| 00:04.27 | Noshei | hey ZorbaTHut would it be possible to get something like Command.System.Watchdog.Quiet() that allows us to modify/create frames at the begining of combat. |
| 00:05.14 | Noshei | like a 1-2 second window that would allow us to say make a frame interactable, where it wasn't before combat |
| 00:06.52 | ZorbaTHut | that's basically the combat entry event |
| 00:08.33 | Noshei | oh so when that event fires we have a last chance to make changes? |
| 00:10.40 | Noshei | just trying to come up with a way to eliminate the need to have an interactable frame (like for focus target) that is in the way even when I'm out of combat and dont have a focus, but that I can then change to be interactable when combat starts |
| 00:21.29 | ZorbaTHut | yep, that event is the last chance to change stuff |
| 00:22.52 | Noshei | so there really isnt a reason to have the interactable frames that aren't being used (when out of combat) |
| 00:25.07 | ZorbaTHut | assuming you don't want that functionality available out of combat, correct |
| 00:25.55 | Noshei | my thought is to eliminate the need to have the "black" space where a frame is, when that frame isn't being used |
| 00:26.30 | Noshei | so when I target someone it would make the frame interactable, or when i go into combat |
| 00:42.34 | seebs | So I'm getting a fair bit of weird flickering and other behavior. And I'm trying to figure out whether that's video card/drivers, or changes in 1.11. |
| 00:42.52 | seebs | Seems to relate to shadows and large objects. |
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| 03:08.12 | seebs | Whee, one of the newbie quests got broken interestingly. |
| 03:08.27 | seebs | There's a starter-zone quest in Silverwood where you're supposed to destroy vespid hives. |
| 03:08.41 | seebs | The vespid hives now have permanent out-of-combat regeneration even when you're attacking them, making it a LOT harder. |
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| 04:37.23 | seebs | Man. I really want a test server. Like, a test server where I can do things like arbitrarily grant a character XP, or remove XP, so I can do stuff like test out "how does this plan work at level 17". |
| 04:38.21 | jmerlin | Why don't you get GM powah on PTS? |
| 04:42.42 | seebs | I should just have GM powers in general. |
| 04:42.48 | seebs | There is no possible downside. |
| 04:44.47 | jmerlin | And when SL launches, seebs suddenly has every world first. |
| 04:51.09 | seebs | Hah. |
| 04:51.36 | seebs | In practice, when I've had GM powers on muds and such, I've mostly used them only for pranks. |
| 04:52.18 | seebs | Was on a mud where GMs could global-echo arbitrary text. I spent hours working out macros so that I could produce text which exactly duplicated the formatting and (very elaborate) color-coding of real game messages. |
| 04:52.43 | seebs | Then everyone on the game got a combat message saying they'd taken 9,999,999 damage from one of the first lowbie creatures you would encounter while playing. |
| 04:53.02 | seebs | Complete with the scary coloring that the game used for really huge amounts of damage. |
| 05:10.46 | seebs | Cleric melee has changed a LOT since I looked. I guess I knew that. |
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| 05:27.50 | seebs | Wow. Druid has been SEVERELY overhauled. Some of this is pretty awesome. |
| 05:28.14 | seebs | The mana regen power is no longer on any sort of cooldown. It's just that it's a channel. So it's not real useful in melee, but out of melee? Free mana! |
| 05:28.42 | seebs | Sorta worried about my pet's fairly tiny amount of health, we'll see how that works out. |
| 05:53.06 | jmerlin | seebs: Shaman is cool, and highest DS |
| 05:53.07 | jmerlin | DPS* |
| 05:54.10 | jmerlin | The only issue is that the DPS is extremely cooldown priority dependent and you have to have your DoTs doing the right things and the right debuffs up, which means a disconnect will mean a pretty significant DPS drop. |
| 05:54.30 | jmerlin | Versus our previous melee builds which had maybe 1 or 2 partially significant DoTs but were dominated by RNG instead of uptime |
| 05:57.00 | jmerlin | I don't think the reasoning of "melee dps should be higher" is valid so that the justification of a steep drop in DPS when contact is loss is valid, this drop would be so significant that losing 4 gcds of uptime would likely, in a 4 minute fight, mean a 5-10% dps loss, and that's just 4 GCDs, fights which have disconnects typically lose 2-3 GCDs per disconnect, which means shaman would need to do an absurd amount of damage to make validate disconnects |
| 05:57.32 | jmerlin | Instead, they could do something like if you suddenly are out of melee range by M meters, all of your stuff refreshes and hits 20% harder to mitigate the disconnect |
| 05:57.45 | jmerlin | So boss leaps 15m away, bam, your dps isn't affected too much |
| 05:58.11 | jmerlin | The way they have it set up, the difference won't matter on fights with melee disconnects, as ranged will be preferable. |
| 06:03.11 | jmerlin | So IIRC, Ituz after 1.11 (minmaxing hasn't settled yet, and people don't have rotations perfect yet), Warriors were doing 8.5k (9k is doable), mages doing 6.7k (7k is probably doable), rogues were doing 6300-6500. Clerics were around 5600-6000, and Inquisitor was back at mid 4ks. |
| 06:03.21 | jmerlin | The huge spread we saw on beta weeks ago made it into live, shocker. |
| 06:14.13 | Noshei | jmerlin: are you even an addon author? |
| 06:16.19 | jmerlin | Noshei: I've edited addons, why do you ask? |
| 06:29.10 | seebs | I often hang out in UI developer channels for games I don't actually maintain addons for, just because it's an easy way to find people who play the game and know which end of the keyboard is up. :) |
| 06:34.20 | jmerlin | I might be more active in building/editing addons if one of several things were different. The choice of interface (between me and an addon) is unfortunate and while understandable (industry "standard", ease of interfacing with C/C++ code), isn't ideal, IMO, and so it's a deviation which for me will never bear useful fruit. |
| 06:35.01 | jmerlin | The second is that the end result and useful capabilities of addons (in any MMO, really) are limited to applicable usefulness: there are really only 2 addons I care for, a DPS meter and a raid timer, as I'm a raider. |
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| 06:35.40 | seebs | I actually really *like* Lua for this kind of work. I've been using Lua by preference for some tasks for a while now. |
| 06:35.54 | seebs | Language is tiny and easy to remember. |
| 06:36.19 | jmerlin | Those have been written quite nicely by members of the community already, and so to me, it's like beating a dead horse, so unless I can improve something (which is what I did, in editing a raid timer, until it was improved beyond my additions), I won't bother. |
| 06:37.14 | jmerlin | seebs: I don't have anything against Lua, it's just that the only place I've ever seen Lua used widely is in game addons, basically. |
| 06:37.54 | jmerlin | In that sense it's a DSL, and DSLs are fine for their domains, but if I wanted to make a 2D game, I'd do it in Canvas or OpenGL so anyone can enjoy it and I can play it on any device. |
| 06:38.08 | jmerlin | (not to knock people making in-game games with addons, go go) |
| 06:38.22 | seebs | It's very heavily used as a game-logic language. |
| 06:38.51 | seebs | There was a WH40K RTS that used it, most of the Infinity Engine games used it, I think NWN did. I've also seen it in other stuff like 3D renderers. |
| 06:39.09 | seebs | It's a really good fit for the common problem of "I want to expose functionality with low developer cost and permissive licensing". :) |
| 06:39.18 | jmerlin | I've seen a split between that and actual custom languages like UnrealScript |
| 06:39.20 | seebs | My iOS/Android app is in Lua because I found an SDK that let me do what I wanted in it. |
| 06:39.49 | seebs | Yeah. The thing is, if learning each of ten languages lets me manipulate a single game, and another language lets me manipulate 20 games... :) |
| 06:40.27 | seebs | So I got used to it and now I use it a fair bit. It's not my favorite language ever, but it's in the top five easily. |
| 06:40.42 | seebs | I like Ruby and C a little better. |
| 06:42.25 | jmerlin | I like JS and C, and I want to get into Haskell, but I'm so busy learning constantly that it's on that big list of "things I really want to learn" that seems to always grow and never shrink. |
| 06:42.31 | seebs | Yeah. |
| 06:43.11 | seebs | I browsed Haskell a bit, didn't feel like it was quite all there as a production language -- too much in flux. I didn't feel like I could trust code in it to stay functional (pun not originally intended but I'm rolling with it.) |
| 06:44.36 | seebs | Right, I'm gonna sit around being miserable from lung crud and smacking whatever's between me and ore for a while. |
| 06:44.56 | jmerlin | Well Haskell and Clojure, I like functional programming but LISPs seem too low-level and parenful to me. Even if just as toy languages for playing. |
| 06:45.45 | jmerlin | Clojure has that allure of having full access to the java VM and API, but without the cruft of Java |
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| 08:37.38 | Noshei | morning Wildtide |
| 08:37.54 | Wildtide | mornin' |
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| 09:37.53 | Wildtide | Noshei: don't know if you've seen, but I added a bit of a dodgy hack to let people override the texture on health and mana bars. as long as the elements in your templates are called "barHealth" and "barResource", it should just work |
| 09:38.52 | Noshei | I think most of mine stuck with that |
| 09:46.46 | Noshei | yeah looking at them i did stick with barHealth and barResource |
| 10:01.36 | Wildtide | yep, luckily most people have gone with copy n' paste :) |
| 10:02.18 | Wildtide | i was going to add a semantic="health" type of option, so that you can tell gadgets what an element represents, but decided not to bother |
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| 10:55.33 | Noshei_ | so Wildtide I was thinking about how we could eliminate the need to have a frame taking space when it isn't being used |
| 10:55.48 | Noshei_ | specifically for unit frames |
| 10:56.11 | Wildtide | that's the feature i keep hassling ZorbaTHut for :) |
| 10:56.21 | Noshei_ | well we kinda can now |
| 10:56.25 | Wildtide | oh? |
| 10:56.28 | Noshei_ | just takes a bit of work on our end |
| 10:57.03 | Noshei_ | so when a frame isn't being used and out of combat it wouldn't capture the mouse at all |
| 10:57.33 | Noshei_ | so that's the default setting, when it becomes active ( i.e. you have a target) then it does |
| 10:57.39 | Noshei_ | or when you enter combat it does |
| 10:58.07 | Wildtide | the problem there is that they start to block the screen when you're in combat, which is when it's most important |
| 10:58.27 | Noshei_ | yeah, but at least out of combat it wont |
| 10:58.31 | Wildtide | true |
| 10:58.33 | Noshei_ | unlike how it is now |
| 10:59.32 | Wildtide | i've stated a few times that i'm not intending putting any hacks for that in, as it needs API support to do it properly. maybe i should think about putting some in, but i am reluctant to do it |
| 10:59.41 | Noshei_ | talking wiht ZorbaTHut earlier it seems that once Event.Unit.Detail.Combat fires we have a bit of time to make last minute changes |
| 11:00.15 | Wildtide | i've thought about it before. there's an event that says we're going into secure mode, and coming out of it |
| 11:00.25 | Wildtide | where you can make those sort of adjustments |
| 11:00.35 | Wildtide | it's possible, i've just not wanted to do it |
| 11:01.25 | Noshei_ | I think it might be worth doing at this point, not sure when the API will give us better support for it |
| 11:01.50 | Wildtide | yes... i've wanted consistent functionality that "just works", which is why i don't offer sorting to put tanks at the top, etc |
| 11:02.17 | Wildtide | but if it really is a long way off, maybe it's time to think about improving things as best we can |
| 11:02.21 | Noshei_ | just something I was thinking about recently, I'll probably do it myself here soon anyways tbh |
| 11:03.28 | Wildtide | yes. it's not difficult to do, but i have genuinely not wanted to do it. it makes it inconsistent between in-combat and out-of-combat |
| 11:05.15 | Noshei_ | thinking about adding an option to make a pet frame that is only interactable when in a spec that includes a pet as well |
| 11:05.50 | Wildtide | that could work. i guess you'd have to tell it which roles have pets, until we can detect souls? |
| 11:06.10 | Noshei_ | just do a quick check of abilities |
| 11:06.18 | Wildtide | oh yeah, good point |
| 11:07.07 | Wildtide | though that is the other thing i try to avoid - hard-coded databases in the source code that become out of date ;) |
| 11:08.03 | Noshei_ | I might be wrong, but I evelieve all pet summoning abilities start the same (for the name) so no need for a list |
| 11:08.23 | Wildtide | that would be good |
| 11:08.44 | Noshei_ | cleric ones all start "Summon: ", checking mage now |
| 11:09.16 | Noshei_ | yeah mage are the same |
| 11:09.30 | Wildtide | would need localized versions, but that should be easy enough |
| 11:10.12 | Noshei_ | bah, stupid rogues "Call: " |
| 11:10.18 | Wildtide | lol |
| 11:11.17 | Noshei_ | just "Summon " for warriors, no :, but at least it is the same word |
| 11:12.20 | Noshei_ | ZorbaTHut: Make sure to kick the Rogue Dev in the Ass for me please, can't be that hard to keep something that simple the same. |
| 11:12.31 | Wildtide | maybe storing a list of hard-coded ability IDs would be the better option after all |
| 11:13.04 | Wildtide | hehe. i suspect it's more to do with where the pets come from. you summon a demon, but you call your dog ;) |
| 11:13.41 | Noshei_ | dont summon the warrior pets though, call would be more approriate there |
| 11:13.57 | Wildtide | yeah, that's odd |
| 11:14.40 | Noshei_ | anyways, just something I was thinking about. Not really feeling like working on any of it atm, my back is killing me today, but at some point. |
| 11:15.06 | Wildtide | yep, i've got loads on my list that i'm struggling to get the enthusiasm to actually do |
| 11:15.58 | Noshei_ | I still need to figure out a way to do auto complete for easy mail, thats gonna be a pain in the ass |
| 11:16.37 | Wildtide | but on the hiding unit frames thing, i really would prefer it if Zorba could prioritize that one rather than us try to hack in inconsistent workarounds. lots of people want it, and it doesn't feel like it would be a big piece of work. obv i don't know what would really be involved |
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| 11:17.05 | Noshei_ | I might just not do it actually, not sure it's worth the work, considering the cool contacts window I added |
| 11:17.21 | Wildtide | :) |
| 11:18.02 | Wildtide | the other stuff (tex coords, etc), is fluff, but the secure frames thing is kinda breaking the addon |
| 11:18.22 | Noshei_ | yeah |
| 11:18.35 | Noshei_ | need SL to get here so we can have our Dev back full time |
| 11:18.45 | Wildtide | yep, we do :) |
| 11:19.14 | Noshei_ | heck we aren't even getting for us with SL |
| 11:20.02 | Noshei_ | I'm hoping that ZorbaTHut is able to get the dimensions API out to us pretty quick, but I'm not holding my breath |
| 11:20.35 | Wildtide | that was talked about in a livestream, so i wouldn't be surprised if Zorba has already done it |
| 11:21.04 | Noshei_ | from what he has told me the only addon related work for SL he has done was to add absorbs |
| 11:21.15 | Noshei_ | and only because that was super easy |
| 11:21.25 | Wildtide | ok, maybe not then |
| 11:23.38 | Wildtide | ofc, if the dimensions api does come out, we're going to be busy. my guild are already feeding me requests for Gadgets, there'll be no stopping them if the guild dimension is scriptable and it's done in Lua |
| 11:24.00 | noshei | lol |
| 11:24.29 | Noshei | what kind of stuff do they want? (feel free to send my way if you want) |
| 11:24.56 | Wildtide | last night's was a simple one - a cleansable debuff indicator on raid frames |
| 11:25.09 | Wildtide | because our healer kept forgetting to cleanse in RotP :) |
| 11:25.48 | Noshei | thats not so easy |
| 11:26.01 | Wildtide | i was thinking about a transparent poison skull indicator thing appearing over the frame |
| 11:26.09 | Noshei | API doesn't tell us if a buff/debuff is cleansable or now |
| 11:26.23 | Noshei | /s/now/not |
| 11:26.42 | Wildtide | you can't guarantee cleansable, but if it's a poison/curse/disease, it should be |
| 11:26.58 | Wildtide | i think that would be close enough |
| 11:27.12 | Noshei | yeah |
| 11:27.24 | Wildtide | i'm dropping it into the raid frames, i'll see what the guild think, and release it if it works |
| 11:28.37 | Noshei | one of my guild mates was really looking forward to Random Title, wonder how others will like it |
| 11:28.57 | Wildtide | i haven't tried that yet, i need to give it a go |
| 11:29.33 | Noshei | its easy enough to hack the timing to make it faster if you want as well, currnet limit is 1/minute |
| 11:30.22 | Wildtide | 1/second would be good for irritating people :) |
| 11:30.35 | Noshei | wonder is there is anyway to get better compression out of zlib, I've only been storing my mail archive for a few months now and I'm up to 142 KB already |
| 11:31.02 | Wildtide | which option are you specifying? |
| 11:31.13 | Noshei | for zlib? |
| 11:31.35 | Noshei | best compression |
| 11:32.13 | Wildtide | i imagine that's as good as you'll get then |
| 11:32.39 | Noshei | yeah, just hate to think what it will be a year from now |
| 11:32.56 | Wildtide | i never get in-game mail, mine would be about 2k :) |
| 11:33.09 | Wildtide | Asha Catari is about the only person who writes to me :D |
| 11:33.14 | Noshei | lol |
| 11:33.28 | Noshei | think what it will be like for ppl that use the AH a ton |
| 11:33.46 | Wildtide | aye |
| 11:33.47 | Noshei | and it is account based |
| 11:34.16 | Wildtide | are you writing zipped data out to saved variables then? |
| 11:34.26 | Wildtide | that must look odd in the Lua file |
| 11:35.37 | Noshei | "xÚä½mwÛF¶ïù¾?\5’µfÒwNw=âAëάÁ£“Žx,ßäÞ3™\23\16\5‹h€\14HZVÎ:óÙ§\ |
| 11:35.43 | Noshei | and so forth |
| 11:37.17 | Wildtide | nice :) |
| 11:39.17 | Noshei | you ever gonna add that mousewheel support to the Gadgets list, or should I do it for ya? |
| 11:41.00 | Wildtide | now that one wasn't even on my mental to-do list. feel free to add it if you want :) |
| 11:41.25 | Noshei | well werent you planning on changing it though? |
| 11:43.03 | Wildtide | yes, i was going to combine the create and modify windows into one. ok, leave it and i'll add mousewheel at the same time |
| 11:43.47 | Noshei | 2 months later..., lol |
| 11:44.11 | Wildtide | :) |
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| 12:33.33 | Thorarin | -.- |
| 12:34.18 | Thorarin | Accidentally hitting the circuit breaker when installing wires for new power socket ftl |
| 12:40.04 | Wildtide|afk | hitting it, as in turning it on? |
| 12:41.33 | Thorarin | I think I nicked the test button or the handle |
| 12:41.49 | Thorarin | Barely touched it, but all PCs powered down amongst other things :P |
| 12:43.40 | Wildtide | ahh |
| 12:49.57 | Thorarin | Nothing seems to be damaged luckily.. new wall socket is ready for the NAS I ordered this morning :P |
| 12:51.18 | Thorarin | My PC gave me a bit of a scare by not detecting the main RAID array :S |
| 12:51.24 | Wildtide | ouch |
| 12:51.49 | Thorarin | But sometimes the controller doesn't get an IRQ (or so it claims) and it ends up looking for disks for 2 minutes |
| 12:52.16 | Thorarin | Very rare, but luckily it was just that :) |
| 12:52.20 | Wildtide | wow, haven't seen an IRQ problem in about 20 years :) |
| 12:52.35 | Thorarin | It's kinda weird yeah |
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| 15:39.53 | Imhothar | ZorbaTHut is there any way to get the metatable of a widget type without having to create a widget instance? |
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| 18:29.08 | Imhothar | The requested URL was rejected. Please consult with your administrator. |
| 18:29.08 | Imhothar | Your support ID is: 13686915476409460244 |
| 18:29.23 | Imhothar | ZorbaTHut you need to slap the forum guys again |
| 18:29.32 | Imhothar | maybe use something big and heavy this time |
| 18:47.44 | seebs | I am about 70% sure that there is a round-robin filter in front of the forums, possibly with some units only being rotated in under load, and ONE of them has a buggy SQL injection prevention thing. |
| 18:47.54 | seebs | I've had it reject posts for "--", "exec", and a few other things like that. |
| 18:48.09 | jmerlin | I believe that's just vb |
| 18:49.54 | jmerlin | I need to dive into their PHP code and figure out exactly what it decides to block, because when discussing software engineering, I've had times where I just couldn't get it to accept a post, mainly, I believe, due to individual words and some combinations of a word and a ( |
| 18:50.34 | jmerlin | YouTube does something stupid too; you can't type "http" into YT even if it's not attached to an actual URL, so imagine trying to say "That's part of the HTTP standard." <-- impossibru. |
| 18:50.46 | jmerlin | Stupid filters are indicative of terrible programmers. |
| 18:52.49 | seebs | It's not vb, though. |
| 18:52.55 | seebs | Because if it were vB, it would be consistent. |
| 18:53.18 | seebs | I've never seen that message from anything but Rift forums, and I use a bunch of vB forums, and post code on them. |
| 18:53.35 | seebs | So I'm pretty sure it's something between the outside world and the vB code. |
| 18:53.40 | jmerlin | I've seen it on 4 different vb forums, but I can never reproduce it, and I've used plenty that don't do it, either. Perhaps an option that can be disabled? |
| 18:54.23 | Thorarin | There are web server modules that prevent things like SQL injection |
| 18:54.32 | Thorarin | Might one of them being activates |
| 18:54.37 | Thorarin | activated* |
| 18:56.09 | jmerlin | Actually, that would make more sense. |
| 18:56.26 | jmerlin | When I've seen it, my POST request times out, it doesn't give me a 4xx |
| 18:59.28 | seebs | Could be a choice of server software in some other way. |
| 18:59.43 | seebs | Whatever it is, it's inconsistent; a post that's rejected one day can be accepted the next. |
| 18:59.57 | seebs | I couldn't do any edits to the Welcome Back post when 1.11 shipped, but later that day I could. |
| 19:05.06 | jmerlin | Makes about as much sense as this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHXLd98cLHQ |
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| 20:45.35 | ZorbaTHut | limhothar, will forward that to 'em |
| 20:45.55 | ZorbaTHut | (along with seebs's analysis, 'cause it makes sense to me too :V) |
| 20:53.44 | Imhothar | to "forward" it sounds like a way too friendly approach |
| 21:02.05 | jmerlin | ^ |
| 21:21.09 | seebs | I have bounced it off community@ a few times, they've forwarded it to the web team, I think. |
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