:49.30 | seebs | ZorbaTHut, can you confirm-or-deny the rumors that Scott Hartsman is Trion's CEO now? Because I am not sure I believe random stuff I see on the Internet. |
| 15:50.07 | Ivnedar | still listed as lars buttler |
| 15:50.49 | seebs | Yeah, but things like that often take time to change. There's claims of this, but I don't know that I trust the sources. In fact, I don't trust them. |
| 15:50.54 | Ivnedar | hrrm, though I see the massively post |
| 15:51.46 | Ivnedar | if it was a trion worlds press release, you'd think it'd be on their press releases page |
| 15:52.19 | seebs | Yeah. thus the thought of asking a dev since devs might have heard. And might be authorized to say. |
| 15:52.36 | Ivnedar | trionworlds twitter account and hartsman both saying it's true |
| 15:52.54 | Ivnedar | ok, not trionworlds |
| 15:53.23 | seebs | Well, if he says it, I am inclined to believe it. |
| 15:53.30 | Ivnedar | unless @hartsman is a troll account |
| 15:55.50 | Ivnedar | his linked in profile has been updated to say ceo at trion worlds |
| 15:55.51 | Ivnedar | wow |
| 15:59.35 | seebs | Meanwhile, I am back to considering the possibility that it is time to walk away. |
| 15:59.46 | Ivnedar | Now I don't know |
| 15:59.59 | Ivnedar | Too early to tell for me (assuming it's not a big troll) |
| 16:00.17 | seebs | The multiboxing thread consists basically entirely of mean-spirited gloating from people who refuse to learn to do something easy. |
| 16:00.39 | seebs | If dishonest whiners are a more desired player base than people like Nitro and Beringer, I do not feel super welcome. |
| 16:01.13 | seebs | The Hartsman thing strikes me as good news, and I would be pretty enthused about that. But… Rift's community problems do not appear to be improving. |
| 16:01.22 | seebs | I mean, better than at F2P launch, but... |
| 16:02.59 | seebs | The people calling the shots do not, in general, seem to think that there is any problem with griefing, abuse, and harassment. I mean, they occasionally sort of mention objections to it, but I don't see any kind of cohesive attempt to do something about it, or acknowledgement that a sufficiently dedicated griefer is not an asset to the community. |
| 16:18.57 | Ivnedar | I just had a thought |
| 16:19.16 | Ivnedar | I wonder if the people seeing multiboxers so often are queuing in a group |
| 16:19.19 | Ivnedar | even if it's 2 people |
| 16:19.34 | Ivnedar | they'd be much much more likely to be put against another 'premade' like a boxer |
| 16:19.58 | Ivnedar | so even though they don't see themselves as in a premade, they technically are |
| 16:21.19 | Ivnedar | 'cause I'd see that as one valid problem with the premade system |
| 16:21.38 | Ivnedar | if I want to play with my friend, we're 'penalised' for wanting to play together by being put up against coordinated groups |
| 16:29.38 | Ivnedar | must sleep now, will read more about the return of the hartsman in the morning :) |
| 16:51.30 | seebs | I am pretty sure two-player groups don't count, only 3+ get the premade queue. |
| 16:52.32 | seebs | I dunno. I'm just bummed lately. I have finally sort of accepted that Rift doesn't ever actually have a rule against any particular social behavior. It has only a rule against doing certain things too often. |
| 16:53.00 | seebs | So, say, if you want to harass another player by trolling public channels, harassing people, and insisting that you are their alt, you can do that. Forever. |
| 16:53.35 | seebs | You might occasionally get a suspension, but so what? You can just do the same thing on another account, and then in a week go back to doing it on the first account. You might get another suspension. So what? Wait a week, go right back to doing it. |
| 16:53.44 | seebs | There's no point at which you have done it too much. |
| 17:08.36 | seebs | Yeah, I am gonna take a break, I think. I'll probably log in in a couple of days to get my auctions out of the mail, but I think I am otherwise out for now. I am not okay with this being a game where dishonesty and animosity are winning arguments. |
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| 19:12.40 | seebs | I wanna double-check a thing, but I don't know how. |
| 19:13.16 | seebs | My *intent* is that my addons are flagged such that anyone who wants to fork them or maintain updated versions can do so, but I don't know how or whether such a flag would be visible in the UI on RiftUI. Cairenn? |
| 19:13.48 | seebs | I guess I have the "allow updates and addons" thing set, or at least it looks as though I do, but I am not sure whether that works. |
| 19:14.45 | Cairenn | If you want people to be able to take them over completely, make a note of it in a thread or the description/comments of the project itself. |
| 19:15.39 | Cairenn | If you want people to just be able to apply patches or whatever, turn on that option (allow patches/plugins) |
| 19:16.07 | seebs | What I probably want is to make it clear that forks which start as a complete copy are permitted. I probably want to maintain nominal ownership/maintenance of the originals, but if someone wanted to do a MerisiouxPlus or something that just started with my code, that would be fine. |
| 19:16.23 | seebs | I think my default copyright notice says so. |
| 19:16.35 | seebs | If not, I'll do a round of updates sometime soon to make it clearer. |
| 19:17.02 | Cairenn | Yeah, just post somewhere so there is a notice that can be pointed to saying that it's allowed. |
| 19:17.10 | seebs | Okay. |
| 19:21.16 | Baanano | don't leave seebs :P |
| 19:27.10 | seebs | http://www.riftui.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1618#post1618 <-- just for reference |
| 19:27.32 | seebs | I dunno. I'm really burned out of late. We have this super helpful user who spends hours every day helping newbies on Faeblight. |
| 19:27.53 | seebs | And we have this troll who harasses people and then claims to be that user's alt. |
| 19:28.49 | seebs | And we still have that troll. And nothing changes. I understand the troll may occasionally get short suspensions on one account or another, but there's no such thing as too much, so basically, no matter what, if I log in, that same person will be there, stirring trouble up the same ways. Every day. Without fail. |
| 19:29.42 | seebs | And honestly, if there were a purple name response saying something about the rationale for disabling /follow in WFs/CQ, maybe it'd be convincing and I'd be grudgingly okay with it. |
| 19:30.28 | seebs | But with no rationale on offer… We have a bunch of people who have been systematically and consistently totally dishonest, they've done nothing but lie and insult people and troll it up, and they get exactly what they want, and several of the most competent and helpful players I know get shafted. And the only visible explanation is "lies and animosity are a winning argument now". |
| 19:30.38 | seebs | And that's just too much disregard-for-community for me. |
| 19:30.53 | Cairenn | :( |
| 19:31.29 | seebs | I am totally aware that it probably seems really strange to be upset over the rationale for a decision or lack thereof, but that is how my brain works. |
| 19:31.48 | seebs | I care a lot about whether the reasons for things are good, frequently more than I care about how the things work out. |
| 19:34.52 | seebs | I have a really low tolerance for liars and shitty arguments. I will put up with a lot of things, but I want people to either make sense or admit that they don't. :) |
| 19:35.12 | Cairenn | *nod* |
| 19:36.20 | Baanano | i'd be upset too if the policy on a topic i cared were suddenly changed without reasons :( |
| 19:37.01 | Baanano | but leaving might be excessive |
| 19:37.37 | seebs | Well, there's a handful of things which conspire to make it sort of Unfun To Play right now. The utterly persistent trolls, and the clear awareness among them that they can do or say anything and will never, ever, face more than a temporary suspension, is a problem. |
| 19:37.58 | seebs | I mean. I play on the sole surviving RP server. The reason it's the only one left is that a group of people systematically harassed the RPers off of the previous ones. |
| 19:38.46 | seebs | And we still have people who openly state that they are only on Faeblight because they hate RP and want RPers to be unhappy. And that's allowed, because Rift's community team don't seem to think that active harassment for the sole purpose of driving other players away has any kind of downside for the community. |
| 19:39.49 | seebs | So basically, it's a Vote Of No Confidence. I don't want to invest emotional energy in a game where the people who dogpile anyone who suggests that it might be in some way preferable not to throw slurs around for shock value are considered the target audience. |
| 19:41.00 | seebs | And as long as they're allowed to come back forever, no matter how often they get temporary suspensions, they will eventually win, because people who care about stuff will get burned out and quit, and people who don't care about anything except making other people sad haven't got any emotional engagement to wear out. |
| 19:41.25 | seebs | If playing the game is more likely to produce a negative and stressful experience than a positive one, it's not succeeding as a game. |
| 19:44.02 | Baanano | that has been going for months and while you've always complained about it, you never yielded by leaving |
| 19:44.59 | Baanano | that one isn't the proverbial straw |
| 19:45.37 | Imhothar | that's why I don't care much about "communities" in MMOs because they reflect human nature too much |
| 19:48.29 | seebs | Communities CAN work, but they have to get some kind of maintenance. It's not enough to have boundaries that can get temporary suspensions; there has to be some point at which repeatedly breaking the rules gets you booted. |
| 19:48.51 | seebs | And there have been some improvements, although not always as much as I'd like. But there was some evidence of progress. |
| 19:49.24 | Imhothar | there's a critical mass after whcih communities need to be governed |
| 19:49.26 | seebs | But… At least before this, I could point to the fact that, while this meant that open chat was sort of bad during a lot of hours, outside those hours, even 1-29 chat can be among the better chats I've ever seen in an MMO. |
| 19:49.50 | seebs | Rift's the first game in which I've seen public channels have discussions that get into issues like religion or politics and DON'T turn into trolling or flamewars. |
| 19:50.01 | seebs | But only, of course, after hours. |
| 19:50.10 | Imhothar | then there's the anonymity |
| 19:50.28 | seebs | I don't think anonymity has much impact. Although I think things would be better if we had CoH-style globals. |
| 19:50.31 | seebs | Globals helped SO much. |
| 19:51.12 | seebs | But seriously, if the accounts associated with the guy who plays Madball/Jahwe/Alcapwn on Faeblight got nuked, and either Ibby or the people trolling her got nuked, I think Faeblight would have one of the nicest communities I've ever seen in an MMO. |
| 19:51.31 | seebs | And that might come out to maybe five players, maybe ten accounts total tops. |
| 19:51.58 | seebs | But instead, we lose multiple people every single week because of those players consistently creating firestorms in public chat and harassing the newbies. |
| 19:52.23 | Imhothar | harrassing newbies happens everywhere |
| 19:52.34 | seebs | Yes, but it's not a boolean. |
| 19:53.18 | seebs | There's a world of difference between asking a newbie question and getting five good responses and one joke, and asking a newbie question and getting ten troll answers and the one person who would have given a helpful answer just logged out after being harassed and taunted for half an hour by the local troll population. |
| 19:53.32 | seebs | Both contain some amount of newbie harassment, but only one is really a problem. |
| 19:53.42 | Imhothar | that's human nature |
| 19:54.04 | seebs | Also… The /follow thing is the first time I can point to where a *game* decision reflected this. This is something you can't even mitigate by just /ignoring the griefers. |
| 19:54.32 | Imhothar | most of those people don't behave like that in real life, but the anonymity and lack of consequences just makes them go nuts |
| 19:54.35 | seebs | Up until now, the game design decisions for Rift, while not always the ones I would have preferred, have *always* been things I could at least offer a convincing justification for without reference to whiners or lies. |
| 19:54.51 | seebs | I think it's all lack of consequences, not anonymity. |
| 19:55.09 | seebs | Games where that kind of thing can result in a non-temporary ban tend to have a LOT less of it. |
| 19:55.36 | Imhothar | sure it is, if there was a wall of shame where troll's real names would be posted for everyone to see people would think twice |
| 19:56.17 | seebs | I don't think so. Most of these people are teenage kids. They don't have the frontal cortex development to care about theoretical possible future implications of being named. |
| 19:57.04 | seebs | Now, if you had CoH-style @globals, so that ignoring someone ignored *every* character that account ever created, and you couldn't pretend to be someone else. And if ignoring meant you would NEVER end up grouped with someone by the LFG system. |
| 19:57.46 | seebs | Then that would be effective. Trolls would find their LFG queue times getting exceedingly long, and couldn't avoid it just by alt-hopping. |
| 19:58.11 | Baanano | is that related to frontal cortex development? I wish i could remove from google any trace of what i did 10 years ago :P |
| 19:58.14 | seebs | Pseudonymity is enough to create social context/consequences. |
| 19:58.32 | seebs | In general, the sort of long-term planning/impulse control parts of the brain don't fully develop until mid-to-late 20s. |
| 21:25.46 | *** join/#riftuidev Cairenn (~Owner@MMOI/Administratrix/Cairenn) |
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| 22:23.01 | *** join/#riftuidev Noshei (~quassel@c-24-9-171-99.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 22:45.49 | Noshei | so hartsmans back at trion |
| 22:54.01 | seebs | Yup. As CEO, now. Very interesting. Undermines claims that he left because he wasn't willing to deal with a F2P game. |
| 23:01.30 | Imhothar | who? |
| 23:11.22 | seebs | Scott Hartsman. |
| 23:11.35 | seebs | The guy who was the lead dev for Rift, and who picked Daglar to be the lead dev. |
| 23:12.09 | seebs | I think someone once told me that, way back when, Daglar was just some random content designer guy, but he had a lot of ideas, so Hartsman sorta gave him room to run with them and groomed him to become the lead dev. |