| 00:08.12 | Imhothar | he's just preparing for that VPN access |
| 00:09.33 | Wildtide | whoa, well reminded! |
| 00:09.56 | Wildtide | my dongle for accessing the work network expires tonight, need to dig out the laptop |
| 00:10.14 | Imhothar | 777 views on Watchdog puzzles |
| 00:10.19 | Imhothar | a very popular thread indeed |
| 00:11.51 | Wildtide | 'tis a bit of a hot topic |
| 00:14.55 | Wildtide | "Your DigitalBadge will expire in 0 days!" |
| 00:15.12 | Wildtide | you saved me a bit of (good natured) manager abuse there Imho :) |
| 00:19.09 | Wildtide | i love my company... "Special employee only offer, HP Phoenix ...., only £950!" ... or I could go to PC World and buy one for £850 |
| 00:19.28 | Noshei | lol |
| 00:21.27 | Wildtide | mind you, in fairness, i got a Touchpad during the mad firesale really cheap when no-one else could get em, so it's not all bad |
| 00:25.02 | *** join/#riftuidev Cairenn (~Owner@MMOI/Administratrix/Cairenn) |
| 00:25.02 | *** mode/#riftuidev [+o Cairenn] by ChanServ |
| 00:30.34 | Noshei | hey ZorbaTHut, can you call up Elrar and tell him to push the patch back like 15 minutes, that would be great! |
| 01:01.12 | Imhothar | hmm they're throwing all EU shards into one instance queue cluster? that will be an interesting thing to communication |
| 01:01.34 | Imhothar | believe it or not, there are sill enough people out there who don't knwo english |
| 01:01.47 | Noshei | I believe it |
| 01:04.15 | Imhothar | Somehow this reminds of yet another american arrogance thing. Had a discussion about such topics with an american a few weeks ago |
| 01:05.41 | Imhothar | when that chage hits the first thing to so in a group is finding out what language everyone is speaking |
| 01:06.00 | Noshei | lol |
| 02:59.53 | seebs | Oh, hey, I have a crazy thought. |
| 03:00.10 | seebs | So, there is always debate about where the game is slowing down so much during boss fights, and raids, and such. |
| 03:00.19 | seebs | And people say they think it's the network code. Which seems unlikely to me. |
| 03:00.34 | seebs | But it could be TESTED. By just getting into an EI battle with slideshow frame rates, and unplugging the cable. :) |
| 03:09.33 | Noshei | well if your getting slideshow framerates then you could potentially keep showing the game going for a decent amount of time after you lose connection due to data you've already received but haven't processed |
| 03:14.11 | seebs | Well, thing is. |
| 03:14.28 | seebs | What I have noticed in general is that the game runs identically whether or not it has network connectivity, from a framerate perspective. |
| 03:15.58 | Noshei | yeah it will usually keep playing for multiple seconds after the connection has been lost |
| 03:16.22 | Noshei | see that all the time when they restart the servers |
| 03:28.40 | bctrainers | network wont effect FPS lag |
| 03:35.44 | seebs | That's what I thought. |
| 03:36.15 | seebs | But people on forum were insisting that the problem is the network code. And that seems odd, but if there were a way it could be true, it would explain the observed behavior, which is neither CPU nor GPU being busy, and frame rates being really low. |
| 03:42.30 | Imhothar | i don't think it's the networking, because I'm quite certin the networking code runs in a different thread |
| 03:42.55 | Imhothar | but you got to consider that boss fights probably have a lot of traffic which causes many updates to game state and the UI |
| 03:43.14 | Imhothar | and the particle effects, don't get me started on particles |
| 03:43.29 | Imhothar | particle effects can decide between slideshow and movie |
| 03:44.58 | seebs | Yeah. I just wonder what's going on that makes the game slow down such that, apparently, no CPU core is heavily loaded AND the GPU is mostly idle. |
| 03:46.15 | Imhothar | how do you detect "gpu mostly idle" |
| 03:46.21 | Imhothar | reliably |
| 03:46.50 | seebs | That is a good question; I think people are using GPU load monitors provided by the vendors. No idea how reliable those are. |
| 03:48.32 | Imhothar | well you got NvPerfHUD and similar, but usually those need to be enabled by the application being monitored |
| 03:49.03 | Noshei | it's a server side issue |
| 03:49.29 | Noshei | a lot goes into the server processing before it send everything out |
| 03:49.44 | Imhothar | and how does that cause fps drops? |
| 03:50.05 | Noshei | if the server is doing a shit load it can only send so much data |
| 03:50.29 | Imhothar | that still doesn't cause the client's fps to drop |
| 03:50.32 | Noshei | thus giving your computer nothing to display |
| 03:51.00 | Imhothar | the client updates the display all the time |
| 03:51.10 | Imhothar | it's a render loop that goes on and on and on |
| 03:51.50 | Imhothar | networking runs asynchornously and injects events into that loop |
| 03:54.00 | Noshei | yeah but if the server is telling the client it is sending data and to wait for it, if the server isn't sending out the data very fast it can result in reduced framerate |
| 03:56.06 | Imhothar | the client doesn't wait for anything |
| 03:56.30 | Imhothar | those systems are completely unrelated |
| 03:57.31 | Imhothar | you have the main thread drawing the UI and the game world and then secondary thread(s) doing their own business. Only when there is data received from the server does the networking systme inject an event into the main loop |
| 03:58.49 | Imhothar | that are highly asynchronous systems |
| 04:00.11 | Noshei | I would put money on it being a data processing issue on their server end |
| 04:00.29 | Imhothar | well you'd lose it for sure |
| 04:01.01 | Imhothar | the server can only influence the clients fpu by bombarding it with more traffic than it can handle |
| 04:01.26 | Imhothar | tobe more precise, more messages then the remaining CPU can process |
| 04:24.01 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar4687 (Miranda@ppp-188-174-5-187.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 04:27.40 | Imhothar | me too much Lua coding |
| 04:27.46 | Imhothar | I just used -- as comment in C++ |
| 04:27.57 | Noshei | lol |
| 04:28.12 | Noshei | I dont think that will work out very well |
| 04:37.51 | Noshei | Changelog update |
| 04:37.58 | Imhothar | seen it |
| 04:39.12 | Noshei | ah, no word on Command.Mail.Take ZorbaTHut |
| 07:35.49 | Noshei | is there a way to clear everything in a table that is after a specific key? |
| 07:36.37 | seebs | Well, not exactly. Among other things, except for numeric keys, "after" may not be meaningful. |
| 07:37.07 | seebs | For a numeric table, for i = #t, x, -1 do table.remove(t, i) end |
| 07:37.08 | Noshei | they are all numeric keys |
| 07:37.55 | Noshei | and x would be the last key you want to keep? |
| 07:38.57 | seebs | the last one you want to destroy. |
| 07:39.16 | seebs | Will only work if all those keys exist, so you might want to do if t[i] then table.remove(t, i) end in the middle. |
| 07:39.22 | seebs | And of course, you should localize table.remove. |
| 07:40.59 | Noshei | ok, noob moment here, not exactly sure what you mean by localize table.remove |
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| 07:44.38 | Noshei | Morning Wild |
| 07:49.42 | seebs | Noshei: "table" is a global by default, and referring to globals is expensive. |
| 07:49.46 | seebs | So if you do something like: |
| 07:49.49 | seebs | local tremove = table.remove |
| 07:50.00 | seebs | and then make lots of calls to tremove() instead of table.remove(), it's MUCH faster. |
| 07:50.40 | Noshei | ok, good to know |
| 07:52.53 | Wildtide | mornin' |
| 07:55.21 | Noshei | that worked perfectly seebs, thanks |
| 09:02.00 | Wildtide | oh dear... http://forums.riftgame.com/addon-api-development/323836-adios-amigos.html |
| 09:08.31 | Wildtide | ZorbaTHut: if i change the email address in my .toc file, do you need to enable it somehow on your servers, or will it just work? |
| 09:40.56 | *** join/#riftuidev Thorarin (thorarin@D57DA213.static.ziggozakelijk.nl) |
| 09:42.18 | Thorarin | Man, these performance warnings are a bit of pain :p |
| 09:42.39 | Thorarin | Especially when your PC is faster than most... |
| 09:43.20 | Noshei | I almost never get performance warning |
| 09:43.22 | Wildtide | yep, they are not proving to be the most popular addition to the API :) |
| 09:43.28 | Noshei | even in conquest |
| 09:44.17 | Noshei | and I run a decent amount of addons |
| 09:44.32 | Thorarin | Well, from what I understand, part of the problem is that the 10ms available time is SHARED between all addons dealing with a certain event |
| 09:44.54 | Thorarin | So even though I get the error, it may be some other crappy addon taking 90% of the time ;S |
| 09:45.01 | Noshei | currently yes, but ZorbaTHut has already said he will be changing that |
| 09:45.08 | Thorarin | Good :) |
| 09:45.13 | Noshei | yeah |
| 09:45.32 | Noshei | which makes all this crying about it even more pointless |
| 09:45.47 | Thorarin | In the daily report today I got performance warnings for handlers that take 0.6ms on my machine :( |
| 09:46.24 | Noshei | I think seebs said it right with: 3. I continue to be a big fan of Trion's policy of trying things and then fixing them rather than waiting until they're sure nothing could go wrong. |
| 09:47.04 | Thorarin | As long as you are able to fix things relatively quickly.. |
| 09:47.35 | Noshei | this is an example of that, trion tried something new here (I don't think many if any other games with addons have done a watchdog system), found out that it didn't work out how they wanted and are now changing it |
| 09:48.17 | Thorarin | Are they planning on loosening the restriction on the short term? |
| 09:48.18 | Noshei | I was easily say the addon API has the quickest turnaround overall in fixing problems |
| 09:48.36 | Thorarin | So people don't get popups and OMGWTFBBQ without reading them |
| 09:48.51 | Noshei | ZorbaTHut also mentioned upping the warning threshhold to 0.2 seconds |
| 09:49.37 | Wildtide | i dunno. i honestly think Trion should have turned it off immediately, as soon as they saw how badly it was irritating players. irritating addon devs is one thing, but the pop-up messages are annoying everyone |
| 09:49.50 | Thorarin | I haven't done all that much addon development for RIFT yet, but he seems to do a decent job :> |
| 09:49.59 | Noshei | and I know there has been talk of not showing the users the Watchdog warnings, only if watchdog actually halts an addon |
| 09:50.49 | Noshei | yeah zorba is a single person who has built the API form scratch and who will most likely be the only person working on it for a while |
| 09:51.00 | Wildtide | he does, Zorba's great. this is the first thing that has been implemented that i've disagreed with |
| 09:51.16 | Noshei | but even with that immense work load he still makes time to chat in here and on the forums all the time |
| 09:52.04 | Thorarin | I think it's just as important as actually making an API, if you want to have support from a developer community |
| 09:53.29 | Wildtide | yep. i wonder if Naifu would have acted differently if he'd popped in here and actually talked to Zorba - communication is really important |
| 09:55.32 | Noshei | yeah thats why I basically said, fuck you for crying when there is no need to, in my reply to his post |
| 09:56.19 | Thorarin | Hmm well, guess I have a bit of a puzzle to solve tonight... "How does one magically get a space character into an ability ID that has been stored in SavedVariables" |
| 09:56.42 | Noshei | I understand his pain, pretty much everyone in here does, but to go and pull a childish stunt like he has is just stupid and disrespectful to anyone that uses his addons |
| 09:56.52 | Thorarin | I added code that converts old IDs to new IDs, but the code is failing for some people because of the unexpected spaces :S |
| 09:57.12 | Thorarin | I guess I missed something :P |
| 09:57.21 | Noshei | I wouldn't worrk about converting the ID's |
| 09:57.34 | Noshei | any Inspect for an ability should include both ID's |
| 10:00.23 | Thorarin | Inspect.Ability.New returns two fields, but they are both the new ID, iirc |
| 10:01.09 | Thorarin | In any case, conversion will be impossible when the legacy IDs are removed, that's why I actively did them now |
| 10:01.44 | Thorarin | Seems it somehow backfired... although I have no idea how often this error occurred ofc. 12% of what :) |
| 10:02.53 | Thorarin | Anyway, just learned about this channel so decided to drop in |
| 10:02.55 | Noshei | Inspect.Ability.* will give you both ID's |
| 10:03.11 | Thorarin | I need to get back to work that pays :P |
| 10:03.33 | Thorarin | Or first lunch actually |
| 10:03.35 | Thorarin | bbl |
| 10:04.20 | Wildtide | cya later Thorarin :) |
| 10:15.04 | *** join/#riftuidev Toludin (62cf9cb8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.207.156.184) |
| 10:18.16 | Noshei | well now that I have ranted my fair bit on Naifu's post I think I will call it a night and go get some sleep |
| 10:18.30 | Toludin | goodnight |
| 10:21.35 | Wildtide | nn Nosh |
| 10:22.22 | Wildtide | btw, what was that about rewards? are the devs finally getting pet Zorbas? ;) |
| 10:27.57 | Toludin | i would expect it to be a bug companion, actually |
| 10:28.00 | Toludin | never can get rid of those |
| 10:29.41 | Noshei | when I was talking to zorba about it on here he basically said the most likely thing would be a title as it is the easiest and least expensive thing for them to implement |
| 11:12.15 | Wildtide | i'm kinda torn on it tbh. the criteria would have to be very carefully set, so that people didn't start banging out any old crap just to get a title |
| 11:15.50 | Wildtide | for example, i do it just for nerdy fun, and Gadgets doesn't have a massive installed user base, so i probably wouldn't/shouldn't qualify |
| 11:16.25 | Wildtide | but people like Safe/Naifu/Baanano/Imho (and others) probably do deserve something to say "good job guys" |
| 11:27.36 | Toludin | i'd be worried on the criteria, too - and the drama surrounding who does and doesn't "qualify" for the recognition. otherwise, it'd be a great perk for those of you who have put in lots of time and energy to bettering the experience for all of us |
| 11:38.39 | Wildtide | oh, Imho, grats on the sticky :D |
| 11:39.04 | Wildtide | that would have made more sense if you were in the channel, obviously... |
| 11:39.13 | Wildtide | *bangs head on desk* |
| 12:12.10 | ZorbaTHut | noshei, looked into the mail thing - it turns out that the built-in API can retrieve multiple items from a single mail message simultaneously, and that isn't exposed to the addon API |
| 12:12.24 | ZorbaTHut | I'll add that to the todo list but it may be a while :) |
| 12:16.47 | Thorarin | +1 for Watchdog improvements first :P |
| 12:17.25 | ZorbaTHut | yeah I think there's some obvious higher priority issues first ;) |
| 12:18.56 | Thorarin | Last night I was like "Yeah! Got my event handler down from 0.09ms to 0.07ms", today I get a performance warnoing error for it ;) |
| 12:20.22 | Thorarin | needs to go and buy a slower PC... |
| 12:34.16 | Wildtide | 0.07ms? that's pretty darned unlucky if that's running at doggy time |
| 12:36.28 | Wildtide | ZorbaTHut: with regard to the 'per handler' change, while it does need to happen, is there not the danger that the watchdog just won't achieve what it was created for in the first place? iow, 10 addons, all taking 0.1s, and you're at 1 FPS |
| 12:37.48 | Wildtide | admittedly that's somewhat unlikely |
| 12:38.05 | ZorbaTHut | wildtide, technically, yes, but most of the time it's not a bunch of addons just barely staying within the limits, it's one addon totally destroying performance |
| 12:38.38 | Wildtide | ah, that makes sense then |
| 12:39.55 | ZorbaTHut | this is also going to introduce a few ways to avoid the watchdog entirely, but in most of those cases you'd be doing all the work necessary to make your addon perform properly, and then intentionally making things slow. which is not behavior I feel any particular need to worry about :V |
| 12:40.18 | Wildtide | lol, you'd like to think not |
| 12:40.27 | ZorbaTHut | in this case I'm concerned about mistakes and laziness, not straight-up maliciousness :) |
| 12:44.13 | Wildtide | are you at work or home btw? i feel bad asking stuff when i then discover you're not actually at work |
| 12:44.27 | ZorbaTHut | it's extremely rare that I IRC from work, it's too distracting |
| 12:44.41 | Wildtide | oh? in that case, you're far too keen! |
| 12:44.49 | ZorbaTHut | don't worry about home though, if I wasn't interested in chatting when I was home, I wouldn't be in the channel :V |
| 12:44.56 | Wildtide | good point :) |
| 12:47.41 | Wildtide | odd question then... do you gather data on which addons and versions users have installed? i was quite surprised by the error mails as i never imagined errors went up to the server |
| 12:49.53 | Wildtide | was thinking a % breakdown of which versions of an author's addons were out there would be quite nice to see. thinking about it though, there is nothing we can actually do about it, so probably not really relevant to anything. would still be interesting to see though |
| 12:51.10 | ZorbaTHut | we do, in the sense that the data is collected and then mostly ignored. I've thought about the same thing - it'd be nice to show people just how long obsolete addon versions stick around - but it's never felt like a good use of time |
| 12:51.29 | Wildtide | no, i can see that :) |
| 12:51.41 | ZorbaTHut | but, yeah, it turns out people just don't update :) |
| 12:59.33 | Wildtide | tell you what would be a really nice API call: Command.Addon.GetLatestVersionTrionHaveSeen() |
| 12:59.42 | Wildtide | obv not quite that name for it :) |
| 13:00.05 | ZorbaTHut | I've thought about that, but you just know people would troll it by editing the .toc to pretend to be VERSION ONE BILLION |
| 13:00.13 | Wildtide | assuming people don't habitually edit .toc files, that would let... *stops* |
| 13:00.18 | ZorbaTHut | :V |
| 13:01.03 | ZorbaTHut | a chunk of my formative programming years were involved with competitive programming, so whenever someone comes up with a code idea, my first thought is "okay how can I break this" |
| 13:01.11 | ZorbaTHut | it comes in handy for API design :) |
| 13:02.07 | Wildtide | ah, so you've got a white hat :) |
| 13:03.01 | Wildtide | maybe a version that has been seen 50 times or something... but anyway, that would be so low on the list right now |
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| 13:24.24 | Baanano | hi |
| 13:24.57 | Wildtide | ello Baanano |
| 13:27.09 | Baanano | too much drama lately |
| 13:27.56 | Wildtide | there has been, yes |
| 13:29.55 | Wildtide | tbh, where a certain addon dev is concerned, i've seen it coming, and i think this was just the excuse he needed to stop |
| 13:33.07 | Wildtide | http://forums.riftgame.com/addon-api-development/313039-addon-nkthings-unit-frame-addon-10.html#post3806657 |
| 13:33.15 | Baanano | there are ways to complain and ways to stop |
| 13:33.36 | Wildtide | ^-- 3rd response in that post told me "it's getting too much" |
| 13:34.36 | Baanano | i'm very vocal about things i don't like, as the watchdog itself, but usually don't post them in the forum |
| 13:36.09 | Baanano | probably my broken english is hard to understand both here and in the forum |
| 13:36.41 | Wildtide | i'm about the same on here and on the forum. i might be a bit more vocal here if it wasn't copied to the web every day |
| 13:36.51 | Wildtide | don't be daft, your English is perfect |
| 13:38.57 | ZorbaTHut | yeah I honestly did not realize english wasn't a native language of yours until just now |
| 13:39.31 | ZorbaTHut | I obviously don't know what it's like spoken, but typed, nobody will ever guess until you tell them |
| 13:39.38 | Baanano | i need to search a lot of words in the dictionary before writing a sentence, or to understand you :P i'm searching what does daft mean right now :P |
| 13:39.53 | Wildtide | lol. silly, stupid, etc |
| 13:41.01 | Wildtide | tbh, i try to force myself to say what i think. i don't like confrontation or saying things i think might offend people, so get accused of always sitting on the fence. for example, i find it quite difficult to point out what i see as flaws in the watchdog knowing Zorba will read them |
| 13:41.18 | ZorbaTHut | I think daft has an undertone of "nuts" also, but, yeah, close enough |
| 13:43.21 | Baanano | thank you then, i thought it was bad :P |
| 13:45.49 | ZorbaTHut | wildtide, I'm fine with having flaws pointed out, really, I just ask that people take some effort to understand why it's set up the way it is. MMO addon environments are really weird beasts because it's a large product with extremely high standards, letting in a bunch of addon developers who generally have lower quality standards |
| 13:45.49 | ZorbaTHut | (and I'm saying this as an ex-addon-developer, I definitely had more tolerance for bugs than Blizzard did) |
| 13:46.05 | ZorbaTHut | I think a lot of people don't understand that, and expect that the addon environment will be just as open as, say, a C++ compiler woudl be. |
| 13:53.01 | Wildtide | yep, i can understand that. i totally understand the need for the performance monitor for example, and i honestly can't suggest a better approach for it than what you're already doing (which is no great surprise, you obv know what's going on under the covers far better than we do) |
| 13:54.22 | Wildtide | but i just have concerns that it will never be possible to stop the dialog popping up due to factors beyond an addon author's control |
| 13:55.06 | Wildtide | and it's just a little too catastrophic looking when it does |
| 13:58.00 | Wildtide | *dialogue ... curse you Americans and your lazy spelling! it's rubbing off on me! |
| 14:00.52 | ZorbaTHut | I think the per-event change will help enormously. We'll see what happens from there. |
| 14:01.08 | ZorbaTHut | I'm also making Inspect.System.Watchdog() more reliable and more able to be used for tuning purposes. |
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| 14:02.26 | *** join/#riftuidev Cidan (~cidan@conspiracy/developer/Cidan) |
| 14:03.03 | Wildtide | that could help a lot i think, especially for things like Imho's Async lib |
| 14:03.44 | Wildtide | oooh... actually. going per addon, offloading texture loading to a library may be exactly the wrong thing to do |
| 14:04.12 | ZorbaTHut | it'll result in fewer cycles being used per frame to load textures, but I think the point of imho's async lib is to load the textures more intelligently |
| 14:05.20 | Baanano | why would it be bad? |
| 14:06.36 | *** join/#riftuidev Sunspots (~Sunspots@c213-89-208-104.bredband.comhem.se) |
| 14:07.46 | Wildtide | it's not bad, it's doing the right thing (intelligently spreading texture loads across multiple frames). but when addons are monitored individually, there may be a greater risk of LibAsync tripping the watchdog, than if addons each loaded their own textures |
| 14:07.58 | Baanano | i'm thinking about splitting my addon in two, one with the core functionality (scanner, posting queue...) and another with the UI |
| 14:08.31 | Wildtide | it all depends on how cleverly Imho can use the Inspect() call to make sure he doesn't go over the threshold i guess |
| 14:08.33 | ZorbaTHut | note that when I say "monitored individually", that means, at least for now, that each individual event handler will have its own timer |
| 14:08.45 | ZorbaTHut | two event handlers owned by the same addon won't draw from the same pool, they'll both have their own timeslice available. |
| 14:09.20 | Wildtide | LibAsync uses System.Update.End() to do it's work, so all texture loading will happen in that one handler |
| 14:10.11 | Wildtide | still, it's the right thing to do. we don't want to abuse the system by cramming as much as we're allowed to get away with into one frame |
| 14:10.55 | Baanano | libasync allows us to "outsource" texture loading, if he starts using inspect.system.watchdog to avoid performance warnings i believe it will be the best library contribution so far |
| 14:11.04 | Wildtide | yep, i agree |
| 14:11.51 | Wildtide | i think i've spotted the exploit you mentioned Zorba :) |
| 14:12.23 | ZorbaTHut | I know of several, actually ;) but I'm just not concerned about them - iit takes more effort to do it wrong than it does to just do it right |
| 14:12.29 | Wildtide | just register for the same event 20 times, and do 0.09s of work in each handler |
| 14:12.42 | ZorbaTHut | Yep, that'll be totally doable in the new system. |
| 14:13.03 | Wildtide | yes, it would be a really daft thing to do (gonna use that word all the time now :)) |
| 14:13.14 | Baanano | zorba, that's both good and bad news, on the one hand we'll be able to exploit it, on the other you're implying that won't be ever like that, so if we abuse it it'll come back in the future to haunt us |
| 14:13.43 | ZorbaTHut | Once you've got the infrastructure working to run your code spread over twenty event calls, there's no reason you wouldn't just spread it over twenty frames, so . . . not too worried about people doing that :) |
| 14:13.57 | ZorbaTHut | baanano, it's possible, but to be honest I don't think it'll end up abused |
| 14:14.19 | Baanano | if you give us the opportunity to abuse something, we will :P because it's easier to abuse than to do things the right way |
| 14:14.22 | Wildtide | *psst* he really doesn't know us does he? <evil grin> |
| 14:15.02 | ZorbaTHut | I don't know if you know the phrase "keeping honest people honest", but that's sort of what this is - just giving you a poke in the right direction so you can't be lazy. Most of you will, given the choice of doing it right or doing it wrong, do it right. I just have to keep you from taking the "doing it wrong, but very easily" option ;) |
| 14:16.15 | Baanano | i was testing yesterday the idea to juggle items in system.update.begin (splitting and rejoining stacks), to get 0.2 seconds per frame through item.slot and item.update |
| 14:16.53 | ZorbaTHut | *laugh* another advantage to the new system is that you won't have to do that sort of insanity :V |
| 14:17.35 | Wildtide | what sort of ETA are we looking at? (i know you probably can't say) |
| 14:18.27 | ZorbaTHut | depends on how soon a push happens. probably the first hotfix that shows up Wednesday or later, but that has a reasonably large range |
| 14:18.49 | Wildtide | not that i mind. atm, i can cheerfully blame other addons for my performance warnings. as soon as this goes in, i've got nowhere to hide :( |
| 14:19.13 | Thorarin | <ZorbaTHut> I'm also making Inspect.System.Watchdog() more reliable and more able to be used for tuning purposes. |
| 14:19.16 | Thorarin | Awesome :) |
| 14:20.41 | Wildtide | d'oh, i'm thinking of the watchdog as a server side thing, but ofc it's not. was forgetting it'd need a client push |
| 14:20.55 | Thorarin | It could be it doesn't work as I thought it would, but it didn't seem to return useful information for me when I tried it |
| 14:21.09 | Thorarin | It returned 0 even though there was no performance warning |
| 14:21.25 | ZorbaTHut | our clients and servers are quite tightly linked anyway, it's quite rare that we push one without pushing the other |
| 14:21.58 | ZorbaTHut | thorarin, 0 technically means "an error may be triggered at any moment" |
| 14:22.07 | ZorbaTHut | it doesn't guarantee it *will* happen, just that it might. |
| 14:22.27 | ZorbaTHut | it might take some extra time for the watchdog thread to notice and do something. |
| 14:23.03 | Wildtide | the watchdog thread? *rewrites his mental picture of how it works* |
| 14:23.14 | ZorbaTHut | unrelated: few things are sillier than a kitten falling off your lap while trying to attack his own tail. |
| 14:23.21 | Wildtide | lol :D |
| 14:23.49 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, there's a separate thread. There are ways to rig up luajit to do a watchdog-style thing in a single thread, but they'd be ruinous for performance |
| 14:24.08 | ZorbaTHut | there's basically a single dedicated thread whose job is to wake up once in a while and check if the addon system needs to be interrupted. |
| 14:25.21 | Wildtide | in that case, making that Inspect call accurate just became about three orders of magnitude more difficult in my head :) |
| 14:25.41 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, it's basically impossible. But it *should* be accurate in the sense that it's a worst-case. |
| 14:25.57 | ZorbaTHut | "you may have more time than this, but all I can promise is X seconds" |
| 14:26.12 | Wildtide | that's all it needs really |
| 14:26.37 | Wildtide | it's not like we can predict how long the code we're about to run will take accurately anyway :) |
| 14:26.52 | Wildtide | will the inspect be expensive? |
| 14:26.54 | ZorbaTHut | true :) ah, the fun of a jit |
| 14:27.04 | Baanano | my gf's cat goes crazy when she turns on the epilator, it attacks everything, even shadows |
| 14:27.20 | ZorbaTHut | it's cheap for an inspect. the documentation framework takes a little extra CPU, I've been meaning to put a little effort into optimization |
| 14:27.30 | ZorbaTHut | but it's basically just checking a few numbers and returning. |
| 14:28.03 | Wildtide | ok, so Imho could potentially poll it after loading each texture? |
| 14:28.22 | ZorbaTHut | Yep. I think that'd be reasonable, it'll be orders of magnitude faster than loading a texture. |
| 14:28.41 | Baanano | it'd be funny inspect.system.watchdog triggered the watchdog |
| 14:28.44 | Thorarin | Okay, that's not how I envisioned the watchdog would work at all either :) |
| 14:29.11 | ZorbaTHut | to be honest I've wanted to implement something like that since day one, but it took me about half a year to figure out how to do it :V |
| 14:29.33 | ZorbaTHut | turned out the key is that lua_hook is permitted to be called from a different thread |
| 14:29.49 | ZorbaTHut | and entertainingly, I managed to find a bug in luajit by using that feature. |
| 14:29.57 | Thorarin | I figured you could just be a native code wrapper around indivual every dispatch it does as it walks through the event table :P |
| 14:30.14 | Thorarin | Erhm, half rewriting sentences bad. |
| 14:30.26 | Thorarin | I know what I mean :> |
| 14:30.42 | ZorbaTHut | http://repo.or.cz/w/luajit-2.0.git/commit/68ca796d28f616f38a376ed1bb1a3de29d1b1200 all thanks to rift |
| 14:30.50 | Wildtide | Thorarin: that's pretty much what i thought too |
| 14:31.18 | ZorbaTHut | thor, that wouldn't actually interrupt an out-of-control infinite loop, and it also wouldn't give particularly good info on where the slowdown was :) |
| 14:31.59 | Thorarin | I guess all it would say "somewhere in your event handler with name x" |
| 14:32.27 | Wildtide | sigh. Zorba does have a habit of making me feel like a proper code n00b |
| 14:33.04 | ZorbaTHut | you pick up some neat tricks when you've been coding for over 3/4 of your life |
| 14:33.22 | Wildtide | sadly, i have been doing that too |
| 14:33.34 | Baanano | yeah zorba you make me feel dumb too :_ |
| 14:33.38 | ZorbaTHut | I'm sure there's stuff you know better than I do :P |
| 14:33.52 | Wildtide | but most of my later coding has been web based information systems in C#, so not very hardcode |
| 14:33.55 | Wildtide | *hardcore |
| 14:34.16 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, I think I've touched C# twice ever |
| 14:34.31 | ZorbaTHut | (one of which was admittedly the code that sends out the daily addon error reports) |
| 14:35.28 | Wildtide | i have to say, as a language, i really like it. the stuff i generally get to do in it isn't earth shatteringly interesting, but the language is very well thought out |
| 14:35.31 | Thorarin | Out of control infinite loops can still crash rift atm :S |
| 14:35.42 | Thorarin | Correction, stack overflow can... |
| 14:35.53 | ZorbaTHut | that's been my conclusion too - it fills a niche I generally don't have any interest in filling, but it's a very competently built language |
| 14:36.02 | ZorbaTHut | thorarin, hrm, is it reliable? |
| 14:36.26 | Thorarin | I did it by mistake last night... infinitely recursing method in an event handler I believe |
| 14:36.45 | Thorarin | The code was never checked in and my memory is... not |
| 14:37.03 | Thorarin | At the time I was in a dungeon and just wanted to fix it asap ;> |
| 14:37.11 | Baanano | i actually prefer c# over java, and linq is awesome |
| 14:38.03 | Thorarin | C# has some pretty cool things :) |
| 14:38.16 | Thorarin | Java has been standing still too long |
| 14:39.43 | ZorbaTHut | I've never really been a fan of java, they made some rather restrictive choices early on |
| 14:39.52 | Thorarin | LINQ is pretty awesome, until you have to debug it. Then it's slightly less awesome and usually requires changing the code to figure it out :) |
| 14:39.54 | ZorbaTHut | the whole multichar character thing never should have happened |
| 14:40.25 | Thorarin | Well, to be fair that's the same in .NET |
| 14:40.47 | Thorarin | But you have a Byte type at least |
| 14:41.15 | Thorarin | So, when are we getting a .NET API for Rift addons? ;-) |
| 14:41.48 | ZorbaTHut | probably not gonna happen :V |
| 14:42.13 | Baanano | yeah debugging linq is a pain, being able to recompile code on the fly was a feature i loved of visual studio, it's a pity you can't do that if you use linq in a method :( |
| 14:42.17 | Thorarin | One big downside would be addons being closed source, sort of |
| 14:42.42 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, I rather like the enforced code readability of lua. it works well for an addon ecosystem |
| 14:44.01 | Thorarin | Lua isn't so bad as scripting languages go, although I do prefer more structured, type-safe languages |
| 14:44.28 | Thorarin | And arrays should be 0-based ofc ;) |
| 14:44.29 | Wildtide | i've grown to like lua a lot tbh. on first sight, i was horrified by the apparent lack of OO, but once you understand it, it's really powerful |
| 14:44.58 | Thorarin | Hmm, the OO-emulation is a bit clunky imo |
| 14:45.24 | Thorarin | But I'm no expert... last time I did serious addon development was with the Auctioneer suite |
| 14:45.26 | ZorbaTHut | I've been heavily influenced by the lua philosophy, to be honest. my api design now focuses quite seriously on providing a small number of powerful primitives that people can assemble into larger structures on their own |
| 14:45.32 | ZorbaTHut | it's a great way to make big platforms with a small team |
| 14:45.38 | Thorarin | Just now getting into it a bit again :) |
| 14:45.42 | Wildtide | you wrote Auctioneer? |
| 14:45.58 | Thorarin | Auctioneer was a team effort, started by Norganna |
| 14:46.10 | Wildtide | ah yeah, that name rings a bell |
| 14:46.16 | Thorarin | I was on the team for about a year or so |
| 14:46.38 | Wildtide | didn't realise i was surrounded by WoW addon celebrities ;) |
| 14:46.39 | Thorarin | Same problem as with rift reallly |
| 14:46.55 | Thorarin | "Your addon has a bug!" "Here is the source code, fix it yourself!" :) |
| 14:47.26 | Thorarin | I stopped playing WoW after Vanilla... |
| 14:48.08 | Thorarin | If you remember when Auctioneer went to loading lazily when you visit the Auction house, I thought that up (with the Stubby addon) |
| 14:48.48 | Baanano | wow thorarin, hope you write a decent ah addon here in rift |
| 14:49.09 | Thorarin | Most of the Stubby implementation was Norganna himself though.. we were talking about it in IRC and I went to bed... |
| 14:49.22 | Thorarin | He was in Australia and when I woke up again it was mostly done, lol |
| 14:50.06 | Wildtide | hehe |
| 14:50.06 | Thorarin | Well, RIFT addons are very different from what they used to be like in WoW |
| 14:50.43 | Thorarin | In WoW you could replace just about any function call with your own junk :P |
| 14:51.02 | Thorarin | They quickly came to realise that was a mistake, I'm guessing |
| 14:51.50 | Thorarin | I remember being able to spam 1 button and automatically churning out the most optimal tanking rotation :P |
| 14:52.35 | Thorarin | Automatically interrupting spells that were interruptable and were important enough to be interrupted while at it |
| 14:52.42 | Wildtide | was WoW's native UI always written as a giant Lua addon, or was that a later switch? |
| 14:53.24 | Thorarin | Sort of.. but like I said I stopped playing ages ago, so no idea how it is now |
| 14:53.42 | Thorarin | Just that in the beginning hooking "events" was a big mess |
| 14:54.20 | Thorarin | And unhooking was not really doable until the libraries came |
| 14:55.17 | Thorarin | Still, it was fun to work on something so many people use |
| 14:56.08 | Thorarin | I've written a lot of hobby stuff, most of it never sees the light of day |
| 14:56.53 | Thorarin | Once wrote a Battle.net chat client/bot that had about 8000 users. I think besides Auctioneer that's as far as I've gotten :P |
| 15:01.55 | Wildtide | sorry, got sidetracked by work, which is just inconvenient! :) |
| 15:03.18 | Wildtide | i didn't do a lot of WoW addon development myself. i remember having a play, but i actually can;t remember what i played with |
| 15:08.22 | ZorbaTHut | man, command.system.strict() works really well |
| 15:08.35 | ZorbaTHut | if you guys don't fix your addons before 1.10 I'm going to be annoyed :P |
| 15:09.52 | Wildtide | you can't get annoyed, Imho will win our bet if you do! |
| 15:11.14 | Thorarin | I tried the strict mode once, I think I'm mostly done updating to 1.10-proof |
| 15:11.44 | Thorarin | Except for the ability-ID update code, it intentionally calls the old Inspect stuff |
| 15:13.29 | Thorarin | Actually, does Inspect.Ability.New.Detail work with old ability IDs? |
| 15:13.50 | Thorarin | I thought it didn't, but may have remembered wrong |
| 15:14.38 | ZorbaTHut | it does |
| 15:14.48 | Wildtide | what's the scope on Strict()? all loaded addons? |
| 15:14.53 | Thorarin | Oh, well... I should be able to change that then |
| 15:14.58 | ZorbaTHut | Inspect.Ability.New.* is actually identical code from Inspect.Ability.* |
| 15:15.05 | Thorarin | Huh? |
| 15:15.10 | ZorbaTHut | wildtide, yep. don't distribute an addon with that enabled ;) |
| 15:15.26 | Wildtide | that's what i was just thinking :) |
| 15:15.28 | Thorarin | When I tried it, it was returning NEW IDs for both .id and .idNew |
| 15:15.29 | ZorbaTHut | actually, they're not totally identical now that I think about it. Detail is, though |
| 15:16.00 | ZorbaTHut | I think they both may do that |
| 15:16.05 | Thorarin | Or is .id always the same as the input? |
| 15:16.15 | ZorbaTHut | ah, yeah, .id is always the same as the input |
| 15:16.22 | ZorbaTHut | that's just a standard across the addon system |
| 15:16.23 | Thorarin | Ah, that explains it |
| 15:16.59 | Thorarin | I think it's global scope yes Wildtide |
| 15:17.15 | Thorarin | So to test properly you'd have to disable other addons but your own |
| 15:18.23 | Thorarin | I'm a little annoyed now that I have to go babysit tonight... want to continue working on performance optimizations and refactoring :) |
| 15:21.24 | Wildtide | so, the safest way may be a GoStrict addon, as an optional predecessor to my addon. that way i can never inadvertently distribute it |
| 15:21.47 | Wildtide | and it'll go strict before mine loads, which is what i need |
| 15:21.53 | ZorbaTHut | wildtide, good idea, yeah :) |
| 15:22.31 | Thorarin | Pretty handy... |
| 15:23.02 | Wildtide | i don't want to be the muppet that releases the addon that breaks everyone elses :) |
| 15:23.03 | Thorarin | I usually mess around in source code so much that I review all changes before committing, so it would never end up being distributed :P |
| 15:23.47 | Thorarin | print statement debugging ftl :< |
| 15:25.48 | Thorarin | This Watchdog thing has made me cave and I've decided to leave in the profiling code however |
| 15:26.08 | Thorarin | It's not a big deal with LibPerfORate though |
| 15:26.49 | Wildtide | nice name :) |
| 15:26.51 | Thorarin | It's nice to be able to enable it at any time |
| 15:27.08 | Thorarin | I think that library has been around for ages |
| 15:27.12 | Wildtide | is that a released library? |
| 15:27.14 | Thorarin | But yeah :) |
| 15:27.23 | Thorarin | It's not mine |
| 15:27.23 | Wildtide | oh, i'll have to go find it. never heard of it tbh |
| 15:27.34 | Thorarin | http://www.riftui.com/downloads/info135-LibPerfORate.html |
| 15:27.54 | Wildtide | ahh, it's Seebs. shoulda guessed with that name :) |
| 15:28.18 | Thorarin | myEventHandler = perf.hook("myEventHandler", "myEventHandler") or smt :) |
| 15:28.40 | Thorarin | Then you can get the data with /perf -a |
| 15:29.47 | Wildtide | looks pretty clever, gonna have to give it a go |
| 15:29.54 | Thorarin | Actually, that code only works if you don't use locals |
| 15:30.02 | Thorarin | myAddon.myEventhandler = ... |
| 15:30.34 | Thorarin | It's not perfect, but it gets the job done |
| 15:30.46 | Wildtide | yep |
| 15:31.01 | Thorarin | Gives you some idea on how often an event is triggered, and how long it takes on average to handle it |
| 15:31.24 | Wildtide | that sounds incredibly useful for watchdog stuff, which is what i'm working on atm |
| 15:31.51 | Thorarin | I just type /kalert profile and go :) |
| 15:34.28 | Thorarin | I'm a bit worried that some people are hitting the 10ms though... I can't imagine people having half a dozen addons dealing with the same events |
| 15:35.25 | ZorbaTHut | 100ms, btw, not 10ms :) |
| 15:42.00 | Wildtide | i'd imagine, based on the law of addons, most performance warnings are hitting the correct addon |
| 15:42.10 | Wildtide | law of addons? law of averages even |
| 15:43.29 | Wildtide | i know my performance warnings are generally in buff handling code, which is exactly where i'd expect to hit problems |
| 15:43.46 | Wildtide | so i'm not blaming other addons for that |
| 15:44.37 | Wildtide | quite possibly when someone joins a 20 man raid and all those buffs roll in, i can imagine there's quite a hefty spike and a *lot* of buffs to display |
| 15:45.52 | Wildtide | hmm... actually... it's just occurred to me that my raid frames only show debuffs. so now i don't understand it again. oh well :) |
| 15:49.02 | Wildtide | tricky for me to test, cos my guild has gone from 20 man raiding to not being able to field a 10 man in the last couple of months |
| 16:00.13 | bctrainers | So, I woke up this morning to read this... http://forums.riftgame.com/addon-api-development/323836-adios-amigos.html |
| 16:00.19 | bctrainers | What exactly did i just read? :| |
| 16:01.09 | bctrainers | is he done with making / updating addons? or is he done because he got nothing in return? :/ |
| 16:09.43 | Thorarin | Various reasons, I guess |
| 16:09.57 | Thorarin | Sorry, had to run earlier :) |
| 16:10.25 | bctrainers | to each their own, i guess |
| 16:10.48 | bctrainers | Zorba knows as well as myself, him and I have been with rift since 2010 or so :P |
| 16:11.37 | bctrainers | Can't say much for him, but i've had to pay for my sub, i have rec'd absolutely no free time from trion for being a grass-roots fansite owner, nor hositng irc dev chats over the years. |
| 16:11.54 | bctrainers | Nor do i expect to. :p |
| 16:16.37 | bctrainers | oh well, back to lurking |
| 16:17.03 | Thorarin | Well, it wouldn't hurt... but I couldn't care less about a few euros more or less |
| 16:33.00 | bctrainers | on an unrelated note, I do not think the tier two or three section of the conquest perks are working while in conquest. :x |
| 16:33.41 | bctrainers | Guild mate was getting the exact same favor as i, they are a few ten thousand into the CQ perks, where as i am at the max :/ |
| 16:52.08 | seebs | Huh. I am confused, because I totally thought Zorba had agreed that the watchdog needed improvement. |
| 16:54.41 | seebs | So the entire premise seems wrong. |
| 17:15.02 | Torhal|work | Holy QQ |
| 17:15.08 | Torhal|work | That guy needs a reality check. |
| 17:15.18 | Torhal|work | Or to try writing AddOns for WoW. |
| 17:15.18 | Torhal|work | :D |
| 17:43.42 | *** join/#riftuidev Imhothar (Miranda@ppp-188-174-5-187.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 18:39.16 | Imhothar | so Naifu was a German, too? Did anyone know ... |
| 18:49.32 | *** join/#riftuidev sylvanaar_work (~sylvanaar@pdpc/supporter/active/sylvanaar) |
| 19:13.08 | *** join/#riftuidev Wildtide (~Wildtide@host109-152-140-150.range109-152.btcentralplus.com) |
| 21:40.14 | Noshei | Imhothar, I believe you are correct. |
| 21:41.02 | Imhothar | his post says he wrote some German guides, so either German, Aussi or Swiss |
| 21:52.40 | Imhothar | not much going on today, guess the watchdog rage has vented |
| 21:52.55 | Noshei | yeah |
| 21:53.38 | Noshei | so Naifu sent me a PM asking for my e-mail so he could send me the source for all of his addons, and saying he was ok with continued development |
| 21:56.22 | Imhothar | wonder why he never joind here |
| 21:57.15 | Imhothar | if he hosted the stuff on curse, he could simply open the projects for cloning |
| 21:57.26 | Imhothar | then we can fork from it |
| 21:58.42 | Noshei | he completely deleted everything off curse and riftui |
| 21:58.58 | Noshei | I did see him join on here once, for about 2 minutes and that was it |
| 21:58.59 | Imhothar | sounds more and more like a rage quit |
| 21:59.06 | Noshei | yeah |
| 21:59.26 | Imhothar | did he use git? |
| 21:59.39 | Imhothar | that would at least give us the history |
| 22:00.00 | Imhothar | tho I'm sure the project is still on curse/riftui it would probably just need an admin to restore it |
| 22:00.00 | *** join/#riftuidev Solsis00 (~Dad@108-226-48-242.lightspeed.fyvlar.sbcglobal.net) |
| 22:00.01 | Noshei | he used SVN |
| 22:00.46 | Noshei | I think the repo's on Riftui are still there, not sure on curse, you your probably right it could be restored |
| 22:04.16 | Imhothar | now if I didn't always forget which of the people in here run which site |
| 22:04.35 | Noshei | dolby and seebs are riftui |
| 22:04.47 | Noshei | I think Kaelten is curse |
| 22:04.48 | seebs | I don't run Riftui, I just mod there. |
| 22:07.36 | Imhothar | do you have the permissions/capabilities to check whether he used a SVN repo there actively? |
| 22:08.12 | Noshei | he did, I might even still have permissions for the nkGenie one |
| 22:12.22 | *** join/#riftuidev Sunspots (~Sunspots@c213-89-208-104.bredband.comhem.se) |
| 22:47.50 | seebs | I don't think I know how. |
| 22:50.02 | Cairenn | Yes, they are all still on the RiftUI SVN |
| 22:56.31 | Cairenn | Snag them fast if you want them, because in all good conscious I need to tell Naifu that they are still there and find out if I need to pull them as well. |
| 23:41.10 | *** join/#riftuidev Sunspots (~Sunspots@c213-89-208-104.bredband.comhem.se) |
| 23:59.31 | Baanano | see you tomorrow |