| 00:31.13 | *** join/#riftuidev jmerlin (~jmerlin@205.185.121.225) |
| 00:56.40 | Imhothar | What sense does a portable mailbox with a 2h cooldown make... |
| 01:02.48 | jmerlin | About as much sense as melee dps being higher than ranged dps. |
| 01:03.05 | Noshei_ | actually both make sense |
| 01:03.44 | Noshei_ | portable mailbox is a convenience so a CD make sense, melee have to deal with more mechanics, so increased DPS make sense |
| 01:05.40 | jmerlin | There are plenty of fights that are the opposite, and Trion typically makes fights punish stacking 1 over the other (no melee = wipe, no ranged = wipe), the result is that if everyone's highest DPS soul is melee, then some people get shafted on the parses because they have to go ranged, and in the event of things like clerics doing significantly less ranged DPS than mages, for example, mages will always have to play ranged and clerics always melee, res |
| 01:21.43 | *** join/#riftuidev jmerlin (~jmerlin@205.185.121.225) |
| 01:21.43 | *** join/#riftuidev bctrainers (~bc@unaffiliated/bctrainers) |
| 01:31.41 | *** join/#riftuidev Noshei (~quassel@c-67-161-146-244.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 02:30.39 | *** join/#riftuidev jmerlin_ (~jmerlin@205.185.121.225) |
| 02:39.09 | seebs | Imhothar: The intent isn't that it's an always-available mailbox, but that every so often you can grab or send something when far from civilization. |
| 02:42.08 | jmerlin_ | But if you can on-demand teleport anywhere in the game, when are you far from civilization? |
| 03:01.53 | seebs | So, I did finally get to try actually running Rift with my second monitor using the onboard Intel HD video. |
| 03:01.56 | seebs | It got me about 10fps. |
| 03:02.00 | seebs | This is ridiculous. |
| 03:02.05 | seebs | As in, I went from 25ish to 35ish. |
| 03:05.43 | jmerlin_ | Hm, doing some tests, Rift's engine is really bad about caching assets in GPU vMem |
| 03:06.02 | jmerlin_ | I have 3GB GPU memory per card, yet it's swapping out everything as soon as it's not rendered anymore |
| 03:07.10 | jmerlin_ | At 40fps in meridian I'm at 100% cpu on the main thread |
| 03:10.02 | seebs | Huh! That might explain a lot. |
| 03:10.13 | seebs | Like why I get worse performance than I expect from a card with 2GB of memory. |
| 03:10.43 | jmerlin_ | I think that may also extend to font rendering |
| 03:11.24 | jmerlin_ | hm, maybe that's just terrain processing |
| 03:11.30 | jmerlin_ | the FPS shouldn't be this bad though, honestly |
| 03:11.46 | jmerlin_ | I can run source games at over 300 fps with much more complex maps |
| 03:12.48 | jmerlin_ | Absolute minimum graphics out on a rock in meridian: 78 fps (down from my top of 120, since I removed my CPU/mem overclock) |
| 03:13.18 | jmerlin_ | Turning terrain to maximum drops it to 65 |
| 03:13.44 | jmerlin_ | So 20% more work per frame render, seems steep. |
| 03:15.00 | Noshei | Wildtide: 1.11 tomorrow, so I'll be posting my updated Noshie's gadgets, do you have a version number for gadgets I should say it should be used with that will have the absorb changes? |
| 03:15.28 | jmerlin_ | Max objects 78 -> 53, ouch, I honestly think the most expensive thing in rift is rendering objects, maybe something is broken |
| 03:16.17 | jmerlin_ | Max texture quality has no impact, as expected, but it will cause stuttering as resources are loaded |
| 03:17.19 | jmerlin_ | AF and AA have no impact, either, GPU = doing absolutely nothing |
| 03:18.03 | jmerlin_ | Multipass terrain has no impact (probably just a shader?) |
| 03:21.38 | Imhothar | multipass terrain renders the terrain in multiple passes, i.e. the same geometry is rendered multiple times with different surface properties each time |
| 03:21.57 | jmerlin_ | Multipass with AO with AF/AA + FSFX is a pretty significant drop, each by themselves isn't significant |
| 03:23.52 | jmerlin_ | So players/npcs still seem to be the biggest difference alone |
| 03:25.07 | seebs | I should try to redo my addons before the weekend. |
| 03:25.22 | jmerlin_ | I need to write a JS -> lua compiler |
| 03:25.25 | jmerlin_ | So I can make addons. |
| 03:26.08 | Imhothar | that sounds like a terrible thing to do |
| 03:26.25 | Noshei | Cairenn: what so I need to do to add formatin g to an addon description? there is nothing I can find that explains this |
| 03:26.32 | jmerlin_ | Sounds awesome, IMO |
| 03:30.13 | Cairenn | Noshei: bb code |
| 03:30.22 | Cairenn | same as in the forums |
| 03:31.04 | Noshei | bah, forums dont have any thing to help with formatting either |
| 03:31.17 | Cairenn | huh? |
| 03:31.24 | Imhothar | just plain simple bb code |
| 03:31.38 | Cairenn | [b] bold [/b] |
| 03:31.40 | Cairenn | etc |
| 03:31.47 | Noshei | how is list done? |
| 03:32.05 | Cairenn | you don't see the bb code stuff when you post a thread? |
| 03:32.28 | Noshei | nope |
| 03:33.01 | Cairenn | [list] [*] item 1 |
| 03:33.02 | Cairenn | [*] item 2 |
| 03:33.02 | Cairenn | [*] item 3 |
| 03:33.02 | Cairenn | [/list] |
| 03:33.44 | Imhothar | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBCode |
| 03:34.03 | Cairenn | go to your user control panel, edit options, misc options (at the bottom), then either standard or enhanced |
| 03:34.17 | Noshei | ah found out why, I had basic editor box enabled instead of standard |
| 03:34.21 | Cairenn | yep |
| 03:34.35 | Cairenn | but yeah, it's good old standard bb code |
| 03:36.14 | Noshei | ok well got it posted now, thanks |
| 03:36.20 | Cairenn | :) |
| 03:37.06 | Noshei | now people can have their title change randomly, just like mine (well sorta, mine gets to change every 10 seonds compared to every 1 mintue for everyon else) |
| 03:38.27 | jmerlin_ | bleh, bbcode, bring on the markdown. |
| 04:00.19 | seebs | People in in-game chat are talking about how gadgets is the best ui mod around. |
| 04:01.00 | Noshei | it is pretty nice |
| 04:01.17 | seebs | Haven't tried it yet. It's sort of on my list, but I was off messing with DDO for a while. |
| 04:01.57 | Imhothar | I still haven't tried it. Too busy breaking my own addon and then fixing it again |
| 04:04.13 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar_ (~miranda@ppp-188-174-7-139.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 04:32.42 | *** join/#riftuidev Noshei (~quassel@c-67-161-146-244.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 06:47.13 | Wildtide | Noshei: it'll be 0.3.85 |
| 06:56.28 | Wildtide | looks like US is getting the update, and no mention of EU. i'll have to add some auto-detect code so that it'll work in 1.10 and 1.11 at the same time |
| 07:02.04 | *** join/#riftuidev NuSuey (u3556@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tgtzclbbnphvdtxv) |
| 07:17.11 | Wildtide | d'oh... talking to myself aren't i... Nosh isn't here :( |
| 07:55.37 | *** join/#riftuidev MadBeefPatty (b2c82ad5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.200.42.213) |
| 07:55.45 | MadBeefPatty | hi |
| 08:01.45 | Cairenn | hi |
| 08:23.20 | MadBeefPatty | i have a question about rift addon programming |
| 08:24.29 | MadBeefPatty | im very new to this |
| 08:26.34 | ZorbaTHut | people here tend to be friendly and happy to answer, although the channel's a bit quiet, so definitely expect to hang out here for long periods of time |
| 08:26.47 | Cairenn | As you can tell, most people are either asleep or at work right now, so go ahead and .... heh, what he said :) |
| 08:28.58 | MadBeefPatty | well, im from germany, not so late here ^^ |
| 08:29.48 | MadBeefPatty | id like to know how do u get all the IDs for items |
| 08:31.06 | ZorbaTHut | which kind of ID? there's two different kinds of item IDs - there's item type IDs, which represent the type of an item, and actual item IDs, which represent the specific item |
| 08:32.11 | ZorbaTHut | in the latter case, Inspect.Item.List() will do it, as well several things in the Event.Item.* hierarchy. In the former case you'll want Inspect.Item.Detail(), and there's also a downloadable file on the Trion FTP listing all the publicly-known items. |
| 08:33.34 | MadBeefPatty | stuff like that B1EECC8A0401010101"] = {akey="I415337311F9E919B,551D4A4EB5CFF4ED |
| 08:34.30 | MadBeefPatty | i have this from nkitembase file |
| 08:34.40 | ZorbaTHut | that second one is an item type ID (in general, any ID with a capital first letter is a type), and that's what you'd use Inspect.Item.Detail() to retrieve or to inspect. |
| 08:34.55 | ZorbaTHut | note that if you try to inspect item detail that isn't downloaded yet, you'll get an error on the first inspect. |
| 08:36.49 | MadBeefPatty | ok where do i use this inspect command in an addon? im very new, the thing is nkzoo is not working since patch 1.10 and i think its because of the new mounts |
| 08:37.36 | ZorbaTHut | from there, you're going to have to learn how to program, I'm afraid, and that's a pretty huge subject |
| 08:39.36 | MadBeefPatty | my idea was just to add the ids of the new mounts to the file, but maybe thats not enough |
| 08:40.14 | ZorbaTHut | it might be, but at that point I kinda have to shrug helplessly - I don't know the addon at all. |
| 08:41.11 | MadBeefPatty | but to get a list with all mount IDs i have to write an addon for it, with the command u told me? |
| 08:42.06 | ZorbaTHut | some of that is probably stored in the rift item database, but you may need to use an addon to put it all together. again, I don't know what nkzoo is looking for, that may or may not be enough |
| 08:43.45 | MadBeefPatty | ok how do i acess the database? |
| 08:44.55 | ZorbaTHut | check out the biggest file under ftp://ftp.trionworlds.com/rift/data/ |
| 08:45.03 | ZorbaTHut | you'll need to parse a whole ton of XML to get the intended data out |
| 08:45.47 | MadBeefPatty | which of the files is it the first one? |
| 08:46.17 | ZorbaTHut | the second one, I believe, but just dig around in there and see what you find |
| 08:49.43 | MadBeefPatty | i opened it, it just tell me when players discovered items |
| 08:50.02 | ZorbaTHut | it also includes the item type of the item |
| 08:50.07 | ZorbaTHut | or it might |
| 08:50.16 | ZorbaTHut | that might be a different file, as I said, look around the files and see what's avaialble |
| 08:53.31 | MadBeefPatty | well, thats a list with shard first, if i see it right, is there no regular list? |
| 08:54.45 | ZorbaTHut | I believe it includes both the shard-first data and the rest of the data |
| 08:56.38 | MadBeefPatty | search with the term spectral found nothing |
| 08:56.52 | ZorbaTHut | it's possible it's not updated with the absolute latest items |
| 08:57.00 | ZorbaTHut | if not, then you'd have to get the info from ingame |
| 08:58.14 | MadBeefPatty | i even dont find the mounts of the rift release version in this file |
| 09:01.58 | ZorbaTHut | well, then I'm not sure :) |
| 09:08.00 | MadBeefPatty | however i have to xml viewer who cant open the file and IE just gives me a list, which is not really long, compared to all the items the game got |
| 09:08.08 | MadBeefPatty | *two |
| 09:19.48 | *** join/#riftuidev WIldtide (0fe3b948@gateway/web/freenode/ip.15.227.185.72) |
| 09:20.52 | Baanano | MadBeefPatty, were the items you're looking for available on 14th september? |
| 09:21.18 | MadBeefPatty | B1EECC8A0401010101"] = {akey="I415337311F9E919B,551D4A4EB5CFF4ED the first key is call itemkey and the other keys r called "Addontype", thats what could find out with xml file, why do u call the last two keys of the item addontype? |
| 09:22.53 | MadBeefPatty | im tlaking about the rift mounts from patch 1.10 @baanano |
| 09:23.03 | MadBeefPatty | *talking |
| 09:23.39 | Baanano | dunno how that addon works, if you need the Items.xml to search the item types I can send you a copy without the shard firsts that would be easier to navigate, but my latest copy date is 14th september |
| 09:24.54 | MadBeefPatty | what do u use to open xml files? |
| 09:27.08 | Baanano | that file is too large to be opened easily, because of the shard firsts, but visual studio editor takes less time to open it than other editors i've tried |
| 09:29.20 | MadBeefPatty | in the file u got, do get all the mount IDs of the mounts who released till 14h september? |
| 09:29.28 | MadBeefPatty | *you |
| 09:30.25 | Baanano | they should be there, however 14th sep was near 1.10 release and some might haven't been discovered yet |
| 09:31.16 | MadBeefPatty | but how do some guys release addons with loot tables shwoing items with stats of the newest raids, i recall that when ID was released |
| 09:31.52 | Baanano | i'm downloading 15th October file, but you'd have to wait 4 hours since i have to go back to work |
| 09:35.28 | MadBeefPatty | dont make an effort, im just a noob ^^ |
| 09:36.17 | MadBeefPatty | i just wanna try to add some IDs to a list and dont even know if it works |
| 09:37.51 | Baanano | ok, see you later |
| 09:38.06 | MadBeefPatty | cu |
| 09:38.11 | Baanano | good luck ;) |
| 09:38.18 | MadBeefPatty | ty ^^ |
| 14:22.01 | *** join/#riftuidev Noshei (~quassel@c-67-161-146-244.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 14:48.33 | Wildtide | ello Noshei |
| 14:48.41 | Noshei | hey |
| 14:48.48 | Wildtide | i've released a version of Gadgets which hopefully contains what you need for absorbs |
| 14:52.34 | Wildtide | i haven't seen your updated templates yet. how have you managed displaying absorbs? |
| 14:52.57 | Wildtide | is it a border around the health bar (Trion-style), or something else? |
| 14:53.17 | Wildtide | something i said? ;) |
| 14:53.24 | *** join/#riftuidev Noshei (~quassel@c-67-161-146-244.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 14:53.42 | Wildtide | i've released a version of Gadgets which hopefully contains what you need for absorbs |
| 14:53.48 | Wildtide | i haven't seen your updated templates yet. how have you managed displaying absorbs? |
| 14:53.52 | Wildtide | is it a border around the health bar (Trion-style), or something else? |
| 14:54.21 | Noshei | on my health bar template it is |
| 14:54.44 | Noshei | on the other templates it is simply a bar above the mana bar |
| 14:54.51 | Wildtide | ah, cool |
| 14:55.59 | Wildtide | wasn't sure how to squeeze it into mine, given that we don't have gaps between the bars like Trion do. maybe a separate bar is the way to go |
| 14:58.03 | Noshei | so it is above the mana bar, but shares the same space as the HP bar |
| 14:58.22 | Noshei | so it partially covers the HP bar, but is transparent |
| 14:58.43 | Noshei | I figured since it won't always be present it didnt need its own space |
| 15:03.20 | Wildtide | ahh, sounds like you've done what i was thinking of doing |
| 15:03.30 | Noshei | just posted the update on rift ui, so you should be able to take a look at it shortly |
| 15:04.06 | Wildtide | cool |
| 15:04.12 | Noshei | doing a frame around the inside of the healthbar template was a pain |
| 15:04.32 | Noshei | used 4 frames to do it, but I had to figure out a way to fill them all correctly |
| 15:04.58 | Wildtide | ouch |
| 15:05.17 | Noshei | local absorb = (unit.absorb / unit.healthMax) * 100 |
| 15:05.17 | Noshei | if absorb > 96 and absorb < 100 then |
| 15:05.17 | Noshei | absorb = ((absorb-96)/4)*100 |
| 15:05.17 | Noshei | return absorb |
| 15:05.17 | Noshei | elseif absorb > 100 then |
| 15:05.18 | Noshei | return 100 |
| 15:05.20 | Noshei | else |
| 15:05.22 | Noshei | return nil |
| 15:05.24 | Noshei | end |
| 15:06.03 | Noshei | that was the for top frame, and then basically the same for the bottom, though slightly different |
| 15:08.21 | Wildtide | the -96/4 has me confused |
| 15:11.16 | Wildtide | absorb of 98%, becomes... 98-96 = 2, / 4 = 0.5, * 100, = 50%... ?? |
| 15:11.23 | Noshei | the top and bottom bars are set to be 4% of the total height of the frame |
| 15:11.45 | Noshei | hence the 96% |
| 15:12.10 | Wildtide | ohhh... it's a vertical bar isn't it? |
| 15:12.30 | Noshei | not that one |
| 15:12.40 | Wildtide | ok, then i'm still totally lost |
| 15:12.48 | Noshei | I made a box around the inside of the health bar |
| 15:12.54 | Noshei | with 2 frames |
| 15:13.26 | Noshei | that formula is to calculate what should be shown for the top frame that is horizontal |
| 15:13.57 | Noshei | this is on my healthBar template that fills vertically |
| 15:15.29 | Noshei | sec ill grab a pic from PTS |
| 15:16.30 | Noshei | oh and looks like you got all of the absorb changes in there with your update |
| 15:16.52 | Wildtide | i think i've got it. you only display it when it's 97-100%, and it's just the top few pixels that you're displaying. that makes sense |
| 15:16.56 | Wildtide | cool |
| 15:17.03 | Noshei | yes |
| 15:17.13 | Noshei | that is exactly correct |
| 15:17.24 | Wildtide | it was the "else nil" that i hadn't taken enough notice of |
| 15:18.17 | Wildtide | i'm pretty sure i'll go with a really thin bar at the bottom of the health bar, which sounds like the same thing you've done on the other ones |
| 15:18.47 | Noshei | yeah |
| 15:18.56 | Wildtide | which with your absorb property already in place, should take about 2 mins to add :) |
| 15:19.22 | Wildtide | don't remember now - is your property capped at 100% ? |
| 15:19.31 | Noshei | yes |
| 15:19.35 | Wildtide | even better :) |
| 15:20.33 | Wildtide | have you got a piccy of your normal bar on the PTS? can't look myself atm |
| 15:21.11 | Noshei | yup, just updating |
| 15:21.15 | Wildtide | nw if you haven't, just interested in what colour/thickness you went for |
| 15:21.54 | Wildtide | btw, don't know if you've tried, but for testing stuff out, something like this is quite useful: |
| 15:22.04 | *** join/#riftuidev g0urra (~g0urra@unaffiliated/gourra) |
| 15:22.06 | Wildtide | . /script WT.Player.absorb = 1000 |
| 15:22.31 | Noshei | yeah |
| 15:22.43 | Noshei | i have a billion absorbs though as a cleric, so its easy |
| 15:22.50 | Wildtide | good point :) |
| 15:23.27 | Wildtide | it was useful when i changed the mark implementation, being able to set the mark on the player without having to be in a group |
| 15:23.34 | Noshei | https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/mB3ZR3fep1E_yvvHDVCBprys8qbip7nJ7g-K7EV58pJz1lXFkNwu9Sh9XjHp1GvC-nzVMBhF9B4 |
| 15:24.23 | Noshei | it uses the same color regardless, I tried to match it up to the color trion used |
| 15:24.34 | Wildtide | yeah, was going to do the same thing |
| 15:24.44 | Wildtide | the 150% is? |
| 15:24.57 | Wildtide | the total of your health and absorb? |
| 15:25.11 | Noshei | yes |
| 15:25.29 | Noshei | total of your current hp%+absorb% |
| 15:25.36 | Wildtide | yep |
| 15:25.50 | Noshei | so if your at 80% hp and 50% absorb it would be 130% |
| 15:26.37 | Wildtide | i wasn't intending putting a % indicator on. i'll just go with a plain bar, and see if anyone complains. the standard frame has got so many things stuck to it now that i'm loathe to add too much |
| 15:26.47 | Noshei | I didnt do any scaling except on the HealthBar frame, the others just stay the same size, but I didnt really make them very well for scaling in general |
| 15:27.08 | Wildtide | mine are the same tbh, it's only the health bar that scales |
| 15:27.13 | Noshei | yeah I know the feeling, thats why I made the % text small |
| 15:27.44 | Noshei | now I just need to add it to double bar, that will be interesting, cause that one does scale and really well |
| 15:28.38 | Wildtide | if the framework doesn't support what you need, feel free to hack it around and i'll put out an update alongside your changes |
| 15:29.18 | Wildtide | though the 0.8 type of anchoring should be enough hopefully |
| 15:30.45 | Noshei | oh yeah it's all there now, otherwise I wouldnt have release doublebar as I wanted it to scale reall well |
| 15:30.52 | Wildtide | cool |
| 15:31.01 | Noshei | have you seen what it looks like? |
| 15:31.15 | Wildtide | doublebar? yes, i really like it |
| 15:31.57 | Noshei | I think I might do the same thing I did for healthBar and have a boz around the HP |
| 15:32.32 | Wildtide | makes sense |
| 15:33.02 | Noshei | just not much room to work with, so it will only be like 2px |
| 15:33.25 | Wildtide | that's all i'm giving 'em ;) |
| 15:34.55 | Wildtide | i do wonder how useful the absorb indicator will be in game. it's a nice feature, but i wonder how much notice healers will take of it |
| 15:35.04 | Noshei | but that will have to wait, have to leave soon for stuff today. |
| 15:35.15 | Noshei | I think healers will use it, I know i will |
| 15:35.25 | Noshei | and heck, im a tank |
| 15:35.31 | Wildtide | me too :) |
| 15:36.18 | Noshei | hey ZorbaTHut any chance you can edit my addon threads so they include [Addon] in the title? |
| 15:36.35 | Noshei | http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-general-discussions/addon-api-development/329539-nosheis-gadget-templates.html |
| 15:36.39 | Noshei | http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-general-discussions/addon-api-development/326330-easy-mail.html |
| 15:36.42 | Noshei | http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-general-discussions/addon-api-development/328162-gadgets-stats.html |
| 15:36.59 | Noshei | I always manage to forget when I create the posts, lol |
| 15:41.43 | Noshei | so kinda funny, I have nothing else going on this week at all, but today I have three different appointments spread across a pretty big area |
| 15:47.32 | Wildtide | busy day then? |
| 15:49.43 | Wildtide | in this modern age of ILO cards etc, i wouldn't have thought you needed to actually travel much? |
| 15:51.02 | Wildtide | "- Double Bad does not yet include Absorbs" ... nice typo ;) |
| 16:53.26 | *** join/#riftuidev jmerlin (~jmerlin@205.185.121.225) |
| 17:11.09 | *** join/#riftuidev Noshei (~quassel@c-67-161-146-244.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 18:00.12 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar (~miranda@ppp-188-174-7-139.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 18:09.32 | Imhothar | ugh, why does the recent beta email have black text on a drk background... Someone didn't do their homework |
| 18:11.35 | jmerlin | You can always highlight it :) |
| 18:11.52 | Imhothar | thank you, Captain Obvious |
| 18:11.52 | purl | Imhothar: pas de quoi |
| 18:12.49 | Imhothar | eeek who put hte French guy in here |
| 18:13.50 | jmerlin | Imhothar: Not you. |
| 18:14.52 | jmerlin | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn-noqGTwuo |
| 18:21.19 | *** join/#riftuidev Thorarin (thorarin@D57DA213.static.ziggozakelijk.nl) |
| 19:04.23 | seebs | Heh, the previous email, at least, the plain text one had unreplaced placeholders. |
| 19:04.54 | seebs | Our next closed beta event will begin [date] and end [date]. Prepare now – join the discussions on the #Beta forums#. |
| 19:05.01 | seebs | This one actually has the information filled in. :) |
| 20:05.36 | Imhothar | "security questions" - the most insecure security feature ever invented |
| 20:06.44 | jmerlin | Who even came up with that? |
| 20:06.52 | jmerlin | I'd love to go back in time and slap him in the face with a fish. |
| 20:16.09 | ZorbaTHut | noshei, titles edited |
| 20:16.19 | ZorbaTHut | guess noshei isn't around |
| 20:16.28 | ZorbaTHut | someone tell noshei the title is edited next time they're around :V |
| 20:26.29 | seebs | Security questions are an attempt to "solve" the problem of two-factor authentication, by providing an easy way to bypass password security. Which is to say: You may think they're stupid, but what you feel for them is nothing compared to the way security people feel about them. |
| 20:27.30 | Imhothar | well as long as you answer them honestly all they do is add more ways of getting account access |
| 20:28.26 | ZorbaTHut | this is why all of my security answers are 50-character-long alphanumeric strings |
| 20:28.39 | seebs | Yeah, I've been using generated passwords for them for a while. |
| 20:28.53 | ZorbaTHut | "What was the name of your first pet?" "u69gjiv66aws78agbw6q8yy3jwfswnuxodmiumpf8vs863kruj" |
| 20:28.56 | seebs | Jesse has a credit card we can't configure or interact with because they have tied it to a special word that we don't know. |
| 20:29.01 | ZorbaTHut | (gjiv for short) |
| 20:29.04 | Imhothar | well that adds another insecurity: you need to store them somewhere as I assume you can't remember them |
| 20:29.07 | seebs | And they can't reset it. |
| 20:29.16 | ZorbaTHut | imhothar, in a cryptographically secure password file |
| 20:29.33 | Imhothar | "cryptographicsally secure" |
| 20:29.40 | seebs | Well, actually, they can reset it, but only if Jesse talks to them. But Jesse can't talk to strangers on the phone. And while I can do anything ELSE to the account with the power of attorney forms, I can't get the secret word. |
| 20:29.42 | Imhothar | time will tell |
| 20:29.51 | ZorbaTHut | in order to get the file they'd need a password that I use for *only* that file, and, of course, the file itself. Which isn't to say it's immune to attacks, but if they can get those things, they can probably just keylog my passwords |
| 20:31.19 | Imhothar | that's all true, but I say the majority of people put real and maybe honest answers there |
| 20:31.25 | ZorbaTHut | Oh, probably, yeah. |
| 20:31.34 | Imhothar | making it a security hole for the majority of users |
| 20:31.46 | Imhothar | and still corps insist on using them |
| 20:32.22 | ZorbaTHut | the problem is that while it might be a security hole, it's also a password retrieval system. at some point, the number of people who are able to retrieve their passwords through that system will outweigh the number of people who are compromised through it |
| 20:32.40 | Imhothar | "what was your high school mascot" -> look up the highschool on facebook -> lookup the highschool homepage -> bäm |
| 20:32.42 | jmerlin | seebs: I feel for them the same way, since I am security people (I discovered the issue with Rift's authentication before that exploit went public, but I didn't try to break it) |
| 20:32.48 | ZorbaTHut | I strongly suspect that the majority of modern password compromises are due to hackers getting plaintext password databases - I doubt many people go through the secret-question system |
| 20:32.51 | jmerlin | I've been cryptographically generating my passwords for some time now. |
| 20:33.14 | seebs | I was about second place on figuring it out. I had gotten as far as being able to log in using an old token despite having changed email address AND password for an account. |
| 20:33.15 | ZorbaTHut | things are a bit different if the adversary is explicitly trying to break a specific account, but I'd guess that's a tiny minority of hackers. |
| 20:33.35 | Imhothar | probably |
| 20:34.00 | seebs | It's mostly a thing that got adopted because people were told two-factor systems were more secure, so they added a new factor. So they could say it was two-factor. |
| 20:34.30 | ZorbaTHut | I will have a ten-factor authentication system! it has ten layers of secret questions and if you get any of them right you can get into the account |
| 20:34.31 | ZorbaTHut | 10 > 2 |
| 20:34.32 | seebs | I'm not a real security person, although I have a very good track record with finding holes when I needed them. |
| 20:34.34 | ZorbaTHut | my math is flawless |
| 20:34.57 | jmerlin | I heard that if you compound your encryption by encrypting it with another encryption, it becomes stronger. |
| 20:35.03 | seebs | My favorite security hole was an ascend ISDN router I once had to fix the configuration for after the ISP shipped it to us (1) misconfigured (2) without telling us the admin password. |
| 20:35.07 | jmerlin | So I decided to encrypt all my sensitive information like ROT13(ROT13(x)) |
| 20:35.10 | seebs | Yes. I use double-rot13 for everything. |
| 20:35.12 | seebs | .... |
| 20:35.12 | jmerlin | Nobody will ever break that. |
| 20:35.12 | seebs | dammit. |
| 20:35.14 | jmerlin | :P |
| 20:35.30 | ZorbaTHut | yeah I thought of the same joke and then thought "eh, either jmerlin or seebs or imhothar will make that one, I'm not gonna bother" |
| 20:35.32 | ZorbaTHut | I claim victory |
| 20:35.34 | seebs | So, I poked at the router a bit, and found out: You can ask it to save its current state over TFTP. Including the plain-text password. |
| 20:35.44 | ZorbaTHut | seebs, hah, brilliant. |
| 20:35.47 | seebs | I believe I reported this to Ascend, but I doubt they cared. |
| 20:36.28 | ZorbaTHut | the closest I've come to mucking around with security is getting fed up with needing to keep the manual around in order to get past X-Wing's copy protection |
| 20:36.36 | seebs | It took me easily 20 minutes to get sufficient access to reconfigure it, from starting at "I think I know how to get to the console on this". |
| 20:36.37 | seebs | Heh. |
| 20:36.38 | ZorbaTHut | ended up hex-editing the data files to make all the secret answers "X" |
| 20:36.44 | seebs | Oh, that's sneaky. |
| 20:37.09 | Imhothar | Teamspeal 2 used to store passwords plaintext if you were using the sqlite backend |
| 20:37.11 | ZorbaTHut | wasn't too tough, though, it was all in plaintext. without that I probably would've had to come up with another solution |
| 20:37.33 | ZorbaTHut | (although there were few enough passwords that if you just memorized a few Star Wars planet names you'd probably get in with a dozen tries or so) |
| 20:37.40 | seebs | I made a console app for my Amiga which answered the security questions from the manual for Starflight, because I had a dumb terminal on a serial port and could have a shell open while playing. |
| 20:37.43 | seebs | Heh. |
| 20:37.49 | ZorbaTHut | ("KASHYYYK" "TATOOINE" "CORUSCANT") |
| 20:38.07 | seebs | I did look up the passwords in Neuromancer, but MHO, it's not cheating to look up the passwords in the binary for Neuromancer. |
| 20:38.23 | ZorbaTHut | yeah if there's any game where that's a legitimate solution strategy it's probably Neuromancer. |
| 20:38.25 | ZorbaTHut | or Uplink. |
| 20:38.29 | Imhothar | like the picture riddles on simon the sorcerer? they were awesome. at times nobody had internet they were pretty nice |
| 20:40.14 | jmerlin | I really like my bank's password reset feature -- you have to know my SSN, credit card #, and have access to my phone or e-mail |
| 20:40.40 | jmerlin | Unfortunately, their password policy is just alpha numerics. |
| 20:41.47 | ZorbaTHut | reminds me of a bank pentest story where the hired testers ended up able to bruteforce every single PIN on every single account in about 48 hours. |
| 20:42.02 | Imhothar | I wonder why homebanking secirity over here is ok with just a 5 digit PIN for logging in. Granted, you need a TAN to do anything, but you get access to all the info with just the account number and a 5 digit PIN? |
| 20:42.07 | ZorbaTHut | The VP was the one who'd pushed to hire testers. Turned out his PIN was 1234. |
| 20:42.48 | ZorbaTHut | also worth noting that they were able to do this from a single IP on a personal internet connection :V |
| 20:42.59 | jmerlin | lol |
| 20:43.02 | Imhothar | brute forcing 36^5 combinations doesn't take *that* long |
| 20:43.18 | Imhothar | 1234 is the best pin ever |
| 20:43.32 | ZorbaTHut | imhothar, it *should* be impossible - lock the account after a few dozen failed guesses |
| 20:43.34 | Imhothar | and the "password" password |
| 20:43.44 | Imhothar | one would think |
| 20:44.26 | jmerlin | I would implement a password-ban feature (your password can't be stupid, or a dictionary word, or any of these horrendously common passwords) |
| 20:44.36 | ZorbaTHut | in some ways that's why I think the whole password-length thing is a red herring. If you're using a good scheme, there should be no attacks that can break an 8-character password but not a 12-character password. And if your password file isn't compromised, a 4-character password should honestly be sufficient. |
| 20:44.48 | ZorbaTHut | (but don't, you know, actually use a 4-character password, because that's just asking for trouble) |
| 20:45.08 | jmerlin | But I have a key (think SSL privkey) that I generated that I use to seed a cryptographically secure PRNG along with my master password, and then I generate passwords from that. |
| 20:45.47 | Imhothar | well that's a bit extreme |
| 20:45.57 | jmerlin | On the contrary, I need only remember 1 password. |
| 20:46.05 | jmerlin | I think I'll make a Chrome extension that does it soon enough |
| 20:46.16 | jmerlin | auto-replace passwords in password fields for you (if you enable it for that site) |
| 20:46.18 | Imhothar | a sha1 hash of a random internet text is just as secure as whatever you just did there |
| 20:46.33 | jmerlin | Imhothar: But I don't want to remember N passwords, just 1. |
| 20:46.40 | Imhothar | ya I get that |
| 20:46.44 | Imhothar | that's not the point |
| 20:48.53 | jmerlin | What's the point? lol |
| 20:48.57 | jmerlin | It's pretty simple, IMO |
| 20:51.11 | Imhothar | the point is an infinitesimally small and dimensionless spatial location |
| 20:52.21 | Imhothar | sorry, my head is loaded with math atm |
| 20:52.23 | jmerlin | But apparently if you put aleph 1 infinite of them together, you get dimensions. |
| 20:56.18 | jmerlin | I think any N-dimensional space is isomorphic to the reals, right? I can't remember, it's been forever since I took functional analysis |
| 20:58.47 | jmerlin | or to a subfield of it |
| 20:58.51 | Imhothar | that's not really my expertise as I usually don't need to deal with infinite quantities |
| 20:58.51 | ZorbaTHut | man, 1.11 is a pretty huge patch, isn't it |
| 20:59.19 | jmerlin | ZorbaTHut: hugely crappy patch :) |
| 20:59.53 | ZorbaTHut | People seem to like it overall. I'm reasonably satisfied with it. |
| 21:00.15 | Thorarin | Define people :) |
| 21:00.28 | jmerlin | Warden/Purifier is cool, Sentinel seems pointless, but Cleric DPS makes me cry. |
| 21:00.29 | ZorbaTHut | Feedback is overall positive. :) |
| 21:00.40 | jmerlin | ZorbaTHut: can you confirm if Zinbik is told to make Cleric DPS suck? |
| 21:00.58 | ZorbaTHut | I don't even know who Zinbik is. I don't have much interaction with the systems guys. |
| 21:01.04 | jmerlin | lol |
| 21:01.13 | jmerlin | Can't be THAT big a company |
| 21:02.11 | ZorbaTHut | You'd be surprised :) My work doesn't really intersect with systems at all, so I just don't end up talking with them. I've been talking to art a lot more recently due to my rendering work, but most of the time I'm still hanging out with engineering. |
| 21:02.49 | jmerlin | But.. wouldn't that be like an engineering role? |
| 21:03.55 | ZorbaTHut | no, not even close. It's generally considered a specialization of design. |
| 21:04.22 | ZorbaTHut | Engineering writes the tools that lets the various Design groups set up abilities and the like, but then they just go hog wild until either they need something or they break something. |
| 21:05.13 | ZorbaTHut | (often resulting in a poor engineer saying "I didn't expect you to use it *that* way". First rule of tools engineering: Design and Art will *always* abuse whatever you give them.) |
| 21:06.50 | Thorarin | Sounds familiar :) |
| 21:08.01 | jmerlin | So that would explain everything. |
| 21:08.04 | jmerlin | That really should be an engineering role, IMHO. |
| 21:08.22 | ZorbaTHut | I think you're either drastically underestimating Design or drastically overestimating engineers. |
| 21:08.32 | jmerlin | The design is 1 part, the making it actually work is another. |
| 21:11.18 | *** join/#riftuidev Noshei (~quassel@c-67-161-146-244.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 21:11.57 | jmerlin | If you handed an engineer a set of specs (how each soul should play, what each ability should do, and how strong each should be, what VFX to use, etc) and then included also things like "the DPS of these souls should be roughly this with these stats, the HPS of these souls should be roughly here, and mitigation should be about like this" |
| 21:12.30 | jmerlin | It'd be as simple as writing a few tests to determine if those specifications were met. |
| 21:12.55 | jmerlin | And a fuzzer to generate builds and find wonky DPS specs like ~8k warriors |
| 21:13.11 | jmerlin | Testing solved this problem a long time ago, or at least made it very rare |
| 21:13.44 | Imhothar | I think the answer is "drastically underestimate design" |
| 21:14.23 | jmerlin | Imhothar: The alternative to computer-aided testing is to come up with accurate mathematical models for a nondeterministic process. |
| 21:14.32 | jmerlin | I highly doubt anyone in design is a Ph.D. in applied math. |
| 21:15.02 | Imhothar | how do you mathematically model the itneraction between two classes in pvp? |
| 21:15.10 | jmerlin | Exactly. |
| 21:15.13 | Imhothar | and the people controlling them |
| 21:15.16 | jmerlin | Exactly. |
| 21:15.24 | Imhothar | well then go ahead |
| 21:15.54 | jmerlin | I'm not going to go ahead because I wouldn't do it with math. I would test it with a computer. |
| 21:17.06 | jmerlin | I tried to come up with a mathematical model for predicting the DPS of an inquisitor back when I still played, it was a terribly not-fun process. |
| 21:18.12 | jmerlin | But only 2 hours spent writing a simulator and I was able to quickly test changes in spec/rotation and find answers. |
| 21:20.56 | Imhothar | Engineering builds the simulator, Design runs the simulations and tweaks the parameters. Once Engineering is done building the simulator it's no longer their job to do the actual game design and balancing |
| 21:38.59 | jmerlin | Except a simulator is like a DFS, without fuzzing and specific knowledge, it can't be used to do automated analysis or find issues, so basically a designer just plugs in a build and a rotation, runs a simulation, is happy, and everything is fine, right? That's like testing your linear time comparison sort on a sorted list every time. |
| 21:51.58 | seebs | Huh. |
| 21:52.15 | seebs | So does "bombs and charges benefit from buffs to ranged attacks" mean they proc weapon enchants and poisons? |
| 21:57.48 | jmerlin | Test it :) |
| 21:58.07 | seebs | I plan to but it may be a while. |
| 21:58.12 | seebs | Figured someone might already know. |
| 21:58.31 | jmerlin | I'm curious how ID is going to go today for people. |
| 21:58.42 | jmerlin | DPS is significantly higher, but IIRC people were saying tanks are taking a lot more damage |
| 21:58.46 | jmerlin | This will be interesting. |
| 21:59.47 | seebs | Yeah. There's a lot of retuning going on. Also apparently a valor fix and a resistance fix went in at the same time, but each had only been tested separately. Whoops. |
| 22:00.26 | jmerlin | "valor fix" ? |
| 22:00.52 | seebs | The valor mechanic and resistance mechanic both got tweaked. Net result, players are far too durable with respect to elemental damage, I guess. |
| 22:03.06 | jmerlin | See this is one of those cases where I don't think any logic has been applied, not particularly in this case, but the valor concept in general. I made a post about this that was flamed by people who can't understand basic math, but it's really really simple. People complain about durability in PvP, and so heals get nerfed. |
| 22:03.35 | jmerlin | Say you have 50% damage reduction from valor, that means a 1000 hit will only hit you for 500 (ignoring resistances, cooldowns, whatever else) |
| 22:03.59 | jmerlin | But at the same time, a 1000 heal will still hit you for 1000, meaning it would require 2000 points of damage to match a 1000 point heal. That is, heals are 1/(1-x) as effective as they should be, where x is your valor reduction from 0-1 |
| 22:04.16 | seebs | Given my general experience of them, I'm betting Trion has given it real thought, but they sometimes don't get everything. I do like the degree to which they're willing to adjust things suitably or just plain toss 'em out. |
| 22:04.28 | jmerlin | So the nerfs to heals started at like 20-30%, then ramped up to 60% on some heals, then you have heal debuffs that counter-act 50%, but still, with more valor heals are still more effective. |
| 22:04.32 | seebs | Yeah. There's a lot of problems that come from the very weird difference between what makes for fun PvP and what makes for fun PvE. |
| 22:05.02 | jmerlin | But the problem with just a flat reduction in heals in PvP is that someone with 0 valor and 8000 HP will take a full 1000 damage but now will receive only 400 healing. |
| 22:05.09 | seebs | Yeah. |
| 22:05.18 | jmerlin | My solution was simple: valor reduces damage by m%, but also decreases healing received by m%. |
| 22:05.21 | jmerlin | :| |
| 22:05.34 | seebs | I love the streaming client download. |
| 22:06.00 | seebs | I mean, yeah, I'm not actually IN yet, but I am a lot closer to being logged in and testing stuff than I would be on the previous client. |
| 22:06.14 | jmerlin | Hasn't streaming been on live? |
| 22:10.17 | jmerlin | I don't remember, I quit before ID went live and so most of my time up till then was testing in ID, so I can't distinguish PTS from live anymore (like I expected to have 11 charges on live when I re-subbed, etc) |
| 22:15.50 | seebs | It's been around for a while, I just really like it. :) |
| 22:16.09 | seebs | Oooh. Saboteurs now get 30m range by default. |
| 22:16.23 | jmerlin | Inquisitors can get 35m range and no pushback :o |
| 22:16.34 | jmerlin | I won't feel sad about marksmen standing behind me anymore. |
| 22:18.29 | jmerlin | We'll be watching and we'll adjust things as needed as things are proven with data and testing. We always appreciate real data points from the community, parses, etc, with as much information about buffs and debuffs on the target as possible. |
| 22:18.33 | jmerlin | ~Daglar |
| 22:18.58 | jmerlin | That basically screams "we don't even have a simulator, we just tested on a dummy on Alpha" |
| 22:19.20 | jmerlin | Live -> not a beta. |
| 22:23.05 | seebs | woah |
| 22:23.13 | seebs | Charges do now proc poisons and essences. |
| 22:23.25 | seebs | sin/sab just became unreasonable again. :) |
| 22:24.52 | jmerlin | unreasonably awesome? |
| 22:25.06 | seebs | yes |
| 22:25.08 | seebs | wait what |
| 22:25.16 | seebs | I ... I got the money for killing something. WITHOUT LOOTING. |
| 22:25.22 | seebs | Did they make money autoloot? |
| 22:25.48 | jmerlin | No clue, patchnotes |
| 22:26.07 | seebs | I don't remember seeing it, and I have read a whole lot of patch notes. |
| 22:27.36 | seebs | oh my |
| 22:27.55 | seebs | Spend points on "does 20% damage over 6 seconds". The ticks can proc poisons. |
| 22:28.37 | jmerlin | Yo dawg, we heard you like poisons, so we put poisons in your poisons so you can poison while you poison! |
| 22:38.08 | seebs | Huh, I'm not seeing names on things anymore. My settings should show them, I just don't see any. |
| 22:38.31 | seebs | This sounds familiar. Hmm. I wonder, I think there was some busted interaction with GPU settings. |
| 22:39.23 | ZorbaTHut | if you've got supersampling on, try turning it off |
| 22:40.02 | seebs | Yup, that's it. |
| 22:40.13 | seebs | I thought there was some bad interaction between AA and nameplates I read about a few months back. |
| 22:40.21 | seebs | Need a bug report, or do you already know about it? :) |
| 22:41.01 | seebs | I am preemptively sad, because I am pretty sure that the current state of sin/sab is gonna be like Charge Booster at launch; so obviously ridiculous that it has to go away. |
| 22:45.03 | ZorbaTHut | we know about it :V wouldn't surprise me if it ends up being my next bug to work on |
| 22:46.17 | seebs | Hmm. I have this vague recollection that I was once able to get nameplates and names to interact in a way which suited my emotional needs. |
| 22:46.19 | jmerlin | ZorbaTHut: did you ever fix that bug with the skill list covering up the clickable screen region when scaled up? |
| 22:46.32 | ZorbaTHut | hmm, not sure I remember that one |
| 22:47.00 | seebs | Huh. I suppose all I really want is guild tags on nameplates so I can tell what kind of vendor I have targeted. |
| 22:53.35 | seebs | This is actually pretty comparable to what I was doing with charge booster before it got its much-needed nerf. |
| 23:56.52 | Imhothar | loadstring is fantatic |
| 23:57.50 | Imhothar | hmm taht could be either fanatic or fantastic |
| 23:57.59 | Imhothar | pick whichever suits you best |
| 23:58.06 | Noshei | lol |
| 23:58.16 | Noshei | I like fantatic |