| 00:53.42 | Imhothar | hm second day I'm directed to the Trion login page on forums |
| 00:53.50 | Imhothar | that usually only happens once a few weeks |
| 01:41.56 | seebs | Yeah, hit me too. |
| 02:40.44 | seebs | oooh |
| 02:40.45 | seebs | * Soul abilities that have ranks will now be automagically upgraded when you level up, removing the need to return to a trainer and purchase new ranks. Existing abilities will be raised to your level-appropriate rank on login, and when they are unlocked in the Soul Tree. |
| 02:41.04 | seebs | CoH had that one right. No ranks, things just scaled with level. |
| 02:49.33 | Imhothar | they all think it's a good thing you neet to visit your trainer all the time unless they remove it years later |
| 05:29.36 | *** join/#riftuidev Fisker (~ballmer@2a01:4f8:d12:1104:d1e:d1e:d1e:d1e) |
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| 07:32.07 | Thorarin | Trololol, trainers in TB no longer have "Reset my souls" option |
| 08:21.26 | NuSuey | oh hell.. they removed the training ranks ? woo |
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| 16:06.12 | Wildtide | good afternoon folks |
| 16:14.44 | seebs | Hello. |
| 16:15.12 | seebs | Huh. I wonder whether ranks still exist internally, or whether it's really scaling now. Can't immediately think of a good way to test. |
| 16:32.07 | Baanano | maybe you could mentor down progressively to see how the ability evolves and if there is any sudden leap |
| 16:38.58 | *** join/#riftuidev g0urra (~g0urra@unaffiliated/gourra) |
| 17:59.03 | seebs | I believe mentoring uses a different kind of scaling, so it always uses the top rank, then scales by level, rather than using lower ranks. I think. |
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| 19:15.45 | *** join/#riftuidev odine (odine@cpe-74-77-168-188.buffalo.res.rr.com) |
| 19:16.08 | odine | is it me, or is there an awful lot of extra need or using tonumber() and tostring() ? |
| 19:16.19 | odine | *for using |
| 19:16.37 | seebs | There can be. What context are you talking about? |
| 19:17.01 | seebs | If you're used to something like PHP, perl, or awk, Lua's lack of automatic conversions can be a bit of a shock at first. |
| 19:17.13 | odine | not near my stuff lol.. i was just QQ'ing... your response of saying "there can be" pretty much answers my QQ thought ;) |
| 19:17.35 | seebs | Lua's philosophy is very different from that of the php/perl side of the scripting world. |
| 19:17.51 | odine | well im actually used to wow addon api, and i just dont remember needing to use those as often is all |
| 19:17.57 | seebs | I actually think it has just about the right amount of explicit tonumber/tostring happening, which is to say, I have to do them when they're relevant. |
| 19:17.58 | seebs | Hmm. |
| 19:18.13 | seebs | I'm biased; I hated that API with a fiery passion, and this is one of my favorite ever. :) |
| 19:18.28 | seebs | One thing: I almost never use tostring on numbers, because I am nearly always using string.format() or a wrapper around it. |
| 19:18.30 | odine | its just habits i gotta break now is all... im really starting to like the rift API not that im adjusting to it |
| 19:18.36 | seebs | string.format("%d", n) |
| 19:19.01 | odine | i just miss the quality of life stuff still (which i know will come eventually) SetTexCoords, better texture blending options without having to make 9 frames, etc etc ;) |
| 19:19.27 | odine | but ya that is my plan right on the dot.. switching to string.format more |
| 19:20.19 | odine | gonna be seeing alot me now, totally retried from wow, and on rift api dev full time now.. actually deep into working on a Guild Calendar addon atm |
| 19:20.28 | seebs | Cool! |
| 19:20.39 | seebs | Have close looks at the storage and message APIs, they are pretty awesome. |
| 19:20.47 | odine | yup thats what ill be using |
| 19:21.10 | seebs | My experience, having been doing Rift UI dev of various sorts for a year or so now, is that this API is overall MUCH nicer. It's not as complete in some places, but what there is works beautifully. |
| 19:21.26 | odine | indeed. |
| 19:21.31 | seebs | The philosophical difference is well summarized by the fact that Inspect.Item.Detail() can access your bank contents whether or not you are at the bank. |
| 19:21.53 | odine | i actually wasnt aware of that yet |
| 19:21.56 | odine | thats good to know |
| 19:22.01 | seebs | Well, that, and the months of prior notice we get on breaking changes. |
| 19:22.11 | odine | ya you cant beat that |
| 19:22.26 | odine | trion in general is an amazing company |
| 19:22.29 | odine | they actually care about us |
| 19:22.29 | seebs | It's a philosophical thing. It is obvious that we can easily track bank contents, and they can't change when we aren't there, so why make us do the extra work? |
| 19:22.30 | seebs | Yes. |
| 19:22.50 | seebs | I left WoW in a huff over the Real ID crap, and nothing that's happened since has made me regret it. |
| 19:24.20 | odine | im still kinda new to lua programming... not a very very skilled programmer in any language i should say... but im learning... so if i jump in here ever and ask something really stupid (or even on the forums) thats why =P |
| 19:28.44 | Imhothar | Lua does perform automatic string/number conversion. It's just the Rift API doesn't accept a string where it expects a number, even if the string contains a valid number string |
| 19:28.44 | Imhothar | lua> 1 + "5" |
| 19:28.44 | lua_bot | Imhothar: 6 |
| 19:28.45 | Imhothar | lua> "3.5" * 2 |
| 19:28.45 | lua_bot | Imhothar: 7 |
| 19:28.45 | odine | right, but if i use string.format more so i should probably run into less issues no? |
| 19:28.45 | Imhothar | and vice versa, that's where you need tostring/tonumber |
| 19:28.45 | Imhothar | nope |
| 19:28.45 | odine | hm, ok |
| 19:28.45 | Imhothar | concatening works the same |
| 19:28.45 | Imhothar | lua> "value is " .. 5 |
| 19:28.45 | lua_bot | Imhothar: value is 5 |
| 19:28.45 | odine | well i understand what ur saying and i appreciate the heads up should help me greatly |
| 19:28.45 | Imhothar | lua> 5 == "5" |
| 19:28.45 | lua_bot | Imhothar: false |
| 19:28.45 | Imhothar | that's the only thing to be aware of |
| 19:28.46 | odine | k |
| 19:28.47 | Imhothar | == first checks for type, then for value (unless there is metatable with __eq) |
| 19:29.09 | odine | on another side note imho... u manage a bag addon.. do u know if there is a way to check if an item is upgradeable yet? or does a member need to be added to Inspect.Item.Detail? |
| 19:31.28 | Imhothar | upgradeable? |
| 19:31.39 | Imhothar | I haven't played much SL yet, is that somehting new? |
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| 19:34.30 | odine | yup |
| 19:34.38 | odine | certain items are upgradeable |
| 19:34.39 | Imhothar | then I don't know |
| 19:35.05 | odine | pretty sure zorba just needs to add a new member, i didnt see any other sort of cheats to work around it for now |
| 19:35.25 | odine | also bigger bag slots (max is 32 now) |
| 19:35.32 | seebs | Woah. |
| 19:35.38 | odine | ? |
| 19:35.39 | seebs | I had not realized that the automatic conversion existed. |
| 19:35.47 | seebs | I think I must have mostly been working in the rare cases where it doesn't. |
| 19:35.50 | seebs | e.g., table lookups. |
| 19:36.09 | Imhothar | aye, table keys aren't converted |
| 19:36.27 | seebs | And I vaguely thought %d/%s didn't autoconvert, but I might be mistaken. |
| 19:37.23 | Imhothar | they do |
| 19:37.41 | Imhothar | %s calls either tostring() or the __tostring metamethod |
| 19:37.49 | odine | @imho: anyways ya... iventory icons will show a lil arrow to show its upgradeable (nothing u can do cuz the check isnt in the ai yet i dont think), but u may wanna update to allow for 32 slot bags in ur addon (just giving u heads up since u havent played sl much) |
| 19:38.27 | odine | anyways back to work on the guild calendar addon |
| 19:38.40 | odine | thansk for the info everyone! ill be idling here |
| 19:39.08 | Imhothar | No need to update for bag sizes |
| 19:39.21 | Rhakka | I definitely do not want to start a "discussion" on the subject, but does anybody have a strong recommendation for a Lua editor for Windows? |
| 19:40.31 | seebs | msys => vim |
| 19:40.34 | odine | notepad++ |
| 19:40.55 | Imhothar | notepad++ |
| 19:40.56 | odine | imho: wasnt sure if there was need. kk |
| 19:41.10 | odine | but ya notepad++ i swear by for any kind of coding in the windows enviroment |
| 19:41.20 | seebs | I don't think I've ever even used notepad++ |
| 19:41.28 | Imhothar | until Visual Studio gets a proper working Lua addin |
| 19:41.31 | seebs | I don't really "get" most GUI editors. |
| 19:41.57 | Imhothar | seebs even "GUI editors" have tons of shortcuts |
| 19:42.21 | seebs | I have mostly not used them, although I am now somewhat in the habit of using TextMate for editing sometimes. |
| 19:42.33 | seebs | Mostly, though, I'm more comfortable with vi-family editors, although I prefer nvi to vim. |
| 19:46.29 | Torhal|work | IntelliJ with sylvanaar's Lua plugin is rather nice. |
| 19:54.07 | odine | ^ another gui editor? |
| 20:03.52 | Torhal|work | Yar. |
| 20:16.30 | Rhakka | I tried gvim, but the keybindings by default were wonky. I'm used to both vim and textmate. |
| 20:16.52 | Rhakka | Everything else seems foreign, so figured if I'm going to use something different on windows, I should get some suggestions of what other people here use. ;) |
| 20:17.11 | Rhakka | or if suggestions for vim were strong enough, I'd just deal with setting up vim properly on windows. |
| 20:17.22 | Rhakka | thanks for the suggestions. I had forgotten about notepad++ but I've used it before. |
| 22:03.26 | ZorbaTHut | rhakka, I use scite, personally, but I know I'm in the minority here |
| 22:04.18 | ZorbaTHut | seebs, "I wonder whether ranks still exist internally, or whether it's really scaling now. Can't immediately think of a good way to test." - check the ability ID of the ability as it levels up. different ranks are actually entirely different abilities |
| 22:04.30 | seebs | Madness. |
| 22:04.34 | ZorbaTHut | (I'm pretty sure ranks do still exist internally - I think we took the easiest solution - but I could be wrong on that) |
| 22:04.37 | seebs | So *why* do ranks exist? |
| 22:04.42 | seebs | I never got this. |
| 22:05.00 | ZorbaTHut | In Rift, in other MMOs that aren't WoW, or in WoW? |
| 22:05.04 | Imhothar | sometimes scaling is not linear |
| 22:05.08 | seebs | Well, Rift specifically. |
| 22:05.14 | ZorbaTHut | Because they were in WoW. |
| 22:05.19 | seebs | It seems like if you know what curve you want, you should be able to just specify the curve. |
| 22:05.31 | seebs | And of course, by the time Rift launched, WoW had taken them out. :) |
| 22:06.04 | seebs | I never did quite understand their original reason for existing. Some people argued that it was a money sink. |
| 22:06.07 | ZorbaTHut | A lot of early Rift design was "well, those blizzard guys know what they're doing, we'll just follow their lead except in situations where we want to be different". We've been pulling away from that as Rift evolves down its own path, of course |
| 22:06.18 | Imhothar | maybe you don't have a curve but merely sample points which were used for balancing |
| 22:06.19 | seebs | I do recall that, when I first suggested Rift drop ranks, a bunch of people jumped on me for wanting "easy mode". |
| 22:06.30 | ZorbaTHut | As for their original reason for existing in WoW, that's easy to answer |
| 22:06.33 | ZorbaTHut | it's because Everquest had them |
| 22:06.36 | seebs | hah |
| 22:06.49 | odine | lulz |
| 22:06.49 | seebs | Yeah. Early Rift felt like a game that contained, but wasn't really, a WoW clone. |
| 22:06.57 | seebs | It's been developing further and further away from that. |
| 22:07.00 | ZorbaTHut | I'm not entirely sure why Everquest had them, though - I'd be willing to bet you could find an earlier game that had them, maybe even delving into the RPG world |
| 22:07.16 | seebs | I did a guide thread once on "how to play WoW in Rift", where I listed common and popular pre-cata specs, and how to get a similar feel in Rift. |
| 22:07.34 | seebs | Well, by the time you get as far back as EQ, I could easily imagine that scaling hadn't even been considered. |
| 22:07.43 | seebs | CoH had it when it launched, slightly before WoW launched, though. |
| 22:08.25 | ZorbaTHut | looking at an EQ page, it looks like Everquest spell ranks required quests in order to unlock |
| 22:08.32 | ZorbaTHut | but that might just be an expansion thing, I don't know if they always had ranks |
| 22:08.58 | ZorbaTHut | CoH was groundbreaking in a lot of ways. Cryptic's designers are frustrating |
| 22:09.02 | seebs | I sometimes sorta miss stuff like quests to unlock things, but they create all sorts of problems if people play alts, anda s the game gets huge. |
| 22:09.25 | ZorbaTHut | they have a ton of amazing ideas and a ton of really awful ideas, and don't seem to be able to distinguish between the two. I honestly think Cryptic has been great for the gaming industry, it's just that Cryptic themselves didn't see much of that. |
| 22:09.49 | seebs | Yeah. |
| 22:10.04 | seebs | There was a Korean news article on Mercedes Lackey fussing about CoH being shut down. |
| 22:10.22 | odine | zorba, question... im sure u seen lots of requests for things like :SetTexCoords, SetBackdrop(to set bgfile, edgefiles, tile, insets etc), Vertex related stuff... and last but not least some way to hide Native friends.. any idea how high up the todo list those are? |
| 22:10.24 | seebs | Apparently it was bringing in ~$2.5M/quarter, and the company has been totally unable to offer any explanation of what was wrong with that. |
| 22:10.32 | Imhothar | I don't like games much where you get everything baiscally for free. It's annoying to run to your trainer every level to train up/learn an ability, but the old 60 quests for the dread steed or the priest staff were kinda cool |
| 22:10.42 | odine | *native frames... heh not friends |
| 22:11.11 | ZorbaTHut | odine, actually, :SetTexCoords and the like are really high up now, I just need to find time to do 'em |
| 22:11.33 | seebs | Yeah. I really liked those quest chains. I see the down side of having content that by definition only 1/10 or so of players actually do, but they were conceptually neat. |
| 22:11.51 | odine | @zorba: u have no idea how happy that made me lol |
| 22:11.58 | seebs | I sorta think Rift ought to have one quest per soul that unlocks SOMETHING cool, and also gives story background or something. |
| 22:12.09 | ZorbaTHut | seebs, it used to have the actual soul quests, but of course those are long gone |
| 22:12.11 | Imhothar | I didn't know a warlock ho didn't do the dread steed quest as long as they were in the game |
| 22:12.31 | seebs | The actual soul quests were all identical, though. It was one quest 32 times, not 32 quests. |
| 22:12.31 | Imhothar | why were they removed? |
| 22:12.44 | Imhothar | besides them being totally identical they were at least *something* |
| 22:12.59 | seebs | Well, yes, every warlock did them, but only ~1/10 of people were warlocks. |
| 22:13.00 | ZorbaTHut | imhothar, Rift is cool because you have a crazy amount of flexibility in your souls. We realized it was a bad idea to make people play for hours to finally reach the point where Rift is cool. |
| 22:13.27 | ZorbaTHut | Ideally we'd like people to sit down and five seconds later say "WHOA THIS GAME IS COOL" and the soul quests were just not accomplishing that. :) |
| 22:13.29 | seebs | Yeah. The shift to "you just have all 8 souls" (9 now, I guess) was... I mean, I thought it was taking something away, but then I played through the newbie areas and I loved it. |
| 22:14.28 | Imhothar | It's difficult these days to find a mmorpg and say "whoa this game is cool" because they are all so damn similar |
| 22:14.45 | ZorbaTHut | odine, I'm hoping to have them for 2.2. That said, note that I was hoping to have them for 2.1, and vaguely considering getting them in 2.0. So, uh, things are busy right now, don't be surprised if it gets pushed back further, unfortunately. |
| 22:15.00 | odine | totally understandably |
| 22:15.03 | ZorbaTHut | imhothar, agreed, but our soul system is one of the big things that sets us apart. Definitely something we want in the player's face ASAP. |
| 22:15.04 | odine | i would never hold u to it ;) |
| 22:15.25 | odine | one more thing since i have ur attention.. the tooltip being stuck at the top (and a bit more functionality) where is that on the list? (last question i promise LMAO) |
| 22:15.37 | Imhothar | some say it's unique, some say it too many choices. oh well can't please everyone |
| 22:16.01 | ZorbaTHut | Well, that's why the prebuilt souls exist :) (and why we're calling more attention to them now) |
| 22:16.11 | ZorbaTHut | odine, it is, but I don't even know where it is on the list at this point |
| 22:16.25 | Imhothar | his list has 500 items on it by the way |
| 22:16.38 | odine | i know its a huge list |
| 22:16.44 | ZorbaTHut | I wish that was hyperbole. :( |
| 22:16.57 | ZorbaTHut | and some of those items are, like, "chat API" |
| 22:17.12 | Imhothar | oh so you got duplicates on it |
| 22:17.14 | ZorbaTHut | which is obviously a bit more effort than "add mentor flag to unit details" |
| 22:17.24 | odine | indeed |
| 22:17.51 | seebs | By intent, would we be able to see both real and mentored levels? |
| 22:18.01 | ZorbaTHut | seebs, the current UI doesn't let you see real levels, does it? |
| 22:18.10 | Imhothar | still couldn't get that guy as your minion who wrote the first widgets? |
| 22:18.12 | seebs | I have no idea. I am pretty sure I can see my own. |
| 22:18.37 | ZorbaTHut | well, I don't think it does - I couldn't see an easy way how - so at least for now, the mentor flag won't either |
| 22:18.55 | ZorbaTHut | imhothar, nope :/ besides the guy who helped out with dimensions, it's kinda a half-man show right now |
| 22:19.28 | Imhothar | oh, don't joke on small people |
| 22:19.39 | Imhothar | :) |
| 22:20.02 | ZorbaTHut | if it was one full small person instead of half of a person, things would be going faster ;) |
| 22:20.19 | Imhothar | what else is he doing? |
| 22:20.31 | ZorbaTHut | I've accidentally become the lead rendering engineer as well |
| 22:20.37 | Imhothar | damn |
| 22:20.40 | seebs | I've had days like that. |
| 22:22.11 | ZorbaTHut | it's worth pointing out that I know very little about rendering |
| 22:22.33 | seebs | I am a tad worried about not seeing a job listing for it. |
| 22:23.07 | ZorbaTHut | last I heard we actually had a guy we wanted to hire, but he couldn't start for a month. I'm not sure if we've officially decided to go with him or not |
| 22:26.00 | seebs | That would explain it, if you had someone picked. |
| 22:30.00 | seebs | *grumble* |
| 22:30.19 | odine | someoone wanna shoot an opinion my way? http://ebguild.com/event.jpg -- go with different textures for the "day frames" ? or it look ok like that? |
| 22:30.48 | seebs | So I have a Mac, with an SSD. And I have a new Mac. The new Mac wants to run 10.8. The existing Mac is running 10.7. An upgrade to 10.8 exists, but costs money. The new Mac may not run 10.7. |
| 22:30.50 | Rhakka | I know this is late, but... the reason for having ability ranks is purely for player gratification. "Ooh, I got something new!" whether it's from leveling or questing or an item, tome, w/e |
| 22:31.10 | seebs | So far as I can tell, my only real option involves wiping out and restoring from backups, or getting another SSD the same size or larger to use in the new machine. |
| 23:00.27 | Torhal | seebs: I believe with the new iMacs (not sure if that's which you're referring to) you have to get a factory SSD or none at all because apparently they use proprietary connectors now. |
| 23:02.17 | seebs | Not at issue. I can put the drive in this machine just fine. |
| 23:02.27 | seebs | I just don't have any way to upgrade its copy of the OS to a current one. |
| 23:05.04 | Torhal | Mountain Lion is $25, and if you got a new Mac why wasn't it already installed? |
| 23:07.44 | seebs | It was installed. On the media in the machine. Which is not my SSD. |
| 23:07.56 | seebs | I do not want to pay $20 for something I already own. I want to use my SSD in this machine. |
| 23:10.32 | Torhal | seebs: Try holding Option-R while booting; that will begin the 10.8 install process. |
| 23:10.40 | seebs | Right. |
| 23:10.41 | Torhal | Via Internet, mind you. |
| 23:11.07 | seebs | And if I wanted to *reload all my data*, that would be super handy. Except that I tried it on a spare drive, and it installed 10.7 instead. And then couldn't boot. |
| 23:11.12 | Torhal | Once you log into the Apple Store I'd think it would associate your account with 10.8 |
| 23:11.28 | seebs | Nope. I have two machines which have 10.8, and I don't count as owning 10.8 because they were not upgrades. |
| 23:11.29 | Torhal | The Internet Install tried 10.7? WTF? |
| 23:11.33 | seebs | That is what I said. |
| 23:11.38 | Torhal | Ugh. |
| 23:11.39 | seebs | And maybe the install screwed it up somehow. |
| 23:11.53 | seebs | Well, it wasn't the internet install, it was the one that's built into the machine, which has a 10.8.2 recovery partition. |
| 23:12.11 | seebs | But... The drive I used was a drive from a previous machine that I didn't care about. And maybe it needed the drive erased before it could install to it. |
| 23:12.21 | Torhal | Ah, ok; the Internet Install works even if you have a completely fresh drive (no backup partition) |
| 23:12.23 | seebs | But that's sort of the thing -- what I *want* to do is "not have to erase the drive completely". |
| 23:12.39 | Torhal | Gotcha. |
| 23:13.25 | seebs | I mean, yes, I can make backups. I can make lots of backups. But boy, do I not want to have to rely on them... |
| 23:13.52 | seebs | Annoyingly, I'd just gotten sick of having apps from 2006 and earlier on my machine, and done the Fresh Install. Like two months ago. |
| 23:14.05 | seebs | So I really, really, don't want to have to do that whole dance again... |
| 23:15.01 | Torhal | :/ |
| 23:15.03 | seebs | But so far as I can tell, the only way to do an upgrade is to have the upgrade-happy version of the installer, and you can only have that if you have bought 10.8 as a separate upgrade. |
